0:00

All right I've noticed a

0:02

new white collar knowledge worker

0:04

pattern and I've seen it for

0:06

a while but I think I've picked

0:08

up on it finally and that

0:10

is you know you're in a zoom

0:12

call or maybe teams I don't

0:14

know which one and then people

0:17

people people are writing

0:19

in the chat window while

0:21

people are talking and I used

0:23

to think that the chat was

0:25

kind of like you could ignore

0:28

it. and you don't need to be

0:30

involved in it, but it's finally clicked

0:32

in my head that what's actually

0:34

happening is instead of one

0:36

of the participants interrupting

0:38

someone talking, they're actually

0:41

interrupting in the chat. They're kind

0:43

of adding a comment there. Yeah. And

0:45

is this a behavior that you two have

0:47

observed? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know

0:50

you you say you're kind of saying

0:52

it like it's a bad thing. I

0:54

I think I kind of like it.

0:56

I think I want to just I

0:58

think I think it doesn't seem like

1:00

a bad thing like I think it's

1:02

okay because it plays on the like

1:04

you know there's a lot of people

1:06

I guess you could go on either

1:08

side you could be like we do

1:11

in a podcast where you just like

1:13

I want to make a point so

1:15

I'm going to keep talking

1:17

to the other people stop

1:20

talking. And that's a rock

1:22

solid production technique. But I

1:24

don't think that works in

1:27

normal discourse when you're supposedly

1:29

working with each other. And

1:32

so I guess this works because

1:34

the group as a whole

1:36

can see the comments. Now,

1:38

so that's fine, but it

1:40

made me realize what are

1:43

some other like chatroom behavior

1:45

things that I'm not picking

1:48

up on. Right, because I think this

1:50

is a pretty major like, like discourse thing,

1:52

right? You know, it's funny though is like

1:54

the person talking doesn't see the comments,

1:56

right? They're, they're busy talking, so they

1:59

can't. can't like focus and read at

2:01

the same time. So like, they're letting

2:03

you monologue over there and they're like,

2:05

you know what, we're gonna make some

2:07

side notes over here and sometimes it

2:10

just, you know, runs on and then

2:12

you, you know, finally stop, take a

2:14

breath and you're like, I wonder if

2:16

there are any comments and you look

2:19

back there like 15 posts, you know,

2:21

like, right, I mean, it's, it's pretty

2:23

much the same thing as like live

2:25

streaming like live streaming like live streaming.

2:27

and you like are watching the live

2:30

stream comments and you can choose to

2:32

ignore them, read them and do nothing

2:34

about it, or read them and respond

2:36

to them as you are doing the

2:38

streaming, right? And I don't, I've seen

2:41

all sorts of behavior, but maybe that's

2:43

the first thing to calibrate on is

2:45

if there is a primary and secondary

2:47

speaker in a conversation, when do they

2:49

know to have the chat? interrupt them

2:52

and derail them, right? Because that's the

2:54

problem in a white collar corporate meeting

2:56

is like interrupting is actually fine. It's

2:58

the derailing and you're like, we haven't

3:00

even moved past the cover slide yet.

3:03

Right. And so like, how do you

3:05

moderate that with the chat stuff? I

3:07

don't know. I think there is a

3:09

natural tone. I guess in a meeting

3:11

where it's collaboration going on, not just

3:14

a presentation. It's sort of, I think

3:16

there's a natural rhythm of you allow

3:18

someone to finish their point. in the

3:20

chat, you're allowing them to like flush

3:22

it out, not de-realing them, getting them

3:25

a chance to do it. And then

3:27

I think as you as a participant,

3:29

the meeting, sort of as that, if

3:31

you're, as you complete your thought, then

3:34

that's the natural time to look over

3:36

at the chat window. And then if

3:38

it's like a comment, the natural time

3:40

to look over at the chat window.

3:42

And then if it's like a comment

3:45

or a comment or a, you know,

3:47

the up for Q4, what do you

3:49

think Matt, Matt, Matt, and that's just

3:51

a natural. way to kind of keep

3:53

the information going. Yeah. So yeah, I

3:56

mean, I use it to like footnote

3:58

a comment. you know, the conversation on

4:00

screen where I don't want to interrupt,

4:02

but I'm going to make a point

4:04

to, you know, the conversation where, you

4:07

know, if we circle back to it,

4:09

that's fine, but this comment is for

4:11

the other people, but I'm not, I

4:13

don't feel like interrupting. So, you know,

4:15

a lot of times it's, you know,

4:18

direct messages or, you hop on a

4:20

call with, like, a third party and

4:22

you set up a private chat with

4:24

everybody on your side. at the same

4:26

time. So you know you guys have

4:29

a back channel while you know you're

4:31

talking in person and you're chatting on

4:33

the side. It's that's just part of

4:35

I don't know that's that's part of

4:37

the modern IT worker flow. I think

4:40

a great use is just annotating a

4:42

meeting as someone's talking about like yeah

4:44

as we went through next last time

4:46

and then someone throws in the link

4:49

it's sort of like someone's doing a

4:51

little work for you like oh yeah

4:53

here with the slides for last time

4:55

or if you're you're talking for last

4:57

time. Well, you know, I really like

5:00

Matt and Cotay, you know, why don't

5:02

you guys take that and figure that

5:04

out? And that would be spawn off

5:06

another chat. Then you guys would start

5:08

talking about it, maybe set up a

5:11

meeting. So it's sort of like, I

5:13

just, I don't know, I feel like,

5:15

you know, audio as we sit here,

5:17

as many people like to listen to

5:19

podcasts while they're doing something else. It's

5:22

like, okay, so I hadn't, I haven't

5:24

thought of that part, but the. The

5:26

annotating things that are happening taking notes.

5:28

I like that. That's interesting. That's it's

5:30

kind of like we used to have

5:33

a bot that would in our live

5:35

stream would tell you the weather and

5:37

our three geographies Which is a good

5:39

good checking on time now. That's just

5:41

making sure you don't have small talk

5:44

I've got a few follow-up questions here

5:46

and I feel like I'm getting excited

5:48

about this because I mean you know

5:50

longtime listeners and perhaps you two will

5:52

remember that I am not allowed to

5:55

wear boat shoes by dictate of the

5:57

corporate compliance officer until I'm like in

5:59

my late 60s or something. Or you're

6:01

on a boat? Maybe so. And so

6:03

the closer I get to being an

6:06

old person. like the more excited I

6:08

get because I'm going to finally wear

6:10

those boat shoes. So I feel like

6:12

I've got a lot of old person

6:15

questions about this new way of communicating

6:17

in the office place, right? And so

6:19

my first question that an old person

6:21

would have who wants to be, you

6:23

know, sensitive, fit in with things, I

6:26

don't want to offend the zolinials or

6:28

whatever, is like, so if I am

6:30

a primary in the meeting, is it

6:32

rude of me to ignore the chat?

6:34

Or do I have to engage with

6:37

it? It probably depends on the sort

6:39

of meeting it is, right? When you

6:41

have, you know, I don't know what

6:43

the threshold is, you know, maybe it's

6:45

a, if you have more than a

6:48

pizza team of people on the conversation,

6:50

like, it's becomes more of a presentation.

