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University. Private. Christian. Affordable. Visit

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gcu.edu/para pro. Hello,

0:31

Simon and Mark here. This week, Ben

0:33

and Nimone are putting Tyrion Lannister from

0:35

Game of Thrones on the couch. Yes,

0:37

the bottom of all the Lannister's jokes

0:39

and outside it with a unique perspective

0:42

and an underappreciated political genius among all

0:44

the dealings in Westeros. It's going to

0:46

be fascinating. Indeed, they'd love your emails,

0:48

voice notes and anything else at shrink

0:51

the box at sonymusic.com. Enjoy. You

0:54

are the buster, though. Lord

0:58

Edith Stark is my father. And

1:01

Lady Stark is not your mother, making

1:04

you the bastard. Let

1:06

me give you some advice, bastard. Never

1:10

forget what you are. The rest of the

1:12

world will not wear

1:14

it like armor, and

1:16

it can never be used to hurt you. What the

1:18

hell do you know about being a bastard? All

1:22

dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes. It's

1:30

Ben Baster Smith here. I'm

1:32

a mataxxus. I didn't know you were

1:34

going to call yourself that. Discussed, no? I

1:37

know. Welcome. Welcome

1:41

once more to the podcast that puts our

1:43

favorite fictional protagonist into the therapeutic spotlight. That

1:45

was Nimone. You heard from there our resident

1:47

psychotherapist here to shed some light on why

1:49

these characters do the things they do. And

1:51

I'll try and uncover whatever else I can

1:53

uncover this left. You'll bring you a bit.

1:55

I'll bring my stuff. Tell us about that.

2:00

opening the pit there. Oh, I think

2:02

that's really important. That was Tyrion Lannister,

2:04

a pledge by Peter Dinklage, talking to

2:06

Jon Snow, who's Kit Harrington, the actor.

2:09

They both have something in common, they are both

2:11

outsiders. And this is kind of at the core

2:13

of Tyrion's world, it's at the core of Game

2:15

of Thrones really, but the core of certainly Tyrion's

2:17

world, how he is different and other, but has

2:19

learned to build a shield around himself for the

2:21

most part. Although after this exchange, he kind of

2:23

walks off drinking as if to drown his sorrows

2:25

and distance himself from the pain of this fact,

2:27

because you hear him deliver it as a sort

2:29

of fact to Jon Snow. But I think quite

2:31

often we can feel the pain of Tyrion. And

2:34

we can see how keenly he feels his difference,

2:36

and we'll get into the lack of acceptance from

2:38

his father and all the reasons that that might

2:40

be as well. As always,

2:42

I say we'd love to hear from

2:44

anyone listening about the characters we're discussing,

2:46

the theories that you have, the issues

2:48

we're talking about. But in this episode

2:50

particularly, I will refer to Tyrion as

2:52

person with dwarfism and person of small

2:54

stature. In the therapy room, it's

2:56

always quite important to use the language a client

2:58

uses to talk about themselves. So I'm going

3:00

to stay as close as I can to

3:02

the language that Tyrion uses to describe himself.

3:05

But as always, as ever, I'm keen to

3:07

hear your thoughts on anything we're covering and

3:09

any experience of dwarfism, any terminology you're familiar

3:11

with, which you think it would be helpful

3:14

for us to use as well. So shrink

3:16

the box at sonymusic.com. I

3:19

interviewed Peter for Serrano.

3:23

And it was fascinating hearing him talk about

3:25

that stuff. As I was asking him, you

3:28

know, all the Serranos that have come before,

3:30

who had been able to put on a

3:32

prosthetic nose. And he like that just triggered

3:34

him into talking about dwarfism and what he

3:37

was bringing to the world, what he carried

3:39

to it and what he carries to every

3:41

role because of other people's perceptions, but also

3:43

because of how he sees and understands himself.

3:46

He is a fascinating dude. And I think

3:48

he has chosen roles, particularly where he can

3:50

challenge stereotypes. And obviously, Serrano

3:52

de Bergerac is one of those as is

3:54

Tyrion Lannister. The best character for me in

3:57

the show. I mean, we don't need to

3:59

get into too much of the fandom around

4:01

of Thrones as a whole, but Tyrion in

4:03

particular is the best character, he's the funniest,

4:06

he's got the best lines, he's the one

4:08

I feel like we want the best for.

4:10

Yeah, we're rooting for him the most when

4:13

you think about it, like there's

4:15

all the constant boozing and the

4:17

constant boobs, it's like constant boobs,

4:19

constant boobs, even that almost

4:21

like with us he sort of goes, us,

4:24

tired of this. Do you know what I

4:26

mean? We've raised our eyebrows, Tyrion's

4:29

doing it on the show. Yeah, he's like our

4:31

guide, I love him. All right, so coming up,

4:33

we're gonna look at one of the most talked

4:35

about TV slaps since Moira.

