0:00

I'm starting to get

0:02

concerned that I've entered

0:04

a, I don't know if you

0:06

would call it, what's it called?

0:08

The word starts with RE and

0:10

it means you go back to

0:12

something, a remission, you go back

0:15

to it. You recall, recession,

0:17

remission. Any of those work?

0:19

We'll take any of those for

0:22

the moment. Anyways, you know, you

0:24

start off in life. regression. Regression.

0:26

Yes, you start off in life

0:28

naked covered in slime and you

0:30

know internal stuff and and then

0:32

for many years I want to

0:35

say maybe even 10 to 15

0:37

just when you're ready to go

0:39

to sleep you just go to sleep

0:41

in whatever you're wearing like you

0:43

don't really care. Maybe maybe there's

0:46

some people who are like straight

0:48

A students and you know got letter

0:50

jackets and stuff and they would

0:52

like put on their like Dagwood

0:55

pajamas or whatever. But eventually

0:57

you're like, I'm going to like wear

0:59

some, you know, night clothes, whatever that

1:02

may be. Maybe that's even. You just

1:04

strip down to your underwear and

1:06

a shirt. Maybe, you know, you sleep

1:08

nude, whatever it is. But what I have

1:11

started to notice and reflect on is

1:13

like the, our five year old, she

1:15

will not sleep alone. Again, there's a

1:18

small time when she did. So we

1:20

put her to bed and often will

1:22

fall asleep, putting her to sleep, putting

1:24

her to sleep. And what this means

1:26

is that we end up sleeping in

1:28

our clothes. Well, I can't speak for

1:30

Kim. I end up sleeping in my

1:32

clothes a lot and just like full

1:34

on with all my shit in my pockets

1:37

because I'm tired and I go to sleep.

1:39

But I feel like, is this something I

1:41

should be concerned about or is

1:43

sleeping in my clothes as a,

1:45

let me check the date, 48,

1:47

47 year old person? Is this

1:49

like fine or does this mean

1:51

I need to up my medication

1:53

medication dosage? for my mental problems.

1:56

What's the assessment? I

1:58

see nothing wrong with it as a

2:00

a parent of a young child,

2:02

if that's most convenient for you.

2:04

Obviously, there's many work around. You

2:06

could probably just change clothes before

2:08

you put the kid to bed. But, you know,

2:10

if that's what you want to do, I think

2:12

any parents of young children, like,

2:14

it's more important that you get sleep,

2:17

not exactly what you're wearing to sleep.

2:19

So any goal of just achieving a

2:21

deep sleep, whether it be in your clothes,

2:23

or when you have a small children, that's

2:26

success in my book. Yeah, okay. Now there's

2:28

that this is good because there's another

2:30

benefit is you don't have to get

2:32

dressed in the morning You're just ready

2:34

to go I think for a work

2:36

from home job. That's definitely true I

2:38

think for like I don't know going

2:40

out like maybe maybe maybe maybe just

2:43

depends on like you know how wrinkled

2:45

you got yourself. You know Yeah, yeah, okay.

2:47

Okay. Now the second domestic question I want

2:49

to go over just briefly so My daughter

2:51

Alejandra her bike broke and now we got

2:54

her a new bike. We've got this old

2:56

bike What would you do with an old

2:58

bike? Now I know we've got three different

3:00

countries, but like what's the common

3:02

practice? Do you just sort of

3:05

like, well I'll tell you here in

3:07

the Netherlands, I think what you do with

3:09

an old bike is you go leave

3:11

it unlocked somewhere. Nature takes its

3:13

course. That's right. Yeah, the cycle

3:15

continues. I have two easy answers

3:17

here. Facebook market if you think

3:19

you can sell it and you're

3:21

willing to do it if it's

3:23

still worth something. Kids bike are

3:25

a fantastic. resellable thing because

3:28

they usually only because they usually

3:30

grow fast so the bikes don't

3:32

necessarily get a ton of use.

3:34

But it's probably not completely worn

3:36

out and if it's either too much hassle to

3:38

sell or it's not worth something or maybe has

3:41

some issue at least here we have the the

3:43

buy nothing Facebook groups which are fantastic where you

3:45

just basically say put a picture out there you

3:47

say and someone will say like you know. I

3:49

want it, they'll come pick it up. You can

3:52

just leave it on, at least here in the

3:54

US, we leave it on our porch. I don't

3:56

know if you have a stump or something along

3:58

those lines. Maybe it's just. the version of

4:00

what you just said, maybe everyone in

4:02

Amsterdam is always working, everything, one Amsterdam,

4:04

just one big Facebook group where people

4:07

are just taking things off of porches

4:09

at all times, but here you do,

4:11

and that way at least, usually you

4:13

can find someone in your local area

4:15

that needs it, which is a nice

4:17

way to feel like, even if you're

4:19

giving up some money, it just feels

4:21

like, well, at least another child in the

4:23

general area will like the bike and get

4:25

some use of it. So you feel like

4:28

you're. If you were paying it forward, so

4:30

those would be my two. How about there

4:32

how about there in Australia? Surely

4:34

you don't just like throw it

4:36

on the coral reef or something

4:38

like that. Well Or do you

4:40

just sometimes do you call up

4:42

do you call a mortum Joe

4:44

when he comes and picks it

4:47

up from you? Like what happens?

4:49

No, we've got kind of kind

4:51

of the Australian version of like

4:53

a useless thing here called gum tree

4:55

and it's like Craigslist you can have

4:57

your ads and you say whoa you

5:00

know I've got this thing it's for

5:02

sale you have five dollars or whatever

5:04

or you can just put stuff up

5:07

for free and people come out

5:09

of work for it so I'm sure

5:11

there's there's definitely Facebook too

5:13

yeah I don't spend a lot of

5:16

time on those but yeah I've given

5:18

away fair stuff and this last

5:20

weekend like I got a new

5:22

monitor and not for me for one

5:24

of my kids because their brand was

5:26

dying and I was looking for

5:29

electronics recycling and they've got people

5:31

who will come and like take

5:33

all your electronics no matter what

5:35

they are working or not and so

5:38

I was just yeah so there it's it's

5:40

like and it's a non-profit it's

5:42

like a not-for-profit yeah good I don't

5:44

know they're trying to make the world

5:47

a better place by recycling electronics

5:49

that are still usable so I'm

5:51

like monitor doesn't work but here's

5:54

some candles that work I think

5:56

I think maybe maybe we've come

5:58

up cron yet another software to

6:01

find talk sub industry. And I think

6:03

globally we need to have a multi-sided

6:05

platform, maybe some aggregation theory. I don't

6:08

know which direction it's going. But I

6:10

want something that's called something like, take

6:12

my free shit.com. And it's basically, you're

6:15

gonna go in there and give it

6:17

geo location permissions. And it'll list all

6:19

of the ways that you can have

6:21

people come and take your free shit.

6:24

Like whether it's like old batteries, like

6:26

maybe some leftover chicken that you might

6:28

have, a run down bicycle, just whatever

6:31

it is. And you just basically take

6:33

a picture and upload it to it,

6:35

and then it just disappears from your

6:38

property. It's just gone. All right, Kote

6:40

has a real-time feedback here right from

6:42

the chat Michael has suggested free cycle.org

6:45

Which I think pretty much does what

6:47

you say, right? It's basically a non-profit.

6:49

It's a website where you looks like

6:52

you Put pictures of stuff up and

6:54

it's like you just give it away.

6:56

So I think one thing you said

6:59

in there. I don't know I don't

7:01

know how everything you said, but it

7:03

had a lot. So free so I

7:06

would say Facebook marketplace the buy nothing

7:08

Gomtree. Gomtree. Free cycle. You know, it's

7:10

really just comes down to find the

7:13

free website, the website in your area

7:15

that is popular for giving away free

7:17

stuff. I think that is because there

7:20

is a sort of, what you call

7:22

it, like mental kind of value to

7:24

just getting rid of stuff out of

7:26

your house. I think there's a huge

7:29

value and it's like, it becomes very

7:31

simple. If it's just sort of like

7:33

you post it, someone picks it up.

7:36

So. Any of these sites are probably

7:38

good, but finding one close by so

7:40

I think maybe coate maybe that's your

7:43

assignment this week And my guess is

7:45

you just have to ask your wife.

