0:00

Bingo Blitz Rules! If

0:03

your bingo has ads in it... That's not a

0:05

bingo! If it doesn't have the coolest

0:07

tournaments, mini-games, and the most breathtaking design...

0:09

Nope, not a bingo! If your

0:11

bingo moment makes you feel so excited that you

0:13

just want to burst in joy and scream out loud...

0:16

BINGO! Sorry, so

0:18

you're playing... Bingo Blitz? Now

0:20

that's a bingo! Go for a world

0:22

of excitement with Bingo Blitz, the number

0:24

one free bingo game. Download Bingo Blitz

0:27

and play for free! Now that's a

0:29

bingo! People

0:58

do look at me with a little bit of, are

1:00

you serious? Also, the

1:03

interesting connection between over-the-counter pain

1:05

relievers and hearing loss. And

1:08

we'll take a close look at your habits,

1:10

where they come from and why you have

1:12

them. Usually habits are a good

1:14

thing. We notice them when they're a bad thing,

1:16

you know, when we have bad habits that we

1:19

want to get rid of. You know, one really

1:21

important thing that neuroscientists know about habits is just

1:23

how fundamentally important they are. And that's why our

1:25

brains are kind of built to make them. All

1:28

this today on Something You Should Know.

1:33

For many businesses, the holiday season can be both

1:35

an exciting and stressful time. With so many

1:37

balls in the air, one thing you definitely

1:39

want to know you can rely on is

1:41

how you're selling your products. And with Shopify,

1:43

you can rest easy knowing it's the home

1:45

of the number one checkout on the planet.

1:48

Nobody does selling better than Shopify. And

1:50

when it comes to successful brands like

1:52

Allo, Allbirds or Skims, an often overlooked

1:54

secret is all the things that go

1:56

on behind the scenes. That makes selling

1:58

and for shoppers. buying, simple. For millions

2:00

of businesses, if you take a peek

2:03

behind that curtain, you'll see that Shopify

2:05

is what makes it all possible. Shop

2:07

Pay boosts conversions up to 50%, so

2:10

that's more happy customers and way more

2:12

sales going. It's

2:15

true all the time, but especially this

2:17

time of year, your commerce platform better

2:19

be ready to sell wherever your customers

2:21

are scrolling or strolling, on the web,

2:23

in your store, in their feed, and

2:25

everywhere in between. Businesses that

2:27

sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade

2:30

your business and get the same checkout we

2:33

use for Realm merch with Shopify. Sign

2:35

up for your $1 per month

2:37

trial period at shopify.com/Realm.

2:39

All lowercase. Go to

2:41

shopify.com slash Realm

2:44

to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com/Realm.

2:58

Something you should know, fascinating

3:00

intel, the world's top experts,

3:02

and practical advice you can

3:04

use in your life today.

3:06

Something you should know with

3:08

Mike Carruthers. Hi,

3:12

welcome to something you should know. As

3:14

you go about your day, you

3:17

probably see at least one or

3:19

two FedEx trucks drive by with

3:21

their iconic logo on the side.

3:23

Did you know

3:25

that the FedEx logo is

3:28

legendary among designers? It

3:30

has won over 40 design awards

3:32

and is considered one of the

3:34

best logos of all time. Nearly

3:38

every design school professor and

3:40

graphic designer with a blog

3:42

has at some point focused

3:44

on the FedEx logo. Why?

3:47

Well, it's because of how the

3:49

logo uses negative space. If

3:52

you look in the lower space between

3:54

the E and the X, you will

3:56

see an arrow, a white arrow. Usually,

3:58

people will see an arrow. people don't

4:00

notice the arrow until it's pointed out

4:02

to them. But once

4:05

you see it, it's almost impossible not

4:07

to see it again every time you

4:09

look at that logo. And

4:11

that is something you should know. When

4:17

I mention the word play, you

4:19

probably think of children. Children

4:21

are really good at playing. But

4:24

play seems to become less important,

4:26

less practical, and less necessary as

4:28

we get older. But

4:31

maybe that's the wrong way to look at it.

