0:00

So you know, I was having dinner with a couple

0:02

of producers for this show. We were talking

0:04

about Baltimore's School of the Arts,

0:07

where someone on our team worked

0:09

for ten years, and she mentioned that

0:12

Tupac did ballet,

0:15

and we were just having this conversation

0:17

about expanding

0:19

the ideas of who

0:22

can study something like classical

0:25

ballet, and the

0:27

fact that this is a world

0:29

that has traditionally been

0:32

sort of narrow in the way the types

0:34

of people that will, you know, study

0:37

ballet, and also the fact that it's hasn't

0:40

really necessarily tried that hard

0:42

to draw in young

0:44

men, and certainly not young black men. And

0:47

Misty Copeland is my guest today, and

0:50

she has broken records from a young

0:52

age and now she is just pushing

0:54

for exactly that, for more diversity in

0:56

dance with her foundation, the Misty Copeland

0:59

Foundation. She's the first black

1:01

principal ballerine at the American Ballet

1:04

Theater, and I might add

1:06

that it took them seventy

1:08

years to get there. So

1:11

lean in. I'm glad you're here

1:13

from this

1:13

one. Hey,

1:22

thank you everybody for being here today. I'm

1:24

very, very excited to have our

1:26

guest, Misty Copeland with

1:29

us on the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. For

1:32

those of you who don't know, get

1:35

out from under the Rock. This is one of America's

1:38

greatest ballerina is with an

1:40

incredible history and an incredible

1:43

story. You

1:45

know, I'm

1:47

always looking for connections. That's kind of

1:49

like what kind of one of the essence of this

1:52

particular podcast.

1:55

And it's interesting because recently

1:57

I was speaking to Eli

2:02

Manning, who was a great quarterback

2:05

for the New York Giants, and uh,

2:08

I was talking about how

2:10

hard it is for me to picture doing

2:13

what he does for a living. And

2:16

you know, in my job, I'm constantly meeting

2:18

with people and trying to do research

2:21

and ride alongs and you know, trying

2:23

to make me look

2:25

like I could actually do a job that I have would

2:27

have no idea how to do. So when I look at

2:29

something like, you know, being a quarterback. But

2:32

the strange thing is is that I did

2:34

a dance movie and I can't imagine

2:37

being a dancer. I mean, I just

2:39

I just think about that like it's

2:42

you know, the the

2:44

the discipline and the and the and

2:47

the dedication and the toll on your body and all

2:49

those things in that really tiny little

2:53

moment that I had to experience.

2:55

It really kicked my ass. So I'm really curious

2:57

about what the what the what the

3:00

what the choice was, and what was the road

3:02

that brought you to this life.

3:04

Yeah, I love hearing people's

3:06

experiences with dance, and so

3:09

many people that

3:11

have ventured into all different, you know,

3:14

areas of whatever it is they choose to do,

3:16

have some sort of connection with it, you know.

3:18

I think it's such a an

3:20

innate part of us

3:24

as human beings. Like what we do, Like

3:26

the first thing we do when we come out of the womb is

3:28

we scream and we move our bodies.

3:30

Like that's like how.

3:31

We communicate before we have language,

3:33

we move our bodies, and

3:35

so it's it's always fascinating for me to

3:37

hear people's experience with that. And

3:40

it was something that I kind of clung

3:42

onto from a very young age, growing

3:45

up one of six children in

3:47

a single parent home, a middle

3:50

child, and already

3:52

I was very shy and introverted,

3:54

and so dance became this

3:57

very natural outlet for me to find

3:59

my voice. But

4:02

ballet, I had no introduction

4:04

to ballet at all.

4:06

I didn't know what it was.

4:07

I'd never heard classical music, and

4:10

that wouldn't come into my life until I was thirteen

4:12

years.

4:12

Old, and it was, so, what were you listening

4:14

to?

4:16

Oh Man, Well, Mariah

4:18

Carey was a huge, a

4:20

huge inspiration for me because

4:23

she her her debut album came out when

4:25

I was like seven eight years old, and

4:29

you know, it was the first time I felt.

4:30

Really connected to someone

4:33

and I felt like I could see myself there her being biracial,

4:36

and I felt like I didn't have a lot of that representation.

4:39

That's not something I could identify at that age.

4:41

It would take me years to like really recognize

4:43

why I was so fascinated by. I saw something

4:45

that you recognized, but I saw something. But

4:48

I listened to a lot of like pop and hip hop

4:50

and R and B music,

4:52

and I was creating to that. So

4:55

when I was introduced to ballet, it was so

4:57

foreign. It was at a boys

4:59

and girls club at my community center

5:01

that was like right across the street from the public

5:03

school I was attending in San Pedro, California.

5:07

And immediately

5:09

the teacher who was offering this free

5:12

ballet class at the boys

5:14

and Girls club on the basketball court in the

5:16

gym, she immediately

5:19

saw talent she said,

5:21

you're a prodigy, and I want

5:23

to bring you into my school in full scholarship.

5:26

And it was.

5:27

Shocking to me, like I didn't really

5:29

know what ballet.

5:32

Maybe I didn't hear that. How old were you?

5:34

I was thirteen?

