0:00

I think it's very important if you're trying to build an alternative

0:02

, it's not just saying oh here we're

0:04

on this island and this island is terrible , we need to

0:06

get off this island . We're going to go to this other island

0:09

and all the other master swimmers

0:11

follow me . That's great . So

0:13

the three of you are on the other island . Everyone else is drowned

0:15

. You need to build a bridge , and

0:18

that's how I see the small web as a bridge between

0:20

you know , the centralized web that we live

0:22

in and kind of the decentralized world we want

0:25

to get to .

0:26

That's a hell of a swim , a hell

0:28

of a journey .

0:29

Well , hopefully it's not going to be a swim , that's the thing

0:31

, that's okay . Let's hope to get the bridge . Like

0:34

we might have to swim over there to build

0:36

the other leg of the bridge , but

0:38

you know , I mean , we're really stretching

0:40

the analogy .

0:42

Hello and welcome to Developers

0:44

Journey , the podcast bringing you the making

0:46

of stories of successful software

0:48

developers to help you on your

0:50

upcoming journey . I'm your host , tim

0:52

Borghigno . On this episode , I

0:55

receive Aral Balkan . Aral

0:57

is a developer , professional speaker , consultant

0:59

and serial entrepreneur . He

1:02

has love for programming and learning new programming

1:04

languages and a passion for simplicity

1:07

, oh and and and drink , fondness

1:09

for visual and experience design . He's

1:11

also a tireless advocate of open

1:14

source and creative comments , and he is

1:16

immensely passionate about the internet's

1:18

potential for individual empowerment

1:20

, education and the democratization

1:23

of communication and self expression , and

1:25

I've seen him on stage talk about this

1:27

. He is a hit about it . Aral

1:30

, welcome to Journey .

1:33

Thanks to you . Thank you for having me , tim oh it's my pleasure .

1:35

It's been a long time in the making and then we saw each other a few

1:37

months ago at a conference and I say I have to

1:40

have you on the show , I'm

1:42

glad it's finally happening and yes , it has happened

1:44

. But before we come to your

1:46

story , I want to thank the terrific

1:49

listeners who support the show . Every month you

1:52

are keeping the Dev Journey lights

1:54

up . If you would like to join

1:56

this fine crew and help me spend

1:59

more time on finding phenomenal

2:01

guests than editing audio tracks

2:03

, please go to our website

2:05

, devjourneyinfo and

2:07

click on the support me on Patreon

2:09

button . Even the smallest

2:11

contributions are giant steps toward

2:14

a sustainable Dev Journey journey

2:17

. Thank you , and now back

2:19

to today's guest . So

2:21

, aral . As you know , the show exists to help the listeners

2:24

understand what your story looked like and imagine

2:26

how to shape their own future . So

2:28

, as is usual on the show , let's go back to

2:30

your beginnings . Where would you place the start of your Dev Journey

2:32

?

2:33

The start of my Dev Journey . So

2:36

I was seven years old and

2:38

my dad brought home an IBM

2:40

PC compatible I am that

2:42

old and placed

2:44

it in front of me along with a

2:46

basic manual and

2:49

he said you know one of the most important

2:51

things that I've heard in my life . He said

2:53

go on , play with it , you can't

2:55

break it . And

2:58

that's such a powerful thing to say . I did , I

3:00

did break it . Challenge accepted . I did break it . Yeah

3:02

, challenge accepted , exactly . I

3:04

did break it a little while later , but

3:07

with fire and smoke . But

3:09

yeah , if

3:11

your dad tells you not to plug in the

3:14

co-processor , the math co-processor

3:16

that you bought on your trip to Singapore because

3:18

you got the wrong one , don't plug

3:20

it in , even if it fits . You know

3:23

, seven year old me is like what does he know ? It

3:25

fits , it must work right , turn it on

3:27

, boom , oh yeah , smoke and fire

3:29

. And

3:31

the worst part of it is I blamed him because

3:33

I was so afraid of him . I was so afraid

3:36

of him . I mean like he wasn't

3:38

abusive or anything , he's a lovely guy , but

3:40

you know he had a voice on him and

3:42

I was afraid that . You know this is an expensive

3:44

, you know , computer back then , especially

3:46

so I told him

3:49

hey , remember that paper clip you

3:51

dropped into the computer last

3:53

week while we were working on . It Must

3:55

have shorted something , because you know

3:57

, and he felt so guilty , he

4:00

got me another

4:02

one ?

4:03

Did you come straight with it , or is it the first one Like

4:06

?

4:06

decades later . Okay , otherwise

4:09

you can send me . I was

4:11

like , by the way , here's a funny story

4:14

while

4:16

stepping away yeah , no , but

4:18

it was a very powerful thing to say because

4:21

it just

4:23

, um , it was the it was . It

4:25

basically meant that you know , I

4:27

had this tool that

4:30

I could play with , that I wasn't afraid of , and

4:32

that's very important you know , because even

4:35

today these things are , you know , to some

4:37

degree expensive maybe . But

4:39

just to say , you can make things with

4:41

this . You can play , not work , play

4:44

. You can play with this . And

4:46

it was amazing , I could

4:49

make , you know . I could write a few lines of code

4:51

and I could have a star field . I

4:53

could write a few more and I could have a spaceship

4:55

and I'd be flying through my own universe . And

4:57

I was seven years old . You

4:59

know , that's amazing . That

5:02

spark stays with you forever . But

5:04

I think it's also very important for

5:06

us to understand that that was

5:09

a different era , that

5:11

I was lucky enough to have

5:13

been basically born into the

5:15

era of the personal computer and

5:18

that was the last time that we

5:20

actually owned and controlled our

5:23

own technology . That was

5:25

the last era in which these were

5:27

just tools and nothing more

5:29

. You know that computer didn't

5:32

watch everything I was doing and then

5:34

reported to some faceless corporation

5:36

on the other side of the planet . That computer

5:38

was not trying to analyze me . It

5:41

wasn't trying to understand how

5:43

I was feeling , what emotional state

5:45

I was in , so that it could manipulate my behavior

5:47

so that again we could raise the

5:49

profits and increase the profits

5:52

of some corporations somewhere , and

5:54

what's really sad is today

5:57

that is the business model of

5:59

mainstream technology . So

6:01

today , depending on

6:03

what I was giving my child , if I

6:06

had a child , I would be perhaps

6:09

far more concerned and

6:11

I maybe wouldn't say here , take it , do whatever

6:13

you want with it , you can't break it . That

6:15

part of it might be true , but it could break you right

6:18

, because it's not necessarily a safe

6:20

space . That computer my dad

6:22

gave me was a safe space that I could play

6:24

in , I could learn in , I could use it as a tool

6:26

. And we've lost that with

6:29

the business model of mainstream technology and

6:32

that actually is leaping

6:34

forward many , many decades . But

6:36

that is why I

6:38

do what I do today in a

6:40

lot of ways , which is we

6:43

need to have a version of

6:45

that in the internet

6:47

age . We can't

6:50

go back to those days . Some people want to go back

6:52

to those days , you know , and

6:54

it's great and I get it . I get the nostalgia

6:56

, you know , I pull up old games and I play

6:59

them sometimes , but that age is

7:01

gone . But we can have a version

7:03

of it with a global network

7:06

that we have today , in

7:08

which our technologies are again just

7:10

tools , they're not trying to exploit

7:13

us .

