0:00

All right, joining me today is Brian Gracely from

0:02

the Welcome to the show, Brian. to

0:04

the show, longtime listener, A first -time caller. Excited to

0:06

be on with caller. Excited to be right.

0:08

Well, All right. had me on the on the

0:10

many times times this. year, I would say

0:12

we've done the news of the month

0:14

So what I thought I would what I thought

0:16

I a little bit from a little bit from

0:18

It's you know, they have you days their 12

0:20

days. I out what I think are maybe

0:22

like the like the 12 most interesting arbitrary things

0:24

I picked came up on the cloud of the

0:26

month the I think we should think we should revisit. And it

0:29

I thought we would kind of give it

0:31

a category. kind of the goal would be something that

0:33

we think is important for next year that

0:35

we think is important for we're glad

0:37

we know about. year. We'll archive

0:39

it, you know, that way we know about

0:41

it, but we kind of don't really need

0:43

to think about it much. to And then it much.

0:45

And then finally, Stuff that we're maybe tired of

0:47

hearing about or we wanna hear about less. want

0:49

to hear about you know, I think you know, I have

0:51

a good list here. We'll see if we

0:53

get through all see I think we've got

0:56

some good 12. I sports got some good potential I think

0:58

you've categorized some in a different category. So

1:00

maybe we can make it different for the people

1:02

as they finish their Christmas the maybe look

1:04

to the New Year's. So with all that

1:06

said, are you ready to dive in? Yeah, let's do

1:08

do it. I think we have enough

1:10

things that are different between our two lists

1:12

between our two have some good yeah, we'll have good

1:14

controversy, maybe a Reddit headline or something like

1:16

that. or idiots think that this is a

1:18

good idea or a bad idea. So

1:20

let's do it. Let's jump in. this is a

1:22

good always, we will measure success by hopefully

1:24

being aggregated in a it. Let's do it. Let's

1:26

where people pick a part of our

1:28

opinions. If that actually happens, we know

1:30

we've made it. So let's pick out in

1:32

the easy one. I think, well, maybe

1:34

some consensus a to start, opinion. probably the

1:37

thing we talked about about a lot

1:39

on on software to and certainly a lot on

1:41

a lot on the news just artificial intelligence and

1:43

generative AI and a, as a whole.

1:45

So what's your take going into next

1:47

year? This is kind of a is kind of

1:49

a way up. What do you think we should we should do with this

1:51

one? I've got it got it in You I think You know,

1:53

I think it's something you're gonna gonna gonna come

1:55

back to a lot lot. You're gonna stare at

1:57

lot and you're gonna kind of be like of be

1:59

like what what? What is, because this is the thing,

2:01

I think on one end, we were fascinated

2:03

by like what, I don't even want to

2:06

say like the potential of it, but how

2:08

smart it appears to be, right? Like we're

2:10

always fascinated with stuff that is like, that

2:12

is, that is really, really, really smart. And

2:14

on the other hand, I think we all

2:16

stare at it and we're like. Is this

2:18

really anything? Is this really, is this the

2:20

best that the smartest people in the world

2:22

with hundreds of billions of dollars could do?

2:25

So yeah, to me, it's like the most

2:27

interesting sort of yin and yang. And just

2:29

because everybody's like, this is the future, because

2:31

we have no, we have no patience anymore,

2:33

we have no, we have no time to

2:35

wait around for the answers and stuff. Yeah,

2:37

this is the, this one is the most.

2:39

One that we want to come back and

2:41

stare at the most. I don't know that

2:44

we're going to get like answers for it

2:46

next year, but I feel like we're going

2:48

to stare at it and poke at it

2:50

like like it's something in the zoo more

2:52

than anything else. I think that's exactly right.

2:54

I guess, you know, as I think about

2:56

it, as we kind of recap on the

2:58

last couple of episodes of software to find

3:00

talk, was, you know, the 12 days. Nettie's

3:02

cluster went down because they rolled out monitoring

3:05

and basically messed up the entire system, which

3:07

seems like exactly the kind of thing you

3:09

want AI to prevent, right? So it's like,

3:11

I don't know, like, I mean, it's just

3:13

like, I'm always like, so back and forth.

3:15

I'm like, that's great. I can do the

3:17

images. still can't keep the monitoring up right

3:19

like it's just such a weird thing but

3:21

that of course is I think why we

3:24

have to start it I agree with you

3:26

I'm starring this we're gonna probably talk about

3:28

it a ton next year both on our

3:30

cloud news in the month as well as

3:32

software to find time now the other one

3:34

close yeah the other thing I think the

3:36

other thing I think you guys made a

3:38

really good point about on your last show

3:40

about this is is I don't even think

3:43

that so you know to a certain extent

3:45

we we give somebody like open AI the

3:47

benefit of the doubt because we're like well

3:49

it appears like you're the best you've got

3:51

only smart people that people can quit and

3:53

you keep having cool stuff but but you

3:55

you guys sort of like rightly highlighted they

3:57

had this they go okay we're gonna have

3:59

12 and for you know those of us

4:02

who do this kind of content stuff for

4:04

living you're like I really have like four

4:06

but I got a number so I'm gonna

4:08

try and like stretch this out they weren't

4:10

even sure which one was the best they

4:12

were like I might put the best song

4:14

as third or fourth on the list you

4:16

know they were dropping like the video thing

4:18

on the third or fourth day and you

4:21

were just like I don't even think they

4:23

know what's cool at this point. You know,

4:25

they just want to throw up on the

4:27

wall and be like, it's all out there,

4:29

you figure it out. That to me makes

4:31

this other thing sort of interesting. It's a

4:33

little bit like a reality TV show. Like

4:35

you're like, I think I know what it

4:37

is, but I'm not exactly sure who the

4:40

crazy one is in this situation. Now I

4:42

think it's exactly right and I think it's

4:44

like it's just great when you're like when

4:46

you have massive product market fit you just

4:48

don't really have to make decisions you just

4:50

like to roll out there and like everyone

4:52

will figure it out for you so you

4:54

know right we'll see but again like we're

4:56

getting ahead ourselves we'll definitely be starring this

4:58

will definitely be talking about it next year

5:01

now it's too closely related is I think

5:03

another lay up here is invidia right I

5:05

don't know, the best performing stock of like

5:07

whatever the next last 10 years, 15 years,

5:09

basically everything has gone right for them. So

5:11

as we go into next year, I'm kind

5:13

of looking at it. I have also started

5:15

this one. I look at it more like

5:17

the thing that's interesting to me is sort

5:20

of like the tightrope they're walking. They have

5:22

the stock, price to perfection. They are the

5:24

absolute market leader. they're constrained only by demand

5:26

so of course they know how much money

5:28

they're going to make they've sold out everything

5:30

right so it's like you've achieved the perfect

5:32

company right I don't know what else you

5:34

can do other than go down that to

5:36

me is just seems like the logical thing

5:39

whether it's Broadcom or other cloud vendors so

5:41

I am actively kind of watching like when

5:43

does invidia start to like you know if

5:45

you will come back to earth what are

5:47

your thoughts on this one Yeah, so I

5:49

agree with that. I've got it in the

5:51

star category just again because we love we

5:53

love a rocket ship I The other thing

5:55

to me that's that's sort of interesting and

5:58

again I'm gonna you know step on the

6:00

third rail here is like I feel like

6:02

invidious the one company that hasn't taken a

6:04

stance on the US politics, right? They're not

6:06

on one side. They haven't had to go

6:08

to the White House. We haven't seen Jensen

6:10

walk in the White House with a leather

6:12

jacket yet and do a press conference. They

6:14

haven't been, you know, like the Trump campaign

6:17

hasn't called them out for any weird reason.

6:19

They haven't, like, they've figured out a way

6:21

to stay completely out of politics, which is

6:23

weird because we didn't used to talk about

6:25

politics and technology and now it's, they're all

6:27

sort of intertangled. they're right on the line between like,

6:29

you know, how much of what they do is U.S.