5:35

Thirteen, Okay, so thirteen seems

5:37

kind of isn't it kind of late? Before ballet

5:40

it is old. It

5:44

has been.

5:46

Yeah, I mean similar to you know when you

5:48

think about like figure skaters or gymnasts,

5:52

you know there's, yeah, you start young, or

5:54

there's this idea that

5:57

you want to mold the body

5:59

and really ingrain this language

6:01

and technique before the

6:05

body hits puberty to be blunt

6:09

and just so that it's something that's really ingrained

6:12

and become second nature. So by the time you

6:14

become a teenager a young

6:16

adult, you're not

6:18

thinking about these things.

6:19

You're starting to work on your artistry because.

6:22

It's literally wanting to mold the actual

6:24

body of the child into into whatever

6:26

that thing happens.

6:27

To be exactly.

6:29

And you know, I think

6:32

I was built for this. I

6:34

think I was born with the body and

6:37

my body was still agile and

6:40

like really just kind of soaked

6:42

up all of this information so quickly

6:46

uh, you know, and I was called a prodigy.

6:48

And it took some uh

6:52

some.

6:52

Kind of you know, like pushing for

6:54

me to really want to commit to it because

6:57

at the time, I was on the dance team at my middle school

6:59

and that me was like so much fun. I was

7:01

dancing to like George Michael and

7:04

and I was like, I didn't really have any interest in

7:06

this thing called, you know, classical ballet

7:08

and classical music. But it wasn't until I left the

7:10

boys and Girls club and was taken into the

7:13

local ballet school that I really started

7:15

to feel empowered and

7:17

and like I was a part of something that was bigger

7:20

than me, that I had a sense

7:22

of purpose that I never experienced.

7:25

And it was like this technique

7:28

was everything I

7:31

was searching for and needed, not

7:34

not you know, not in terms

7:36

of just like physicality, but emotionally

7:39

and intellectually. Uh.

7:42

There were so many things as

7:44

a young person that I was

7:48

not what's the word I'm looking for. I

7:51

hadn't evolved in the way that I think I needed

7:53

to at that point because of what I had been exposed

7:56

to in my young life, and

7:58

ballet kind of allowed me to

8:00

like speed up and catch up to where I

8:02

needed to be in so many ways, and

8:06

that's like the beauty of art.

8:09

Yeah, well, I can one hundred percent,

8:11

uh relate to

8:14

one piece of that, and that is

8:16

that I remember, I've

8:19

actually talked about it on the show before,

8:21

but that the first time that I got

8:23

into an acting class.

8:26

You know, I was probably

8:28

about twelve or something, and

8:31

you know, preteen, and you

8:33

know, trying to be cool and trying to be tough

8:35

and you know, trying to be a

8:37

boy and do all that stuff. And

8:41

it was so freeing to me because I

8:44

could be vulnerable, I

8:46

could be I found

8:49

it, whether I even knew this

8:51

word, I found it immediately therapeutic.

8:54

So it wasn't just the creation

8:57

of the part or the

9:00

art. It was actually something

9:02

that was whether I

9:05

wasn't even cognizant of it, but I think I really

9:08

needed it to help me get

9:11

through these those years,

9:14

which are you know, they are tough years in any

9:16

situation. So it sounds like it gave you

9:19

something that was pretty deep and profound

9:21

on a personal level.

9:22

It Yeah, yeah,

9:24

I mean so much of what you're saying. I mean,

9:26

it definitely was therapeutic. It

9:29

also gave me this sense of stability

9:31

and structure that I had never experienced.

9:33

There's a lot of chaos and moving

9:36

around in my childhood and

9:39

to have something that I come to, I

9:41

know it's going to be there every day, I don't know.

9:43

It was like three point thirty my ballet class, and

9:46

I knew exactly what we're going to do, the structure of the class.

9:48

We're going to start with Pia's, go to Tandi's and Degachts

9:51

and Fondi's, and you know, there's this consistency

9:53

that's built that becomes

9:55

almost like a meditation that

9:58

allowed my body just to like release

10:01

and relax. I was such a

10:04

tense, nervous child

10:07

because of that lack of stability

10:10

and not knowing if there was going to be food on the table

10:12

or a roof over our heads, and there was something that

10:15

ballet just gave me this

10:18

this sense of safety.

10:19

Almost have you ever in

10:22

retrospect questioned

10:24

or or wondered about

10:28

ballet in terms

10:30

of those those things in terms of a child,

10:33

you know, having such a rigorous schedule, having

10:35

such a difficult, uh

10:38

you know, physically difficult workload

10:41

to accomplish every day, being

10:44

in the spotlight, all those kinds of things,

10:46

I mean it's kind of like the question of, you

10:48

know, would you let your kid play football? You

10:51

know, I mean, do you have you

10:53

ever questioned any of those things as you've grown

10:55

up or or lived your life or had

10:57

this career.

10:58

No, I really haven't.

11:00

I feel I feel very fortunate because

11:02

of the teachers

11:05

that I've had. I know,

11:08

those teachers that aren't nurturing

11:10

and that perpetuate the trauma they've

11:13

experienced, and I

11:16

don't feel that I had that experience,

11:19

which is so rare in the ballet world,

11:23

you know. But I had an environment that was

11:25

very nurturing and

11:28

that allowed me to feel like, this is fun,

11:31

this is something I want to return to.

