0:00

A folks, today's guest is very

0:03

very well known. This is a much

0:05

different guest than I normally have one. And

0:08

if you had told me that I would be sitting

0:10

down with one of the leading thought

0:13

leaders of our time, I

0:15

wouldn't have believed you. It's just

0:18

definitely not my john. The Deepak

0:21

Chopra is a global leader

0:23

and pioneer in the field of

0:25

mind body medicine. It's got

0:27

so much insight into the spiritual,

0:30

the physical, mental worlds.

0:33

Turn up the volume a bit. I'm

0:35

glad you're here.

0:45

Well, I'm very excited to

0:47

today welcome my guest,

0:50

Deepak Chopra. These

0:52

are words that I never really thought would be leaving

0:55

my mouth here on a podcast.

0:58

First off, I never

1:00

even imagined that I would be doing a podcast

1:02

when I got into this line of

1:04

work, and certainly that

1:07

I would have such an esteemed guest with

1:09

me today. It's very nice

1:11

to meet you, sir. I

1:14

know that a lot of people, you know, there's a silly

1:17

six degrees of Kevin Bacon thing that

1:19

has been going on for a lot of years, and we

1:21

actually believed or not have a connection

1:24

through the film business because of the

1:26

love Guru. So my first

1:29

question for you is

1:31

how was how did you feel about acting?

1:33

What was what was your experience with

1:37

being a performer.

1:39

You know, Mike has

1:41

been a very good friend to me, and when

1:43

he came out with this idea, I

1:46

wanted to support the idea, but

1:50

you know, it's not my kind of humor and

1:54

spend filming

1:57

it was quite tiring to daddy

1:59

the truth and I'm not you

2:02

know, I like to speak on stage, but

2:04

I'm not really an actor. But it

2:06

was an interesting experience.

2:09

Well, it's interesting that you say that because I think

2:11

that you know, I have

2:14

listened to you, you know, quite a bit speaking,

2:18

uh, and and and seeing you

2:20

also not in person but online

2:22

speaking and while

2:24

you're not an actor, uh, there is something

2:27

about your full persona,

2:31

your voice where it is placed,

2:35

all those elements of what you put

2:37

out in the world that have a very very

2:39

powerful effect. I guess my point is that

2:41

you know, beyond the

2:44

words that that you say,

2:46

there's also a there is an element

2:48

of that's just you that is

2:50

powerful. Are you Are you kind of aware of

2:53

that that it's, for lack

2:55

of a better word, charismatic.

2:57

I kind of became a flure

2:59

through comments from people

3:02

like yourselves, you know. But

3:04

I was not aware of that growing

3:06

up. Although in high

3:08

school I was

3:10

a professional debater, and I

3:12

you know, I did a lot of that in

3:15

college and in medical school too,

3:17

so I do have that background

3:20

of engaging in dialogue

3:22

and debate as a

3:25

student in school and medical

3:27

school and even thereafter.

3:29

Well, speaking of background,

3:33

where are you from? Where were you born?

3:35

I was born in New Delhi. I went to high

3:38

school in New Delhi, and

3:40

then I went to the

3:43

medical school that at that time and

3:45

even now is considered very

3:48

prestigious in India. They take only fifty

3:51

students a year from all over

3:53

India. It's called the All India Institute

3:55

of Medical Sciences. And

3:57

then as soon as I finished my

4:00

school, I

4:02

was only twenty two, I came

4:04

to the United States and worked in

4:09

community hospital in

4:11

New Jersey. But fortunately

4:14

the next year I got fellowships

4:16

and residencies in

4:18

Boston at various institutions

4:22

associated with Harvard

4:24

and Boston University

4:27

and Tufts, and so I did my training

4:30

in Boston, four years

4:32

of residency and three years of fellowship,

4:34

so that was seven years. And

4:36

then I started teaching at at

4:39

the three universities medical schools,

4:42

mainly endochronology and neuroindochronology,

4:44

which is the study of brain chemistry.

4:48

So this was in seventies when people

4:50

didn't know much about neurochemicals

4:53

like serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin

4:56

and opiates. But we

4:58

were right in the frontier. My

5:00

mentor was Simour

5:02

Reichlan, who was the number one

5:05

endochronologist in the world at that time.

5:07

He was the.

5:07

President of the Endocrine

5:09

Society. He's now ninety seven,

5:12

by the way, and if he catches a snake in his

5:14

garden, he still dissects the

5:16

brain looking for neurochemicals.

5:19

But it was my insight

5:22

as a result of my training with

5:24

these molecules, was that one

5:27

day one of my colleagues, Can

5:29

Despert, who later became the

5:32

head of brain chemistry at the NIH,

5:34

She said, these are the molecules

5:37

of emotion, and you know that kind

5:39

of hit me. I said, you should

5:41

write a book about them. She

5:43

said, I will if you write the forwards. So she

5:45

wrote this book, Molecules of Emotion,

5:48

and I actually did the forward.

5:51

It became a best seller that

5:53

got me into my

5:55

book Quantum Healing nineteen eighty

5:58

eight. And even

6:00

though it was vilified by my colleagues

6:03

and medical schools,

6:05

which they felt it was totally outlandish

6:08

or whatever. It also was

6:11

very popular with the public. So

6:13

that was my forain into

6:15

mind body medicine, which then became integrated

6:18

medicine, and then deeper understanding

6:21

of what we call consciousness and spirit.

