0:00

Everybody.

0:01

Uh boy, today is a guest that

0:03

I deeply respect

0:06

and admire.

0:07

This person.

0:08

We've known each other for a

0:10

lot of years. She's

0:12

taken on just such unforgettable

0:15

characters in films like Freaky Friday,

0:17

Halloween, everything Everywhere,

0:19

all at once and Wow.

0:22

Her performance on the recent

0:24

TV hit The Bear was spectacular.

0:28

And if you don't know who I'm talking about, you may live

0:30

under a rock. Jamie

0:32

Lee Curtis is coming

0:34

to the show.

0:35

Folks, lean in. I'm

0:37

glad you're here.

0:46

Jamie Lee Curtis, Thank you so much

0:49

for being here. Thank you for getting here before

0:52

the actual host. I mean, let

0:55

me ask you something. Do you exhibit

0:58

this level of professionalism on a

1:00

movie set? Are you one of those and this is

1:02

an absolute serious question. Are you one of

1:04

those people that comes to work on

1:07

time.

1:08

And knows their lines? And

1:11

uh, you know is are

1:14

you?

1:15

Well? You're giving actors a really

1:17

bad name. Cavin Macon, Hello,

1:21

friend, Hello, see you. I

1:24

will tell you this, and

1:26

I'm only telling you this because I read

1:28

it when it actually

1:31

happened. So I was in a movie called Knives

1:33

Out movie, a

1:36

great movie. I was, by the way, a replacement

1:38

part and meaning

1:41

that there was somebody else that was supposed to do it, and then

1:43

they somehow dropped out, which often

1:45

happens in movies. And then

1:48

yes, and then I stepped in and

1:51

had this wonderful experience with Ryan

1:53

Johnson. But at the end

1:55

of the movie, you know, the movie was great

1:58

and people loved it. It was one of those wonderful

2:00

things where people just fell in love with this movie.

2:03

And somebody asked, Ryan, who

2:05

is your MVP of

2:08

the cast, and you know, it's a big cast, great,

2:10

great people, and he said Jamie

2:12

And they said why. He said, well, she

2:16

was always on set even

2:18

when she wasn't supposed to be in a scene.

2:21

And he said, she literally sat

2:23

at the kitchen table in this house from

2:25

six am until we wrapped every

2:28

day. And he said, so I ended up

2:30

putting her in scenes she wasn't originally

2:32

supposed to be in, and that was

2:34

what he said. So, yes, I

2:36

am that person who is at work before

2:39

everybody else, and I like

2:41

to stay until everybody is finished.

2:44

I can't tell you how much I admire

2:46

that.

2:46

I'm I'm usually

2:48

kind of the same way, and I think part of it

2:50

is that I just like

2:53

to be there.

2:53

Man. I mean, I just that takes.

2:55

About but that's I love it. I

2:58

love this job. And the truth is I

3:01

am a freelance actor, which

3:03

means I'm an unemployed actor for ninety

3:06

Like the amount of time I actually

3:09

get to do the thing that I

3:11

am known for that I love doing.

3:13

That is my art, that is my work is

3:16

very very small. So when

3:18

I have an opportunity to be on a set, I

3:21

want to be on the set. I want to

3:23

watch the whole thing. I want to know

3:25

everybody. I want to know what everybody is doing.

3:27

And that to me is as

3:30

much a part of it as it is

3:32

to just do the part where I'm on the behind

3:34

the you know, in front of the lens and whatever

3:36

the scene is. So it's really it's

3:39

it's it's actually crucial to me.

3:41

And you talk about the amount of time that

3:43

we spend not acting, which is, you

3:46

know a lot of we spend a lot of

3:48

time doing other stuff.

3:49

But some people I know, I

3:51

was going to tell music who

3:54

some people I know play music with

3:56

goats with their wife, which if that doesn't

3:59

annoy anybody else watching this, you

4:01

know, it's like by the way, the Island,

4:04

It's like the David Beckham

4:06

documentary when he dances

4:08

to Islands in the Stream with his wife in

4:10

that bullshit. But

4:14

I mean, can you imagine, Kevin?

4:16

I said to Christopher, I said, Chris,

4:19

what would you do if I played

4:21

Islands in the Stream and then started

4:24

to dance and asked you to dance with

4:26

me? You and your wife get

4:29

a freaking room, Kevin Bacon,

4:33

you have.

4:34

No idea I would.

4:36

I would give anything

4:39

to see you and Chris in the

4:41

kitchen.

4:44

First of all, Chris

4:46

Hope for the uninformed,

4:49

here direct in a movie that Kevin.

4:50

Is so great in is least well

4:53

known movie, and it

4:55

really.

4:55

It needs to not be anymore. It

4:58

needs to be.

4:58

People need to see this movie because if

5:00

anybody wants it's a scripted

5:02

movie.

5:03

It's true. It's it's different. It's different than the

5:05

other unbelievably brilliant movies

5:07

he's made.

5:08

But I would always I always

5:10

tell people this is a

5:12

an out and out comedy. I have very

5:15

I'm a small piece of it because I'm really

5:17

just the straight man. But if you want

5:19

to know what Hollywood really

5:22

is, this is the movie to

5:24

really understand Hollywood.

5:27

He just it's called by

5:29

the way, it's called the big

5:31

picture, and it's

5:34

about movie making and a young

5:36

filmmaker who Kevin plays. So yes,

5:38

if you can imagine Kevin Christopher

5:41

Christopher Virtue. When I said island's in the

5:43

stream, he said, what's that?

5:47

Then you go really really.

5:49

Like, I have to start to sing it. You don't want

5:51

to hear me sing. It's awful. Anyway, you and

5:53

your wife can get a room and

5:56

stay in it for a long long time.

5:58

Please we listen.

6:00

We want we like to get well.