6:31

and, you know, they have to, they have to operate

6:33

differently in China. They, you know, they may have the

6:35

most money, they should be able to do all these

6:38

things like, what's going to be their moment where somehow,

6:40

like, they're going to stop having to talk about AI

6:42

for one day out of 365, and they're going to

6:44

have to make some sort of political choice, and like,

6:46

what is that? gonna mean to them and will it

6:48

be like a two minute blip or will it be

6:50

like a like a three week blip that like they

6:52

all of a sudden Jensen's like oh my god I

6:54

wish I had like a comms person that worked directly

6:56

you know that it was you know two layers down

6:59

for me but they're all directly working for me so

7:01

I'm gonna have to deal with this thing because like

7:03

you know we've talked about like all your products sold

7:05

out you've you've convinced the world that like you're going

7:07

to change all these things There's some other character that's

7:09

going to get introduced into their lives that they're going

7:11

to be like, oh man, now I have to deal

7:13

with this and I hadn't expected to deal with that.

7:15

And it's, maybe there's a chapter in the in video

7:17

way that we haven't read yet, but I do feel

7:20

like somewhere in there, that's, that'll be the, the twist

7:22

for 2025 that will all get to deal with. I

7:24

really, no, I actually like that. I mean, maybe pose

7:26

this as a question is like, like, what does Jensen

7:28

and video want from the media want from the government,

7:30

want from the government, want from the government, they don't

7:32

want anything. They're like, in fact, they have anything to

7:34

just like look away, look away at all the money

7:36

we're making. So maybe, because I think China recently announced

7:39

maybe like some type of investigation into a monopoly kind

7:41

of situation. So maybe something like that, that's something that.

7:43

video would some type of political

7:45

of for, but it is

7:47

kind of hard to think

7:49

about it is kind of hard to think about

7:51

they definitely should start floating

7:53

the they you know, do the

7:55

thing where you float stuff

7:57

through the news or through,

8:00

you're like, Well, we're going

8:02

to buy you float did that,

8:04

you know, how did that

8:06

get, how did that get

8:08

worked like Okay, we're going

8:10

to buy Intel how did or we're

8:12

going to try and buy

8:14

that again, or, you know,

8:16

like, how did think they should

8:18

sort of float some things

8:21

in which okay we're they're basically like, no,

8:23

no, we want to be the and buy for

8:25

the entire world. Like, how does that work

8:27

out? Like, should sort if we bought some things in which

8:29

just right, right? wow, they want to see that would be just just that

8:31

would there like, you know, you know, have, out there. Like,

8:33

you know, Thompson just somebody like Ben Thompson, just

8:35

kind of write an article about it. And

8:37

then like, I feel what see what the blowback is.

8:39

I feel like we're feel like we're a little Simmons with

8:41

the the blowback is. I like, I feel like we're channeling a you're

8:43

like, I don't know, the internet would break know,

8:45

if did that. But I like all of

8:47

it. little Bill well, that's why we're going to feel

8:49

like, I'm like, I feel like, I'm back to it, I'm know,

8:51

I'm like, I like, I like, I continues. I like, I like, I see

8:53

political help. I like, I come back to I like, I

8:55

like, I like, We're going to cover I like, I podcast

8:57

I sure. like, I like, All right. Finally, let's get

8:59

into some into some dissension like it's good sports radio arguments we can we can

9:02

start I'm going to give it. I'm going

9:04

to let you start here. here I'm gonna give you I'm

9:06

gonna let you start you have put this

9:08

one in AI strategy so you have this

9:10

one? in archive put this one in

9:12

archive because I one in archive because I

9:14

than because I think other than other open you know

9:16

whatever it was, AI or three

9:18

years ago, back before we really

9:20

totally knew who those guys were. those

9:22

guys I don't feel like they've really done anything. done anything

9:25

outside of outside of that, we didn't continue

9:27

to think of them as like, well,

9:29

they're the number of them right? They're the company

9:31

that we all know and they're the

9:33

company that does right? they do the 365 that we

9:35

we all hate and they're the same things. that does

9:38

Windows and just sort of like... 365

9:40

and we all hate teams know, all, you you'll figure out,

9:42

mean, like, but think about it this

9:44

way, like... sort of really interested in

9:46

Microsoft figure They're interested in about it

9:48

this way, like, nobody's really Like, are they

9:50

gonna keep dating? Are they

9:52

not gonna keep dating? But

9:54

nobody's like, the only the only piece of the only

9:56

piece of Microsoft that anybody really cares about is they're like, are

9:58

you going to keep to keep putting... money into this

10:00

and are they going to keep telling you

10:03

that your cloud doesn't keep up and isn't

10:05

fast enough. So I still feel like Microsoft

10:07

is always going to be viewed from a

10:09

cloud perspective as like, okay, they're the little

10:12

brother of AWS. And for an AI perspective,

10:14

they're going to be like, well, whatever open

10:16

AI tells you to do, that's what you're

10:18

going to do. Because I don't think they

10:21

really have as much control over it as

10:23

we thought they did when we were praising

10:25

Sataya like a year ago. Yeah, I agree.