7:47

She'll be like. Oh, yeah. I use

7:50

such and such she'll probably yeah, yeah

7:52

Well, I think you know definitely this

7:54

bike is maybe on its third fourth

7:57

even fifth owner It's a little it's

7:59

it's it's It's served, it's had a

8:01

good life, so I'm thinking. And those

8:04

kids ride it hard. Yeah, that's right.

8:06

So I'm thinking definitely find some free

8:08

site or I might go to, you

8:11

know, the Netherlands number one bike market,

8:13

corner bike stand with no luck. I'll

8:15

see, I'll see if it can reenter

8:18

the system there. But I promise I

8:20

won't throw it in the canal like

8:22

so many other people seem to. Or

8:25

maybe that happens accidentally. Well, you know,

8:27

speaking of global integrations. making things seamless.

8:29

I was I was looking at our

8:32

show notes and it was I was

8:34

it was thrilled to see that Brandon

8:36

has done some extensive research on model

8:38

context protocol something I've been spending about

8:41

a month now fucking around with so

8:43

to speak to use the nomenclature but

8:45

here's here's what I am here's how

8:48

I want to go into this is

8:50

now now that you now that you

8:52

read up on this a lot Brandon.

8:55

Tell us what tell us what this

8:57

MCP stuff is. I want to I

8:59

want to hear the Brandon Well, I

9:02

think yeah, I guess it would start

9:04

with it's an anthropic standard and I

9:06

think the the name is bad I

9:09

feel like the name doesn't I don't

9:11

know if you felt like I just

9:13

felt like it's sort of just confused

9:16

me I was like what does this

9:18

mean? But I would just say Very

9:20

simply is it allows you to take

9:23

some type of web service that you

9:25

have today you wrap it in an

9:27

API that produces some Jason is very

9:30

consumable by an LLLM. And what's cool

9:32

about it, and I guess this is

9:34

the part that I didn't get to

9:37

actually play in with it, it's sort

9:39

of like, it takes your LLLM from

9:41

maybe just being kind of like unable

9:44

to talk to the outside world, at

9:46

least talk to the applications, and gives

9:48

it the ability to like do stuff,

9:50

right? Like actually do things with things

9:53

that have a MCP agent. Now I

9:55

will say this, agent, dock or container

9:57

on your server that runs. if you

10:00

will, the integration. But you can

10:02

see directionally what I think is what I

10:04

like about it is it's sort of if you will

10:06

kind of takes takes away the idea

10:08

of just like because mostly I've been

10:10

using a lot of elements like everyone

10:13

for editing documents and like kind of

10:15

like learning about things getting kind of

10:17

like short write-ups which is very useful

10:19

but this sort of like the next layer

10:21

is like oh instead of actually if you will

10:24

typing in there like what is the right the

10:26

get command to if you will, commit this work and

10:28

tell me how to do it, right? Instead of doing

10:30

that, you can just kind of tell it to be

10:32

like, oh, we'll just do this, right? Just put this

10:34

in get for me. Yeah, submit, like do all the

10:36

things that I need to do to have this committed to

10:38

get help. And it's like, oh, that's what I

10:40

want. Like, I don't want to have to think

10:42

about, like the whole idea of translating all that.

10:44

So that was the part where I really kind

10:46

of like really kind of got it, like really

10:48

kind of got it. I really kind of got it.

10:51

I really kind of got it. I really kind of got

10:53

it. to anything that has like the protocol,

10:55

then you kind of go to the next

10:57

level, it's like, oh, well, every website should

10:59

have this. Like times when I don't want

11:02

to have to like learn your website,

11:04

I just want to like interact you

11:06

from the LLM. So that was the

11:08

part that like, I did not quite

11:10

understand it was capable until actually using

11:12

it. So I don't know, what was your

11:14

experience? Yeah, I think that's, I haven't

11:17

thought of the, the, the adding a

11:19

natural language interface to like an API

11:21

angle. But that makes a lot of

11:23

sense. Yeah, it is like, yeah, the

11:25

name is weird. Model, context,

11:28

protocol. And I think it's

11:30

mostly, I don't really even

11:32

know what, I guess the

11:34

model is the AI part. And

11:36

the context, there's one way

11:39

of thinking about it that

11:41

it brings in context from

11:43

the rest of the world

11:45

to the model. And the

11:48

protocol part makes sense.

11:50

After, you know, I think I mentioned

11:52

last episode I was on, I started

11:54

doing some half-ass vibe coding, you know,

11:56

like learning how programming and I've

11:58

been doing more. since then. And

12:01

it's pretty much all around building these

12:03

MCP servers, as they confusingly call them.

12:05

And yeah, it's pretty straightforward and a

12:07

little less mystical once you actually do

12:09

it, like all things written in the

12:12

specification. And you've got like, I think

12:14

what you were probably describing, you have

12:16

tools, which I would just call a

12:18

plug-in, right? Like you have, like if

12:20

you imagine using Claude and you get

12:23

a plug-in, and here's some new functionality

12:25

that can do something. and you know

12:27

it can call out to the internet

12:29

or do stuff. There's like some semantic

12:32

thinking they have about like what you

12:34

use a tool for versus the other,

12:36

I don't even know what they call

12:38

them, entities. So you've got this other

12:40

thing called a resource, which is basically

12:43

just a chunk of data, whether it's

12:45

a file or a database or like

12:47

an IDE that you're looking at. It's

12:49

like something that you would retrieve through

12:51

URLs. And then there's something called a

12:54

prompt, and this is the most confusing

12:56

thing, which is, it's, it's, if you're

12:58

in Claude, for example, you call out

13:00

to a prompt, to a MCP prompt,

13:02

and it returns a prompt that Claude

13:05

runs, which I don't really know what

13:07

you're supposed to do with that. I

13:09

guess maybe it's like a recipe that

13:11

you would run, and you could imagine,

13:14

like, if you're dynamically, you're creating this

13:16

prompt. I don't know, it's a way

13:18

to like drive the prompt. Now there's

13:20

some other things that they don't really,

13:22

there's something called sampling where your little,

13:25

your plug-in can call back to the

13:27

model and query it, but I don't

13:29

think anyone really implements that. But I

13:31

don't but you know sometimes I just

13:33

wonder like if ever you know like

13:36

software architects just make it too complicated

13:38

like just borrow from like game like

13:40

video gaming is it's like I don't

13:42

know I think of it almost just

13:45

is like power ups. It's like oh

13:47

I install this now my claw I

13:49

can do more like now I can

13:51

like do all the stuff in get

13:53

up for me right oh I saw

13:56

this now I can like do all

13:58

these things on my Mac for me.

