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1:22

Well, hey there and welcome to episode

1:24

number 980 of Six Pixels of Separation,

1:26

The Thinkers One podcast. My

1:29

name is Mitch Joel. It's Sunday, April

1:31

the 20th, 2025. Let's get on with

1:33

the show. So,

1:46

who are you and what do you do? I'm Tamara

1:48

Miles and I wear a lot

1:50

of hats. I am a professor at

1:52

Boston College. I'm an instructor of

1:54

positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania,

1:57

where I'm also a researcher out

1:59

of the Positive Psychology Center. I

2:01

am a speaker and

2:03

leadership trainer and I'm a

2:05

mom of three teenagers. Oh,

2:08

yeah. And you've got a new

2:10

book out called Meaningful Work. That's

2:12

right. I am a co -author

2:14

of a book about how leaders

2:16

can make work more meaningful. Okay,

2:18

so let's start off in an area I

2:21

typically don't like doing, which is tell me a

2:23

bit about what this is or what that

2:25

is because I want people to do a bit

2:27

of the work. But I do think that

2:29

positive psychology might not necessarily be a known entity

2:31

to everyone. Explain what it

2:33

is and how it differs when we

2:35

hear the word psychology. We obviously

2:37

go in one specific direction. This is

2:39

quite different, I think. Yeah, positive

2:41

psychology is the study of human happiness

2:43

and well -being. Whereas

2:45

traditional psychology for many years

2:48

focused on fixing pathology

2:50

and helping us feel better,

2:52

which is really important,

2:54

but it's not the whole

2:56

picture. None of us

2:58

want to be just less depressed

3:00

or less anxious. We want to

3:02

flourish. We want to be happy. We

3:04

want to be engaged. We want to have

3:06

strong, positive relationships. And so

3:08

in 1998, Marty Seligman, when he

3:10

was the president of the

3:12

American Psychological Association, he made this

3:14

call for psychology to broaden

3:16

and expand and look at human

3:19

flourishing. And so that's what

3:21

positive psychology is, is the study,

3:23

the scientific study of what

3:25

makes life worth living. Okay, so

3:27

we have that, and then

3:29

we also have this conundrum, which

3:31

is we spend most of

3:33

our waking hours at this thing

3:35

called work. And the

3:37

bridge to that is I'm assuming

3:39

the idea of meaningful work. And

3:41

I vacillate on this topic

3:43

a lot, which is why I

3:45

was so excited at the conversation.

3:48

On one hand, I think I've

3:50

been very fortuitous in the

3:52

ability to pursue the things that

3:54

provide meaning to myself. And

3:56

I think there's a lot of luck that comes with

3:58

the fact that I've had a good outcome of it.

4:01

I often will look at peers and I

4:03

wonder if you went back and told

4:05

your 16 year old self that you were

4:07

a sales enablement training manager, like what

4:09

they would say for some business, the business

4:11

ass software. And that we'd also

4:13

live in a world where there's a lot

4:15

of things that just need to get done

4:17

from service based to garbage to plumbing to

4:19

painting and on and on and on. And

4:21

I'm not saying those roles can't have meaning.

4:23

Of course they can. But you're

4:25

dealing with this wide spectrum of what

4:28

work is and why we do

4:30

work. Tell me how you land

4:32

on this area of meaning. So

4:34

there's a lot to unpack and I'm

4:36

excited for this question. So I'll start by

4:38

saying that you mentioned we spend a

4:40

huge chunk of our times at work, a

4:42

third of our lives, and we spend

4:44

more time at work than with our family

4:46

and friends and loved ones, right? And

4:49

so because of the amount

4:51

of time we spend at work

4:53

i really truly believe that

4:55

that time should be meaningful it

4:57

should matter we should feel

4:59

like what we're doing. every day

5:01

means something. And so

5:03

that's the general idea is this

5:05

feeling like, does what I do every

5:07

day matter? Does it matter to

5:10

somebody outside of myself? Is it am

5:12

I making a positive difference in

5:14

the world? And what we

5:16

find again and again and again

5:18

is that there's a huge

5:20

misconception about what work can be

5:22

meaningful. When we say meaningful

5:24

work, people automatically think of helping

5:26

professions and non -profit impact work.

5:29

And sure, those types of

5:31

jobs have qualities that make it

5:33

maybe a little bit easier

5:35

for you to see the impact

5:37

of what you're doing every

5:39

day. And we find that

5:41

every single job can be

5:43

meaningful. We studied organizations across

5:45

25 industries. And in all

5:47

those industries, people found meaning in

5:50

their work. So meaning

5:52

doesn't come only from this purpose

5:54

-driven work. And that's a huge

5:56

misconception. People often use

5:58

meaning and purpose very interchangeably, but

6:00

purpose is only one part

6:02

of meaningful work. The other two

6:04

parts are the sense of

6:06

community and the positive relationships that

6:08

we have with other people

6:10

in our workplaces. And then the

6:12

third part is this sense

6:14

of challenge. Am I growing? Am

6:16

I learning something new? Am

6:18

I reaching my potential? And

6:20

so in every single job, we can

6:23

find community, we can find a sense of

6:25

contribution, and we can find this sense

6:27

of challenge. So when someone

6:29

says something, and I hate to

6:31

sing, by the way, it's business,

6:33

nothing personal. What do you think? Well,

6:37

I think that It's

6:39

really hard for us when we

6:41

spend so much time at work to

6:43

separate it that much and to

6:45

say, well, it is personal.

6:47

I'm giving the best of

6:49

myself. We want it to

6:51

matter. We all inherently want

6:53

to contribute. We're wired for

6:55

growth and for contribution. I

6:59

mean, it really depends on what

7:01

context I guess you're being told

7:03

this. It's okay for me to

7:05

screw you over or win in

7:07

a negotiation or win in a

7:10

deal that is very lopsided because

7:12

it's only personal. We're just trying

7:14

to make stuff happen. Yeah, I

7:16

think this is such an outdated

7:18

kind of false dichotomy. I mean,

7:20

it's current still, but there's decades

7:22

of research that shows that the

7:25

outcomes are better. when we all

7:27

do better. And so it's

7:29

the whole idea of like doing good

7:31

and doing well. And I mean, there's so

7:33

much data that shows that I'm going

7:35

to focus on meaningful work. But when people

7:37

experience work as meaningful, their

7:40

productivity gains, retention

7:42

improved, we're much more

7:44

engaged. We're more likely

7:46

to recommend our product and our

7:48

organization to others. We're willing to take

7:50

less money, not that that leaders

7:52

I'm not advocating for leaders paying people

7:55

less because the work is meaningful

7:57

but I'm saying people want meaningful work

7:59

so much that they're willing to

8:01

switch jobs for work that's more meaningful

8:03

even if it pays less. So

8:06

walk me through when

8:08

this came to fruition. This

8:10

idea that work should be meaningful

8:12

that work isn't transactional that I

8:15

do these things and the output

8:17

of this is I get money

8:19

which allows me to do the

8:21

other things, that we are so

8:23

intrinsically connected that we are now

8:25

looking for meaning within this unique

8:27

thing that human beings do. We

8:29

don't see this with many other

8:31

species. Yeah. I

8:33

mean, meaning in general, not meaning for

8:35

meaning in life is something that

8:37

we're all wired for. Philosophy has dealt

8:39

with this for millennia. Victor Frankl,

8:42

right? Men search for meaning. It

8:44

talks about this whole idea of like

8:46

when we have meaning, we can endure

8:48

anyhow, right? And so this

8:50

idea that that meaning is so

8:52

important for us as humans, that

8:54

we make meaning the stories that

8:56

we tell ourselves about our experience,

8:58

kind of shape that experience and

9:00

shape how we show up in

9:02

our huge part of our well -being.