4:38

Well, yeah, don't have to go very far, do we,

4:40

on this show for another one of those? In Shits

4:43

Creek. And we're gonna talk about how playing with yourself

4:45

can get you out of a whole heap of bollah.

4:47

You'd be careful how you say that. So

4:51

let's get into the character who makes us question

4:53

who's a hero, who's a villain, who we really

4:55

want to have power in Game of Thrones and

4:57

a reminder that there's gonna be swearing, I mean,

4:59

I swore on the very opening. So welcome back

5:01

guys, to another Shrink the Box. Okay,

5:08

here's our mini recap, as ever, we'll

5:10

only talk about the plot that directly

5:13

relates to our client. So you remember

5:15

King Robert Baratheon and his Queen Cersei

5:17

Lannister travel north to offer his old

5:19

friend Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell the

5:21

role of Hand of the King. Ned's

5:24

10 year old son, Bran discovers that

5:26

Cersei and Jaime Lannister, brother and sister

5:28

are involved in this incestuous relationship. Jaime

5:30

pushes Bran out the window to keep

5:32

him from telling anyone. From

5:35

that, Ned figures out that Joffrey, Queen

5:37

Cersei's son, is not heir

5:39

to the throne, as his

5:41

dad is actually his uncle.

5:44

Ned is beheaded. This starts

5:46

a massive war, because

5:48

the Stark and the Baratheons want to contest

5:51

the Lannisters taking the throne. And

5:53

meanwhile, another Lannister sibling, Tyrion,

5:56

the black sheep of the family, who

5:58

normally spends his time drinking and holding. It

6:00

is now expected to become part of

6:02

the battle and whilst his father Tywin

6:05

leads the charge, Tyrion

6:07

is made a temporary hand of the king

6:09

and starts to find some

6:12

purpose in life. So with

6:14

all that in mind, this is quite a lot.

6:18

Introduce us to this week's client.

6:20

I will say male, I think we're

6:22

saying twenties. We learn during the first

6:24

or possibly early second series, mother died

6:26

giving birth to him, which is pertinent

6:29

to both the other siblings and how they treat

6:31

him. He

6:33

is a person with dwarfism. He

6:35

calls himself dwarf. He

6:38

is called imp, half man.

6:42

He is son of Tywin Lannister, brother to

6:44

Cersei and Jaime who you just mentioned in

6:46

that incestuous relationship. They are all

6:48

the Lannister clan and Tyrion, who

6:50

we learn later on in series two,

6:53

I think is divorced. Maybe it's series

6:55

one actually early on. Did

6:57

he marry a sex worker? I can't remember. We'll

6:59

come on to that. It's used to kind of,

7:01

yeah, it's used to stick to beat him. Absolutely.

7:06

So as you've already drawn attention to, we're shown early

7:08

on that Tyrion loves to drink, loves women. He's

7:11

very aware of his dwarfism and he uses it

7:13

as a shield. He mentions it, I think he

7:15

mentions it before his detractors do to kind of

7:17

take the sting out of it, take the power

7:19

out of it, of that difference and perhaps to

7:21

signal to people, you can't hurt me in that

7:23

way. So don't even try it. He

7:26

deflects people's comments by using his height as

7:28

a distraction. He's the first to

7:30

make fun of himself in lots of ways and

7:32

we can think about that as a defense a

7:34

little bit later on. And even references his height

7:37

when he's being vulnerable about how his stature has

7:39

affected his relationships. He is constantly alluded to being

7:41

the black sheep in the family and kind of

7:43

heightens our awareness of his status

7:45

as the outsider in that Lannister family group.

7:47

He's often referred to as the imposy said

7:50

or half prince very effectively at

7:52

the end of the battle of King's Landing as

7:54

half men and the entire battalion are kind of

7:56

shouting that for him. It really is

7:58

a compliment in the way that he's doing it. he's handled the

8:00

battle. Tyrion begins Game of Thrones

8:02

by being overtly sexual and quite vulgar at

8:04

times. He's also extremely witty and funny. And at

8:07

the outset of series one, I think he comes

8:09

across as a bit lost. He doesn't really

8:11

have a role in the

8:13

Lannister family. And Tyrion uses his privilege, as

8:15

we see early on, as a rich Lannister

8:17

or the wealth of his family to kind

8:19

of make his way through the different realms

8:21

in Game of Thrones, promising anyone he meets

8:24

along the way gold and

8:26

land. Because a Lannister always pays

8:28

his debts. Yeah.

