0:01

Everything to play for is taking on its

0:03

biggest challenge yet. We've had two parters, we've

0:05

even had three parters. This is a four

0:08

parter and the reason why we're giving it

0:10

four podcasts is it's probably the

0:12

greatest individual rivalry in Premier League history.

0:14

Yes, Arsene Wenger versus Alex Ferguson. We've

0:16

bitten off more than we can chew.

0:18

And what it reminds me of, I

0:20

saw a video on social media the

0:22

other day of a python having swallowed

0:24

a duvet. And the

0:27

vets were trying to get the duvet out of the

0:29

python. I thought that is like me and Colin having

0:31

to skip over if they can find

0:33

us because there's so much to talk

0:35

about when it comes to Wenger and

0:37

Ferguson. Doubles, trebles, pizza round the face,

0:39

it has everything. If you want to

0:41

listen to the podcast equivalent of a

0:43

python swallowing a duvet, follow everything to

0:45

play for on the OneDRE app or

0:47

wherever you get your podcasts. You can

0:49

binge seasons early and ad free right

0:51

now on OneDRE Plus. Hi,

0:59

it's Simon and Mark right here. Ever wondered

1:01

what it's like to run a police precinct

1:04

in one of Brooklyn's toughest districts while being

1:06

the only gay person of colour in your

1:08

entire organisation? Hang on

1:10

a second. Uh, I can't

1:12

say I have. That would be a no.

1:14

Well, me neither. But Captain Raymond Holt knows

1:17

and he's on the couch with Ben and

1:19

Ramon this week. Well, it sounds intriguing and

1:21

Ben and Ramon would love to hear your

1:23

reactions to the show, any theories and everything

1:25

else at shrink the box at sonymusic.com. Someone

1:28

just volunteered to be DJ B

1:30

day. Here at

1:32

the fun zone, we live by one

1:34

rule. When it's your birthday, you're always

1:36

cool. Parents and kids are all the

1:39

same. Watch as I

1:41

do a dance to your

1:43

name. Derek.

1:48

Derek. Derek. Ben

1:57

Bailey Smith here. And I'm the moment to

2:00

We are back in our happy play,

2:02

psycho-analyzing your favourite TV characters, so you

2:04

don't have to. Namon, how's it going?

2:07

Ready to get under the bonnet, into

2:09

the psyche of, or, you know, grapple

2:11

with the issues around today's client. Who

2:14

is... Captain

2:17

Holt from Brooklyn Nine-Nine. You heard him

2:19

there, actually. What was he doing there? Captain

2:22

Holt is on the witness protection programme

2:24

with his detective, Jake Peralta, who

2:27

actually, in that particular clip, is now

2:29

his manager at this theme park, Fun

2:31

World, where they've gone undercover, or

2:33

at least Captain Holt has. It's a mini

2:36

theme park in Florida. Jake loves going undercover,

2:38

right? That's it. It's one of his favourite

2:40

things. He's really struggling. Well,

2:42

Jake uses... Well, he's kind of got into

2:45

this superior position to get his own back

2:47

on Captain Holt, who, of course, takes it in

2:49

typical Holt fashion. Too

2:51

serious. Not necessarily reading social cues,

2:53

but with complete commitment, as you

2:55

can hear. It's one of those

2:57

castings that is reminiscent of Leslie

3:01

Nelson in Airplane or

3:03

Naked Gun, because before

3:06

Airplane, Leslie Nelson was this sort

3:08

of very serious... I think

3:11

he was maybe famous for a disaster movie

3:13

before Airplane, wasn't it? But a proper one.

3:15

Yeah, a proper one. Not a funny one.

3:17

A serious one. Made it such a sort

3:19

of left field casting. Genius casting. And this

3:21

is kind of similar, because before I watched

3:23

Brooklyn Nine-Nine, which is something my kids put

3:25

me onto, the only thing I knew from

3:27

was homicide life on the street. The

3:30

much mentioned homicide life on the street in this

3:32

parish, we talk about it a lot. We haven't

3:34

been there, though, have we? So important, which probably

3:37

should. It's a long time ago, but I think

3:39

it's worthy of going back to, but this is...

3:41

Yeah, I mean, this is the polar opposite of...

3:44

So he played serious policemen. Yeah, yeah.