7:14

And .

7:14

I think that's very key . It's key to human

7:16

rights , it's key to democracy

7:18

.

7:19

It is indeed , and pulling the Wi-Fi

7:21

cable is not the solution .

7:23

It is not the solution , no

7:26

, no no , you know

7:28

, some people may want to be hermits

7:30

and live out in the middle of nowhere with

7:32

no technology and you know , more

7:34

power to them . We also have to defend

7:36

the right for people to not use

7:38

technology if they don't want to . So

7:41

it's very important , I think , that we have ways

7:43

of doing things that don't require someone to do it

7:45

on a computer , for example , as a fallback

7:47

, possibly , but also to say , look

7:49

, you're not forced into these systems , especially

7:52

if a lot of these systems today are quite toxic

7:54

, especially if today , a lot of these systems

7:57

are exploitative . It's very important

7:59

that we have other means of doing things . But

8:02

yeah , but we're not going to go back on mass

8:05

. So we need

8:07

to find ways of going forward differently

8:09

, in better ways . I'm

8:12

going to show the discussion back toward

8:14

your childhood , but I'm sure we're going to come closer to 7

8:16

.

8:19

One thing I'm really bummed about is that modern technology is

8:21

a very important tool for the future . Devices

8:24

I'm not going to say computers , I'm going to say device Don't

8:27

bring this basic

8:29

programming language environment

8:31

like they used to do . So this is not

8:34

even an option . If you buy an iPad

8:36

nowadays , you don't have a

8:38

mean to start programming unless

8:40

you go onto websites , and

8:42

there isn't really a supported

8:45

by Apple way of really

8:47

starting this and embracing this

8:49

from the get go . Is it Is there .

8:51

Well , I mean , there is like swift playgrounds

8:54

, for example . I haven't played with

8:56

it for a long time , but

8:58

that might be possibly one

9:00

alternative . I don't know if you've seen it

9:02

or played with it .

9:03

Just know about it , but I find it so

9:06

obscure and not publicized

9:08

as one of the main aspects

9:10

.