8:30

Or her. Or her. You know, if

8:32

you're told that you are something derogatory

8:34

every day, all the time, eventually

8:36

you're going to see what you can do

8:39

with this label. If he's coming into your

8:41

office, having spent his life, you know, being

8:43

called the imp, the black sheep, the one

8:45

who killed their mum, what do you think

8:47

might be the first thing he, well, he'd

8:49

probably proposition you, wouldn't he? But

8:52

after that. I was thinking, I mean,

8:54

Tyrion might be one of

8:56

the characters who would come into therapy

8:58

from Game of Thrones. He's self-aware enough

9:00

and reflective enough. And I think

9:02

you're right. I think it would be a bit of an adventure.

9:05

And I certainly wouldn't rule out that a proposition

9:07

might be the first thing or

9:09

first overture he might make towards his therapist. I

9:11

mean, he often alludes to being the black sheep

9:14

of the family, feeling as though he's an outcast

9:16

and not wanted by his family, his father and

9:18

his wider family, to be honest. I think that

9:20

would be an error to explore in therapy within

9:22

his debt, his kind of desire to please and

9:24

be accepted by his father and his wider family.

9:27

Because of course, there is that need to belong,

9:29

not feel outcast or disliked for who we are.

9:31

And at its most basic, the kind of danger

9:33

in having to survive outside the group and not

9:35

being much harder than being kind

9:37

of in the middle of it. And what

9:40

can emerge sometimes is a kind of splitting

9:42

within the family. So the so-called black sheep

9:44

can end up holding a

9:46

lot of the difficult emotions that

9:48

the other family members are unable

9:50

to bear. So here, shame, fear,

9:52

inadequacy. I mean, we can think

9:54

of that happening via projection from

9:56

the other members of the family.

9:58

So Cersei, Jamie, Tywin. and

10:01

a kind of interjection by

10:04

the so-called black sheep. So Tyrion takes all

10:06

this on board and any abuse

10:08

leveled at him by the other Lannisters could

10:11

potentially be another way of the

10:13

other family members splitting parts off

10:15

of themselves because they despise those

10:17

bits. Let Tyrion have that

10:19

and he can be the container of those feelings.

10:21

And as you said, if you're called that enough,

10:23

or if the other parts of you aren't

10:25

welcomed within the family, you might start believing

10:27

some of what you're hearing. There

10:30

is a sadness there, isn't there? For all

10:32

the bluster and the wit, and he is

10:34

clearly the funniest guy in

10:36

the whole of Westeros. There is this

10:38

like, he's mastered Dinklage, the actor has

10:40

mastered that hang dog expression. The pathos.

10:43

You know, and like every now and

10:45

again, your heart just breaks for him.

10:47

Well, of course, all of this doesn't

10:49

happen in isolation, does it? Context is

10:51

key. Here is a word, they are

10:53

constantly at war, pretty much from

10:55

the beginning of the first series. Physical

10:58

strength, fighting prowess, everything dominates.

11:01

Tyrion's quite an easy target in

11:03

that environment. And we can

11:06

reflect actually on how easy or safe it is

11:08

to show weakness and vulnerability within the Lannister clan

11:11

more widely. And that environment

11:13

generally in King's Landing and Game

11:15

of Thrones. So projection becomes a

11:18

strong defense for the

11:20

siblings onto Tyrion. I'm

11:22

kind of curious about the feelings that might be

11:24

evoked in others in his family

11:26

by disability or in this case, dwarfism.

11:29

Does it remind them of a

11:31

fragility? Is that how they're feeling

11:33

about it? Yeah, that's a good

11:35

point. The dad is embarrassed by

11:37

him being anything like a face

11:39

of the family in other places.

11:41

Oh, he's kept him. He's been

11:44

kept him, yeah. Yeah, and then

11:46

of course, that central issue of

11:48

the fact that their mum died

11:50

and giving birth to him means

11:52

he's, there's so much bitterness and

11:54

resentment towards him from kickoff, really.

11:56

There's collective grief at the

11:58

loss of their mother and son. Tywin's

12:00

wife and no one's wasted any time

12:02

in giving that a focus, Tyrion.