6:52

You can't really have a roundtable with,

6:54

you know, 10 people, but really it

6:56

kind of falls to like, there's probably

6:59

three primary people. and everyone else is

7:01

kind of you know bearing witness and

7:03

adding footnotes. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm

7:05

gonna say if it's more than one

7:07

pizza you can ignore it. Well exactly

7:10

exactly I mean because you realize like

7:12

when you have 10 people you know

7:14

that's too many people for a pizza

7:16

that everyone is not you're not expecting

7:18

everyone to have the same input right

7:21

it's just unrealistic. And so, you know,

7:23

the people having the primaries on the

7:25

conversation, they're talking to each other, the

7:27

chat becomes like the supplementary conversation, they

7:30

could, they could dip into it if

7:32

they want, or they could, you know,

7:34

they could ask like, you know, their,

7:36

you know, their lieutenant, hey, hey, anything

7:38

in the chat we need to stay

7:41

on top of? You know, or that

7:43

person can, can be kind of tasked

7:45

with like raising those issues, if they're,

7:47

if they're worthwhile. I like this so

7:49

so because one of the metaphors I'm

7:52

playing with here is is I feel

7:54

like the chat window is kind of

7:56

like the parking lot right you know

7:58

you're always like let's parking lot Yeah,

8:00

yeah, yeah. And then it's, and then

8:03

maybe there's an even longer term thing,

8:05

whatever chat window you ignore is like

8:07

the parking garage. It's just like long

8:09

term parking at the airport, you got

8:11

to drive a bus to get back

8:14

to it, like, you know, but it's

8:16

going to be affordable. You just, you

8:18

know, can ignore it totally. Which, okay,

8:20

this brings me my second final question

8:22

on this topic, even though, you know,

8:25

I could obviously go on. I want

8:27

to make sure I follow the decorum

8:29

of the chatter, right? Now, you know

8:31

me, I would be like, is there

8:33

a place I can type to express

8:36

my essence? And I will fill it,

8:38

right? And so there must be a

8:40

guideline for the brevity that you have

8:42

to have, because I would gladly write

8:45

up an essay and put it in

8:47

the chat. about my thoughts about what's

8:49

currently being said. But I know that's

8:51

wrong. So like, how do you triangulate?

8:53

Like, do I type a sentence? Is

8:56

three sentences too much? Like, what, how

8:58

much can I add in the parking

9:00

lot? I think two lines. I think

9:02

two lines. I think you just get

9:04

like, I'm just looking at my eyes

9:07

and my last needs. Just basically, maybe

9:09

that's two sentences, but just two lines

9:11

of text. That's all you're like, because

9:13

I don't, more on the positive side

9:15

is like the check can also be

9:18

unless the parking lot can also be

9:20

sort of like real-time facts much like

9:22

we use the software to find talk

9:24

chat where someone chimes in like we

9:26

can't remember something we say something wrong

9:29

if someone gives someone gives a quick

9:31

correction or I think someone gives a

9:33

quick correction or I think someone gives

9:35

a quick correction or they oh I

9:37

think you meant this right the benefit

9:40

to the let's call the primary in

9:42

the meeting it's like yeah you're talking

9:44

and you kind of like Maybe a

9:46

couple open issues making a couple points.

9:48

And I think what you said before

9:51

is something like that exists in corporate

9:53

America. It's like every meeting has a

9:55

hierarchy. So it's like if you're not

9:57

the top of the hierarchy, you know,

10:00

putting some stuff in the chat is.

10:02

probably a decent way to go. And

10:04

if it is truly something that everyone

10:06

needs to hear, then of course, by

10:08

all means, speak up and get it

10:11

right. Now there is something I wanted

10:13

to get your take on cook day

10:15

is for those of us in the

10:17

world of teams, there's the idea of

10:19

like once the meeting ends, the chat

10:22

persists, right? That's like a big thing

10:24

in teams like that just always sits

10:26

out there. So, you know, like the

10:28

meeting never, if you will, officially ends,

10:30

it sort of times out like after

10:33

like a week goes by. and if

10:35

it's not a regular meeting that chat

10:37

sort of like flows to the bottom

10:39

but like you can also like you

10:41

often see I often see the phenomenon

10:44

of like a meeting ends and then

10:46

be a flurry of things in the

10:48

chat like you know oh here's the

10:50

link here's this oh I meant to

10:52

say this so it's kind of interesting

10:55

I don't feel like that happens in

10:57

a zoom as much but that's sort

10:59

of interesting I don't know if it's

11:01

a feature or bug of teams but

11:03

it is a like something that exists

11:06

that's like it's like and like the

11:08

concept of like a like like a

11:10

long running thread as we have in

11:12

our slack available at software to find

11:15

talk if I remember that you can

11:17

join but like I can see because

11:19

I have I haven't counted some interesting

11:21

I don't know deficiencies in corporate life

11:23

that you're kind of in the same

11:26

area of where a lot of times

11:28

you start a chat with a couple

11:30

of people right. And then that should

11:32

just be like its own long live

11:34

chat instead of these three people I'm

11:37

talking with. But at least in my

11:39

work environment, people aren't very good at

11:41

knowing when to change a hallway conversation

11:43

into like a permanent silo. To use

11:45

your old, you remember a stock versus

11:48

silo Brandon? That was a good metaphor.

11:50

Yeah, I don't know. But okay, so

11:52

I, what I'm hearing is two things.

11:54

in my my near near the boat

11:56

shoe arrow of my life. I've got

11:59

it. There's still some. some things I

12:01

got to adapt to. One, if I'm

12:03

speaking in a in a work meeting,

12:05

I should kind of boot up some

12:07

of my podcast live stream stuff and

12:10

acknowledge and engage with the chat that

12:12

I'm seeing there, right? It depends on

12:14

the size of the meeting. Right, for

12:16

one to two pizza meetings, cool. If

12:18

we're like working at like a Brazilian

12:21

steakhouse buffet situation, not good. Right, like,

12:23

I'm not, I'm not sure what that

12:25

means, but, well, you know, you got

12:27

a Brazilian steakhouse, but they have multiple

12:29

buffets. They're giant. They serve a lot

12:32

of people, right? Yeah. You know, imagine

12:34

the Gaddy Town Pizza Place. A webinar,

12:36

is that what you're describing? Where the,

12:38

where the, where the, the, the, the,

12:41

the, the, An annoying side of this

12:43

is when you are in a big

12:45

town hall meeting and the chats are

12:47

just basically like a bunch of emogies

12:49

of hearts and things like that. Oh

12:52

yes. Those are fantastic. Or even better,

12:54

when you're not in the time zone

12:56

when the meeting occurred and you're in

12:58

the channel and you wake up and

13:00

there's like 800 post and some random

13:03

channel and it's that, it's the play-by-play

13:05

of a meeting you weren't in. You

13:07

know, reading through that, that's always something.

13:09

Right right it'd be like listening to

13:11

a like a baseball broadcast that Ronald

13:14

Reagan read in the well 1938 Exactly

13:16

so so if you are a zoom

13:18

or teams product manager I guess gong

13:20

maybe My product marketing or product management

13:22

recommendation is you know how they make

13:25

those summaries and transcripts of the meetings?

