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is a CBC podcast The

0:38

following episode contains difficult subject

0:40

matter including references to sexual

0:43

assault, please take care Okay,

0:50

so Mary Ann tell

0:52

me everything Last

0:56

night we had an officer appear at

0:58

our door at 1130 at night and

1:01

asked us to get in touch with Detective

1:04

Gilpin and then called

1:06

her and she let me know that

1:09

Anthony Ringel had been arrested and

1:11

charged with murder of my daughter

1:17

Mary Ann says police haven't told her

1:19

much more about this the second time

1:21

Ringel's been arrested for Chrissy's murder The

1:24

first time was almost 10 years earlier

1:27

and the charges were stayed and the

1:29

case went nowhere It's

1:31

been nine months since my CBC doc

1:34

aired Ringel is now 44 years old

1:38

Christine Karen would have been now 34 years

1:40

of age The

1:43

OPP press conference at the Walkerton

1:45

police station filled with media

1:48

family and people from the area

1:51

There is no happy ending to this

1:53

investigation for Marianne Christine's mom I

1:56

know that this has been a roller coaster

1:59

of emotional high and lows

2:01

for the family since

2:03

it began over 19 years ago. Detective

2:08

Inspector Christine Gilpin. Gilpin

2:11

had given me very little information

2:13

during my own investigation and she's

2:15

certainly not revealing a lot now

2:18

either. So what's

2:20

changed that's allowed police to

2:22

re-arrest Ringel? I

2:24

was going to ask him when this is of no disrespect

2:27

to the family but I have to ask have you found

2:29

Christine? I can't

2:31

discuss the evidence that we have discovered

2:34

and I don't want to cause any problems

2:37

with the court process so

2:39

I'm unable to provide you with that information at

2:41

this time. Police

2:45

never found Christine on any

2:47

of their searches after Ringel's

2:49

confession and several mistakes that

2:51

the court determined were made by OPP investigator

2:54

Mark Wright caused the crown to

2:56

stay the charges against Ringel. Detective

3:00

Inspector Gilpin messaged me after

3:02

my CBC documentary aired saying

3:04

quote so you know I

3:06

we had nothing to do with what

3:08

Mark Wright did that

3:11

was just him. There has been

3:13

a certain level of frustration with

3:15

the length of this and some

3:17

directed at OPP and police that

3:19

have been but before this. With

3:23

no real answers forthcoming from police the

3:25

reporters press in on Mary Ann who

3:28

is seated off to the side at

3:30

the back of the room. One of

3:32

them asks Mary Ann

3:36

how she feels after

3:39

hearing the OPP announcement.

3:42

I'm just glad that it's finally gotten to

3:44

this point where they've been able to arrest

3:47

him again for her murder we're

3:49

very thankful for that and hopefully you

3:52

know justice will be had. The

3:55

word closure comes out quite a bit I mean that

3:57

there is no such thing as closure. The

4:03

word closure is one that most of

4:05

the victims' families I've worked with despise,

4:08

and here reporters are forcing the

4:10

question before Marianne knows anything. What

4:14

happened with Ringel, and

4:16

will any of it lead to us actually

4:19

knowing what happened to Chrissy on May

4:21

18th, 1993? I'm

4:27

David Ridgene and this is Someone Knows Something

4:29

Season 9, The Christine Herron

4:31

Case Episode 4, Till

4:34

the Day I Die. 75

4:59

days after my CBC

5:02

documentary went

5:07

to air in May 2012,

5:09

police begin field operations

5:25

involving Ringel in the same trailer park

5:27

where I had confronted him. This

5:45

police operation proceeded over several months,

5:48

guided by Detective Inspector Gilpin and

5:50

involved a handful of Corps officers,

5:52

undercover men and women whom I

5:54

shall refer to as UCs. I

6:00

phoned a lawyer three times and the last time I

6:02

phoned a lawyer, I said

6:05

to the lawyer, they want me to do something

6:07

that I don't want to do. And

6:11

after that, they fucking took me somewhere.