3:46

In fact, I was such a big homicide

3:48

fan, and I was so into his character

3:50

on it, in particular, Andre Brauer,

3:52

that a movie came out called Glory, which

3:54

is about black soldiers. I think it made

3:56

me in the Civil War. Yeah,

3:59

that sounds familiar. interesting

34:00

point and I like the way he just

34:02

plainly bigs himself up there as well

34:05

in anybody else's hands. It would have

34:07

been something foolish or something silly. I

34:09

love that. I mean you are and

34:11

he's right. He's not

34:13

arguing with that. I

34:15

want to I want to dig into his

34:18

role as a leader a bit more after

34:20

the next break. Yeah. Actually did I say

34:22

with enough gravitas? Come on then. Okay.

34:25

Stay tuned to hear what gravitas really sounds

34:27

like. See you after the break. Hi,

34:39

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the

34:41

podcast, Dinners on Me. I

34:43

take some of my favorite people out to

34:45

dinner including, yes, my modern family co-stars like

34:47

Ed O'Neill. I had friends in organized crime.

34:49

Sophia Vergara. Well, why do you want to

34:52

be comfortable? Julie Bowen. I used to be

34:54

the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons. I was so

34:56

down bad for the middle of Miranda when

34:58

I was like eight. You can listen to

35:00

Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts.

35:04

Extra, extra. Your favorite anime is getting

35:06

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35:08

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35:11

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35:43

Greetings all. Oh,

35:46

we're not too high at the end. Greetings all.

35:49

There you go. Fact time. Now, before we get

35:51

into it again, what did you think about our suggestion

35:54

that Holt could be showing

35:57

characteristics of autism? If

36:00

you have any theories on it or any

36:02

experiences on yeah experiences even better It's like

36:04

send send your emails voice notes, whatever send

36:06

it to us shrink the box at Sony

36:09

music comm So in the

36:11

moment, why is work? Such

36:13

an important thing for hope and and and do you think

36:15

he's good at his job? No, I still want to hear

36:17

the answer to whether you'd like him as your boss, but

36:19

we'll come on to that I definitely would I know I

36:22

knew your answer was gonna be When

36:24

he wore these in the episode where it's the one

36:26

of the cold opens a brilliant cold opens in every

36:28

beginning So does that the bit

36:30

that happens before the credit? Yeah music. Yeah. Yeah,

36:32

so it'd be a little standalone gag Yeah, I'd

36:34

be linked to the story of oh, it doesn't

36:36

have to be okay. It'll just be anything There's

36:39

one way he just walks in dressed

36:41

as usual But he's wearing a felt

36:43

red bowler hat and the whole office

36:45

just goes silent and

36:48

he walks through not making eye contact with

36:50

anybody and He goes

36:52

in the office and they all turn to each

36:54

other and before they can start gossiping about it

36:56

He comes back out and he goes I tried

36:58

something and it didn't work That's

37:03

why I'd love to have him as my boss so it's

37:05

a safe space for him Yeah I also think he'd be

37:07

a brilliant boss work is Evidently

37:09

a haven for him and somewhere where

37:12

he can play actually and his playfulness

37:14

is inherent in the captain Holt character

37:17

But it's built in part around the fact that he is

37:20

unusually stiff and formal in Comparison

37:23

to a bunch of colleagues who

37:26

are the exact opposite, you know quite laid-back

37:29

Comfortable walks of life. They're a motley

37:31

crew Aren't they his group and he

37:33

sort of stands out as somewhat serious

37:35

and formal in the 21st century As

37:38

you say his arcane language And

37:41

I think this is a way of drawing

37:43

attention to his way of being different in

37:45

the world But there's no doubt that the

37:47

work for him and the workplace is hugely

37:49

important He works incredibly hard and he takes

37:52

his job as police captain Extremely

37:54

seriously and how much do

37:57

like other people's respect? How much

37:59

does that? mean to him. I mean

38:01

obviously it's hierarchical but there is a sort

38:03

of paternal element to his big time, the

38:06

way he acts with the people in his

38:08

team. I want to go back to the

38:10

Great Police getaway weekend. I have to and

38:12

you've mentioned Terry earlier, give honorary mention to

38:15

Terry at this point, his slippers and his

38:17

bum bag. For American listeners that is the

38:19

Fanny pack which features heavily in this episode.

38:21

I mean everything comes out of that bum

38:24

bag. I've never seen a bag like it.