11:33

I enjoyed the challenge.

11:35

And it just felt like beauty to

11:37

me. It didn't feel like you know, I think

11:39

people think of it often think of

11:42

discipline a discipline in.

11:44

Like a negative way.

11:46

I would absolutely put

11:48

my son in ballet, and

11:53

I you know, I mean, this was the reason for starting

11:56

the Misty Copland Foundation and

11:58

starting our signature program. Be Bold

12:01

was with this idea that when

12:03

you remove all of the stuff

12:06

at its core, ballet is

12:08

so good.

12:10

There's so many.

12:11

Incredible tools that you can take

12:13

into all areas of your life.

12:15

You know, it's not just about becoming a professional

12:17

dancer, you

12:20

know, it's it's being exposed to the to

12:22

the rigor, to the joy.

12:23

To the music, to the discipline.

12:26

You know, so many things that you

12:29

get from being an athlete and an artist,

12:31

and it's really combined

12:33

in ballet.

12:34

How old is your son?

12:37

He is almost eighteen months.

12:40

Eighteen months, Okay, so he's probably not dancing

12:42

yet, although maybe I don't know he is.

12:44

He is, Okay, so there you go.

12:46

He is.

12:54

But this brings up a question that's

12:56

always kind of amazed me, and you sort of alluded

12:59

to it a little bit. Becare as you said that you were a natural.

13:01

I mean, obviously if you were that

13:04

much of a prodigy at such a young age

13:06

and such an accelerated,

13:08

you know, kind of career. You

13:11

know, I'll

13:14

go to a of a wedding

13:17

and look around and

13:19

there'll be people and

13:21

I just can't even understand

13:24

how they could be so off about

13:26

the way they move. I'm not even

13:28

talking about like, I'm not even talking about

13:30

choices of what kind

13:33

of moves you're gonna do. I'm talking

13:35

about literal, like no

13:38

idea that there is a beat like

13:40

no idea, not even talking about clapping

13:43

on the one in the three. I'm talking about

13:46

like you'd literally not

13:49

hearing that there's any kind of rhythm

13:51

to And I wonder if there's

13:53

if that is a nature

13:56

nurture thing. I mean, I

13:58

literally, I'm not I'm not a great dancer,

14:01

but from the time I was a little kid, I

14:04

could dance. Yeah, I mean I

14:06

could. I'm I'm I'm

14:09

not, I'm not skilled whatever,

14:12

but I can definitely hear with the thing

14:14

is supposed to be? What?

14:16

What? What? What's your feeling about that. I've never spoken

14:18

to a ballet dancer about

14:20

that.

14:23

So I'm a believer that anything is possible.

14:25

Okay, I don't.

14:28

I do.

14:29

I think that it may not

14:31

look the way.

14:32

That you you imagine

14:34

it should look, but there's possibility

14:37

in growth if someone

14:39

is exposed to it and

14:41

and taught.

14:43

I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it happen.

14:45

I've seen dancers that have grown immensely,

14:47

like you know, with the right focus and intention

14:51

and nurturing people

14:53

that you know, it's like, I don't know if there's

14:55

any potential there, and then you know, I

14:57

don't know how many years later, but I do.

14:59

I think it's possible, and you believe it.

15:01

It can all be taught. It can all be taught.

15:03

I don't know about all,

15:06

but I think that everyone can learn to

15:08

dance to like the best of their ability.

15:11

But there can't there can be something learned

15:13

and improvement made. Yeah.

15:17

So yeah, so everyone

15:20

right now, get up, put

15:22

on Mariah Carey, yes,

15:25

and get to.

15:26

You have if you have a body, If

15:29

you have a body, you can dance.

15:30

Well. Listen, I mean your heart beats

15:33

in rhythm, right, your heart's beat

15:35

in rhythm. It should it should be

15:37

a natural it should be a natural thing. I

15:40

was reading that. I

15:42

was reading that you performed. Did you perform with

15:44

Taylor Swift?

15:47

Yes?

15:48

That's wild, It

15:51

was really Yeah, it was really

15:53

an.

15:53

Incredible experience to perform

15:57

with someone not only that you know, talent and successful,

15:59

but that's so gracious and

16:04

grounded, that's always

16:06

like in

16:08

a different way, in a different way, in

16:11

a different way. I mean, Prince I

16:13

you know, that's one of the closest collaborations

16:16

that I've had with another artist, and

16:18

spent many many years working with him on

16:20

and off, and he

16:23

just had such a confidence

16:25

and a way about him, and I think

16:27

that a lot of people didn't realize was how much he

16:29

gave back and

16:32

mentored and was constantly looking

16:34

for, you know,

16:37

someone young and up and coming

16:39

that he could kind

16:41

of take under his wing. I

16:44

didn't find this out until after he had passed,

16:46

but that he had been following my career

16:48

since I was about

16:51

fourteen or fifteen years old.

16:52

Wo.

16:54

Yeah, we ended.