10:27

I think maybe I would summarize this one

10:30

by the last announcement where they announced the

10:32

product project manager Agent was one of the

10:34

major announcements at their recent efforts And I

10:36

was like as I said on multiple podcasts

10:39

like that was like the least aspiring vision

10:41

of AI I've ever I've witnessed I was

10:43

like the least aspiring vision of AI I've

10:45

ever I've ever witnessed I was like I

10:48

don't want to live in the world where

10:50

I have an AI bot telling me to

10:52

update my status to update what multi trillion

10:54

dollar company you know it's it'll just will

10:57

continue to do well but it's just sort

10:59

of like like like we said archive like

11:01

we know about it but we don't really

11:04

you know need to pay attention now that

11:06

though I thought was interesting in your rankings

11:08

here is now you have starred Amazon waves

11:10

web services or AWS or AWS I think

11:13

I think I'm interested in them, obviously, you

11:15

know, they do set the tone still for

11:17

for cloud, right? And whether that means that

11:19

the next 10 years of cloud is just

11:22

simply going to be, you know, every primitive

11:24

that you use is now going to be

11:26

considered like automatic or serverless or what, you

11:28

know, like that sort of feels like maybe

11:31

the direction we're going to go. It's going

11:33

to be like, you have a compute cluster

11:35

and it automatically, you know, whatever. They're going

11:37

to continue to be good at that because

11:40

they're the one. They're the one cloud. They're

11:42

the one of the three big clouds in

11:44

which the cloud is. the dominant money source,

11:46

right? Like Google at Search and, you know,

11:49

Microsoft, it's still basically the bundle, right? It's

11:51

the office plus teams, plus whatever. So I

11:53

think there's a leadership position there, you know,

11:55

can they keep making stuff simpler? Maybe they

11:58

can, maybe they can't. And I think their

12:00

AI strategy is the most interesting because it

12:02

feels like it's the most different from everybody

12:04

else. And you're sort of like, You know,

12:07

again, we're kind of, we kind of asked

12:09

the question, and this is the thing I

12:11

think we ask with every one of these

12:13

big companies is, and I think they do

12:16

the same thing internally as they go, okay,

12:18

we, you know, we do something this way

12:20

all the time, like this is the way

12:22

that we cook steak, you know, we do

12:25

it this way, and then somebody's like, well,

12:27

But we're going to do this new thing,

12:29

like we're going to start doing tofu. And

12:31

they're like, okay, well, how do we cook

12:34

steak? Okay, let's do tofu the exact same

12:36

way. And people are, yeah, I don't know

12:38

if that's exactly kind of the right way

12:41

to do it or whatever, and they're like,

12:43

no, no, no, no, that's how we do

12:45

it. And that's essentially what they've sort of

12:47

laid out. And I think they're the most

12:50

interesting. that to me makes them the most

12:52

interesting because we don't know what you know

12:54

we don't know if the like they're the

12:56

one that didn't get the bump automatically right

12:59

like everybody else got a trillion dollar market

13:01

cap bump before they ever made any revenue

13:03

because they were like well all those smart

13:05

people work there of course it's going to

13:08

happen they didn't get the bump and so

13:10

now they got the burden of being like

13:12

oh we're going to have to show that

13:14

we're making money with this. customer problems or

13:17

at least you know to a certain extent

13:19

and this seems like a really hard customer

13:21

problem because again they haven't gotten the trillion

13:23

dollar stock market bump and they're only going

13:26

to get it or at least they're going

13:28

to get part of it when they've showed

13:30

that they can monetize this and turn it

13:32

into you know usable usable useable. So to

13:35

that extent, like they've got variables that are

13:37

more interesting to keep an eye on than

13:39

some of the other ones that are just

13:41

going to be like, hey, we have a

13:44

bigger model. OK, cool. All right, I like

13:46

it. So you're kind of getting at more,

13:48

if you will, more at stake, more at

13:50

stake, more at stake, more at stake, because

13:53

more at stake, because more at stake, because

13:55

more at stake, because the profit center and

13:57

more at stake, because really frankly. I'm going

13:59

to archive the emails that come from Garmin,

14:02

right? If I get emails from Garmin, they're

14:04

archiving that baby. He's going to be in

14:06

the weeds telling me about the new synchronized

14:08

database stuff. And I'm like, I don't care,

14:11

right? I'm going to star any of the

14:13

emails from JASI. Like, if JASI is giving

14:15

the speech or if JASI comes down, I'm

14:17

like, I'm going to pay attention to be

14:20

like, oh, looks like we got some AI

14:22

news, right. I am very curious and I

14:24

guarantee you know like this is us you

14:27

and I would have this kind of conversation

14:29

off the air but like this is how

14:31

delusional we are like you and I are

14:33

both like garment is the CEO of Amazon

14:36

AWS cloud and Jassie is the CEO of

14:38

Amazon you know of AWS AI. Right, but

14:40

you do have to wonder and like I

14:42

guarantee that anything we say never kind of

14:45

gets bubbled up to anybody. And I would

14:47

give a chassis the CEO of the AI,

14:49

right? And it's just like, you know, and

14:51

when you're in the meeting with Garman, he's

14:54

like, I'm getting paid a lot of money.

14:56

You'd be like, absolutely you are. I would

14:58

do it. Listen, I don't say that like

15:00

I wouldn't take the job, but you got

15:03

to know, you, you do you have to

15:05

have to wonder, you have to wonder, and

15:07

like, and like, you have to wonder, and

15:09

like, you have to wonder, and like, and

15:12

like, you have to wonder, and like, and

15:14

like, I guarantee that anything we say, I

15:16

guarantee that anything we say, And I would

15:18

wonder if like that happened to have gotten

15:21

back to him and you got in a

15:23

meeting with him, like just how long he

15:25

would wait before he would bring that up

15:27

to you and be like, I'm sorry, I'm

15:30

still running the, you know, 100 billion dollar

15:32

business growing 20% a year, you know, year

15:34

over year. And you're like, well, yeah, I.

15:36

Yeah, that's nice. But, you know. I think

15:39

I would do, listen, all of these CEOs,

15:41

welcome to come on any of the podcast.

15:43

I speak for you and me. They would

15:45

come on. We would love it. But I

15:48

would just whip out the 12 principles. I'd

15:50

be like, you know, disagree and commit or

15:52

the other one. It's like, tell the truth,

15:54

right? You know, and I'd be like, I

15:57

think it's like, have a spine or something.

15:59

I'd be like, I'd be like, hey man,

16:01

I'm just calling it like I'm just calling

16:04

it like I see it like I see

16:06

it like I see it like I see

16:08

it like I see it like I see

16:10

it like I see it. you're still a

16:13

lot more rich than I am. I mean,

16:15

like, what do you want me to say?

16:17

Like, you're still winning. I mean, it's like,

16:19

you can be mad at me, but you

16:22

still have all the money. I just do

16:24

a podcast, but yeah, I welcome that. You

16:26

know, I think it would be fantastic. All

16:28

right, moving on here, maybe this could be

16:31

the most controversial one, that at least we

16:33

disagree on here. Like, why are you doing

16:35

this to us? Well, I think I think

16:37

the reason for this and again, I like,

16:40

I, I put these in the category of

16:42

like, you know, pay attention to them because

16:44

of the level of complexity of them, not,

16:46

not because I necessarily think that some new

16:49

things going to happen, but I do think

16:51

if we think about like why we fell

16:53

in love with the idea that like open

16:55

source could become this like super widespread thing,

16:58

right, like, you know, basically the, it's the

17:00

flip side of like, hey, there will only

17:02

be one red hat and everybody one. I

17:04

know we all agree that there's only going

17:07

to be one red hat and there probably

17:09

won't be another red hat, but wait a

17:11

minute, there's this other new shiny thing. And

17:13

the reason we all fell in love with

17:16

this other new shiny thing is because you

17:18

know interest rates were a certain level that

17:20

they were and people were like, oh this

17:22

stuff came out of Google, so it must

17:25

be really cool. And like there was a

17:27

bunch of other things that people were just

17:29

like, I know, but like. You didn't change

17:31

anything fundamentally. So I will be really interested

17:34

to see. I'm never interested when somebody's like,

17:36

oh, they did a rug pull. That's not

17:38

that interesting. But I am sort of interested

17:41

when there are people that keep coming back

17:43

to the idea of like, you know, this

17:45

is this is where software. Like this

17:47

this was like for

17:50

a decade. This was

17:52

like how software was to

17:54

get built And I

17:56

do wonder if it's

17:59

like if it's like, no, no, no,

18:01

no, we're just not

18:03

going to have software

18:05

companies anymore like everything's

18:08

just going to be Like

18:10

a SaaS company going to be a SAS company because the

18:12

only way that you can do free

18:14

at scale do you can cut it

18:16

off after 14 days 14 you're not gonna

18:18

have like the free competing against you.

18:21

the So to me, like the open

18:23

source licensing piece the terribly interesting, piece isn't terribly

18:25

what happens to people coming out with

18:27

software, like everything have to be SaaS or is

18:29

there still is there still gonna be like

18:31

software, software companies? And so that's the

18:33

only reason I put that in there.

18:35

It's probably a total scam because you're

18:37

asking specifically about open source licensing. If

18:39

it was just. yeah I would

18:41

put in the spam filter was right well

18:43

that's where I would put it in the spam

18:45

filter because like we've discussed it way too

18:47

much on software to find talk. And in an in an

18:50

upcoming episode 500 of 500 to find, you'll actually hear

18:52

a series of resolutions that I hope that

18:54

think that we came to as a group

18:56

around like things that that we're no longer

18:58

going to be upset about it actually happens. So I'll

19:00

let the let the listener you know episode 500

19:02

hundred where we kind of go over that

19:04

But that would would just a a broad category

19:06

sort of of like. I I think we all

19:08

know where this stands. like don't

19:11

need to see any more Twitter

19:13

threads, threads, blue skies threads, you know, know, write -ups

19:15

about open like like explanations of

19:17

how licensing should work, core, I mean, I

19:19

I mean, I could go on

19:21

and on. know, at We know, at

19:23

this point, you know, of your kind

19:26

of your thing, it's like I'm not

19:28

saying you can't build build software. source

19:30

But if you do, the trade

19:32

do, are well known in the licensing

19:34

choice. choice. Please email, email, software defined talk, asking

19:36

to to come on, talk about open

19:38

source and licensing. licensing. are not available

19:40

to have that subject. Unless like, I

19:42

don't know, unless you do something, you

19:44

do something so new and interesting, I

19:46

can't even conceive of what it would

19:48

be. But know, I I don't want

19:50

you to come on and talk about

19:52

how important the community is. like, all these

19:54

other of these other things, it's like

19:56

we have run this into the

19:58

ground. So I I have put. this if you will

20:01

in the hard spam filter. Maybe that's too,

20:03

maybe I'm being too aggressive, you know, with

20:05

my spam filter, but at some point you

20:07

just got to cut it off. So I

20:09

feel like this is a big, I mean,

20:11

this is, this is one of the pillars,

20:13

I don't even know if it's a pillar

20:15

just of software to Vine Talk. It was

20:18

definitely a pillar of Twitter. So you're essentially

20:20

canceling Adam Jacobs. essentially that most of the

20:22

value that people see in Adam Jacobs which

20:24

you guys are big fans of because obviously

20:26

Matt we used to work for him and

20:28

you know probably still very good friends of

20:30

them but like he's he's essentially like the

20:33

beetle juice of you know for Twitter whenever

20:35

there's an open-source discussion it's like it's like

20:37

Adam Jacobs Adam Jacobs Adam Jacobs and he

20:39

pops up and he starts doing this long

20:41

thread about whatever and what's what's interesting is

20:43

you know he's become like this great defender

20:45

of open-source software But I feel like, and

20:47

there's a good video, I'll put a link

20:50

to it in your show notes, or I'll

20:52

send it to you, and you can decide

20:54

if you want to put it in there.