14:00

And it's just sort of like,

14:02

I just think it's sort of like,

14:04

to me, that's the part that is

14:06

like interesting. And also the part,

14:09

like, I sort of like, probably

14:11

like a lot of people, I

14:13

hate all the talk about agent

14:15

and agentic, right? It's always like,

14:17

what are you talking about? But

14:19

if you say to me what this

14:21

is, is like, oh, through these MCP

14:23

agents, right, I can essentially allow the

14:25

LM to do a bunch of stuff,

14:27

and I, I'm directing everyone, or all the, if

14:29

you will, directing it what to do. So I'm the

14:32

agent. And that side. And so it's like that part,

14:34

now I kind of get it. It's like, okay, and

14:36

from that, once you're kind of sitting there doing stuff,

14:38

you could see like, okay, I now kind of get it,

14:40

you could have a computer driving this now as

14:42

well, that's quote unquote an agent. But it's sort

14:44

of like, I don't know, I feel like that's like

14:46

that's like a necessary step to be like a necessary

14:48

step to be like a necessary step to be

14:50

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

14:52

like, like, like, like, like, like, MCPs

14:55

installed and asking things to get done

14:57

sort of like if you will makes

14:59

the idea of this agent very tangible

15:01

Right before it was just it was

15:03

just like oh it just like magically

15:05

does something and and as with all

15:07

things in AI land programming is the

15:09

is the first example of this right

15:11

so I think probably all of us

15:13

have experienced what we're talking about an

15:15

action where you well if Well, I assume

15:18

Kershaw kind of does this as well. But

15:20

like, you can open up chat GPT and

15:22

like bind it to Intella Jay and then

15:24

it just can look at Intella Jay. So

15:26

it treats it as a thing it can

15:28

connect to and it can write code in

15:30

it and tell you what's going on. And

15:32

so that whole, that is what's going on

15:34

with MCP, right? It's just a way

15:36

of connecting to other stuff and doing

15:38

things with it. And I think, I

15:40

mean, you started off with kind of

15:43

bumping up against the part that I've

15:45

only recently started thinking about is like

15:47

What's in what's business

15:49

what strategy and business

15:51

wise interesting about MCP is

15:54

that The way that the AI

15:56

determines when and what to

15:58

call is left unspecified Like

16:00

that part is not part of the

16:02

spec as far as I can

16:04

tell and so that's what's interesting

16:06

there is like so you have

16:08

all these people writing plugins which

16:10

technically is called an MCP

16:13

server very confusing way the server

16:15

is actually the the whatever

16:17

doesn't matter but you've got

16:19

all these people writing plugins

16:21

kind of bringing value

16:23

bringing functionality and then it

16:26

kind of sets up someone like

16:28

Claude or other people like way

16:30

of using those tools and

16:32

reasoning through it has some

16:34

kind of competitive advantage. And

16:36

it also means that like, if

16:39

you want to actually use MCP

16:41

stuff, you need some model that

16:43

knows how to call all these

16:45

tools and do it, which is

16:47

actually mysterious and spooky, right?

16:49

Like, how does all that

16:52

work? Doesn't this just kind

16:54

of further lessen the value of

16:56

the LOMs? I mean... Well, no, that's

16:58

that's that's the point that I'm making

17:00

is it. It could. But then also, also, like,

17:02

you could have proprietary stuff in your LOM

17:04

that figured out how to do calling out

17:07

to tools more interestingly, right? Like, or not,

17:09

right? You could even not give that part

17:11

away. Like, you could have a whole separate

17:14

little thing that's driving, like, how you keep

17:16

track of and do these tools. And

17:18

then also how you implement it. Like,

17:20

so if you imagine, if you're using

17:22

this to do, like, like, like, like,

17:24

like, transactional stuff, like, like, like, like,

17:26

like, or whatever, you've got to like

17:28

build in all sorts of stuff into

17:30

to whatever clients doing it. But yes,

17:32

you would figure the LLLMs. But I do

17:34

think another way I like to think of

17:36

it is sort of like, at least in

17:38

the workflows I've been personally doing, it is sort

17:41

of like, you know, you have LLLM, take

17:43

docor, we've been talking about that one a

17:45

lot, right? Sort of like, I will often

17:47

ask the LEM, it's like, you know, write me

17:49

a, write me a docur file. Tell me how to run

17:51

the macro file, how do I start this, how do I

17:53

stop it, what should, you know, and sort of it kind

17:55

of, if you always guiding me, giving me the commands, and

17:58

then I'll run them, right? And then, as you're alluding. to

18:00

the IDs now will often, they'll show you

18:02

the command and then you could say run,

18:04

right? And they'll run it to the command,

18:06

certainly in cursor. But this is like the

18:09

next level where it's like, oh, wait a

18:11

minute. I don't have to do any, like,

18:13

that whole layer of like asking, getting a

18:15

command to run, I don't have to do

18:17

that anymore. I don't have to do that

18:19

anymore. Like, do this is like, like think

18:22

about AWS and I think this applies to

18:24

all the cloud vendors it's like configuring AWS

18:26

is usually about learning all the configuration screens

18:28

what they actually mean and which fields to

18:30

fill out when you're like setting something up

18:33

right it's not necessarily understanding the core concepts

18:35

like once you kind of get that it's

18:37

more like oh I got 10 screens I

18:39

gotta go through to set up a network

18:41

or whatever VPC and it's like oh like

18:44

it would be great if there was if

18:46

you will and I'm sure they're working on

18:48

it like an MCP for AWS right where

18:50

I could just tell it like set all

18:52

this up do all of this for me

18:54

and let it figure it out that way

18:57

I don't want to have to learn all

18:59

the screens like I told you what I

19:01

want to do you figure out all the

19:03

screens like I told you what I want

19:05

to do you figure out all the because

19:08

like I mean again not picking an AWS

19:10

it's sort of like sometimes there's a field

19:12

you have to complete sometimes it's a radio

19:14

but you know it's like just all the

19:16

if you will knobs for a you could

19:19

just do all that for me. So I

19:21

think that to me is like the obvious

19:23

like natural language interfaces into all of these

19:25

IT tools. So we don't have to like,

19:27

you know, if we'll become, you know, masters

19:30

of the trivia of all the different commands.

19:32

Like I think that is a fantastic use

19:34

case. Yeah, and I think I think that's

19:36

definitely one of the intention and that's that's

19:38

the what makes it the agentric part is

19:40

stringing together calls to all these different tools

19:43

and reasoning and orchestrating and orchestrating and orchestrating

19:45

and orchestrating them. In my in my little

19:47

area of interest playing dungeons and dragons there's

19:49

another there's another behavior that's interesting to look

19:51

at so like. A lot

19:54

of what we, when

19:56

you're using it for

19:58

programming and stuff we've

20:00

been talking about is

20:02

kind of like, you

20:04

know, you're like telling it what to

20:07

do and what you wanna do.

20:09

But like, you can also make, you

20:11

make these little little plugins that

20:13

for example, will randomly tell you like

20:15

what kind of mood a non -playing character is

20:17

in. And then so when you're playing

20:19

Dungeons and Dragons, you go into Claude and

20:21

you're like, you encounter an NPC and it figures

20:24

out that it has this tool that will

20:26

tell you what mood an NPC is in and

20:28

it'll just call it. Like you don't have

20:30

to tell it like, look up

20:32

what mood the NPC is in. So there's an

20:34

interesting like, and that's, I think that's maybe where, like

20:37

what I'm thinking about as far as like, there

20:41

could be some proprietary value in

20:43

how the model knows to

20:45

call various tools out there. Right? So it's

20:47

somehow interpreting that I'm telling a story. Someone's

20:49

walking down the street, they're in a village.

20:51

There's a lot of buildings in a village.

20:53

I wonder what kind of buildings there are.

20:55

Oh, look, I have a tool here that

20:57

tells me randomly what kind of buildings there

20:59

are. And it knows to like go out

21:01

and use that tool or not. Maybe, when

21:03

does it not call it? But

21:05

anyways, it's just sort of like offering

21:07

up all these things to it.

21:09

Now that said, the

21:12

Claude implementation, ironically, is

21:14

pretty terrible. Yeah.

21:17

Now I think what you're, the part

21:19

like with all of these new tools is

21:21

the configuration is just mind numbing, right?

21:23

I feel like it is, right? You have

21:25

to. And I think this is the

21:27

first kind of thought I had around like,

21:29

well, for this to gain any real

21:31

traction, it's like, it doesn't seem like

21:34

there's any reason everyone needs to be standing up. You

21:36

said a server, but what you're really doing is

21:38

you're standing up a tiny, for

21:40

me, in most cases

21:42

a tiny Docker server that's

21:44

simply, if you will,

21:46

taking your requests, going to

21:48

that server and then going out and actually

21:50

making the request like to GitHub or something like

21:52

that. So it's like, really what you would

21:54

think for this to gain some adoption would just

21:56

be like, well, GitHub or I'm just picking

21:58

any of them. Like they should. have this configured on

22:01

their site ready to go. I should be

22:03

able to just authenticate to the, if you

22:05

want to authenticate, I want to talk to,

22:07

get hub from the LLC, and just like

22:09

behind the scenes like, you know, you can

22:11

say like, get hub is running the MCP

22:14

agent, or they've, if you will, they've created

22:16

their own, an API, like a native part

22:18

of that that kind of sits within it.