16:56

Up collaborating for the first time. I think when I was around twenty

16:58

six twenty seven. He had

17:00

been trying to contact me and had been following

17:02

my career. But he's that way with a lot of young

17:05

artists, and it's

17:07

amazing to be able to have access

17:09

to someone like him, with his experience

17:12

and incredible gifts,

17:14

and to get to be on stage and

17:17

perform with and see it firsthandow

17:20

and learn from a genius. So

17:22

I I, you know, attribute a

17:24

lot of my growth as an artist to

17:27

the time that we spent working together.

17:29

Did you have a mentor was that with mentorship

17:32

important? I mean to you when you're

17:34

when you're.

17:35

Coming up, Yeah,

17:37

absolutely.

17:38

I Mean what's so interesting is that it's really

17:40

built in to the

17:43

to the ballet structure, you

17:45

know, so much of the

17:48

choreography and kind

17:50

of notes and things like that aren't really documented

17:54

in writing, so a

17:57

lot of what we what we learn

17:59

is pasted literally from one mouth to

18:01

the next. And so there's this kind of built

18:03

it in mentorship within the structure of

18:05

how how a ballet company or

18:08

school works. And

18:10

so my first

18:12

ballet teacher was definitely like that for

18:15

me, and it just became something that was

18:18

natural for me to kind of seek out.

18:20

Or be open to the idea of guidance.

18:24

Victoria Ral was probably one of

18:26

the first people

18:28

that really took me under her wing. Actress,

18:31

soap opera actress, and she actually started

18:33

out as a as a ballerina at

18:35

American Ballet Theater and Uh,

18:38

to have someone who

18:41

has walked in those in my shoes,

18:44

you know, as a black woman in a ballet

18:46

company where you don't see anyone who

18:48

looks like you like it was just meant a lot

18:50

just to sit down and see her, hear the stories,

18:53

have these conversations, and it's it's been

18:55

such a big part of my journey

18:57

is just having the mentors

19:00

in my life.

19:01

The first black prima ballerina

19:03

in the history of ABT

19:05

which American ballet theater, which is something

19:08

amazing to be to be so proud

19:11

of it only took them seventy five

19:13

years, but

19:15

but you were it, and

19:18

that's quite an accomplishment.

19:22

You know, you mentioned something which

19:24

is fascinating to me, and

19:26

that is that, well, there's two pieces of it. I

19:28

mean back to I guess football is

19:30

on my mind, but back to you know, athletes

19:34

they use their bodies and

19:38

they have to you know, sacrifice

19:40

their bodies in those kinds of ways.

19:43

But what's going on in their face? Maybe

19:47

in baseball, but it is basically

19:49

not the story. It's all

19:51

about this machine, whereas

19:55

in ballet that's

19:58

a big, big piece. Is this

20:02

lack of a better word, acting component,

20:04

you know, the emotional component. It's not

20:06

just you know, how well you hear

20:09

the music of portraiteaus or how high you leap any

20:11

of those things. And

20:13

my question is you've

20:16

performed, you know, countless

20:18

ballets that are choreographed,

20:21

and the choreography I

20:24

don't even know if this is true, but it's written

20:26

down correct, like there's an

20:29

actual notation or there's a way to write

20:31

it, like there is music of what the

20:33

choreography is. Yes, but

20:35

are you how to what extent can

20:38

you make choices? So

20:40

like the whole thing is

20:42

is, you know, I get a characters written

20:44

down a page, but then it's all about the choices

20:46

that I make, and maybe the choices that I make

20:49

between take one and Take

20:51

four, or also that if I'm doing

20:53

a play, the choices that I'm gonna make on a

20:55

Tuesday night or a Wednesday afternoon change

20:57

all the time. So I'm wondering, when you're in the

21:00

in the heat of it, how much are those choices

21:02

you're allowed to make.

21:04

Yeah, that's a great question. So

21:06

there is dance notation, but

21:09

it's like such a rare art

21:12

and we rarely use it. But again, like

21:14

I was saying, it's literally just passed down from

21:17

uh, from dancer to dancer and whoever is

21:19

whoever owns the ballet and sets

21:21

the ballet, so they literally sit you.

21:23

In a room and dance from

21:26

there.

21:27

Well, the choreographer is long

21:29

long dead, so with a lot

21:31

of these ballets, so it's really passed

21:33

on from like ballerina to like that's that you

21:36

know, it was it was created on them and then it was passed

21:38

on to another ballerina to another Valerias. It's literally

21:41

handed down like that. But

21:44

within that so you're you're taught

21:46

exact choreography that you

21:49

have to do. Like there's there's no real wiggle

21:52

room within these, you

21:54

know, ballets that were created in like the

21:56

late eighteen hundreds. But

21:58

when it comes to care, sure, like

22:00

you do have a choice in how you

22:02

approach certain things.

22:06

Also depending on who's setting the ballet.

22:08

So there are some some uh former

22:11

dancers that will come and

22:13

have kind of ownership over what the ballet will

22:15

look like and

22:17

and they don't really give you a lot of space.

22:20

But for me personally, I

22:22

have often done a lot of research

22:25

outside of the ballet company

22:28

and gotten coaching

22:31

in terms of like theater acting outside of American

22:33

Ballet theater, and will

22:36

make choices in the moment on stage when

22:39

it's too late for anyone to say anything to me.

22:41

Yeah, I like I like

22:44

because there's no take too, there's

22:47

no take. That's that's that's

22:49

the way to be. I like I like that a lot.