20:56

But essentially, he's become the guy, have you

20:58

ever seen the meme that's out there? It's

21:00

like, A, start a business. Two, skip this.

21:02

Number three, make tons of profits. And that's

21:05

essentially what he's because he goes, you, open

21:07

source is still great. Don't give it away

21:09

for free. What about where we're step two?

21:11

What was the thing in there? And because

21:13

he gets real animated about it, and because...

21:15

you know he never is like I'm not

21:17

selling out I'm not putting on like a

21:19

blazer or a tie or something like I'm

21:22

always gonna dress the way I've always dressed

21:24

people are like no this guy still gets

21:26

it he still gets it and I think

21:28

it's interesting that yeah you're essentially sort of

21:30

saying like we're canceling that and I don't

21:32

disagree sort of saying like we're canceling that

21:34

and I don't disagree with the great you're

21:37

saying there's the greatest hit so Adam Jacob

21:39

his greatest hit just to really recap just

21:41

to really recap it just to really recap

21:43

it just to recap it very recap it

21:45

very recap it just to really recap it

21:47

just a really recap it just a really

21:49

recap it just a really recap it just

21:51

to but you know if you will keep

21:54

your trademarks right the thing that you are

21:56

selling and you're doing always comes from your

21:58

trademark company which is new one is a

22:00

systems initiative yeah and it's fine and it's

22:02

It's like, that's this thing. And it's like,

22:04

I don't know. It's like, that's what he

22:06

would say. I you know it's like it's

22:09

like going on stage like a comic just

22:11

telling the same joke over and over so

22:13

like his position is well known and that's

22:15

always always gonna say maybe it does work

22:17

maybe it will work for him but we

22:19

just don't need to discuss it anymore so

22:21

I'm just like I'm alone that's why I'm

22:23

just like hey it's not happening more all

22:26

right it was with the with that is

22:28

the transition we won't discuss it anymore this

22:30

other one you have under starred I thought

22:32

this is a little surprising from you're surprising

22:34

from you know surprising from you know understand.

22:36

So why do we need to watch what's

22:38

happening there that I'm missing? I think this

22:41

is one that, you know, again, it links

22:43

back to if if if all we're talking

22:45

about is open source licensing, then the value

22:47

of the CNCF sort of becomes and this

22:49

is this is a long discussion of like

22:51

what is the value of the CNCF if,

22:53

you know, they don't pay, they don't pay

22:55

maintainers necessarily, they just expect somebody else to

22:58

pay for them. But I do think what's

23:00

interesting what the CNCF. is and this is

23:02

one of those like well why is this

23:04

happening they've probably had their three biggest events

23:06

you know like attendance and community kind of

23:08

growth in the last three events like the

23:10

last two Europe events and then this one

23:13

in North America has been very good and

23:15

apparently the one in Asia or in India

23:17

in India which you always have to take

23:19

with a grain of salt because there's just

23:21

so many people in India but like apparently

23:23

attendance at CNCF events has been going through

23:25

the roof or the last three to four

23:27

of their main event. So that's, you know,

23:30

a year and a half, two years. So,

23:32

like, the question is, like, well, why is

23:34

that happening? Because, you know, we're seeing more

23:36

or more of the unicorn companies from the

23:38

late, you know, the early 2000 or 2020s

23:40

are sort of probably going to start going

23:42

under more than anything. But like, why is

23:45

this happening? There's like, there's more projects which

23:47

makes it more confusing, but there's all these

23:49

people. this new kind of new interest in

23:51

the whole CNCF community, maybe not necessarily Kubernetes,

23:53

because Kubernetes keeps growing and it's foundational, but

23:55

like, why are so many people coming to

23:57

CubCon? It can't be for the swag. The

23:59

swag's not that good. And if you wanted

24:02

to go to Amsterdam, you could just go

24:04

to Amsterdam. So like, that's the piece that

24:06

it's one of those like, you know, it's

24:08

like the Kardash. I'm not really sure why

24:10

it's so popular. Well, maybe we're closer on

24:12

this one because I, you know, I put

24:14

this in the archive category just because I

24:17

feel like it's just maybe it's just another

24:19

way of just saying it's just very mainstream,

24:21

right? It's like, yeah, like, you know, we

24:23

know about all the CNCF projects, we know

24:25

about Kubernetes, we know, we can kind of

24:27

predict the, like, what's going to happen at

24:29

the conferences will be some new announcements, some

24:31

new projects being promoted. It's just like very

24:34

stable to me. Like in my world, I

24:36

kind of think of just, and I mean

24:38

this as a compliment, like kind of exists

24:40

in the background. It's just like, oh yeah,

24:42

people are just like making incremental progress on

24:44

things like that and occasionally something, I don't

24:46

know, some kind of licensing dispute, like open

24:49

tofu or something like that, kind of comes

24:51

up, and that's fun to talk about, but

24:53

it's like, oh yeah, they'll get it worked

24:55

out. You know, you know, I'm just sort

24:57

of like, like, like, like, a licensing change,

24:59

like, a licensing change, like, like, like, like,

25:01

a licensing change, like, like, like, like, like,

25:03

like, like, like, like, like, CNCF will be

25:06

on this in a few minutes. They'll have

25:08

some kind of fort going soon enough and

25:10

like everything will work itself out. Like no

25:12

one has to be upset. So I just

25:14

I don't know. Yeah. It's like a nice

25:16

background music to me. It's a different industry.

25:18

There's still the possibility and again this is

25:21

small and it'll be minor. But like the

25:23

Hashi Corp acquisition still hasn't closed with IBM.

25:25

It's still you know they're still working through

25:27

whatever regulatory stuff they have to work through.

25:29

open source kind of kerfuffle was about terraform

25:31

and open tofu and whatever other variations are

25:33

going to be like maybe there's a chance

25:35

that it like kind of that blends itself

25:38

back together so there's you know there's a

25:40

small maybe like January February I think it's

25:42

probably, yeah, good for you. Yeah, well, I

25:44

think it's probably just because it's like, it's

25:46

a lot of you. Well, I'll be interested.

25:48

I don't know. I don't know. I don't

25:50

know. Is anyone protesting, I'd be interesting. I'm

25:53

trying to think if there's anyone out there,

25:55

that's, like, really. I'm trying to think if

25:57

there's anyone out there, that's like, really. That's

25:59

like, really. I'm trying to think if there's

26:01

anyone out there's anyone out there's anyone out

26:03

there's anyone out there's anyone out there's anyone

26:05

out there's anyone out there's anyone out there's

26:07

anyone out there's anyone out there's anyone out

26:10

there's anyone out there's anyone out there's anyone

26:12

out there's anyone out there's, that's anyone out

26:14

there's anyone out there's anyone out there's anyone

26:16

out there's anyone out there's anyone out there's

26:18

anyone out there's anyone out there's, that's anyone

26:20

out there's anyone out there's anyone out somewhere

26:22

else. So in Geneva, yeah, I'd love to

26:25

go to some of those meetings. How do

26:27

we get on that job? Where we just

26:29

go, we have a lot of discussions, we

26:31

spend a lot of time in the beach,

26:33

and at the end we're like, sounds fine.