22:20

So sort of like, I think to myself

22:22

like, Ideally, like every SAS service would

22:25

wrap itself in, if you will, provide

22:27

this interface, just like they provide a

22:29

web-based interface, right? You could just be like,

22:31

okay, yeah, if you want to talk to me

22:33

from an ALM, you know, here's how you do it,

22:35

here's the way to do it. That way

22:37

you don't have to run all these servers

22:40

yourself, because otherwise it's just like, I mean,

22:42

no one's gonna, like I think you get

22:44

a couple of these going, and you're just

22:46

sort of like, at some point you're just like

22:48

well that's enough you don't want to just

22:50

keep you know spinning up darker servers and

22:52

it's so that that part you can see where

22:55

it could go but you can also see

22:57

where like no one's gonna like unless it

22:59

gets the adoption where people are gonna do

23:01

that on their websites I feel like it

23:03

may not get adopted at all well it'll

23:05

come from like sales force right they've been

23:07

all talking about agents and stuff wouldn't they

23:09

be a naturalist candidate for

23:11

this, which of course opens

23:13

the door for every sales

23:16

force engineer in the world

23:18

to become an expert in

23:20

tuning the sales force. Yeah,

23:22

you know, just for your

23:24

particular deployment of sales force

23:26

because sales force is where

23:28

AI goes to like struggle.

23:30

I think for sure, but

23:32

like we should say like

23:34

in a very appropriate timing.

23:36

So today was. the GCP

23:38

keynote Google Club next there

23:40

and they announced the agent to agent

23:43

protocol also known as A2A and so

23:45

what they're what this is doing and

23:47

they said it you know it's one

23:49

of these things where of course at

23:51

the beginning everyone gets along they say

23:53

it's a compliment and MCP but I'll

23:55

just read because it just came out

23:57

so I have not dug into it

23:59

I don't know exactly what it does

24:01

but like conceptually the definition they give

24:03

here is quote agents can advertise their

24:05

capabilities using and quote agent card in

24:07

jason format allowing the client agent to

24:09

identify the best agent that can perform

24:12

a task and leverage A to A

24:14

to communicate with the remote agent end

24:16

quote so it's a lot that's a

24:18

very dense sentence but like and they

24:20

announced a bunch of. partners. I think

24:22

sales force was on there and they

24:24

actually had Benny off speak and give

24:27

a little thing. But that's the idea

24:29

is that like, I guess, you know,

24:31

in this world, everything would present an

24:33

agent card, which is like MCP's yamel.

24:35

I don't know what they call it

24:37

Cote. Maybe you do. It's basically, you

24:39

know, it gives a set of things

24:42

that can do. And then from that,

24:44

you can start interacting. So I don't

24:46

know, like, like, it remains to be

24:48

seeing, like, like, like, like, like, cards

24:50

like co-exists, will they be competing standards?

24:52

Obviously Google's a big company, they've got

24:54

50 large websites doing it, do other

24:56

people do that? But you kind of

24:59

see where it's going now though. Like

25:01

somebody, you know, to your original point,

25:03

Matt, it's like everyone that has a

25:05

SAS is going to be asked to

25:07

like implement one of these or both

25:09

of these protocols. And at least initially,

25:11

that's going to be how you ultimately.

25:14

communicate from LLLMs. But of course, like,

25:16

even within that, like the authentication gets

25:18

pretty wonky when you're actually using it,

25:20

because the LLLM starts to ask you

25:22

questions, like, do I have permission to

25:24

do it? And like, have you configured

25:26

your tokens? So there's a lot to

25:29

be worked out from a usability standpoint,

25:31

I think. Yeah, especially security. I mean,

25:33

just simply logging into things is weird.

25:35

But you know, in MCP, they. they're

25:37

working on something. I haven't really read

25:39

it. But I wanted to ask you

25:41

to, since I've been out of the

25:43

whole programming scene for a while, there

25:46

was a spec or a schema for

25:48

the A to A, and it was

25:50

written in like Jason. It was like,

25:52

here's our schema, it's in Jason. And

25:54

I wanted to ask, is this like

25:56

what the kids are doing nowadays when

25:58

you do stuff? Is it all? and

26:01

Jason, because that's the feeling I'm getting

26:03

is you're just like Jason everywhere. Yeah,

26:05

pretty much. Like I thought it was YAMEL everywhere,

26:07

but now for when you're at the

26:09

programming, the application layer is at Jason,

26:12

and then when you're at the

26:14

Devops layer, you're yameling, is that what's

26:16

going on? Yeah, humans don't like the

26:18

little, I mean, there is a whole, well,

26:20

I guess there's like, I guess there's a lot

26:22

of comments in it, huh, I mean, I

26:24

feel like there's like there's a

26:26

whole, I don't know, I guess maybe

26:29

to be more fair about it,

26:31

there's a Jason specification coupled with, you

26:33

know, like all the GitHub stuff, like, you

26:35

know, like, yeah, of course. Like, like, and

26:37

I could see, I could see that it

26:40

would be totally cool, because, you know,

26:42

you could take a protocol or

26:44

an interface spec like that and

26:46

just easily load it up into

26:48

some tool and just auto generate

26:50

the shit out of things, right, like, which

26:52

should be fine. Whatever. Yeah, I guess that's true. I

26:54

guess I haven't really thought about, yeah, I guess that's

26:57

what people do, do, though. Now, it's sort of, my

26:59

only question is like, does anyone actually

27:01

write all this Jason by hand or is

27:03

everything just generated? Is even the specification generated?

27:05

As I was washing some dishes, I was thinking

27:07

over this and I was thinking, man, that would be

27:09

such a, I had the same exact thought brand and

27:11

I was like, I bet they just have a tool

27:13

and it just have a tool and it just spits this

27:16

out and it just spits this out. Yeah, yeah, because

27:18

like, it's just one is, there's 2,000

27:20

lines of Jason, obviously a lot of

27:22

brackets here. So it's like, that would

27:24

actually be an interesting question.

27:26

How, I don't know, maybe, Matt, you know,

27:28

the answer. How did this all get, how

27:31

did the original version of this get generated?

27:33

Like, did someone like, like, what, like, does

27:35

anyone actually sit down and write a

27:37

little part and then you just start

27:39

to, like, like, recursively start

27:41

adding to itself? Well, it was probably

27:43

just a dictionary, you know, a nested

27:46

hash tables and you said, you know,

27:48

to Jason and ta-da, it's done. Yeah,

27:50

you could use like Omni Outliner basically.

27:52

So really sure question then every, maybe,

27:54

I don't know, I guess you could

27:56

use other languages, but like every specification

27:59

starts. Python maybe right? Well

28:01

it doesn't have to be Python but it starts

28:03

as like a hack game. Right. Right. But

28:05

like you messed it hash tables that's all it

28:07

is. And then you just create like so I

28:09

don't know it's just kind of funny it's like

28:12

at the end like not like only machines

28:14

ever read this but everything is all is like

28:16

generated I don't know it's kind of interesting or

28:18

maybe just ask an LM to generate the

28:20

Jason for you so it's it literally is everything's

28:22

just recursing just recursing pretty much. But so I

28:25

guess I guess I guess what I'm

28:27

hearing here is it's not like there

28:29

was some you know I triple E

28:31

or W3C meeting where they went over

28:33

this But like if you're writing some

28:35

framework and you're going to specify Like

28:37

what a schema is you're going to

28:39

be publishing a Jason file. Is that

28:41

is that like a normal thing or there's

28:43

no nothing else that you publish?

28:45

Okay, now I'm thinking to myself. How

28:48

did people write the XML specifications back

28:50

in the day? Oh God. What were

28:52

people doing then? How did that get

28:54

written? Are people writing that? I don't know.

28:57

Maybe so. Back in the good old days.

28:59

But no, I don't want to do that

29:01

anymore. But I did want you know, I wanted

29:03

your take on this. So maybe we can

29:05

put on some Ben Thompson, like

29:07

put aside the technical details for

29:09

a second. It's like, okay, well,

29:11

like everyone's wondering about the business

29:13

models of LLLMs. And so where

29:15

I was thinking was like, like,

29:17

let's just put all the, the

29:20

implementation to the side, just assume.

29:22

We live in a world where

29:24

it's like every website that does

29:26

something has some type of agent

29:28

agent or MCP interface, right?

29:30

Then if that is the case, in my

29:32

mind, it's like, that seems to

29:34

set up this idea of

29:37

like, kind of affiliate marketing

29:39

kind of based business models,

29:41

where it's like, you're in the LML

29:43

and you're like, hey, I want a

29:45

I'm taking a trip to, you know.