9:04

Meaning is one of the pillars

9:06

of well -being, according to Marty

9:08

Seligman's perma theory of well -being. And

9:10

so this idea that meaning can

9:13

extend beyond just our personal lives

9:15

into work makes a lot of

9:17

sense because, again, we spend so

9:19

much of our time at

9:21

work that, of course, we're

9:23

kind of searching for meaning

9:25

at work, too. We

9:27

want that time that we spend creating,

9:30

tinkering, or whatever it is that we're

9:32

doing at work. We want it to

9:34

add up to something. We want it

9:36

to mean something. We want it to

9:38

contribute to the world. Do we

9:40

know why, though, that it hasn't shifted then

9:42

in that favor? Like, why this is a

9:44

struggle? Why do people struggle with this?

9:46

Why do leaders struggle with this? Why do

9:48

just a business structure? If we

9:51

are truly this way, why isn't it

9:53

set up to resolve for that? Yeah.

9:55

So I think part of it

9:57

is this whole... dichotomy. And

10:00

you know, I think there's just

10:02

like so much research on motivation.

10:04

I mean, Dan Pink published his

10:06

book years ago. And still we

10:08

fail to incorporate this research into

10:10

the day to day because we

10:13

were set up as this like

10:15

transactional kind of work machine and

10:17

it keeps self perpetuating. So that's

10:19

one reason I think another reason

10:21

is because a lot of the

10:23

research on meaningful work has been

10:26

done from the individual experience. And

10:28

So how can I tomorrow go

10:30

create more meaning in my work

10:32

for myself? And that's really important

10:34

because meaning is a highly individual

10:36

experience. But our research was the

10:38

first one to look at the

10:41

leader's role and the leadership practices

10:43

that can enable meaning at work. When

10:46

we were starting the

10:48

research, we spoke with a

10:50

lot of researchers and practitioners and consultants

10:52

and just trying to get the lay of

10:54

the land. And it was Tom Rath, he's

10:57

the author of Strengths Finder. And

11:00

he told us, he's like, it's great

11:02

that you guys are doing this. Like leaders

11:04

know, they know they need to make

11:06

work meaningful. They just don't know how. And

11:09

so I think that was a big

11:11

part of the missing. How

11:13

do you do that? What are the practices?

11:15

Is it simple enough? Does it

11:17

cost too much? And then we

11:19

just happened to be doing the

11:21

study and then COVID hit. And

11:24

meaningful work really kind

11:26

of rose to the, you

11:28

know, to the top

11:30

kind of level of the

11:32

conversation because now, and

11:34

still now, you were five

11:36

years later and people

11:38

are still putting meaningful

11:40

work as the number one or two

11:42

priority that they're looking for when they're

11:45

looking for jobs. I think it was

11:47

a combination of the pandemic, the

11:49

Gen Z entering the workforce, people

11:51

having a little bit more time to

11:54

question their work and what they're doing

11:56

and how much it matters and all

11:58

of that. So I think there's a

12:00

huge call for meaningful work. So this

12:02

becomes the thorn in my side with

12:04

all of this, which is I can

12:06

believe in it as much as I

12:08

want to believe in it. I can

12:10

Will this to be that we're going

12:12

to live in a world where we

12:14

have the sense of community and we're

12:16

adding contributions we're feeling challenged love three

12:18

C's I found three C's at my

12:20

other business content commerce community so little

12:22

nuances there. But we

12:24

did have this thing happen five

12:26

years ago and we did have

12:28

people spend more time reflecting more

12:30

people doing copies and then the

12:32

output of that. became the

12:34

most contentious components of work that I

12:36

had ever seen in my professional career,

12:38

that we had the great, the great

12:40

dot dot dot, you want to name

12:42

it, the great unraveling, the great this,

12:44

now we have this new one, the

12:47

great detachment they're calling it, which is

12:49

even worse than the great resignation. We

12:51

see people doing return to office,

12:53

we see businesses that we would have

12:55

lauded in terms of somewhat fulfilling

12:57

on these three C promises before now

12:59

being called cults. And this is

13:02

where my mind always goes, which is

13:04

I can read meaningful work and

13:06

the work of Zeynepton and all these

13:08

other people who've been on my

13:10

show and nod graciously along with them.

13:12

But then if I look at

13:14

the actual marketplace, but the general sentiment

13:16

feels like we're moving in the

13:18

other direction that we didn't say, wow,

13:20

look, we had this crazy moment

13:22

in time. Let's benefit from that. We

13:24

figured out new ways to work.

13:26

We figured out all these things. And

13:29

yet we're seeing these numbers that

13:31

are somewhat catastrophic. In

13:33

terms of actual infrastructure, I mean, Amazon

13:35

I think recently said that over

13:37

50 % of the workforce within Amazon

13:39

is currently looking for new work because

13:41

of their return to office mandate.

13:43

Right. Like that's astonishing, not just because

13:46

it's a crazy number, but prior

13:48

to COVID, if you ever spent

13:50

any time at day one in Seattle, you'd be

13:52

like, there's a garden here. They're giving out free

13:54

bananas. Like people love working here. They're smiling. They're

13:56

going to sweet green for lunch. They feel they're

13:58

hitting these three C's. built it around the three

14:00

C and suddenly we're looking at that and saying

14:02

they're the enemy. Yeah. I

14:05

mean, there's just been so

14:07

much change. so

14:09

fast, right? And we're seeing like

14:11

it's been so reactive. Because

14:13

first, of course, we had to

14:15

react to the pandemic and

14:17

new ways of working. And then

14:19

there was such a huge

14:21

emphasis during that time on like

14:23

employee well -being and resilience training.

14:25

And I was so hopeful

14:28

that... Me too! ...the pendulum swung.

14:30

And now it's like, oh my gosh, it's swinging

14:33

so hard the other way. I

14:35

think it'll normalize if you look at trends

14:37

over time, these things. tend to happen.

14:39

It swings one way, it swings the

14:41

other, it normalizes. We turn to office

14:43

just to double click on that for a

14:45

little bit. I think we are seeing

14:47

a lot of the big companies and

14:49

they make a splash. And of

14:51

course, news kind of covers

14:54

those. And there's also a lot

14:56

of organizations that have changed

14:58

their ways of working, that have

15:00

embraced, that are working

15:02

to when they come together to

15:04

make that time together be

15:07

about building community and strengthening relationships.

15:09

They understand that culture doesn't

15:11

only live inside the walls of

15:13

an organization, but you can

15:15

have a strong culture, even if

15:17

it's distributed, even if it's

15:20

hybrid. Which they had

15:22

before COVID, like in fairness to all

15:24

this. We did. We had 3 ,000

15:26

people in 20 countries. We had Skype.