6:14

And made me do what they wanted? Yeah.

6:19

So they didn't find anything? Yeah, they

6:21

didn't find nothing. So

6:23

there's nobody? Yeah, they

6:26

fucking wasted your time. I was afraid you

6:28

were murdered, there's no fucking murder. Seriously,

6:31

I wasn't murdered, there's no proof of murder. You

6:58

need to restart. No?

7:06

No restart. You're

7:10

in no fucking

7:45

nose or everything, get the day off, we're going

7:47

to Walmart first thing in the morning. Walmart

7:58

open now? The

8:00

room and, it seems, the UCs

8:02

themselves are rigged with hidden microphones

8:04

that also record. They

8:07

call Ringo Dozer because of the way he

8:09

likes to drive into or over other cars

8:11

in the game. This

8:19

rather empty looking setting would serve as

8:21

a launch pad for trying to extract

8:24

a confession from Ringo. 100%

8:30

yeah, I had to tell him.

8:34

When this all came to the surface like

8:36

that, I had to tell him. But that's

8:39

the thing, he doesn't fucking judge me, he

8:41

knows and I told him. One

8:45

of the main stories UCs try

8:47

to drive home to Ringo about

8:49

themselves involves a landscaper who is

8:51

enduring a tough divorce and losing

8:53

everything. The other UC

8:55

is a friend of the landscaper and

8:57

presents himself as having been caught in

9:00

a relationship with an underage girl, a

9:02

14-ish year old that seems to fit

9:04

Christine's age. The

9:06

UC involved in this underage relationship gets

9:09

away with it, the story goes, because

9:11

the landscaper stands up for him and

9:13

can be trusted. Anytime

9:24

you ever doubt that, just remember that fucking

9:26

story I just told you playing. It's

9:30

all meant to position and present a

9:32

predicament of shared experience that they hope

9:34

might stimulate Ringo to open up and

9:36

confide in them. I

9:39

didn't bring this on me. She's

9:41

the one that came on to me since she was

9:43

like, how old? We're in her

9:45

fancy stuff. Like

9:47

even if you got a lawyer, your lawyer

9:49

would go in questioning her, right? And

9:52

she says the wrong fucking thing? But

9:57

while the story of the UC's affair

9:59

with a gang, teenage girl gets Ringel

10:01

somewhat engaged, he says nothing

10:04

specific to Christine. That's

10:07

probably that one at the top where the bone

10:09

only is. Eat bowl

10:11

or snooker? Yeah, see? The

10:14

UCs constantly shift their approach,

10:16

trying to build rapport. I

10:19

thought you had your beer? And

10:25

they develop talking opportunities

10:27

featuring Coors Light, pizzas,

10:29

restaurants, pool halls, ice

10:31

fishing, a strip club, and

10:34

even exchanging pornography DVDs. Like

10:38

up here, it was

10:40

like nothing on her arm, and you could

10:43

see the bra strap at the back, because

10:45

it went like this, it looked down. During

10:51

the operation Ringel would talk about young

10:53

women as being objects, objects

10:55

of his desire. Not

10:58

unless you're actually following them, but

11:01

then you gotta make it look like you're not following them.

11:05

Ringel would tell the UCs that he

11:07

knew where many young women lived in

11:10

the Chesley and Hanover area, that he

11:12

had followed them and techniques he uses

11:14

such as circling back or doing parallels

11:17

to make sure you don't get caught.

11:28

On a trip to a London, Ontario

11:30

mall, Ringel spies young women he describes

11:32

to the UCs as being under 16

11:34

years old. One

11:36

of them in particular, Ringel says, is

11:38

about 13, wearing a pink

11:40

sweater and leotard. Ringel

11:43

wants to show her to the UCs, but

11:45

he can't find her again and it frustrates

11:48

him. But

12:04

these simpatico trust-building scenes still

12:06

do not bring Ringo any

12:08

closer to talking specifically about

12:10

past connection to Christine Herron.