38:26

He's got everything for every occasion. Cocktail

38:28

glass. The team are leaving Captain Holt

38:30

though out of the fun bits because

38:33

he just doesn't appear to find the

38:35

same things fun as them. But in

38:37

the end it is actually Captain Holt

38:39

who apologizes to Jake for ruining

38:41

their weekend away. So

38:43

listen. Before you say anything I want to say

38:46

I'm sorry. You're sorry? Wow.

38:48

I can't believe I almost made Terry do this. Apology

38:51

accepted. I was so eager to make up for all the

38:53

Josh and Ron I'd missed. I forgot this

38:55

getaway is really for you detectives. And

38:57

one of the things you're striving to get away from is

39:01

your captain. Yeah. I mean it's

39:03

nothing against you as a person. Everyone

39:05

loves you but you're our captain.

39:07

And normally we get really drunk and act

39:10

like crazy idiots and play stupid games where

39:12

we make fun of the boss. Which

39:14

is hard when the boss is present. Yeah.

39:17

But not impossible. He shows empathy there.

39:19

He could be a dick about it

39:21

there. Oh he could pull rank couldn't

39:24

he? Just pull rank. But she shows

39:26

that willingness to learn and to improve

39:28

and he shows that he's game. Goes

39:30

on all the stakeouts. He goes undercover

39:32

with Jake. At least by example.

39:35

And he goes all out for Rosa

39:37

when she gets locked up. Time

39:39

and time again we see how this relationship

39:42

with his colleagues and his team

39:44

is really important. And I think that's

39:46

one to do with connection. And his way of

39:48

nurturing relationships in the only way that he knows

39:50

how. And it is he and

39:52

Terry who go to help Rosa when she's in

39:54

prison like you say. And first they offer to

39:57

do anything she needs on

39:59

the outside. whilst she's banged

40:01

up. And of course, The

40:03

six of you. Rosa Mean Rosa. This

40:06

is an inordinately long list of

40:08

things that need doing, requests

40:10

including graphic emails for them to type up

40:12

and send to her lover in Argentina. But of

40:15

course, as always, Holt is going to take

40:17

this at face value. He's going to be very

40:19

conscientious. And even for him, he gets pushed

40:21

to the nth degree. And he has to

40:23

tell her that what she's asking is

40:25

too much, even for him,

40:28

with surprising consequences. Enough. I'm

40:31

sorry. I hate to say this, but

40:33

you're asking too much of us. Good.

40:36

Finally. What? Look, prison is awful.

40:38

I hate it here. I'm lonely. I'm scared. I just

40:41

want to be back home. And I was happy you

40:43

guys were coming to visit, but then you started calling

40:45

me by my first name and you kept making that

40:47

crazy crying face. I need normal interactions. So I need

40:49

you guys to fight with me and be honest with

40:51

me and tell me no when I am being unreasonable.

40:54

Okay. I promise. No more crying

40:56

face and no more pity, Diaz.

40:59

Thank you. I really thought the cable company

41:01

was going to break you. It did. But the

41:03

good news is you now have epics

41:05

plus some channel called Tunes with a

41:07

Z to your commitment.

41:10

At the end of the day, he's pretty

41:12

inspirational, isn't he? As a boss and

41:15

a human being. Oh, completely.

41:17

I completely agree. I read some

41:19

brilliant comments about the series from

41:22

those within the autism community as

41:24

well. They say he's beautifully

41:26

portrayed by Andre Brown, very true to

41:28

life for those who have autism. They

41:30

were highlighting the subtlety and difference and

41:33

how hard that can be to read

41:35

for more neurotypical communities. He's

41:37

accepted by his team and they say that they

41:40

love him. And I guess

41:42

it's also worth thinking about not only

41:44

the way Brower portrays Holt, as feeling

41:46

like he can only change things for

41:48

the better from inside the system, but

41:51

also how we could perhaps see his

41:53

refined tastes possibly as stereotypically belonging to

41:55

a privileged white domain opera, fine wine.

41:57

I mean, how much of that? is

42:00

a part of his assimilation into a culture

42:02

from which he might have been excluded. And

42:05

then ironically, that winds up in him feeling

42:07

more excluded again amongst his colleagues. And that

42:09

might be worth raising a question in

42:12

the therapy room about as well. Untangling intersectionality

42:14

is really complex. There are so many strands

42:16

to hold. And there will be lots we

42:18

miss as well due to our own biases

42:20

and prejudices. I'm not going to catch it

42:22

all. There is a beautiful moment with Rosa

42:24

where he expresses the importance of being yourself.