13:27

Please annotate the transcript with chat because

13:29

right now. They're just disconnected right you've

13:31

got your chat you get that download

13:33

and you're like, what are these messages?

13:36

You know, and then you have a

13:38

transcript, which is good, because that was

13:40

the surface of the meeting. But if

13:42

you could like integrate the chat with

13:44

time stamps. maybe call it out like,

13:47

oh, this is, this comment was made

13:49

while they were talking. Oh, yeah, yeah.

13:51

Some basic, you'd say a little pop-up

13:53

video, a little pop-up video is like,

13:56

best chat, is it, like, you know,

13:58

as it's just throwing up, because he

14:00

wants to say it, and I'm just

14:02

saying, you know, that every chat deserves

14:04

a, a highlight, you just want the

14:07

good ones. And somebody who assumes meetings

14:09

after the fact, I would like, the

14:11

past 25 years of annotating the internet

14:13

skills that I have. Absolutely. To every

14:15

corporate meeting that I'm in. Yes. Both

14:18

shoes be banned. I can be like,

14:20

have you seen the bookmarks I've tagged

14:22

for the last 25 years on this

14:24

topic? No? Here's a link. You're like,

14:26

let me introduce you to Delicious. Here's

14:29

five newsletter editions I've written about this.

14:31

One of them dating back to 2002.

14:33

Also, there was that, here's a YouTube

14:35

short of Brandon telling me about product

14:37

marketing that I think would be useful

14:40

here. All right, well, speaking of talking

14:42

about product marketing, it looks like IBM,

14:44

good time to check in with them,

14:46

they closed the Hashie Corp acquisition, so

14:48

I think they're going to be terraforming

14:51

everything, everything's handled there, and also they

14:53

announced they were buying data stacks, and

14:55

every time there's a company that has

14:57

the word data stacks or box in

14:59

it. Yeah, I'll start. You're like IBM's

15:02

going to be there. They're in the

15:04

they're in the mix. You got some

15:06

data. You got some boxes. IBM. Right.

15:08

You know, I have to like sort

15:11

out because because what do we got?

15:13

We got data stacks, data blocks, data

15:15

blocks, but this is the Cassandra one

15:17

if I remember. Yes. But I think,

15:19

you know, it doesn't, and I guess

15:22

the other thing that popped up here

15:24

was, although this is one of these

15:26

things I thought was already done, Hashi

15:28

Corp was officially the acquisition closed. So,

15:30

you know, I think it kind of

15:33

comes back to one of these things,

15:35

it's like. I don't mean in the

15:37

spirit of just sort of like, I

15:39

don't know, trying to be more positive.

15:41

It's sort of like, I just feel

15:44

like this is just like, this is

15:46

the IBM role. You know, this is

15:48

what you do. You, like these companies

15:50

get big enough. Nobody wants to deal

15:52

with too many vendors. IBM has a

15:55

global sales force. It has a lot

15:57

of technology. It writes a lot of

15:59

ELA's. These companies have gotten to a

16:01

point that they're. They don't necessarily want

16:03

to continue to grow that side. Kind

16:06

of, if you will, the boring part

16:08

of software, growing enterprise sales and doing

16:10

all of, you know, the contracts and

16:12

things like that. So it just seems

16:14

like, I don't know, I just feel

16:17

like this is sort of like, you

16:19

know, it's almost like IBM, a good

16:21

private equity, a good place for people

16:23

to go and, and, you know, sort

16:26

of roll out for different companies. I

16:28

don't know, like, I do. This is

16:30

kind of what the world wants. This

16:32

is kind of what people are serving

16:34

a purpose. Yeah, so one, yeah, that

16:37

was my, that was my, my general

16:39

takeaway is, yeah, this seems like the

16:41

IBM that I know, and maybe to

16:43

build on the metaphor, it's not so

16:45

much that's a retirement home, it's the

16:48

suburbs. Like you know you live in

16:50

a glass house condo in town you

16:52

know you're doing your thing you're young

16:54

and virile like just just spending money

16:56

right and left waking up hung over

16:59

every morning and then eventually you're like

17:01

you're like that you like that Kevin

17:03

Bacon in that movie I can't remember

17:05

on a plane platform somewhere having a

17:07

kid everything's cool you know the suburbs.

17:10

Was that the one where we're? Was

17:12

that like she's having a baby or

17:14

something? Oh see I was going to

17:16

go with. was a stir of echoes

17:18

when there was a dead body in

17:21

his his basement but sure whatever I

17:23

don't know how to look that one

17:25

up is very young Kevin Bacon yeah

17:27

this was uh anyway before we go

17:29

down that tension I I kind of

17:32

think it more of like a like

17:34

a gated community slash assisted living right

17:36

because like you're still going for it

17:38

yeah yeah yeah I mean It's you're

17:41

not quite, you know, you're not quite

17:43

in a arrest home, right? But a

17:45

lot of the stuff you don't want

17:47

to deal with is dealt with, right?

17:49

You've got an HOA that they've got

17:52

a big gate on the front to

17:54

make sure that you don't have to

17:56

deal with everybody. You know, they're keeping

17:58

the lawns all the same, and they

18:00

probably have yard crews come out. Maybe

18:03

there's a golf course in the back,

18:05

you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

18:07

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a slower,

18:09

it's a slower, it's a slower, it's

18:11

a slower pace, it's a slower pace,

18:14

it's a slower pace, it's a slower

18:16

pace, it's a slower pace, it's a

18:18

slower pace, it's a slower pace, it's

18:20

a slower pace, it's a slower pace,

18:22

it's a slower pace, it's a slower

18:25

pace, it's a slower pace, it's a

18:27

slower pace, you know, but it's not

18:29

like a nursing home or whatever, right?

18:31

There's no nurse ratchet, you know, making

18:33

you take your pills. It's still just

18:36

kind of like, it's chill, but, but

18:38

you know what, it doesn't have a

18:40

lot of individuality, right? That IBM, that

18:42

big blue HOA is just stamping that

18:44

stuff out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But,

18:47

but so I think, I don't know,

18:49

I think that I think that assessment's

18:51

good Brandon. It's basically this is. This

18:53

is the IBM. They kind of worked

18:56

out the smart cities and kind of

18:58

like intelligent Watson stuff. They've kind of

19:00

shifted it down to just like, we

19:02

have a portfolio of IT stuff. Right.

19:04

But I do think the thing that's

19:07

interesting is they do always like this

19:09

recent announcement says like, you know, it's

19:11

going to complement IBM's Watson X dot

19:13

data. And it's always one of these

19:15

things where it's like. I feel like

19:18

if they just left that part out

19:20

and they just said you know like

19:22

it's it does it always has to

19:24

be wrapped up in like another IBM

19:26

brand and it's just sort I don't

19:29

know I just feel like there's something

19:31

more intellectually honest and it was just

19:33

like we have a great sales and

19:35

marketing machine that people like to buy

19:37

from you have a company where you've

19:40

gotten to the point like you don't

19:42

want to continue to do the enterprise

19:44

stuff anymore just come over here and

19:46

we'll do that for you. We don't

19:48

have to wrap it in any like

19:51

Watson thing or anything like that. It's

19:53

just like, I don't know, I just

19:55

feel like it's it's like a Costco

19:57

kind of feeling. It's like you have

19:59

products that people want. You don't want

20:02

to build. the website, give us a

20:04

good deal, we'll put it on the

20:06

pallets, people will buy your vitamins, we'll

20:08

buy your sporting clothes, they'll buy your

20:10

name brands. It's all gonna be here.