6:03

We're you know, being not we're

6:05

out of work for a long time with this strike, and

6:07

you know it's like you're looking for something to do, to

6:10

just be creative, to.

6:11

Make something other

6:13

people paint, you know, paint.

6:16

My husband is playing golf right now.

6:19

You to play golf.

6:20

You just you to make love

6:22

all day every day with

6:25

those watching and without it's

6:27

just you. People make

6:30

love in every room in your house and

6:32

you want to and you singing

6:35

while you make love like it's

6:37

best fascinated

6:40

by you people.

6:42

Okay, enough about our love life. I

6:45

want to know how it feels. Because

6:48

you mentioned being out

6:50

of you know, spending so much of our time

6:52

not working. You're I

6:55

would say, arguably busier

6:57

than you've been in your entire

6:59

career at this point in your life, and

7:02

we are at the same point in our lives and

7:06

you know, chronologically, and I

7:08

wonder how that feels. I mean, there's

7:10

a lot of people that are pumping the brakes now, you

7:12

know, there's a lot of people that aren't

7:14

looking down the road, that are saying, you know, maybe

7:16

I'll just kind of do something else or try something

7:18

else.

7:19

But you are on fire and

7:22

it's so cool to watch as

7:24

a as a fan. Thank you.

7:26

I'm yeah.

7:29

And you know, the thing,

7:32

as we were talking about the fact that that we

7:34

don't work very often, you know, actors

7:37

are incredibly patient. You

7:40

have to be really patient and

7:42

understand that you

7:45

just need to suit up and show up and

7:47

do the work whatever it is, whatever

7:49

the job is, to the best of your ability, to

7:52

sort of create a sense of community

7:54

with the people you're doing it with. As

7:56

I like to say, leave the place better for

7:58

you being there. Leave.

8:01

Then months and months and months go by,

8:04

sometimes years go by, and

8:06

then these pieces of work come out

8:08

and either they're heralded and

8:11

people love them, or they're horribly

8:13

received and people ship on them and

8:16

say that it's the worst thing they've ever seen, and

8:19

then you feel bad, and

8:22

then you go on to the next thing, and you just keep

8:24

doing that, and the patience

8:27

is that it

8:30

is way out of my hints. I

8:34

have opened myself to my life

8:37

in every aspect of it, philanthropically,

8:42

emotionally, spiritually, maritally,

8:46

maternally, artistically,

8:48

and I have

8:50

been very lucky because I've had

8:53

good fortune and things have panned

8:55

out, and then all of a sudden, you take that

8:57

little bit of success and then you try to ill

9:00

done it. And at this point,

9:02

I now get to be a producer. I

9:04

get to have a company. I get to buy

9:07

material and see it developed into

9:09

things. I get to act in things. I get

9:11

to work with people who I

9:13

would dream of working with my entire

9:16

early life and understood

9:18

that that was probably never going to happen. So

9:20

I'm trying to just stay in the grace of

9:22

the moment and have no expectations.

9:25

And certainly this last year

9:28

was not in my plan.

9:31

It was not something I thought of.

9:33

And it's funny because yesterday I

9:36

have a publicist who has

9:38

been my friend and publicist since I

9:40

was twenty one. Wow, I'm

9:42

sixty five and she's

9:44

still a publicist. Her name is Heidi Schaeffer,

9:47

and Heidi

9:50

and my agent called me last

9:53

summer. Well, no, wait, hold

9:55

on, this is twenty three. The

9:58

Oscars were in March, so

10:01

that's twenty three. So in the summer of

10:03

twenty two, I

10:06

was in Idaho, where Chris and I live, where

10:09

we don't make love in the bar like you two.

10:13

We don't have goats, so

10:16

you know, it's also there's nothing similar about

10:18

us, although we like each other and we do

10:21

fish. And

10:23

the phone rang and she's, you know, was

10:26

Heidi and my agent and

10:28

I like, the agent's assistant

10:30

said, I have Heidi Schaeffer and Rick

10:32

Krutzman for you. And I was just like, what,

10:36

why are you bothering me? What? What do you want?

10:38

What do you want? And they said, well, we want

10:40

to talk to you about the campaign. I said,

10:42

what campaign? What are you talking about?

10:45

They said, well, you know, a twenty four smooth I was

10:47

like, oh, stop, shut up. So I'm

10:49

telling you it was the last thing I ever thought that would happen.

10:52

And the fact that this year has happened, and then the work

10:54

I get to do because of it has just

10:56

opened me up in a way. To answer your

10:58

lovely question. Open wide,

11:02

open heart, chakra, open

11:05

spirit, open, and you

11:07

know, open to receive the

11:10

art that I get to do now.

11:12

I love that. I love that, I mean.

11:14

But what's interesting also is that it's

11:18

you're talking about being open

11:20

in your life and not and not burdening

11:24

yourself with some kind of expectations.

11:26

But it's also being open

11:29

in your work,

11:31

which is something that comes

11:33

from a lifetime

11:35

spent doing it. And it's

11:38

so clear in the work. I mean, the Bear, as

11:40

I've told you, I've reached out to you after

11:44

I saw it, and it was it was just

11:46

truly spectacular, reals

11:49

so much kind of kind of work.

11:51

And you've always been so great, and it's so

11:54

great when you see somebody that you've always

11:56

loved as a performer and

11:59

then you know, they

12:01

just fucking surprise you. You know what I

12:03

mean, They just they just you

12:06

know, come out and you know, they just

12:08

hit you with it with a right hook and you go,

12:11

WHOA.

12:12

I mean, because yes, but.

12:14

Your daughter and

12:17

I share something as

12:19

you.

12:19

Know, I know you do.

12:20

Yeah, she has taken

12:23

over the mantle beautifully

12:25

of Scream Queen. She's a very

12:27

talented young woman and she will tell you what

12:29

I've known all along, which

12:32

is horror movies

12:35

demand deep,

12:38

deep expressions

12:40

of sadness, fear,

12:44

tension. But

12:46

you know all of the sort of angsty

12:51

performer tools

12:53

and the demands them of.