6:24

And this year or

6:26

thirty five years later, I

6:29

along with a couple of colleagues,

6:32

including a quantum biologist who's

6:34

at the University of Calgary also in

6:37

Poland in Europe, and another

6:39

colleague, Brian Fertig,

6:42

who's neuroindochronologists

6:45

like myself, we published

6:48

last week Quantum

6:50

Body, which now brings

6:53

the science into what I was saying in

6:55

nineteen eighty eight. So

6:58

since ninety eight, in eighty eight, there's

7:00

a lot of science on what we call epigenetics,

7:03

neuroplasticity, and

7:05

even you know, the quantum

7:09

effects in our body

7:12

as a result of a more

7:14

fundamental experience of existence,

7:16

which is going beyond the mind into what

7:18

we call the spiritual consciousness. Somehow

7:22

that begins to kick in self regulation

7:25

and homeostasis in

7:27

the body. And so we have a science,

7:29

you know, and now the science is

7:31

easy to check because anybody

7:34

objects. We say, go to AI or go

7:36

to Google Bard or whatever and check

7:38

out the science yourself. I don't have

7:40

to defend what I was saying thirty

7:42

five years ago.

7:44

Well, I mean that brings up so many

7:46

thoughts for me. But I'll just speak from a

7:48

personal level. I mean, I

7:51

am someone who kind

7:53

of goes. I'm

7:57

sort of open to all different ways

8:00

to stay healthy and to

8:02

fix things.

8:03

Uh.

8:03

If I use traditional

8:06

medicine. I have a traditional medicine

8:09

doctor. Uh, you know, I

8:11

will if if I feel

8:14

sick or something's going on. I'm I'm

8:16

very good about showing up and taking blood

8:19

work and you know, doing all those things. I'm not

8:21

in any way anti it, but I also sometimes

8:24

go to alternative sources

8:27

whatever they happen to be different,

8:31

you know what

8:33

some people would call, you know, insane

8:36

kind of methods, meditation,

8:42

you know, whatever it happens to be. In the course of my

8:44

life, there's been like, you know, herbal kind

8:46

of things and acupuncture, all kinds of stuff.

8:49

But what I find a lot of times

8:51

is that both of these sides

8:54

of this particular issue are

8:57

sort of at odds with each other or disdainful

9:00

of the different kind of practices

9:03

on both sides that there's a lot of people that

9:06

who are in you know, alternative

9:08

medicines that really you know, pooh

9:10

pooh are disdained you know, traditional medicine.

9:12

And and you know, on the flip

9:15

side, you go to the doctor and you say, hey, you

9:17

know, uh, you know, i have this,

9:19

you know, pain in my throat. I've been

9:21

taking you know, you know whatever, zinc

9:24

or something, and he goes, yeah, yeah, great whatever,

9:26

you know it doesn't want to hear about it. So I'm

9:28

wondering, as someone who comes from

9:31

you were trained and you know clearly very

9:33

successful as a as a doctor in

9:36

internal medicine and the chronology, and

9:38

then you've discovered this kind of other connection,

9:41

how do you balance those two types of

9:43

things? And which world is it that or

9:46

do you feel yourself on

9:49

a bridge between two worlds?

9:51

Not really, Kevin, So, just to

9:53

put things in perspective, I

9:55

currently have a professorship

9:58

in three medical schools, University of California,

10:02

San Diego, Mount Sinai in New

10:04

York, and University of Central Florida

10:07

in Orlando. So I teach, and

10:09

right now it's very popular this

10:12

what is called integrated medicine

10:14

with medical students that

10:16

they are offered electives

10:19

and there's always a waiting list. So

10:21

I no longer say

10:24

this is alternative, but this is an integrative.

10:26

It's old list.

10:27

Say I think good medicine

10:30

is that which works. Spirit

10:32

So medicine that works

10:35

is good medicine. It doesn't matter where

10:37

it comes from. If it's you know, if

10:39

it's Eastern Western to

10:41

me, doesn't matter. Having said

10:43

that, what we call

10:46

traditional medicine as

10:49

taught in medical schools for the most

10:51

part, although now medical schools are

10:53

getting into what they call integrated

10:56

medicine. But in general,

10:58

it's very clear that

11:01

mainstream medical intervention,

11:03

which includes antibiotics, includes

11:06

chemotherapy, radiation, surgery,

11:09

now immunotherapy, and many

11:11

other things. Mainstream medicine

11:14

is extremely effective in acute

11:16

illness. So if you have pneumonia,

11:19

you better take an antibiotic. If

11:21

you break your leg, you should see an orthopedic

11:24

surgeon, et cetera. If you have appendicitis,

11:27

that's an acute situation which needs

11:29

intervention. So what

11:32

we call reductionist medicine Western

11:34

medicine is based on understanding

11:37

the mechanisms of illness at

11:40

a very precise level.

11:42

So you know how bacteria multiplied.

11:44

Then you have a precision medicine

11:47

to interfere with that, whatever it is

11:50

antibiotics, etc. Now immunotherapy.

11:53

There are major breakthroughs.

11:55

In medicine right now.

11:57

The first one is AI, which

11:59

can put together every biomarker

12:01

and link it to everything

12:04

that's happening in your life, your sleep patterns,

12:06

your stress, et cetera. So AI is

12:08

a breakthrough in modern medicine.

12:11

Gene editing is a breakthrough in modern

12:14

medicine. You'll be able to cut and paste genes

12:16

the same way you cutt and based emails.