26:35

That's how you do. We just be like,

26:37

after we're going to everything, seems fine. You

26:39

guys are everything, you guys have, you guys,

26:42

you have, data sovereignty and cloud regulations. Yeah,

26:44

you've got that as something that you're interested

26:46

to start for next year. Why is that,

26:48

why is that, why is that? Well, I

26:50

just because I think I think we're getting

26:52

into usually the regulation stuff like I don't

26:54

really care about because I can't keep up

26:57

with it and it's you know a thousand

26:59

page document that I'll never read probably give

27:01

it the jet cheap to summarize it and

27:03

I'm not a lawyer so I don't have

27:05

to enforce it. But I do feel like

27:07

that and especially Europe I do feel like

27:09

Europe's fascination and like adamant that they are

27:11

going to regulate. these American companies with like

27:14

their marketplaces or you know how they do

27:16

logins or whatever is like very distinctly sort

27:18

of making Europe as a whole from a

27:20

textine very much a sort of a third-class

27:22

citizen right like there's the US there's Silicon

27:24

Valley there's the pockets of the US and

27:26

so forth you know Asia you know is

27:29

is sort of China and all you know

27:31

has its own thing right has its own

27:33

thing and Europe you know like Europe has

27:35

a hard enough time because it's as fragmented

27:37

as it is the EU is the EU

27:39

it's kind of gotten it to some level

27:41

of consistency and then it it's the only

27:43

place that's like we are going to put

27:46

the, I mean, it's a weird thing because

27:48

it's like Europe hasn't as a whole, whether

27:50

it's got regulations or doesn't have regulations, hasn't

27:52

been a place where lots of, you know,

27:54

super successful innovation has come out of, right?

27:56

Like in somebody in Europe's going to get

27:58

mad, they're going to go, hey, look at

28:01

this and, you know, arm and other things.

28:03

Okay, Nokia was a thing, but they're no

28:05

longer like in the mobile phone game or

28:07

whatever. But I feel like this, this belief

28:09

that like regulations are going to save you

28:11

without having sort of some other sort of

28:13

innovation to come along is this constant sort

28:15

of crutch of like, well, if we just

28:18

keep kind of keeping them down some other,

28:20

you know, innovation will happen. And that's never

28:22

kind of proven itself. And because tech is

28:24

so in, you know, kind of, you know,

28:26

kind of integrated in how well your economy

28:28

does, I feel like, I feel like. It's

28:30

interesting to watch it, but I almost feel

28:33

like we're watching it to sort of watch

28:35

something sort of disintegrate itself. Plus, you know,

28:37

for any of us that work on the

28:39

technology side, sort of selling things, you're like,

28:41

all right, now I gotta figure out what

28:43

the EU regulations are to deal with this

28:45

stuff because like everywhere else, it's whatever it

28:47

is. So to me, that's sort of interesting.

28:50

It's not like exciting, but it is sort

28:52

of, it's like watching somebody. sort of self-destruct

28:54

and you're like you don't have to do

28:56

this to yourself there's nobody forcing you to

28:58

do this to yourself but you know like

29:00

that to me that and so that's the

29:02

only reason that it's like interesting to kind

29:05

of keep an eye on just because it's

29:07

like you know why are you doing this

29:09

what you know like I love it. I

29:11

feel like Brian channeling your teenage father persona.

29:13

It's sort of like you can make better

29:15

decisions here. You don't have to make the

29:17

hard decision. You can make better decisions. I

29:19

love it. I just feel like I'm just

29:22

getting it. I feel like when I want

29:24

your daughters, this is the speech your daughters

29:26

must hear. It's like this is like decisions

29:28

if you want or you can do it

29:30

hard by. That's right. I'm going to sit

29:32

there. I'm going to watch you smoke. all

29:34

that pack of of cigarettes. know

29:37

you only had one, but we're know

29:39

smoke the whole thing one, but

29:41

we're going to smoke

29:43

the whole thing and

29:45

you're going to gonna decide

29:47

to to do. Well, I to

29:49

do. know, I can't I

29:51

don't know. I can't

29:54

really disagree. of, I guess

29:56

maybe of, more the way I

29:58

maybe it's more as way

30:00

I think of it

30:02

I of feel just feel

30:04

like, well, gonna going

30:06

to regulate. They're just

30:09

going to do their

30:11

thing and there's going

30:13

to be a lot

30:15

of meetings and they're

30:17

going to. gonna. be a a lot and

30:19

it's but I don't, I necessarily feel

30:21

like anything new is going to happen. But maybe

30:23

to your point, maybe it's become like a slow

30:25

boil situation. boil Like if this goes on long

30:27

enough, you're right. You just draw like a

30:29

big circle around Europe and it's kind of like

30:31

Europe a different kind of like a different

30:34

technology. already a know, whether it's the

30:36

pop -up, you know, browse like cookie

30:38

thing, or it's the lack of

30:40

willingness for companies to ship the

30:42

latest features to the because of to

30:44

of regulation, fear of like that. guess,

30:46

um, that I guess Maybe I've been lulled to

30:48

sleep a little bit bit it's just like, yeah,

30:50

I don't think yeah, I don't to happen there other

30:53

than just, uh, you know, I guess I you

30:55

it's like, I don't have to worry about it.

30:57

I live here have to worry about uh, I'm in

30:59

Texas. You know, I and worry about it. in always

31:01

tells me he's like, cote well, I don't, I

31:03

don't have access to that. I'm like, well, me

31:05

he's like oh I don't I don't have access at work. Sorry well

31:07

Maybe you, you can fire up, uh, your favorite

31:09

VPN and you can try out some of

31:11

the new features up your favorite That's right. It'll teach us about like teach

31:13

us about card new card he has to use

31:15

to be able to garbage, you know, taken care

31:17

know, taking I mean they still

31:19

have great public transportation. have great public transportation.

31:22

So have to drive cars everywhere.

31:24

It's like, yeah, true. That's

31:26

actually to drive cars everywhere. not even close

31:28

to solving that so true. We're

31:30

right, well, let's go on to

31:32

that. So all next one here that

31:34

I think is closely related here

31:36

that I think is closely related. And so repatration. probably

31:38

still can't say it. I've gone ahead this is

31:40

this is just the whole trend of

31:42

like everyone's moving their workloads back from the

31:44

cloud and it's a big deal and everyone's

31:46

been talking about it. And I'm like, I

31:48

think for the most part, part this This

31:50

doesn't happen. when it And when it does happen, it is

31:52

kind of novel and people write about it. And

31:54

it's like a great like trend piece but it's always like

31:57

a trend of just like. of just like person

31:59

doing it. not like anyone's actually doing

32:01

it in a broadway. So I kind of

32:03

look at this as sort of like, I

32:05

don't, I guess really not much has come

32:07

of it and I don't think much of

32:09

it will come of it in the new

32:12

year other than the occasional, if you will,

32:14

when you want to call it, conference presentation

32:16

where someone says how important it is. So

32:18

I've archived it. Now you, looks like you've

32:20

actually put this, if I'm reading correctly here

32:22

on your span filter, why is that? I

32:24

think it's one of those things where it's

32:27

like people talk about repatriation and there's always

32:29

the, well, that's not really real, I don't

32:31

really believe it's going to happen, and there's

32:33

never any numbers that really back it up.

32:35

Right, like, I mean, the only, the only

32:37

person who really tried to make the numbers

32:40

work was, was it Martin Cassado, right, wrote

32:42

that famous, you know, A16Z paper and then...