12:55

You had a nano second

12:58

at four thirty in the morning, in

13:01

the pouring rain, covered

13:03

in mud and blood, and then

13:06

they roll the camera and demand

13:08

in that second with

13:12

no other impetus. There

13:14

is no you know, the Bear is a

13:16

play. The Bear is written

13:19

like a play, it's acted like

13:21

a play. We didn't rehearse it. Basically,

13:25

we ran it so we would know where we would stand.

13:27

And then they just said rolling and

13:29

handing old cameras allowed it

13:32

to be totally inflow.

13:34

So of course the boats

13:36

are going to rise because the writing

13:39

is so extraordinary. But remember

13:41

horror movies, often the writing isn't

13:43

so extraordinary, and

13:46

you don't have the play, you

13:48

don't have all of it. You

13:51

have your skill to

13:54

carry you in those moments. And your

13:56

daughter can really

13:58

attest to this, and you see,

14:01

it's an un it's

14:03

an unappreciated genre

14:07

of performing. And I've

14:09

been doing it for a long, long

14:11

long time, and I am

14:13

ripped my guts out

14:16

on those movies and nobody

14:18

pays that attention. They just

14:20

don't care because the movies

14:22

themselves have whatever the

14:25

the feeling is and so not. Not that you

14:27

are supposed to pay attention to the skill,

14:30

but that work

14:33

I've been doing since I was nineteen years old.

14:35

Well that was my first movie, Halloween.

14:38

Yeah, that Halloween.

14:40

Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean people, you

14:43

know, I've done my share of horror, and people will

14:45

say why do you like it?

14:47

And why would you keep coming back to it, as

14:49

though you know, why wouldn't you

14:52

only do something else, you know, action or

14:55

family dramas or whatever. And I

14:57

always say, because it's because the stakes are

15:00

so high in horror, Like it's always

15:02

life and death. And it's like when

15:04

you when you get to play like to me, when

15:06

you get to play that that that's always the challenging

15:09

stuff. Not to mention, I

15:11

mean when when you know you were

15:13

so sweet to reach out to associate, you

15:16

know, after Smile came out and when

15:18

she was in the middle of it, it

15:20

was we got a chance to actually

15:23

discuss, uh, which is something not something

15:25

that we had done too much up until that point,

15:27

Like what it was like to act in a horror move

15:29

and they said, the hardest thing about it, honey,

15:32

is that every day you're going in and you got to do a new version

15:34

of being scared. And

15:37

that is a that's like a that's a tough

15:39

thing to do in a in a in a you know,

15:41

hour and forty minute movie. It's it's

15:43

it's a lot, it's a lot of challenges.

15:46

I'm speaking of her. I don't want to do the podcast

15:48

about her. Look you know, look, she doesn't

15:50

need I want to do this.

15:53

I adore her.

15:54

As you know, you've

16:01

been very vocal about

16:04

this kind of nebo baby.

16:07

Concept. Yeah.

16:08

Well, and and uh, you

16:10

know, I'm just wondering, you know how,

16:13

because you can relate to it clearly.

16:14

I'm just wondering how you how

16:17

you feel about it.

16:17

I mean, what what what's your what's your I

16:20

mean, what's your what's your take on on that?

16:22

That concept?

16:23

It's been the same since day

16:25

one. The reason why it just kind

16:27

of came up a lot was because the word

16:31

it was right when I was in the cycle of

16:33

a lot of promotion, and the

16:35

word sort of entered the zeitgeist,

16:38

and all of a sudden, it was everywhere

16:40

and you

16:43

know, I've I've been my parents' daughter

16:45

since I was born, and.

16:48

It works out that way.

16:50

I know it's crazy. And when I was in high

16:52

school, you know it. Your parents

16:55

procede you into

16:57

any room you walk into. I don't care

16:59

if high school, college, a

17:02

movie set, a business office.

17:05

Your parents precede

17:07

you. It's like a procession. And

17:11

you know, I'm not unaware of it. Of

17:13

course I understand it. And by

17:15

the way, I've probably also judged

17:17

people marshly in the

17:19

same way that probably people judge me.

17:22

So you know, I'm no angel here.

17:24

But here's what I will say

17:27

at four thirty in the morning, covered

17:30

in mud and blood, when

17:32

they're running out of time because they're

17:35

going to lose the sun is going to come

17:37

up, and you have to deliver the

17:39

monologue

17:41

with one hundred and fifty crew members

17:43

standing around, and you have to

17:46

run into a room and hit that little piece

17:48

of red tape on the floor and

17:50

spill your guts in

17:52

a monologue of sadness

17:55

and upset. I

17:58

don't give a shit who your parents

18:00

are. Either you can do

18:02

it or you can't. Like it's there

18:05

is if there's an advantage

18:07

because of a sort

18:09

of a drast off of

18:11

someone's fame, then okay,

18:14

great, I've not ever run

18:17

from it or hit or hit from it. I'm

18:20

proud of my parents. I loved my parents.

18:23

But the truth of the matter is the work you do

18:25

as an actor, you can only do it if you

18:27

can do it, and if you can't do it, it's

18:29

really clear, and then

18:31

you don't get to do it again. And that's

18:34

just it. So I am I

18:36

am, you know, grateful for it. Whatever

18:38

I think it's, it's you

18:41

know, I've

18:43

been doing this, as I said, since I was

18:46

nineteen and I am now sixty

18:48

five, and therefore whatever

18:50

the math is, I've

18:52

been doing it a long time. So yeah,

18:55

it's the news thing what I wanted

18:57

to tell you because it

19:00

based it's literally it's

19:03

germane to what we were talking about, which is,

19:05

how do you find yourself here at sixty five

19:08

in this moment, like in this

19:10

moment, like whatever is going

19:12

on in the world, which is awful in

19:15

this moment? Work wise how to?