15:28

We had virtual walls with people. We

15:30

had all that. Yeah,

15:32

Nick Bloom, I mean,

15:35

at Sanford, he's been

15:37

studying virtual and distributed

15:39

and hybrid workplaces way

15:41

before COVID, during COVID,

15:43

and he still continued to study

15:45

it after. I think we learned a

15:47

lot of lessons that we can

15:49

use to make work better, and

15:51

I think that it's still a

15:53

struggle i think it's easier in a

15:55

way for leaders to be like

15:58

hi everybody back to the office now

16:00

work as usual then to figure

16:02

out like how do we bring people

16:04

together with intention how to make

16:06

the best use of people's time if

16:08

we want to try this hybrid

16:10

it's charting new territory and figuring out

16:12

new things and everybody's busy and

16:15

overwhelmed and so i think it feels

16:17

easier to just mandate. And

16:19

from what I'm reading, another big part

16:21

of this mandate is people trying to cut

16:23

their workforce and knowing that there will

16:25

be attrition and hoping for that. Yeah, and

16:27

AI, and we'll get to all those

16:29

for sure. I like the idea of thought

16:31

experiments, especially with people who are much

16:33

smarter than me in the space, and definitely

16:35

are. I'm curious, I'll

16:38

throw two thoughts at you, and then

16:40

let's just talk about that. One is, like,

16:43

why? Why can't work just

16:45

be about money if We're

16:47

in a world where these

16:49

people are working from home.

16:52

They're enjoying more amorphous schedules.

16:54

I'm able to do yoga at around 11. I can

16:57

take my dog for a walk. I attend all my

16:59

meetings. I do all my tasks. So

17:01

if work is more transactional, which is ultimately

17:03

how I think a lot of people feel about

17:05

it, what if we actually

17:07

ditched all this stuff and said okay

17:09

Lynn let's do that let's just make

17:11

it transactional what would be so wrong

17:13

with that as a thought experiment yeah

17:15

and i think that there's absolutely nothing

17:17

wrong with that work can be when

17:19

the research on meaningful work about like

17:21

the individual experience of meaningful work they

17:23

see that people usually there's like three

17:25

categories of people that see work as

17:28

a job. as a career and

17:30

as a calling and the job

17:32

people are exactly what you're saying. Work

17:34

is transactional. It's just an economic

17:36

exchange of labor for money and I

17:38

get in and I do that.

17:40

And my community is where I find

17:42

my meaning. I find my meaning

17:44

with my family and my religious organization

17:46

or whatever it is. And that's

17:48

absolutely fine. The career people

17:50

are people who see job as a

17:52

way to advance and grow. And

17:54

that's great too. And then the calling

17:56

are obviously the people who inherently

17:58

find meaning in their work in any

18:00

kind of profession that they're in.

18:02

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

18:05

And I'm not necessarily advocating that

18:07

like, all right, you need to find

18:09

your meaning at work. Not

18:12

at all. If you want

18:14

work to just be a

18:16

transaction, great. And it's human

18:18

nature to tell stories and

18:20

to make meaning and create

18:22

coherence out of our experiences.

18:25

And so most of

18:27

us do somehow get

18:29

caught up in this

18:31

experience, this transactional experience

18:34

of, ah, you know, my

18:36

co -workers say this and you tell stories about the

18:38

people you work with or whether or not you

18:40

feel included, whether or not you sense belonging. And

18:43

so I think that for

18:45

most people who are trying

18:47

to increase their

18:49

own well -being, to be happier. Work

18:51

is such a big part of

18:53

life that it's one pathway to

18:55

increase your well -being is to

18:57

kind of, for your work experience,

19:00

to feel meaningful, you

19:02

know? Yeah. So one of the

19:04

things in the book that I thought

19:06

was interesting was this thought of

19:08

where it lands meaning. And

19:10

it's clear that you're explaining it, I

19:12

think, from more of a top -down.

19:14

then what maybe was traditionally more of

19:16

a bottom -up, you should find meaning and

19:18

good luck doing that. In

19:20

the book, you said that nearly 50 % of an

19:23

employee's experience of meaning at work is tied to

19:25

what their leaders do or fail to do. I'm

19:28

curious why you're going down this

19:30

path and in fairness to the

19:32

idea that it's not even Amazon.

19:34

I think I saw an even

19:36

more significant number that 70 %

19:38

or 80 % of leaders are looking

19:40

to change their work. So

19:43

this is where also I start going like,

19:45

oh, how does this work? If you're saying to

19:47

the leaders, you have to provide this. And

19:49

the leaders are saying, we're actually out of here

19:51

too. That reconciliation becomes

19:54

even more complex. So it's one

19:56

thing to have a great resignation. But

19:58

what they're talking about now is

20:00

this great detachment and that it's not

20:02

just the employees, it's actually the

20:04

leaders too. And so again,

20:06

I'm in a place of going like, ooh,

20:08

like. We're asking leaders to do something but they

20:10

in the of themselves are looking for something

20:12

else like how challenging is that environment. Yeah

20:14

i mean gosh i can't

20:17

imagine you're. Asking even more

20:19

community of us are looking

20:21

for the exactly so. So

20:23

two things that I'll say.

20:25

So yes, it is, me

20:27

has mostly been a bottom

20:29

up, create it for yourself,

20:31

your good luck. And

20:33

I, and my co -author

20:35

and research partner, Wes, like we really, I

20:38

mean, we've been in environments that

20:40

unexpectedly were really meaningful. I worked

20:42

in advertising before, you know, I

20:45

started my own business and did

20:47

the author researcher and all of

20:49

that path, but it's not an

20:51

industry that you expect. to be

20:53

meaningful at all. And work

20:55

was really meaningful. We had

20:57

a meaningful agency there too. I

20:59

loved it. I really did.

21:02

But then I switched agencies. That

21:04

was not my experience and I was

21:06

like, okay, so it's not really the

21:09

job. It's not really this and it's

21:11

not really. So part of it was

21:13

trying to understand my own experience and

21:15

he came from social impact work, nonprofit,

21:17

which he expected to be truly meaningful

21:19

and it wasn't. Like he was in

21:21

some meaningful work environment, some toxic work

21:23

environments. And so we both had this

21:25

like very different backgrounds that converged, but

21:27

also part of it is We exist

21:30

in systems. It's not fair to put

21:32

the burden on the individual when that

21:34

individual is operating in a system. It's

21:36

almost impossible. But can I push back

21:38

just a little bit on that? Because

21:40

it was one of my thoughts when

21:42

I came to the end of meaningful

21:44

work where I thought, oh, maybe

21:46

you actually made the argument

21:49

that myself as the employee needs

21:51

to be much more present

21:53

and resolute in what I'm doing.

21:55

That if I'm just pursuing

21:57

the job title and the money

21:59

or whatever it is, that

22:01

might be buyer -beware. But if

22:03

I spend much more time

22:05

actually analyzing what type of community

22:08

is there, what type of

22:10

contributions do people at my level

22:12

make in these organizations? How

22:14

are they being challenged that maybe the output

22:16

does work? that instead of it being reliant

22:18

on somebody to build something which is really

22:20

challenging because everyone has different feelings emotions, things

22:22

they want to get done. What if we

22:24

actually did put it back on the employee

22:26

and say, spend more time. I know you

22:28

need money, I know you're panicked about rent,

22:30

but getting a job and then being miserable

22:32

and like, so where does that

22:35

kind of fit into that? I think

22:37

it's both and I think the data

22:39

shows exactly that. Our data show that

22:41

48 % of the experience of medium

22:43

work is directly what leaders do and

22:45

don't do, right? Well, the other 52%. Yeah,

22:48

I saw the 50%, I was

22:50

like, well, that means it's also. Yeah,

22:52

so it's on both. And I

22:54

think people try to do it for

22:56

themselves. But if their leaders are

22:58

not pulling the other half, it's really

23:00

hard. So it's great when it's

23:02

a both and situation, when the leaders

23:04

are doing that. And then for

23:06

the leaders who, I mean, for

23:08

the ones that are checked out and looking for

23:10

another job already, I'm not sure.