12:05

So that, I mean, he's for them, certainly, he's

12:08

the one to blame. And the fact that he's

12:10

held responsible by others for killing their mother without

12:12

physical difference being in the field. I

12:14

mean, it'd be interesting to explore how much

12:16

guilt he carries or what his feelings are

12:20

about the loss of their mother. I

12:22

mean, Cersei really digs the knife

12:24

in during series two. It's

12:27

all fallen on me. As has Jaime

12:29

repeatedly, according to Stannis Baratheon. You're

12:32

funny. You've

12:34

always been funny, but none of your jokes will ever

12:37

match the first one, will they? You

12:39

remember back when you ripped my mother open on your way

12:42

out of her and she bled to death. She

12:44

was my mother too. Mother

12:47

gone for the sake of

12:49

you. There's no bigger joke in

12:51

the world than that. I mean, Cersei

12:54

really turning his humor against him. He's

12:56

horrible. It's

12:58

awful when you're seeing it. It's quite

13:01

difficult to listen to again, isn't it? And

13:04

we might reflect together in therapy where Tyrion to

13:06

come, what it was like for him to grow

13:08

up without a mother. How much space there

13:10

has been for him to grieve. I imagine

13:13

very little. Well, they're not giving you,

13:15

you can't hear any of it in the series, can

13:17

you? He's totally blamed for the loss of Martin. And

13:19

you can hear it in Cersei there. And that's hard

13:21

enough at the best of times, alongside

13:23

a father who rejects him in a society that sees

13:26

him as less than. It's a

13:28

rough start in life. Is there anything

13:30

that you can speak on or

13:32

anything you could say about losing

13:34

a parent in that way compared

13:37

to losing a parent at say seven

13:39

or eight years old, which presumably maybe

13:41

Cersei or Jaime was? I mean, I

13:44

think there is a missing

13:46

that happens that's reflected in the environment

13:49

around you, which you will pick up

13:51

on. So you might obviously

13:53

you won't know that person. So you're

13:55

not missing a

13:57

person who you've met, but there is a lost

14:00

to be felt and it's how that shows up

14:03

for you, which will be different. Because

14:05

we're talking about internal and external worlds

14:07

as well, aren't we? And obviously for

14:09

Tyrion, he doesn't have an external mother

14:13

figure to miss, like perhaps Jaime and Cersei

14:15

are older than him. Tyrion Snider Yeah, I

14:17

think he's the younger. Loretta So

14:19

then, but he will experience missing.

14:22

He's also being told that she

14:24

is greatly missed and

14:26

blamed for it. Tyrion And I suppose there will

14:28

be myths and lies. He can't prove or disprove.

14:31

Loretta Well, his only way of knowing her is

14:33

through the people around him. Tyrion Yeah, who are

14:35

awful people. So we should

14:37

probably mention Charles D'Anse's character, Tyrion

14:39

Lannister, the sort of the patriarch

14:41

of the Lannisters. Loretta He is

14:44

Tyrion Cersei and Jaime's no father.

14:46

And he's played brilliantly by Charles

14:48

D'Anse. Tyrion The rumours of your

14:50

demise were unfunded. Loretta And we

14:52

get a real window, I think,

14:55

in the relationship between Tyrion and

14:57

his father Tywin towards

15:00

the end of series one. And then

15:02

in episode nine, Tywin explains to Tyrion

15:04

he's going to have to lead the

15:06

battle. Jaime is a knight of the

15:08

realm. Tyrion's not really been on the

15:10

battlefield. And he's certainly not excelled as

15:12

a fighter. And he said, surely there

15:15

are other ways to have me killed.

15:17

There will be less detrimental to the

15:19

war effort. And he can

15:21

hear how much of an outsider, how expendable

15:23

he feels when

15:25

he told he'd be on the front line. I mean,

15:27

miraculously, he survives that battle, because he's knocked over by

15:29

a horse and he spends most of the battle unconscious,

15:32

I mean, in a typical Tyrion way. But

15:34

it's a problematic relationship, that one. Paul

15:36

And probably the most stark, excuse

15:38

the pun, the most stark example

15:41

of the rejection that Tyrion feels

15:43

like his dad has just got

15:45

no time from it all. Not

15:47

even a kind word, you know,

15:49

Jaime might sugarcoat things slightly, his

15:51

dad's got no interest in doing

15:53

that whatsoever. But for somebody who's

15:55

felt all of this rejection and

15:57

hate and disgust at his very

15:59

existence. How

16:02

is Tyrion like the most affable and reasonable

16:04

character? He's a great diplomat. He becomes a

16:06

great diplomat. And

16:08

finally, that kind of all of that

16:10

pays off because Tyrion, you can see

16:12

the pride that he feels when

16:14

he's asked to act as Hand of the King because eventually

16:16

By his dad. His father

16:19

does see him and reward

16:21

him. I'm thinking of Hand of the

16:23

King as right hand man, spin doctor,

16:25

special advisor. Yeah, because

16:27

I think it's not a term that we... Yeah, like Closiglieri and

16:29

then Mafia. Yeah. So whilst

16:31

his father is to be otherwise engaged fighting

16:33

Robb Stark's growing army and Jaime is captured

16:36

by the Starks, Tyrion has to grow into

16:38

this role and responsibility and even

16:40

declares that he enjoys this. I'm good at

16:42

this. It's like he's found his calling.

16:44

I'm good at this. I'm good. Very

16:47

well done. And it is a

16:49

role of wheeling and dealing and basically saving

16:51

Joffrey's ass. By episode 10, we see the

16:53

potential for them to have a closer bond,

16:56

definitely. I think as Tywin realizes Tyrion's potential,

16:58

there's a moment even where you do see

17:00

Charles. Charles Dance, I think plays it well.