19:17

And there is a book and I talk about it all

19:19

the time, and either the author

19:21

of the book hates me or I've

19:23

helped her sell a lot of books. Her

19:26

name is Mauritia Pessel, and she

19:28

wrote a book called Special Topics

19:30

in Calamity Physics. It's a novel.

19:33

It's an history novel about a father and a

19:35

daughter. By the way, Kevin Bacon and

19:38

I don't think they've made it into a movie.

19:41

And it's a terrific book. But in the middle of the book

19:44

she talks about, you know, the way

19:46

we think our lives are supposed to progress.

19:48

It's basically, for your parents,

19:51

how much money did they have, Where did you go to school,

19:53

what was your first job, what was your starting

19:56

salary? And those are what to

19:58

term in your life. And here's

20:00

what she says that really changed

20:03

my life when I read it. She

20:05

says, quote, life

20:08

hinges on a couple seconds you never

20:10

see coming, and

20:12

what you do in those seconds

20:16

determines everything from

20:18

then on and you won't

20:20

know what you're going to do until you're there.

20:24

That, Kevin making is my life

20:27

because, as you know, I saw Chris's picture

20:29

in the magazine said I'm going to

20:31

marry him. Married him four months later

20:34

after reaching out to his agent and him not

20:36

calling me and running into him at

20:38

a restaurant and he randomly

20:41

sort of waved and called me and we

20:43

got married four months later, thirty nine

20:45

years ago. All

20:48

but all of my work, all

20:52

of it, and there

20:54

are those hinge moments, those pivots

20:57

where and we could say it about every thing

21:00

in our lives is

21:02

sliding doors. You know what, Life

21:05

hinges on things you don't see

21:07

coming. So you have to just stay

21:10

open. It goes back to the point of being open,

21:13

because if you're closed and you're calculated

21:15

and you think you can control life,

21:18

you cannot. And so the beauty

21:21

for me at my age is

21:23

I'm sober and I've

21:26

been doing this a long time, and that

21:28

quote came into my head a long time

21:30

ago, and because of it, I am

21:32

now open to whatever

21:35

shows up. And by the way, awful

21:37

things have shown up.

21:38

In case those couple of seconds

21:41

hit you. Is is

21:43

a theory that it continues that

21:45

multiple This happens multiple times.

21:48

If you're if you're if you're open and ready for

21:50

it.

21:50

And that's to me, the beautyful beauty

21:53

of being an artist who

21:56

is her own art

21:58

tool. So as an

22:00

artist, I am just always

22:03

at the ready. My senses

22:06

are always firing.

22:09

Now you mentioned your company, are

22:11

you also directing? I

22:16

have you directed before? I'm forget.

22:17

I have I directed TV shows

22:20

that I have been in, because when

22:22

you're in the TV show and then you go can I direct

22:24

one? You know it's it's

22:27

something I would like to do. I'm much more interested

22:29

actually in producing things, and I'm now

22:32

just starting to become a producer

22:35

at sixty five. So, for instance,

22:38

my little company has a company with Jason

22:40

Blum, who does Blumhouse, and

22:42

we bought the Patricia Cornwell

22:45

books called which are with the main

22:47

character Case Scarpetta. There are a bunch

22:50

of wonderful books with her

22:52

as the center character. And

22:54

Nicole Kidman is going to do it. We're

22:57

doing it for Amazon. She's going to play Case

22:59

Scarpetta. I'm going to play her sister.

23:01

That's something I'm producing.

23:03

Through my own company, Fantastic.

23:05

There's a movie that I'm going to produce

23:08

which I can't talk about, even though I found

23:10

out yesterday really good news. I can't

23:12

talk about it, but I will be able to talk

23:15

about it. That's a big movie about

23:18

big ideas that it's going to

23:20

be something that I.

23:21

Get to produce Fantastic.

23:23

At the same time, the most important

23:25

thing, and I promise you it's

23:27

not my segue because before we get

23:29

to Sarah, I want to talk to you

23:32

for a second about my hand in yours because

23:34

it's different from a charitable standpoint

23:36

than Sarah's organization Free Mom

23:38

Hugs, which I very much want to lean into.

23:40

But that's what we're here for. Tell

23:42

us about my hand in yours, all right.

23:44

So, in the same way, right before

23:47

COVID, right before COVID,

23:50

I didn't want to just give

23:52

money to charity. I wanted

23:54

to feel a stronger connection to it. And

23:57

I collect little

24:00

all objects from

24:02

a sculptor named Anne Ricketts.

24:05

These are little little bronze

24:08

feet, and I send them to friends

24:10

of mine and I say, be where your feet

24:13

are. And I

24:15

called her and I said, I would like to commission

24:17

you to create

24:20

a sculpture of two hands holding whenever

24:23

I sign off a letter. Kevin, if God forbid

24:25

one of your goats passed away and

24:29

I heard about it, I would have written you a letter

24:31

and said, dear Kevin and Kia

24:34

stop making love in the barn. You

24:36

freaked out your bat and

24:40

I'm so sorry that it happened. Chris

24:42

and I send you our best. And I would have written

24:45

to you my hand in Yours

24:47

Jamie, it's just a phrase I've

24:49

used for a long time to say

24:52

I may not be with you in this moment,

24:54

but I want you to feel what it would feel

24:56

like to have my hand holding yours.

25:00

And so I went to Anne Ricketts and

25:02

I said, will you make a small sculpture

25:04

of two hands holding that

25:07

you can hold in your hand. It has a beautiful

25:09

weight to it, and I said, I would like to make

25:11

them, and I'm going to sell them on Instagram

25:13

and I'm going to give all the money to Children's Hospital

25:16

ofs Angeles. And then, very

25:18

quickly, as you know in this world,

25:21

when I hired a man named Oliver

25:23

Marler to help me set up a website to

25:25

sell them, because he you know, Instagram

25:28

is fun, but a website is better. He

25:30

said to me, how many did you order? And

25:32

I said, ah, I

25:35

ordered one hundred. Can you imagine?