22:52

That's that's that's awesome. Tell

22:54

me about the Flowers movie. I mean, you're you

22:56

have you I love me just say

22:58

You're doing so many other things besides

23:01

dancing films

23:04

and books, and I think children's books as well,

23:06

and yeah, you know, all kinds of

23:09

the charitable work which we're going to

23:11

get into. But I'm curious about the Flowers

23:13

movie.

23:15

Yeah, I mean it's a great segue

23:18

in terms of what we were just talking about, because what's

23:20

been so fascinating stepping

23:22

into this space. So I have a production company

23:24

that I started with my best friend who is a former

23:27

ballerino.

23:27

We met at American Ballet.

23:28

Theater and she transitioned after

23:31

only a year of dancing professionally into

23:35

writing and producing in television and that's what she's

23:37

been doing for almost twenty years. And

23:40

so we created this production company and.

23:43

To transition into being

23:45

creative.

23:45

In this space, you

23:48

know, I have so much I have to take much

23:50

more initiative, and I have much more

23:53

agency and creative

23:56

power and freedom in a way

23:58

that.

23:58

Like I never experienced in my

24:01

field.

24:01

So with this, this is

24:03

our first project that really has come to

24:05

fruition.

24:06

It's a short film.

24:07

It's an art activism film all Flower

24:10

and I produced it and came

24:13

up with the concept with our executive producer

24:15

and Nelson George and a star in

24:18

it. And you

24:20

know, it was just such a

24:22

unique experience for me to be acting

24:26

on camera without words.

24:29

It's all through I guess my

24:31

type, movement and dance and

24:36

you know, the just the differences of what

24:38

you need to do when you're in

24:41

front of a camera versus you know, the

24:43

Metropolitan Opera house and projecting

24:46

to the top tier of the theater.

24:49

So that that experience was

24:53

challenging, but also, you

24:55

know, I love to have like an artistic

24:57

and physical challenge.

24:59

So it was such a cool experience.

25:01

But to use my art and to use

25:03

my voice in my platform to highlight

25:06

and focus on a community that at

25:09

the time when we filmed it was during the pandemic,

25:11

was you know, is really struggling Oakland,

25:13

California, you know, gentrification

25:16

in the housing crisis, and then homelessness

25:18

and houselessness in that community. So

25:20

to be able to

25:22

shine a light, highlight the artists

25:25

in that community and

25:27

tell a story that I

25:29

think is important.

25:30

For them was just a really,

25:32

really cool experience.

25:35

I got to check that out. That sounds that

25:37

sounds amazing. I would love

25:39

to see that.

25:46

If you are inspired by today's episode, please

25:48

join us in supporting six degrees dot

25:50

org by texting the word Bacon to

25:53

seven zero seven zero seven

25:55

zero. Your gift empowers us to continue

25:57

to produce programs that highlight the incredible

26:00

work of everyday heroes, well also

26:02

enabling us to provide essential resources

26:04

to those that need it the most. Once again,

26:07

text b a con

26:10

to seven zero seven zero seven

26:12

zero or visit six degrees

26:14

dot org to learn more.

26:18

Okay, well, I think this is a good spot to Welcome

26:20

to the show, Karen Campbell. Karen

26:23

is the executive director of

26:26

Misty's Foundation, the Misty Copeland Foundation.

26:29

Hi, Karen, thanks for being here today with

26:31

us.

26:32

Hi Kevin, thank you.

26:34

Tell us about be bold.

26:36

It stands for Ballet Explorations,

26:39

Ballet offers leadership development

26:42

and we're actually celebrating one

26:45

year anniversary of

26:47

this program and it's after school

26:50

for children five to twelve years

26:52

old, so there's a big age range

26:55

to learn ballet an affordable,

26:58

accessible and fun way. So

27:00

we have twelve week cycles

27:03

twice a week, one hour at

27:05

each class, and it's two teaching

27:07

artists and a musician. And Misty

27:10

had the idea that she wanted it to be fun

27:13

and for kids to learn in

27:15

a less traditional way, still

27:18

structured, but less traditional. So having African

27:21

drums or bass guitar player

27:23

or keyboards, you know, we

27:25

do across the board

27:27

like different instruments and

27:30

they during the course of the class. What's so

27:32

amazing, and this is Misty's vision,

27:35

was that each class would start

27:37

with community agreements, so

27:39

the teaching artists and the children

27:42

would talk about how they're

27:44

what they want to have happen in the class, and

27:46

what shouldn't happen, so things

27:49

that give them agency. Are

27:51

they feeling comfortable, Are

27:53

they feeling welcomed? Are they

27:55

feeling good? To continue during

27:58

the course of the class, and they'll do a circle

28:00

up in the beginning and talk about how they're feeling,

28:02

like am I feeling cloudy today? Am I feeling

28:04

sunny today? So that's how each

28:07

class starts, and it's really important

28:09

for a couple of reasons. One, kids

28:12

during COVID had no

28:14

opportunity for after school

28:17

obviously or for often

28:19

expressing their feelings, especially this

28:22

you know community that we're working with, and

28:25

then for them to be able to work

28:28

with these teaching artists and musicians

28:31

each the framework that we're

28:33

we've created, we're calling it a framework,

28:35

not a curriculum, because we're basically

28:38

flying the plane as

28:40

we're building it. And

28:43

so we're working with a child developmental

28:45

psychologist and a DEIA consultant

28:48

to determine the best ways

28:50

to work with these children who

28:53

have had trauma during before

28:55

COVID, certainly during

28:58

and now afterwards, you know, finding

29:00

a way to find their voice

29:03

and to feel like they have

29:05

something that gives them structure. To

29:08

Misty's point, ballet has

29:10

that ability to give structure and

29:13

kind of life for them outside

29:15

of their lives, the lives that

29:17

they've had, and we know that after school

29:19

programming in particular, you

29:21

know, they often don't have that opportunity.