12:18

You metaphorically speaking, you'll be able

12:20

to read the barcode of a gene

12:23

and delete the gene that's causing say,

12:25

baraka gene cancer. You replace

12:27

it with a normal gene Wallah.

12:30

So that's second major breakthrough.

12:38

The third major breakthrough in modern medicine

12:40

is what we call messenger RNA, where

12:44

you can create, hopefully

12:46

in the near future, vaccines for

12:49

chronic illness everything from heart disease

12:51

to cancer, to diabetes

12:55

to Alzheimer's. So that's another major

12:57

breakthrough. The fourth major breakthrough

12:59

is what we call the microbiome,

13:02

which is the two million extra genes

13:04

you have in addition to human

13:06

genes. We can change the population

13:09

of the genes through diet and many

13:11

other interventions. So that's

13:13

a breakthrough. And the fifth breakthrough is

13:16

psychedelics, and you know that's

13:18

happening in the consciousness research. Those

13:20

are very important breakthroughs in modern

13:23

medicine. However, when

13:26

you look at the spectrum of disease, ninety

13:29

five percent or more disease is not due

13:32

to what we call fully

13:35

penetrent genes. They are only less

13:37

than five percent of all disease, which includes

13:40

cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's,

13:42

diabetes, you name it. Ninety

13:44

five percent or more is

13:47

not due to what we call fully penetrent

13:50

genes, for which you will have this gene

13:52

editing and so forth. Ninety

13:55

percent of disease is epigenetically

13:59

or strated epigenetic. Above

14:01

the genes, there's a sheet

14:04

of proteins called his stones,

14:06

and so imagine my fist

14:09

as this his stone protein

14:12

DNA is wrapped around this, and

14:14

every experience you have doesn't matter

14:16

what the experience is. Right now, we are having an

14:19

intellectual conversation. Your

14:21

genes in your brain frontal

14:23

godix are being activated. Sure,

14:27

not only those genes, but anyone who's

14:29

listening to us. Their genes are being activated,

14:32

which means our minds are affecting

14:34

energy information, genetic

14:36

activity in different parts

14:38

of our body depending on the experience.

14:40

So if this was an emotional experience,

14:43

you know, then you know you're in love, then

14:46

some other part of your brain would be activated,

14:48

and gene activity would be activated

14:50

and neural networks would change.

14:53

This is something we did not know

14:55

twenty years ago. You know, intuitively,

14:58

these Eastern tick niques

15:00

have tapped into it, you know, and

15:02

Iveda and Chinese medicine

15:05

even and indigenous medical

15:08

practices. They tapped into

15:10

the idea that when you change experience,

15:13

you change biology. And

15:15

so you know, Western medicine's being dismissive

15:17

of this because they say, oh, you're not it's place

15:19

ebo. But that's a term that

15:22

we use when you don't know what's happening. Now

15:24

we know what's happening. Genes

15:26

are being activated precisely. So

15:29

when you sleep, certain genes get activated.

15:32

When you have an emotional experience, certain

15:34

genes get activated. When you

15:36

manage your stress. Either way, it

15:38

stress causes genes to activate

15:41

that cause inflammation. But when you have

15:44

joy. Other genes are activated.

15:47

Every experience modulates

15:49

the activity of the change. What happens is

15:52

these proteins they move around,

15:55

and then certain genes get closer

15:57

to each other, certain genes get far

15:59

from each other. They're literally genetic

16:01

switches. Like the lights in

16:04

my room. Now you know, I have a computer,

16:06

I have a light, I have a microwave, let's

16:08

say, and depending on what I

16:11

need, the appropriate appliances will

16:13

get activated. There's a computer

16:15

in consciousness, call it a cosmic

16:18

computer whatever, that

16:20

is constantly monitoring your experience

16:23

in trying to regulate your body,

16:25

you know. But we kind of sometimes

16:29

interfare with that through lack of sleep,

16:31

for example, or a dysfunctional relationship

16:34

or an improper diet. And now

16:36

we not only know the gene activity, but

16:38

also the part of the autonomic nervous

16:40

system, which we call the parasympathetic

16:43

nervous system, which is activated

16:45

by all these techniques, whether it's yoga

16:47

or breathing, or chanting

16:49

or singing or meditation or

16:52

mind body coordination or tai

16:54

chi or chigong or

16:56

what you call you know, acuper

16:59

pressure. So looking at

17:01

the new era where we can

17:03

combine everything that we know in

17:05

Western medicine, with everything

17:08

that we know in these healing traditions, and there's

17:10

a science.

17:11

I love it.

17:12

That's that's I love the book.

17:14

Now want to body.

17:15

I love that. You know.

17:17

I had a experience many

17:20

years ago where I was a young

17:22

man, uh and I

17:25

was, you know, suffering

17:28

from a tremendous amount of back pain,

17:30

low back pain, and uh,

17:33

you know, to the point where like I'd be driving down

17:35

the road, I had to pull the car over and

17:37

lie on the ground that it was but just it would

17:39

literally like make me cry. And

17:42

I heard about this book, the

17:44

Sarno Book, and I remember

17:47

I was on vacation. My

17:49

back was killing me, and I started reading this book

17:52

and literally as I'm reading

17:54

it, my backstart stopped hurting.

17:56

And you know, back book.

17:58

Was a good friend of mine, do it was?