25:37

He said, you'll sell those in a day?

25:40

I said, oh, off, Oliver,

25:42

really, he said, Jamie, I do

25:44

this, this is what I do. You're going

25:46

to give all the money to Children's Hospital. You'll

25:49

sell them in a day. And we did. And

25:52

he said you're going to need more. And

25:54

so what happened is there's a company

25:56

called My Hand in Yours and

25:59

it offers comfort items and

26:02

celebration items to people

26:05

in times of great happiness

26:07

and great sorrow. And we donate

26:09

one hundred percent of all proceeds

26:12

to Children's Hospital Los Angeles. And

26:15

that now is I have

26:17

a business. I run a cottage

26:19

industry in the house

26:21

next door, which is our business

26:24

office. And so besides

26:26

the movie stuff that I get to do, this

26:29

is a This was two years that we launched

26:31

August fourth of twenty twenty, right

26:34

when COVID was claiming

26:36

the lives of so many people,

26:39

and it just blossomed.

26:41

So I one

26:44

hundred percent believed that the only

26:46

purpose of fame is

26:48

to shine the fame light

26:51

that comes on us, flip it and

26:53

Missy Elliott that flip

26:55

it and reverse it and shine it

26:58

on something other than you, because

27:00

God knows we get enough tension. So

27:04

My Hand in Yours is my

27:06

version of that. But when you asked

27:09

me if I was going to direct things, here's

27:11

the reason I'm going to tell you. I

27:14

was in Idaho, where

27:17

we have a barn, but we don't make

27:19

love in it the way and cure

27:21

it. And

27:25

I read a story about a woman

27:27

in Oklahoma

27:30

who put up a Facebook post

27:32

that said, if you're getting

27:34

married and you're a same sex

27:37

couple and your biological

27:39

parents don't support

27:41

that union, I

27:43

will show up for you as a stand

27:46

in mom. And

27:49

I remember I read

27:51

the story and then I did

27:54

what people do. I cold

27:56

called her and dm'd her into

27:59

Facebook, and it took her

28:01

a minute to figure out that I wasn't a

28:04

fake person. Sure, and I

28:06

wrote to the woman whose name

28:08

is Sarah Cunningham and

28:12

basically said, this is fantastic

28:16

what you're doing. And we became

28:18

friends, and ultimately she

28:21

had written a book. I ultimately

28:24

bought the rights to the book to produce

28:26

a movie that I was going

28:28

to direct, and we were

28:31

I was. I had an airplane ticket

28:33

and crew gifts prepped

28:35

to go and we were supposed to

28:38

shoot in April of

28:40

twenty twenty. Oh wow, okay,

28:42

and COVID killed

28:45

our movie. But

28:48

since then, Sarah Cunningham

28:50

has just expanded her

28:53

reach through

28:56

a company, and not a company, an organization

28:58

that she founded an runs called

29:01

Free Mom Hugs.

29:03

Well, that's a perfect I'm

29:06

a really good you are

29:08

you are? I can? I can?

29:10

I can go make a sandwich Sarah

29:12

Cunningham please join us here on

29:15

the podcast.

29:16

And when you meet Sarah, you're gonna go, oh my god,

29:19

you guys are twins. And

29:21

we are

29:22

away.

29:25

I'm growing my hair for a month. I noticed

29:28

many times most of

29:30

my life my hair looks exactly like

29:32

Sarah Cunningham's.

29:33

I think, I think we're all on the same. We also

29:35

got the same I.

29:38

Usually have very short I

29:40

love it.

29:41

I noticed it, and it's just stunning.

29:44

It's so attractive. Of course, you look good at a potatoes.

29:46

Come on, Sarah, thank you so

29:49

much. How are you doing.

29:51

I'm doing so well. You know, I've been in

29:53

in the background here listening and I'm

29:56

just crying. And you see my

29:58

love for Jamie because she's always pointing

30:00

to something good. I've known

30:03

her for a short amount of time, but my goodness,

30:05

how she has just changed

30:08

my life the trajectory and like she shared

30:10

about how life

30:12

comes at you and unexpectedly

30:15

will change the direction of everything.

30:18

So I wouldn't be here today without without

30:20

Jamie.

30:21

Well, speaking of which, tell us your story

30:23

and I'm curious, you know,

30:25

I want to hear how how how you started

30:28

this and and what's.

30:30

It's an amazing story.

30:31

Kevin, are you did you grow up in Oklahoma?

30:34

Yes, born and raised. There was a time I would beg

30:36

my mother not to let me be buried in Oklahoma.

30:39

But now I couldn't imagine living anywhere else.

30:42

And my husband and I met young and

30:45

we have two children together, and our youngest

30:47

son, Parker, is gay, and he's

30:49

the reason why we're here today. I

30:52

raised very conservatively evangelical,

30:55

you know the story. And when Parker

30:58

tried to have those conversations with me, I

31:01

didn't take the news very well. I behaved badly.

31:04

I show him was when he started

31:07

talking to you about this.

31:08

I remember in grade

31:10

school him trying to have the conversation

31:13

at the kitchen sink. But I just thought it was a phase.

31:15

I just I didn't allow the conversation

31:18

or the vocabulary to have it. And

31:21

because I thought it was just a phase, or I thought

31:24

maybe something bad had to happen to him to

31:26

make him gay. But

31:28

it wasn't until he met

31:31

someone at the age of twenty one

31:33

and he said, Mom, I met someone and I need you to

31:35

be okay about it, and I wasn't. It

31:38

was a journey from the church to the pride parade

31:40

without losing my faith or my son.