4:33

Playing as an adult may be

4:36

absolutely necessary for a lot of

4:38

important reasons. Even just

4:40

incorporating small moments of play can

4:42

make a difference in your life

4:44

in several different ways. And

4:47

here to explain how and why

4:49

is psychotherapist Joanna Fortune, who is

4:51

author of a book called Why

4:54

We Play, How to Find Joy

4:56

and Meaning in Everyday Life. Hi,

4:59

Joanna. Thanks for being here. Great to

5:01

be here, Michael. Thanks for having me. So

5:04

when you look at child development, play

5:06

is a big part of that. You

5:08

hear all the experts talk about the

5:11

importance of play. Kids need to learn

5:13

how to play with each other, that

5:15

play is critical in their

5:18

development. And yet as we

5:20

get older, that whole idea

5:22

of play being important somehow

5:24

falls away that play, well,

5:27

that's for kids. I

5:30

think we do, Michael, understand that play

5:32

has a really important role in the

5:34

lives of children. And I

5:36

also think as adults, we see our

5:38

role within the play narrative as being

5:41

to support children in playing, to play

5:43

with them, and to let them lead

5:45

the way. And all

5:47

of which is true, but equally true is that

5:49

whether you be a parent or not, right across

5:53

the trajectory of our lives, we

5:55

continue to need play. And

5:58

it's about really challenging that. concept of

6:01

play being a box of toys in

6:03

the corner of a room and

6:05

really reaching into that idea that play

6:08

is a state of mind and

6:10

a playful mind is one

6:13

that is flexible and adaptable and

6:16

is therefore amenable to change. And

6:18

so as an adult, what does it mean

6:20

to play? If it isn't a box of

6:23

toys, what is it? Well,

6:25

that's such a great question because I'm

6:27

smiling as I'm answering it because for

6:29

me, I still would play in what

6:31

would be deemed quite a whimsical play

6:34

pattern. I like the

6:36

messy play, the painting, the finger

6:38

painting, the play dough. Others

6:40

amongst us are playing, but we're not calling

6:42

it play and we're not crediting ourselves with

6:45

being as playful as perhaps we are. Some

6:48

of us will have tendencies that are

6:50

more intellectual based play. You know, it

6:52

could be those of us who wouldn't

6:54

let a day go by without

6:56

doing the crossword or wordle or

6:59

sudoku or jigsaws and we really

7:01

love those complicated jigsaw puzzles or

7:03

the 3D versions or we

7:05

might play with Lego, but it's got to be

7:08

one of those big complicated things where we're building

7:10

the Eiffel Tower or something like

7:12

that. Play that really stimulates the

7:14

mind. That is still play. And

7:17

there's others amongst us who might be

7:19

listening going, no, neither of those are

7:21

me, but you might be somebody who

7:23

has very other oriented play. You enjoy

7:26

group activities, team sports, being part of

7:28

a league, being part of a training

7:30

session on a regular basis. And that's

7:33

your type of play. How

7:35

would you say people, grownups, adults

7:37

do with this? Are most of

7:40

us pretty playful and that you're

7:42

really trying to rally

7:44

a small percentage of people or

7:46

are most of us lacking in

7:48

play or what? It's

7:51

so interesting because I put out a

7:53

question, not that this is solid research,

7:55

but I put out a question on

7:57

social media asking people, consider

8:00

yourself playful? And most people said

8:02

yes. And when I asked,

8:04

you know, are you happy with how

8:07

much access that you have to play

8:09

right now in your life, the answer

8:11

was overwhelmingly no. And when I

8:13

further queried what was the greatest block, it

8:16

was a combination of time

8:18

and opportunity, but also self

8:20

consciousness. And I'm asking that question,

8:22

Michael, to people who are already following me

8:24

on social media. That's what I mean. It's not

8:27