18:00

He yeah, yeah, I mean it changed

18:02

my life, honestly, and I've I've continued

18:05

to you know, share that book

18:07

with with people, you know, because

18:10

especially with backs.

18:12

You know, he talked about.

18:13

The you know, the fear that we

18:15

have around and we always think that it's there's

18:17

something wrong with your spine or you know, whatever it

18:19

is, and this is not the ascount people that have true

18:21

spin as you've pointed out, true things that

18:24

need to be fixed, you know, true spinal injuries.

18:26

But once I started to think

18:28

about it and to think about, you

18:30

know, what was actually going

18:33

on in my life that

18:37

that I wasn't quite dealing

18:39

with, things got

18:41

a lot better. I mean, my

18:44

back got better. I don't know, I don't know my life necessarily

18:46

got better, but my back back got better for

18:48

that time. And I think about that, you

18:50

know, quite a bit now.

18:52

But I have to ask you, you know, I I

18:57

sometimes when i'm I'm

18:59

not I'm not what I would call a

19:01

spiritual person, right,

19:04

I don't. I don't have

19:06

a religion. I don't have a religious

19:08

practice. I don't I

19:13

do things, for instance,

19:15

like meditate, and

19:19

sometimes I'll use you know,

19:21

apps or or or you know, you

19:24

know, voices or things that I've subscribed to

19:26

to kind of walk me through it. But

19:29

when it starts

19:31

to dip

19:33

a little too far into

19:36

some spirituality, I kind

19:38

of find myself pulling back from

19:41

that. So I'm wondering, what, what,

19:43

what kind of advice you would have for somebody like me.

19:45

Let me.

19:47

Actually take you a little deeper on this,

19:49

Okay, because you

19:52

shouldn't be afraid of

19:54

exploring spirituality for the following

19:56

reasons. This

19:59

is going in to the heart of two

20:02

very big scientific

20:05

conundrums that we have today.

20:07

If you go on the Internet and

20:09

you type out the following question, what are

20:11

the one hundred and twenty five open questions

20:13

and science today?

20:15

There are one hundred and twenty five open questions

20:17

and science. By the way, you know, how did

20:19

life begin?

20:19

E said, But the first

20:22

thing that comes up is what is

20:25

the universe made of? And I won't

20:27

go detailed into it. You would think

20:29

that, you know, most of the universe is gravity

20:32

and particles and force fields,

20:34

and you know what

20:36

we call atoms and molecules. Well,

20:39

that's point zero one percent of

20:41

the universe, which is atomic.

20:44

The rest is dark energy

20:46

doc matter, non atomic. We can't even

20:48

interact with it, so we have no idea

20:50

what it is point zero one percent

20:53

of the visible universe, which is two trillion

20:55

galaxies one hundred you

20:57

know, seven hundred sixtillions.

21:00

That's seven hundred followed by twenty

21:02

one zeros. And now they say

21:05

uncountable trillions of probably

21:07

habitable planets, including sixty

21:10

billion habitable planets just in the

21:12

Milky Way galaxy atomic.

21:14

But the problem with atoms is or particles,

21:17

when you're not observing them, they disappear.

21:19

They're not physical anymore.

21:21

They disappear into mathematical space,

21:24

and they're called wave functions.

21:26

That's therefore the first question

21:29

in size today's

21:31

what's the universe made of? And nobody

21:33

knows what it's made of? Zero They

21:36

say it's made of nothing, which leads

21:38

to our second question in science, Then why

21:40

does it.

21:41

Look like this?

21:43

You know, like you and me and the computer

21:45

and the Milky Way galaxy and

21:47

stars and trees and

21:49

rocks and animals. That's called

21:51

the hard problem of consciousness. Now, in

21:54

the short time we have right now, we

21:56

can't go into detail, but there's an emerging

22:00

science which we call consciousness,

22:02

which might be fundamental reality.

22:05

Conscious not the mind, it's not the

22:07

body. It's that in which

22:10

we experience the mind and body. So if

22:12

I ask you where are you having this experience

22:14

right now listening? You probably

22:16

point to your ears or your brain,

22:18

But there's no sound in your ears or your brain

22:21

either. If I say, where are

22:23

you seeing my image the park

22:25

on your screen? Where

22:27

is this experience happening? You might point

22:29

to your eyes, your brain, but there's no experience

22:32

in your eyes in your brain either, there are only chemical

22:35

activities eellectual So there's

22:38

a growing body of evidence that

22:40

experience happens, for

22:43

lack of a better word, in what we

22:45

call awareness or consciousness.

22:48

Without awareness or consciousness, there's

22:50

no experience. There's no sound, there's no touch,

22:53

no sight, no say it tastes, no

22:55

smell, no thought, no feeling, no

22:57

emotion, no

22:59

no ideas, no creativity,

23:02

no any no experience.

23:05

So consciousness is that which makes

23:07

experience happen, and we don't

23:09

know where it is. So the spiritual

23:11

traditions have said, if you go really

23:13

deep beyond your mind, you

23:16

do encounter and experience

23:19

where you feel connected to everything

23:21

ineffable, You lose the fear of death, you

23:24

have spontaneous emergence of

23:26

what is called platonic values

23:28

like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony,

23:31

and you actually find your

23:33

identity beyond space and time. Now

23:36

this was very difficult for people

23:38

to explain in the past, because you know, it

23:40

did sounds so esoteric and so vague.