12:14

In late November, a more direct method

12:16

is used. What's

12:22

the word, is? Oh,

12:24

what's this? What

12:27

is that? Anybody

12:29

else come from the room?

12:32

Missing posters showing a photo of Chrissy

12:34

and the basics of her disappearance are

12:36

put up by police operatives around town.

12:39

One, right on the UC's car

12:42

windshield. Ringo picks it

12:44

up but initially turns it so that the

12:46

UC can't see it. Anybody

12:49

else got one of them? Ringo

12:51

shows the poster to the UC. Seen

12:57

a kid before? Somebody

12:59

just go missing or? Oh

13:03

no, she's been gone from 1993. And

13:06

they're just fucking looking for

13:08

it now? Okay,

13:11

so... Ringo

13:14

throws the poster on the floor of the

13:16

vehicle. Maybe the kid ran

13:18

away and doesn't want to be found. Two

13:24

weeks later, the missing Chrissy poster comes

13:26

up again. Here's

13:29

the thing, okay, I seen her picture one

13:31

day and I actually definitely said

13:33

something to a cop about the picture.

13:37

That they seen it and they took it the wrong

13:39

way. Right. And

13:41

they ended up charging it. But

13:44

then it's okay. You get

13:46

it though? The

13:49

one that's been gone for 15 years? That's

13:52

the one that you went to jail for. This

13:56

one. Yeah. much

18:00

shorter version of my film and

18:03

Ringle notices. Christine

18:05

Herron. That's

18:07

a girl. It ended. That's weird.

18:11

Oh, is it? Is that more than

18:13

that? Just a little. It

18:16

won't be long. Let's

18:18

find her a... Ringle,

18:20

who has seen the original doc, wants

18:22

to watch the 20-minute long version and

18:24

urges the UC to find it. So

18:27

the UC searching the actual internet

18:30

finds it, linked to a CBC

18:32

article I wrote about Chrissy's case.

18:35

Ringle leans in and together

18:37

he and the UC watch,

18:39

stopping, starting and replaying for

18:42

the next four hours. That's

18:46

my new trailer. Here's my trailer.

18:51

That's why I thought he was a cop. He's

18:53

not. Ringle

18:56

apparently thought I was a cop when I

18:59

knocked on his trailer door. Did

19:01

you have a chance to tell your mum before she

19:03

died that he's what you say? Remember, I just woke

19:05

up. You didn't kill Christine? Yeah. Did

19:08

you ever tell her that? No. So

19:11

she's not thinking that you might have murdered her? Pardon?

19:13

I didn't talk to her. No, you didn't talk

19:15

to her? Nobody. Her

19:18

mother's wondering what happened. She

19:21

doesn't know either. Ringle

19:25

watching interacts with the documentary

19:27

with my voiceover, answering,

19:29

not my problem. And

19:32

the conversation ends with more questions.

19:34

See, he didn't mention

19:37

the question. As Ringle

19:39

watches his commentary increases,

19:42

his statements become focused on Christine,

19:44

the imagery I shot and the

19:46

words I'm saying. He's

19:49

opening up. The

19:51

UC hits play again. The

19:53

Hanover Park and Sogine River appear on

19:55

the screen. That's

19:59

the park head. Hanover's public park, one

20:02

of Christine's favorite places. Ringel

20:20

seems visibly struck by the thought that

20:22

the little Hanover park on the Soggin

20:24

River was one of Chrissy's favorite places.

20:27

Then they watched the part of the

20:30

documentary where I described from documents what

20:32

Ringel said to police in 2004 about

20:35

what he did to Christine. I don't understand

20:38

why they couldn't find it. Hmm. To all of you,

20:40

almost buried. I

20:53

don't understand. How

20:55

could they have? What's good for

20:58

you? I think it's

21:00

because of all the funds. What? Ringel

21:04

thinks that the flooding at the banks of

21:06

the Soggin could be a reason for why

21:08

Chrissy was not found. They

21:10

couldn't find it. They

21:31

couldn't find fucking shit. In

21:34

the hidden video recordings, I can

21:36

see the UC becoming noticeably excited

21:38

about the documentary's effect on Ringel

21:41

as they crouch over the laptop

21:43

sitting on the couches. Once

21:46

the gate begins to open, Ringel

21:48

pushes through it, keeps

21:50

going, and keeps talking.

