0:00

just get something out there, you know,

0:02

minimum viable product, have it like stick

0:04

against the wall. And I think that's

0:06

well-meaning advice. I think it can work

0:09

for a lot of people, but I

0:11

definitely feel like for a consumer brand,

0:13

you really do have to create the

0:16

positioning and the world that your product

0:18

will sit in. Hey, what's

0:20

up everyone? It's Schwang Esther

0:22

Chan, your host here at

0:24

Shopify Masters. You're a companion

0:26

for starting and building a

0:28

business. Have you ever wondered

0:30

why intimate care products used

0:32

to look like they belong

0:34

in a medical supply closet?

0:36

Today's guests asked this very

0:38

question before creating luxury products

0:40

for an area that nobody

0:42

wanted to talk about. Meet

0:44

Laura Schubert and Lillian Tong

0:46

childhood friends turned co-founders of

0:48

fur. They turned a $10,000

0:51

investment into a multi-million dollar

0:53

beauty empire. By daring to

0:55

go where no brand has

0:57

gone before. Since 2015, fur

0:59

has been pioneering the intimate

1:01

skin care category. Yes, that's

1:03

right, fur sells grooming products

1:05

for all over, including your

1:07

pubic hair. From getting ghosted

1:09

by manufacturers to landing on

1:12

the shelves of Alta Beauty,

1:14

they are here to share

1:16

how they built a taboo

1:18

breaking brand all while remaining

1:20

self-funded. Laura and Lilian, welcome

1:22

to the show. Thank you

1:24

for having us. Thank you.

1:26

Laura, Lillian, so great to

1:28

have you here and very

1:30

excited to talk about fur,

1:32

because back in 2015, when

1:34

you first started this company,

1:37

this was a white space

1:39

and we weren't talking about

1:41

pubic hair in public. So

1:43

what made you confident to

1:45

think that consumers were ready

1:47

for this conversation and

1:49

these products? For sure. Well,

1:51

my, I mean, my journey with first

1:53

started back in 2013, 2014. I was

1:56

talking to my sister actually about pubic

1:58

hair, body hair, what were you doing,

2:00

what were other people doing? And we just,

2:02

I really found that like people weren't talking

2:04

about it. Like they were really saying either,

2:07

you know, I remove all my hair below

2:09

the eyebrows, but there weren't any resources. And

2:11

I just didn't really understand why, you know,

2:13

again, like I have short hair, some people

2:15

have long hair, some people have shorter hair,

2:18

you dye your hair, like. body, you know,

2:20

your head hair is somewhere where people can

2:22

express themselves differently and everything is clean and

2:24

acceptable. And then I felt like once you

2:26

went on from head hair, you know, there

2:29

really was this sense of stigma, the sense

2:31

of taboo, the sense of, you know, lack

2:33

of cleanliness potentially with hair. And so I

2:35

just really, you know, I didn't know why

2:38

I wanted products to deal with my hair

2:40

to, you know, handle any ingrowns or any,

2:42

you know, issues that may come up with

2:44

hair removal if you choose to remove your

2:46

hair and I just really I didn't feel

2:49

like there were products out there they were

2:51

addressing this concern I didn't feel like the

2:53

necessary conversations were happening and you know I

2:55

wanted to create a place to have them

2:57

and so that's when I called Lillian my

3:00

best from seventh grade who was already

3:02

a beauty marketer and you know told

3:04

her about this idea and Lillian what about

3:06

this idea that got you really excited?

3:08

Yeah I think it really comes from personal

3:11

need, which is what Laura is saying, is

3:13

like, you know, she was looking for pubic

3:15

hair care and at that time pubic hair

3:17

care meant only one thing, which

3:19

is removing it. So she came

3:21

to me in 2014 and I

3:23

thought I was in beauty and

3:25

we all know booty is super

3:27

competitive. There's so much product out

3:30

there. Everyone's chasing the next consumer

3:32

and I was extremely skeptical about

3:34

this idea of creating a brand

3:36

that targeted taking care of your

3:38

body hair. To me, that felt

3:40

like... another step another product another

3:42

dollar that you have to spend

3:44

and also just convincing the consumer

3:46

that you know this is another thing

3:48

that they're going to have to tackle but

3:50

Laura being you know an entrepreneur through and

3:52

through it was like yeah I see your

3:54

point but let's keep trying like she just

3:57

kept going at it and came to me

3:59

one holiday party at her house with

4:01

a formula of our now iconic fur

4:03

oil. And she's like, just try it.

4:05

Like you love product, just try it.

4:07

And I was like, OK, fine, I'll

4:09

try it. And what I discovered

4:11

is it was a beautiful product through

4:14

and through. I just felt like the

4:16

oil did what she said it did.