23:44

But now with all that we're learning from psychedelics

23:46

and so on, it looks like your

23:48

brain is not the orchestrator

23:50

of experience. It's like it's

23:53

like a radio set which receives experience

23:56

from another domain beyond space

23:58

and time. You don't have to call it God,

24:00

you don't have to call it spirit. Just call

24:02

it it whatever it is. But

24:05

we are on a little planet, little

24:07

planet in the junkyard of infinity,

24:10

and we think we figured it out.

24:12

We have it.

24:13

So the biggest experience

24:16

you can have is a spiritual being.

24:19

Is astonishment, is wonder,

24:21

is curiosity, and

24:23

it's almost bewilderment. Those

24:26

are spiritual experiences because

24:28

we don't know why there is existence,

24:31

or why there's awareness of existence.

24:33

Because if you weren't aware that you exist,

24:36

then what's the point.

24:39

So these are very big questions and

24:41

I think they deserve exploring in

24:44

every which way possible, whether it's

24:46

through Web three or artificial

24:48

intelligence, or psychedelics

24:50

or meditation, or even

24:53

the rituals that go with religion.

24:56

Because those people had an experience

24:58

which was ineffable and they couldn't

25:00

explain it, and you know, the followers

25:03

just were believing in the experience,

25:06

not having that experience on their

25:08

own. If Buddha had an experience, I

25:10

don't want to worship the Buddha. I want to know what that

25:12

experience was or Jesus so well, you

25:15

know. So that's my take on spirituality.

25:17

I would say, take the plunge and explore

25:19

it.

25:19

You'll be surprised.

25:27

If you are inspired by today's episode.

25:29

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25:59

Hey want to bring on Punacha

26:02

Machaya.

26:03

I love this name.

26:06

He is the CEO of the

26:08

Chopra Foundation, and I

26:11

want to talk about the work that you

26:14

are doing and that relates

26:16

to everything that we're talking about

26:18

here.

26:20

No, thank you Kevin for the opportunity.

26:22

I think Deepak when he started the foundation,

26:24

Yeah, in one vision he said,

26:26

I want to reach a billion plus people or

26:29

a more peaceful, just sustainable,

26:32

healthier and joyful world as

26:34

the sign me up. And so the

26:37

purpose of the Triple Foundation is to really make

26:39

this vision a reality. But where

26:41

we really focused on right now is

26:43

in three areas as we speak

26:45

in this one hour podcast, more than sixty plus

26:48

people would have died. Mental health

26:50

is one of the silent pandemics every

26:52

forty seconds blue some of the

26:55

suicide globally in this great

26:57

country every eleven minutes every

26:59

day below twenty two veterans you

27:01

know, to suicide. So one of the big movements

27:03

what we are looking at at the Foundation is how

27:06

do we really address this mental

27:08

health And that's really we've

27:10

started a movement called Never Alone with

27:12

our co founders also Gabrielle right with Deepak,

27:15

truly look at mental health, but really look at this

27:17

consciousness based approach. Like Deepak

27:19

always says, don't confuse yourself with

27:21

your selfie and.

27:23

I know who you are.

27:25

And in the deep dark, when you

27:27

know the deep in the dark night of the soul,

27:30

how do you going to reach into that part of you

27:32

to find the resilience to transcend

27:35

whatever you're going through at that point. So that's really

27:37

a big focus for us mental health and

27:40

the reason for that is also if you can think

27:42

about the second leading cause of death for

27:44

my young adults is dead by suicide?

27:46

Isn't that a tragedy? Right? As

27:48

we talk.

27:49

Sending people to Mars and we talk about

27:51

all the innovation and AI, a

27:53

younger generation saying take me out of

27:55

here.

27:55

I don't want to be part of this.

27:57

So when you look at that, we realize that, Okay,

27:59

how do we talk to them?

28:00

As you look at meditations, we believe.

28:03

We need to talk through them gaming.

28:06

How do you look at gaming as a platform

28:08

to talk to young adults. So we're doing a lot of interesting

28:10

work in gaming. Example, let's say playing

28:13

Fortnite or Call of Duty or Legal Legends

28:15

or Roadblocks. Don't tell kids

28:17

not to play the game, because obviously they're connecting with that.

28:19

How do you change the mechanics in between games?

28:22

How can we teach them focus attention,

28:25

so mini games between games. So that's a focus

28:27

for us and Deepark touched on this. On

28:29

psychedelics, we really believe that

28:32

if medication's not working, but

28:34

there's an entire domain of psychedelics which

28:36

is really creating a profound effect on

28:39

mental health, how do they

28:41

kind of bring these education in awareness.

28:43

So that's part of mental health. The second

28:45

area which we have focused on is Deepark's

28:47

bodio work over the last four decades, is

28:50

how do you transform human well being? And

28:53

very specifically, if we're looking at health span, people

28:55

are obviously doing a lot of work and longevity.

28:58

People will live longer, that's modern

29:00

science, live better.

29:02

How do we improve health span quality of life?

29:05

So we say we want the wisdom of age and

29:07

the biology of youth. So as

29:10

people live longer, how do you talk

29:12

about purpose, your relationship with time,

29:15

and how do you kind of give these knowledge

29:17

and information. So that's a big

29:19

focus for us in the Foundation. And

29:21

the third area of focus for us is.

29:24

How can we in these times.

29:26

Have a leadership crisis globally and

29:29

globally we believe there's a lack

29:32

of trust. People don't trust anything these

29:34

days and that really did ritic correlation

29:36

to leadership, personal and professional leadership.