proper research. There is a bias there. They're

8:29

already following me for this type of content. And

8:32

while I'm talking with people who see

8:34

themselves as playful, who enjoy playfulness, there's

8:36

still a cohort of people who feel

8:39

they are not getting enough access to

8:41

play. So that was really striking for

8:43

me. So I would think, I really

8:46

do think this, by the way, that

8:49

with very rare exception, we all have

8:51

capacity to be playful. I

8:53

think it's innate in us. I think for

8:55

some of us, our play muscles may be

8:57

a little rusty, a little stiff, a little

8:59

underdeveloped. And there's always a story behind that.

9:01

But I think we all

9:03

have capacity to live more playful lives.

9:05

What that will look and sound and

9:08

feel like for each of us is

9:10

going to be different. But I

9:12

think that we should all stretch ourselves

9:14

a little and say, how much more

9:17

playful could we be? Simply because of

9:19

the benefits. You know, we know that

9:21

this kind of creative, curious mind, and

9:23

you know, it's worth holding that in

9:25

mind that a curious mind is a

9:27

playful mind. So if you're somebody who

9:29

likes to work out solutions to problems,

9:31

who will find yourself looking at a

9:33

situation thinking, I wonder, I wonder if

9:36

I did this and I wonder, could

9:38

we try it that way? You're already

9:40

entering into that playful state of mind.

9:43

So is the word play part

9:45

of the problem? And when you

9:47

hear the word play, you think

9:49

of maybe something that's fairly frivolous,

9:51

unnecessary, childlike, and you

9:53

know, not something grownups do. But

9:56

you also hear, you know, if you were to

9:59

ask people... do you think play

10:01

is important as an adult? I'm sure they would

10:03

say yes. So I

10:05

think yes, most people

10:07

are open to this, but

10:09

there is a healthy dose of reluctance, let

10:11

me put it that way, in terms of

10:14

when I say to people, oh, you know,

10:16

we should all be more playful. Intellectually, I

10:18

get an overwhelming yes, definitely. But then when

10:20

I say so, when's the last time you

10:22

sat at your desk at work and blew

10:24

some bubbles and pop them with your finger?

10:27

People do look at me with a little

10:29

bit of, are you serious? And then yes,

10:32

yes, I'm afraid I am, I'm serious. But

10:34

you know, Michael, if you're starting something new,

10:37

none of us should start at the point

10:39

of greatest resistance, really. So if you heard

10:41

me say blow bubbles and you're like, no,

10:43

I'm out, fear not, that is one form

10:45

of play and there are many others, maybe

10:48

you're going to build up to the bubble

10:50

blowing, but you're not starting there if that's

10:52

where you feel greatest resistance. And so what

10:54

would that ladder look like that you're building

10:57

up to blowing bubbles at your desk, like

10:59

doing things like what, for example? So

11:02

for example, in my own desk drawer, I would

11:04

keep a little play pack so that I have

11:06

this daily play break. So in

11:08

my play pack, I would have something as

11:10

simple and this is something that you could

11:12

start with. Simply take a piece of paper

11:14

and take a pencil into your hands. Start,

11:16

you know, you're going to naturally pick it

11:18

up in whatever your dominant hand is, but

11:20

I'm now going to ask you to swap

11:22

it over to your non-dominant hand. I place

11:24

the pencil on a piece of paper and

11:26

I close my eyes and as I count

11:28

slowly backwards from 15 to

11:31

one, I just move that pencil

11:33

all around the page, making a scribble,

11:35

a mark. When I get to one,

11:37

I open my eyes, swap the pencil

11:39

back to my dominant hand, turn the

11:42

page 180 degrees.

11:44

So the other way around, in other words.

11:46

And then I add features onto it

11:48

just for a couple of minutes and

11:50

out of that chaos, I create order.