4:18

It was something that had legs. And

4:20

on top of that, we were also

4:22

starting to talk about this idea with

4:24

more people, not just the two of

4:26

us. When we talked about pubic hair

4:28

care, it was really interesting, because people

4:30

either really loved it and got it

4:32

right away, or they were like me

4:34

and said, that doesn't make any sense.

4:36

There was nothing in the middle. And I

4:38

was a marketer, I love that. I love

4:40

the fact that there was an immediate

4:42

reaction, whether it was positive or negative,

4:44

that's okay. At least you have something

4:46

to start with, and... You know, we had

4:48

something to start with in 2015.

4:50

Yeah, it sounded like it was

4:52

polarizing, but I think to your

4:54

point, when you can elicit those

4:56

emotions, it means that you have

4:59

something there and people are actually

5:01

kind of intrigued and excited. So

5:03

what were your first steps to

5:05

take this formula that you were

5:07

tinkering with and actually try to

5:09

scale it and also share this

5:11

idea with the public? Well, so

5:13

even before us of this little blue

5:15

bottle that I... gave to Lily on my

5:18

holiday party, even that was sort of part

5:20

of the, you know, journey. I mean, I

5:22

actually started with a list of about 50

5:24

cosmetic chemists that I found on Google, and

5:26

I called all of them up, and I

5:28

pitched my idea, and I said, you know,

5:30

I'm going to create a pubic hair oil,

5:32

and a lot of them hung up on

5:35

me, and they thought it was a prank

5:37

call, they thought I wasn't serious, but some

5:39

people picked the phone back up, and they

5:41

said, actually you're right no one is doing

5:43

this people having grown hairs everyone's either growing

5:45

or removing their body hair you know this

5:47

isn't this isn't that crazy and so and

5:49

so one of the people I called said

5:51

you know our minimum order quantities are far

5:54

too high for what you're looking for but

5:56

you should call this person and that's actually

5:58

how I was connected with the to develop the

6:00

formula with me and sort of who

6:02

still works with us today. And so

6:04

it's really about, you know, just calling

6:06

these 50 folks and, you know, seeing,

6:08

okay, if you can't help me, who

6:10

can? And so this chemist who worked

6:12

with us actually helped us to create

6:14

the first thousand for oils and stubble

6:16

creams. We actually launched with two products

6:18

that we still carry in our line

6:20

today. And we made a thousand of

6:23

them and we stored them in my

6:25

house and we fulfilled them by hand

6:27

out of Lillian's house because Lillian lived

6:29

across the street from the post office. And

6:31

so that is sort of how we got off to

6:33

the races. And you know what's also interesting though

6:35

is getting up. Laura highlights something because

6:37

oftentimes when we first started people were

6:39

like, oh, did you just like mix

6:42

up a bunch of oils in your

6:44

kitchen together and like just try it?

6:46

When we created this company, we were

6:48

like, if we are going to tackle

6:50

the stigma around pubic hair care and

6:53

create this category, we have to do

6:55

it in a way that is, you know, really

6:57

quality, really legitimate and done with excellence.

6:59

And so, you know, even when it

7:01

was just an idea of Laura, I...

7:03

I'm not involved. She was calling the

7:05

chemists. You know, we've always had a

7:07

chemist involved. We've always been abiding by

7:10

EU standards for beauty products. We've

7:12

always kept clean ingredients. We've always

7:14

done dermatological and gynecological testing because

7:16

when you're going to introduce this

7:18

category and have a consumer trust

7:21

this product, we felt like it

7:23

was very important to invest our

7:25

time and money to ensure that

7:27

this was a trustworthy product from

7:30

start to finish. you laid a

7:32

really solid foundation and also I

7:34

love the story of persistence and

7:37

not giving up when people are

7:39

hanging up on you. I think

7:41

that's such an easy point for

7:44

people to turn back around. And

7:46

I think what's special here is

7:49

you self-funded that initial production and

7:51

for remains to be self-funded to

7:53

this day, which is really incredible.

7:56

On the financial side, how did

7:58

you set yourself up where you're able

8:00

to create your own runway and

8:02

build and grow at a pace

8:04

that you're comfortable with? Well, part

8:07

of it is, I mean, I guess

8:09

that initial sort of strategy in the

8:11

initial way we did this, did sort

8:13

of set the tone for the way

8:15

we operate to this, which is, you

8:17

know, we set it up with, again,

8:19

a professional chemist, someone who could, you

8:21

know, scale, you know, to the moon,

8:23

but we made a thousand units. And

8:25

we said, you know what, let's set

8:27

up a website a website ourselves. And

8:29

then, you know, we tried to sell

8:31

those units and we said, you know,

8:34

if we can't sell these units, well,

8:36

then there's nothing there. But, you know,

8:38

we sold them quickly. And so we're

8:40

really all about test and learn and

8:42

about, you know, what can we, being

8:44

super professional, being in a position to

8:47

scale if it works, but also, you

8:49

know, folding if it's not the thing

8:51

either. So I think we've just always

8:53

been extremely disciplined about test and

8:55

learn and capital. trains you to

8:58

be profitable, to your point. If

9:00

there's no demand, then you can't

9:02

have an injection of VC or

9:04

other investors to try to elicit

9:06

people to try your product. So

9:08

I think that's such an interesting

9:10

and healthy way to kind of

9:12

kickstart a new company like this.