20:13

We can help you do that. And

20:15

like we go to Costco, it's not

20:17

like Costco's trying to like tell you

20:19

they revolutionize anything. They're like, we have

20:22

all the stuff, it's pretty cheap. You'll

20:24

like it. That's that's and that's good.

20:26

I don't know. I just think that's

20:28

like a value proposition that people like

20:30

want to run away from and it's

20:33

like I think that's a good value

20:35

proposition though. Yeah this is a good

20:37

a good metaphor to explore because I

20:39

think it I was I was thinking

20:41

sometime this week about the the the

20:44

in the infrastructure tech world just the

20:46

integrated platform pitch as as people could

20:48

imagine I would be right and like

20:50

it's not like compelling. Like for whatever

20:52

the better way of saying sexy. That

20:55

assumes that enterprise IT somewhere is compelling.

20:57

And and but but your metaphor is

20:59

apt right like when when Costco brings

21:01

in like let's say the now we're

21:03

selling the hefty trash bags that have

21:06

like name brand hefty bags. They've got

21:08

that great drawstring and this is going

21:10

to integrate perfectly with. One of our

21:12

customers' favorite products, the wide format Costco

21:14

Serran Wrap with built-in slicer. And you're

21:17

just like, no, I just want to

21:19

buy some fucking garbage bags. Right? Yeah.

21:21

Yeah. And you want to look, but

21:23

I think you hit it right, because

21:25

I think that Costco feeling is what

21:28

I'm like, you just want to know,

21:30

like, these brands are good. The buyers

21:32

at Costco are good. IBM usually acquires

21:34

companies that have like a good profile,

21:37

good technology that's widely used. And it's

21:39

just like, hey, it's just a great

21:41

place to buy the software that you

21:43

probably need. That's all you need. You

21:45

don't have to like, you don't have

21:48

to do anything else special. It's okay.

21:50

I've got this long-term ula called the

21:52

Costco membership. I'm not going to cancel

21:54

that, right? I'm going to go there.

21:56

and hang out with the reps in

21:59

the red vest, get myself a hot

22:01

dog, kind of walk the halls. That's

22:03

kind of a reverse enterprise sales thing.

22:05

Like, you know, the customer is walking

22:07

the halls instead of the reps walking

22:10

the halls. And, you know, just if

22:12

you got what I need, I'm gonna

22:14

buy it. What do you want? Right?

22:16

And I don't really care about the

22:18

price. I just want to know I'm

22:21

not getting fucked. But I'll pay more

22:23

than like, yeah, like, otherwise I'd be

22:25

a Sam's member or not a member

22:27

of anywhere and shop at like College.

22:29

So what is Sam's in this metaphor?

22:32

I would think Sam's is like Oracle.

22:34

That's like the Oracle place. I was

22:36

going to spot a lot of stuff.

22:38

I was going to go. I was

22:40

going to go. Go ahead. No, no,

22:43

no, Oracle. I mean, if Oracle had

22:45

a larger services arm that was more

22:47

rapacious, sure sure. Sure. I don't know.

22:49

Costco is just, it's where, and I

22:52

really do think the mainframe, I want

22:54

to tie to the gasoline, right? It's

22:56

like, well, we got to get gas.

22:58

We're going to Costco anyway. Why don't

23:00

like, we're already locked in getting gas

23:03

there. Why not walk around? What else?

23:05

Who knows? Maybe I need a TV,

23:07

maybe I need an ERP system, maybe

23:09

I need some Apache Cassandra. I don't

23:11

know. I'll just go on there and

23:14

get it. the Costco liquor store is

23:16

an open source because you don't have

23:18

to be a member to shop there.

23:20

Oh, true. That is a good, that's

23:22

a good. I think maybe the Costco

23:25

liquor store is, you know, there's certain

23:27

skews you have an enterprise software that

23:29

you're not really supposed to tell people

23:31

about, but you only tell people about

23:33

if they ask if they're like, hey,

23:36

I only want to buy Cassandra. I

23:38

don't want to buy an app server

23:40

right and you and then you know

23:42

you have a few more meetings you

23:44

eat a hot dog maybe a slice

23:47

of pizza and then you're like okay

23:49

okay come over to this store over

23:51

here right like you still got that

23:53

data stack sales crew I'd like to

23:55

buy some yeah you can buy if

23:58

you want to buy some liquor but

24:00

like you don't want the word to

24:02

get out that anyone can go to

24:04

the Costco liquor store right like it's

24:07

just sort of like a you know

24:09

maybe maybe if you have that like

24:11

Gartner technology professional subscription and you read

24:13

to the 62 page paper like you

24:15

can find this or if you do

24:18

an inquiry with your your personal shopper

24:20

at Gartner they'll tell you this but

24:22

normal people wouldn't know you're not gonna

24:24

read about it on the news stack

24:26

or anything like that. Do your get-commits

24:29

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24:31

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24:59

I don't do a lot of the

25:01

using the AI in your coding and

25:04

your ID stuff, but I think over

25:06

the past three weeks or three or

25:08

four weeks, there's been a lot of

25:10

AI companies and like even Google coming

25:13

in here and there, like there's been

25:15

a lot going on as far as

25:17

like, let's have the AI companies. It

25:19

feels like they've got some like slide

25:22

decks that are basically like, what if

25:24

we took over all of programming? and

25:26

put that in our TAM. And like,

25:28

I think, I think Claude has like,

25:31

is Claude the one that has an

25:33

operator thing or is that open AI

25:35

or something like that? Like, maybe they're

25:37

looking at like a person. And Tropic

25:40

is the one that's made the most

25:42

noise about it. And I think they

25:44

generally are considered to have the best

25:46

model for software development. Not being, I

25:49

think the new release of 3.7, Claude

25:51

3.7 is supposed to be even better.

25:53

And it now has, you can do

25:55

everything from. what you want to do

25:58

and it will just imagine. if you

26:00

will set up and build your

26:02

entire project for you. So Claude

26:04

seems to be the front runner,

26:06

if you will, and let's call

26:08

it software development.

26:11

And then, I mean, I haven't done

26:13

enough like coding with an AI to

26:15

think about it, but does that

26:17

work Brandon? Could you just say,

26:20

set up the project for me

26:22

and then load up like the

26:24

Claude desktop thing and like? start programming?