23:12

Maybe they go for the other job. Maybe

23:15

plus 50 % though, like what do

23:17

we do? Yeah. So maybe they can,

23:19

in their next organization, they can start

23:21

fresh with these practices in mind and

23:23

may or may not meaningful. But if

23:25

you're a leader or a manager or

23:27

somebody who's really trying to increase meaning

23:29

for your team, but you are not

23:32

experiencing work as meaningful for yourselves. Social

23:34

science research finds that the best

23:36

way to increase your own happiness is

23:39

to go and do random acts

23:41

of kindness for others, to make others

23:43

happy, to express gratitude. When those

23:45

things happen, when you think of others

23:47

and you do things for others,

23:49

not only does their happiness increase, but

23:51

your own happiness also increases. And

23:54

it's the same with meaning. When

23:56

you start a building community and

23:58

highlighting people's contributions and giving them

24:00

meaningful challenges to grow and learn

24:02

with support, you will find that

24:04

they will find their work much

24:06

more meaningful. You will also find

24:08

your work much more meaningful. So

24:10

it's a virtuous cycle. It's

24:13

somewhat surprising to me that

24:15

the angle was leaders and not

24:17

HR or L &D. It would

24:19

feel to me that that's

24:21

the middleware here. That's the real

24:23

opportunity is if they restructure

24:25

their department in a way where

24:27

they're hiring for meaning and

24:29

not mercenary, that that in and

24:31

of itself might create some

24:33

of the waves that would create

24:36

the actual tsunami in a

24:38

positive way of getting to where

24:40

you need to be. It

24:42

feels like they feel more overwhelmed

24:44

than ever. Turnover is so huge

24:46

and that ultimately, it

24:48

feels that there would be more inclined

24:51

to lean towards the mercenary because the

24:53

job will get done. We can worry

24:55

about the other woo woo later. Do

24:57

you see, how do you see that component

24:59

of business? Do you find that they're, I've

25:02

spoken at these events with HR professionals

25:04

and it's all about meaning and the

25:06

employee at the center. And then it's

25:08

like, you know, we got to get

25:10

this work done. Yeah. So a couple

25:12

of things. Yes. In our study, the

25:14

more that organization set up their structures

25:16

to support these practices, the

25:18

better it is for everyone because

25:20

then it's part of just the

25:22

culture and the practices and the

25:24

policies and it's how we do

25:27

things around here. So some examples

25:29

of that are hiring and onboarding

25:31

practices. Like that was a surprising

25:33

finding from the study is that

25:35

beginnings really matter in organizations that

25:37

have already prioritize meaning in

25:39

different interactions and different levels, really higher

25:41

for that. They hire candidates that

25:44

care about the same things that they

25:46

do, that are values driven, whose

25:48

values match. And some of them, like

25:50

Zappos was when we interviewed in

25:52

Chick -fil -A, like they will not hire

25:54

somebody who might have all the

25:56

skills and be like the best, let's

25:58

say they need somebody technical when

26:00

they might have the best technical skills.

26:02

But if they fail the HR,

26:04

like values interview, they do not get

26:07

hired. And so that's one

26:09

policy way that leaders really make

26:11

sure that meaningful work is ingrained

26:13

at all levels. And if

26:15

you are a leader of

26:17

a team and you don't have

26:19

a lot of say on

26:21

the policies, on hiring and onboarding

26:23

other policies of the organization, you

26:26

can still infuse your team's

26:28

work with meaning, your own

26:30

work. Because what we found

26:32

is that meaningful work happens

26:34

in moments, moments that matter.

26:36

And so it's require an

26:38

entire overhaul of the organization

26:40

and a huge culture transformation.

26:43

It can start in your next meeting.

26:45

It was interesting when I thought

26:47

about it from that perspective that, like

26:49

you said, there's not a lot of heavy

26:51

lifting to do this, really, in terms of

26:54

being practical. There are little things we could

26:56

do every day. In fact, it was somewhat

26:58

surprising to me that those were the answers

27:00

because whether we were doing it intentionally

27:02

under a model of 3C or not, I

27:04

would have argued that back when we had

27:06

this business before I sold it, that that's

27:08

exactly what you're doing. You're checking in on

27:10

people. You're making sure that they're doing well.

27:12

We kind of know that if they're not

27:14

doing these things, they're not going to be

27:16

that effective at the work. And we do

27:18

have a role in their professional development. You

27:20

don't want to be in a place where

27:23

at the end of the day, someone says,

27:25

I didn't really grow there. I didn't learn

27:27

anything. It wasn't really great. I mean, you

27:29

don't have a business if you don't have

27:31

that. Right? It's kind of strange that, like, the

27:33

things we're talking about as being this modern

27:35

way of thinking about meaning, it just seems like,

27:37

well, that's what good businesses always do, or

27:40

good people always do. Yeah, but

27:42

there's... So, yes, I fully agree

27:44

with you. When we started coding

27:46

the data, we started out with

27:48

qualitative research, and when we started

27:50

coding the data, I was a

27:52

little bit disappointed. Yeah. To

27:54

be honest, because I was like, oh, are

27:56

you kidding me? This is like a

27:58

common sense stuff. Like who doesn't do that?

28:00

I was hoping to discover this like

28:02

new thing that and then the more I

28:04

thought about it and the more we

28:06

kept uncovering these stories and the more we

28:08

learned, the more my

28:11

perspective changed. It's like,

28:13

okay, these are like really

28:15

simple. But they're

28:17

not easy, and they are common

28:19

sense, but they're not common

28:21

practice. Because if they were common

28:23

practice, we would have a

28:25

highly engaged, ultra productive workforce that

28:28

feels super connected and who

28:30

stays when they're organizations for their

28:32

careers. And instead, we have

28:34

a loneliness crisis. People

28:36

who are always looking for jobs

28:38

and so in the engagement numbers keep

28:40

dropping. And so these are common

28:43

sense, but not common practice. And I

28:45

think that's kind of the beauty

28:47

of it is because they are simple,

28:50

it's more likely that leaders will do

28:52

it because when it's super complicated and

28:54

requires a whole overhaul when, you

28:56

know, who has time and energy for that? So

28:58

we can talk about generational then,

29:01

but what I may be thinking,

29:03

and again, this is armchair psychologist

29:05

after what you're saying is one

29:07

of the things I try to

29:09

express to people I work with

29:11

is It's increasingly difficult to be

29:14

successful because everybody has unreasonable expectations,

29:16

period. I can swipe

29:19

left or right and find someone to

29:21

mate with faster than I can usually

29:23

find a contact email information on someone's

29:25

website. I will talk about how impossible

29:27

it would be to extract Amazon from my

29:29

life or how much I've changed as a

29:31

person. So you need to buy. We had

29:33

this conversation on the radio the other day

29:35

where the host was saying how they needed

29:37

to buy some specialized dance shoes for their

29:39

wife. And so they wanted to buy local.

29:41

They didn't want to do the Amazon thing.

29:43

They went down to the store. It's a

29:46

lovely area where we live in Montreal. And

29:48

there was a sign on the door saying, you

29:50

know, unfortunately, due to unforeseen circumstances, we're closed today. We're

29:52

not open. So they go home and they look

29:54

and the next day they're open only at 12. And

29:56

then they called and they don't have the model.

29:58

And in all that time and experience, they could have

30:00

just ordered on Amazon. It was there the next

30:02

day. And I'm saying that.