9:14

It also forces discipline prioritization,

9:16

especially at the start. So in our

9:19

first year, we spent money, like literally

9:21

the cash in our bank account that

9:23

we put in. We spent it on

9:25

the 2000 product floora talked about. We

9:28

spent it on all that testing that

9:30

we talked about. And the only other

9:32

thing we spent it on was PR.

9:34

Like to Laura's point, we were fulfilling

9:36

it by hand, I was building

9:38

the shopify site, you know, like

9:40

Laura was sourcing packaging. We spent

9:42

it on PR because that just

9:45

goes back to the whole thing

9:47

about legitimizing a beauty category, but

9:49

that was it. It was ruthless

9:51

prioritization on the

9:53

expenses and still to this day. It's

9:56

expenses and it's time. you know, PR was

9:58

a great investment for us at the start.

10:00

because we didn't want to be a

10:02

joke. We were introducing products and creating

10:04

a taboo category, and we knew, you

10:07

know, we had one chance to get

10:09

it right. And so, you know, we

10:11

really thought by working with a PR

10:14

agent by talking to, you know, beauty

10:16

editors who would give us a shot,

10:18

that that would be really important in

10:20

launching the category, getting it on the

10:23

right foot, and being taken seriously when

10:25

we were doing something that no one

10:27

had done before. So PR had a

10:30

big impact in first success and the

10:32

landscape has changed a lot in the

10:34

last decade, but for new founders who

10:37

want to invest in it today, what's

10:39

her advice? I think PR has not

10:41

narrowed, it has expanded. So that's

10:43

a good and a bad thing, I

10:46

guess, is the best way to

10:48

put it and being strategic about what

10:50

PR really means, right? So for us... We

10:52

were like, we need to be legitimate in

10:55

beauty. So we were hyper focused on beauty

10:57

editors, like beauty editors, that was it. There

10:59

was no business. We weren't really looking

11:01

for business press because we weren't looking

11:03

for fundraise. We really weren't looking for

11:05

like brand awareness in terms of influencers

11:07

because again, we were looking for that

11:10

expert angle. And again, that was also.

11:12

not as much of the rise of

11:14

the content creator landscape. So I would

11:17

say now that it's wider, you still

11:19

have, of course, your beauty editors, maybe

11:21

they're a little bit more online, maybe

11:23

they blur the lines a little bit

11:26

more between influencer and expert, is to

11:28

figure out what element you're going for

11:30

within the PR landscape, and then go

11:32

after it, because you can't go after

11:35

all of it, and... They don't necessarily want

11:37

the same things like if it's

11:39

gifting if it's testing if it's

11:41

eventing if it's a press release

11:43

if it whatever that is if it's

11:46

you know like those bigger roundups You

11:48

really figure out like what you're

11:50

looking for with your press strategy.

11:53

I think it's very hard to

11:55

talk about anything taboo. So how

11:57

did you balance talking about pubic

11:59

hair? while still building a brand

12:01

that is very elegant and

12:03

sophisticated. What approaches did you

12:06

take to develop your brand

12:08

identity? It was actually a

12:10

little bit of a debate. So the

12:12

way you think about for body hair

12:14

and pubic hair is we could have

12:16

taken two different directions. You could have

12:19

taken the rebellious in your face, body

12:21

hair bushes back, scream it, but that

12:23

also is really not in line with

12:25

Laura and my philosophy on... what fur

12:27

should be, how people should think about

12:29

body hair, and also how we want

12:31

our business to be run. Like we're

12:34

here for the long haul. If you

12:36

do that, that's very of the moment.

12:38

That's really in your face, and it's

12:40

not something that's timeless. The other tack

12:42

to take was much is exactly

12:44

what we've done it for, which

12:46

is keep it elegant, keep it

12:48

inviting, so that people will have

12:50

the conversation, that something, whatever you're

12:52

talking about body hair, is a

12:54

moment of pride. but internal pride

12:57

and not sort of bragging and

12:59

showing off in people's faces. That

13:01

being said, from a PR perspective

13:03

and even sort of a brand

13:05

awareness perspective, you're not going to

13:08

have that hard hitting in your

13:10

face splash as immediately because it's

13:12

just, you know, people are attracted

13:14

to bright shiny loud objects. And

13:16

that's not what we wanted to

13:19

do for far. We wanted to

13:21

make sure that everything was just...