17:02

It sort of softens slightly towards Tyrion. Yeah.

17:06

And there's pride for Tyrion about being back

17:08

in the inner circle of his family. It's

17:10

kind of cemented at the start of season

17:12

two. Your father has

17:14

named Lord Tyrion to serve his hand in

17:16

his stead while he fights. Out! All of

17:19

you! Out! I

17:26

would like to know how you tricked father into this. If

17:28

I were capable of tricking father, I'd be emperor of

17:30

the world by now. You brought this on

17:32

yourself. I've done nothing.

17:35

Quite right. You did nothing. When

17:37

your son called for Ned Stark's head. Now the entire north has

17:39

risen up against us. I tried to stop it. Did

17:43

you? You failed. That bit of

17:45

theater will haunt our family for a generation.

17:47

Robb Stark is a child. Who's won every

17:49

battle he's fought? Do

17:51

you understand we're losing the war? What do

17:54

you know about warfare? Nothing. But

17:56

I know people. And I

17:58

know that our enemies hate each other all the

18:00

time. almost as much as they hate us. Yeah,

18:03

that's the rub of it, isn't it? He's totally

18:05

willing to admit he knows nothing about these things

18:07

that they take so much pride in, like how

18:09

many people they killed, the land that they've stolen.

18:11

He doesn't know, it's not in his wheelhouse. But

18:14

he's also happy to be the bad object. Like

18:16

he knows they are hated. And he kind

18:18

of, he's using that. Whereas I think Cersei

18:20

would like to live in some world where

18:23

she doesn't see that. Yeah, and

18:25

she's worshiped even by the people that

18:28

she's enslaved or like committed

18:30

genocide against. Do you know what I

18:32

mean? She's got that image of the

18:34

queen. He's definitely had to

18:36

negotiate others around

18:38

him and move in

18:40

a different way. You're absolutely right. He just hasn't had

18:43

that power. And so he's had to

18:45

kind of work the environment

18:47

and the family landscape, if you like,

18:50

in a different way. And understanding people

18:52

is his great strength. He's gone from

18:54

disappointing child to hand of the king

18:58

in place of his father. And there, as we heard, Cersei's

19:01

messed up. Will that be the end of her? She'll

19:06

be back. Absolutely. Let's dig

19:08

into a little bit more how

19:10

Tyrion has been treated so profoundly

19:12

differently to his siblings. It's different

19:15

in all its many guises here, isn't it?

19:17

And we see how his difference and the

19:19

way in which he's had to navigate his

19:21

environment differently to his siblings has kind of

19:23

led him to be empathetic. To those considered

19:26

to be differently able to him. So we

19:28

also see what it's like to

19:30

be around disability if that's a word

19:32

that they might use in the Lannister

19:34

family. I mean, I really feel like

19:36

there's a medieval era mentality to

19:39

difference in gender and sexuality. Yeah,

19:41

absolutely. Not sex, per se, but

19:43

certainly sexuality. This is the backdrop to how

19:45

we're kind of thinking about difference. And then along

19:47

comes someone with dwarfism, it's like. And Tyrion,

19:50

I mean, I think we

19:52

see the empathy that Tyrion feels

19:54

for others. Again, when

19:56

the Stark son Bran, he's lost his legs

19:58

having been pushed from the tower. by

20:01

Jamie, that empathy feels immediate with

20:03

what's happened to Gran. Tyrion

20:30

is like, you've got to shape the horse to the rider. You can hear there. I

20:56

wanted to say that Tyrion's

20:59

height and his feeling about his stature would

21:01

only come into the therapy room explicitly if

21:03

he brought it. And

21:06

I'm not sure it's necessarily the first thing you talk about.

21:09

We might get curious about his experience

21:11

of the world, his awareness of his

21:13

own experience. And then we may

21:15

talk about how it is for him to navigate

21:17

the world and the environment and the expectations and

21:19

how he meets them or not, which might get

21:21

us into that territory. And whether he feels accepted

21:23

or not. So it's really, it would

21:26

start from his own feelings about difference and how

21:28

society might find him unacceptable that we would reflect

21:30

on. Because I mean, often he is wielding his

21:32

difference as a superpower. And it kind

21:36

of demonstrates the clip, what we've been

21:38

talking about demonstrates the complex landscape because,

21:41

and how we might be exploring that

21:43

in a therapeutic relationship all at the

21:45

same time, we're working with the intra-psychic.

21:47

So that's within your own head, how

21:49

you might be viewing the world from

21:52

within. So you know, we've talked

21:54

about object relations and how you

21:56

make sense of the world. That's

21:59

your intra-psychic world. we'd be thinking

22:01

about the interpersonal that happens outside

22:05

and at the same time the

22:07

kind of societal, socio-environmental. But in Tyrion's

22:09

case, we might be thinking about how

22:11

society views those with a particular difference.