11:52

I create something recognizable. That's a play

11:54

break. Nobody's going to see you do

11:56

that. Nobody's going to be like, what

11:58

are you doing? on that

12:00

page. It's not unusual in a workspace

12:03

to pick up a paper and pencil.

12:05

So this is something that you can

12:07

do in a much less self-conscious way.

12:09

But within that play pack in my

12:11

desk, while I would have something like

12:13

that, I also have a small little

12:15

tub of putty because sometimes when I

12:17

need to concentrate on something, it helps

12:19

me to roll, to stretch, to pull,

12:22

to make shapes out of

12:24

play dough or putty. And that's

12:26

something that's very sensory. It helps to pull

12:28

me out of my head and anchor me

12:30

down into the now moments. The only reason

12:32

I mentioned bubbles is because for me, I

12:34

find it a really good and playful way

12:36

to regulate my breath. If I'm feeling under

12:39

pressure, if I can feel myself getting a

12:41

little bit stressed, because in blowing bubbles, you

12:43

have to take a deep breath in and

12:45

you exhale through your mouth. But in doing

12:47

it through bubbles, your focus is on playfulness,

12:50

not just take a breath and calm down because

12:52

in the history of being stressed out, anybody

12:55

telling you to take a breath and calm down

12:57

really doesn't calm you down. Playfulness

12:59

always seems to be easier when

13:01

there are children involved. It kind

13:03

of gives you an excuse to

13:05

do it because, well, the

13:07

kids want to play, so I guess I'll

13:09

play with the kids. And it makes it

13:12

more, I guess it makes it

13:14

more acceptable, at least in people's

13:16

minds. They're not quite as self-conscious about

13:18

what they're doing because they're playing with

13:20

children. Oh, absolutely. Children

13:22

are definitely handy to have around when it

13:24

comes to saying I'm going to get more

13:27

playful. But it's a different type

13:29

of play when we're playing with children, because

13:31

there are two ways as parents of playing

13:33

with children. We either follow their lead, it's

13:35

very child-directed, and in a way that we

13:37

can avoid saying, how was your day? What

13:39

did you do? Where did you go? Who

13:41

did you speak to? What happened? And the

13:43

children look at us and they're like, I

13:45

am done with the Q&A part of my

13:47

day. I'm giving you nothing. So if you

13:49

want to know how their day was, join

13:51

them in their world and language of play

13:53

on the floor. It's all happening there. That's

13:55

how they process, make meaning, or

13:57

maybe within our playing with children, we

13:59

have a little bit of a break.

14:01

of an agenda. We want to do,

14:04

for example, some impulse control. So we're

14:06

going to play games like Mother May

14:08

I, Simon Says, Red Light, Green Light,

14:10

games that's, you know, start, stop, start,

14:12

stop, take your cue from the adult

14:14

in charge that there is a little

14:17

bit of an agenda in there. And

14:19

that is child-focused adult lead play. So

14:21

when we're playing with children, it tends

14:23

to be oriented around the children. Playfulness

14:26

in our adult lives is about

14:28

giving back to ourselves. It's

14:30

really about looking up what sparks joy

14:33

for me. And when is

14:35

the last time I got to do that? And

14:37

what is getting in the way? Could I maybe

14:39

make some space to do something like that? And

14:42

what would be a small change that could

14:44

make a big difference in this regard? We're

14:46

talking about the benefits of play

14:49

in your grown-up adult life. And

14:51

my guest is Joanna Fortune. She

14:53

is a psychotherapist and author of

14:55

the book, Why We Play, how

14:58

to find joy and meaning in everyday life.