30:04

in a facetious way to create this

30:06

idea that even if the place

30:08

is great. And I use the Google

30:10

story all the time. I

30:12

mean, you can do your dry cleaning there. There's

30:14

nine different chefs. There's a campus. You

30:16

can work out. There's a free gym. There's all

30:19

this glass door where the individuals are ranking and

30:21

are saying, this is the best place in the

30:23

world to work. It's impossible to get a job

30:25

there. And suddenly it's the devil and it's evil

30:27

and it's a cult. Is

30:29

it more that it's not anything

30:31

other than we've become somewhat unreasonable

30:33

because we expect work to provide

30:35

us with all of these things

30:37

that candidly maybe can't deliver on

30:39

because that engine is driven by

30:41

capitalism? Yeah. Well,

30:44

I'm not sure. I think

30:46

Google had some other problems

30:48

that bubbled up with whistleblowers

30:50

and pockets of things that

30:52

were going wrong in me. It's hard when

30:54

you get a company that big. Exactly. It's

30:57

a country. Yeah, like they're to

30:59

be dissident citizens in every country. Yes.

31:02

And then I think that the, I

31:04

think you're absolutely right. Like

31:06

our expectations have gotten out of

31:08

control when part of it

31:10

is social media and the social

31:13

comparison. Everybody's putting forward their Best

31:15

curated lives and even though

31:17

at a rational level we

31:19

know that this is not

31:21

their real lives at an

31:23

emotional level we feel like

31:26

everybody has a better job than we

31:28

do. Everybody's prettier. They're taking better

31:30

vacations. Their families all get along. You

31:32

know what I mean? Everybody's lives

31:35

are better. And I think this is,

31:37

and I know, right? Jonathan Haidt

31:39

has done amazing research and his book

31:41

is amazing. He's fighting the fight.

31:43

His generation is great. Yeah. Great book

31:45

and Gene Twainy's research. I mean,

31:48

there's a lot of research that shows

31:50

that it's probably a huge cause

31:52

of our big divide. And So

31:55

I think there

31:57

is that problem of

31:59

the expectations got

32:01

skewed. Such a

32:03

nice way to say it.

32:05

The expectations have been skewed.

32:07

For sure. And I think

32:09

the discourse on the generational divide

32:11

is worse than it is in

32:13

reality because when we look at

32:15

the data, we see that

32:18

everyone cares. about meaningful

32:20

work. Every generation, from the

32:22

greatest generation to Gen Z, they all

32:24

want to work to feel meaningful

32:26

and they define meaningful work really similarly.

32:29

And so sometimes I work with a

32:31

leader, might be a Gen Xer,

32:33

for example, and they might say something

32:35

like, Oh, this generation, like, they

32:37

don't want to work, they don't want

32:39

to work hard, they just want

32:41

to do like the fluffy stuff or

32:43

whatever. And I

32:46

push back because I have three Gen

32:48

Z years. None of them are in the

32:50

workforce yet, but they've all had jobs

32:52

like high school, kind of, clerky kind of

32:55

jobs, and they want to work hard.

32:57

They want to show up on time.

32:59

They want, but they also want... My son

33:01

was a grocery store cashier, and he

33:03

really loved it when his manager, after

33:05

a few weeks, kind of noticed that he

33:07

was doing a good job and then

33:09

said, hey, I want to... I want to

33:11

teach you how to be a produce

33:14

clerk. And then he came home and he

33:16

was like, Hey, mom, like he

33:18

noticed that I was working really hard.

33:20

And now I get to do this

33:22

other thing too. When he was learning

33:24

something new, when it's still grocery store

33:26

clerk and cashier, but still somebody noticed

33:28

him. He was seen. Somebody noticed he

33:30

was trying hard and working hard and

33:32

valued that. And this new generation doesn't

33:35

want to. do what we might have

33:37

done. I mentioned working in advertising. It

33:39

was super meaningful. I worked 24 seven

33:41

on deadlines, client services. I was always

33:43

at work and I had a ton

33:45

of friends and I loved it. But

33:47

I don't think people are willing to

33:49

do that as much anymore. And I'm

33:51

not sure if that's a terrible thing

33:53

to want a little bit more balance.

33:56

Okay. So that's interesting. There's a

33:58

gap between maybe definitions of

34:00

meaning. and then maybe

34:02

commitment, and then maybe effort too,

34:04

that that might be part of what

34:07

it is, that the weight on

34:09

those scales, that meaning also means you're

34:11

committed to it, you're giving your

34:13

all, that giving your all might have

34:15

a different definition from, let's say,

34:17

our generation, I think I'm older,

34:19

much older than you, to our kids' generation.

34:21

Yeah, I think so. There's this big push

34:23

for lack of a better term, but work -life

34:25

balance, I think. people want

34:27

to have a life outside of

34:30

work and I think a big part

34:32

of that is because Gen Z

34:34

is working largely remotely and they feel

34:36

lonely, they don't feel like they

34:38

have office friends like I used to,

34:40

some of my best friends were

34:42

people I worked with 24 -7 together. Nothing

34:45

makes friendships like being in

34:47

a foxhole. Exactly, exactly. But

34:50

do you think that the world,

34:52

because it doesn't then just become

34:54

a generational era, would

34:56

be okay with the result of

34:59

that. Because the ultimate result of that

35:01

will be less economy. I mean,

35:03

it just has to be because of

35:05

the nature of things. It might

35:07

mean that people are even buying or

35:09

consuming things less because the wheel,

35:11

that machine, is not as predominant or

35:13

as important as other aspects of

35:15

our life. And this is also

35:17

the thing where people think, well, I'm

35:20

just doing what I do. I'm like,

35:22

yeah, but at a macro level, that

35:24

creates a different environment for all of

35:26

us where Those results might be very

35:28

uncomfortable. Maybe we decide okay, but with

35:30

that comes an actual 20 to 25

35:32

% reduction workforce We just don't need

35:34

that many people doing this many things

35:36

in a world where we're not consuming

35:38

as much or doing as much It's

35:40

a thought I mean maybe so much

35:42

of the above and beyond crazy extra

35:44

hours was performative productivity People that were

35:47

staying there because like you got to

35:49

wait until the boss leaves or whatever And

35:51

I've been hopeful to see more companies

35:53

moving to like a result oriented work

35:55

environment where have a deliverables, you have

35:58

your goals, you have the things you

36:00

need to do and you get them

36:02

done. And of course, there are times

36:04

where it's all hands on deck and

36:06

everybody's going to do whatever it takes

36:08

to meet the client deadline. But on

36:10

day to day, I think that we

36:12

are a lot more productive if we

36:15

can. Go outside and enjoy nature and

36:17

go for a walk if we can

36:19

leave early and go connect with friends

36:21

if we can take care of the

36:23

other parts of our lives that really

36:25

contribute to. Our well -being and our

36:27

happiness we're gonna be much more productive

36:29

at work and so i don't think

36:31

it's. Yeah, I'm not advocating

36:33

for like real strong delineation and

36:36

end at five. But I do

36:38

believe that a result -oriented work environment

36:40

versus a performative productivity work environment

36:42

is better for everyone. It's interesting

36:44

too, because we can go back

36:46

to the idea of social media

36:48

and what it would do. But

36:50

with all this and five

36:52

years post -COVID and people

36:54

making very dramatic different choices, the

36:57

loneliness epidemic, you mentioned Jonathan Hyde

36:59

is worse than ever. So

37:01

then again, we are giving people the time

37:04

to do this and they're not capitalizing

37:06

on this. So, yeah, these are

37:08

the things that made me crazy. Watching

37:10

the world become more divided after COVID

37:12

where we all had to come together

37:14

and all of us shut down was

37:16

really disheartening to me. And this is

37:18

a component of it where, okay,

37:20

now you are working from home. Now you are

37:22

doing Zoom meetings. Now you are in quote unquote control

37:24

of your time and schedule. More

37:26

and many of these businesses are, you know, we

37:28

could call it results oriented. It could even be

37:30

task oriented because you're just doing your things. I

37:33

have my meetings. I'd rather do. And

37:35

yet no, we're not happy. Like

37:37

this is where I always spin.