32:44

Famous, infamous, I would call it. We wrote

32:46

this paper, he had a co-writer, I apologize,

32:48

I don't remember her name, and then he

32:50

started, people started beating up on him and

32:52

he famously just threw her under the bus,

32:55

like, oh, she did all the work, it

32:57

was, it was, it was her idea, it

32:59

was her idea, like, like, like, like, like,

33:01

I don't think, you know, and then every

33:03

year there's always people who are like, you

33:05

could just migrate your entire mainframe. Here's this,

33:08

you know, Cobalta Java thing. Like, I don't

33:10

know, I mean, it's one of those things

33:12

where the answer is always, it depends. and

33:14

there's never any sort of numbers to back

33:16

it up and nobody kind of want to

33:18

tell you just you know like well this

33:20

is this is how you would do it

33:23

or this is how you wouldn't do it.

33:25

So to me it feels like it's a

33:27

you know it's like Thanksgiving dinner like when

33:29

you're in-laws come over like there will be

33:31

lightning rods and if you can kind of

33:33

just weather through that two-hour period it will

33:35

go away like you won't have to you

33:38

won't have to put up with it like

33:40

any more than that like any more than

33:42

that. It'll be it'll come up once or

33:44

twice this year. Somebody will have one example

33:46

of something and then you'll be like cool.

33:48

Do you have another example and then they'll

33:51

go go away and you know summer vacation

33:53

will come along and we'll stop caring about

33:55

it or whatever it will be. I think

33:57

that's a great summary. In fact, I'm actually

33:59

updating the doc right now. I'm moving this

34:01

one. I mean, that was a huge paper

34:03

they wrote. And the whole thing was based

34:06

on, and really it hinged on, when you

34:08

mentioned that A16 article, I had literally forgotten

34:10

how much I hated that article, and because

34:12

I probably put that in spam. And so

34:14

just the fact that that, this was associated

34:16

with that piece of content is, that alone

34:18

puts in this. I mean, that was a

34:21

huge paper they wrote. I mean, like, and

34:23

the whole thing was based on Dropbox, I

34:25

had a few things in work would get

34:27

me upset, but I remember actually having a

34:29

very strong visceral reaction. Yeah, so agree. We're

34:31

putting this in the spam filter. I recommend

34:34

everyone else to do it as well. Hey,

34:36

in the, in the, in the Silicon Valley,

34:38

like museum, you know, like the history of

34:40

museum in Silicon Valley, in the, in the

34:42

history of museum in Silicon Valley, in Silicon

34:44

Valley, or will they highlight that, that, that

34:46

paper that he wrote, you know, in, like,

34:49

in shame. Well, I know what I would

34:51

be voting for. If I was in the

34:53

hall, if I was, I'd be like, after

34:55

this repatriation thing, we almost have to rethink

34:57

all of it. Because I would be like,

34:59

halo effect on the first, bad decisions on

35:01

the second is what I would be. I'd

35:04

be like, he controlled his, his real opinion

35:06

on this repatriation thing, and this is what

35:08

he decided. Yeah. And that's what I would

35:10

do. Probably people would give him credit for

35:12

the big success for the big success, because

35:14

it's like. Sure, talk about, right? And it's

35:17

money. Yeah, I mean, is he like the

35:19

Pete Rose of Silicon Valley? You know, huge

35:21

success did something really impressive, but also people

35:23

are like, but there's another thing. I don't

35:25

know if you can put him, because that's

35:27

gambling. I don't know if he did anything,

35:29

like, he's bad, but not, like, wrong. He

35:32

wrote something that we thought was bad versus,

35:34

like, broke some, but he has time left,

35:36

you know, you know, he'll see, he's, he's,

35:38

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

35:40

he's, he's, he's, he, he's, he's, he's, he's,

35:42

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

35:44

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

35:47

he's, he's, We can see what happens. All

35:49

right, one we agree on, so we can

35:51

probably talk about it quickly, was we both

35:53

put the Broadcom VMware acquisition in the archive

35:55

category. I think it's pretty obvious. It's sort

35:57

of like, well, at first it was like,

36:00

everyone's gonna leave VMware. Turns out, no, that's

36:02

not happening either. out there was a lot

36:04

of discussion about it. Again, much like the

36:06

previous cloud repatriation topic we talked about was

36:08

occasionally it happens, it's newsworthy, but for the

36:10

most part people are just renewing their VMware

36:12

license ends. And VMware from what I can

36:15

tell is like making more money and I

36:17

think Broadcom is largely like pretty happy with

36:19

the acquisition there. So yeah, not a ton.

36:21

I mean, maybe the news, if there's any

36:23

reason to move this up would be things

36:25

that don't have anything to the VMware. It's

36:27

like Broadcom is suddenly making even more money

36:30

on their chip business for AI. So maybe

36:32

that has some repercussions that for VMware in

36:34

the sense of like, they're just now held

36:36

by a company that's super profitable in a

36:38

different could be good could be bad I

36:40

don't know you know it's like one of

36:43

those weird things so I don't any thoughts

36:45

on the VMware acquisition no well I do

36:47

I do wish they would still like I

36:49

wish what's his name Michael who's the guy

36:51

that wrote the big short book I wish

36:53

instead of following Sandbank and Fried he would

36:55

write a book that was like here's how

36:58

Michael Dell turned, you know, basically went from

37:00

having to be a private company, a public

37:02

company, to a private company, bought VMware, eventually

37:04

sold that to Brock, like I want to

37:06

hold documentary on that, told in the same

37:08

way that they did like the big short,

37:10

which is this like super complicated financial engineering

37:13

thing. I want a documentary or like a

37:15

movie, you know, they could put Ryan Gosling

37:17

or whoever in it. That's the thing that

37:19

I want as the the end of the

37:21

sort of VMware thing. I like it. So

37:23

the author there, Michael Lewis, right, blindside, you

37:26

know, wrote the SBF book as well, although.

37:28

I don't know bad. I would say bad

37:30

year for Michael Lewis. I think that asked,

37:32

look, that didn't age so well. It seems

37:34

like he, he may have, if we will,

37:36

using the metaphor from some of his other

37:38

books. He may have lost his fastball a

37:41

little bit. I think he is, because he

37:43

held on to it. He held onto it.

37:45

He held onto it. He held onto it.

37:47

He held onto it. He held onto it.

37:49

He held on to it. He held on

37:51

to be so mad. He held on. He's

37:54

got to just. held out for a couple

37:56

more years. Everybody would have been rich again,

37:58

and I wouldn't have had to go to

38:00

jail, even though I committed a bunch of

38:02

crimes. It is an incredible bad timing, bad

38:04

timing kind of story. But hey, you know,

38:06

when you commit fraud, you know, sometimes you

38:09

got to commit fraud in a bull market.

38:11

You know, that's what else can you do?

38:13

So hey, you know, he knows that better

38:15

than everyone. So all right. Well, that's interesting.

38:17

Well, you know, someone that won't be returning.

38:19

SPF, who'll actually be in jail for a

38:21

while, but return to the office and work

38:24

from home. That was a constant discussion amongst,

38:26

I would say, tech as well. So I'll

38:28

go first here. I'm just gonna say, I

38:30

put this in my spam filter, right? I'm

38:32

just like, I can't have any more of

38:34

these debates. I don't want to see any

38:37

more executives citing, you know, their own opinions

38:39

with virtually zero data, explaining why like it's

38:41

right. you can have an opinion on like

38:43

we should go into the office or we

38:45

can or we should allow people to work

38:47

from home but the entire discussion has just

38:49

become so disjoint and like there isn't any

38:52

like actual intellectual honesty about like when would

38:54

it make sense when would it make sense

38:56

when would it make sense when would it

38:58

not make sense and some tradeoffs and I

39:00

actually thought on a recent episode you guys

39:02

did you were talking about you know some

39:04

of the challenges like you and Aaron have

39:07

both decided in your Like maybe you do

39:09

have the core team at headquarters, maybe have

39:11

the new people at headquarters, but at the

39:13

same time too is I'm going to speak

39:15

for you and Aaron said something like you

39:17

guys made some life choices where it's like

39:20

hey we realize we're not necessarily going to

39:22

be the next CEO, but we're really valuable

39:24

and if you allow us to work from

39:26

home we'll work for you and you can

39:28

if you will benefit from our experience. There's

39:30

like a nice trade-off there right a very

39:32

simple thing and I think if you look

39:35

back pre-pandemic. There were so many teams that

39:37

I've worked on or worked with that were

39:39

sort of orchestrated like that. A core team

39:41

and maybe some experts in different areas or

39:43

people, it's always great to have a person

39:45

in Europe or a person in different location.