15:24

Turkish Airlines, widen your

15:26

world. Thinking

15:54

skills and all that. But

15:56

what about just the psychological benefits,

15:59

the mood? benefits of

16:01

being more playful. Has that

16:03

been studied? Well, I mean,

16:06

playfulness in the life of adults

16:08

in terms of its psychosocial impact

16:10

is understudied, if anything,

16:12

but the studies that are

16:14

there and the research that

16:16

is available does point to

16:18

a myriad of prosocial benefits

16:20

and psychological benefits. Also

16:22

the workplace, you know, Dr. Stuart

16:24

Brown has done significant research about

16:27

playfulness in the workplace and, you

16:29

know, what is coming up there

16:32

is that when we do encourage

16:34

playfulness in our workplace, we see

16:36

more productive team members,

16:39

we see productivity rates increase,

16:41

we see happier employees and

16:43

a happier employee means a

16:45

more productive, healthy work environment.

16:47

So far from being seen

16:49

that you are, you know,

16:51

skiving off or not taking

16:53

your work seriously, building time

16:55

for play breaks even in

16:57

the workplace is

16:59

proven to improve your productivity

17:02

and your flexibility and adaptability, all of

17:04

which are essential skills in

17:06

the workforce. So while it's under researched,

17:08

the research that's there is really encouraging

17:11

that this is not just something nice

17:13

for us to do, it is

17:15

actually essential for us to do

17:17

it. I'm wondering if people

17:20

generally are given permission,

17:22

the opportunity to play, are they

17:26

more likely to gravitate towards

17:28

things they used to play

17:30

as opposed to looking for something new to

17:33

play? Yes, yes and

17:35

no. I mean when I ask that question of

17:37

people as I do within my work all of

17:39

the time, it's, you know, oh I don't play

17:41

anymore, I used to but I don't anymore and

17:43

when we go back and think about what is

17:45

it you used to do and

17:47

why was that fun for you and when is

17:50

the last time, many people

17:52

will report back that actually, you know, I did

17:54

look that up, I did try to do that

17:56

again. It may not feel exactly

17:58

the same as an adult as

18:00

it may have done for you as

18:02

a child. And also maybe our play

18:05

preferences have shifted over the course of

18:07

growing up. And while I used to

18:09

like to play in this whimsical way,

18:12

now that makes me feel a little

18:14

too self-conscious and silly. I'm not there

18:16

anymore. Actually now I like to play

18:18

in a more structured and ordered way.

18:20

So I've joined a team or I've

18:22

joined an art class or I'm in

18:24

a group with like-minded others. And that's

18:26

where I'm getting a similar level of

18:28

pleasure. So our play patterns change

18:31

as we change. And that's that is the

18:33

job, isn't it? The job of our over

18:35

the course of our life is to grow

18:37

and develop. And that's not just the journey

18:40

of childhood, that's the trajectory of life. When

18:43

people don't play, when they say whatever

18:45

they say that you know they don't

18:47

have time or that whatever it is,

18:50

what's really going on there? I mean

18:53

what is it really that they believe

18:55

that they don't have time or they

18:57

believe it's not something adults should do?

19:00

Or is there something else going

19:02

on? I

19:04

mean I think whatever we think it

19:06

is, there's usually something else to that.

19:08

Not that what we're telling ourselves is

19:10

not true, but there might be a

19:12

little sub-context to that as well. Because

19:14

modern life is frenetically

19:16

paced and it's extremely

19:18

busy and demanding. But

19:21

if we're really honest with ourselves,

19:23

could we repurpose some of the

19:26

time that we are maybe devoting

19:28

to social media or scrolling or

19:30

screen time or TV watching?

19:33

Could we maybe repurpose some of that

19:35

time? So actually we do have the

19:37

time, but we need

19:39

to prioritize how we're using our time

19:42

because it's when we forget to play

19:45

for a prolonged extended period of time

19:47

that we see the impact. And that

19:49

impact initially might be the job that

19:52

I once loved has now become something

19:54

I endure rather than enjoy. And

19:56

I've become more rigid and this is the way we do

19:59

it and I will never forget. change the way I do

20:01

it and usually when we get

20:03

to that point in any aspect of our

20:05

lives that we feel a stuckness. You

20:08

know, I just feel stuck, something's a miss.