31:43

But I met this beautiful, spirit filled community

31:46

and I fell in love. But I was

31:48

hearing their stories about how they had been

31:50

alienated from their church homes, from their

31:53

families, from many parts of society.

31:56

I was learning about laws that affect families

31:58

like mine, and I

32:01

was accountable to those things. So in

32:03

two thousand and fourteen,

32:06

I went and had my first real intentional

32:09

interaction with the gay community at the Oklahoma

32:11

City Pride Festival.

32:12

So what was it that got you

32:14

from the kitchen

32:17

sink, or the church, or wherever you

32:19

happen to be to take those steps to

32:21

walk over to a pride parade. It just seems like

32:23

a pretty pretty long long journey.

32:26

It was a journey, like I said,

32:28

from the church to the Pride parade. But hearing their

32:30

stories and so in twenty fifteen,

32:33

I made a homemade button and

32:37

with anyone who made eye contact with me, I would

32:39

say, could I offer you a free mom hug or a high

32:41

five? And the first hug I gave

32:43

went to a beautiful young girl who said

32:46

it had been four years since she had a hug from her

32:48

mother because she's a lesbian and

32:50

from that experience, we started

32:52

the nonprofit Free Mom Hugs and now

32:54

we have actors in every state of moms,

32:57

dads, friends and allies who show up at

33:00

Pride festivals, checking second

33:02

chance proms. We have transgender

33:04

Valentine's banquets, National

33:06

Pride rights, whatever we can do to

33:09

help change the social norm. And

33:11

lastly, our mission is

33:13

to empower the world to celebrate the

33:15

lgbtq IA plus community

33:18

through visibility, education and conversation,

33:21

because those are the things that changed

33:23

my understanding of this beautiful

33:26

community and of what a gift they are to the

33:28

world. And I'm

33:30

just so thankful that I'm on this side

33:32

of our story. This book

33:35

that Jimmy was talking about so beautifully is

33:37

self published, but it's our story. I'm

33:39

not a scholar or theologian. It's just how

33:41

we got through it. And what

33:45

I hear from you. I'm sorry, I'm

33:47

rambling you.

33:48

No, no, you're not at all, not at all, No, No, I'm

33:50

just wondering, to the extent that you're comfortable

33:53

sharing it.

33:56

Did you feel like it was a

33:58

slow process? Was it a

34:00

was it a an aha moment? What?

34:05

What?

34:05

How did your how did the rest of your family

34:08

react to Parker has a brother or a sister.

34:10

Yes, two children. Parker's

34:13

the youngest, Travis is the oldest Travis.

34:15

That's my son's name.

34:16

Yeah, and and uh

34:19

uh and your husband were

34:21

they supportive?

34:22

Were they confused? What was

34:24

just to give me a little more detailed was

34:27

long?

34:28

But thankfully, uh, my husband

34:31

is affirming. He has cousins

34:33

who are on the LGBTPU

34:36

skew uh spectrum, and

34:39

so he was always more affirming. I was more

34:41

conservative than my husband, thankfully,

34:44

but I made it. I made life pretty hard

34:47

around here, and so it was a process.

34:50

It didn't happen overnight, but there were pivotal

34:52

moments of seeing other people celebrate

34:54

my son when I didn't know if I should, could

34:56

or would. Seeing him happy

34:59

and healthy and live authentically, and

35:03

him you know, saying Mom, I've been your son

35:05

for twenty one years. I need you to be my mom now

35:08

will kind of make you in check. But

35:10

it was seeing other people accept him

35:12

when I was just trying to figure that out.

35:15

But I needed it was faith based

35:17

that was keeping me. That the power of

35:19

fear and ignorance kept me in that place,

35:22

but it was the power of love and education

35:25

and seeing moms like Jamie, you know, she's a

35:27

mama bear. And when she says that they

35:29

watched in Pride and wonder as

35:32

Ruby, you know, became her

35:34

authentic self. That it was

35:36

hearing things like that who

35:39

just really changed my understanding and.

35:43

Talk to me about the challenges of being

35:46

I'm assuming that the community that

35:49

where you lived and worshiped

35:52

was a, you know, a pretty conservative community.

35:55

What's it like in terms of the pushback?

35:58

And I mean, I'm amazed

36:00

at the courage that it takes to make that

36:03

kind of decision when when the you

36:05

know, the world surrounding you is kind of feeling

36:07

in.

36:07

A different way devastating. It was

36:09

devastating, but you know, having

36:12

this time span, you know, I went through being

36:14

devastated to cynical, to bitter,

36:17

to angry to understanding.

36:19

We didn't know how to minister to each other.

36:21

Nobody knew how to have this conversation because

36:24

we didn't have you know, we

36:26

didn't have any out people at our church. We didn't

36:28

have same sex couples getting married and celebrated.

36:31

We just did not know how to minister to

36:33

each other. So that's what I believe

36:36

the platform of Free Mom hugs allows

36:38

a place for people to show up and do something.

36:41

And it's a beautiful thing to

36:43

be a part of. Because when we

36:45

can pour into families like mine,

36:48

you see that fruit. You

36:50

say, the love is God,

36:52

is love, and love is God, and the fruit of the Spirit

36:55

is love, and the fruit of the spirit

36:57

is lasting and empowering. And

37:00

when we can pour into families, that's

37:03

where the fruit comes from. And you'll know them

37:05

by their fruit.

37:06

Right.

37:07

So, and you can see,

37:09

Kevin, how much of a

37:12

of a

37:15

a gospel according to

37:17

Sarah, and how

37:19

how powerful she is

37:21

as a communicator. So you can imagine

37:25

Sarah has traveled all

37:27

over the country and

37:29

talks to people who were hidden

37:33

behind the rigidity of their faith.