29:47

Amsterdam and on these dates, find

29:49

all the flights and find all

29:51

the hotels and show me the

29:54

rental car, build me a whole

29:56

itinerary for it, right? So instead

29:58

of like, so you think. how

30:00

you do today, you probably go to two

30:02

or three websites, comparison, shop, you get

30:04

it. But it's like sort of like, so this

30:06

isn't like, and this is, I want to draw

30:08

the scene here. I'm not asking an agent to

30:10

do it. I'm the one sitting in front of

30:12

the LM doing that. So I want all of

30:14

this information in front of me, right? And then

30:16

I'll probably go back and forth and be like,

30:18

oh, is there a cheaper flight and you know,

30:20

kind of do some, adjust my dates to get

30:22

the best prices to get the best prices to

30:24

get the best prices to get the best prices,

30:27

I actually, I say to itself,

30:29

like, I have accounts with, like, for

30:31

you, maybe, Kochi, it's, what's your

30:33

favorite airline? I was about to

30:35

say American. KELM. KELM. But it's

30:37

for you to be like, yeah,

30:40

you know, you know, here's, like,

30:42

there's a KLL, KELM agent, right?

30:44

So you just, okay, book it

30:46

on KELM, and maybe even takes

30:48

you to the screen, right, right,

30:50

right? If you will, it's like, these are

30:52

like a nice interface that just does

30:54

exactly what I want. It strips away

30:56

all the like nonsense of the websites

30:59

that I have to use. But in

31:01

the end, like, you know, you could

31:03

see if you will, like if it's

31:05

ChatGBT, for example, taking a

31:07

small commission. It's like, hey, I

31:09

helped the person book all of

31:11

this and I actually made the

31:13

reservation and they were ultimately the

31:16

ones that clicked. buy but like you

31:18

know give me if you will give me

31:20

5% of that transaction or 10% of that

31:22

transaction yeah because like like to me it's

31:24

sort of like oh this could be the

31:26

business model like this is sort of how

31:28

and the whole thing is predicated on

31:30

it's cleaner to do all this in

31:32

an LLLN than it is to like

31:34

go use all of these websites on

31:36

their own so I don't know is

31:39

that like a if you will not

31:41

advertising business model but it's a affiliate

31:43

business model that's a new travel agent

31:45

well but I think but I also

31:47

get to the point like the same

31:49

thing with like like sales force right

31:51

it's sort of like I want to

31:53

interact I don't want to use the

31:55

sales force API right I just want

31:57

like just do this right so it's sort

31:59

of like, if you will, like, that's

32:02

the value of it, right? That's,

32:04

so it's not, if you will,

32:06

the LLLM just spinning back,

32:08

like, answering questions. It's the

32:10

fact that it, if you

32:12

will, it's sort of, like,

32:14

the natural language interface to

32:16

all these things. And if it does

32:18

do that well, it does do that

32:20

well, it does seem like the

32:22

various websites would be able

32:25

to, if you will, that can

32:27

help pay for using LLLMs. Yeah, I

32:29

haven't like like like like thought

32:31

about that, but yeah, that makes

32:33

perfect sense. You haven't got another

32:35

business model on the table and

32:37

then I mean, you think of

32:39

it analogously, yeah, like you think

32:41

of it analogously as like the

32:43

the app store and Amazon, right,

32:45

where like you basically have, I

32:47

was making multi-sided platform jokes earlier,

32:50

but you know, you've got a.

32:52

You've got a listing of stuff that

32:54

people are searching for and you can

32:56

take a commission whenever they use each

32:59

thing. And then you can also get

33:01

paid to more prominently show other

33:03

people's stuff. So for example, maybe

33:05

KLLM pays more money to have

33:08

their stuff easier to use and

33:10

more integrated. And of course, you know,

33:12

then you will enter the world of

33:14

whatever they'll end up calling it,

33:16

side loading. your little plugins. So

33:18

you could always, you know, you

33:20

could always add the the.org like

33:22

freeway of doing stuff. But then,

33:24

you know, people just think it's

33:26

a lot easier. I've got my account

33:29

set up. I'm just going to click

33:31

on this and my God. I mean,

33:33

I just heard the gates opening to

33:35

the incitification of the platform already.

33:37

Right. Yeah, there you go. Well, I think

33:40

it's like one of two ways. I think

33:42

you could say like, like, certainly there's a

33:44

way to be abused. But like. It's not

33:46

so much certification. Think about all the apps

33:48

on your iPhone, right? That's kind of what

33:50

they are. I mean, they're, if you will,

33:53

they're just human-based interfaces. I even talked the

33:55

other day about, like, quick links, right? Like,

33:57

I finally started using quick links on my

33:59

iPhone. like sometimes like there's just these small

34:01

apps you just do two or three things

34:04

with them but you just have to like

34:06

go into there find them right you know

34:08

learn their u. And it's like oh this

34:10

quick link is nice where like I think

34:13

I talked about Denmo it's like oh scan

34:15

to pay that's all I want to do

34:17

right and it's like a in some ways

34:20

like these things can also be like the

34:22

clean interface right it's sort of like I

34:24

just want to do this like Amazon's a

34:26

great example like I bet you everybody has

34:29

their own way of like searching You kind

34:31

of have to ignore the sponsored ads at

34:33

the beginning. You're starting to look for like

34:35

a certain amount, something that's been recommended, but

34:38

maybe has like a lot of recommendations that

34:40

you don't think are easily spanned. Then you

34:42

click on it, you look at the price,

34:44

where's it coming from? Maybe you check some

34:47

of the reviews to see if it looks

34:49

like legit. Right. You know, kind of go

34:51

through this whole process before you actually buy

34:53

something. Right. Like the LM do all of

34:56

that for me, right? Like I want a

34:58

new thing. The problem though is the LLC

35:00

comes from Amazon, which means you're going to

35:02

say, show me, you know, kids bikes. And

35:05

what's going to happen is Amazon will be

35:07

like, oh, you want to be at the

35:09

top of the search results for kids bikes?

35:11

You know, you're going to pay us. And

35:14

then you're like. And then of course there'll

35:16

be like, you know, 5,000 people who will

35:18

list the same product under different company names.

35:20

So they get more hits within the search

35:23

engine. And you're going to use this agent

35:25

and it's just going to show you trash.

35:27

Right? And I do think you have in

35:29

between there, right? You do have the agent.

35:32

And this is the belief, right? I mean,

35:34

I don't know. I don't know. I don't

35:36

know. But you have, this is where the

35:38

LML does the magic, right. Right. I know

35:41

he wants to see this or like I'm

35:43

I'm good at querying it that way because

35:45

I do think I don't know it's just

35:47

sort of like getting a lot of this

35:50

if you will it's almost like the user

35:52

interface is in the way if we don't

35:54

have to do it if I could talk

35:56

to like just natural language and it actually

35:59

worked there's a ton of a value there.

36:01

And again, back to maybe, again, I think

36:03

the buying stuff I grew with you has

36:05

a lot of problems. But it's just

36:08

kind of back to like, and get,

36:10

maybe we'll talk about that in a

36:12

second, but it's like, I don't want

36:14

to learn all these crazy commands and

36:17

get. I just want you to do

36:19

the crazy commands and get. I just

36:21

want you to do the thing. And

36:23

so it's like, I don't want to

36:25

learn all these crazy commands and get.

36:27

I just want you to make it.

36:30

Q or Rufus or you know, bang.

36:32

Yeah, that's definitely not it. But that's

36:34

that's the path, right? They're like, oh,

36:36

you know, can our AI find what

36:38

you need today? And soon it'll just

36:40

be like, you know, oh, we've turned, you

36:42

know, we've turned this thing also into an

36:44

agent that plugs into it. So you can

36:47

use this, you know, so your AI could

36:49

talk to our AI. And it's like. I

36:51

still know you suck, right? Well, then maybe

36:53

though, okay, so maybe being a slightly different

36:55

take would be like, well, maybe, okay, if

36:57

Amazon's so kind of entrenched in the way

36:59

they're doing it, maybe it opens up like

37:02

kind of all the Shopify sites, you know,

37:04

they just like, the Shopify sites that are

37:06

just trying to sell one item, that's really

37:08

good. And all they care about is

37:10

they don't care how you find them.