29:25

There's so much about that that I love. First

29:28

off, the fact that the

29:30

Misty you talked about the

29:32

experience that you had and going

29:36

into this ballet

29:38

class and trying to get a hold of the chaos

29:41

in your life and feeling

29:43

that. I also

29:45

think that I

29:48

feel like we don't even really

29:50

have had We haven't even quite reckoned

29:52

with what COVID must have been like for

29:56

children and

29:59

or can used to bay or whatever. My

30:02

brother's got God right now, you

30:05

know, I don't know. I

30:07

I think that the it

30:10

is so so interesting

30:12

to focus on on on that what

30:14

that trauma is and and having

30:17

to deal with it, but also not

30:21

not just doing the dancing, but coming in

30:23

and talking about you know what, what

30:26

what's going on for you and what you want to do

30:28

with that day. It's it's all great. And

30:31

I love the idea that there's a live

30:33

musician because you

30:35

know, there's nothing you could put on

30:38

the best recording of an

30:40

African drama and it's

30:42

just not going to be the same as the

30:45

way it feels to see someone

30:47

hitting that thing in the in the room. I mean, I

30:49

think that's really that sounds

30:51

great. How do you how do you where

30:54

do you put these schools? How do you find

30:56

the schools? How does it spread?

30:59

Well, you know, we started because Misty

31:01

started at Boys and Girls Club and has

31:04

a relationship continuing relationship

31:06

with them. We started at Boys and Girls

31:08

clubs in the Bronx and in Harlem

31:11

because they had the children

31:13

they already had after school. They often

31:16

had the facility like a dance studio that we

31:18

could use and sometimes they even

31:20

had teaching artists that we can employ

31:22

as well. So that was the

31:24

beginning of it and now in the spring

31:27

we had about set We're in seven sites now

31:29

this fall we're going to be in fourteen

31:32

sites. So we've grown

31:34

kind of quickly, been in a very

31:37

organic and wonderful

31:39

way, and through our network

31:41

of we've been advisory council of

31:44

dance professionals, dance teachers,

31:48

people who we could go to in

31:50

order to find these teaching artists, and

31:54

that's been the most amazing thing to

31:56

be able to grow it pretty quickly. One

31:59

of the other things that we found was that we needed

32:01

it in the spring, we found that we needed it to be more

32:04

ballet focused, and Nisty

32:06

really thought that was important. So

32:08

the way the framework is set up now it's more

32:11

ballet focused instead of movement,

32:13

but it also continues to be impactful.

32:17

So the developmental psychologist

32:19

has done an impact study for us already

32:22

so that we can see what we're doing right

32:24

and what we need to improve. And

32:26

one of the things that we need to we're

32:28

hoping to improve is to get more boys involved

32:31

in the program, which you can imagine

32:35

at the beginning of each session, the

32:37

program director, Cindy Folgar and

32:39

I we go to each site

32:41

and talk to the caregivers so we

32:43

get some buy in so they understand what we're

32:45

doing because often you can imagine

32:48

like ballet, what does that mean to a lot

32:50

of people in the community and certainly to boys.

32:53

But we were really lucky that this fall

32:56

in our training. We just did a three day training

32:58

for our new teaching artist. We have six

33:00

men of color, which is amazing,

33:03

which means that we can have more outreach,

33:05

hopefully for boys in the

33:07

community and just a way to explain

33:09

to them. When you're talking about Eli Manning, there's

33:12

so many I was just talking to Alan

33:15

Houston, who's former basketball player,

33:17

one of his philanthropic

33:19

people.

33:20

Yeah.

33:21

Well, I don't know if anyone everyone in your audience,

33:23

Oh good, good, good, But

33:27

but we were talking about how athletes, professional

33:30

athletes really use ballet often

33:32

and it's something that it's important for,

33:35

you know, young kids to understand. So it's just a

33:37

way to buy and for them to understand their

33:40

There are avenues too out for

33:42

outreach in a lot of different ways.

33:44

So it's the music.

33:45

It's a lot of different things.

33:46

That's great. I love that this is

33:49

This is sounds like such a such a such

33:51

a great program. Were you a dancer? How

33:54

did you get involved? Did you know each other?

33:57

No? We it's we feel

33:59

like I feel like I've known her for whatever, and

34:01

we've only known each other for about six months.

34:03

I've only been working at the foundation.

34:05

It's only been six months.

34:06

Oh my gosh, it feels like a long time.

34:09

Yeah.

