0:00

All right, well let's talk about that

0:02

little voice in your head. You know

0:04

the one I'm talking about. The one

0:06

that tells you that you're not good

0:08

enough, that you should have done everything

0:10

better, or that everyone else has it

0:12

all figured out, except for you. Yeah.

0:14

You know the one. Well, today we're

0:16

going to put that voice under the

0:18

microscope with someone who has spent her

0:20

entire career helping people manage it. Dr.

0:22

Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist and

0:24

best-selling author. Her knack for explaining complex

0:26

mental health issues with short, super engaging

0:28

videos has gained her millions of followers

0:30

and made her one of the most

0:32

popular mental health educators in the world.

0:34

In this episode, we are going to

0:36

talk about how to reframe negative thoughts

0:38

and beliefs. Why self-crit criticism is such

0:40

a trap and how you can get

0:43

out of it. what she has personally

0:45

struggled with since becoming internet famous, what

0:47

it means to build actual resilience and

0:49

not just fake resilience, why emotions are

0:51

not facts, and much much more. So

0:53

if you've ever felt stuck in your

0:55

own head, struggled with motivation or just

0:58

wanted a better way to handle the

1:00

inevitable shitstorms of life, this one

1:02

is for you my friends. This

1:04

is Dr. Julie, let's get right

1:06

into it. It's the subtle art

1:08

of not giving a fuck podcast

1:11

with your host Mark Manson Dr.

1:13

Julie Smith Welcome to the show.

1:15

Thanks for having me all the

1:17

way from Britain having you here I

1:19

have a I was okay I have

1:21

a selfish question for you to

1:23

start out so you are

1:26

a clinical psychologist. Yeah, you

1:28

rose the prominence through social

1:30

media Social media at this

1:33

point is well known for being

1:35

terrible for mental health.

1:37

Yeah. It's not my fault, by

1:39

the way. I don't do that.

1:42

We're not going to hold you

1:44

accountable. But I'm wondering, do you

1:46

feel any cognitive dissonance around that?

1:48

How do you square that? Like I

1:51

said, some of this is a selfish

1:53

question because I think about this sometimes.

1:55

Yeah. Being so active on social platforms.

1:57

really trying to play the game with

2:00

the algorithm and everything. Like how do

2:02

you square that in your head? Yeah,

2:04

did it was a it was a

2:06

big deal when we first started kind

2:08

of sharing videos and stuff and I

2:11

was absolutely kind of swimming against the

2:13

tide professionally. Most therapists I knew and

2:15

psychologists didn't even really use social media

2:17

let alone, you know, to share information.

2:20

And so it was a big kind

2:22

of part of my thought process about

2:24

whether we do this or not. And

2:26

then I thought, well, actually, you know,

2:28

I can sit in my therapy room

2:31

and complain about all the terrible advice

2:33

there is out there from people who

2:35

don't necessarily have that evidence based behind

2:37

them and have zero control over it.

2:40

Or I can get onto the internet

2:42

and make my tiny little corner of

2:44

it really helpful and positive. So that

2:46

anyone who is out there scrolling. has

2:49

slightly more chance of coming across something

2:51

that was decent information for them. And

2:53

so it was the only way that

2:55

I could really have a positive impact,

2:57

because I can't change the fact that

3:00

everybody is on social or how it's

3:02

run. So yeah, it just became a

3:04

kind of, the way that I could

3:06

have positive influence was, I guess, doing

3:09

that. But I did not expect it

3:11

to have any really. We made a

3:13

couple of really terrible YouTube videos, just

3:15

because I felt like it was... It

3:18

seemed like a good thing to do

3:20

to share the educational side of therapy.

3:22

So a lot of people think you

3:24

go to therapy and you just talk,

3:26

but you do learn a lot about

3:29

how your mind works and relationships and

3:31

stuff. And that was where the title

3:33

of my first book came from was

3:35

all these young people that were coming

3:38

through to therapy. And why has nobody

3:40

told me this before? This is not

3:42

rocket science, but when I take it

3:44

seriously and I put it into my

3:46

life, it's having a really positive impact.

3:49

So I used to kind of go

3:51

home and say, you know, there should

3:53

be more available. People shouldn't have to

3:55

pay to come and see someone like

3:58

me to find out basics about how

4:00

their own brain works. And so... So

4:02

poor old Matt said, well, go on

4:04

then. You make it available. And so

4:07

that was when we started with a

4:09

bit of YouTube. And then Matt discovered

4:11

TikTok at the time. And so why

4:13

do you make some bite-sized videos? No

4:15

way. No way. It was like dancing

4:18

and comedy and stuff. And then a

4:20

bunch of people who were expressing their

4:22

distress, but there wasn't anything sort of

4:24

constructive or positive in response to that.

4:27

So I honestly thought we were going

4:29

to be, I've trolled out of there,

4:31

or just ignored. So I said, well,

4:33

if that happens, then we'll just, you

4:35

know, delete the account and move on

4:38

with our lives. And so we were

4:40

kind of expecting that to happen at

4:42

some point. I thought we'd be one

4:44

of those projects you do for a

4:47

while, because it feels like a nice

4:49

thing to do. And then it would

4:51

fizzle out. For better or worse. You're

4:53

now best-selling author. you're touring the US

4:56

doing a press tour, I'm curious how

4:58

has that affected your mental health? You

5:00

know, it's really, I'm, I never had

5:02

any ambition to be a public person

5:04

whatsoever. I was so happy doing one-to-one

5:07

therapy in the room with people, I

5:09

felt like I was really good at

5:11

that, and I had, so I was

5:13

in the NHS about 10 years, and

5:16

then I left to do the private

5:18

work so that I could manage around

5:20

my children, and had this really balanced

5:22

life, and it balanced life, and it

5:25

was all good. and then I had

5:27

this great idea of sharing it all

5:29

alive and all of that stuff went

5:31

out the window and I was then

5:33

pushed into doing all this kind of

5:36

stuff that was way out my comfort

5:38

zone like you know live TV and

5:40

radio and speaking events and stuff and

5:42

but I felt like I had to

5:45

do it because I needed to practice

5:47

what I was preaching. You know I'm

5:49

telling people you know face your fears,

5:51

step out your comfort zone, do what

5:53

matters. Do what matters and... The reason

5:56

we kept going when it was really

5:58

tough... was that people just would email

6:00

and contact us all the time saying

6:02

that was really helpful. What's the next

6:05

step to this? Or can you do

6:07

a video on this? And here's how

6:09

the book really really helped me and

6:11

my family and thank you very much.

6:14

And when you realize you're having a

6:16

positive impact on real lives, that gives

6:18

you that kind of, I guess, set

6:20

of values around. Okay, this is why

6:22

I'm doing it even when it's not

6:25

easy or comfortable for me. You know,

6:27

I'm definitely a huge introvert. And so

6:29

when I do stuff like this, while

6:31

I can really enjoy it, because I'm

6:34

talking about stuff that really interests me,

6:36

it will totally deplete me. So I

6:38

will need to, you know, I mean,

6:40

my family will be at the hotel,

6:42

like, hi mom, and I'll just go

6:45

away from it, I need to collapse

6:47

and heat for a minute. And so

6:49

I have to have that kind of

6:51

values base behind me about we're doing

6:54

it for reason and because it feels

6:56

like a positive things to do. So

6:58

yeah, which gives you that drive, I

7:00

guess. Have you found yourself needing to

7:03

take your own advice in a certain

7:05

area? All the time. Yeah. Like what

7:07

is that specific day? Yeah. What is

7:09

the piece of advice that you often

7:11

give that you struggled to take yourself?

7:14

Well, let's take the idea of the

7:16

kind of, when I've started doing live

7:18

TV, so I was doing like this

7:20

morning and stuff in the UK, which

7:23

is a sort of morning program. on

7:25

a sort of fairly regular basis. And

7:27

really the only way I was able

7:29

to do or willing to do that

7:32

was if I fully committed to having

7:34

my own back if it went wrong.