13:23

beautifully curated, well-designed, inside and out,

13:25

so that you would feel proud of

13:27

whatever you're doing for your body here. I

13:29

think also on brand identity, I mean,

13:32

we were very inspired by YSL and

13:34

Chanel, again, this idea of timelessness, and

13:36

also... Back to this idea of trust,

13:38

which I think has always really motivated

13:40

us, creating a safe space and elegant

13:42

space where people could examine and reframe

13:45

their own thoughts about what can be

13:47

a shameful topic for some people or

13:49

maybe people have had negative experiences with

13:51

body hair in the past. And so

13:53

we really wanted to, again, make this

13:55

safe elevated space, which is a serious

13:58

topic, this is a serious product. We're

14:00

still fun, but we can, you know, we

14:02

can talk about it, you know, and like

14:04

we can again bring light to this

14:06

issue. So we really wanted to do

14:08

that through the identity. I'd also say

14:11

at the time, and this is a

14:13

little less true today, I think than

14:15

it was 10 years ago, but there

14:17

sort of was this thought that, oh,

14:20

just get something out there, you know,

14:22

minimum viable product, have it like stick

14:24

against the wall. And I think that's

14:26

well-meaning advice. you really do have to

14:28

create the positioning and the world that

14:31

your product will sit in or it's

14:33

not giving it a fair shake. And

14:35

so I think that's something that we spend

14:37

almost a year, you know, creating the packaging,

14:39

creating the world. Our packaging hasn't changed that

14:42

much in the last 10 years. And so

14:44

I really think at least for us and

14:46

for what we were doing, I'm really glad

14:49

that we did invest that time in creating

14:51

the brand world and brand identity up front.

14:53

That's really interesting to hear that

14:55

it took a year, but... the

14:57

packaging remained very much similar to

14:59

how you started. And I have

15:02

to say like the packaging to

15:04

this day still looks timeless and

15:06

modern and it doesn't feel dated

15:08

at all. So what were some

15:10

of the exercises you were doing

15:12

in that year to ensure that

15:14

you're nailing down on the packaging

15:17

and the branding because I feel

15:19

like there must have been like

15:21

a lot of debate going back

15:23

and forth on finalizing the

15:25

design. I think this is one that's

15:28

going to be trust your

15:30

instincts and your gut. So there

15:32

was a lot. Well, everything from

15:34

the name down to the packaging

15:36

down to the brand, I mean, all

15:38

of that. It was almost like

15:40

when we knew we knew. I don't

15:42

know how many names, for example,

15:45

for fur we went through before

15:47

the moment we got fur. We're

15:49

like, yeah, that makes so much

15:51

sense. Like, it's beautiful. It's intersection

15:54

between hair and skin. when we

15:56

knew we knew. Other things, we

15:58

would have sort of... You know, logo

16:00

and font and color and packaging

16:02

shapes and sizes, all that stuff.

16:04

And it's so subjective that I

16:07

think Laura and I felt that we

16:09

needed to ask more people and people

16:11

who had done it longer. And Laura,

16:13

I don't know if Laura, you remember

16:15

this, but like so many people

16:17

told us that that iconic sphere

16:19

that is our number one seller,

16:21

Fertoil, was a terrible idea. Industry

16:25

veterans always told us it was a bad

16:27

idea. But we spent the time, we lived

16:29

with it in our bathroom, we lived with

16:31

it holding it, taking photos of it, and

16:33

it just felt right. And it's fine now,

16:35

like that we spent so much time listening

16:37

to other people. But at the end of

16:40

the day, we went with our gun. We're

16:42

like, no, this is actually the world. We

16:44

wanted to be like a cool-toned gold. Like

16:46

it's got to feel like a vintage fragrance.