9:10

Right , Well , because , again

9:13

, an iPhone is for

9:15

the most part a consumption device , like

9:18

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree and go well , you

9:20

can create so many things with it . Yes , you can , of

9:22

course you can . But I'm saying primarily

9:25

it's a consumption device . And even

9:27

in terms of your creation , if it's like

9:29

you're creating videos for TikTok

9:32

or this or that or whatever it is you're doing , it's

9:35

not necessarily the same as programming or

9:37

creating TikTok . I mean , don't create

9:39

TikTok , because TikTok is again one of these surveillance

9:42

capitalist applications

9:44

and it's exploitative and it's based

9:47

on , you know , surveilling

9:49

, you and all of that . But you know what

9:51

I mean . So

9:53

, yeah , you're right , back then you

9:56

were actually thrown into the tools

9:58

by which the software on these devices

10:00

was made . And you

10:02

know , the devices themselves may have still been proprietary

10:05

, the hardware itself might

10:07

have still been proprietary , but at least you could build software

10:10

for it . And that was just

10:12

something that you almost had to do . And

10:15

in the earliest days especially , you

10:18

know , I started making my own games , because the

10:21

IBM didn't have games . You know

10:23

, you played Alley Cat , you played DigDug , maybe

10:25

, and at the very early days , you know

10:28

, then you had to build your own . So , yeah

10:31

, there's something to be said about that and I think there

10:33

are initiatives like . I

10:36

was actually involved in a one

10:38

of these code club

10:40

well , actually in code club itself

10:42

in the UK . It was this

10:45

coding school

10:48

for kids that we started

10:50

up the two founders

10:52

and Claire and

10:54

Linda and I was helping them

10:57

and I was on the board of directors , etc

10:59

. And the whole idea was , you

11:01

know , to spark this initial

11:03

spark in kids . You know , to like

11:05

this initial spark in kids , and

11:08

that's how it started . We were using Scratch

11:10

. So Scratch is a good tool for that

11:12

. There are some , you know , better tools

11:15

as well that enable you to go from a

11:17

visual environment into a

11:20

textual environment and help you

11:22

along that path . But

11:24

you know what happened very quickly , again

11:27

, unfortunately , this is so unfortunate . It

11:30

started out well and then , you

11:32

know , google came on onto the stage

11:34

and we had a huge

11:37

disagreement between the

11:39

founders and

11:41

because one of the co founders

11:43

, linda , and I again I was on the board

11:45

of directors we were like , no

11:47

, we can't normalize

11:49

Google to kids , right , we can't

11:51

normalize Google's business model , surveillance

11:54

based business model to kids . So

11:57

we were very against it

11:59

. One of the co founders was like no , no , they're

12:01

fine , it's great , don't worry about it . So

12:03

you know we resigned . And then

12:06

Raspberry Pi sorry

12:08

, bought them and

12:10

along with , I think , the other coding like Coder

12:12

Dojo I think they bought that one as well . So

12:15

, and when you talk about Raspberry Pi

12:17

, these are the folks you know . We love their little devices

12:19

. I've got a bunch of them in my drawer . But

12:21

they're the same people who very recently

12:23

were bragging about hiring

12:25

a spy cop , and

12:27

when people called them out on it , they were like , oh

12:29

, this is just a conspiracy against us . It's like

12:32

no dude , like don't hire a spy cop and then

12:34

be proud about it . And

12:37

again , don't normalize this to kids

12:39

. This is the thing

12:41

, like you know it's . It's in

12:44

a lot of ways . Maybe it was never a

12:46

more naive

12:48

time or I don't know a better

12:51

time , but at least I

12:53

guess people were solving some of the big problems

12:56

back then and they didn't have time

12:58

to , kind of , you know , spend

13:02

their CPU cycles on doing

13:04

evil . It wasn't that they didn't want to be

13:06

evil , maybe they just didn't have time for that yet

13:08

. They were trying to solve things like how do we

13:10

make this thing , you know , actually play video

13:12

, or when the internet

13:14

is really , really expanded the

13:20

field and it was a far worse , but

13:23

is the far worse still and yeah , and of course

13:25

it's not the technology

13:27

. you know , Melvin Cranesberg has

13:30

a quote about this , saying technology

13:32

is neither good nor bad , nor

13:35

is it neutral , and so that last

13:37

bit that's really important . It wasn't necessarily

13:40

the technology itself , you know . So

13:42

we , I said we had the personal computer era that I

13:44

was born into , and then what happened is

13:47

, of course , we got the internet and

13:49

we got the web , and

13:51

a lot of people think

13:53

that the web and the internet were decentralized

13:56

, and this is false

13:58

. So the personal

14:00

computing era was the last time that

14:02

we actually had decentralized technology

14:04

. Think about it right . You owned and

14:06

controlled your tools and everyone

14:08

had their own right , and then could you communicate

14:11

with each other ? You couldn't a rudimentary way

14:13

. You had modems , for example

14:15

, etc . Whatever if you wanted to

14:17

. But

14:20

with the web it looked

14:22

decentralized at the beginning because

14:24

there were relatively more

14:27

people who ran their own servers

14:29

on the web , because it was an academic

14:31

institution initially , as it started . I mean , it was big in

14:34

academia . So people ran their own servers

14:37

and you know if there

14:39

were maybe 200 people on the web at some point , maybe

14:41

there were . You know there were

14:43

150 servers run by 150

14:45

of them . Maybe a couple of them , shared it or

14:47

something , so it looked decentralized , but

14:49

it never was . It was always clients

14:51

and server . And what happened was we got

14:53

this huge injection of venture capital when

14:56

people saw the potential of these

14:58

servers to scale to become

15:00

the centers that today we call

15:02

Google or Yahoo or Snapchat

15:05

or whatever . So it

15:08

was . We have to understand technology

15:11

within the socioeconomic

15:13

environment in which

15:15

it exists and which

15:18

creates it . So

15:20

the reason the web blew up

15:22

was you know , we hear the story

15:24

Tim Burners-Lee made

15:27

it open and that's why it blew

15:29

up . He made it open . He didn't make it free and

15:31

open , he didn't make it . He didn't release

15:33

it under a GPL license , for example

15:36

, or a share alike license

15:38

, and that was why it grew up . It blew up

15:40

because venture capitalists saw

15:42

that they could actually own , they could

15:44

enclose parts of it

15:46

, right , they wouldn't have to give back

15:48

. And that's how we got the Googles

15:50

and the Facebooks and all of these , because

15:53

these servers scaled

15:55

. And now , of course , they're server farms and

15:58

you know , when people talk about server farms , I

16:00

always ask them you know , just stop for a moment

16:02

and think about who's being farmed in

16:05

these places , because it's you . But yeah

16:08

, so that was the

16:11

second era , like the

16:13

network era , and that was actually centralized

16:16

. And I think now we're at

16:18

a point where at least some of us , like

16:20

me , are working on going

16:22

forward to a version of decentralization

16:26

that exists within

16:28

a world that contains this global

16:31

network . So what does that look like

16:33

? And that's what you know

16:35

. That's why I'm working on the small , on trying

16:37

to create the small web , and

16:40

on small tech , as I call it .

16:44

Do you ? Shall we get there ? Do

16:47

you want to ? Yes , absolutely . I mean

16:49

, how you got there in terms of your story

16:51

might be fascinating as well , but here you have

16:53

something unique and I want to poke at that

16:55

.

16:56

Well , and yeah , yeah , I mean sure

16:58

we can also talk about the process , because

17:00

I think the process is important . It wasn't like I

17:02

was seven years old , this little

17:04

spoiled brat growing up in Malaysia

17:07

then , which is what I was privileged little

17:09

spoiled brat growing up in

17:11

Malaysia , you know , making games for himself

17:13

in a hedonistic way , just like you

17:16

know . That was how I started , right

17:18

. There's nothing to be really kind

17:20

of applauded about , that . I was

17:22

just a lucky kid . And

17:25

but then afterwards , like maybe

17:27

in the next decade or so , I kind of realized

17:30

that the stuff I make other people use

17:32

and when I started working

17:34

more professionally with

17:36

this stuff and I did

17:38

actually quit I quit computers when I was 13

17:40

for a few years- Okay

17:44

, wait a second .

17:45

What ?