20:10

That's usually an indicator that we have forgotten

20:12

to play and that's when we

20:14

need to bring the playfulness back in. Is

20:17

it safe to say that play,

20:19

since everyone's play is different, what

20:21

they want to do, that play

20:23

is pretty much anything that you

20:26

enjoy doing that you're not doing?

20:28

In other words, if

20:30

you don't read for pleasure and you get

20:32

a book and read for pleasure, is that

20:34

play or is that not play? I

20:37

mean, I think it could be play depending on

20:39

what you do with it. I mean, I think

20:42

at one point that is can be, for me,

20:44

that's a good example. For me, I would deem

20:46

reading a very relaxing activity.

20:48

It's something I do when actually I'm

20:51

seeking to escape. I want to immerse

20:53

myself, particularly if I'm reading fiction, immerse

20:55

myself into another world. But to maximize

20:57

the play benefit from something like reading,

21:00

I would strongly advocate that when

21:03

you have finished the book, that you consider

21:05

if you were the author of the book,

21:07

how would you change the ending? What

21:10

would you put in? What would you take out?

21:12

What new character would you create? What would their

21:15

name be? What features and traits

21:17

would they have? Who would you

21:19

connect them to in the story and at what

21:21

point of the story and how would that change

21:23

the outcome? Now write that new ending. I think

21:25

when you can get into it at that level,

21:27

now it's playfulness because now

21:30

you're engaged in creative, imaginative,

21:32

projective, narrative play and

21:35

books can be a great doorway into that.

21:38

Do you differentiate between playing

21:42

yourself versus playing with

21:44

others? In other words, I might really

21:46

enjoy going for a bike ride for

21:49

myself, just by myself, because I used

21:51

to ride my bike everywhere when

21:53

I was a kid and I love riding my

21:55

bike, but it isn't necessarily something I need to

21:57

do with somebody else. I get a lot of

21:59

joy. out of just doing

22:01

that? I would probably

22:04

say try to practice a

22:06

blend of both. I definitely

22:08

enjoy solo play, especially

22:10

when I'm in a headspace where I know

22:12

I just need to do something to reset

22:15

my busy brain, then I want to do

22:17

something on my own. And that could be,

22:19

for me, anything from jumping

22:21

in a puddle outside to doing

22:23

something like the drawing technique, or building

22:25

with some Lego blocks on my own,

22:27

just doing something that's very much me

22:30

doing it. And story-based play actually lends

22:32

itself very well to that. But

22:34

I also think that in

22:36

order to invest in our relationships, I

22:39

think that we do need to have

22:41

some openness and connection to other

22:44

directed play or other oriented play, which would

22:46

mean that you can engage with a play

22:48

partner. And that could be, if

22:50

you're in a relationship, an intimate partner, it

22:53

could also be an adult sibling,

22:56

an adult friend. You know,

22:58

it doesn't have to be any one particular

23:00

person. You may have a play

23:03

partner in different parts of your life, but

23:05

that you can do that serve and return,

23:08

and you can play with

23:10

somebody. I think that's about

23:12

strengthening connection, and play ultimately

23:15

is a relational experience. What

23:18

do you think is a good goal

23:20

here to play how much per day

23:22

or how many times? Or like, when

23:25

do the benefits kick in to this,

23:28

or is everybody different? I

23:31

think everybody is different, but at the same time,

23:33

I don't want to just say that. I do

23:35

want to emphasize that I

23:37

believe when you make play a

23:39

daily practice over a

23:41

period of time, even consistently every day

23:43

for 10 to 14 days, you

23:46

will begin to see positive impact. That doesn't

23:48

mean, oh, I got the positive impact and

23:50

now I stop, but that's a sign

23:52

that you keep going. This is working for me. I'm

23:54

going to keep doing this. But now that I'm

23:57

getting comfortable, you know, you want to have fun, but you don't want to. Future