37:39

It's we do this and the

37:41

result of what we think isn't

37:43

the result. It's actually a negative.

37:45

Again, back to loneliness, back to

37:48

depression. Yeah. I mean,

37:50

you know, it's a economy of attention

37:52

and where are we putting our focus

37:54

and attention? And unfortunately, it's

37:56

on those little screens that we

37:58

carry around with us everywhere and I

38:00

think... But those screens aren't telling

38:03

us to be lazy. Like I'm a

38:05

fan of these screens and I

38:07

can tell you that intellectually it's expanded

38:09

my thinking and whether I like

38:11

it or not it's exposed me to

38:13

voices, some dissenting, some I think

38:15

are very inspirational. I think about the

38:17

fact that I have not personally

38:20

been great on my own personal health,

38:22

physical health and yet my feet is

38:24

constantly filled with people talking about keto

38:27

and intermittent fasting and workouts and new

38:29

ways to do things that I definitely

38:31

wasn't exposed to when I was younger.

38:33

It was then go to the Y

38:35

and, you know, push some heavy weights. So

38:38

it's interesting that, yes, I would never

38:40

disagree with the fact that we're on our

38:42

screens a lot, but it seems like

38:44

the content is more towards how to have

38:46

a happy, better life versus the content

38:48

isn't like me showing you how to scroll

38:50

more. Right no, of course

38:52

and yeah, I agree my I enjoy

38:54

my little Yeah, and I tend to

38:56

see all the things that I stop

38:58

and pay attention to which is low

39:00

psychology research and work Oh these work

39:03

interesting voices. Yeah, but I I'll ask

39:05

you a question How much let's say

39:07

you spend 20 minutes kind of scrolling

39:09

mindlessly or whatever and you see all

39:11

this content and it's like these like

39:13

little 30 -second snippets and all of that.

39:15

And then you stop and you go

39:17

off your day. How much of it

39:19

do you actually absorb and make changes

39:21

and follow up on? Yeah, I mean,

39:24

I think that I become the anomaly

39:26

in the sense of I was trained

39:28

and worked primarily as a journalist. So

39:30

I'm looking at it from a different

39:32

perspective also. I'm skipping

39:34

if it's not adding. I

39:36

don't have any alerts or

39:38

notifications set on anything. I'm

39:40

an advocate for Having yourself

39:42

control your media and technology not

39:45

the other way around so

39:47

i'm probably the wrong person to

39:49

ask but in consult with the

39:51

younger people there's a lot of

39:53

conversations around. There's 20 more

39:55

minutes of this add anything to

39:57

your life that if you did it

39:59

for one hour not six would

40:01

your life is your life six times

40:03

better because you are doing like

40:06

there's no doubt that. because conversations exist.

40:08

But I would argue that, again,

40:10

it totally depends on your feed. I

40:12

would argue that my feed has made

40:14

me significantly better. But again, I'm looking

40:16

at it from a very different perspective.

40:19

Yeah, and I again, you know, it's it

40:21

feeds you what you see as you were

40:23

saying, right? So you're seeing you could see

40:25

someone be completely wrong about something based on

40:27

psychology or conversation that that enrages you and

40:30

makes you want to see it more. But

40:32

I would argue that at the same time

40:34

it's given you a nugget of information that

40:36

you might use in a book in a

40:38

podcast and conversation with peers, right? So Yeah,

40:40

I agree. I do the same. I don't

40:42

have any notifications on. I tend to put

40:45

my phone on to not disturb most of

40:47

the day while I'm working. I have screen

40:49

time limits for myself on social media. But

40:52

I don't know

40:54

for the norm. Exactly,

40:57

exactly. It's a great tool. It's there.

40:59

You get information so fast. You

41:01

can connect with people. I agree,

41:03

but I think We need to use

41:05

it as a tool. It sounds like you

41:07

also follow people with complete opposite views,

41:09

which I do as well. But I think

41:11

what's happening more and more is that

41:13

people are following people with their same perspectives

41:15

and we create this like echo chamber

41:18

and we're all kind of. tunnel visioning and

41:20

all of that. And you're right, because

41:22

like those work influencers, when they're making fun

41:24

of everything and you realize that what

41:26

they're making fun of is the thing you

41:28

live every single day. From the way

41:30

meetings are run, like you're laughing because we've

41:32

both seen these individuals, that it's easy

41:34

for someone like you and I to see

41:36

that and laugh at it. It's much

41:38

harder, I think, to see it and laugh

41:40

at it, but realize you're actually in

41:42

that. That's what employs you. That's pretty scary.

41:44

It is, but I will say one

41:46

of the things that this research did for

41:48

me personally is it created so much

41:51

hope. So I lived

41:53

in this alternate world. I mean,

41:55

you read about work and most

41:57

of what you read is like,

41:59

drudgery and like all this negative

42:01

stuff about how it's worse and

42:03

getting worse and it's terrible and

42:05

terrible bosses. Nobody cares. Everybody's lonely.

42:07

All those things. And

42:09

then I even inhabited this

42:11

world of possibility. for six

42:14

months where we were interviewing

42:16

leaders that work in these exemplar

42:18

workplaces that are shining lights

42:20

of meaning where they have this

42:22

culture that is really strong

42:24

and built on this belief that

42:26

when people come here, it's

42:28

not just a transaction. This is

42:30

way more like we care

42:32

about each individual's growth. We want

42:34

them to feel connected. We

42:36

hire for this and we build

42:38

this community really intentionally. It

42:41

was completely different industries

42:43

and sizes. Our smallest organization

42:45

had 150 employees and

42:47

our largest one had 750

42:49

,000 employees. It was a

42:52

broad range. Yet,

42:54

they all share this common

42:56

belief that work can be

42:58

more than a paycheck. That

43:00

work can be where we find

43:02

community, where we make positive contributions, where

43:04

we learn and grow and reach

43:06

our full potential. I

43:09

was really taken aback about, like, once we left

43:11

that world to go back to writing the research

43:13

in real life, I was like, ooh, it's

43:16

amazing. There's these two parallel universes

43:18

of work. And my

43:20

guess is most people want to be all

43:22

on the good one, all on the meaningful one.

43:25

Yeah, and I think that

43:27

there's also nothing wrong with

43:29

creating another vision. Right. You

43:31

know, one that isn't maybe standard, probably

43:34

should be. But we have to keep

43:36

looking at it and staring at it

43:38

and figuring out how to directionally get

43:40

there. Yeah, for sure. There's value

43:42

in that. AI has

43:44

been an interesting conversation piece. I

43:46

know you added some components

43:48

of that into the book, which

43:50

I appreciated. I was thinking

43:52

a lot about, and I think

43:54

about this a lot, the fact that

43:56

I think the challenge of AI isn't whether

43:59

or not we can handle a

44:01

disruptive technology because I could even make

44:03

the argument that if we achieve, what

44:05

it seems like this industry wants

44:07

to achieve some type of super intelligence

44:09

it's gonna be a very curious time

44:11

to see. Human beings being second

44:13

on the food chain and what that

44:15

means there's like a whole other

44:17

interesting dynamic there but what i was

44:19

thinking more about is. The fact

44:21

that i use this stuff all the

44:23

time it's what i speak about. I

44:26

think the challenge is i is mostly

44:28

validating how replaceable a lot of us

44:30

are. And it's not an insult to

44:32

us. I don't mean it that way.