7:36

You know, when you're about to do

7:38

it and there's equipment everywhere and they're

7:40

counting, you know, three, two and like...

7:43

and you get these sort of horror

7:45

movie ideas run through your mind about,

7:47

oh my God, I'm going to fall

7:49

over on that stair, and the nation's

7:52

going to see my underwear, and all

7:54

of them, I'm going to be humiliated,

7:56

and all these kind of things running

7:58

through your mind. The only way you

8:00

can then... settle into doing the job

8:03

that you know how to do, is

8:05

to say, okay, well, if that worst

8:07

case scenario happens, I'm not going to

8:09

kick myself while I'm down. I'm going

8:12

to not be highly self-critical about it.

8:14

I'm going to look after myself and

8:16

acknowledge that this is really difficult for

8:18

me. And so I guess I had

8:21

to shift that sort of in a

8:23

dialogue from one that was probably a

8:25

lot harsher before. to one that sounded

8:27

much more, not indulgent, not kind of

8:29

lovey-dovey and all that, you know, hocus,

8:32

because it was, I had this idea

8:34

of a sort of a coach for,

8:36

you know, all elite athletes have a

8:38

coach, but that person isn't someone who

8:41

tells you what you want to hear

8:43

necessarily, is what they tell you what

8:45

you need to hear to enable you

8:47

to, I don't know, when you've had

8:49

a setback to pull you back up

8:52

and get you to try again, or

8:54

someone who believes in you believe in

8:56

you that. and is able to see

8:58

that you can reach new heights if

9:01

you, you know, get back in there

9:03

and stuff. So I have that kind

9:05

of idea in my mind that I

9:07

have to be my own coach in

9:10

my mind to be able to deal

9:12

with the kind of all these situations

9:14

that I could easily say no to.

9:16

So it's kind of visualizing worst case

9:18

scenario and then reminding yourself, I'll be

9:21

okay. I'll have compassion for myself. I'm

9:23

not going to judge myself, hold it

9:25

against myself. Yeah, and I didn't sort

9:27

of hang myself worth on all of

9:30

it going really well or any of

9:32

it. Like I was really happy that

9:34

all of this happened a little bit

9:36

later in life when I already had

9:39

a career that I loved and I

9:41

knew I was good at and I

9:43

already had three beautiful children, a good

9:45

marriage. Like I was okay. Like my

9:47

life was fine and so this was

9:50

an added extra. So I knew that

9:52

if it all ended tomorrow ended tomorrow.

9:54

it wouldn't matter too much to me

9:56

because I'm not hanging my self-esteem on

9:59

it. So I think that helped as

10:01

well. It's like there's a diversification. of

10:03

your identity across many things. And so

10:05

if one thing goes terribly. Yeah. It's

10:07

like an investment portfolio. Yeah. If the

10:10

stock crashes, I'm still okay. Yeah. And

10:12

the fact that I was doing educational

10:14

content really helped as well, because I

10:16

was making content that was just to

10:19

be helpful. And that's really how it

10:21

all started. When I started to get

10:23

myself a little bit, you know, in

10:25

the days when I was scrolling for

10:28

research. And then you get yourself in

10:30

and like, oh God, they look much

10:32

better than I do in front of

10:34

the camera or their lighting is much

10:36

better or their clothes much better, that

10:39

I was really able to just check

10:41

myself on that. And if a video

10:43

could be helpful to someone, even if

10:45

in looking back at it, I thought,

10:48

oh my God, I look terrible or

10:50

anything like that, I was able to

10:52

just let it go anyway and not

10:54

be perfectionist about the stuff that really

10:56

didn't matter so much. So that was,

10:59

yeah, that mattered hugely. I made a

11:01

big difference. My problem was always saying

11:03

no. Yeah, that's my advice. that I

11:05

give all the time. Yeah, I'm fucking

11:08

terrible at taking myself. You had a

11:10

chapter in the book about that actually

11:12

too, don't you, about saying, accepting and

11:14

saying, yeah, I said too many things.

11:17

I think I was, I found it

11:19

difficult to say no at the beginning

11:21

when we felt like it was going

11:23

to end tomorrow. You know, when we

11:25

thought, okay, this is all, it would

11:28

just make hay, just like go for

11:30

it while people are listening and then

11:32

we'll, you know, it'll stop in a

11:34

little stop in a minute and it.

11:37

And it. And it. And it. And

11:39

so now. Now that I recognize it's

11:41

not all just going to shut off

11:43

at some point, I'm able to say,

11:46

no, I'm just going to do this

11:48

in a sustainable way. Because in that

11:50

first year or two, when every video

11:52

we're putting on was getting more and

11:54

more engagement or more views, it was

11:57

just like the system loved us. And

11:59

so we were thinking, okay, we just

12:01

need to make as much content as

12:03

possible while this is happening. And so

12:06

we're making videos almost every... day and

12:08

but it was still just me and

12:10

my husband he still works full-time three

12:12

kids at home lockdown homeschooling I was

12:14

right my first book then and it

12:17

was just you know thing that got

12:19

sacrificed was sleep and and that's not

12:21

a good equation yeah at all so

12:23

yeah now I'm much more and because

12:26

I'm not driven by that sort of

12:28

like a fame or anything like that

12:30

I guess some people in the system

12:32

probably think she's mad why she's saying

12:35

no to this why she's saying no

12:37

to that But it just doesn't, because

12:39

it's not featuring on that kind of

12:41

value system, then it's become easier to

12:43

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14:01

you'll think me later. You open the

14:04

book, which is open when a companion

14:06

for life's twists and turns. You open

14:08

the book with social comparison, actually, a

14:10

chapter on social comparison. Why did you

14:13

open with that there and how can

14:15

people kind of navigate social comparison since

14:17

it's such a deep-rooted thing that we

14:19

have and experience? Yeah, I think social

14:21

comparison, well, all of the chapters. So

14:24

there all that is 26 different types

14:26

of different scenarios and they're all based

14:28

on things that we all face at

14:30

some point and you know social comparison

14:33

is one of those things that there's

14:35

nobody that's not done it you know

14:37

is something that's in us and yet

14:39

there's so much on social media that

14:42

it's probably one of the reasons I

14:44

have to stay away from social media

14:46

is that so much on out there

14:48

is just stop comparing yourself you know

14:50

because it'll make you feel bad and

14:53

it's like it's such a a fundamental

14:55

part of being human, our ability to

14:57

do that helps us to be decent

14:59

human beings too, right? So if you

15:02

live in a community of people and

15:04

you're not comparing yourself to them, then

15:06

you're quite possibly not really being a

15:08

decent member of that community because our

15:10

ability to check out the people that

15:13

we're living amongst and work out, you

15:15

know, what their moral framework is, how

15:17

they like to behave, what the rules

15:19

are, and if you're able to then

15:22

compare that to how you're doing and

15:24

how you're living in that. circle, that's

15:26

really going to fare you well and

15:28

you're going to be a hopefully a

15:31

decent part of that community. So as

15:33

far as I can see it, the

15:35

ability to compare is a strength, but

15:37

in this kind of modern world and

15:39

especially on social and things like that,

15:42

it kind of flips that strength upside

15:44

down and we end up making comparisons

15:46

that don't necessarily help us move forward

15:48

in our own lives, but can kind

15:51

of send you into turmoil. So you

15:53

know, if you're, I don't know. I

15:55

feel comparing yourself to someone that you

15:57

never ever would have even met with.