34:10

Yeah. I was at Alvin Ailey before

34:12

starting with Misty, so I was

34:14

there for eight years, which

34:17

is an amazing place. And actually

34:19

my son when you talk about going a wedding,

34:22

my son danced at a Ley before

34:25

I worked there.

34:26

Oh wow, wow, yeah, okay,

34:28

yeah, it was.

34:29

It was, you know, really important for me to

34:33

to find a team that was diverse,

34:36

and it was really important that I had a CEO,

34:38

you know, an executive director that was there was a

34:41

woman of color, and to

34:44

find Carr. I mean, everyone at

34:46

Alvin a Lee comes up to me and they're like, why did you

34:48

take her from us? And I'm

34:50

like, sorry, guys, we're

34:53

doing we're doing important work too. But

34:56

you know, it's really important

34:58

that the people that the

35:00

children are seeing that they

35:02

can see themselves through through the people

35:04

that are in these leadership positions.

35:06

And you know, in starting

35:09

this program, it's like I wanted to

35:11

take again what I was saying

35:13

earlier, like ballet at its core and all the incredible

35:17

elements of it and strip away all

35:20

of the other stuff that has

35:23

created, i think even just in like film

35:26

and media and television, this negative connotation

35:28

and these negative tropes about what it is

35:31

and get back to what it can

35:33

do for a human being and what it can do for a child

35:35

and what it did for me. And

35:38

so you know, it's important that we built

35:41

a framework that made sense for these

35:43

communities. So we're not bringing this traditional

35:45

European art form into these black and

35:47

brown communities, but we're creating it

35:49

and really curating it for them.

35:52

So it's music, it's musicians, it's teaching

35:54

artists to look like them. It's talking

35:56

about the history, the black and brown

35:59

history that we're not taught in, that we

36:01

don't see in ballet history books, so

36:03

that these dancers can say like, oh, there

36:05

have been people that look like me who do this.

36:07

There have been men, there have been black men

36:10

that have done this and have been successful.

36:13

So all of those elements were really important,

36:17

and in the end, it was like, we need to make

36:19

this fun because again it's like this

36:21

this idea that ballet is boring and

36:23

ballet is slow, and getting

36:26

back to like using this technique

36:28

and bringing people together in a community

36:30

through movement and making it fun

36:32

for them.

36:34

That's that's fantastic you

36:37

mentioned, and I'm curious about this that

36:40

you have learned or decided

36:43

to slide the

36:45

program a little bit away

36:47

from just movement and more towards

36:50

ballet. So I'm just curious about that

36:52

specifically.

36:54

Yeah, you know, initially when we started

36:56

out, we partnered up

36:58

with an incredible organization

37:00

called India, the National Dance Institute

37:05

that was founded by former

37:07

principal dancer of New York City

37:09

Ballet, Jacques dem Bois, and

37:12

he really created this incredible

37:15

fun way of introducing dance to

37:18

kids in school in this

37:20

incredible fun way and an amazing structure.

37:23

And so I went to them and I was like, how do we do

37:25

this with ballet?

37:26

And you know, in our in our first

37:29

you know, pilot, it

37:31

was definitely kind

37:34

of thin on the ballet and much more about

37:36

creating this fun movement environment.

37:38

And you know, once.

37:40

I saw it on several classes,

37:43

I realized that we could still

37:45

have that concept, but to

37:48

insert a little bit more structure

37:50

of the ballet technique so that if

37:52

these dancers, any of them, wanted

37:54

to go on and go into a school, a professional

37:57

school, they would have a really legitimate

38:00

ballet base to work

38:02

from, so that it wasn't you know that

38:04

they were saying, oh, I was in this ballet class,

38:06

and their Misty copelit, and then they don't really have

38:09

any any real language and

38:11

idea of the technique.

38:13

And and we've found that we can

38:15

combine all of those things. It's

38:18

amazing what we can fit in in an hour as well.

38:21

Let me ask you both this, what is it about,

38:24

uh, you know, reaching out

38:27

two kids to

38:31

give them uh

38:33

uh, this kind of these kinds of outlets,

38:35

to to mentor to give

38:37

them an opportunity to do something outside

38:40

of what what their their life or their environment.

38:43

What is it that you think was

38:45

in both of your upbringings

38:48

that kind of steered you towards wanting

38:50

to do this kind of work? Karen,

38:54

Karen, I'll.

38:54

Start Yeah, no, no, go ahead, Karen,

39:00

I have said to Misty when I got

39:02

this job. I have had very

39:05

a varied career. I started

39:07

out film production, and I

39:10

actually like my first.

39:11

Major movie was uh, Spike Lee's

39:14

Malcolm X.

39:15

And I was a production.

39:16

Coordinator, So auspicious

39:19

beginning.

39:20

Yeah, Well, I worked a

39:22

paramount for a few years

39:25

before, but that was my first production cordator job.

39:27

Wow.

39:28

But to have the uh

39:30

to have the experience of working in the film,

39:33

and especially when I was in it at

39:35

that time for women, it was very challenging

39:38

and to be a person of color and

39:40

then ending up going

39:42

into fundraising and ultimately

39:45

ending up with Nisty

39:48

and this foundation.

39:50

To me, it was it's it's a.