16:48

It's got to be an iconic object that

16:50

you're proud to hold in your hand. And

16:52

at the same time, we could only make

16:54

one thousand. So we couldn't have everything in

16:57

the world for everything we wanted. Like,

16:59

you know, the box has to look

17:01

a certain way. We have to shoot

17:03

our campaign a certain way. We don't

17:05

have endless budget, but we still

17:07

made sure, like everything we did and we

17:09

did and we did and we chose. And

17:11

sometimes the conventional wisdom and beauty

17:13

is you want a really tall

17:15

skinny bottle because of people had

17:17

with, again, the packaging that we

17:19

have to this day. One is

17:21

that we used a sphere. So

17:23

actually just, you know, geometrically, spheres

17:25

look smaller than they are. And

17:27

so the fill in our bottle

17:30

is actually quite large compared to

17:32

the appearance. And so, again, conventional

17:34

wisdom and beauty is you want

17:36

a really tall skinny bottle because

17:38

it will look like you're selling

17:40

more product. new category, this is a

17:42

special, you know, ritual, and it just really

17:44

felt right to us, but that was definitely,

17:46

you know, not what a beauty expert would

17:49

tell you. And the other thing that we

17:51

think is even more, well, I don't know

17:53

if it's even more important, I love our

17:55

sphere, but, you know, we put on the

17:58

initial box for pubic hair and skin. and

18:00

that remains on the box for oil

18:02

to this day. And again, very well

18:04

meaning people, Beauty Insider said, you know,

18:06

even major retailers said, we love the

18:08

product, we love you, you know, we

18:10

really want to carry this, take pubic

18:12

off the front of the box and

18:15

we will do so. And we thought

18:17

really carefully about that as a self-funded

18:19

business, and we did not do it.

18:21

Because then, you know, you destroy the

18:23

mission, you destroy, you know, everything we're

18:25

fighting for here to de-stigmatize pubic hair

18:27

and skin and body hair. And so

18:29

we didn't do either of those

18:31

things. And I would say that

18:34

both of those recommendations were extremely

18:36

well-meaning and, you know, definitely the

18:38

right, the right things to recommend.

18:41

Really standing behind the stance you've

18:43

taken and I think that also

18:45

translates, you know, moving away from

18:48

your brand. You're also sticking to

18:50

that with every single message you

18:52

do have through marketing to make

18:55

it that it's a marketing moment,

18:57

but also it's starting conversations and

19:00

making it approachable while eliciting

19:02

the feeling of a premium

19:04

product. So there's a bunch

19:06

of things that you're balancing

19:08

through marketing. How are you

19:10

thinking about social channels and

19:12

marketing today? Through 10 years in

19:14

business, it's changed a lot. Thinking about

19:16

our initial investment in PR, and you're

19:18

totally right that PR has changed a

19:21

lot in the last decade, you know,

19:23

the rise of Instagram, the rise of

19:25

Tiktok, the ban of Tiktok, I don't

19:28

know where things are going next. So

19:30

I think a lot of it is,

19:32

again, this test and learn mentality and

19:35

prioritization, I think is important and will

19:37

be increasingly important in marketing because I

19:39

think we're at a pivotal moment right

19:42

now. You literally took the words out of

19:44

my mouth. I was going to say test and

19:46

learn. I mean, you have to be where your

19:48

eyeballs are going to be and your consumer is

19:50

going to be, but you don't know what's going

19:52

to stick on the different channels that you're presenting

19:54

yourself to. And so it's just test and

19:56

learn and being nimble and agile and also like

19:58

you can't, to that point. Like

20:02

people are like oh for has really high

20:04

brand standards. Yeah, we do But you also

20:06

can't be beholden to them and handcuff

20:08

yourself and your company and your

20:11

team with overly strict brand guidelines

20:13

Because again different channels have different

20:15

needs and you have to have

20:17

the fleet of freedom and flexibility

20:20

to test and learn I love that

20:22

because I think testing and iterating

20:24

is core to how fur has

20:27

grown, whether it's product or staying

20:29

active on social channels or marketing.

20:31

What other areas we haven't talked

20:33

about that you've tested and iterated

20:36

that has really helped to change

20:38

the business? I think our channel

20:40

strategy, so of course our Shopify

20:43

D2C site is you know the

20:45

home of fur, however we also

20:47

operate for professionals website, so for

20:49

you know professional estiticians. also Shopify,

20:52

and then we also have great retail

20:54

partnerships that we've grown over the years.