15:59

social media who is on a completely

16:02

different playing field to you and you're

16:04

comparing yourself in ways that, I don't

16:06

know, let's say like your looks or

16:08

your personality or some sporting talent or

16:11

something that's really not that changeable, then

16:13

you know that's going to result in

16:15

you kind of curled upon the sofa

16:17

feeling like you're a terrible person or

16:19

you're rubbish and you're never going to

16:22

be good enough. Whereas if you use

16:24

your ability to compare, you apply it

16:26

to the right situation. and you can

16:28

use it to your advantage right so

16:30

I don't know if you're trying to

16:33

get better at tennis and you go

16:35

to your local tennis club and there's

16:37

someone who is kind of a few

16:39

months or years ahead of you on

16:41

their kind of journey and you notice

16:44

that the thing you want to improve

16:46

I don't know your backhand or something

16:48

they do it really well and you

16:50

can kind of zone right in on

16:52

that and what is it that they

16:55

do and how do they do it

16:57

and what can I learn from that?

16:59

that actually helps you in your life

17:01

to improve the thing that is important

17:03

to you. Whereas, you know, if you

17:06

just go on, I don't know, social

17:08

media and can pay yourself to better

17:10

or someone, then it's not going to

17:12

be as constructive for you because it's

17:14

not going to lead to a clear

17:17

set of actions that's going to help

17:19

you. I think another probably negative one

17:21

is when you can pay yourself to

17:23

people that you're supposed to be in

17:25

a relationship with. So whether that be

17:28

friends or family even. especially with these

17:30

kind of outside success metrics and stuff

17:32

like that. All of that stuff just

17:34

destroys relationships because you're instantly, you know,

17:36

someone that you're supposed to be on

17:39

a team with, you're suddenly putting a

17:41

scoreboard between you. And so their success

17:43

feels like a threat and your success

17:45

will feel like a threat to them

17:47

and that just kind of thoughts your

17:50

connection completely. Yeah. Yeah, in the book,

17:52

you talk about, we can, we compare

17:54

ourselves to people. and then the reaction

17:56

we have to that. And it can

17:58

either be aspirational or you can kind

18:01

of turn it in word and say,

18:03

well I'm just garbage, you kind of

18:05

already mentioned that. How do you take

18:07

someone, like in your practice, how do

18:09

you take someone from kind of reframing

18:12

that to seeing all these people doing

18:14

amazing things around me and oh I'm

18:16

such a piece of garbage to you

18:18

know, oh these people should be an

18:20

aspiration to me instead? You have to

18:23

be clear that you're in the right

18:25

situation, or your value system. and then

18:27

instantly start, you know, because I remember

18:29

feeling that actually when I first started

18:31

doing like some TV bits, so you

18:34

go into that scenario, everyone's just beautiful

18:36

and like, you know, there's this kind

18:38

of whole new world of stuff, and

18:40

then you go home, you feel like

18:42

garbage, so you can be comparing yourself

18:45

negatively in a situation that is never

18:47

going to turn into something constructive because

18:49

that's not what you're aiming for anyway.

18:51

And in that situation... I think you

18:53

have to come back to your own

18:56

life and remember what matters to you.

18:58

I mean, one of the exercises in

19:00

the book, I think I've put in

19:02

both books actually because it's something that

19:04

I, it applies to so many situations

19:07

and it's one of the tools that

19:09

I personally use fairly often actually, is

19:11

the values exercise stuff. So there's loads

19:13

of different ways you can do it,

19:15

but it's really simple. It's get pen

19:18

and paper and you look at, okay,

19:20

split it into different boxes. list each

19:22

area of your life. So that might

19:24

be marriage, parenting, friendship, health, lifelong learning,

19:26

whatever. And in each box you put

19:29

a few sentences or thoughts about what

19:31

matters most to you in that area

19:33

of your life. They're not what you

19:35

want to get, not what you want

19:37

to happen to you, but how you

19:40

want to show up there and the

19:42

kind of thing you want to represent

19:44

there in good times and bad. And

19:46

so you get a few words there

19:48

sentences, and then you rate... each box.

19:51

It was just a crude kind of

19:53

zero to ten. How important are those

19:55

values to you in your life? Zero

19:57

or not all. 10 max. So then

19:59

you rate it again, still out of

20:02

10, but this time, how much you

20:04

feel you're living in line with that

20:06

value this week or this month. And

20:08

then what you get is this indication

20:10

of where you need to focus your

20:13

attention in your life. So if you

20:15

have rated something as 10 out of

20:17

10, and how much you feel you're

20:19

living in line with it right now,

20:21

then that needs your attention, right? Whereas

20:24

there might be other areas that you're

20:26

really living in line with it. But

20:28

it's not a tool for self-criticism. It's

20:30

a tool to show you where to

20:32

place your attention next. Because you can't

20:35

be 10 out of 10 on all

20:37

of it all of the time. It's

20:39

just impossible. Because life pulls you in

20:41

different directions, right? So while I'm bringing

20:43

a book out into the world, I'm

20:46

not doing every single school run like

20:48

I want to, or whatever those things

20:50

are. But swings around about it. I

20:52

then know that if I'm not spending

20:54

as much time with them as I

20:57

want to be. I know that I'm

20:59

going to make a plan to move

21:01

back in that direction and just even

21:03

things out a bit. And so you're

21:05

constantly, you know, it's like if you're

21:08

on a balancing beam, you never find

21:10

that sweet spot where you just stay

21:12

there and you're balanced forever, you're constantly

21:14

shifting a bit and you just notice

21:16

when you're going too far one way

21:19

and you put yourself back the other

21:21

way. So I think, digressing from your

21:23

question a bit, but when you, you

21:25

know, if you're comparing yourself in a

21:27

situation, recalibrate almost and come back to

21:30

actually what matters to me because there's

21:32

so many things you can you know

21:34

you can go out and can pay

21:36

yourself to anyone and anything you have

21:38

completely different lives and completely different values

21:41

to you so you can come back

21:43

to is that something I should be

21:45

comparing myself to or not and and

21:47

I think that's a really helpful exercise

21:49

because then if you're also basing your

21:52

goals on your values it becomes really

21:54

easy to look at who I should

21:56

be comparing myself to and Why and

21:58

how? Yeah, and Mark, you talk about

22:00

that a lot about choosing the metrics.

22:03

Yeah, similar to why. you're saying too,

22:05

yeah, choosing the metrics you're gonna measure

22:07

yourself by. One of the things that

22:09

I always think about is like if

22:11

you're gonna compare yourself to a good

22:14

aspect of somebody, you also need to

22:16

compare yourself to the bad aspect of

22:18

that person, right? So it's like easy

22:20

for me to look at somebody who,

22:22

you know, I don't know, has accomplished

22:25

like some incredible thing. I can envy

22:27

that, but I also need to envy

22:29

all of the sacrifices, struggles, pitfalls, problems

22:31

that they've gone through to get that

22:33

positive thing. kind of a mental fallacy

22:36

that we all fall into is that

22:38

we we only envy the positive thing

22:40

we don't see all of the negative

22:42

struggle and sacrifice that came that went

22:44

into that positive thing and if and

22:47

I think a lot of times if

22:49

we were aware of that we'd be

22:51

like oh no no I would not

22:53

trade places with that person yeah yeah

22:55

I think that's a big thing that

22:58

I certainly became aware of doing therapy

23:00

particularly once I left the NHS and

23:02

I was doing private therapy I worked

23:04

with People that you would imagine must

23:06

have the best lives, you know, that

23:09

whether it be professional athletes or people

23:11

who are really high up in that,

23:13

you know, industry leaders and think, well,

23:15

you would just imagine how could they

23:17

be worried about anything? And some of

23:20

them were amongst the most unhappy people

23:22

I've ever worked with. And so that

23:24

as a sort of. personal life experience

23:26

for me was really helpful for there's

23:28

a lot of this stuff is about

23:31

perspective shifting isn't it and sometimes we

23:33

get so into the detail of one

23:35

tiny area of life and we start

23:37

to then over inflate it or magnify

23:39

things and just having that shift of

23:42

being able to put something at arm's

23:44

length and go oh okay that's not

23:46

what I thought it was it's just

23:48

so helpful and that's really what the

23:50

book is about to be fair I

23:53

think a lot of people When you're

23:55

in the eye of the storm, whatever

23:57

that storm is, what you don't need

23:59

is for someone to say, you probably

24:01

should have learned mine from six months

24:04

ago, then you'll be right now. You

24:06

don't need that. You need something. someone

24:08

that just goes, you know, just helps

24:10

you to just shift the trajectory of

24:13

your attention and say, if you focus

24:15

on this, you start moving forward, you're

24:17

going to move through it and out

24:19

the other side. But that's really hard

24:21

to do for yourself because you've got

24:24

emotion and confusion and no one's telling

24:26

you how, you know, which ways up.