39:47

So you don't have to travel as much

39:50

when they want to go see customers. So.

39:52

The reason I put this in the spam

39:54

filter is like until we have conversations like

39:56

that, I just don't want to hear about

39:58

it anymore. I don't want to hear about

40:00

and I definitely don't want to read any

40:03

more executive emails or leaked memos with these

40:05

just one-size-fits-all which are so blatantly just it

40:07

takes no time. This is like in our

40:09

AWS meeting after they criticize us for calling

40:11

them the legacy CEO. They'll probably come after

40:13

us for this. I'll be like, come on.

40:15

I didn't even make a garment, come on,

40:18

you know this isn't intellectually honest, right? I

40:20

mean, you can still have everyone work in

40:22

the office, but we know this isn't really

40:24

true. So that's why I'm putting it in

40:26

the spam filter. But you have a softer

40:28

take, what's your take on this? Well, I'm

40:30

hoping that some company comes out with some

40:33

sort of study they've done on how many

40:35

people got promoted, and they were, and they're

40:37

just people that come into the kind of

40:39

the office, right. I want them to talk

40:41

about, you know, I want them to make

40:43

a whole thing. Remember when they used to

40:46

have like the best places to work? And

40:48

I think they still do that, right? Like

40:50

they, but it used to be like a

40:52

big deal. Companies were like, oh, we really

40:54

got to work hard, you know, and they

40:56

make videos about it. I want some company

40:58

to just go over the top about how

41:01

awesome they are. Not that you need to

41:03

return, but like, people have been back, and

41:05

the only thing they focus on. They focus

41:07

on. people have gotten promoted like everybody got

41:09

promoted and then you know something about something

41:11

about like some new cool thing that is

41:13

just about like the snacks snack area you

41:16

know something you know something just over the

41:18

top and you're like what does that have

41:20

to do with your business and they're like

41:22

there are so many new things that we've

41:24

discovered while being together that we did you

41:26

know like I want them to just kind

41:29

of go over the top as if like

41:31

oh no no I'm like almost like a

41:33

cult like I would like to start seeing

41:35

some of that start to happen because otherwise

41:37

Yeah, all you're going to do is get

41:39

the people who are like, I do have

41:41

been doing it great for four years. Like,

41:44

what am I, I don't know what I'm

41:46

doing wrong. I don't want to, I don't

41:48

need, I don't need more years of that,

41:50

but I do need people coming up with,

41:52

you know, things that are just so out

41:54

there, so over the time. that you're just

41:57

like, oh my God, I can't believe, you

41:59

know, and like, and it just creates like

42:01

a real estate boom, you know, people are

42:03

moving back, or, you know, just something along

42:05

like, I needed to go way, way, way,

42:07

way off the chart that you're just like,

42:09

oh my God, I can't believe, you know,

42:12

this is, this is how it's evolved. And,

42:14

you know, like, nobody expected this was going

42:16

to happen. Yeah, something along with you. I

42:18

like you just cheering for over-the-top content. That's

42:20

good. Maybe the creators, if TikTok doesn't get

42:22

created, uh, band, maybe it'll have to be

42:24

unreal. They just need to do like, you

42:27

know, just a day in the life of

42:29

the office needs to return. That was a

42:31

pretty popular genre. Just people walking around, showing

42:33

the snacks, showing the snacks, showing the computer,

42:35

just people walking around, showing the snacks, showing

42:37

the computer, that would be too... back in,

42:40

but otherwise I'm just, I'm not, I'm not,

42:42

I'm not going to, I'm out, I'm not

42:44

on office anymore. All right, and then the

42:46

final one on the tech side that we're

42:48

gonna talk about is Apple's AI cloud ambitions

42:50

or Apple's cloud ambitions as well. So I've

42:52

kind of given the softer take, I kind

42:55

of just put this in the archive categories,

42:57

like I think Apple's doing some interesting stuff.

42:59

they're pretty slow at it, right? As far

43:01

as rolling out all the AI features, I

43:03

think only in the past few weeks did

43:05

all the features they talked about in September

43:07

have now rolled out. So it's like, now

43:10

way they're becoming an enterprise software company. It's

43:12

like, oh yeah, it shows up like six

43:14

months later after you already thought you could

43:16

do it. So I do think though, the

43:18

reason I guess I sort of have an

43:20

archive and the reason I'm a little bit,

43:23

I maybe almost wanted to say I want

43:25

to say I want to pay attention to

43:27

pay attention to pay attention is just like

43:29

the number of the number of iPhones, just

43:31

make it such that like if Apple turns

43:33

anything on it has the potential to just

43:35

like reach billions of people overnight and probably

43:38

most people that have actually done anything with

43:40

AI probably have touched it through their iPhone

43:42

you know if you quote-unquote regular people so

43:44

kind of interesting but I've kind of put

43:46

in the archive category now you you've put

43:48

this in the spam filter why did you

43:50

do that? I don't think I've ever cared

43:53

Well, I shouldn't say that. Living in North

43:55

Carolina, we used to care a lot about

43:57

Apple because they were not only building data

43:59

centers here, which was good for our economy,

44:01

but they were going to build this gigantic,

44:03

gigantic facility here in RTP, which was going

44:06

to be good for the real estate market

44:08

and maybe potential jobs and all sorts of

44:10

stuff. That's all sort of falling apart. It's

44:12

kind of just, they just got forgotten over

44:14

COVID. So I'm back to being like, I

44:16

only care. about their devices and how I

44:18

use them and the only one I care

44:21

about is is like the phone the glass

44:23

still breaks and the phone is still a

44:25

thousand dollars and they want you to get

44:27

a new one every single year like there's

44:29

nothing and there's nothing new about it like

44:31

all they've done in the last year is

44:33

like they've broke the photos app like I

44:36

just want them to focus on just that

44:38

like make me a phone that doesn't break

44:40

and then I don't have to like you

44:42

know, don't have to get an upgrade to

44:44

it every two years and then restart the

44:46

thousand dollar, whatever mortgage payment that you have

44:49

to make. That's all I care about, right?

44:51

They can go off and, you know, the

44:53

dithering people can write about the glasses or

44:55

not the glasses or what, I don't care.

44:57

I just, I want, I want the, I

44:59

want the headphones to last a little longer.