22:00

what is alleged to have happened the day Christine

22:02

Karen ran away. The way that is. Where?

22:06

That's in the park. It's

22:08

a documentary on the river. Yeah, on her, you know, the

22:11

river. They're not

22:13

actually showing where we crossed or

22:15

fucking blah blah blah. Right.

22:21

Hmm. Wait, two minutes.

22:24

Fuck off the trail and you're right there.

22:28

They couldn't buy a boat. Yeah.

22:30

It goes around the bend. I've never been there.

22:32

So I don't get, I don't know. It goes

22:34

around the bend and then moves that way.

22:37

So at the end of that tip,

22:39

that's where we crossed. Ringel,

22:43

who says he took police to the right spot

22:45

back in 2004, seems upset here because I

22:49

didn't film the exact spot. He says

22:51

he crossed the Sogine River with Chrissy.

22:54

It keeps him talking. Like

22:57

how'd you find her? Was it

22:59

for touring or is it like... The

23:02

UC asks how Ringel came to

23:04

meet Christine and uses Ringel's word

23:06

touring or looking for young girls

23:08

or police to the right spot

23:11

back in 2004 seems upset here

23:13

because I didn't film the

23:15

exact spot. He says he crossed

23:17

the Sogine River with Chrissy. It

23:20

keeps him talking. Like

23:22

how'd you find her? Was it

23:24

for touring or is it like... The

23:27

UC asks how Ringel came to

23:29

meet Christine and uses Ringel's word

23:32

touring or looking for young girls

23:34

around town. Walking.

23:38

Just tell me to walk. I

23:41

went for a walk one day too. Oh

23:44

shit. See? I

23:46

don't know where it happened. I

23:49

really want to walk. I went for a walk and then

23:51

all the time I jumped into a chick. What'd

23:59

you say to her? Ringel

24:03

says he said what's

24:05

down there to Chrissy. Ringel

24:23

says Chrissy didn't really say anything.

24:27

As a 15 year old girl, alone,

24:29

being accosted by a 24 year

24:31

old man, I think Chrissy would

24:33

have been afraid to do anything that might

24:35

provoke a negative reaction. The

24:42

UC asks Ringel what made him do it

24:44

that day. It's

24:46

such a frustration, right? It's

24:49

such a frustration. It's such

24:51

a frustration. Well, you talk her right

24:53

away or no? I can say. What

24:56

do you mean? What

24:59

did she say? She didn't say,

25:01

oh, oh. Like

25:04

I said, a 14 year old should know. She

25:07

should know better. That's the right thing. It's

25:09

not all your fault, right? No,

25:11

she didn't seem too happy when

25:13

she was in the car. Opportunity

25:18

knocked, and you got

25:20

an answer. I

25:23

think it was her time. Opportunity

25:30

knocked. I think it was her time.

25:34

Hearing Ringel try to justify the brutal

25:36

events he's describing is difficult to listen

25:38

to, but the UC

25:41

presses forward. So

25:43

it shows the river earlier. It shows how it

25:45

shows all the current river now. Oh

25:48

yeah, it's back. So how did

25:50

you guys get across him? Hey,

25:53

you better find the question. People jumped

25:55

in the effort. Oh. Ringel

26:00

says he pushed Chrissy into the river

26:02

and then followed her across. Ringel

26:29

says he has to swim after Chrissy to

26:31

keep her from floating down river and he

26:33

pulls her to the opposite bank. Ringel

26:53

says Chrissy's glasses came off in the

26:55

water and wonders why they weren't found.

26:59

From here more specific details begin

27:01

to come out about

27:03

what Ringel thinks, about what

27:05

Ringel says he did. And

27:07

I've omitted some of the most difficult to

27:10

hear but I still urge caution for listeners.