26:26

Absolutely. I think, you know, I've already mentioned it

26:28

a million times, like, I think cursor is the

26:30

best UI, so like, I mean, certainly the, the,

26:32

either, you know, it's interesting, Claude's kind of done everything

26:34

from the command line, so that's cool. I mean, I

26:36

get that part, but like, the obvious, you know, and

26:38

if you look, use cursor, you can switch out the

26:40

models. They basically let you pick which which model, which

26:42

model, so there's some, some, some, some useful, some useful,

26:44

some useful there some useful there, some useful there, some

26:46

useful there, some useful there, some useful there, some useful

26:49

there, some useful there, but I mean, some useful there,

26:51

but I mean, but I mean, one of your old

26:53

good friends here, Kote wrote James Governor over

26:55

at Redmont. So he's kind of making the

26:57

point that really all, you know, I think

26:59

his one thing that was was kind of

27:01

funny for a long time. It was just

27:03

like, you know, you learned E Max, you

27:05

learned VI, you know, you picked your religion

27:07

and you know, that's that's what you did

27:09

forever. And then over time, maybe you picked

27:11

some of these different IDs, but things have

27:13

been pretty stable. But I think this point

27:15

here was sort of like this point here

27:18

was sort of like, people are going to

27:20

do this going forward, whether it is kind

27:22

of a command line thing, because certainly

27:24

you can do that with claw, just

27:26

kind of tell it what you want,

27:28

it will build out, you know, the

27:30

entire project, or you can do something

27:33

more like cursor, which is sort of

27:35

like you kind of watching what it

27:37

does, which is what I like, because

27:39

it kind of gives, because it kind

27:41

of gives, because I'm learning about what

27:44

it is, what's happening, is... Definitely

27:46

been very helpful, but you can definitely make the

27:48

argument like maybe the next step here is kind

27:50

of lights out right lights out programming I mean,

27:52

I'm not there yet I haven't seen it do

27:54

that because it still makes enough mistakes that you

27:56

have to like tell it to do something differently

27:58

But you know if you believe in this AGI

28:00

or things going forward that like, yeah,

28:02

absolutely, all of this could be autonomous.

28:04

I don't know, Matt, what has your

28:06

experience been? I definitely not ready for

28:09

lights out, lights out coding, but the,

28:11

what I've kind of been thinking about

28:13

with all these different IDEs and, you

28:15

know, the plugable AI models is what's

28:17

kind of happened is. VSCode kind of

28:19

became the chrome of IDEs, right? Everybody

28:22

uses the same engine and then they

28:24

wrap it with like their workflows there,

28:26

you know, scans, you know, what their

28:28

business models. And, you know, so as

28:30

long as you're mostly familiar with VSCode

28:32

as a style, you can, you know,

28:35

drop in between these things and figure

28:37

out which, which flow works best for

28:39

you. I think it's a matter of

28:41

time before, you know, it's not, I'm

28:43

hesitant to go for the the lights

28:45

out coding model, but more and more

28:48

of the lifting being done for you

28:50

and you would become kind of an

28:52

overseer, you know, you're, you become a

28:54

product manager for your IDE where you're

28:56

like, yeah, okay, I want you to

28:58

do a little more testing over here,

29:01

you know, can you tighten up these

29:03

inputs and. developers are going to become

29:05

product managers whether they like it or

29:07

not. I kind of feel like another

29:09

metaphor is thinking about like editor right

29:11

because I think that's more from writing

29:14

but like I don't know maybe it's

29:16

just like a personality type like I

29:18

really like that I really like that

29:20

I like seeing stuff and making edits

29:22

to it versus having to go through

29:24

and like try to catch all the

29:27

grammatical errors the same thing with like

29:29

I like when like the four loops

29:31

and the wild loops and all that

29:33

stuff is kind of written you know

29:35

for you know for you and you

29:37

know it's It's just because I don't

29:40

have to remember how to do it

29:42

all correctly and it's sort of like,

29:44

it just allows me to, I guess

29:46

all of this comes back to, it

29:48

allows me to like work at the

29:50

level of abstraction that I feel very

29:53

natural at, you know, and I guess

29:55

that's. person by person I think some

29:57

people love to write and write grammatically

29:59

correct perfect pros very quickly I think

30:01

some people do that on the coding

30:04

side they can like write you know

30:06

whatever a function as quick as that

30:08

as AI can do it so maybe

30:10

that's just sort of like where the

30:12

friction area is like what like what

30:14

level of abstraction do you personally like

30:17

to work at and then how does

30:19

AI change that for me I just

30:21

find it like It really balances where

30:23

I want to be. I don't know,

30:25

Coach, you're the writer here. Like, what

30:27

do you, what do you think? You

30:30

know, I feel like we talked about

30:32

this obliquely before, but there is, it's

30:34

always nice to have a name for

30:36

something, but there is that, we'll say

30:38

layer of abstraction that you're comfortable with.

30:40

Like, but I'm not supposed to do

30:43

that? like you're supposed to write the

30:45

thing on its own but similarly with

30:47

the programmer like to think about it

30:49

another way like when when I don't

30:51

do programming anymore but every time I

30:53

try to go like figure out how

30:56

to do something in Ruby or Python

30:58

I'm like but yeah where's the code

31:00

that actually does stuff right like it's

31:02

like all this code that just like

31:04

makes these method calls that rely on

31:06

something else whereas like and then you

31:09

even look at you know my current

31:11

workplace is thing that the spring framework

31:13

and you look at the way spring

31:15

is nowadays and you're like I don't

31:17

two lines of code and now I

31:19

have a web application like what is

31:22

happening here and so there is that

31:24

like whatever this line is like you

31:26

want to know what's happening to make

31:28

you want to know what's happening right

31:30

below the surface and you might even

31:32

want to write it yourself so like

31:35

with regular writing you know I guess

31:37

the equivalent is if you're in these

31:39

very this very high level abstraction you

31:41

could say like I've got an idea

31:43

about IBM. They're just like a Costco

31:45

of IT and like it's fine. Can

31:48

you write me something on that? And

31:50

like, there's probably some programming languages that

31:52

are kind of the equivalent of that.

31:54

Like, I need a web application that

31:56

has a text box, and when I

31:58

click submit, it saves it to a

32:01

database. And you can kind of, that's

32:03

like what a rails app is, if

32:05

I remember. And so like, whatever that

32:07

line is, probably is pretty situational and

32:09

personal to what people are doing. And

32:12

the higher it is, the more fucked

32:14

IDEs are. I'd like to start a

32:16

little lower because I feel like it

32:18

kind of gives me a foundation for

32:20

understanding when I have to come back

32:22

and debug. You know, my expectation is

32:25

when I write something, I'm going to

32:27

revisit it later. And so I don't

32:29

want to just like, you know, splat

32:31

it out and never come back. Well,

32:33

I would like that, but chances are

32:35

good. You're going to come back and

32:38

need to refine it. So I want

32:40

to watch it. you can watch it

32:42

or you know actually implement it at

32:44

a lower level initially and then you

32:46

know build up that that muscle of

32:48

you know oh i've gone through the

32:51

the basics of you know parsing seal

32:53

i arguments and and getting my logic

32:55

in place and now that i have

32:57

a good feel for how this is

32:59

all laid out i can come back

33:01

in and say okay now that i

33:04

need to add this and i can

33:06

trust all that other stuff has been

33:08

done and i was familiar enough with

33:10

it at the time that nobody's gonna

33:12

go back and mess with that stuff

33:14

because it's fine and I feel like

33:17

it gives me a better foundation. So

33:19

but I think all of that makes

33:21

sense and I guess what I've been

33:23

thinking about going forward and this is

33:25

where the the James Governor article came

33:27

into it is like this is more

33:30

the business side is like is this

33:32

the place where you could because for

33:34

longest time right cannot make any money

33:36

with developer tools right and it's like

33:38

I wonder two things one like certainly

33:40

people are paying for cursor right at

33:43

the moment and then two going forward

33:45

like Is this going to be something

33:47

people pay for? And if not, is

33:49

this something that's good to like, oh.