20:56

And again, I think that comes out

20:58

of being self-funded and, you know, needing

21:00

to get dollars in the door from

21:02

day one and work with the different

21:04

retailers. And so I think that prepared

21:06

us to, again, when we think about

21:08

different social media channels, we think about

21:10

different ways the brand can show up,

21:12

and it's similar for our different retail

21:15

channels as well, including our D2C site,

21:17

which is where, again, we really want

21:19

our calling card to remain. And I

21:21

love you mentioned that there's also

21:23

this retail component because first started

21:25

off very grassroots door to door

21:28

going to different spas and actually

21:30

pitching the products and talking to

21:32

hesitations. What's the advice there when

21:34

you're early on in your business

21:37

journey and you actually have to

21:39

like talk to potential customers and

21:41

pitch your idea? I'd say it's like

21:44

listened. Your biggest brand advocates may

21:46

not be who you think they're

21:48

going to be. Because that's what

21:50

we figured out really early on when

21:52

we first launched. We thought we were

21:55

just just, we were a consumer focused

21:57

brand and it would be, you know,

21:59

brand. comes brand communications going

22:01

out and captivating a consumer

22:04

audience, you know, like a

22:06

one-to-one exchange. Turns out when

22:09

we first went out, the people

22:11

who were most receptive are

22:13

these professional estheticians who offer

22:15

waxing services in an upscale

22:17

salon. Whether they're a one-person

22:19

business or a slightly bigger

22:22

than that, they were the

22:24

ones that actually... understood the

22:26

importance of fighting ingroses, taking care of

22:28

your body hair as it grows back

22:31

or for whatever you're keeping. And they

22:33

became the biggest advocates. Not only were

22:35

they consumers, but they were the biggest

22:38

advocates because they're the ones that have

22:40

the time and the motivation to speak

22:42

to their clients and, you know, magnify the

22:44

effect of what our brand story is

22:46

about. And so that wasn't learning

22:48

for us, but the realization of that

22:50

and then embracing of that over the last

22:53

10 years has been. really important to

22:55

the growth. So I would say, sort of

22:57

just like paying attention to where your

22:59

biggest brand fans really are. And it

23:01

might be multiple sources. And our

23:04

first customer service email ever was actually

23:06

from a professional waxer who said, you

23:08

know, who had actually the chain of

23:10

salons, a really successful business woman, she

23:13

said, finally, you know, I've been working

23:15

so hard to make this amazing upscale

23:17

experience for my customers for the last

23:19

10 years, and here's a brand. valorizes

23:22

creates a safe space for conversations about

23:24

body hair and that that's what I've

23:26

been trying to do too. And so

23:28

that's sort of how we found them

23:31

and they found us. Yeah, and that's amazing

23:33

to hear because it started off

23:35

in those one-to-one relationships that grew

23:37

over the years and I feel

23:39

like that also kind of allows

23:41

you to grow in your omnitannel

23:44

presence and you've grown to end

23:46

up on the shelves of Alta

23:48

and also work with Goop. So

23:50

talk to us about developing those

23:52

bigger relationships with retailers. You can't

23:54

just make products, you have to have

23:57

a brand in order to partner with

23:59

these larger... retailers. Products, I mean,

24:01

anyone could make a product

24:03

and that's actually I think that's

24:05

not the story, that's not what

24:08

you're selling, and that's how you're

24:10

helping each other with larger retailers,

24:12

right? Like, they're going to help

24:14

you with larger reach and validity, but

24:17

then your brand has to help them

24:19

in a certain capacity. So what

24:21

your brand stands for before you

24:23

can like really engage in those

24:25

conversations, you have to have real

24:27

clarity as to who your consumer is,

24:29

what makes your brand different and

24:32

how that's going to either bring

24:34

in a new customer for these

24:36

retailers or just, you know, expand

24:39

their basket for their consumer.

24:41

The second thing is, when

24:43

you're starting with these big,

24:45

these much bigger retailers as

24:47

a small bootstrapped individual brand

24:49

run by me and Laura, is

24:52

they are enormous and they, you, as a company,

24:54

we as a company, when we,

24:56

started engaging with them, you have

24:58

to make sure you're like, you've

25:00

dotted your eyes and crossed your

25:03

t's for all the operational back-end

25:05

lifting things. It's not as easy as

25:07

just launching with them. And it's, you

25:10

know, there's a sliding scale of

25:12

that, right? Like, Whoop and Credo

25:14

versus Alta and Sepora, there's definitely

25:16

nuances to that. And also, it

25:18

launches one thing, but it is

25:20

a true partnership. And A, sometimes

25:22

that means saying no, which is

25:25

really hard. You know, as a

25:27

small brand, you know, we want

25:29

to do every opportunity, but, you

25:31

know, it's very expensive to work

25:33

with major retailers, and we try

25:35

to do everything we try to

25:37

do everything we can take advantage

25:39

of every opportunity, and sometimes we

25:41

just have to say no, because,

25:44

you know, it's just too expensive

25:46

and we can't. to store because

25:48

to Lillian's point, it's one thing to

25:50

get on that shelf and it's a

25:52

very different thing to stay on that

25:54

shelf. And has there been like pitching

25:57

or like things you've learned from the

25:59

early days of? working with spas and

26:01

estititions that you carry towards pitching

26:03

bigger retailers or a vice of

26:05

just like maintaining and growing with

26:08

those relationships over the years? Maybe

26:10

smaller business owners like in the

26:12

estitian space, they're so on the

26:14

cutting edge of like what's beauty.

26:16

They really care. They're so knowledgeable.

26:18

They care about the ingredients. They

26:20

care about what's new and they're

26:23

really like sort of trend movement predictors.