24:28

So it just, you know, helps you

24:30

through that kind of either storm almost.

24:32

What else have you found surprising through

24:35

your practice? I don't know, I don't

24:37

want to get too dark about it,

24:39

but I, so I used to, my

24:41

sort of specialist area when I was

24:43

training was with the Ministry of Defense,

24:46

so we had a small unit that

24:48

was by the NHS, but it was

24:50

just for MOD, and at the time

24:52

we were in Afghanistan, lots of people

24:54

coming back, so my sort of professionalism

24:57

was military trauma really, and so I

24:59

guess I, that probably influenced what I

25:01

do now even more than... I might

25:03

have previously thought because there's a certain

25:05

approach to that sort of people that

25:08

you might not have other ways of

25:10

taking, you know, they're only going to

25:12

listen to if you're, you know, dressing

25:14

something in a certain way and so

25:16

that, but also listening to stories like

25:19

that I think fundamentally changes you. and

25:22

your views on what humans are capable

25:24

of for good or bad and what

25:27

people can be led into and so

25:29

I think and that happened I was

25:31

doing that so that was my kind

25:34

of specialist year so my final year

25:36

of training I was doing that and

25:38

then as I graduated my supervisor left

25:41

his role and so I went into

25:43

his job and so I was then

25:45

running this unit as a newly qualified.

25:47

person and that was just massively game

25:50

changing for me I think a massive

25:52

sort of massive learning curve around the

25:54

sorts of things. that people have to

25:57

face and they're like, things that if

25:59

it was a movie, you wouldn't imagine

26:01

it could be true. And that people

26:04

out there have such tough lives. There

26:06

are so many people dealing with stuff

26:08

that we can't begin to imagine. Yeah.

26:10

Yeah, you had this great quote in

26:13

the book though. You said some of

26:15

the most profound changes I've witnessed and

26:17

people over the years have not been

26:20

when their life suddenly got easier. It

26:22

was when people started to discover that

26:24

they had more capacity to cope than

26:27

they had ever imagined. which I think

26:29

speaks to what you were just saying.

26:31

How do you guide someone through, if

26:33

they're in this kind of emotional morass

26:36

basically, and maybe it isn't as extreme

26:38

as combat veterans or anything like that,

26:40

but how do you guide someone? from

26:43

this place of I'm so overwhelmed with

26:45

just emotion and so things are going

26:47

so bad in my life how do

26:50

you get them to the place where

26:52

look you can't handle this you can't

26:54

cope with this well that I think

26:56

that's the kind of stuff that led

26:59

to me doing all of this and

27:01

sharing the videos because in the private

27:03

practice I was getting lots of people

27:06

come through that once they had the

27:08

educational stuff they were raring to go

27:10

but the reason for that was because

27:13

when they came into the room they

27:15

thought they were at the mercy of

27:17

emotional experience and mood and that when

27:20

they had emotion that meant something was

27:22

wrong with them. And so part of

27:24

that education was learning that, okay, emotions

27:26

aren't who you are, they're an experience

27:29

you're going to go through, and it's

27:31

all this stuff you can do that

27:33

influences that experience. So that means A,

27:36

you don't have to fully believe in

27:38

it every time it happens because it's

27:40

influenced by all these other things that

27:43

change. And there's this stuff you can

27:45

do to either prevent it from happening

27:47

in such an extreme way, but also

27:49

help you kind of bring yourself back

27:52

to baseline when you feel it. And

27:54

you still remember the people now where

27:56

they would get to a point where...

28:00

they felt able to, you know, they

28:02

weren't, they weren't constantly thinking, what would

28:04

Julie say right now? What would she

28:06

say I should do? To, do you

28:08

know, whatever happens, I think, I think

28:11

I can cope with it. And it's

28:13

this shift into the sense of agency

28:15

that I have the capacity to manage

28:17

whatever comes up for me, because I

28:20

know I'll have my own back and

28:22

I've got a few tools to kind

28:24

of deal with that. That's just a

28:26

huge shift for someone. I think if

28:28

you believe in your ability to deal

28:31

with hard times, it feels fundamentally different.

28:33

You know, you go from being the

28:35

rabbit in headlights when something happens to

28:37

the prey, the person that's striding forward

28:40

through it, knowing there's a way through

28:42

to the other side. And certainly I

28:44

used that kind of thing when, yeah,

28:46

so last summer I was diagnosed with

28:49

an early stage breast cancer and... When

28:51

you find out something like that, you

28:53

never find out everything all at once.

28:55

You don't say, okay, you've got this

28:57

thing and here's how far along it

29:00

is and here's your treatment plan and

29:02

here's your prospect. You find out in

29:04

stages. So there's this horrible period of

29:06

time where you do feel like the

29:09

rabbit and had lights and you're just

29:11

like, oh my God, what does my

29:13

future hold? I don't know. I hated

29:15

that feeling of being the prey, like,

29:18

you know, and I had this thing

29:20

in my mind that if you feel

29:22

like, if you feel like, the prey,

29:24

then you behave like one and you

29:26

then every movement you make is a

29:29

sort of darting from shadow to shadow

29:31

avoiding threats and that that's so different

29:33

to a stride forward which is that

29:35

kind of predator movement of and I've

29:38

got something in my sights and I'm

29:40

using all this energy to go for

29:42

it and I might you know and

29:44

so I wanted to kind of feel

29:47

that way as I was dealing with

29:49

it and when I when I got

29:51

diagnosed I I was about a week

29:53

away, a week or two away from

29:55

handing in the manuscript for OpenWen and

29:58

I just thought I need to finish.

30:00

like editing polishing up and I thought I

30:02

just need to get this off my desk

30:04

get it gone so that I can focus

30:06

on all the desk and I just happened

30:08

to be reading through the chapter on

30:10

when fear shows up what do you know I

30:13

was like reading it and I was like this

30:15

is not what I want to hear a

30:17

tool actually this is not it was

30:19

very gentle and therapy-ish and

30:21

so I hit the lead and rewrote the

30:23

whole thing there and then just for me

30:25

in this kind of selfish way that's

30:27

great but this one's for me And

30:30

I did then did keep coming

30:32

back to it, and every time

30:34

I came back to it, and

30:36

he used all that language around

30:38

predator and prey, and using fear

30:40

to drive you forward through it,

30:43

and having a step forward, not

30:45

a step back, all that kind

30:47

of stuff, like very kind of

30:49

focus and strong. And oh my

30:52

goodness, every time I read it, I

30:54

then got into action in sort

30:56

of... in my own survival, like in my

30:58

own rescue, you know, I would

31:00

then make calls to get second

31:02

opinions or I got in contact

31:04

with someone who recommended a surgeon

31:06

and I made stuff happen. And

31:08

so even though it didn't change

31:10

the problem and it didn't really

31:12

change how scary it was, it changed how

31:14

I moved through that and it enabled me

31:17

to behave in a way that made me

31:19

so proud of how I dealt with it.