33:51

kind of like, you know, like, Matt,

33:53

you're saying before, VS code is sort

33:56

of the default, you know, if you

33:58

will skin for all of these things.

34:00

So is that valuable to Microsoft? So

34:02

it's like, like Google and cursor and

34:04

all these people kind of rolling out

34:06

different tools, like, you know, Cote for

34:09

you, like put on your old, you

34:11

know, strategy hat, like, is winning in

34:13

this area, like, actually useful, or is

34:15

it just going to be like, sure,

34:17

that's going to be like sure, that's

34:19

great, you won, you won, you won,

34:22

you want, but there's, you know, you

34:24

know, you know, you know, you know,

34:26

you know, you know, you know, you

34:28

know, you know, you know, you know,

34:30

you know, you know, you know, you

34:33

know, you know, you know, you know,

34:35

you know, you know, you know, you

34:37

know, you know, you know, you know,

34:39

benefit to, you know, you know Like

34:41

winning in the AI is writing code

34:43

for you area? Yeah, or like yeah,

34:46

so you become the preferred platform that

34:48

everyone uses to like, if you will,

34:50

write, write the code, which implicitly means

34:52

they're using your AI engine behind the

34:54

scenes to do it. Like is that

34:56

like a good winnable? Like if I

34:59

said to like a business CEO, I

35:01

was like, we won this, would they

35:03

be like, great? Or they'd be like,

35:05

hmm, I don't think we can make

35:07

any money on that. Yeah, I don't

35:09

think we can make any money on

35:12

that we can make any money on

35:14

that. right like you can download your

35:16

own models and run it but basically

35:18

like all that kind of functionality is

35:20

like all the stuff you would do

35:22

would be valuable like you couldn't do

35:25

for free like and eventually you would

35:27

end up running it as you know

35:29

you'd want to use it use the

35:31

service version of it or like even

35:33

if you hosted on your own but

35:35

I think I think we're long past

35:38

the generation long past maybe five years

35:40

like the generation we're like people found

35:42

infrastructure that is susceptible to being used

35:44

for free, right? Like I mean, there's

35:46

all sorts of little weird things here

35:48

and there, but like the amount of

35:51

effort it would take to like make

35:53

free versions of that versus just like

35:55

$20 a month or whatever you want

35:57

to charge, like would be great, let

35:59

alone integrating it into the whole like

36:01

tool chain that you have, right? And

36:04

I don't think so. I mean, I

36:06

think if you look at what it

36:08

developers do, they write code, they make

36:10

open source, they don't like paying for

36:12

things. I think that, you know, everyone's

36:14

gonna find that they have, you know,

36:17

a decently strong AI compatible, you know,

36:19

machine on their desktop, you know, Apple

36:21

Intelligence or the like, that if you

36:23

have a framework that provides a lot

36:25

of scaffolding and saying defaults for languages

36:27

can do a lot of heavy lifting

36:30

for you, and then I don't know,

36:32

you pull down half a get hub

36:34

and turn it into your training model,

36:36

like, That doesn't sound like too much

36:38

of a stretch to be an open

36:40

source baseline that just kind of keeps

36:43

raising the water level for yeah oh

36:45

you want to knock out a Python

36:47

web app you don't have to pay

36:49

for that you know we've that that's

36:51

something your ID you should do for

36:54

free I mean I mean like it's

36:56

I I guess the theory I would

36:58

have is that it's technically feasible and

37:00

then the question I would have would

37:02

be more cultural is like do the

37:04

kids still want to give their shit

37:07

away for free Right? Because like, someone

37:09

has to do all of that work

37:11

and then open source it, just kind

37:13

of like haphazardly, or has like the

37:15

20 to 30 year old programmer culture

37:17

evolved with a like, I want to

37:20

make money, right? Like, like, I don't

37:22

know where that balance is nowadays, so

37:24

it's difficult to say. But that's the

37:26

thing. It doesn't take a lot of

37:28

open source developers to keep. raising the

37:30

water levels. I mean, you know, open

37:33

sources is not a huge number of

37:35

people. I mean, it is, but, you

37:37

know, when it's something as popular as

37:39

an IDE, you know, that actually has

37:41

a lot of open source eyes on

37:43

it and a lot of open source

37:46

hands. And so I think we're in

37:48

a gold rush for, you know, AI

37:50

IDE development right now, but I also

37:52

think like, you know, Come come you

37:54

know 1889 people aren't going to be

37:56

going to California for for the gold

37:59

rush They're going to be going because

38:01

there's a lot of people already there

38:03

and and you know, it has other

38:05

things available to it. So I think,

38:07

yeah, you know, maybe, maybe the lights

38:09

out coding model is the future for

38:12

AI. And yeah, that's going to be

38:14

commercialish, you know, for a long time.

38:16

But I think if you think that

38:18

the basics of AI, IDE stuff has

38:20

a long term life, I don't think

38:22

it does. Well, and I think history

38:25

definitely would agree with you because we

38:27

all can name of like many IDEs,

38:29

they kind of flow with different languages,

38:31

like Java comes up, there's like a.

38:33

a whole bunch of those businesses and

38:35

then they slowly, you know, kind of

38:38

like die off over time. But it

38:40

does kind of raise the question I

38:42

think is interesting here is that, you

38:44

know, so if that is true, then

38:46

like why for every evolution do people

38:48

keep fighting over this? Because there's like,

38:51

you know, Microsoft has a solution, Google

38:53

has a solution. Well, because you make

38:55

money during the gold rush. I don't

38:57

know, but like, somebody's making money. you

38:59

know just like every few years would

39:01

just be like was it net beans

39:04

I can't remember which one it was

39:06

there'd be like another ID you know

39:08

it's like or maybe even son I

39:10

can't remember which I did someone like

39:12

eclipse yeah so eclipse and that means

39:15

like somebody would always be fighting over

39:17

this and it's sort of like and

39:19

it's always like why are you fighting

39:21

is there anything to win here right

39:23

but it does seem to like technology

39:25

technology companies I guess want to fight

39:28

over this area whether or not it's

39:30

ever really been valuable I mean, there's

39:32

always Intelijet, right? That's the one commercial

39:34

ID that's existed forever, that's not like

39:36

open source. But like, I guess I'm

39:38

thinking you have like less so the

39:41

IDE than like all that stuff underneath

39:43

it that's doing the magic, right? And

39:45

but your question was, do you have

39:47

to own the ID for it? And

39:49

yeah, I don't know. Like another way

39:51

of analyzing it is to say like,

39:54

well, who doesn't have an ID? Everyone

39:56

else except Microsoft doesn't make one. I

39:58

mean, overstating it, but like, I guess

40:00

that would suggest that like, maybe at

40:02

the annual meeting of all programming or

40:04

related tech companies, someone like, they do

40:07

play musical chairs and they're like, you

40:09

own this for the next decade, sucker.