29:39

So we have a program.

29:41

Which they Parkash to teach at calag and Columbia

29:43

over the last fifteen years and we are

29:45

already taking that to the global caordiance.

29:47

Called the Soul of Leadership.

29:49

So connecting with not your LinkedIn profile,

29:51

we can always google that, sure, but what

29:53

do we look at the soul profile? Who are you as

29:55

a person, how do you lead from that? So these are the

29:57

three areas which we are broadly focused on

30:00

in the foundation.

30:01

And then how do you in in the

30:03

day to day work? How

30:06

how do how are you implementing these

30:08

ideas and how are you spreading spreading this

30:10

these these these ideas.

30:12

So then we say it takes a village to you

30:14

know, bring up a child. So what we're

30:16

doing is creating global collaborations.

30:18

So we have the content be of the knowledge.

30:20

That's what we are very good at.

30:22

So example, so we're taking the

30:24

knowledge on mental health

30:26

and we're taking it to Africa. We're

30:28

raising awareness for something

30:31

called FGM, female genital mutilation. But

30:33

how now when somebody has gone through that

30:36

trauma, how can we use our programs,

30:38

our meditation, our content and enable

30:40

people in those communities to use it. So

30:42

that's one example example. On

30:45

leadership, we have actually uh op

30:47

on on our website. We go to c FI dot

30:50

Chopra Foundation dot org. CFI dot

30:52

Choprofoundation dot org.

30:53

You will see two courses.

30:55

One of the courses is called the Soul of Leadership.

30:57

We we're offering it free and this

31:00

is through a grant from Robert Smith's Foundation. We

31:02

believe everybody needs

31:05

to be their own leader, so that's a free

31:07

program we are offering. We also have a

31:09

program called Peace is the Way. Our

31:11

goal is to really create global peace

31:13

facilitators. If you can work in

31:15

your community and then really work through

31:18

your community, become a facilitator. So

31:20

our goal is to enable those programs and

31:22

content, and that's really how we are building alliances.

31:25

We're working in India through our collaborations

31:27

over there, in Australia, in Spain,

31:29

in Majorca, obviously doing a lot.

31:31

Of work in London.

31:33

A good example of this would be announced a collaboration

31:35

with Stella McCartney on equine

31:37

therapy, right, and equint therapy

31:40

is something, but as as you look at mental health, everybody

31:42

has a different way. Like you said, people find what

31:44

they want, what resonates with them. But

31:47

if you be a young adult, you know you could don't

31:49

have access to psychedelics. Maybe we want to look at

31:51

VR therapy. We're working with that too. We're

31:53

working with the leading anxiety expert from Harvard

31:56

to look at anxiety and VR in the brain.

31:58

But maybe it's just easing equin So yeah,

32:00

I would say a.

32:01

Platora of tools, products

32:03

and services which you're enabling other

32:06

third parties to use.

32:07

I love that you are.

32:10

I mean when you mentioned the gaming and

32:12

the psychedelics, I love that you're You're you're

32:17

not drawing a line in the sand

32:20

in terms of these things, because you know, in

32:23

a lot of ways with this stuff, the horses out of

32:25

the barn and both of you have mentioned

32:28

AI and it makes me think

32:31

about, you know, this is

32:33

not exactly AI, but I'm

32:35

the intersection of this

32:38

incredible technology

32:41

tsunami that we've experienced in the last

32:44

you know whatever, fifteen twenty years.

32:46

It's it's it's I'm not the

32:49

first to say that it can be completely overwhelming,

32:51

but just to share a story for

32:54

me that I was thinking about. You know, a lot

32:56

of times, if I am going to meditate

33:00

in the middle of the day, I have

33:02

a.

33:04

Sound which is a.

33:06

Light a light rain falling in a rainforest

33:10

that I that I like. And I

33:13

was listening to it, and there's

33:16

there's some birds kind of like you know,

33:18

kind of tropical birds. They're overlaid

33:20

on this sound, and I go back

33:22

to it all the time just because it's a good one for me. Whatever,

33:25

and all of a sudden, I realized

33:28

that I put in my headset

33:30

and I turned my phone on, and I realized

33:32

that there was a light rain falling where

33:35

I was, and there were birds,

33:38

and I didn't need this thing

33:41

in my hand, this piece of machinery,

33:44

and these things in my ears. So

33:47

and it was such a simple moment,

33:50

but it kind of made

33:52

me go, why am I so wrapped

33:55

up in.

33:56

Trying to.

33:59

Stay somehow technologically

34:01

connected to something? Is it keeping

34:04

me from you

34:06

know, being pride, from hearing, from

34:08

seeing nature, from experiencing

34:12

people and people's faces and their

34:14

eyes and their voices and all

34:17

this other stuff. So I'm wondering about

34:19

the kind of the intersection. Maybe

34:21

you could speak on this deep ok between you

34:24

know, technology and spiritualism.

34:28

Yeah, of course, you know when we

34:30

were growing up, when I was growing up, you

34:33

know, by fourteen fifteen, there

34:36

were no computers. In fact, when I came to

34:38

the country, I had never to the United

34:40

States nineteen seventy. I had

34:42

never seen a television set in

34:44

my life. And then, you know, while

34:47

it was in color, I was totally bewildered

34:49

by the technology. Then came fax machines,

34:52

Then came the Internet, all, you

34:54

know, in my lifetime.

34:55

There I miss a good facts machine.