45:01

Like I love those, they're great. And I

45:04

want the phone, I don't know. I just

45:06

want the phone to be more like a

45:08

you know, not break all the time and

45:10

not be so insane. Like, like, follow the

45:12

normal computer curve, like, get cheaper, progressively cheaper

45:14

over time, which it, you know, it hasn't

45:16

done. So that's the only part of Apple

45:19

I care about. I don't care about their

45:21

cloud. I don't care about their cloud. I

45:23

don't care about, I don't care about their

45:25

cloud. I don't care about, I don't care

45:27

about their cloud. I don't care about their

45:29

cloud. I don't know. I do love that

45:32

and I think I've mentioned this before or

45:34

I'm stealing somebody else's sort of thing like

45:36

it before like all the stuff they made

45:38

they were like look at how cool you

45:40

are that you're using Apple stuff right like

45:42

there was there was was the

45:44

original sort of of

45:47

the first phone came

45:49

out and it was

45:51

like it was got the

45:53

white headphones white like you're

45:55

dancing it was cool

45:57

and like everything is

45:59

these cool and like commercial

46:02

shot on an iPhone

46:04

and now it's just

46:06

like stupid people who

46:08

didn't do their homework people

46:10

know like using do their

46:12

to like you know

46:15

know on a meeting

46:17

or something you know like on

46:19

a meeting happened I'm like why what

46:21

happened like Yes, Yes, talking I'm referring to the

46:23

Apple commercials. Apple commercials. Yeah, creepy. like, They're kind

46:25

of pretty They're like, I don't really

46:27

know who you are, but let me

46:29

ask AI to remember who you like, meeting

46:31

with It's, it's you are, yeah, I would

46:33

agree. ask AI to remember who you are. add to

46:35

that. That's fantastic. with trying to raise the

46:37

bar yeah, I would agree. That way, like, I'm just

46:40

to summarize They as like, I I just

46:42

want the glass not to break. That's

46:44

to that's fantastic. Again, it's very, I think

46:46

a little bit of your teenage I would

46:48

is coming in there. It sounds like add

46:50

to that's a pretty creepy. broken creepy. of young teenagers and college

46:52

a college So, you know. All right, well know, all

46:54

right, well, listen, we're almost out of

46:56

time. We've got got through ones, but we're

46:58

going to, going we always like to like to

47:00

do, briefly about a little bit of

47:02

college football football. to set the stage here

47:04

just for all of our all of our

47:06

that don't like football. I still think

47:08

it's relevant. So don't so quite quite up

47:10

on up So that episode yet. Bill who is widely

47:12

considered the greatest NFL coach of all

47:15

time, has dropped down a level. He's

47:17

in fact taken a job very close

47:19

to you, Brian. He's from the University of North

47:21

Carolina. Carolina head coach. So So this is like for people that

47:23

are not familiar with it. It's like it. It's like is

47:25

going from from highest professional ranks ranks. to

47:27

kind of like, you know, a know, college at

47:29

college at football, but not a great

47:31

college football program. So a step a

47:33

step down. I was trying to think

47:35

of you know, an tech you know, an

47:37

tech equivalent is sort of like Scott

47:39

McNeely of Sun Fame the CEO of of Sun,

47:41

And then he he like of, you

47:43

know, know. that ended and went on to

47:45

on to some very small startup that like most of

47:47

of us have not heard of. of

47:49

I I the name of it. So

47:52

it's something along those lines. It's

47:54

a along those lines it's a huge change so as as

47:56

someone that lives very close to

47:58

the University of North Carolina, what and I'm

48:00

just going to speak for both of us. I'm

48:02

going to be watching this, of course. This is

48:04

double guard for me, right? I'm going to, what

48:06

do you think is going to do well, or

48:09

is he going to regret taking this job? No,

48:11

it's fantastic. And just to put a little more

48:13

context around it, their previous coach was a 73-year-old

48:15

guy who they decided to run out of town,

48:17

because he wasn't doing very well, you know, they

48:19

weren't winning enough. But you know the overwhelming thing

48:22

and it was getting set out loud like this

48:24

guy's too old he can't relate to 18 year

48:26

old kids how is he going to be able

48:28

to do all this stuff like there's a lot

48:30

of schmoozing Bill Bellicheck is 70. two years old,

48:32

so he's one year younger, he's historically a terrible

48:34

schmoozer, he doesn't like people, everybody who's ever very

48:37

grouchy, very grouchy, right, everybody who's ever played for

48:39

him is like, you know, his skill set is

48:41

not related to people. It's not, you know, it's

48:43

not doing all the like, you know, company dinners

48:45

and handshakes and all that kind of stuff. So

48:47

yeah, like we are around here, we are all

48:50

famously just wanting to see, you know, you know,

48:52

would be like John Chambers coming. So here's the

48:54

other thing. So I mean, Bellcheck is like considered

48:56

like the greatest, greatest of all time or like

48:58

one of the greatest like won the most championships

49:00

or whatever. The school he's going to hasn't won

49:03

a championship in 44 years. Right. So, you know,

49:05

he's not coming to a place that's a complete

49:07

rebuild for somebody who is. what should be 10

49:09

years into retirement? Again, he violates every rule that

49:11

we hold dear, which is like as soon as

49:13

you can get out and not have to work

49:15

and do all this stuff and take all the

49:18

money. But I do, because he is a rival

49:20

of my school, I do hope he flees his

49:22

their school, I hope he does terrible, I hope

49:24

it's just a complete mess. But yeah, no, it's

49:26

fantastic. I do, I am excited though, about the

49:28

prospect of Because there's so much money that's now

49:31

been accumulated by like certain like groups that they

49:33

all want there. They're all sort of like. longing

49:35

for the days of 20 years ago, 30 years

49:37

ago, 40 years ago, I think we should make

49:39

a list of who are the potential like CEOs

49:41

who could come back, right? Like I got to

49:44

imagine it's like old Larry Ellison, old John Chambers

49:46

from Cisco, you know, maybe Bill Gates should try

49:48

and come back and sort of take over Microsoft.

49:50

Yeah, like, like, this is good, uh-huh. I like

49:52

the idea that like, we're not, we're not going

49:54

to take any chances on new people. In fact.

49:56

Yeah, you know, maybe there was no invidia wasn't

49:59

was invidious started by Jensen or was there another

50:01

founder? One of three founders right so maybe they

50:03

consider bringing back the other founders that we don't

50:05

even really know to come back and look and

50:07

see if he's you know if he has like

50:09

they have a bad quarter, you know, which is

50:12

for Twitter or X bring back the founders of

50:14

Twitter they always right those guys. Yeah, all the

50:16

guys with one. Max in charge. Like it turns

50:18

out we should know. No, no bring back like

50:20

Biz. for yeah stone or yeah of Williams I

50:22

like it like this is a great like genre

50:24

I like or maybe you know Steve bomber and

50:27

he's like I can't I don't have time to

50:29

deal with this basketball anymore I got to get

50:31

back into Microsoft you know so yeah you've done

50:33

great but I got to get in here and

50:35

explain how developers developers developers developers that's right yeah

50:37

so I'm hoping this becomes a trend of like

50:40

you know people bringing back really really really not

50:42

just like marginally you know could do it but

50:44

like really really old people whose glory days were

50:46

at least you have to be at least a

50:48

decade removed from your your last glory day and

50:50

then you could come back and save something that

50:53

you know it isn't ready to be saved doesn't

50:55

have the resources to be successful I love I

50:57

love when when when people are like that none

50:59

of this math will work none of this logic

51:01

works but that's that's where we want to go

51:03

with it so yeah it's going to be a

51:05

beautiful a beautiful disaster I think Well said, could

51:08

not have said it better myself, a beautiful disaster.

51:10

Well with that, thanks a lot for coming on

51:12

today, Brian. Brian, where can people hear more of

51:14

you and Aaron? We are, well we're over on

51:16

the cloudcast, so you know, I think it's the

51:18

cloudcast pod now on all the socials and the

51:21

cloudcast net on the internet. and you're on once

51:23

a month. So on once a

51:25

month. So know that you guys give

51:27

a nice show. I know

51:29

that you guys on to do

51:31

a nice plug once a

51:33

month And we have

51:36

you and Aaron, if you want to talk

51:38

So them, they're in the slack. There's a channel

51:40

in there. and in you want

51:42

to talk to them

51:44

They're in the There's There's

51:46

a in in there a can

51:49

in there. There's a channel in the

51:51

sports channel, but they're

51:53

also in their own a channel.

51:55

So you can you

51:57

can talk to a about

51:59

sports a you can talk

52:02

to them about the There's a

52:04

channel. There's a channel. There's a else

52:06

you want a like There's a channel.

52:08

like Brian has lots

52:10

of tips on parenting There's a

52:12

channel. There's a. thing you can

52:14

ask him a. well. I

52:17

don't know if I

52:19

do it. Well, but yeah

52:21

a. There's a. There's a. to share

52:23

tips Perfect. All right, with that, right

52:25

with that if you've

52:27

enjoyed today's episode make sure

52:30

to If you you'd like

52:32

to see the show notes

52:34

go to software to find talk.com/49. I

52:36

hope everyone hope everyone Christmas. And you're

52:38

a milestone. Yeah, we're close. we're close

52:40

gonna be an exciting up

52:43

episode of software to find you

52:45

can listen to you soon

52:47

So hopefully we've tied you

52:49

over between Christmas and

52:51

New tied you over hopefully you

52:53

had fun And with that

52:55

Year's. And talk to you

52:58

next time So,