22:13

And then also as a therapist or

22:15

therapists, how we might inadvertently bring unhelpful

22:17

societal views or responses into the room

22:19

because you'd also, as ever, you're kind

22:21

of looking out for countertransference. And I've

22:23

talked before about how useful it is

22:26

to know some of your stuff, your

22:28

own judgments that you make about the

22:30

world and to be able to include

22:32

those in the space. And I suppose

22:34

to not fear getting it wrong must

22:36

be quite important. Exactly that. The kind

22:38

of shame that might come with the

22:40

idea of getting it wrong. It's like

22:43

getting it wrong is part of perhaps

22:45

finally meeting somebody. I mean, outside of

22:47

the Game of Thrones world, there's a

22:49

dominant Western world medical model, which kind

22:51

of infers that someone with a disability,

22:53

in this case to autism, might have

22:55

something wrong with them. Certainly in the

22:57

past, that was sort of what we've

22:59

referred to here as well as less

23:02

than. And therefore, they might need to

23:04

go through a process of loss adjustment

23:06

or acceptance, because that's what they're calling

23:08

the norm. And obviously this is different

23:10

from it. And the focus on the

23:12

person with disability being fixed or encouraged

23:14

to fit into the non-disabled world. So

23:16

this is what Tyrion's kind of referring

23:19

to as you're to fit the horse

23:21

to the rider. I'm not going to

23:23

be bound by what you think is

23:25

possible because you're sitting there looking at

23:27

Bran now thinking he can't possibly ride

23:29

a horse. He doesn't have the use

23:31

of his legs. Tyrion's looked at it

23:33

in a completely different way. But he

23:35

also, he does actually use actual violence

23:38

himself sometimes. I mean, we got, I

23:40

teased it earlier. We got to talk

23:42

about the slap. Okay. Because

23:44

in episode two, he slaps his

23:47

nephew slash brother. Slaps

23:52

Joffrey around the face in probably the first

23:54

moment that got me sort of like out

23:56

of my seat cheering, watching Game Thrones because

23:58

Joffrey's so insufferable. and

30:01

compensating for perhaps the

30:03

feeling of being less than physically and

30:05

and part of his overall bravado another

30:07

part of his shield. Queen has two

30:09

brothers. There's the pretty one and

30:14

there's the clever one. I hear they

30:16

call him the imp. I

30:18

hear he hates that nickname. Oh? I

30:20

hear he's more than earned it. I

30:23

hear he's a drunken little letcher prone

30:25

to all manner of perversions. Clever

30:28

girl. We've

30:31

been expecting you to look too in. So is

30:33

it like the sort of Princess Margaret deal where

30:36

she feels like she's got nothing to do so she might

30:38

as well just be a

30:40

head-nest? He is a bit lost at

30:42

this stage so what else is there

30:44

for him to do but to play

30:46

up the idea of being a rich

30:48

provocative Lannister who can fashion you with

30:50

gold at every return. Because he's never

30:52

going to be given a job in

30:54

his eyes of any real worth. In

30:56

his view exactly that's where he's headed

30:58

because Cersei is Queen, Jamie is Knight.

31:02

Where do I fit in as the kind

31:05

of... Tywin's Tywin. Yeah. I mean I think

31:07

it would also be good to reflect with

31:09

Tyrion his experience of the effect of his

31:11

language on people and how he feels about

31:13

his vulgarity because again we'll only come into

31:16

the therapy really his use of language if

31:18

he brought it up because it also might

31:20

keep people at a distance. I think it's

31:22

problematic if people are avoiding you or you're

31:24

having trouble making lasting relationships which we

31:27

might think with Tyrion although we do see him eventually

31:29

fall in love. Yeah and he's been in love before.

31:31

And then if you feel like once

31:33

he's been given the job as King's Hand

31:35

by his father and he's fallen for his

31:37

new love I get the impression he's more

31:40

respectful of the women around him. Certainly

31:42

that feels like it belongs at the beginning

31:44

of series one. What do

31:46

you think? Yeah it could be that he

31:48

wants to shock people and by turns make

31:51

them laugh and that's his way of feeling

31:53

this sense of belonging. Like in episode six

31:55

in the first series he escapes being put

31:57

to death because he just makes a mockery

31:59

of the trial. by confessing his sins. So

32:02

he sets everybody up to hear that he's,

32:04

you know, committed this heinous crime.

32:06

But when he lists the sins, I

32:09

mean, it's classic. It's

32:11

a classic G.O.T. moment, I think. When I was

32:14

seven, I saw a servant go, bathing

32:16

in the river. I stole her robe,

32:18

and she was forced to return

32:21

to the castle, naked and in tears.