31:21

And then from having that experience and

31:23

and... using those words to deal

31:25

with it in that way, I now

31:28

have that template in my mind that

31:30

when it hits the fan, I know I

31:32

can do stuff, I know I can do

31:34

hard things, because I did it, and it

31:36

doesn't make them any easier to deal with,

31:38

but it feels fundamentally

31:40

different, for sure. Can I just

31:43

say? You already know where I'm going

31:45

with this. I'm sorry to just make

31:47

it fit. No, no, no. No, we

31:49

like the darkness, yes. We like the

31:51

darkness, very much so. We're going to

31:53

come back to the darkness, but first

31:56

I need to like score my points

31:58

here. Before we went live. Drew

32:00

and I were having a good natured

32:02

argument over people who quote unquote thrive

32:04

under pressure actually thrive or not and

32:07

what you just described. Okay that's what

32:09

you're talking about. It's like taking the

32:11

initiative not feeling like prey but being

32:14

the predator that's thriving right pressure. Well

32:16

I like I like how you framed

32:18

it was that didn't affect how scary

32:21

it was you said it didn't affect

32:23

the fear. It affected where you put

32:25

that fear and how you use that

32:28

fear rather than freezing. Yeah. You wrap

32:30

it in the headlights. Yeah. You took

32:32

it to action. I get that. The

32:35

point is I was right. Let's get

32:37

what's most important. Let's get what's really

32:39

get to the crux of the matter.

32:42

I was right. Thank you for showing

32:44

that. Sure. That's also a chapter and

32:46

I for one about how to argue

32:49

with someone. Yeah. Let me let me

32:51

let me review this really quick. dealing

32:53

with relationships basically. I think there are,

32:56

you know, there's a lot of people

32:58

now, you have these three chapters, where

33:00

they're there, you know, when your friends

33:03

are not your friends, when you want

33:05

to be less awkward around people, when

33:07

you feel unwelcome and want to fit

33:09

in. These are kind of getting out

33:12

the nuts and bolts of loneliness, I

33:14

think, actually, of what's going on. The

33:16

larger picture right now, you know, in

33:19

recent years, loneliness has become kind of

33:21

a worrying trend. People are more and

33:23

more lonely. What kind of things do

33:26

you recommend to people? Somebody comes to

33:28

your practice. And it's obvious that they're

33:30

just suffering from a lot of loneliness.

33:33

Are there like specific things that they

33:35

can do to, like in the short

33:37

run, especially, what can they do to

33:40

feel less lonely and start to engage

33:42

with people in a better, healthier way?

33:44

Yeah, it's interesting actually, because in there

33:47

I talk about how, I guess people

33:49

would assume that. as a psychologist I'm

33:51

all into the kind of inner world

33:54

and you know being self-reflectable all the

33:56

time and that kind of thing. But

33:58

in there I... about, you know, when

34:01

you're dealing with stuff, the inner world

34:03

is a bit like a sauna. Like,

34:05

there are benefits to being there, but

34:08

only if you don't say too long.

34:10

So, you know, anyone that I was

34:12

dealing with in a therapeutic situation who

34:14

was lonely, my job is really to

34:17

put myself out of a job, right?

34:19

So, is to focus on enabling that

34:21

person to reach out to or create

34:24

scenarios where they can have human connection

34:26

and good quality human connection. and sometimes

34:28

that's a function of circumstance or putting

34:31

yourself in those kind of opportunities and

34:33

scenarios and sometimes it's about skill set

34:35

and being able to reach out to

34:38

someone and you know speak to them

34:40

and be assertive and advocate for yourself

34:42

or those kind of situations or deal

34:45

with social anxiety and so there can

34:47

be lots of different barriers to connecting

34:49

with people but sometimes for a lot

34:52

of people I think the barriers are

34:54

just modern life, right? You know, we

34:56

were saying at home, you know, I

34:59

mean, obviously I went from England, the

35:01

pub is a, the community pub is

35:03

like a traditional, an ancient tradition in

35:06

England, and really it was somewhere people

35:08

came together and had a conversation at

35:10

the end of the day, and those

35:13

things are kind of dying out now,

35:15

and even for kids, I remember as

35:17

a kid, I sort of lived in

35:20

this, like, kind of little, sort of

35:22

area with all the houses and there

35:24

was a big green in the middle

35:26

and all the kids would run home

35:29

and get changed and then all knock

35:31

on each other's doors and we'd all

35:33

spend the rest of the evening outside

35:36

just doing nothing and talking and learning

35:38

how to treat each other and that

35:40

stuff just is so few and far

35:43

between now. They're, you know, getting on

35:45

fortnight and talking over a mic occasionally.

35:47

And it's just, yeah, it's completely. So

35:50

sometimes the various are just modern life.

35:52

And then, but I think that's up

35:54

to us then, to swim against the

35:57

tide on that front. Yeah, it takes

35:59

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37:11

You just mentioned in passing that your

37:13

job is a therapist to put yourself

37:16

out of a job. I'm curious. For

37:18

people who are in therapy or going

37:20

to therapy, like A, how do they

37:23

know it's working versus just kind of

37:25

treading water? And then B, how do

37:27

they know when it's time to go?

37:30

Yeah, but I guess a lot of

37:32

therapy is goal-oriented. So if they're moving

37:34

towards that goal, whatever that might be,

37:37

then that's a kind of clear sign,

37:39

isn't it? And for some people, it's

37:41

more about clarity. a big part of

37:43

what you do in therapy is you

37:46

formulate so you know literally on paper

37:48

will map out because some people if

37:50

it's like about relationships and stuff a

37:53

lot of people will say I don't

37:55

know what the problem is but I'm

37:57

just I'm I always do the same

38:00

thing and I know it's not the

38:02

right thing but I don't know why

38:04

I do it and then we're going

38:07

to run in circles and so in

38:09

those kind of scenarios where there isn't

38:11

a clear end point where it's all

38:14

okay, really what you're doing is formulating,

38:16

so you're looking at, okay, these these

38:18

cycles that you feel stuck in, the

38:21

details change each time, but roughly the

38:23

kind of cycles the same, and you

38:25

might create an understanding about where that

38:28

came from, so it usually reflects those

38:30

early relationships you had in life, but

38:32

there's this kind of update that's needed

38:35

because that template for relationships worked as

38:37

a child, you know, had a function

38:39

as a child, but now as an

38:42

adult, it messes things things things up.

38:44

and so you kind of explore ways

38:46

to exit that and sometimes you'll go

38:48

around the old cycle again and that's

38:51

fine and sometimes you'll be able to

38:53

exit and do something different and then

38:55

after a while of doing something different

38:58

you start to see that it's possible

39:00

and I think once people start to

39:02

see that it's possible they then feel

39:05

less dependent on those sessions and they

39:07

can see that okay I know I

39:09

need to do and then someone say

39:12

well I'll just come back once a

39:14

month for a month for a bit.

39:16

And there's a bit of a holding

39:19

on and then they're kind of like,

39:21

yeah, I'm good. And so it's a

39:23

gradual process, but yeah, usually depends on

39:26

the person's goal, I'd say. What's the

39:28

difference between a good therapist and a

39:30

bad therapist? There's probably loads on that

39:33

in terms of what bad therapy is.

39:35

The way, what I would look for

39:37

in someone is is that personal connection,

39:40

that ability to feel safe in the

39:42

room to talk, because that's what you've

39:44

got to be able to do, right?