37:35

And look at this woman and look at

37:37

the way she communicates about love

37:40

and family and

37:42

and it just radiates from

37:44

her. It's it's it's extraor she's

37:47

an extraordinary person

37:50

who, as as she has said,

37:54

was was kept in the closet

37:56

of her own limits

37:58

of love and expand until

38:01

it was her child who opened the door and said,

38:03

I want you to be my mom. And

38:06

she literally had to choose her

38:08

church or her child, and

38:10

she chose the child and

38:12

it's shaped the world.

38:20

If you are inspired by today's episode,

38:22

please join us in supporting six degrees

38:24

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38:26

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38:52

You know, Jamie, I want to ask you something, and

38:56

then I also want to ask you the same thing zero, which

38:58

is that.

39:00

I think that.

39:03

You both you both have this, uh,

39:07

this feeling of compassion

39:09

for other people, and I'm always

39:11

interested where

39:14

you think that comes from, because

39:17

it's not an obvious thing to

39:19

say, well, I saw a need or I

39:21

saw something, or I you know. I

39:24

mean, you said, Jamie that you you're at a point in your

39:26

life where you feel like, you know, famous

39:28

people need to give back. But

39:30

I think that there's there's

39:32

something there that is inherent

39:35

in you that.

39:39

Came from something.

39:41

And I'm just wondering if, if if you

39:43

have either one of you have ideas about what

39:45

that is is that your parents is in a

39:47

moment. I've spoken to people

39:49

on the podcast that have had you know,

39:52

a tragedy or a or a you

39:54

know, something you know powerful happened

39:57

to them a voice.

39:59

Do you have any thoughts about that?

40:01

Because the thing is is that you

40:03

can do quietly do good

40:05

work which is fantastic, you

40:09

know, or like you, Sarah, you can make

40:11

your voice heard and take

40:13

the risks and the same thing with you, Jamie,

40:16

take the risks of being

40:19

despised, take the risks of the blowback,

40:21

you know, put yourself out there on the line

40:23

to say, hey, I want

40:25

to I want to be clear about something

40:28

that I feel strongly about.

40:30

So my mother was

40:33

a movie star, as we've talked

40:35

Nepo baby that I

40:37

am, and she was

40:39

involved with a group of Hollywood

40:41

wives really called Share.

40:44

It's a group in California called Share.

40:47

The acronym was Share Happily

40:49

and reap endlessly. And

40:52

what it was was that they were a group of powerful

40:55

women who understood that their husbands,

40:58

many of whom were performers, had

41:00

a lot of power and show business. So what they would

41:03

do is they put on a show

41:05

every year. They still do it.

41:07

The Share organization still does it,

41:09

and this group of women would put on

41:12

a show. Their famous husbands would

41:14

come and perform, Sammy Davis

41:16

Junior, Dean Martin, and

41:19

once in a while one of the members of the group

41:22

was a woman and a

41:24

movie star herself my mother, And

41:28

they would do that every May.

41:30

In my entire childhood, my mother

41:32

would rehearse for their Share show

41:35

every May, and I watched them

41:37

rehearse, and as a child, I would go. So I

41:40

watched my mother annually

41:42

come together with a group of people and raise

41:45

a lot of money for, by the way,

41:47

the Exceptional Children's Foundation, which

41:49

is what they put their money

41:52

toward, which was children with special

41:54

needs. So that was sort of

41:56

what I was raised around. And

41:58

then my mother. Then

42:01

my mother was friends with Eunice Kennedy

42:03

Schreiber, an extraordinary

42:06

woman, powerful change

42:08

agent, and she started

42:11

the Special Olympics and

42:13

she would invite celebrities like

42:16

your podcast to come, but you know, to

42:18

come and participate in Special

42:21

Olympics. And I went with my mother

42:24

one year. And after I went

42:26

the first year, I called Unice Kennedy

42:28

Schreiver. I was fifteen or sixteen

42:30

or somewhere, and I said to her.

42:32

You know, I think we got

42:35

Polaroid to donate cameras

42:38

we could take pictures of

42:41

the celebrities with the athletes

42:43

and then they could take them home. And so

42:45

for a couple of years I did that

42:48

at the Special Olympics.

42:50

Wow.

42:50

And then I became an actor, and

42:53

then she called me one day and said, Jamie,

42:55

I think you need to be in the pictures this year, and

42:58

so like right away, like early

43:00

on, I saw the power of

43:03

how celebrity world can

43:06

affect other things

43:09

other than show business. Yeah,

43:11

and then it was just a course of

43:13

those things happening that then,

43:16

you know, working with Children's Hospital of s Angeles

43:19

as their advocate, literally

43:22

suiting up and showing up and saying what do you need?

43:24

I will do whatever you need, and then starting

43:26

my hand in yours. So for me, the trajectory

43:29

was really watching my mother do it. Okay,

43:32

the value that having

43:35

like spame again, but

43:38

taking all the energy of fame and throwing

43:41

it towards something be it animal

43:43

rights, being human rights, children, whatever

43:45

it is, and then and

43:48

then come up with a way to monetize

43:50

it and make it a truly philanthropic

43:52

organization. That would be my background.

43:55

Always comes back to the moms, right, Sarah

43:57

always comes back to the.

43:58

Moms, always comes back

44:00

to moms.

44:01

We have to do everything.

44:03

And Sarah, you know, I mean you you've taken

44:06

this organization. I mean you you

44:08

did this one act of

44:11

I don't even know what you know, what to call

44:13

it, just you know, crossing

44:15

the divide, you know, and and

44:18

you know, showing compassion and grace towards

44:20

your son and towards to uh,

44:23

you know, to other people as well.

44:25

But now you've taken it and you continue

44:27

to, you know, keep this thing going.

44:30

What what are what? What is it? What happens

44:32

on a.

44:32

Day to day basis with the organization?

44:35

And and how can people help

44:37

and get involved?

44:39

Thank you?