26:25

I'd say when they're talking to us

26:27

about what products they want to see

26:29

or you know their interest in for

26:31

when it first launched like they they know

26:33

because they live in a day in a day out and

26:35

it was almost like a so that's great

26:38

information so then when we want to

26:40

go bigger or larger or products that

26:42

they're thinking about like you know there's

26:44

usually something there that we can

26:46

then use to go bigger and wider. Oh I

26:48

think I think well we'll only uncover this one

26:51

I think but but I would just say

26:53

again persistence persistence you know you know. Every

26:55

know is not yet I always say and

26:57

you know we have pitched a lot of

26:59

these retailers personally or team pitches them

27:02

now and you know with I think

27:04

any retailer big or small or you

27:06

know you get a new buyer or

27:08

there's a new you know person in

27:10

corporate there's it's sort of always about

27:13

pitching and always about trying to build

27:15

that rapport and you know polite persistence

27:17

I think you know as everything in sales

27:19

so. And one more thing we need

27:22

to talk about is the fact that

27:24

you don't have an internal tech team,

27:26

you actually rely on an array of

27:28

Shopify apps. Talk to us about that

27:31

experience and how it's affected your business.

27:33

Yeah, so we've never had an internal

27:35

tech team. I mean, from the day

27:37

I built that for Shopify site, which

27:40

of course, no longer I can know

27:42

what or do, but we still keep

27:44

things really nimble and I think that

27:46

just goes back to our earlier theme

27:48

of testing and learning. I mean, the

27:51

whole idea of being able to, you

27:53

know. want to test something on our site

27:55

and being able to find an app to

27:57

do that without having to do any custom

27:59

code. or building anything like that, like

28:01

you don't even know if what

28:03

you're testing is going to work.

28:05

So investing in something custom is

28:08

just really not a great ROI on time

28:10

and money. And so, you know, an example

28:12

is like how we do our quiz. You

28:14

know, we're like, you know, that's a good

28:16

test, but and people told us we can

28:19

build you a custom quiz. And again,

28:21

Laura and I always consider that,

28:23

but we're like, you know what, there's

28:25

got to be plenty of people who

28:27

have figured this out already. We can

28:30

do it within Shopify. So

28:32

let's just do it. And

28:34

I think, you know, that's one

28:36

of the big things on our

28:38

site. Like, nothing is custom. It's

28:40

all based off of a theme. And

28:42

we're sort of trying apps on

28:45

subscribing from apps. Yeah,

28:47

making sure to keep the, that's important

28:49

too actually. Yeah, you don't want your

28:51

Martec, you don't want your marketing tech

28:53

stack to be like enormous, you also

28:56

don't want to slow down your site

28:58

too much. So you're like, you know,

29:00

like you try the things and you

29:02

don't want to have 50 apps plugged

29:05

in either that you're no longer using.

29:07

So you got to just being on

29:09

it, but it makes it easy enough

29:11

to see in a quick snapshot what

29:14

you've. Well, again, I mean, thinking about

29:16

being self-funded and thinking about prioritization,

29:18

that that was always how we

29:20

viewed, you know, incorporating Shopify and

29:22

using Shopify as a partner. is

29:24

that our business is really about

29:26

de-stigmatizing pubic hair and body hair

29:28

and getting our message out there

29:30

and our brand out there. It's

29:32

not about web development. And so

29:34

if we're doing web development, again,

29:36

we're spending precious time and resources

29:39

on web development, we're not doing

29:41

what we're actually here to do.

29:43

And so, again, in the spirit

29:45

of prioritization, it's been really important to

29:47

us to have Shopify as a partner to

29:49

not spend time on our website. And

29:51

then the other important arm of

29:54

the business is having customers and

29:56

different people actually engage within the

29:58

community and build. that community

30:01

to grow together to

30:03

talk about taboos. So

30:06

what's her advice there

30:08

for creating engaging content

30:11

that's inviting, that's

30:13

entertaining, and that's

30:15

talking about topics that

30:18

often don't get talked

30:20

about? I mean, I think doing

30:22

in a way that's light-hearted,

30:25

not too serious, but never

30:28

mean, goes a long way. It's

30:30

too easy to make it a joke

30:32

or to shame someone who has no

30:34

hair, someone who does have hair.

30:36

Everything we do, we've done with

30:39

sort of open conversation.