32:25

I closed my eyes. I could

32:27

still see her tits bouncing. And

32:29

that's not the half of that speech, really.

32:31

That speech is incredible. It's one

32:34

of those moments, if you're watching

32:36

along with us and you haven't reached that bit yet, wait

32:38

for that. And if you have, I think you'll know what

32:40

we're talking about. I mean, it's incredible. And of

32:43

course, it's a very it's where we

32:45

can see Tyrion use his humour to

32:47

great effect. And with an audience, it's

32:49

perfect. A whole court

32:51

performing. It's just that that is his

32:53

dream role. Are we going

32:55

to talk a bit more about his sense of humour, actually,

32:57

after some words from a sponsor? And

32:59

unless you're a shrinker, of course, in which case, Hold

33:02

the Line caller will be back very soon. What

33:13

was the last thing that filled you with wonder

33:15

that took you away from your desk or your

33:17

car in traffic? Well, for us, I'm going to

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guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime!

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Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec

33:26

Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome

33:28

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33:30

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33:38

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33:40

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33:42

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33:44

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33:46

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33:48

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33:57

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join us every Friday wherever you get

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on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel.

34:20

It's us again, it's Ben and the Moon talking

34:22

about Tyrion. And we were saying

34:24

before the ads there about

34:27

him being this, you know, naturally

34:30

funny and empathetic human

34:32

being again, so different

34:34

from his siblings and almost almost anybody else

34:37

in in Westeros, really. There's

34:40

not another character. I think Varys

34:42

comes close. Yeah. And, you

34:44

know, I think you feel for Jon Snow,

34:46

but because he knows nothing, he's

34:48

hard to get close to. Not as witty

34:50

as Tyrion. I mean, maybe he's not really

34:53

his best. A lot of Tyrion's humor is

34:55

based around his drinking or being self-depreciating and

34:57

using humor to break tension, of course, or

34:59

using humor as a diversion to save his

35:01

skin. Yeah. I am Tyrion, son

35:04

of Tywin of Clan Lannister. How would you like

35:06

to die, Tyrion, son of Tywin? My

35:10

own bed at the age of 80, with

35:13

a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth around my... My

35:19

parents are going to be listening to this show. Tyrion,

35:22

I mean, he does like to

35:24

mesh funny and vulgar again, we

35:27

might be exploring this use of humor, because as

35:29

you said, he probably he might come in and

35:31

proposition a therapist. He

35:34

he would almost certainly be using

35:37

humor probably to keep people at

35:39

a distance or to avoid going

35:41

to more vulnerable places. But obviously,

35:43

that's how he's used his humor.

35:45

It's not about saying that we

35:47

can't be humorous, but

35:49

certainly noticing with people when

35:52

they're funny, but something that is

35:54

funny necessarily can

35:56

be quite revealing because

35:59

the... The humour doesn't match the emotion

36:01

and that might be something that would

36:03

be useful to think about with someone.

36:05

Because it then does point to, what

36:07

am I finding difficult to get close

36:09

to here? What is the thing with

36:11

Tyrion? Why is he holding... The

36:14

pain, the suffering, the outsiderness,

36:17

the feeling that he doesn't belong. It's a combination

36:19

of all of these things. Also,

36:21

he's been a victim of shit humour.