44:41

I tell you the main thing And it

44:43

did start with my mother. We had My mother

44:45

was a single mother. My father passed young

44:48

five children, and so our house was

44:50

open to the whole neighborhood. And so I grew

44:52

up with a lot of that. But

44:54

I'm just doing things that I wish someone would have

44:56

done when I was trying to figure things out. Number

44:58

one, those are the things that we're doing

45:00

through visibility, education and conversation.

45:04

And secondly, is that at

45:06

the forefront of everything that we do at

45:09

Free Mom Hugs are the horror stories

45:11

of conversion therapy in thirty

45:13

states. My son, Jamie's

45:16

daughter could be denied housing, healthcare,

45:18

even thrown out of a public space because of how

45:20

they identify. That's the reality of

45:23

the LGBTQ plus community and

45:26

it's at the forefront of everything that we do

45:28

to change the social norm, to raise awareness

45:30

and to celebrate this community.

45:33

So we're always looking for ways.

45:35

But it may look like a National Pride ride.

45:38

We just had in September our very

45:40

first Free Mom Hugs conference, which Jimmie

45:43

was a part of. But we

45:45

had expected maybe one hundred

45:47

and fifty people, but we got four hundred

45:49

people, plus the mayor of Oklahoma

45:52

to show up. And Oklahoma's very conservative,

45:54

we've got pockets. But I think

45:56

what makes us so successful is

45:59

that it's love. It's

46:01

all about educating

46:04

and love and those are the things that

46:06

will change the world around us. And add

46:09

to that, once you see it in this arena,

46:12

then you see it everywhere. And when I say it,

46:14

I mean the discrimination,

46:18

the challenges that

46:21

all minority space. But this

46:23

happens to be my lane. But once you

46:25

see it here you see it everywhere, so I'm

46:27

accountable to what I know. Ultimately,

46:29

that's it.

46:31

The other thing I wanted to say, Kevin is

46:33

that And we haven't

46:35

really said this to each other, Sarah,

46:38

but I guarantee

46:40

you without

46:42

a doubt that

46:45

your

46:49

gorgeous openness

46:53

with Parker impacted

46:59

my openness with Ruby when

47:02

out of the blue,

47:04

Ruby informed my husband

47:07

and I that they were trans

47:10

that we

47:15

met because I saw that act

47:17

of generosity on Facebook

47:20

and then stalked you, not

47:24

having any idea that

47:26

I would need your example in

47:29

my own life. I did not come

47:31

to you because I had an inkling

47:34

that that was going to be a conversation in

47:36

my kitchen, and I

47:39

went to you because of your open bravery

47:43

and saying I made a mistake,

47:45

this is wrong. Here's

47:48

who I am. I'm here for you.

47:50

People like that gave

47:53

an example for me that

47:55

I hadn't put together until this weird

47:57

little zoom box thing. Because

48:00

that's the truth that when

48:03

that moment, when life hinged on

48:05

a couple seconds, I didn't see

48:07

coming that. In

48:10

those seconds, the example that

48:12

I had was lead

48:14

with love, ask questions,

48:17

open your arms and your heart,

48:20

period And that's

48:22

what happened, and it's because of you.

48:25

Thank you seeing me, Thank you.

48:27

We can all go home now.

48:29

Wow.

48:30

But I'm telling you it's it's it

48:32

didn't. It didn't connect the dot to me until

48:35

this second where it's like, well duh,

48:39

because you led by example and I

48:41

was attracted to it without even knowing.

48:44

I was attracted to it for the reasons that I'm

48:46

now attracted to it.

48:48

Thank you amazing.

48:50

I mean, that's is exactly what we're trying to do

48:52

here on the spot, is to get

48:55

these these kinds of moments. And you

48:58

know, I I admire you both

49:01

so much for you

49:04

know, your compassion and your understanding

49:06

and your courage and your

49:09

voice and your love. It's

49:11

it's it's it's beautiful, inspiring.

49:14

And you and I saw you on the Kelly

49:17

Kark Clarkson Show and you

49:19

just have a need and you say, what

49:21

can I do? What can I do? What

49:23

should I do? And you saw a need and

49:25

you had an idea and you did it

49:27

and it works. So I

49:30

mean, this is what it's all about. It's not a competition.

49:33

It's about serving each

49:36

other and helping each other. And

49:38

if you don't have it, then you find someone who does

49:41

so well done.

49:43

Thank you, thank you. Okay, what's the what's the website?

49:46

Free moom hugs dot org.

49:50

Dot com, My hand in yours

49:52

dot com. These are two fantastic,

49:55

fantastic organizations

49:58

that need your

50:00

help, your interest.

50:04

Check them out.

50:05

Please, I say something,

50:07

Kevin, I'm sorry, sure can freemomhuds

50:10

dot org. You can find your state chapter,

50:12

get plugged in. If it's just showing

50:15

up at Pride Festival. Soon you'll be helping

50:17

with the clothing closet or trans

50:20

Valentine's Bank, but you can find the resources.

50:22

If you are a parent, a guardian,

50:25

know someone who's going through this journey,

50:27

there are resources available at our website.

50:30

And of course we're a nonprofit. We

50:33

all need funding, so.

50:36

Do what you can.

50:37

I say, if you can, pray for us,

50:39

pray for us, if you can show up, show up, if you

50:41

can give, give beautiful.

50:44

I love that. I

50:46

love you both so much.

50:51

Hey, guys, thanks for listening to another episode

50:53

of six Degrees with Kevin Bacon.

50:55

If you want to.

50:55

Learn more about Free

50:58

mom Hugs to momhugs

51:01

dot org, you can find all the

51:03

links in our show notes, and

51:05

if you like what you hear, make sure you subscribe

51:08

to the show, tune into the rest of our episodes.

51:10

You can find six Degrees with Kevin Bigan on

51:13

iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts,

51:15

or wherever you get your podcasts.