17:45

happened there . So

17:47

I remember I

17:49

was making a game in C

17:52

I think I was programming in C at the time

17:54

and I was making a game and

17:56

I'd spent so much time on it , like

17:58

weeks and weeks and weeks and maybe even

18:00

months and you know when you're that age , that's a long

18:02

time . And I got one of

18:04

the first computer viruses

18:07

, c brain , and

18:09

it wiped everything that I had . And

18:11

so that taught me a couple of things , you know . One

18:13

was have backups . I

18:15

learned that at that age , but

18:18

it just felt like my whole . I remember I was sitting

18:20

, it was a summer's day and I'm sitting

18:22

at home with the curtains

18:25

drawn because CRT monitors and

18:27

glare and everything right , I don't want the glare

18:29

. So I'm in the dark on this beautiful summer's

18:31

day and

18:33

everything I was working

18:35

on for months just got erased . It

18:38

was just gone and I remember

18:40

I just stopped . I felt like I died or something

18:42

. You know , it's just like a piece of me had died and

18:45

I stopped . I

18:48

remember I opened the curtains , I looked outside

18:50

and I was like what the fuck

18:53

am I doing ? There's like a whole

18:55

world out there and I'm stuck in here feeling

18:57

like crap , feeling like

18:59

I'm dying inside . And so

19:01

I literally I stepped away from the computer and I didn't touch

19:04

it for another maybe a year or so

19:06

or maybe a little longer . So

19:09

yeah , I know , but then what

19:11

really retires me , you

19:13

took you back . I think it was just

19:15

in general , I mean more like it was becoming

19:18

more of a thing for school and

19:20

this and that , and I always

19:22

loved it . So I

19:24

guess I , yeah , I started

19:27

back up and then , when I was in my early

19:29

20s or so , I think , I got my first like consulting

19:31

gig and

19:34

we were building a virtual school like

19:36

the world's first virtual school . I think it was called K-12

19:40

. I was in the States for my master's degree

19:42

at the time and

19:44

, yeah , and then I kind of realized , well , people

19:47

are using the things that we're building and

19:49

I really started concentrating on design

19:51

. So I was like we need

19:53

I was very naive as well . I was like if we build

19:55

these beautiful experiences , that'll improve

19:57

everyone's lives and everything will be great

20:00

and flowers in your hair will be dancing

20:02

in the fields and it'll be so nice . Not

20:06

once thinking about , like

20:08

, the business models or not once thinking

20:10

about the greater kind of economic factors

20:12

at play , and

20:15

so for a while I was just concentrating

20:17

on design , because I naively thought everyone

20:19

was just like trying to build

20:22

these tools that helped people and

20:25

I only very slowly started realizing

20:27

, no , wait a minute , when Google

20:29

creates a product , it's actually creating

20:32

two products . Every Google

20:34

product is two products . There's the product that

20:36

people use everyday people use

20:38

because they get some sort of value out

20:40

of it . That might be the mail aspect

20:43

of Gmail , it might be the docs

20:45

aspect of Google docs . But there's

20:47

another product on

20:49

there at the same time and that's what's watching

20:52

them and mining them and exploiting

20:54

them , et cetera . So it's hard work actually

20:56

. Hats off . Hats off to the

20:58

surveillance capitalists . They have a hard job

21:01

for every product they have

21:03

to build to , and then they have to make sure

21:05

the people who are using them are not aware of the

21:07

second product . They must not see the

21:10

wizard behind the curtain . So

21:13

it's a hard job . I don't envy

21:15

it , I don't respect it , but it's

21:17

a hard job . So

21:20

, yeah , that's when I started . I

21:23

slowly started seeing this and then I think it was the

21:25

Edward Snowden revelations

21:27

that really brought it to the forefront and really

21:29

kind of showed me wow , this

21:32

is . I mean , this sort of exploitation is horrible anyway

21:34

, but it has a real effect

21:37

on human rights , on democracy , and

21:39

we're seeing that today . We saw that

21:41

afterwards with Cambridge Analytica . We saw Trump

21:43

getting elected , we saw Boris Johnson getting

21:45

elected . We

21:49

saw the effects that this has

21:51

. We saw the effect it has in pushing people towards

21:53

the right , and we have a huge problem with that . Right

21:55

now , with fascism on the rise everywhere

21:57

across the planet , you can't

21:59

even list countries anymore . It's

22:01

take too long , it's

22:04

getting around , it is , it is , and

22:08

so this system is not . It's not an

22:10

ethical system , it's

22:13

not a sustainable system . It's

22:15

a system in which we have a handful of it's created , a handful

22:18

of billionaires most

22:21

of them absolute douchebags , if

22:24

not all and at

22:26

the detriment of everyone else . So

22:28

I quickly started realizing

22:31

this is not what I want to be a part

22:33

of , this is not what I want to contribute to , and

22:36

it's easier said than done . Then they

22:38

call it the mainstream for a reason . So

22:41

, yeah , at some point I basically decided look

22:43

, I'm just gonna devote myself to trying to

22:47

build an alternative to this . Whether

22:49

or not I can , I don't know , but

22:52

at least I can try . And that's when we

22:54

found it . Initially it was called Indie

22:56

for independent , because it really is all

22:58

about how you're following

23:00

and it is all about how you're funded . If

23:03

we took venture capital , we wouldn't be able to

23:05

do what we're doing . We'd have much

23:07

more comfortable lives , but

23:09

we wouldn't be able to do what we're

23:11

doing . So

23:13

, and then we changed the

23:16

name a few years ago when we moved to

23:18

Ireland , to Small Technology Foundation . As

23:20

we , over the last 10 years , I've kind of been looking

23:22

into this problem and trying to understand what

23:25

could be not just a solution one

23:27

solution but one solution

23:29

that can be affected by someone

23:31

who has very limited resources

23:33

. One person coding

23:36

, that's statistically

23:39

. That doesn't exist . If

23:41

we're talking about the world in general , you shouldn't

23:44

wait , in balance , you mean . Exactly , exactly

23:46

. So

23:49

, yeah , that's what brought me to working on the

23:51

Small Web and Small Technology with

23:53

Laura .

23:55

Wow , before we get there , how

23:58

do you apprehend such

24:00

a problem ? I mean , this is one of the biggest

24:03

problems there is currently , probably

24:05

with some

24:07

economic problems in the

24:09

third world , with some health problems

24:11

and with some energy problems and the climate

24:13

, not to forget the climate . But

24:16

how do you face this and not just stare

24:19

at it and just say , wow , I have no idea

24:21

where to start . How did you approach that ?