39:52

Huge thing to be able to give children

39:55

this idea that there are things

39:57

that you can do outside of your

40:00

world. We're going to show you what that looks

40:02

like, and that we can really open

40:04

up a world for them that they wouldn't have

40:06

And I feel like that is so important.

40:09

That's so meaningful when you go in today's classes

40:12

and we haven't only

40:14

been teaching them about dance, but we've

40:16

started getting tickets for different

40:18

things, for them to have the opportunities with their families

40:21

to go see different performances and

40:23

to get out in the wide, wider world, which

40:26

I think for so many kids coming

40:28

from where they come from, it's really

40:30

important.

40:32

Love that.

40:34

Yeah, I mean I've been on the receiving

40:36

end of that for you

40:39

know, so much of my childhood

40:42

in terms of like having teachers that

40:45

invested in me and what it's

40:47

done for me, and so it's it's

40:49

like a no brainer. It's like, oh, I need

40:51

to do this, Like I've had that experience

40:54

and I've seen what it's done for

40:56

me, and I feel like I've

40:58

been given this opportunity and this platform

41:02

in order to go back into these communities

41:05

and give them what

41:07

I've learned and what I've experienced. And

41:11

yeah, it's just again, it's like a

41:13

no brainer to be

41:15

able to continue that cycle

41:19

because of all the incredible things I've

41:21

gained by being exposed to this art form

41:23

and having incredible teachers

41:26

and mentors along the way.

41:28

That's awesome. I love that, you know. It's

41:30

funny. I hadn't even thought about this when I was getting

41:33

ready for this episode.

41:36

But when I was a kid, well

41:38

it was probably about the probably

41:41

about fourteen or fifteen, I

41:45

got a summer scholarship

41:48

to this thing called the Pennsylvania Governor School

41:50

for the Arts, where you auditioned

41:53

and then you went out to this you

41:56

know thing for a few weeks in the summer you

41:58

could study art. And one of the one

42:00

of the arts they had was

42:02

they had music and they had acting, of course, I was there

42:04

for the acting and one of the arts they

42:06

had was ballet,

42:09

and I made

42:11

friends with this kid who

42:14

was a ballet dancer. In fact, I think

42:16

that summer he decided to become

42:18

a ballet dancer. I don't think he'd ever done it. He

42:21

was he was an athlete, and you

42:23

know, and just like

42:26

took to it. And he

42:28

got a scholarship to the Pennsylvania

42:30

Ballet and came back and lived

42:35

in my house. My

42:37

mom. My mom took him in and he lived

42:39

in my house for that

42:42

entire year while he studied

42:44

at the Pennsylvania Ballet. And I hadn't really

42:46

thought about this, but you know, I

42:48

think up to

42:51

that point, I hadn't really

42:55

thought of that. You know, I kind of thought of

42:57

it as something that girls do basically, you know what

42:59

I mean, you know, that's that was that's kind of the thing.

43:01

I mean, you were mentioning not only having

43:04

uh men, but but men of color be

43:07

there and and be visible and

43:09

and and you know, be seen and with

43:11

all that strength and grace

43:14

and you know, and and

43:16

it really did actually it was pretty

43:20

it was. It kind of you

43:23

know, stuck with me. And and I think it in

43:25

some ways, you know, probably

43:28

adjusted my ideas of what what

43:30

a dance is or what a dancer

43:32

is. I didn't know anything about ballet. I mean I to me, ballet

43:35

was you know, just not something

43:37

that was on my radar me. But

43:40

but that's that's that's great that you

43:43

guys are doing that. I think it sounds like a fantastic

43:45

program. How can people learn

43:47

about it or reach out or or or help

43:50

you know, this is this is the moment for

43:52

the call to action to go to.

43:54

Our website and you can read more,

43:57

learn a little more about or contact

44:00

if you want to learn more. Come

44:02

to see a class, Kevin.

44:04

We love to have you come and see a class.

44:06

I would love to come see a class. I really would

44:08

honestly, Oh my.

44:09

Gosh, we would love that.

44:10

Yeah.

44:11

Follow us on Instagram as well,

44:14

Missy Copeland Foundation, Right, that

44:17

would be fun.

44:17

I was wondering if you ever had people come check it

44:20

out.

44:20

Yeah, we have guests, so it

44:23

would be awesome to yeah to.

44:25

Have you all right, just don't expect me

44:28

to show anybody any moves. That

44:31

ship is sale.

44:32

I don't know.

44:35

Right down to all

44:37

right, Thank you guys so much, thanks for being

44:39

here. It's great talking with you.

44:42

Thank you so much for your time. It's been

44:44

fantastic.

44:45

Thank you.

44:48

Hey, guys, thanks for listening to another episode

44:51

of Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon. If you want

44:53

to learn more about the Misty

44:55

Copeland Foundation and all the work

44:58

that they are up to, head over to their

45:00

website Misty Copelandfoundation

45:02

dot org. Mistycopeland

45:05

Foundation dot org. You define

45:07

all the links in our show notes. If

45:09

you like what you hear, make

45:12

sure you subscribe to the show. To this

45:14

show, tune into the rest of our episodes.

45:16

I think you're gonna like them. You can find Six

45:18

Degrees with Kevin Bacon on iHeartRadio,

45:21

Apple Podcasts, or wherever

45:24

you get your podcasts. I'll

45:26

see you next time.