37:12

They're just like, we just want to

37:14

sell you are a widget, you are

37:16

a widget, you are widget, a widget,

37:18

a widget, a good price. Yeah, I'm

37:20

not going to go search 50 sites

37:22

or 100 sites, but maybe behind the

37:24

scenes are like, oh, he's looking for

37:26

shoes like this, forget Amazon, I'm going

37:28

to this place, I'm going to this

37:30

area, and this is going to give

37:32

really a really clean set of results.

37:34

This is like taking back control of

37:36

like advertisers. Now you can advertise

37:38

to yourself. Like you have your own profile

37:40

of like what you're interested in want and you

37:42

have an agent that goes on on your behalf.

37:44

Well I thought a little bit like I'm interested

37:46

in belt buckles. Right. I was seeing a little

37:48

bit like wire cutter. I don't know where I

37:50

mean that sort of has mixed reviews these days

37:53

but I guess when it came out I thought

37:55

like like a wire cutter recommendation with a link

37:57

in it that was fine. I was like these

37:59

people have studied. TVs or whatever, whatever it

38:01

is, or vacuums at such a

38:03

length, I have no idea. I'm just

38:06

clicking on the link, I'm gonna

38:08

buy that one. So it's the same

38:10

idea. It's like incentivizes someone producing

38:12

like really high quality

38:15

recommendations and making it really easy

38:17

to buy and that's the value, right?

38:19

Like could we get through LOMs? Could

38:21

we have the LOM kind of do that

38:23

for us? I'm just maybe

38:26

overly optimistic. No, no, no.

38:28

Well, I'm flashing forward to

38:30

the Neil Stevenson book Dodge

38:33

where you know, rich people

38:35

had the good LLLMs. And

38:37

the plebs get like the

38:39

ones that are nothing but

38:42

trash recommendations and AIs, you

38:44

know, and and and Google

38:46

AI results, right? And. So you

38:48

know you you will need to pay to

38:50

have a good curator in the future because

38:53

there's so much noise and trash. Well maybe

38:55

okay so maybe that brings us to like

38:57

this next topic because maybe the get

38:59

is a good example of this so

39:01

like you I think Matt you posted

39:03

this one it was 20 years of

39:06

get so it's basically the history of

39:08

like where it came from and why it

39:10

was and I thought one of the quotes

39:12

that really. stood out to me was quote

39:14

is important to understand that this is why

39:16

get was created not to be a version

39:18

control system really but fundamentally to be a

39:20

better way to do patches and tar balls

39:23

snapshot a set of files and show differences

39:25

that can be discussed so I just thought

39:27

another quote that I thought was funny was

39:29

this one was quote this wasn't a system

39:31

that someone sat down a meticulously designed

39:33

from a huge ability standpoint from day

39:35

one and I was like I think

39:37

to me those those quotes just resonate

39:39

perfectly and I thought to myself It is

39:42

what it is. Gets here. I mean, I

39:44

feel like it's been way too complicated, but

39:46

I just find myself, like, I'm using the

39:48

LLM as my front end to get. I'm

39:50

not learning anything. I'm just sort of like

39:52

asking what commands to run to do it.

39:54

And I think this is maybe, you know,

39:57

the path forward is like, you know, could

39:59

a natural-based interface. kind of all these

40:01

MCPs going forward. I think to me

40:03

like this is the way it should

40:05

be going forward like we shouldn't have

40:07

to like do all these crazy command

40:10

line stuff. So and there isn't obviously

40:12

any advertising here it's just sort of

40:14

making it simpler to you. So so

40:16

I don't know Matt maybe you're the

40:18

right person to ask here sort of

40:20

like will you do you ever ask

40:23

the OLMs how to use get or

40:25

does it all so ingrained in you

40:27

you just know how to do everything?

40:29

Oh no no no no I I

40:31

I mean I mean I mean I

40:34

consider I consider. I consider myself I

40:36

consider myself. I consider myself. I consider

40:38

myself. I consider myself. an intermediate level

40:40

user of get like I I I

40:42

feel like I know 95% of what

40:45

you could do but I also know

40:47

that I'm not going to do most

40:49

of it because I don't know how

40:51

to do it well or how to

40:53

do it right right I mean I

40:56

look at some commands like bisect I'm

40:58

like cool no right it's just like

41:00

that's not for me I mean I

41:02

I I get what they're doing but

41:04

I'm probably going to go back to

41:07

the workflows that I understand to do

41:09

similar efforts. You know, I mean, GIT

41:11

has some amazingly powerful commands, but the

41:13

UI-UX experience is, you know, it's trash.

41:15

And that's always been the complaint. Well,

41:17

not always. But, you know, that's, that's

41:20

the, the Cool Kids complaint about GIT

41:22

is like, yeah, there are lots of,

41:24

you know, you know, CLI. alternatives that

41:26

are still the same back end that

41:28

are you know starting to gain popularity

41:31

but yeah if AI wants to do

41:33

it you know I see and that's

41:35

kind of the point where I would

41:37

ask air like hey I need to

41:39

you know merge these three branches and

41:42

move this one onto that one before

41:44

I merge it to this one and

41:46

it would hopefully show me what it's

41:48

going to try to do and I

41:50

at least feel like at this stage

41:53

I could reason over what it's doing

41:55

and I'd be like Okay, let's you

41:57

know, let's do that, but it's still,

41:59

um, It's still really complicated. Right,

42:01

but I mean like today in cursor,

42:04

right, it'll do it and it will

42:06

show you the commands, right? Yeah, yeah,

42:08

yeah. And that's why you can show

42:10

me the commands, but there's still terrible

42:12

commands. That's what I'm saying, but like,

42:14

what I find is like, I don't

42:17

like, I don't really, I guess what

42:19

I've learned about myself is like, I

42:21

don't really need them to show me

42:23

the commands because I don't have any

42:25

idea of knowing they're knowing they're right.

42:27

It's like, I don't know, I don't know, like, especially something you

42:30

just talked about there, which is like, I don't know, we'll

42:32

call it reasonably complex, like merge this, do that, and it's

42:34

like, you're just gonna be like, okay, try it. So that's

42:36

the part where I'm just like, no, no, I just want,

42:38

because there's really only two paths, there's either, and this like,

42:40

because there's really only two paths, there's either, and this, and

42:42

just, because there's really only, there's really only, there's really only,

42:44

there's really only two, there's only, there's only, there's

42:46

only, there's only, there's only, there's only, there's only,

42:49

there's only, there's only, there's only, there's only,

42:51

there's, there's only, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's,

42:53

there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there Man,

42:55

I've been thinking for a long time, is

42:57

like, someone needs to just take a fresh

42:59

look at this, but like, probably not, that ship is

43:01

sailed. And it's like, well, in lieu of that,

43:03

just put the LLLM on top of it and

43:05

like, you know, I don't care what it does

43:08

behind the scenes. Whatever crazy commands it needs

43:10

to do, it's like, fine. just do it.

43:12

So, um, so I know, so that's sort of

43:14

like, it's just kind of, if you will, all

43:16

this legacy software, you can think of the same

43:18

thing of the taxes and all this other stuff,

43:21

it's like, if we can't rewrite it, maybe we

43:23

can just make the LLLM learn it and then

43:25

we don't have to learn it. Like, maybe that's

43:27

where I want to go. You know, Brandon, I

43:29

know you love, uh, asking little questions of

43:31

the chat GPT and other things.

43:33

You should, you should, you should,

43:36

next time you're, want to entertain

43:38

yourself, you should sit down and

43:40

say, design the ideal version

43:42

control system oriented around user

43:45

experience and like, understandability and like,

43:47

see what it comes up with.

43:49

And, you know, it would, I

43:51

would predict that it will just

43:54

use like normal words for things.

43:56

There won't be words like bisect

43:58

or, or whatever. Oh, sometimes you

44:00

need to have, you know, the most accurate

44:02

word. You know, because I don't think that's...

44:05

I mean, you know, I like words. It

44:07

just seems like, it just seems like version

44:09

control systems get a little esoteric and weird.