24:23

Well , I mean staring at it and going I

24:25

have no idea where to start is a very

24:28

valid reaction because it is

24:30

such a big problem . All of those problems

24:32

you listed are also interconnected

24:34

. They all stem from systemic

24:36

inequality . They all stem from an unsustainable

24:39

system and

24:41

climate change . We get rid of the billionaires

24:44

. We're going to be along the way to fixing climate

24:46

change if we could do that . Yeah

24:50

, I

24:53

guess the bit where I

24:56

was , I don't know . I guess it's lucky . I don't

24:58

know if you can say lucky , if you can use that term

25:00

within this context , but

25:03

I'm lucky enough that I can do something

25:05

about it . So a

25:08

lot of people see the problem and

25:10

a lot of people try to articulate the problem , which

25:12

is how I started trying to tackle it . First

25:14

of all , I did a lot of talks

25:16

. Back then I did an RSA talk

25:19

in the UK . There

25:22

are videos of me speaking to the BBC . They

25:24

did a surveillance capitalism bit , et cetera

25:26

, whatever . So I was like my initial thought was people

25:29

don't know , and if we can

25:31

just tell people and

25:33

explain it as simply as possible

25:35

what's at stake , that this isn't just some

25:37

geeky issue , that this affects

25:40

human rights , this affects democracy , if

25:42

we can just articulate it well

25:44

enough , then of course , they're going

25:46

to take action Again . I'm

25:49

very naive . I

25:51

approach things naively . I don't think this is a problem

25:53

. This is not something I'm looking to change . I

25:57

don't think naive is a bad thing . Naive

25:59

just means you approach things as they should

26:01

be , as you expect them to be , in

26:03

a world that works properly . There's

26:05

nothing wrong with that . So

26:07

I'm not getting rid of that aspect of my personality

26:10

, because if you do that , I think you become jaded

26:12

, and I don't want to be jaded . So

26:15

I approach things naively . Same in design

26:17

. I approach things naively and they usually lie

26:19

to me . It's

26:21

fine , that's how you become a better designer

26:24

. And same with this . So

26:28

once

26:30

I realize and I've spoken twice at

26:32

the European Parliament about this issue

26:34

, I even joined a political

26:37

movement at some point because I was like this is not just a technological

26:39

issue , it's a political and socioeconomic

26:42

issue . So maybe we can do and

26:44

, to be perfectly honest , I'm done talking

26:46

. I know this is quite ironic , since

26:48

we're talking and

26:51

I don't truly 100% believe that I

26:54

mean , it's not one thing that's going to fix

26:56

this issue and no matter

26:58

how many lines of code I write , I'm not going to fix

27:00

this issue , because it's not an issue that can be fixed

27:02

just with code . We need

27:05

the political aspect , we need the

27:07

educational aspect , we need people

27:09

to be activists and we need people to

27:11

be talking about this , and that's partly why I'm also

27:13

talking to you about it right now , instead of coding , not

27:16

only because I broke my hand playing

27:19

tennis .

27:20

Showing a nice , a nice , a nice hand

27:22

. I know ?

27:22

Yeah , that's , if you're going to see this on a , you're going to hear

27:24

this on a podcast . I'm showing my cast hand

27:27

in a cast playing

27:29

tennis , tripping over my own feet first

27:31

broken bone at 47 . Been

27:34

skating my whole life . I ride a one

27:36

wheel , nothing , no tennis Anyway

27:38

. So so

27:42

you were saying , don't say talking . I'm

27:45

talking .

27:46

Clearly not .