39:47

You've got to be able to say

39:49

things that you would never tell another

39:51

soul, and so you have to be

39:54

able to connect with a person. I

39:56

mean, when I was running my practice,

39:58

I would always have like a free

40:00

sort of telephone conversation with someone beforehand

40:03

where you kind of feeling things out,

40:05

being if that's something they want to

40:07

do, and that first kind of assessment

40:10

session is always about. Does it feel

40:12

right for both people? You're kind of

40:14

almost assessing each other about whether you

40:17

want to come back or not and

40:19

and that's sort of thing. But it's,

40:21

yeah, it's all about how, the stuff

40:24

you can't really measure, you know, like

40:26

how it feels in the room. And,

40:28

and, and, and often, it's interesting because

40:31

some of the people that I would

40:33

sit within that first session, I think,

40:35

and everything back, I'm not sure. And

40:38

then, and then they do. And then

40:40

each session, they get a bit more

40:42

comfortable and a bit more comfortable than

40:45

you imagine they are, because It's completely

40:47

different how they feel and they're in

40:49

their normal lives though. Okay, so what

40:52

makes a good patient then how can

40:54

we be better like going into things?

40:56

You know if we do find that

40:59

match Yeah, because I think there's a

41:01

certain type of person who goes to

41:03

therapy saying okay now fix me Right,

41:05

yeah, that's definitely the that's kind of

41:08

the standard. Yeah, most people I think

41:10

when they think of it. They're like

41:12

yeah, if I'm gonna go to therapy

41:15

you should fix me That's obviously not

41:17

how it works though. So what makes

41:19

a like how can we be better?

41:22

I think if you go to therapy,

41:24

it's having some sort of idea of

41:26

what you're wanting out of it. But

41:29

saying that, actually, I've done work with

41:31

people where we kind of, that's a

41:33

collaborative piece of work anyway, a lot

41:36

of people come to therapy and they're

41:38

good. I don't really know what's wrong,

41:40

it just everything doesn't feel right, and

41:43

I'm just a bit lost. And so

41:45

that, you know, the development of goals

41:47

is then a part of that formulation

41:50

of what on earths going on then,

41:52

what's changed, what's, what's, what's, what's part

41:54

of, what's part of, guided discovery together

41:57

around how have we got here and

41:59

what's that about and so I guess

42:01

that willingness to be honest is a

42:04

big one because the therapist only knows

42:06

as much as you tell them and

42:08

so if someone is going to get

42:11

you know if I'm going to get

42:13

the most out of a therapy experience

42:15

that's where the trust and the relationship

42:17

comes in I need to be able

42:20

to go in there say everything even

42:22

when it feels uncomfortable to do that

42:24

and then if that person is a

42:27

skilled enough therapist you know, you're going

42:29

to stand the best chance of getting

42:31

something out of it, I think. When

42:34

should you, when should you leave a

42:36

therapist for, not for good reasons, but

42:38

like if there is a, if you're

42:41

having, when's it time to break up

42:43

with your therapist, I guess, yeah. Well,

42:45

do you know what, any decent therapist

42:48

will have the ending in their mind

42:50

already? Okay. We're often, often, often talked

42:52

about that, but, you know, endings are

42:55

really difficult for a lot of people,

42:57

and the end is your goal. So,

42:59

you know, you start with that sense,

43:02

not necessarily a set number of sessions

43:04

or anything like that, but you start

43:06

with how, especially if endings are difficult

43:09

for the person, how that's going to

43:11

be prepared for. And so, usually if

43:13

you've got decent efforts, that that ending

43:16

will be, yeah, prepared for and... thought

43:18

about long in advance about how that's

43:20

going to be done because what you're

43:22

doing is you're modeling a decent ending.

43:25

Lots of people have really negative endings

43:27

in their life that are quite traumatic.

43:29

And so if you can model positive

43:32

ending and give yourselves a degree of

43:34

control around what that looks like and

43:36

what makes it positive, then they've got

43:39

a new template in their mind for

43:41

what a positive ending is like. And

43:43

so that in itself is really, really

43:46

valuable. Yeah, never thought of it that

43:48

way. That's interesting. My favorite section of

43:50

this was open when everything feels pointless.

43:53

Oh yeah. But not because everything feels

43:55

impossible or hard, but because I'm just

43:57

a miserable existentialist. Let's bring the darkness

44:00

back. Yeah, to bring the darkness. Yeah,

44:02

speaking with the darkness. Yeah, speaking with

44:04

the darkness. Yeah, speaking with the darkness,

44:07

who, you know, smokes my skinny French

44:09

cigarettes. come to you and just in

44:11

the space of like what what when

44:14

everything does feel pointless. Yeah I mean

44:16

I do think nihilism is it's a

44:18

real thing these days like I run

44:21

I struggle with it and then I

44:23

run into a lot of people my

44:25

age or Jinzi who struggle with it

44:28

and yeah I don't know I guess

44:30

I don't have that's one I don't

44:32

have any answer to you have a

44:34

book chapter on Dr. Julie well I

44:37

wouldn't say I have all the answers

44:39

to it but I do see it

44:41

coming up a lot yeah for sure

44:44

and and I also think it's a

44:46

natural part of being human too. I

44:48

don't know anyone who's not experienced thoughts

44:51

around that or it often accompanies about

44:53

of low mood and then sometimes we

44:55

assume that those thoughts came first when

44:58

sometimes they come second. If I'm not,

45:00

I don't know. Three kids in if

45:02

I haven't had good sleep for a

45:05

week. I'll start to question my life

45:07

choices You know and that's the thing

45:09

is is often the thoughts don't comfort

45:12

and and so sometimes we give such

45:14

Such value to the thought as if

45:16

Because I'm thinking this way it must

45:19

be true Same with like emotional reasoning,

45:21

you know because I feel like everything

45:23

is pointless everything is pointless everything must

45:26

be pointless and actually maybe it's because

45:28

you know you're socially isolated, you haven't

45:30

exercised for six months and you haven't

45:33

slept well recently or you're not eating

45:35

well and all that's given your mood

45:37

a dip and now you're questioning life.

45:39

So sometimes it's about sort of again

45:42

formulating that thing, getting a bird's eye

45:44

view of it or what's going on,

45:46

what's made you vulnerable to feeling this

45:49

way because sometimes it's just a combination

45:51

of stuff isn't it? And in that

45:53

sense, then kind of tripping out of

45:56

it is easier. than when it's just

45:58

a constant worrying about whether life is

46:00

in actually pointless. Yeah. Yeah. And I

46:03

think too, what you mentioned there, when

46:05

you take your feelings as the base

46:07

level truth of any. situation that you're

46:10

you're asking for. That's that's not good.

46:12

Yeah. Like if you say yes everything

46:14

feels pointless so it must be pointless

46:17

or relationships are hard for me so

46:19

they're just not worth it period the

46:21

end. Taking that small one example and

46:24

then generalizing it to the rest of

46:26

your life is just a recipe for

46:28

disaster over and over again. Yeah, repeated

46:31

disaster actually. Yeah. Yeah. And a big

46:33

part of what happens in... a therapy

46:35

called DBT that's around helping people regulate

46:38

their emotions and tolerate distress. A lot

46:40

of all of that is teaching people

46:42

how to manage emotion and look at

46:44

it in a different way. So, you

46:47

know, one of those skills is about

46:49

asking, okay, if this big emotion is

46:51

here and it's uncomfortable, rather than do

46:54

anything drastic to push it away and

46:56

numb it, I'm going to ask, okay,

46:58

is it warranted? And is it proportionate

47:01

to the situation? The thing is that

47:03

emotion is we know it can't be

47:05

fact because it's influenced by so many

47:08

other things. You know it's influenced by

47:10

the state of your body and your

47:12

blood pressure and what you've eaten today

47:15

and how much coffee you've had and

47:17

how much sleep you've had and it's

47:19

influenced by the people around you. You

47:22

know, we are the best and worst

47:24

things for each other's nervous system. It's

47:26

influenced by your work environment and the

47:29

pressures on you and how much exercise

47:31

you've had and... whatever. So many things

47:33

that can impact on your emotional state.