44:11

We're really like, we're really like a lot

44:14

of what you're wanting to do is like,

44:16

uh, I want to make sure that I

44:18

don't lose this file. So put that in

44:20

the hyphen hyphen hyphen command. And then like,

44:23

like, I want the version of the version

44:25

of the file from five versions of the

44:27

file from five versions of the file from

44:30

five versions of five versions ago. Yeah. Get

44:32

that for me. And then, and then like,

44:34

you know, every now and then you, you

44:36

want to be like, um, I want to

44:39

work on two different versions of this file

44:41

at once and then be able to like,

44:43

pick the one that I want. And, you

44:45

know, like what has changed? What's latest? You

44:48

know, all this kind of stuff. Well, here,

44:50

let's, we'll do a little, because I took

44:52

a little poll. in the software to find

44:54

Talk Slack. So maybe you guys would like

44:57

to get your take. And as we kind

44:59

of think you might get, it's like, so

45:01

something fairly simple. I was setting up various

45:03

machines about like how to authenticate into get

45:06

hub. Probably applies to get lab as well.

45:08

So I was just sort of like, well,

45:10

what is the best way? Because there's like

45:12

1, 1, you're doing a lot of get

45:15

work. But every time. But if you have

45:17

to, like you're doing your, because the other

45:19

day, I actually sent you a pull request

45:21

and true software to find talk. So I

45:24

know you're in there and I know you're

45:26

doing your little side projects. What do you

45:28

do? Yeah. You know, I think this is

45:31

a great example. This is a great. I

45:33

know you don't do the lot, but what

45:35

would you do? I think I really don't

45:37

remember, but I feel like I always have

45:40

to search on Google. Go to get hub

45:42

down to deep down into some link and

45:44

then I like developer settings Which is like

45:46

three levels deep right you had to go

45:49

right? And I developer settings and then you're

45:51

faced with a whole bunch of options Right

45:53

right and then I have to like copy

45:55

and paste something and go to the command

45:58

line and I'm never really sure what's happening

46:00

and yet involves security and keys. And so

46:02

then whatever that is, that's what I do.

46:04

All right, well, let's go to Matt. Matt,

46:07

Matt, how do you do, Matt, you probably

46:09

have a workflow, how do you set up

46:11

a year? Fresh machine, you need to authenticate

46:13

into your get all the account, what do

46:16

you do? Well, let's see, the thing

46:18

is I probably just cargo culted whatever

46:20

I had before. So I think

46:22

I'm still using SSH keys to

46:24

authenticate because I think that's how

46:27

I've I responded in the in

46:29

the polls like yeah I'm pretty

46:31

sure I just haven't I have

46:33

you know SSH keys associated with

46:35

with get. So here's the

46:37

results I asked everyone in

46:39

software to find talks like

46:41

how they did it so 70% use

46:43

SSH keys right? 7% is personal

46:46

access tokens. 7% also use the

46:48

classic tokens. this in get hub and

46:50

then 15% use the get hub CLI.

46:52

So that's where you do like GH

46:54

off logins. You basically just log in,

46:56

you know, using your credentials

46:58

in there. So what's interesting about, so

47:01

I asked, I did ask the LLLM,

47:03

and so basically they give you like

47:05

a full matrix of different ways and

47:07

like pros and cons, like from my

47:09

reading, it feels like the get hub

47:11

people want you to use personal

47:14

access tokens, right, because they're very

47:16

fine grained that you should actually

47:18

do it. Kind of a pain in the

47:20

ass, right? Because you sort of like have

47:23

to generate them. There only one time it's

47:25

unclear like I think to most people when

47:27

you when they get saved on your Mac.

47:29

I think even like pretty smart people

47:31

won't know where they're saved because they

47:33

go into the keychain inside of Mac

47:36

OS which is like super easy to

47:38

forget about. They usually they want them to

47:40

expire. Then you have to like, you know,

47:42

fix them. You have to like, you know,

47:44

fix them. You have to remember where they

47:47

are. Well, a lot of people just want to

47:49

use the SSH keys. Again, its own set of

47:51

problems because it's sort of not necessarily

47:53

secure in your machine, although you can make it a

47:55

path. So all of this is just to me, it's

47:57

just like, wow, like I just kind of come back

47:59

to like this. This is the level of

48:01

complexity of just sort of like, we

48:03

haven't even done anything yet, right? We

48:05

haven't even like, if you will, committed

48:08

one file. And it's just like, we

48:10

have so many options of doing it.

48:12

And so it's like, I just want

48:14

the LLLMs to figure all of this

48:17

out. And I think authentication is a

48:19

great place to start. I know this

48:21

is a wrong question, but like, can

48:23

I just use a username and password?

48:25

Right, so you would think, right? Because

48:28

like, why not? Just like, log, because

48:30

it'll prompt you. It will tell you,

48:32

if you put in your username password,

48:34

it will tell you that has been

48:37

deprecated as of like several years ago,

48:39

and then they'll then recommend personal access

48:41

tokens. But I think, based on this

48:43

survey, most people don't use those. Most

48:45

people use SSH keys, right? So it's

48:48

sort of like. It just becomes a

48:50

nightmare of configuration of authentication issues. So

48:52

it's sort of like, I guess I

48:54

think about this and again, we're picking

48:56

on get, I don't mean it, it's

48:59

obviously very successful in many ways. So,

49:01

you know, kudos to everyone who worked

49:03

on that. But I just kind of

49:05

come back to it's like, no, this

49:08

is a place where the LLLMs, I

49:10

would like them to just figure this

49:12

stuff out. I don't want to like.

49:14

be messing with all of these tokens

49:16

right and figuring all this stuff out

49:19

so I hope I hope the future

49:21

is the LLLM if we can't rewrite

49:23

get I hope the LLLM can do

49:25

all this work for me but finally

49:27

514 episodes in and Brandon thanks to

49:30

the get creators thanks for all the

49:32

work that you did I appreciate it

49:34

well I have to give them I

49:36

mean they're dominant right it's so I

49:39

it's just one of those things I

49:41

guess I guess I'm sad that it's

49:43

one out because I feel like it's

49:45

just the wrong way But anyway, you

49:47

know, it is what it is. People

49:50

love it. So, well, you know, I'm

49:52

going through the get hub docs and

49:54

they just kind of gloss over it.

49:56

Oh my, well, hey, man, to that,

49:58

right? They sort of waved your hands

50:01

on, because also the SSH settings are

50:03

in a different area than the personal

50:05

access tokens, right? And also, the fact

50:07

that they're not willing to tell you

50:10

not to use the classic tokens, but

50:12

the classic tokens are sitting right there.

50:14

So it goes from creating account in

50:16

the web UI and then go onto

50:18

your machine and create a repository and

50:21

push stuff. I'm like, you missed a

50:23

step in there. Totally, absolutely. And this

50:25

is the whole, like, I mean, this

50:27

is state of the art, right? This

50:29

is the state of the art source

50:32

control version that we want every new

50:34

developer coming on board. We want them

50:36

to learn this. And it's like, literally,

50:38

you're immediately sent to access management hell.

50:41

on the first day of your job.

50:43

They don't even visit hell. They're like,

50:45

there's no hell here. Skip over that.

50:47

Exactly. You have to discover it on

50:49

your own and go retrieve the magic

50:52

keys and then emerge again in order

50:54

to use it. Well, you know, speaking

50:56

of places where there is no hell.

50:58

Is there any bureaucracy this episode? A

51:00

couple quick things here. Somebody. posted funny

51:03

enough there's a site called get jobs

51:05

dot dev so people basically if you're

51:07

looking for a job I think a

51:09

lot of people are looking for a

51:12

job if you're looking for a It's

51:14

open source jobs. I think it's loosely

51:16

affiliated with CNCF or like, I think

51:18

that's where I got it. But anyway,

51:20

I just wanted to put it in

51:23

there. If you're looking for a job,

51:25

check there. Michael already mentioned free cycle.

51:27

So that sounds like the free site

51:29

everyone should use to like get rid

51:31

of all the stuff that junk in

51:34

their house. And then finally, if you

51:36

want a sticker, all you have to

51:38

do is send your. Postal address to

51:40

stickers at software fine talk.com Happy to

51:43

send your sticker anywhere in the world

51:45

and finally we're always looking for sponsors

51:47

We've had some people reach out probably

51:49

based on our great listeners recommending us

51:51

So if you if you think your

51:54

product or service needs a software to

51:56

find talk at Email your marketing people

51:58

tell them to talk to me and

52:00

we'll work something out. So do all

52:02

that for me and if you don't

52:05

want to email the marketing people, but

52:07

you have money you want to pay

52:09

us I'm sure we could figure that

52:11

out too. Even better. We'll give you

52:14

Cote's phone number. That's right. I got

52:16

a US and another one. and I

52:18

might answer it. Texting is preferred. That

52:20

would be better. Well, there's several conferences

52:22

coming up. One, not so much a

52:25

conference, but I don't know. It's kind

52:27

of like our annual What's Going On

52:29

with Tanzoo Update, and it's going to

52:31

be online April 16th at 9 AM

52:33

to 10 AM Pacific Time. California Time.