27:48

Clearly not so

27:50

. But yeah , I basically decided look , other

27:53

people can talk to and

27:55

I don't mean this in , I'm not judging

27:57

Like some people will , I'm sure

27:59

even articulate the question better than I have

28:02

and more power

28:04

to them , and I hope they keep doing that . Not

28:06

everyone can actually code something . That

28:08

could be an alternative . And

28:11

I think what I've realized is you

28:13

can't fight every fire . You have to pick

28:15

and choose your battles . And so

28:18

at some point I was like , okay , where can I be most

28:20

effective ? And

28:23

also I was always during this decade , I was

28:25

thinking like what is the solution to this ? And

28:28

initially I was like we'll create a phone and it'll be great

28:30

and it'll be a free and open source phone

28:32

and they'll have all the software . And it's like

28:34

, yeah , okay , you

28:37

, and what money ? Right ? So we actually

28:39

started off on that before realizing

28:41

, okay , no , we can't do this without

28:44

the kind of venture capital or whatever that it would

28:46

take to get it off the ground . We

28:49

tried crowdfunding and this and that and it was

28:51

too big a problem . 10

28:53

years later , now we're just

28:56

starting to see free and open source phones and

28:58

they do again , not a judgment

29:01

at all but they do the bare minimum that a phone should be

29:03

doing right now . It's not

29:05

like they also have their own app suites or the things

29:07

that . So you buy a free and open source phone

29:09

, but if you still have

29:11

to use Google , then you haven't really fixed the problem right . So

29:14

it's a big problem . So

29:16

I started narrowing down , narrowing down

29:18

my focus and

29:21

finally realized , look , we

29:23

need people to own and control their own

29:26

means of communication . So how

29:28

can we best do that with the resources

29:30

that we have ? And

29:32

that's what led me to the idea of the small web , which is very simple

29:34

. The small web is a very simple idea , right ? What

29:39

if each one of us owned and

29:41

controlled our own place on the web ? And

29:45

this would be a place that wouldn't require technical

29:47

knowledge for us to set it up or to maintain it . We

29:50

could be public there , just like we can

29:53

, say , on Mastodon or on

29:55

some other network , so

29:57

we could have public posts or on Facebook

29:59

or whatever . But we could also

30:02

be private . We

30:04

could also communicate privately

30:06

, actually privately , not Facebook privately . So

30:08

Facebook private is you , me and Mark Zuckerberg

30:11

. So

30:14

actual private is you and me , no

30:16

, mark Zuckerberg . And

30:19

so basically , that

30:21

leads you to a peer-to-peer

30:23

design . The

30:26

problem with peer-to-peer as it

30:28

exists today is twofold discoverability

30:31

and availability . These

30:33

are issues common to every peer-to-peer network how

30:36

do I find you and

30:39

how do I guarantee that

30:42

you will get my message when I send you a message

30:44

or a photo or whatever ? And there are ways of

30:46

solving these issues , and every peer-to-peer network

30:48

solves them in pretty much

30:50

the same way , which , at the end of the

30:52

day , relies on some sort of a centralized

30:55

server somewhere that's always online

30:57

for signaling or for guaranteeing the quality

30:59

of that communication . We

31:02

see this with WebRTC , we

31:04

see it with any sort of peer-to-peer network , or it suffers

31:06

for those two aspects , neither of

31:08

which are things that people are going to expect

31:14

or accept . In a world where you go on Facebook

31:16

, it's always there pretty much , you can always

31:18

reach your friends pretty much , and

31:21

people don't understand

31:24

that it's algorithmic . They don't understand

31:26

that all their friends who are following them don't see all

31:28

their posts , etc . But they think they do at least , so

31:30

they're fooled into that sense that they might

31:33

be . So in

31:35

order to combat this

31:38

, in order to have an alternative to this , you need a system that

31:40

is always available , that is easy

31:42

to find . So the Web is great

31:44

for that . We can use it differently , and

31:47

so that's what I'm building with the small Web A

31:49

system where anyone who is a peer-to-peer network , a

31:52

system where anyone

31:54

without technical knowledge will just be able to

31:57

go to a website , say , hey , I want this domain

31:59

and maybe

32:01

initially enter a credit card and

32:04

pay 10 euros a month , I don't know and

32:07

they get their own place and it can

32:09

communicate with everyone else's places . Of

32:11

course , this is free and open source . Every

32:13

aspect of it is free and open source , and

32:16

it may not have to be money . Part

32:18

of what I've realized again , I spoke twice at the European

32:21

Parliament and what I told them was look , we need an

32:23

alternative to venture capital . We

32:25

need a means of funding

32:27

these sort of initiatives that I'm working on , others

32:29

are working on from the commons for

32:31

the common good , because that's what we're doing it . So

32:34

we need an alternative to VC . It's

32:36

not something that should be government controlled . It

32:39

should be done by individuals , independent

32:41

organizations . But these independent organizations

32:44

should have certain rules that they have to

32:46

adhere to , that they can't sell out to a

32:48

Facebook or a Google once they become large

32:50

enough . Right , they have to keep working in the

32:52

interests of the commons and

32:55

it just kind of went flew right over their heads . They

32:58

were like we see his lips moving but

33:00

we don't understand what he's saying . So

33:04

we need funding for

33:06

this . And I kind of realized

33:08

, look , we did a pilot

33:10

project with the city of Ghent and

33:13

we went up to them and we were like , look , what

33:15

if all the citizens in Ghent

33:18

had their own place on the web and

33:20

you funded it right as

33:22

part of their ? They pay for stuff with their

33:24

taxes as part of that , but

33:26

it also would mean that they can use these places

33:28

to communicate securely with you , the

33:30

municipality . And

33:32

so we did a pilot when the government

33:35

was a progressive government in Ghent

33:37

, and then we

33:39

demonstrated it . Everyone was like , oh , this is

33:41

beautiful , this is lovely . And then a conservative government

33:43

came in and boom , our funding got cut

33:45

. So , all this to say , I've realized

33:48

that I've come to the conclusion again

33:50

that , you know , relying on these

33:52

political kind of institutions

33:55

for funding it's good for projects

33:58

. If you want to have an art

34:00

project to , you know , bring

34:02

attention to the

34:05

horrors of surveillance with a modern

34:07

art dance , then yes

34:09

, they'll fund it right . You want to

34:11

build a product , an alternative , that

34:13

requires ongoing work , but

34:15

not so much very bad at that

34:17

. So that's why I'm

34:20

building in an ability for it to exist

34:22

in the current system . So you

34:24

will like , we'll host one of these

34:27

hosts for these small websites and anyone

34:29

else can host theirs as well , and

34:31

ours will take payments and hopefully that

34:33

will keep Small Technology Foundation , our not-for-profit

34:36

, sustainable in the current

34:38

system .

34:43

So what you're suggesting is actually not flipping

34:45

the table on everything , it's actually

34:47

keeping some of the building

34:49

blocks you talked about , peter Chopier

34:52

, and centralization . Well , we cannot revoke

34:54

centralization , but we can like we

34:56

did for non-for-profit we can put

34:58

some stamps and some rules around it that

35:00

says this

35:03

is the value codex you're going to adhere

35:05

to and you're going to live through . And

35:08

if you do that , then the problem

35:10

of centralization , for-profit

35:12

plus VCs is not there anymore

35:15

. Right , I mean that's so .

35:16

My basic thing to the European Parliament was

35:18

like we could fund these things differently

35:21

, but they need to have certain rules so

35:23

that we don't do what we're doing today . Today we fund

35:25

technology in the European Union . We

35:28

fund startups , and what happens

35:30

? A startup is successful , it gets

35:32

bought by Google or Facebook . It's not

35:34

successful ? The EU taxpayer

35:37

foots the bill . So what have we become ? We've

35:40

become a free research

35:42

and development department for Silicon

35:44

Valley . Right , we take all the risk . They

35:46

get all the reward . That's

35:48

stupid . So let's

35:51

do better than that . Hopefully

35:53

, maybe one day we will , I don't know . But

35:55

that's why we're building like

35:57

. I'm building a commercial aspect

35:59

into it as well , and hopefully that

36:02

will mean that organizations like ours can be

36:04

sustainable . At least . The

36:06

thing about the small web is I'm designing it , so it doesn't

36:08

scale . So even this hosting

36:11

aspect , where it just

36:13

creates your own server for you , it's

36:15

not so . You get your own VPS

36:17

server at your own domain and

36:20

you get whatever application

36:22

is installed there . So we're going to have a social

36:25

network style thing that we're building

36:28

, but other people will be able to build

36:30

other things as well that get installed

36:32

there . So , again , the whole thing is free and open

36:34

, but so

36:36

I'm building an aspect of it where

36:38

you can actually pay 10 euros a

36:40

month , but a municipality

36:42

like Ghent could just mail out codes to

36:45

their citizens and they use that instead

36:47

. In the future , we might decide , hey , this should

36:49

be a human right . Everyone

36:52

should have their own place on the web , and this is important

36:54

for democracy . It's important for people to be able

36:56

to communicate without algorithms controlled

36:58

by douchebag billionaires and

37:02

deciding what they can see and what they can't see , filtering

37:04

their realities , deciding on what they can

37:06

say and what they can't say , which doesn't mean that

37:08

you get carte blanche to do whatever the heck you

37:11

want . It

37:13

just means you have your own place . If you go out there

37:15

, use that place and incite hatred or

37:17

incite people to violence , we

37:19

have a system of policing already in

37:21

society and that can kick in . We

37:23

don't need additional things to

37:26

surveil everyone or whatever . We're

37:29

just modeling . What I'm doing is I'm just modeling

37:31

the human being . We don't have that

37:34

aspect in technology today . If

37:37

we want to talk to one another you are

37:39

a person , I am a person we get together

37:41

, we talk . If some of us want to organize

37:43

and do something whether it's work or

37:46

plan a protest or do whatever

37:48

. We are individuals , we get together

37:50

and we're able to communicate . And

37:53

in situations where we

37:55

all have similar tools and

37:57

we're mostly equal , that's

38:00

where I think we have the most democratic potential

38:02

. In situations where that's not the case , think

38:04

of a corporation that has huge capital

38:06

costs , that

38:09

has machinery that the employees don't

38:11

have , that they've invested millions and millions

38:13

in , so you have to go work for that corporation

38:16

, right , and the

38:18

power differential there is big . The

38:20

corporation has all the power . You as an employee

38:22

don't have a lot of power , right

38:25

. What if everyone had the same tools ? I'm

38:27

not talking about manufacturing , I'm talking about communication

38:30

. I'm talking about the ability to organize

38:32

. Right now , facebook has a

38:34

lot of the tools , or

38:36

TikTok or Google . What

38:39

if we democratize that so that everyone

38:41

had the tools and could

38:43

communicate ? Then it would be a much more egalitarian

38:45

sort of society . I think that's much

38:47

better for democracy , so we're

38:50

not beholden to these gatekeepers .