40:11

Who doesn't have their own, you know,

40:13

browser engine? Yeah, right? There's one. There's

40:15

two, you know, there's, you know, Mozilla.

40:17

I guess Apple has an ID, right.

40:20

They have, they have their, their, their,

40:22

their X code thing. You know, but

40:24

Safari uses. You know everybody's on webkit

40:26

except for you know Mozilla and his

40:28

brave on webkit I mean I think

40:30

like that's the de facto and so

40:33

you know you've got this VS code

40:35

that is everywhere everyone's like runs with

40:37

that and they don't worry about you

40:39

know they don't worry about the webkit

40:41

of IDEs. Well, I think maybe the

40:43

way to think about this going forward,

40:46

I guess the fun thing for us

40:48

all to watch, I think, is clearly

40:50

cursor, right? They're a company exclusively doing

40:52

this, they're doing well, they've raised a

40:54

lot of money. So if you believe

40:56

it's going to be successful, or there's

40:59

going to be money to be money,

41:01

I think they're the one to invest

41:03

in. And then in a few months

41:05

or years, if we see, cursor is

41:07

acquired for a small sum of money

41:09

by a large technology company, technology company,

41:12

we will end the cycle. there was

41:14

no big money in inside Curser and

41:16

there was no big money in ID.

41:18

So that'll be an easy way to

41:20

kind of see what happens in this

41:22

space. I think the real opportunity, Matt

41:25

Ray, is you should go to your

41:27

E Max friends and be like the

41:29

Windows open. We could bring it back.

41:31

We're back baby. Well, you know, they

41:33

definitely make it so you can plug

41:36

in AI stuff into it. But yeah,

41:38

it's it's not as nice. I mean,

41:40

maybe if the whole whiz thing doesn't

41:42

work out. The E Max people could

41:44

hire you could hire you. to be

41:46

the Devrel that makes the difference for

41:49

the EMX ID. I think that might

41:51

be good. Just imagine you could go

41:53

to a conference and you could be

41:55

like, now I just showed you had

41:57

a program in 15 different programs. programming

41:59

languages. Let me show you how to

42:02

make a gant chart out of asking.

42:04

Yes, you know, it's like how many

42:06

of you have coded an e-list? Oh,

42:08

not a lot of hands. Having to

42:10

keep on going anyways and show you

42:12

some e-list. Well, you know, we should

42:15

mention briefly before we get to other

42:17

stuff. Skype is being shut down. We

42:19

used to record lots of episodes on

42:21

Skype. I think every podcast out there

42:23

who's older than five months old. It's

42:25

probably like Skype. love that thing. It

42:28

was great. It was a major part

42:30

of our life. So, uh, good job

42:32

Skype. You did it. Like, it's good

42:34

stuff. Now, speaking of things that you

42:36

did. No, no, eulogy for chime. Well,

42:38

I guess, I have an experienced chime.

42:41

I think I actually use it a

42:43

few times. Probably great. You know, good,

42:45

good job. Goodbye. Yeah. You know, you

42:47

know, something people would like to say

42:49

goodbye to Brandon. in their life is

42:51

bureaucracy. But we always have some each

42:54

episode. What is it this episode? Well,

42:56

we had a lot of good feedback

42:58

on multi-tools from our, I guess, two

43:00

episodes ago. So one, Haysus, I think,

43:02

summarized it best. He says the multi-tool.

43:04

The tool to reach for when the

43:07

inconvenience of getting the proper tool is

43:09

greater than the inconvenience of using the

43:11

multi-toll. And I thought that was the

43:13

perfect description of the multi-toll. I won't

43:15

read them all out. made a recommendation

43:17

of a multi-tool Michael had a recommendation

43:20

and our own Matt Ray came in

43:22

with what did you recommend the Swiss

43:24

tech utility key six and one so

43:26

if you would like more recommendations and

43:28

multi tools and weren't even recommended one

43:30

that doesn't have a knife so it's

43:33

like TSA friendly which I think is

43:35

funny there's like a new category of

43:37

multi tools that don't that can get

43:39

through an airport but anyway if you

43:41

like to read more about the various

43:44

multi tools because it was quite a

43:46

bit of discussion you should join the

43:48

software to find talk slack there you

43:50

can get in there and and recommend

43:52

your own multi tool if you will

43:54

and then also Also, Kote, I wanted

43:57

to go all the way back to

43:59

one of the interviews you did on

44:01

your software to find interviews podcast. And

44:03

please help me with the name here.

44:05

Was with, is it Marina and what's

44:07

his last name? And he said the

44:10

following and I just, and everyone should

44:12

go back and listen to the podcast.

44:14

But here's a quote I pulled from

44:16

the interview that I thought was worth

44:18

discussing at least for a moment. It

44:20

says quote, service mesh was built by

44:23

developers to solve a problem that was

44:25

solved many times before the people. This

44:27

is my own little, I'm substituting it,

44:29

at developers. One of these problems solved,

44:31

we're not talking to the people, again,

44:33

my annotation network engineers who are already,

44:36

who already solved these problems. So I

44:38

just want to say that whole right

44:40

there, that whole statement, I believe that

44:42

should be a cub-con panel discussion. I

44:44

want, I want a couple people from

44:46

the service mesh community, I still, our

44:49

friends over at Linker-D, I want them

44:51

on stage. I have a marino should

44:53

be there and maybe a couple network

44:55

engineers because I just thought to myself

44:57

I was like this is a one

44:59

hour topic I wanted to I wanted

45:02

heard I wanted to be discussed in

45:04

much greater detail because I think he

45:06

makes a lot of good points in

45:08

there, but I think a lot of

45:10

people would have some disagreements. So that

45:12

would be a great panel conversation. They

45:15

need to have at least two people

45:17

who have some sort of Cisco certification

45:19

and then like, and then two people

45:21

who have like a Kubernetes ambassador network

45:23

certification level five or whatever, and just

45:25

have them basically. Just talk and see

45:28

what happens. See what happens. Yeah, I

45:30

love that. So so check on that.

45:32

And then finally, of course, if you

45:34

would like stickers, all you have to

45:36

do is send your postal address to

45:38

me at stickers at software to find

45:41

talk.com I'll be happy to send you

45:43

a sticker anywhere in the world. Well,

45:45

there's a lot of conferences coming up.

45:47

I'm not going to be able to

45:49

read all of them. But very soon,

45:51

as in tomorrow, there's a Devopsays LA

45:54

in scale. There's also open source career

45:56

day March 9th, which which looks lovely.