52:36

And I'm am seeing it and I

52:38

do a little interview. I'm going to

52:40

do an interview with our general manager,

52:42

but you can register for that for

52:45

free. If you go to software to

52:47

find talk.com/four. No, that's that's incorrect. If

52:49

you go to software to find talk.com/514,

52:51

you can find a link to it

52:53

in the conferences. And there's other conferences.

52:56

There's Devops Days Atlanta coming up sometime

52:58

soon on April 29th to 30th. There's

53:00

also Cloud Foundry Day hosted by my

53:02

work in Palo Alto, May 14th. We

53:04

have a workshop going over our AI

53:07

server stuff, how we do private cloud

53:09

AI stuff the day before that on

53:11

May 13th, if you want to go

53:13

to it. I'll put a link to

53:16

that there too. Then there's NDC Oslo,

53:18

May 21st to 23rd, I'll be speaking

53:20

there. And I forget the date, but

53:22

I'm also speaking at SRE Day, as

53:24

we Americans would say, Cologne. or Colm,

53:27

as other people say. And there's probably

53:29

some other conferences, but you can find

53:31

those conferences and those other ones. You

53:33

should definitely check out the ones about

53:35

my work. If you go to software

53:38

to find talk.com/514. Speaking of things that

53:40

you should check out for sure. Matt

53:42

Ray, what should people check out this

53:44

week? What do you have to recommend?

53:47

So I'm a big fan of the

53:49

search engine podcast and they had a

53:51

recent episode that I think it was

53:53

like a cross post with planet money

53:55

or maybe called the Memcoincosino where they

53:58

kind of got to, they dive into

54:00

the world of meme coins and you

54:02

know essentially like what they're all about

54:04

and it's it was kind of just

54:06

eye-opening and revolting at the same time

54:09

so I learned that there are at

54:11

the time of the podcast at least

54:13

five million meme coins out there and

54:15

whoa thousands a day we're being are

54:18

being added because essentially it's just like

54:20

I don't know casino spam it's bizarre

54:22

but it's bizarre but it's It's the

54:24

episode made me really think about like

54:26

what kind of dead in where we're

54:29

headed down as an economy, but any

54:31

who a little light listening, always a

54:33

good podcast, like and subscribe. Sounds like

54:35

like a audio version of when I

54:38

log into Twitter. Exactly. A bunch of

54:40

weird stuff. Very much so. Yeah. Well,

54:42

do you have something equally uplifting or

54:44

to recommend Brandon? Well I think uplifting

54:46

this is not my recommendation but we

54:49

didn't get to it and it really

54:51

doesn't deserve a long discussion I just

54:53

want to say that the person that

54:55

wrote this a love letter to CSV

54:57

format I just want to say that

55:00

this is my spiritual was it you

55:02

Brandon I wish I could say I

55:04

did it I don't know I can't

55:06

pronounce his but it's a great read

55:09

he gives eight reasons why CSV and

55:11

I just want to say when the

55:13

time comes you my friend are going

55:15

to get the keynote invitation to Legacy

55:17

Conf. That's, that's, this is the kind

55:20

of content I want to see. So

55:22

it's fantastic read. But I'll let everyone,

55:24

I'll let the listeners check that on

55:26

their own. Now my recommendations week is

55:28

something very simple. I finally bought a

55:31

car battery test or my car battery

55:33

seemed to be kind of flaky and

55:35

normally I just take it to the,

55:37

uh, mechanic or something and they just

55:40

you know they just tell me something

55:42

I believe it and they replace it

55:44

so I thought to myself like I

55:46

wish I want to actually know what's

55:48

going on so it was very cheap

55:51

bought on Amazon and it was very

55:53

nice because it gave me a bunch

55:55

of the readings I assume this is

55:57

something like the technicians use and it

55:59

was like, oh, finally, I'm an educated

56:02

battery user. And then of course, what

56:04

I do, I just went to Costco,

56:06

bought a new battery, and putting in

56:08

a battery in your car is not

56:11

very complicated. So I felt like I

56:13

both accomplished something and I actually now

56:15

understand what's going on with my car

56:17

battery. So it's worth, I think this

56:19

was like a $20 thing. So now,

56:22

of course, I can like actually diagnose

56:24

whether or not it's a battery problem.

56:26

Or if it isn't, I'll least know

56:28

going in that I'm going to get

56:30

the old alternator treatment. I'm getting the

56:33

high-price alternator replaced, but I like it.

56:35

So I feel like now I'm more

56:37

educated car driver. So if you're interested

56:39

in that, get yourself a battery tester.

56:42

And the link that I got is

56:44

in the show notes there. I'm going

56:46

to have to check that out, because

56:48

you know, apparently. uh... the the toyota

56:50

we have which is it's uh... it's

56:53

uh... it's like the corolla station wagon

56:55

that's not available in the hybrid and

56:57

and we've been told by the dealership

56:59

that if you don't drive it uh...

57:01

frequently enough the batteries just run out

57:04

even though it's full of batteries and

57:06

then the car doesn't start. I don't

57:08

know how you make a car that

57:10

does that, but you know, constantly troubleshooting

57:13

what's up with the battery. It's very

57:15

annoying. And then of course, you know,

57:17

you call the roadside assistance people, they

57:19

like. kind of look at it and

57:21

their big orange jumpsuit and everything works

57:24

fine. And you're like, I don't know,

57:26

I feel like Matt Ray has got

57:28

a battery. Matt Ray has always got

57:30

a battery tester or something. Not a

57:32

car one. You feel like somebody that

57:35

like isn't afraid to crack open the

57:37

hood and check what's going on in

57:39

there. Yeah, not so much anymore. Like,

57:41

I don't know. It's one of those

57:44

things like I decided the personal effort

57:46

wasn't worth it. So he doesn't even

57:48

want to manage it doesn't even want

57:50

to manage SSH keys, let alone car

57:52

That's right. That's right. There you go

57:55

Well, my my recommendation, you know, we

57:57

were talking about multi tools a while

57:59

ago and One of, I forget which

58:01

one, but one of the listeners suggested

58:03

this tiny pair of pliers that they

58:06

carry around and find useful. And I

58:08

have since procured some of these tiny

58:10

pliers. And I recommend them as, you

58:12

know, as a desk toy. I have

58:14

no practical use for this, but they're

58:16

very cute. They fit in your palm

58:18

and they're like those, I guess plumber

58:20

ones where you can like make the

58:22

mouth bigger. And boy, they feel like

58:24

they're really valuable and solidly made.

58:26

from some German tool company. So

58:28

I feel like I've got, I'm

58:31

going a little Bruce Sterling here,

58:33

but I feel like I'm enjoying some

58:35

piece of tools as art that I

58:37

have no practical use for except

58:39

for aesthetic enjoyment of it.

58:41

And it's the Nipex tiny ass

58:44

pliers. I don't think that's what they

58:46

should have named them, but just look

58:48

up Nipex Cobra and they're

58:50

quite enjoyable to have. Speaking

58:53

of things that are quite enjoyable

58:55

to have. Having had listened to.

58:57

software to Find Talk, podcast

59:00

episode number 514. That is

59:02

something nice to have, having had,

59:04

listened to it, which you have done.

59:06

So if you want to get the

59:08

show notes for this episode,

59:10

you can go to software

59:12

to Find Talk.com/514 and find

59:14

links to things we talked

59:16

about, all sorts of stuff

59:19

we didn't talk about, those conferences,

59:21

things you can do. And with

59:23

that, we'll see everyone next

59:25

time. Bye. Bye. Bye. getting my older

59:28

daughter to help me pronounce a Dutch word

59:30

the other day. And it was one of

59:32

those things where like, I said the word,

59:34

and then she was like, no, no, and

59:36

she said the word. And I was like,

59:38

we just said the same word. And then

59:41

we did that like 10 times and

59:43

went back and forth.