38:52

Yeah , amen to that . So we spoke

38:54

a lot about the history and

38:57

the projection in the future . If

39:00

I go into the small web right

39:02

now , what can I do with it and what's

39:04

coming in the next month ? Where

39:06

are you and what's the next step for you ?

39:09

Right . So depends on who you

39:11

are . So right now it's not ready

39:13

for everyday people who use technologies

39:16

and everyday thing . I don't

39:18

like to use the term users . You

39:20

might notice that I feel

39:22

that user is an othering and

39:25

I find that , especially in mainstream technology

39:28

, once we've othered a group , it's

39:30

a very small step from user to dumb user

39:32

, right . Once we've kind

39:35

of created that hierarchy

39:37

of where the people who know , where

39:39

the smart ones , where the designers

39:42

, where the developers and they're the idiots who

39:44

use it , then

39:46

it makes it easier to do bad things to those

39:48

idiots , right . So I don't like that . I

39:51

don't think they're idiots either . But

39:56

that whole thing about oh

40:01

, this is actually really prevalent , unfortunately

40:04

, in free and open source , where

40:06

we

40:10

have this notion that

40:12

people who use what we make have

40:14

to either really care enough

40:17

to learn what we've built , even

40:19

if it's difficult , or if they don't

40:21

, they don't deserve it . It's an arrogance that

40:24

we have and we make comparisons

40:26

like oh , you know , even your mom could

40:28

use it , or even your grandma very , very sexist

40:30

things as well . But

40:32

we have this notion that , you know , people

40:35

are stupid if they don't understand how

40:37

to use what we make and

40:39

we really need to , even especially

40:41

in the free and open source world . We need to really

40:44

move beyond this because it is arrogant

40:46

these people who use the things we make

40:48

. I'm not stupid . The reason

40:50

we have to make the things that we're making

40:53

easy to use and beautiful

40:55

and lovely experiences Is

40:57

not because the people who use them are stupid

40:59

. It's because their brain surgeons and

41:02

they have brain surgery in the morning so

41:04

they don't have time for your useless thing

41:06

that doesn't work properly that

41:08

they have to learn right . So you're

41:10

the stupid one . If it doesn't , if it isn't easy

41:13

to use , they're not , and

41:16

I'm sure I'll get some hate for

41:18

that , but it's okay you

41:20

guys should be able to take it we should be able

41:22

to take it right and

41:25

it's an arrogance that doesn't help anyone really

41:28

. So right

41:30

now the small web is

41:33

at a stage where developers

41:35

can play with what

41:37

there is , and what there is is Two

41:40

things . The main one is

41:42

kitten , like the

41:45

cat , like little baby cat , and

41:47

it's a framework and a server for building

41:50

small websites . So

41:52

developers can take this and start kind of playing

41:54

with small websites . And again , remember , a small website

41:56

is a peer to peer website . It's

41:59

very different from your regular centralized website

42:01

. It's only meant to serve one

42:04

person no users . There's

42:06

no concept of users . When you remove

42:08

the concept of users , you greatly

42:10

simplify the system In

42:13

what you have to build right . Authentication

42:15

becomes . You don't even need a user name because there's

42:18

no user right . So you have

42:20

a secret and that's secret

42:22

. And kitten is a string of emoji . So

42:25

you just put that into your password manager

42:27

. It's a string of emoji

42:29

, not just because it's cute , because it is cute

42:31

, but so that you can't write

42:33

it down on sticky and posted onto your monitor

42:36

and defeat the whole purpose of security

42:38

in the whole system . So

42:41

, but there's no username right

42:44

. It means that

42:46

we can cut out a huge amount of complexity

42:48

. We're designing just for one person

42:50

on one node . So imagine a tiny

42:52

VPS and the app that's

42:54

running on it is just for one

42:56

person and it connects to other VPS

42:59

nodes that are just for one person

43:01

. It means we can have an

43:03

in process database , for example , etc

43:05

. Etc . Etc . So that that

43:07

in turn , makes it much less

43:10

complicated to deploy these things , which

43:12

means that we can start building deployment

43:15

aspects that are very simple to use

43:17

, that don't require technical knowledge to either

43:19

deploy or to maintain . So

43:22

if you've ever installed and run your

43:24

own mastodon instance , you know how complicated

43:26

that is , because mastodon is built

43:28

on a big tech stack , right

43:30

, and so every

43:33

mastodon instance could serve one

43:35

person , like mine is just for

43:37

me but it can also

43:39

serve a hundred thousand , maybe five hundred thousand

43:41

depending on how beefy your server is , and

43:44

those are completely different worlds . It's

43:46

a world of complexity apart

43:48

to serve one person versus five hundred thousand . That's

43:52

why it's built with the technologies that it's built with .

43:55

You don't need communities to have one user on it , exactly

43:57

.

43:58

And that's why I had to build kitten . That's

44:00

why I had to build my own server and my own framework . It's

44:03

also a really good framework for learning web development

44:05

in general , because it is built on HTML , css

44:08

, javascript and then progressively enhanced

44:10

with HTML and HTML

44:12

on the wire , basically , and Alpine JS if

44:14

you want it or whatever else

44:17

you want to use . But it has built in support for these things . It

44:19

makes the basics very simple . It

44:23

has built in support for public key

44:25

encryption so you can send

44:27

and send encrypted messages between

44:30

these nodes , for example , without as

44:32

a developer , without knowing how to build that

44:35

yourself , because that's also not the simplest

44:37

thing to build and very easy to get wrong . But

44:41

also the way that

44:43

it translates to people who are using it is they don't

44:45

need to know about keys or a secret keys or whatever . They just have

44:47

their little emoji Secret that they put into their

44:49

one password or

44:51

their password manager or whatever it is . Everything

44:54

else gets generated from that . That's actually an add two

44:57

, five , five , one , nine secret key . Do they need to know that ? No , it's

45:02

a string of emoji . It's cute . Way better , way better

45:04

. To be honest , it's a little bit more complicated

45:06

.

45:08

To be straight , I could spin up

45:11

in an instance how do you call that A node ? I could spin

45:13

up a node on my machine and have

45:15

that done on a different machine beside me

45:17

and just connect the two ends and messages , right and left .