27:22

Was it before crossing the river

27:25

or after and Ringel says

27:28

after. I

27:41

can't remember if it was face down or

27:44

I flipped her over. I

28:02

remember doing whatever and

28:04

then going. I don't

28:07

want to try to remember. But when

28:09

this computer is saying one thing, this

28:11

is the best position is asking me.

28:14

So when it says it, you

28:16

know, like that she was around.

28:18

Just say she couldn't fucking move

28:21

the way I did. Let's

28:25

just say she couldn't fucking move the way I

28:27

did it. Can

28:30

you like, can you describe it? Like is

28:32

it like what's it like? So

28:34

how do you tie a person up without

28:38

without will? I

28:40

don't know. Good

28:42

question. How do you?

28:44

Jack. Oh,

28:49

Jack. I

28:51

did that. Yeah.

28:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

29:02

Yeah, I can't fucking move now. Oh,

29:06

shit, eh? When

29:10

she's on the ground, I can

29:12

do anything. Yeah. Like

29:16

pull off a pin of paper. Yeah.

29:20

Right. So what did she

29:23

say to them? She wouldn't tell anybody, but

29:25

then later

29:27

on she's gonna say it hurt. It

29:30

hurt. She's

29:32

gonna tell them. Yeah.

29:36

Where's the question a lot? I don't

29:38

like telling them

29:41

anything. Well, you go and you say something. I

29:46

let you go and you say something. And

29:49

here Ringo can be seen mouthing the words,

29:52

I'm fucked. and

36:00

Russ Rom says she continues to hold that

36:02

hope. No, they cut it out. They

36:05

say that she hopes that I

36:07

still talk to her. Well,

36:11

you're not gonna know, are you? No, I

36:13

shouldn't. No, that's

36:17

in the past, man. Put

36:21

it this way. This

36:23

story here, you and me, till

36:26

the day I die, fucking doesn't need these legs. It's

36:29

a long time ago, right? Put

36:31

it behind you and... Oh, I know

36:34

they're gonna forget it. No, it's

36:36

fucking... Dude, it's tough to forget.

36:38

You're playing with me now, baby. Yeah.

36:42

Ringel says he'll never forget it and

36:45

that it is too planted in his brain.

36:48

The thing's going 20 minutes long but

36:51

it's taking us fucking three hours to watch it.

36:53

Yeah. Yeah.

37:00

After about seven months of

37:02

direct contact with Ringel and

37:04

with their UC recorded confessions,

37:07

Ontario Provincial Police re-arrest Ringel

37:09

and charge him with first-degree

37:11

murder. The undercover

37:13

operation is viewed as a huge

37:15

success and Ringel is sent to

37:17

provincial jail to await his trial. But

37:21

the outcome of that trial is far

37:23

from certain. In

37:26

2015, when Ringel's second pretrial begins, the

37:31

defense moves to throw out his confession

37:33

again. This time,

37:35

not because of police errors, but

37:38

because of my documentary. Someone

38:02

Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced

38:04

by me, David Rijan. The

38:06

series is also produced by Katie Swires.

38:09

Sound Design by Evan Kelly. Natalia

38:12

Ferguson is our transcriber. Emily Canell

38:14

is our digital producer. Chris Oak

38:17

is our story editor. Our

38:19

executive producer is Cecil Fernandez. Tanya

38:22

Springer is the senior manager, and

38:24

Aarif Nurani is the director of

38:26

CBC Podcasts. If you

38:28

want to help new listeners discover the show,

38:31

please rate and review wherever you listen.

38:34

Find us on Facebook by searching

38:36

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38:38

at CBC Podcasts. You

38:41

can hear next week's episode now by

38:43

searching for the CBC Podcasts channel on

38:45

YouTube. If you're looking for

38:47

more investigations, check out my other series,

38:49

The Next Call. Conducted almost

38:52

exclusively through a series of strategic

38:54

phone calls, each call

38:56

dictates how I will investigate cases

38:58

and follow leads. There are

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