42:27

And I think it's a tacit recognition of

42:29

how the team at Brooklyn Nine-Nine have

42:31

allowed him to be himself. Yes, you

42:33

should be very proud of yourself. I know things

42:35

aren't exactly where you want to be right now,

42:37

but I promise you they will improve. Thank you,

42:39

Captain. Every time someone steps up and says who

42:41

they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting

42:43

place. So, thank

42:47

you. I

42:49

must say this is going considerably better than when

42:51

I came out to my colleagues. They were not,

42:53

as the kids say, awake. Do you mean woke?

42:56

I didn't mean woke, but it's grammatically incoherent. I'm

42:59

so glad he said that. That's the one thing

43:02

that's really annoyed me. You know, people get annoyed

43:04

by all of these, the woke karate, woke this,

43:06

woke that. For me, from the start, it was

43:08

always like, that's not right. That's not, you

43:11

can't use it like that. Drives

43:13

the word pedant in me up the

43:16

wall. The word pedant. Really, really does.

43:18

But with Holt, if you compare him

43:20

to like some of the other disciplinarians

43:23

we've seen in big American

43:25

shows, like Captain Daniels in the wire.

43:27

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or on the

43:29

other side of the law, like Tony

43:31

Soprano. Yes, of course. Are there similarities

43:33

there or is that crazy?

43:35

No, I think there's quite a few

43:37

similarities. I think what the characters have

43:40

in common, their empathy and their humanity,

43:43

and their ability to empathize that

43:45

enables deeper connections and understanding with

43:47

their colleagues and those that

43:50

are working for them. And they feel like they've got their

43:52

back. None of them are

43:54

particularly dictatorial and they'll also listen to

43:56

those that come to them for help. And I'm thinking particularly

43:58

of making that. ulti with Cedric Daniels.

44:01

And Cedric ends up really having to

44:04

put his own ambitions for promotion aside for the

44:06

good of the case and the team. So

44:08

I think with all the characters, Cedric

44:11

Daniels with Tony Soprano and

44:14

with Captain Holt, they're team players

44:16

and we love them for it. Yeah. Although

44:18

only one of them would maybe kill

44:20

you if you were out of line.

44:23

If you got on the wrong side of him. I

44:25

don't mean he's not a team player. It's just

44:27

you've got to be in the team. We've spoken

44:29

about gangs and how it's essential to the game.

44:31

Yeah. All right. Who we

44:33

got next time? Well, from the sublime to

44:35

the ridiculous, when we're talking about leaders, let's

44:38

take a listen. I

44:41

don't normally do these kinds of speeches, but

44:43

this feels like a big moment and they'll be

44:46

all turns to. I might not see any

44:48

of you again. You're

44:51

useless. The lot of you working

44:54

with me has been the lowest point and a

44:56

disappointing career. Right.

45:00

Can't write. You're with me. Amazing

45:04

speech from Gary Oldman, of

45:06

course, as Jackson

45:09

Lamb. Here's the wonderful Jackson

45:11

Lamb heading up the team

45:13

of slow horses. No

45:15

homework for me. No. You've seen

45:17

this one? No, I just read all the books.

45:19

Of course you have. We've done a lot of

45:22

bosses actually. Yeah. V from Oranges and New Black.

45:24

Naomi and Polly Shelby. Even Larry David's a boss

45:26

in a way. Yeah. He's a boss of the

45:28

sign fell. Yeah, of course. He's his own boss.

45:31

He's definitely bossy. Would you call ourselves shrink the

45:33

boss? Very good. It

45:35

wouldn't mean anything though. Be like woke. The

45:38

word pedant in you.

45:40

Yeah. I wouldn't be able to live with

45:42

it all myself. Emails and voice notes, guys.

45:44

Shrink the box at sonymusic.com. And do follow

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Apple Podcasts or by visiting extra

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takes.com. Thank you, production team. Production

46:11

management is Lily Hambly. The assistant

46:14

producer is Scarlett O'Malley. The studio

46:16

engineer is Matthias Torres-Soleil and the

46:18

mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The

46:20

producer is Jeremy Newmark-Jones. Senior producer

46:22

is Selena Ream and executive Simon

46:25

Paul. Shrink the Box is a

46:27

Sony Music Entertainment production.