47:36

Therefore, if we just, when we experience

47:38

an intense or painful emotion, if we

47:40

take that to be fact, we could

47:43

be way off. And then if we

47:45

do something impulsive in response to it,

47:47

we could kind of be sabotaging something

47:50

really important to it with the relationship

47:52

or a job or whatever. So a

47:54

lot of those kind of skills that

47:56

we teach people around. and dealing with

47:59

emotion, is a lot of pause, wait,

48:01

look at it, is it warranted, is

48:03

it proportionate? if it's not, let's just

48:06

slow everything down and think it through.

48:08

Yeah. Yeah, and I think like you

48:10

said too, sometimes just being okay with

48:13

the emotion, you know, being okay with

48:15

the sense of pointlessness for a while

48:17

and understanding that doesn't necessarily make it

48:20

true, but it's okay to feel this

48:22

way at times. And, you know, like

48:24

the weather. you know in meditation and

48:27

Buddhism they talk about how like emotions

48:29

are like weather patterns you know yeah

48:31

it's like you can watch them pass

48:34

those same way you watch a cloud

48:36

pass you know yeah so it's just

48:38

because it's rainy today it doesn't mean

48:41

it's life is rainy yeah it's just

48:43

rainy today yeah indeed and if you

48:45

think of those kind of life as

48:48

pointless pointless type thoughts as as fundamental

48:50

to human experience as a cloud is

48:52

to weather yeah then you can notice

48:55

that feeling come and go and you

48:57

know then when it does come it

48:59

doesn't have to last forever but also

49:01

it will return at some point and

49:04

that's okay and that's normal but like

49:06

you said it doesn't mean that forever

49:08

you know clouds are forever but also

49:11

that there are things you can do

49:13

so it is cloudy and rainy it

49:15

doesn't mean you stop living the life

49:18

that matters to you it means you

49:20

put coat on when you go out

49:22

you know so there are certain things

49:25

you can do to sort of soothe

49:27

your way through those difficult emotions and

49:29

and help you through it while they're

49:32

there yeah I just had a thought

49:34

too that there's there's like probably a

49:36

hidden value in the nihilism because like

49:39

really what nihilism is is just a

49:41

questioning of the value of anything and

49:43

you need to be able to question

49:46

the value of Everything, right? Like you

49:48

need everything in your life you should

49:50

be able to actually like stand back

49:53

and question like is this actually really

49:55

important? Should I be focusing on this?

49:57

Should I care about this? And that

50:00

same, I guess, mental system that is

50:02

doing that will have moments where it's

50:04

on overdraw. and you just kind of

50:07

feel that way about everything. The reframe

50:09

that I always come back to when

50:11

I get that way is like, if

50:13

there's no reason to do anything, there's

50:16

also no reason to not do anything.

50:18

Like it's, if everything's pointless, then I

50:20

have no excuse to not go do

50:23

all the good things that I know

50:25

I could do. Yeah. You know? And

50:27

actually given a certain set of circumstances,

50:30

it would become... very clear very quickly

50:32

what actually matters to you. But the

50:34

list of those things would be so

50:37

small that it's so then easy to

50:39

work at, you know, and it's usually

50:41

always the people in our lives that

50:44

are closest to us. That is what

50:46

matters the most, right? They're the only

50:48

things you grab in a scary situation.

50:51

And so sometimes I think when we

50:53

ask the question, we're looking for something.

50:55

that you know far out from what

50:58

actually matters. We're looking for some sort

51:00

of something we can strive towards and

51:02

actually what matters is right here makes

51:05

you on the sofa and so often

51:07

we spend so much time I think

51:09

maybe that's a product of like you

51:12

know just constantly being marketed to about

51:14

stuff we can buy and stuff but

51:16

if you're constantly focused on all of

51:18

that outward stuff it starts to feel

51:21

pointless but if we if you turn

51:23

towards that feeling with curiosity rather than

51:25

judgment It tells you that, doesn't it?

51:28

It tells you, okay, if I'm spending

51:30

most of my life on stuff that

51:32

doesn't seem to matter, then what does,

51:35

and how can I then spend more

51:37

time doing the thing that truly matters

51:39

to me? And, you know, I'm the

51:42

same when I talk about kind of

51:44

doing this work, which is really and

51:46

feels really valuable, but if I spend

51:49

too much time doing that and I'm

51:51

not being the parent I want to

51:53

be, forget it. Like it all feels

51:56

out the window. So, so, but if

51:58

I listen to that if I listen

52:00

to that. It tells me what I

52:03

need, which is to be doing the

52:05

thing that matters most to me. Yeah.

52:07

Yeah. Cool. So we solve nihilism. We

52:10

solve therapy. I won my argument with

52:12

Drew. Anything else? Anything else? Anything else

52:14

we need to cover? Just a little

52:17

bit more naval dancing actually is what

52:19

I would. You have a chapter on

52:21

parents, a couple chapters on parenting actually,

52:24

but the one, when your parents got

52:26

it wrong, when, from your experience, how

52:28

do parents often or most commonly get

52:30

it wrong? And how does that affect

52:33

people? Right question. I don't know if

52:35

there's a. a most common mistake because

52:37

everybody's lives are so different, right? But

52:40

I think certainly a mistake that we

52:42

make when we think about the parent,

52:44

the mistakes that our parents made is

52:47

that we, as we sort of move

52:49

into adulthood, we still treat that relationship

52:51

with our parents as if it's a

52:54

parent-child relationship. Yeah, so we're still in

52:56

that kind of child mode or that

52:58

child kind of position, which invites them

53:01

to continue being the parent and then

53:03

we feel frustrated about them behaving in

53:05

that way because we're a big adult

53:08

now and also that we expect them

53:10

as the parent to create the relationship

53:12

that we always wish we had with

53:15

them despite the fact that we're now

53:17

in an adult-to-adult relationship so that we

53:19

have now more agency than we ever

53:22

really sort of give ourselves credit for

53:24

to create the relationship that we want

53:26

with them. And so rather than focusing

53:29

on, are my parents giving me what

53:31

I need and making me feel what

53:33

I want to feel, what am I

53:35

bringing to them? And how am I

53:38

contributing to this relationship in a positive

53:40

way? And am I doing anything that

53:42

keeps it stuck in a difficult scenario

53:45

and thinking about things that happen in

53:47

the past? And a lot of people

53:49

kind of have this fun to see

53:52

that their parents could just see the

53:54

mistakes they made and... you know, apologize

53:56

for it and the, you know, it

53:59

would be okay, right? Just change one.

54:01

Yeah, yeah. And it sort of neglects

54:03

the fact that no one, no

54:06

parent has a manual

54:08

and those, you know, our

54:10

own parents had their

54:12

own traumas and

54:15

difficult backgrounds that

54:17

they were dealing with and

54:19

much less insight than

54:21

we have now about what

54:24

parenting should look like.

54:26

And we're sometimes assuming

54:29

that they now have the insight that

54:31

we have, but actually most of them

54:33

probably have just as little insight as

54:35

they ever had about how parenting should

54:38

go. And so I think it really

54:40

helps to kind of adjust our

54:42

expectations about what kind of

54:45

relationship with my parents is possible.

54:47

And if I'm looking at what I would

54:49

be okay with and what I would be happy

54:51

with, all I can look at is what I

54:53

can bring to that to make that

54:56

possible. But we still can't change them.

54:58

We can't, you know, we can't sort of

55:00

magic some insight into them that would, you

55:02

know, make them the parents we always

55:04

wanted them to be, but we can,

55:06

we have this ability to kind of choose

55:08

to a degree, the kind of relationship we

55:11

have with them. If that means less

55:13

of a relationship, because they're terrible people,

55:15

then so be it, if it means

55:17

more of one, then how do you

55:19

create that now that you're in that

55:21

adult position? Like if you're somebody who

55:23

grew up. with dysfunctional

55:26

parents or parents who maybe didn't

55:28

do a great job. Where is

55:30

the boundary between healing from

55:33

that and just scapegoating them

55:35

for your problems? Yeah, because that's

55:37

a lot of the kind of

55:39

social stuff, isn't it? You know,

55:42

your parents got it wrong and

55:44

did this and did that and... You

55:46

were raised by a narcissist. Yeah, and

55:48

you know, you have to heal and... And

55:50

I guess there's the second part of that

55:52

that really gets me as well is this

55:54

that you have to be healed before you

55:56

can get into relationship with someone.