36:23

So if you think back to the

36:25

situation, we see him falling over Shay,

36:27

the sex worker. This has happened before,

36:29

but it was part of an elaborate

36:31

ruse that his brother was involved in

36:33

because they thought it was funny. But

36:36

again, I have this sense

36:38

that that relates to the projection of

36:40

you can hold all the bad stuff

36:42

for us and only it kind of

36:44

increases the other ring that happens around

36:46

Tyrion because it's safer than coming face

36:48

to face with your own vulnerability. First

36:50

my father had Jamie tell me the

36:52

truth. The

36:55

girl was a...you see? Jamie

36:59

had arranged the whole thing. The

37:01

road, the rapours, all of it. He

37:04

thought it was time I had a woman. After

37:08

my brother confessed, my

37:11

father brought in my wife and gave her

37:14

to his guards. He

37:16

paid her well. Silver for each

37:19

man. How many whores command that kind of

37:21

price? He

37:24

brought me into the barracks and made me watch. By

37:28

the end, she had so

37:30

much silver that the coins were slipping

37:32

through her fingers and rolling onto the

37:34

floor. I

37:36

find some of those more misogynistic moments

37:38

really difficult to listen to. And

37:42

you can really hear the cruelty

37:44

wielded by his family in

37:46

the name of, well, we thought that you

37:48

should come of age or that you should

37:50

have a woman or that you should find

37:52

a part of yourself. It was

37:55

just like an extreme version of what I imagine they were

37:57

doing to him from when he was a lot younger than

37:59

me. I mean, it's really

38:01

revealing about how he's the

38:03

way that he is, how he's been treated, maltreated,

38:07

says more about his family constellation, what

38:09

it might take to survive within the

38:11

Lannister family. Can you define

38:13

family constellation? We probably need a whole program

38:16

and we might do a constellation with a

38:18

family, but I think to

38:20

say briefly, it's where he fits into the

38:22

family and how people are constellated around you

38:25

in your family environment. So

38:27

you might work with people to see

38:29

what it feels like to where you

38:31

might place the other family members in

38:33

a room around you in terms of

38:35

how close you feel to them, whether

38:38

they're facing you, turning away, and

38:40

therefore, where you are in relation to the

38:42

rest of your family

38:45

members. And it can be quite emotive

38:48

to think about that in that

38:51

way. Does that explain a little bit?

38:53

Yeah, it does. It does. I've never

38:55

heard that phrase before, but that's very interesting. Think

38:57

about the dynamics within a family, even

38:59

if you all live in the same

39:01

house. And what it feels like to be the third

39:04

of three children to have lost their mother birthing him, what it

39:06

feels like to be in the presence of his father, and

39:09

where he'd place his siblings in relation to

39:11

his father, all of that. I mean,

39:13

that sense of where he is in the

39:15

family is underlying again

39:17

in series two. Cersei is

39:20

furious with him sending her only daughter off

39:22

to secure more ships for the

39:25

Lannister army to defend King's Landing.

39:28

And she knows the way to hurt

39:30

Tyrion is to hurt those he loves,

39:32

which I guess they found out with

39:35

the awful joke they played on him that we've

39:37

just heard. He is completely surrounded

39:39

by people who either hate him,

39:41

ridicule him, wish him harm, or

39:43

just don't want anything good to

39:45

happen for him. Which is kind

39:47

of why Shae, the sex

39:49

worker we mentioned before, is so important

39:52

for him. He's building something with her,

39:54

even though I think he's smart enough

39:56

to know there's a day he's gonna

39:58

come where he's gonna have to

40:00

leave her or be cruel in some

40:02

way. Well, we know that

40:04

she was initially, Tywin told him

40:07

not to take her to King's

40:09

Landing, and Tyrion completely

40:11

just shuns that idea

40:13

because he is falling in love with her. But

40:15

he does have to keep her hidden. So I think you're right. And

40:18

this is where it feels really difficult because

40:20

it doesn't feel like that has

40:22

any life in it or longevity. And

40:24

that must be, for him, being a

40:27

deep thinker, must feel like a metaphor

40:29

for his entire life. That there's no

40:31

point in trying to seek the happiness

40:34

that every human being should have the right

40:36

to because it's going to be taken away

40:39

from him horribly in the way that it

40:41

always has. Because he's this freak of nature

40:43

that doesn't belong anymore. Well, Shay really sees

40:45

him. Yeah, she does. And

40:47

she offers him a way out. And

40:50

it's really, it would be interesting to reflect

40:52

with Tyrion why he chooses to stay in

40:54

King's Landing because she says, let's just run

40:56

away. Let's go to the beach,

40:58

hang out. And you can kind of imagine Tyrion

41:03

sort of living that life. We sort of see

41:05

him in that carefree way at the beginning of

41:07

series one. But by the time he's been Hand

41:10

of the King and had

41:12

a bit more of that taste of

41:14

power and found a role for himself

41:16

within the family, he can't leave. So

41:19

it's a real push pull for him. And that

41:21

would need some reflecting on, and I suppose his

41:23

feelings about that to be expressed. Otherwise,

41:26

we'd end up in an either all thinking

41:28

kind of patterns, which can blind people to

41:30

the other possibilities. It's much more

41:32

nuanced. We see the impact of

41:35

having to keep his true love hidden, that

41:37

sort of push pull. I mean, I say

41:39

it as love for his family, but he

41:41

desperately wants their acceptance and to

41:43

feel something differently. And I suppose we could

41:45

get curious with him about what it's like,

41:48

but that's not forthcoming in the way that

41:50

he'd like, and how there might be disappointment

41:52

around that. I imagine a complete adventure

41:55

with Tyrion. Yeah, it would

41:57

be. Shock tactics, charm, wit.

42:00

initially protecting his vulnerability and pain,

42:02

and then his ability to

42:04

reflect kicking in. It'd be amazing to

42:06

see what would be possible. Yeah. So,

42:09

who are we looking forward to next

42:12

week, Simone? It's another episode of Shrink

42:14

the Inbox. Oh, wicked. We have got

42:16

a show that's full of surprises. We

42:19

want to hear your theories as well.

42:21

We don't hold all the cards. Shrink

42:23

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43:12

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All right. Well, until then.