44:34

What I mean is that we would

44:36

think that this knowledge work we do

44:38

and how we collaborate and creatively come

44:40

up with ideas and artistic and we're

44:42

so creative and it's how we work

44:44

with it. Yes, but

44:46

I could also tell you as someone who's

44:48

really in it that it is hyper

44:50

creative technology that more often than not, I'm

44:52

giving it some very high level strategic

44:54

thinking and it's coming back and yes, adding

44:56

to my thinking, but in some instances

44:58

I'm looking at it sideways thinking. It

45:01

came out at a perspective I had

45:03

no clue about in a very positive

45:05

way. Have you thought about

45:07

that side of it, that what happens if it

45:09

actually validates that a lot of the work

45:11

we do is another topic Adam Grant talked about

45:13

in your book and I talk a lot

45:15

about bullshit job. a

45:18

calculator, replace certain things,

45:20

word check and Grammarly replace other

45:22

things. This might be the thing

45:24

that replaces the knowledge work. So,

45:26

I will caveat this by saying

45:28

I am not a futurist or

45:30

superverse in the future of work

45:32

as it relates to AI, although

45:34

I am a user as well. And

45:36

so, that's why we kind of went to

45:38

the experts. We were like, all right,

45:41

we want to write a chapter on the

45:43

future of meaningful work. Everything's changing so

45:45

fast. And so, we reached out to all

45:47

those experts who mentioned Adam Grant, Arthur

45:49

Brooks, Anne Epton, and others to understand, like,

45:51

where is their thinking on this? And

45:53

then we, so Marty Seligman, who's the

45:56

founder of Positive Psychology, he's still at

45:58

Penn, and we see him at least

46:00

once a year at a gathering of

46:02

graduates of the program of the Masters

46:04

of Applied Positive Psychology. And

46:06

for the past couple of years, what

46:08

he's been truly, truly excited about

46:10

is this AI development. So

46:12

he holds a very hopeful view

46:15

of AI, and I

46:17

really trust him. And so I'm like, okay,

46:19

I'm going to I'm going to be hopeful

46:21

too. And I think that

46:23

in the best case scenario, AI

46:26

can help us, can replace those bullshit

46:28

jobs and the aspects of work that

46:30

take too long, that we're not great

46:32

at, that we don't love. And maybe

46:34

we do have more time to focus

46:36

on the meaningful tasks, on the building

46:38

of relationships, on the creativity things, on

46:40

the things that bring us, that we

46:43

can add the most value in and

46:45

that also bring us the most fulfillment.

46:48

And like you said, AI is

46:50

getting really good at creativity and

46:52

other things. I mean, as a

46:54

professor, this is something that

46:56

I am actively working on is

46:58

like, how do I incorporate AI in

47:00

the classroom on the assignments so

47:02

that I make it a requirement, but

47:04

I also don't want AI to

47:06

do all the work and like, how

47:08

do you bridge that gap? How

47:10

do you cross that line? And so

47:12

it's, there's no playbook

47:14

yet. It's pretty new and it's always

47:16

evolving. So the other thing that

47:19

we're seeing right now in the workplace,

47:21

again, somewhat new administration

47:23

is DEI mandates being

47:25

shifted and changed, others

47:27

amplifying them. It's definitely

47:29

being applied in the government. But I

47:31

think the general sentiment that you're hearing

47:33

is something around the idea that it

47:35

shouldn't be skin or background based. We

47:37

want it to be merit based. This

47:39

idea of a meritocracy, which I think

47:42

both you and I would both agree.

47:44

Meritocracies are lovely and yet they don't

47:46

really exist anywhere. What do

47:48

you think of in terms of

47:50

meaningful work? And the fact

47:52

that I do think ultimately it should be

47:54

somewhat of a meritocracy, meaning you want to

47:56

be in a place where the right people

47:58

are on the right seat on the right

48:00

bus to quote Jim Collins. And with that,

48:02

of course, that can only work if you

48:04

have a diverse group of people clearly, whether

48:07

it's generationally, whether it's racially, whether it's geographically,

48:09

whatever it might be. Have you

48:11

thought about how you reconcile what

48:13

seems to be a very divisive component

48:15

of work today? Yeah, so I

48:17

have a lot of friends and leaders

48:19

I work with that are in

48:22

the DEI space and none of them,

48:24

none of the ones I know

48:26

or follow, have ever advocated for diversity

48:28

instead of democracy. So

48:30

it's not an either or thing. It's

48:33

in addition to, yes, we

48:35

want the most qualified people and

48:37

we also want diversity of

48:39

ideas, of experiences, of backgrounds because

48:42

it's where we get the richness. If

48:44

we have a bunch of people that

48:46

have grown up in the same exact

48:48

way, they've had the same lived experience,

48:50

we're not going to get the most

48:53

creative thinking. We bring our experiences into

48:55

our work with us and our ideas

48:57

and thoughts are, you know, books I

48:59

read and my feed has different things

49:01

in yours and it'll spark a different

49:03

idea. And together we're going to be

49:05

like, oh, it just enriches the conversation.

49:08

And so I think it's a sad

49:10

turn to have this divisive,

49:12

like, oh, it's either you hire somebody

49:14

because they deserve it, or you hire

49:16

somebody because of their background or skin

49:18

color or whatever. And I don't think

49:20

it has ever been about that. And

49:22

do you know why, like, being Canadian

49:25

too, I'm very curious about it. Like,

49:27

why would a business say we're backing

49:29

out of it? I don't even understand

49:31

where that comes from. Is that just

49:33

politics and language? Or is it that

49:35

they've seen results by doing it that

49:37

they don't like, I don't understand it?

49:39

Yeah, I'm not sure. I

49:41

think it might be politics and

49:44

language, but I'm not 100 %

49:46

sure. So last thing I want

49:48

to talk about is a person. And it

49:50

could be someone who's obviously not you

49:52

and I because we're in different types of

49:54

work that we probably find a lot

49:56

of meaning in. And I think in conversations

49:58

with people who are looking for that,

50:00

what I'm actually hearing too is they have

50:02

a lot of internal apathy for themselves

50:04

and their own work and the opportunity. What

50:06

do you recommend for people who are

50:08

somewhat apathetic about everything? Like, you know, it's

50:10

probably four quarters for a dollar if

50:12

I try to go there. How do I

50:14

know it's going to be that much

50:16

better? That type of sentiment, you

50:18

hear from a lot of people who are

50:20

intelligent, smart, capable. Yeah, I'm not

50:22

trying to convince anyone, you know, that like,

50:24

go do, like, go find a meaningful work.

50:26

It's good for you. I'm not shitting on

50:28

anyone if they're apathetic and they don't care

50:30

about it. Great. As long as it makes

50:32

you happy and you're good with that. Great.