55:58

Yeah, good luck. Enjoy be alone.

56:01

Enjoy be alone. That's your life. This

56:03

is kind of idea of like heal

56:05

this like some sort of perfect human

56:07

that you never arrive at and the

56:09

other person has to be healed too.

56:12

They have to be just as mindful

56:14

and yeah just doesn't happen like that

56:16

and and it gives that impression as

56:18

well that relationships are too normal and

56:20

normally imperfect human beings who work together

56:22

to make the best of what they

56:25

can with what they've got. And in

56:27

the process, probably learn a lot about

56:29

themselves and each other and how to

56:31

make it work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I

56:33

got one more. Okay. I want to

56:35

end on it. And it's a cheery

56:38

note. Yes. Yeah. Because you have a

56:40

chapter that says when you hate who

56:42

you've become. So soft flow of them.

56:44

Let's talk about. Go back to the

56:46

darkness here. Go back to the darkness.

56:49

You have this little passage, and I'm

56:51

sorry if I'm borrowing too much here,

56:53

but it says, you might tell yourself

56:55

as long as I am liked by

56:57

everyone around me, then I'm okay. So

56:59

you set to work on making sure

57:02

that others think you are helpful and

57:04

kind and worthwhile. This is an impossible

57:06

task to sustain that will absorb as

57:08

much energy as you're able to put

57:10

into it and much more. First of

57:12

all, I feel attacked. If I would

57:15

say I push back a little bit

57:17

on it, because this was definitely something

57:19

where it's like, yeah, I wanted, I

57:21

didn't really like who I was, I'm

57:23

going to show everybody that I'm actually,

57:26

I'm helpful, I'm worthwhile, I'm kind and

57:28

all this. And through that, I feel

57:30

like I was like, oh, okay, I

57:32

started out doing that for other people,

57:34

but then I found, actually, no, I

57:36

am through those actions, I am a

57:39

competent person, and I've built these skills,

57:41

and I'm okay with that I'm okay

57:43

with that I'm okay with that, and

57:45

I'm okay with that, and I'm okay

57:47

with that, and I'm okay with that,

57:49

and I'm okay with that, and I'm

57:52

okay with that, and I'm okay with

57:54

that, and I'm okay with that, and

57:56

I'm okay with that, and I'm okay

57:58

with that, and I'm okay with that,

58:00

and I'm okay with that, and I'm

58:03

okay with that, and I'm okay with

58:05

that, and But I do think there

58:07

are a lot of people who struggle

58:09

with that, who don't like themselves and

58:11

they think, well, then I just need

58:13

to do these things. to make other

58:16

people like me and then I'll be

58:18

fine, get into that place of, you

58:20

know, perfect health like you were talking

58:22

about. What do you say to people

58:24

like that? Well, it's quite a sort

58:26

of, I guess it's quite a complex

58:29

scenario in the people, like people like

58:31

yourself where you experience something and then

58:33

you gain from the insight that you

58:35

get over time and you gain from

58:37

all the positive action that it led

58:40

to and you learn and mature as

58:42

you go. And then there are other

58:44

people whom... feel that so strongly that

58:46

it makes them vulnerable to all sorts

58:48

of problems in relationships with exploitation or

58:50

abuse or those kind of things where

58:53

they just have no concept that their

58:55

own judgment of things could be the

58:57

right one or you know everything is

58:59

outward or the agency is outward and

59:01

and it's a really dangerous scenario you

59:03

know if you can't advocate for yourself.

59:06

It puts you at risk of almost

59:08

everything in relationships. And so it's quite

59:10

complex work to sort of address when

59:12

it's that severe, but some of it

59:14

is down to, you know, like the

59:17

assertiveness skills and changing that communication, but

59:19

also, you know, the problem is rarely

59:21

with the word no, the problem is

59:23

with the feeling that comes with it

59:25

and, you know, the guilt and the

59:27

shame of putting your own needs first

59:30

and those kind of things. So again,

59:32

it comes back to all the... the

59:34

skills around dealing with emotion and because

59:36

when you when you can accept that

59:38

emotions can also be an echo of

59:40

the past then they don't hold you

59:43

back so much so so when your

59:45

you know your brain is constantly taking

59:47

information from the outside world to make

59:49

meaning things but it's also taking information

59:51

from what your body's doing and your

59:54

blood pressure and all that but it's

59:56

also taking shortcuts so it's also taking

59:58

in memories of when you felt similar

1:00:00

to this in the past and using

1:00:02

that to help make sense of what

1:00:04

whatever situation you're in now. So if

1:00:07

in the past it made sense for

1:00:09

you to please everybody all of the

1:00:11

time, maybe it was dangerous not to,

1:00:13

right? That made sense. So those emotional

1:00:15

experiences are going to be just as

1:00:17

strong as an adult in those kind

1:00:20

of difficult situations as they were as

1:00:22

a child. But it doesn't mean they

1:00:24

now make sense to, they might hold

1:00:26

you back and put you at risk,

1:00:28

right? So some of that work would

1:00:31

be around recognizing that emotion to be.

1:00:33

an echo of the past or something

1:00:35

that made sense back then but needs

1:00:37

updating now so that you can act

1:00:39

in line with your new insight despite

1:00:41

the fact that the feeling of guilt

1:00:44

or shame is there. Really easy for

1:00:46

me to sit here and say it

1:00:48

really hard to do in practice and

1:00:50

takes people time to work on it

1:00:52

but it's absolutely possible. I mean I've

1:00:54

seen yeah I've seen people change their

1:00:57

lives with it. Yeah, I think that

1:00:59

makes a lot of sense to me

1:01:01

too, because I think I did eventually

1:01:03

realize like, oh, this is all from

1:01:05

emotions from the past or echoes from

1:01:08

the past like you're saying. Yeah. Like

1:01:10

I didn't have to be boxed in

1:01:12

with that. Yeah, that's a good point.

1:01:14

A lot of people get that with,

1:01:16

you know, everyone wants approval from their

1:01:18

parents, right? But if your parents are

1:01:21

particularly kind of difficult or highly critical

1:01:23

or have their own kind of issues,

1:01:25

sometimes you then get to a point

1:01:27

in adulthood where you realize... I'm not

1:01:29

sure I need this approval anymore. I've

1:01:31

set up my own life, I've got

1:01:34

my own set of values, and there's

1:01:36

this kind of liberation in realizing I

1:01:38

can base my decisions on those values

1:01:40

and my family rather than constantly seeking

1:01:42

approval from parents, and I guess that's

1:01:45

a normal sign of maturity. Free therapy

1:01:47

session. Yeah, all right. Well, I'm gonna

1:01:49

end our therapy relationship. I feel completely

1:01:51

healed. I'm completely healed. I'm ready to

1:01:53

face the world. Julie, thank you so

1:01:55

much for coming out. The book is...

1:01:58

Open win, which my camera?

1:02:00

I'll do there's

1:02:02

my camera my camera

1:02:04

Open available everywhere Julie Smith

1:02:06

anything you want to add Smith

1:02:08

That's it. That was you want

1:02:11

to add very much. I made

1:02:13

a better place. was about

1:02:15

time You're ready for a relationship

1:02:17

I'm very much I'm in a better place. It's about

1:02:19

time He's ready for a relationship now The subtle art

1:02:21

of not a fuck podcast is

1:02:24

produced by by Drew Bernie. It's

1:02:26

edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choi videographer

1:02:28

and sound engineer. Thank you

1:02:30

for listening for we will see

1:02:32

you next week next week.