30:41

And with that over time, you

30:43

sort of see how that

30:45

fosters that community. Because when

30:48

something has been posted negatively

30:50

against Fur, we don't have

30:52

to be the brand that comes

30:54

in and is like pointing out

30:56

why that would, you know. is sort

30:59

of not nice or, you know,

31:01

it's judgmental. The fur community

31:03

will come in with the understanding

31:05

of like, why is anyone shaming

31:07

anyone about, you know, a skin

31:10

condition or amount of hair or

31:12

a clothing choice? It's because we've,

31:14

I mean, not we, but like

31:16

we in the community have laid

31:19

the groundwork over the past

31:21

10 years and it becomes its

31:23

own, a self-fulfilling brand

31:25

story and community. And

31:27

to the both of you, I

31:29

think it's also so cool that

31:32

you were friends in seventh grade,

31:34

you've gone through school, and now

31:36

business. What's your advice for friends

31:38

who are wanting to start a

31:40

business together? It's really hard, but

31:42

it's great. Sorry. Well, it's really

31:44

hard and stop. And so I

31:46

think being friends is not enough.

31:48

I think Lily and I had

31:50

a very special friend. We have

31:52

a very special friendship that was,

31:54

you know. conducive to this and could

31:57

withstand being business partners and I think a

31:59

lot of that is because we We

32:01

disagree. We disagree in a productive

32:03

way. And it's not personal. And

32:05

we both, you know, we both

32:07

really, really care about the brand

32:09

and want what's best for the

32:12

brand. And we, I think we're

32:14

very good about not letting, you

32:16

know, not making that, again, not

32:18

making that personal, not making it

32:20

about us. It's really about, you

32:22

know, what's best for the business.

32:24

And so it's really, and so

32:26

it's great that we're friends and

32:29

also, you know, you know, friends and

32:31

make sure that they, you think they'd

32:33

be an amazing partner, not just that

32:35

they'd be an amazing friend. That's right.

32:37

She is the only friend I would

32:39

go into business with, right? Like you

32:41

can have lots of friends, but how

32:43

many people would you actually partner with

32:45

in a business is a lot smaller. I

32:47

really like that mind frame

32:49

and I think different perspective

32:51

is really important, especially when

32:53

you're tackling a new category

32:55

and a category that is

32:57

dealing with something that's taboo.

32:59

So to close off the

33:01

show, I guess for anyone

33:03

who's trying to create something

33:05

new in an area that's

33:08

perhaps not talked about, what's

33:10

your advice there to tackle

33:12

something like that? Laura's point

33:14

about polite persistence? because you are

33:17

going to be climbing uphill, I

33:19

guess is the best way to

33:21

put it, consistently. So one, you

33:24

have to feel really passionate about

33:26

it because there is going to

33:28

be many days where people are

33:31

going to tell you this is

33:33

a terrible idea or it doesn't

33:36

make any sense. You just have

33:38

to keep going. And the

33:40

flip side of that is

33:42

polite persistence, then you have to

33:44

pivot. And I think that's something Laura and

33:46

I did when we first launched, which was

33:49

we put in our calendar a year later,

33:51

like revisit this idea honestly with each other

33:53

if it has legs. And like, what are

33:55

these things that are going to tell us

33:57

if it has legs? Because sure, it could

33:59

be like a whole. category that three

34:01

people are interested in. So we'll be

34:03

persistent for a year but you have

34:05

to also be honest. Yeah I'd say

34:07

also I mean one thing about honesty

34:10

is you also never you know you

34:12

never know where we'll take you so

34:14

When I think about polite persistence early

34:16

on in our journey with fur, we

34:18

were laughed at. We were laughed at

34:20

all the time. And we were kicked

34:22

out of stores. So I was actually

34:24

in a major department store and I

34:27

brought in fur and I pitched the

34:29

people there on the floor and they

34:31

pitched the people there on the floor

34:33

and they said, you know, ma'am, you're

34:35

just, you're going to have to leave

34:37

because we have rules about non-solicitation, but

34:39

this is great. now because Lilian is

34:42

definitely the one who's sort of like

34:44

holding the reins and you know making

34:46

sure you know is this really a

34:48

good idea for us and you know

34:50

I'm the one who's sort of like

34:52

let's keep going but there is there

34:55

is a balance between blind faith polite

34:57

persistence and also knowing when to fold

34:59

them so I don't know good luck

35:01

good look out there everyone yes

35:03

I mean we all need a

35:06

little bit of luck nowadays so

35:08

thank you both Laura and Lilian

35:10

for being here today It's great

35:12

to be on. Thank you. Thank

35:15

you. That's Laura Schubert and Lillian

35:17

Tong, co-founders of Fur. Our show

35:19

is produced by Gogo Zoger and

35:21

Megan Coyle. Our engineers are Miku

35:24

Betlum and Matt Shorts. Benjamin Gottlieb

35:26

is our managing producer and I'm

35:28

your host, Schwang Esther Chan. Come

35:30

back every Tuesday and Thursday to

35:33

catch brand new episodes of

35:35

Shopify Masters. And hey, if

35:37

you're still here, go share

35:39

this episode with another entrepreneur.

35:41

Thank you so much.