34:59

I miss a good fax machine, or

35:02

a.

35:02

Kid who grew up in India with no

35:04

access to this. My teenage

35:07

years were full of adventure, you know,

35:09

going to the jungle with my father

35:13

to look at tigers and even

35:15

go tiger hunts, going

35:18

to the Himalias in the summer

35:21

in this and climbing mountains.

35:23

There was total exposure to

35:26

nature.

35:27

From then.

35:28

I see these poor kids now in

35:30

this country, especially

35:33

COVID and post after, who think that the

35:36

world exists on a computer.

35:37

They're not nowhere there.

35:39

So I think giving them these tools,

35:41

a little bit like gaming, like

35:43

we are experiences actually

35:46

can make them more

35:48

interested in actually going for

35:51

the real thing too, you know. And

35:54

there is when

35:56

I was educated as a child,

35:58

even in India, there was poetry,

36:01

there was music, there was dance,

36:03

there was ballet, there was storytelling,

36:06

there was theater, There was adventures

36:08

in nature. And yes there was sport too,

36:11

but it wasn't the kind of sport where you will you

36:14

get a scholarships and make a lot of money

36:16

and that becomes the motivation. It

36:18

was sport for the joy of

36:20

sport, music for the joy

36:23

of music. You know poetry,

36:25

Well, how many kids these days listen

36:28

to poetry or even can quote Shakespeare

36:30

or ts Eliot. So you know, our

36:33

education with all

36:36

emphasis or technology, engineering,

36:39

science, mathematics. While

36:42

it's good it makes people nerds

36:44

and experts to get a Nobel

36:46

prize, it deprives them of

36:48

their humanity. We are actually

36:51

a society that has deprived

36:54

our kids of their humanity.

36:55

They don't even know what it means to be human.

36:58

Also, Deepog's point came, and I think it's conscious

37:01

use of technology. So what we're saying is that

37:03

you're playing a game. Yes, what I cannot get

37:05

the kid playing Fortnite play Fortnite,

37:07

but imagine I could teach you how to breathe.

37:10

So when you get short in Fortnite, imagine that the

37:12

tip it tells you this is how you activate

37:14

your breathwork so you can get to the next level.

37:17

So between games, we can

37:19

make them more conscious. So don't

37:21

change the game. But while you design

37:23

the game, let's be more conscious. Because

37:26

I'm the generation which came with fast internet

37:29

and mobile phones, we trought addiction. Maybe

37:32

in this age of AI, we can

37:34

create more conscious AI. And

37:36

I think we had a very interesting

37:38

intersection because, like Deepug always

37:41

says, we have medieval mindset

37:43

but very godlike technologies at

37:45

our disposal. So we better be

37:47

conscious as a global

37:49

community how we.

37:51

Leverage but also put it to good use.

37:53

I think today just think about it, every forty

37:56

seconds we lose someone to suicide globally. The

37:58

are not enough therapists in this country.

38:01

It takes six weeks to get appointment.

38:03

That's based on statistics. We have

38:06

to use technology during the pandemic.

38:08

The foundation we deployed any being a technology

38:10

di chatbot, we thought maybe left

38:13

twenty thousand users. Maybe, you know,

38:15

we had more than twenty six million messages

38:17

exchanged on the platform, sixteen

38:20

million minutes of conversation and four

38:22

eight hundred suicidal ideation interventions.

38:25

Right, this is on a simple chatbot.

38:27

But now that can be used for good.

38:30

How do we use it as an intervention? Because

38:32

I think there is a certain amount of use of technolo.

38:35

This is the use of technology using zoom, right,

38:37

but we shouldn't be dependent on that as the only

38:39

means of communication.

38:42

Share shared with Kevin

38:44

whatfit did with the mayor of Mammy.

38:47

You know, yes, he and this have

38:50

bonded it now because we created

38:52

a game for them on roadblocks.

38:54

So we're basically thinking, you know, when you think.

38:56

About gaming, he said, okay, it's this and that, right,

38:58

you cannot game. So we said, we go to

39:00

roadblocks. Everybody is on roadblocks. Why don't

39:03

we create yoga and meditation on

39:05

zuo roadblocks And we said, let's kind of use

39:07

that as a platform. And now the

39:10

father and son can both play together.

39:12

Right, and those are things experiences

39:14

like father and son used to go camping. Maybe

39:16

now we go to go a little bit of a given take father

39:19

and son player game together and then they go

39:21

camping.

39:22

Right, I think this.

39:23

Bonding, we have to also meet

39:25

in the middle. It's not this or that. I

39:28

think that train has left the station.

39:30

Like we are doing a lot of things in immersive meditations

39:33

these days. With the technology is brain and

39:35

trainment. Right when you go, when you

39:37

use light, photoic stimulation, sound

39:40

by neuural beats, we can shift

39:42

change your reality. So when meditation

39:45

used to be an ice closed experience one

39:47

on one, we worked with a company

39:49

to create this immersive experiences, which we

39:51

believe now it's going to be the collective

39:53

shared experience.

39:54

As we go to the future amazing.

39:57

What would you say is the most pressing need

39:59

that the organization has. Now you've spoken a

40:01

lot about mental health. I suppose it's it's mental

40:03

health and mostly or partly

40:07

amongst young people.

40:09

I would say it's both ends of the spectrum. I think the

40:11

younger suffering and the older suffering.

40:13

Right, I think it's both ends of the spectrum.