45:20

Yeah , yeah . In fact , if you go to the kitten website

45:22

, the website is right now on my

45:24

source code repository . It doesn't even have

45:26

its own site yet , but it's on code Byrk

45:29

, codeorg , forward slash , kitten

45:32

forward slash app . If

45:37

you go there , you can actually . There are lots of examples and one of

45:39

them is an end to end encrypted kitten chat

45:41

and

45:44

you can just run that locally because it's got

45:46

things like you can actually . It's got aliases for place one

45:49

to place fivelocalhost , so

45:56

you can actually run nodes locally and test between it . It's a pure web

45:58

I you've probably

46:00

never worked with this before or played with

46:02

it , so it's probably a good time

46:04

for developers to kind of just at least have a

46:06

look and go okay

46:08

, this is an interesting concept , maybe . What

46:11

does it feel like ? How is it different ? And

46:14

also it's kind of cool to you

46:16

know , play with a system that has no bullshit

46:18

baked in . Part of it is . When I

46:20

first started again , I was always I'm

46:22

always trying to see where in the stack . Like you said

46:24

earlier , we can't rebuild the

46:27

whole thing Right . There are people trying

46:29

to build a completely different internet and

46:31

this and that and sure , but you need to

46:33

build a bridge between where we are and

46:35

where we want to be , Right , especially

46:38

if you want other people to be able to come over with

46:41

us to that place . We want to be , because

46:43

all of these issues that I mentioned surveillance , this

46:45

and that whatever they're all solved if

46:47

you have technical knowledge . Right For

46:49

us . Actually , these are solved problems

46:51

. We can delve into

46:53

the you know the guts of the Linux

46:55

kernel if we need to , depending on how much we want

46:57

to harden something . These

47:00

are not issues for us , it's an issue for everyone

47:02

else . So I think it's very

47:05

important if you're trying to build an alternative

47:07

, it's not just saying oh here , we're on this island

47:09

and this island is terrible , we need to get off this island

47:11

. We're going to go to this other island and

47:14

all the other master swimmers follow

47:17

me . That's great . So the three of

47:19

you are on the other island , everyone else is drowned . You

47:21

need to build a bridge , and that's

47:23

how I see the small web as a bridge between

47:25

you know , the centralized web that we live

47:27

in and kind of the decentralized world we want

47:29

to get to , and

47:33

so yeah , yeah .

47:35

That's a hell of a swim , a hell

47:37

of a journey .

47:38

Well , hopefully it's not going to be a swim . That's the thing

47:41

. That's okay . Let's hope we get the bridge , Like

47:43

we might have to swim over there to build

47:45

the other leg of the bridge . But you

47:47

know , we're really stretching

47:50

the analogy .

47:52

I'll trust you with that , but wait for a couple

47:54

weeks until your cast is off .

47:58

Yes , definitely .

47:59

That's usually the place where I as an advice , but I'd

48:02

like to wrap up about the elements

48:05

that you brought . So where

48:08

should we send people after listening

48:10

to this , to read again about

48:12

your concept , to read about Kitten , to read

48:14

about the small web star ? What are the different

48:17

places you would advertise

48:19

or push for people to

48:21

go to ?

48:22

Sure , just two really . The

48:24

Small Technology Foundation website is

48:26

at small-techorg

48:29

and my own

48:31

website is even shorter it's A-R-dot-A-L

48:35

, so it's just my first name with a dot

48:37

in the middle . I'm so jealous . And

48:41

, yes , it was expensive . No

48:43

, I wanted that domain

48:45

for so long Because , again , part of it is

48:47

your domain on the small web and your domain

48:50

on the web is part of your identity

48:52

in a sense or identities

48:54

. That's the cool thing about the small web

48:56

have 10 different places , explore different

48:58

aspects of your identity . It's

49:01

very dangerous if people say we control

49:03

your identity , this is your identity . No , we're

49:05

much more complex creatures than that . But

49:08

so I've always wanted that sort

49:10

of it's a vanity domain , of course Albanian

49:12

. So I did actually . I went to them

49:14

and I was like can I have A-R-dot-A-L

49:17

? And they were like we don't do two-letter domains . And

49:19

I was like no sad face . And then

49:21

a while

49:23

later somebody said would you like A-R-dot-A-L

49:25

? I'm like I thought they didn't do it and then they apparently started

49:28

doing it . Somebody else got it . We

49:30

were so lucky , they knew about what we were

49:32

doing and they were sympathetic

49:34

. So I did pay . I

49:36

did pay more money than I've ever

49:38

paid for a domain , but I didn't pay

49:40

as much as I could have , especially considering

49:42

that A-R-L is the name of a German petroleum

49:45

company , so they could have actually gone to them .

49:48

So I'm very lucky to have it .

49:50

But yes , that's where people can go , okay

49:52

. And there are videos there

49:54

, et cetera . There are lots

49:56

of examples in kitten for developers to play

49:58

with and , as always , I'm very easy

50:01

to reach , so you'll find a link

50:03

to my mastodon . If you're

50:05

on mastodon , feel free to just ping

50:07

me there If you have any questions

50:09

, and really just it's at the point where

50:12

. Just play with it . Hopefully , within a couple of

50:14

months , you'll be able to deploy your own websites

50:17

with it as well small websites , and then the

50:19

fun will really begin , because then we can evolve a

50:21

protocol together . It's not going to

50:23

be a top down sort of thing and

50:25

, and you know , other developers will be able to build

50:27

other things , because the thing I build may not be

50:29

the thing that you know people end up using . I don't

50:31

know . I hope it is , but I'm trying to

50:33

build it in such a way that you know we're sharing

50:35

every brick , so that you can build your

50:38

own little Lego creations as well .

50:40

Then I'm

50:43

pressing my thumbs in German is wishing you

50:48

luck .

50:48

Okay , yeah , I'm pressing my thumbs right now

50:51

. I'm pressing that one thumb .

50:56

Aril , it's been a fantastic discussion

50:59

, thank you so much .

51:00

Thank you for having me .

51:04

My pleasure . People go to the links I will add to the show notes . Have

51:07

a read on the small tech

51:10

website . It brushes

51:12

over everything we talked about . It just goes

51:14

in depth and in way

51:16

more detail . So take the time . If

51:19

anything wasn't clear right now , it

51:21

will be after the read . So please do that , aril

51:23

. Thank you so much . Thank you , tim , and

51:26

that's been another episode of DevPost Journey with

51:28

each other next week Bye , bye

51:30

. Thanks a lot

51:32

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51:34

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