45:58

I'll be speaking next week at the

46:00

the VMware user group the V mug

46:02

in the Netherlands here. There's Devops

46:05

Day Chicago March 18th SRE

46:07

Day London which is March 27th

46:09

and 28th I'll be there and also

46:11

be at monkey grass which is the

46:13

same days in London and then

46:16

there's Cloud Foundry Day May 14th

46:18

and Palo Alto Indice Oslo May

46:20

21st and 23rd and then Kub

46:22

Khan EU April 1st to 4th

46:25

where I Unfortunately won't be but

46:27

it should be fun. Now speaking of

46:29

things That should be fun. Matt Ray,

46:31

what do you have to recommend this

46:33

episode? My recommendation this week

46:36

is a new Netflix mini

46:38

series called Zero Day. It's not

46:40

good, but it's entertaining. And it has

46:42

a great cast. You should have a

46:44

great cast. Robert De Niro leads the

46:47

way. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. I mean,

46:49

I'm watching it and I'm kind of

46:51

like, if I had popcorn, I'd be

46:53

throwing it at the screen, but. but

46:55

also it's it's a popcorn show

46:57

right so it's it's worth watching

47:00

it's you know do not go

47:02

in with high expectations but

47:04

it's entertaining yeah it is what it

47:06

is but it's a political drama

47:09

about some you know cyber attack

47:11

knocking you know all computers all

47:13

phones all scat you know embedded

47:16

devices offline at the same time

47:18

you know for an hour and

47:20

then coming back online in the

47:22

aftermath of that it's like I'm

47:24

a little skeptical of the premise,

47:27

but it's fun to watch. Okay,

47:29

all right. I saw the

47:31

description, isn't he like ex-president

47:33

comes in to consult? Yeah,

47:35

yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I

47:37

can never get into like the sad

47:39

Robert DeNiro movies. Or he's like trying

47:41

to play like a morose Tommy Lee

47:44

Jones. You know, the funny thing is

47:46

he looks just like the old guy

47:48

in and up. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Well,

47:50

uh, how about yourself Brandon? What do

47:52

you have to recommend? Well, just picking

47:55

up on match recommendation, I think some

47:57

say that is the best cast in

47:59

television. of all time. So, and that's,

48:01

I'm not endorsing the show. I'm just saying

48:03

that was an interesting, weird fact that like,

48:06

because when you go through and you see

48:08

it like, it is a lot of like

48:10

very famous. Yeah, and good actors. And you're

48:12

like, this should have been a lot better,

48:15

but yeah, that's kind of, that's probably the

48:17

biggest thing. It's like, wow, you have a

48:19

lot of, you had a lot of great

48:21

people here, and this is what you did

48:24

with it. So there's a little bit of

48:26

a little bit of, I'm just like, I'm

48:28

just like, I'm just like, I'm just like,

48:31

I'm, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm,

48:33

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

48:35

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

48:37

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I One is, I'm

48:40

not a robot, which won the 2025 Academy

48:42

Award winner for Best Short Film, and it

48:44

is available on YouTube. And in Cote, it

48:46

is a Dutch film, right? So there you

48:49

go. So it's in Dutch, mostly, with a

48:51

little bit of English in there. Although, after

48:53

watching it, I was like, oh, every once

48:55

in a while, in Dutch, they kind of

48:58

start using English words. I'm like, I know

49:00

what they're saying. So I thought that was

49:02

interesting. That was interesting. So, that was interesting.

49:05

So it's a fun. It starts with a

49:07

woman trying to complete a capture, right? And

49:09

it goes from there. And it's a fun

49:11

movie and I feel like... If there's anyone

49:14

that should recommend a Academy Award winning Dutch

49:16

short film, kind of a biotechnology, that feels

49:18

like it should be the software to Find

49:20

Talk podcast. So I feel like we've succeeded

49:23

in our in the most niche of niche

49:25

movies. And again, it's free. You can just

49:27

watch it on YouTube. So nothing you have

49:29

to do. And then finally, I'm going to

49:32

I'm going to give away something for free

49:34

here. You know, hopefully I want to see

49:36

if we have anybody that likes to ski

49:39

in the audience. I have a couple friends

49:41

and family passes left for icon. So if

49:43

you are a skier and you know what

49:45

icon is and you're going to an icon

49:48

mountain and you would like one of these

49:50

friends and family passes that will save you

49:52

like roughly 25 30% depending where you're going.

49:54

This is what you have to do. You

49:57

just have to email me at questions as

49:59

software defined talk.com, put in like a like

50:01

something in the subject like icon free pass

50:03

or something along those lines. And if they're

50:06

still available, I will give them. I don't

50:08

want big ski to win. I want to

50:10

give away the final few free passes, or

50:13

if you have discounted passes, I have. I

50:15

don't want them to win. I don't want

50:17

them to be unused. I want someone to

50:19

claim them. So I don't care what you

50:22

do with them. Give them to your kids,

50:24

using yourself. Just someone use these passes. We

50:26

can't fail here. So hopefully there's one or

50:28

two skiers in the audience that will want

50:31

those. So email me. I think the subject

50:33

line needs to be. Oh, even better. You'll

50:35

get a little, you'll get a little emoji

50:37

if you use that one. I love it.

50:40

Yeah. Well, my, you know, inspired by Matt

50:42

Ray's recommendation. I'm going to recommend a little

50:44

series I watch recently that the Walking Dead,

50:47

the ones who live, I was talking with

50:49

the other American who lives in the neighborhood,

50:51

and I was like, whatever happened to that

50:53

Rick Grimes guy, and he's like, oh, they

50:56

have a whole show about that. And I

50:58

was like, wow, I've been So I went

51:00

and watched that and how did you put

51:02

it Matt Ray? It was entertaining but not

51:05

very good. I think I think that's the

51:07

era of TV we're living in. I think

51:09

I think that's that's my review of it.

51:11

It was it was it was entertaining not

51:14

very good but I watched the whole thing

51:16

and so it's it's you know if you're

51:18

invested in all that zombie shit you'll be

51:20

fine. It's okay and it's got it's got

51:23

it's got that old guy from lost who's

51:25

kind of he wasn't a wheelchair. And then

51:27

when he gets to the island he can

51:30

walk around. John Locke, I don't know his

51:32

name, I don't know his name, actor doubt,

51:34

but yes. It's got that guy, big cast.

51:36

And so he's always fun to see. Well,

51:39

speaking of things that are fun to see,

51:41

or here, depending on how you've consumed this,

51:43

this has been another edition episode, time well

51:45

spent with software defined talk, if you want

51:48

to get the show notes for this episode.

51:50

You can go to software to Find talk.com.com.

51:53

You can see all those conferences that I skipped over and went

51:55

really. There's a whole bunch of

51:57

links that we didn't talk about

51:59

that we have listed out and

52:01

ones that we did. out and you

52:03

really want that kind of you really want

52:05

you can take on an airplane.

52:07

tool that apparently you can finally take

52:10

apart the toilet and see why

52:12

they put that tape on top

52:14

of it. apart the could also find

52:16

links that tape those tools You could well. find

52:18

links to .com slash 509. And with

52:20

that, we'll see everyone next time.

52:22

Bye with that. We'll see everyone next time. Bye Is

52:25

that, that that the roomba or that

52:27

like a printer going in

52:29

the background? in the background? It's cleaner. a

52:31

rooma. a vacuum cleaner cleaner. No, a

52:33

vacuum room. now. The rooma entered is

52:35

the Roomba? long, how far away is the roomba?

52:37

It's like 20 feet feet away. 20

52:39

feet away. it's I felt

52:41

like, I madam Xerox machine. It feels

52:43

like a a machine is going

52:45

in the background, so. the background.

52:47

So, yeah. It's some, yeah. I need I

52:49

need to go get to

52:51

the and and cleaning cleaning and whatnot.