40:15

So one ENVI have mental health among young adults.

40:18

We also have a very big issue with cognitive

40:20

decline arkinsas Alzeiber's

40:22

design dementia. So our

40:24

goal of the foundation look at both. I look

40:27

at this end of the spectrum. It's loneliness,

40:29

right, How do we create community? And

40:32

I think, Deepuk, we have a program called

40:34

Love and Action where we want to create love

40:37

as the operating system of communities. We

40:39

really be separated the young and the old right

40:41

when they actually maybe it should be together. And

40:44

so when we want to kind of this the

40:46

other program go Love and Action. When

40:48

Deepuk, maybe you want to share this is the four tenants

40:50

of how communities can come together?

40:53

Deepug? Do you want to share that?

40:54

Yeah? Well, you know in Eastern

40:57

wisdom traditions they say when

40:59

you have shared vision, when you have maximum

41:02

diversity participants,

41:05

ethnic diversity, racial diversity,

41:08

diversity in education, storytelling,

41:10

humanity, science experts.

41:13

So shared vision maximum diversity,

41:16

leveraging each other's strengths because

41:19

we all have different strengths and a

41:21

spiritual and emotional bond

41:23

of some kind, then you can solve

41:25

any problem. So I took that seriously

41:28

and we created this thing called Never Alone dot

41:30

Love and basically we connect

41:33

people with each other and we have

41:36

four things that we talk about.

41:39

Attention deep listening to each other, Affection,

41:42

deep caring for each other, appreciation,

41:45

noticing everyone's uniqueness, and

41:48

radical acceptance doesn't matter who you

41:50

are, you know, binary, non bordinary,

41:53

black, white, yellow, whatever.

41:56

Radical acceptance of everyone. And

41:58

so you know, this is part of our

42:00

attempt now to create both global

42:04

online and offline communities

42:06

of support for each other. Attention,

42:08

affection, appreciation and acceptance.

42:11

And they also combine it with leadership. So

42:13

you know, recently I was in Sweden and

42:16

I had no idea that in

42:18

Sweden there's an African

42:21

Swedish population much like African

42:23

American population, which is very marginalized,

42:26

where crime rate is high, unemployment

42:29

is high, illness is high, depression

42:32

is high. So you know, I started

42:34

to work with them, and it turned out that the

42:37

Obama former President Obama, has

42:40

a forum called Global leaders

42:43

and we worked with them in Sweden to

42:46

actually create a new leadership

42:48

for the Swedish American community.

42:50

We've done the same here in Queens

42:53

in New York, where the crime rate actually

42:55

went down by ninety nine percent,

42:58

so much so that you know, Ponacha

43:01

and I have now worked are

43:03

working with the school system in

43:06

New York and in

43:09

corporate leadership training for young people,

43:11

because I think you give them

43:13

purpose, you give them passion, you give

43:15

them connectivity, and you create

43:18

an emotional bond. The

43:20

best example is sports teams. They have

43:22

shared vision. You know, at least

43:24

in sports like

43:27

we say baseball or not baseball,

43:29

football and other sports soccer.

43:32

You have those elements.

43:33

You know, everybody's supporting

43:36

each other, they're emotionally connected,

43:38

they want to win all they're

43:40

not even competing with each other. They're leveraging

43:43

each other's strengths. That's a great

43:45

model for leadership.

43:47

I gotta say, I think this is all great,

43:50

great work that you

43:52

guys are doing, and it's been

43:54

an absolutely fascinating conversation.

43:57

I'm going to be mentally tuning on this

44:00

for some time. What is the This

44:02

is a call to action now, I mean how can.

44:03

People get involved?

44:04

Could be pitch the websites and and

44:07

and and let's let's hear how how

44:09

people can check out this great work.

44:11

I think we have a website with Schoprofoundation

44:14

dot org, which I did to share in the link.

44:16

Okay, that are We also.

44:17

Have a platform called CFI CFI

44:20

dot Chopra Foundation dot org.

44:22

Courses.

44:23

We have the Soul of Leadership course and Piece of

44:25

the Way course if people can go on

44:27

sign up and roll and we also

44:30

everybody updated on our website on a

44:32

newsletter, subscribe and.

44:34

We will keep them updated.

44:35

And also right back to us, I think it's

44:37

co creation, right we as we

44:39

co create together for more peaceful,

44:42

just sustainable, healthy and joyful world. And

44:44

your platform with what you are doing, is

44:47

also a great enabler for us to share this message.

44:51

Well, I want to thank you both so much

44:53

for being here today, and I,

44:56

like I said, it's been a fascinating conversation

45:00

and I think I'm going to have to listen back

45:02

to this one to kind

45:04

of reabsorb some of the things that we spoke

45:07

about. And so

45:09

thank you, thank you so much for being here and

45:12

keep up the great work you know we

45:15

need it.

45:16

Thank you, Kevin.

45:20

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening

45:22

to another episode of Six Degrees with

45:24

Kevin Bacon. And if you want to learn more

45:26

about the Deep Pop Chopra Foundation

45:28

and all the work that they are up to,

45:30

head to their website, the

45:33

Chopra Foundation dot

45:35

org. You can find all the links in our

45:37

show notes, and if you like what you hear,

45:40

please make sure you subscribe to the show tune

45:42

into the rest of our episodes. You can find

45:44

Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon on iHeartRadio,

45:48

Apple Podcasts, or wherever

45:50

you get your podcasts. I see

45:52

you next time.