50:35

Most times when we feel apathy,

50:38

we want to... Most of us don't

50:40

want to be in that state

50:42

of apathy or what Adam Green calls

50:44

meh. And so we want to

50:47

kind of tip the scales a little

50:49

bit more towards aliveness and zestiness

50:51

and flourishing. And so if that's the

50:53

case, if you're feeling apathetic and

50:55

meh and you want to start tipping

50:57

I would say focus on those

50:59

three C's community contribution and challenge whether

51:01

it's through work or if you

51:03

find that at work right now you

51:05

can't. Find those C's even in

51:07

your personal life connect with people connect

51:10

with somebody today do things for

51:12

others Understand how you can make an

51:14

impact. Maybe it's volunteering. Maybe it's

51:16

helping a neighbor and also challenge What

51:18

are you learning? If you are

51:20

stuck at work if you're bored if

51:22

you're not learning at work, can

51:24

you learn on your own read a

51:26

book? Listen

51:29

to podcasts meet people for sure. Yeah

51:31

for sure I mean, the one thing

51:33

is, I have this little business we

51:35

sort of call Thinkers One, and part

51:37

of the idea behind it wasn't just

51:39

to make this thought leadership accessible to

51:41

everyday meetings. It was this idea that

51:44

exactly this, which is if you said

51:46

to somebody, like, oh, learn on your

51:48

own, I think some people are just

51:50

so tired and they're so busy, that

51:53

adding even an hour to their week is

51:55

like, oof, don't want to do that. And so

51:57

that was the core idea, is like, how

51:59

can we integrate this into their everyday meetings or

52:01

something like that? And i do

52:03

think that leaders don't spend a lot of

52:05

time doing that they think like our meeting

52:07

is an hour and i'm always thinking can

52:09

you make it forty five and add fifteen

52:11

minutes where they can learn exactly oh my

52:13

god it's interesting how they don't think like

52:15

that this is the day and i'm like

52:17

okay but if they're asking for professional development

52:19

and it's part of your mandate and even

52:22

you have hr dollars against it why is

52:24

it only. as a result of adding to

52:26

someone else's day. Why can't it be integrated?

52:28

I never got that. I know, especially when

52:30

the data shows that most meetings could have

52:32

been an email, right? But I

52:34

agree with you. And there's research

52:36

that shows that a huge cause

52:38

of burnout is not because we

52:40

are just working really hard and

52:43

stressed, but it's because we're bored.

52:45

It's called bore out. It's because

52:47

we're working hard without seeing our

52:49

own growth and development. When

52:51

we ask people, I think of a time

52:53

at work that was really meaningful. A

52:56

lot of what we hear is, you

52:58

know what? I was given a challenging

53:00

assignment, a stretch assignment. I didn't even

53:02

think I could do it. I wasn't

53:04

ready, but my leader believed in me

53:06

and they supported me and I learned

53:08

and, you know, it wasn't pretty. I

53:10

failed and I stumbled, but I learned

53:12

and just that trust in me made

53:14

me want to prove them right. And

53:17

so like we want to learn, we want to

53:19

grow. I was a big student of the martial

53:21

arts, and I think everybody should do it in

53:23

one way, shape, or form. I'm a big advocate

53:25

for it because of the belt system. And

53:28

because they're going to be excessively tough

53:30

on you. I think that a lot

53:32

of things that happen in these dojos

53:34

and gyms happen to where people would

53:36

sue and say that they're being abused.

53:39

But if you self -impose that and say,

53:41

you know what, let them push me. I

53:45

don't think people realize what they're capable

53:47

of. And I think some of the crazy

53:49

stuff about Steve Jobs and some of

53:51

the best parts are the crazy, the people

53:53

who said he was crazy. We're not

53:55

necessarily the ones who got ahead, but the

53:57

ones who actually didn't see this crazy

53:59

and thought, you know what, it was an

54:01

impossible task and we did it. Right. So

54:03

it's always that where I think about that

54:06

story a lot in work, because people literally

54:08

were calling him abusive. He would yell, he

54:10

would scream, he would do all these stuff.

54:12

Steve Jobs distortion, it was a known thing.

54:14

And yet. They did do the incredible. He

54:16

pushed people to do things of which they

54:18

felt they couldn't do. Right. And

54:20

then I think about how do you

54:23

reconcile that? You as the individual have

54:25

to be okay a little bit with

54:27

the uncomfort sometimes. Yeah. I think you

54:29

can also push people and give them

54:31

stretch assignments and do the impossible without

54:33

being abusive. Right. They're not. Yeah.

54:36

So I'm not. But again, what I

54:38

was trying to say is that often

54:40

people's definition of abusive. Yeah. can

54:42

sometimes be misconstructed.

54:45

There's a lot of gray areas here.

54:47

Yeah, there is. But I know that

54:49

when I did my best, it was

54:51

because I was probably somewhat belligerent of

54:53

the person telling me this and didn't

54:55

want to, but them forcing it or

54:57

pushing it did make me better. And

54:59

was it worth that feeling maybe of,

55:01

discomfort, I'll use that word. Yeah, discomfort

55:03

or we fear the unknown, like if

55:05

we don't know how we're going to

55:07

do it and we want to do

55:09

a good job. And I think

55:12

the other side of what we call

55:14

the zone of possibility, it's just yeah,

55:16

having these high expectations, pushing people to

55:18

do hard things, to do impossible things,

55:20

but also it has to have the

55:22

high support. Also, you have to say,

55:24

all right, what resources do you need?

55:27

Do you need mentorship? Here's a class

55:29

you can take. So the resource is

55:31

the high support or what balance out

55:33

the sense of, oh my gosh, I

55:35

don't know if I can do it,

55:37

this uncertainty, this kind of feeling of

55:39

maybe imposter that people feel. So

55:41

the zone of possibility is this perfect

55:43

blend of like very high expectations, but also

55:46

very high support. That's great. Tell me

55:48

the one thing that made you think differently. That

55:50

is a tough question for me.

55:52

I think differently a lot. I

55:55

know I to think about think

55:57

about an instance where you really

55:59

had a held belief and you

56:01

were exposed to something and it

56:03

actually really did Shift that yeah,

56:05

I think in graduate school that

56:08

happened to me all the time.

56:10

That's good place. Yeah Exactly, I

56:12

think just learning about the science

56:14

of all being and how some

56:16

things that Either or like grandmother's

56:18

wisdom that you're like, well, yeah,

56:21

you got to sleep. Get your

56:23

sleep and your exercise or whatever.

56:25

But there's like data for that.

56:27

But one thing that really, and

56:30

I think this might be something that everybody

56:32

knows, but for some reason for me, it

56:34

really made me think differently, is

56:36

the benefits of exercise for

56:38

the brain. So John Brady,

56:40

the author of Spark, he

56:43

was one of our invited

56:45

professors and just Learning

56:47

how exercise can be miracle grow

56:49

for the brain like changed everything for

56:51

me because I exercise because I

56:54

want to be healthy for my kids

56:56

and I want to have stamina

56:58

and energy and learning about how we

57:00

can just transform your brain and

57:02

make you learn better and be more

57:04

productive really took my exercise commitment

57:06

to the next level. I thought

57:08

you meant I thought what you were saying is that.

57:11

exercising your brain, meaning spending time reading

57:13

books and taking notes. I thought you

57:15

meant that, yeah. So it's interesting that

57:17

the physical exercise stimulated that. That's great.

57:19

Physical, yeah. And I tend to be

57:21

somebody who, when I choose the

57:23

hard things to do, I will choose

57:25

hard. brain things like, I'll read the

57:28

book, I will do the whatever, like

57:30

take the class. Like I always

57:32

am drawn to like brain challenging things,

57:34

but I don't love to do physical

57:36

challenging things that hurt or that are

57:38

going to be hard. But I think

57:40

that helped me embrace that a little

57:42

bit more. That's great. So

57:44

the new book is called Meaningful Work. You

57:46

also have other books like The Secret

57:49

of Peek Productivity. Let people know where they

57:51

can find out more information about the

57:53

book if you do any other content creation,

57:55

how they can best follow you. Great.

57:57

Well, the best way to find me is

57:59

on LinkedIn and Instagram, Tamara And

58:02

then the book is on the website

58:04

called MakeworkMeaningful .com. That's great. Well, thanks

58:06

so much for your time. Thank you

58:08

so much.