26:00

You faces some big expectations,

26:02

work out more, go to

26:04

bed earlier, and most importantly,

26:06

make smart money decisions. Thankfully,

26:08

today you has Bank of

26:10

America, one place with tools

26:12

and guidance to help balance tasks from

26:14

budgeting to saving, so you can just

26:16

be you with big plans. Do more

26:19

with the bank that asks, what would

26:21

you like the power to do? Explore

26:23

our tips and more at bankofamerica.com/futureyou. Gift

26:30

the remarkable with Marc Jacobs fragrances

26:32

this holiday season. From

26:34

the iconic Daisy and perfect to

26:36

the all new Daisy Wild, Marc

26:38

Jacobs perfume gift sets include everything

26:41

she needs to feel special. From

26:43

her favorite fragrance plus the matching

26:45

travel spray, holiday gifts don't

26:47

get much more perfect than this.

26:50

So if you're looking for a

26:52

gift inspiration these holidays, gift the

26:54

remarkable with Marc Jacobs. Something

27:02

that's kind of interesting when you

27:04

think about it is the fact that we

27:06

do so many things without

27:08

thinking about it. Kind of like

27:10

on autopilot, how you walk

27:12

and talk, brush your teeth, button your

27:14

shirt. You don't have to

27:17

think about it. You don't have to concentrate on

27:19

it as you do it. You just do it.

27:21

It's a habit. Your brain is

27:23

pretty good at forming these habits and making

27:25

them stick. Both good habits

27:27

and bad habits. And it gets even

27:29

more interesting when you dig beneath the

27:32

surface here. Russell Poldrak

27:34

is an expert on the topic. Russell

27:36

is a professor of psychology at

27:39

Stanford University and director of the

27:41

Stanford Center for Reproducible Neuroscience. He's

27:43

also author of a book called,

27:46

Hard to Break. Why our

27:48

brains make habits stick. Hey,

27:51

Russell, welcome. Glad to have you on something

27:53

you should know. Hi, thanks for having me. So

27:56

what's a habit? How do you define it in

27:58

your world? I guess I

28:00

think of a habit as something that

28:03

we do that's kind of triggered by

28:05

the world without us thinking about it.

28:08

So there's lots of things that we do

28:10

every day in our behavior that we don't

28:12

really think about at all. Take driving, you

28:15

get into your car and you have

28:17

to press pedals and move levers and

28:19

all these various things. And

28:21

when you're first learning to drive a car, you have to think

28:23

about all of those different things. Which

28:25

pedal is which, which is the brake, which is the

28:27

gas. But if you've been driving for 20 years, you

28:30

never think about which pedal is doing which thing.

28:32

You just get in the car and drive and

28:34

you're thinking about where do I need to go

28:36

and what's the traffic gonna be like and all

28:38

those sort of things. So

28:41

habits are the things that our

28:44

brains do to basically kind

28:46

of offload us needing

28:48

to think about all these things that kind

28:50

of don't change in the world.

28:52

And usually habits are a

28:54

good thing. We notice them when they're

28:56

a bad thing. We

28:59

have bad habits that we wanna get rid of and we can't.

29:01

But I think one really

29:04

important thing that neuroscientists know

29:06

about habits is just how fundamentally important they are.

29:08

And that's why our brains are kind of built

29:10

to make them. So I

29:12

have always thought of a habit as

29:15

not so much like what pedals to

29:17

push when you're driving because you don't

29:19

feel compelled to do that. I

29:21

don't have to go do that, but smoke or

29:23

has to smoke. You know what I mean? A

29:26

habit is something that you feel compelled to

29:28

do, not just something you

29:30

do automatically. I think

29:33

that's certainly true. Yeah,

29:35

the habits that we talk the most

29:37

about are the ones that

29:39

have this kind of like this

29:42

emotional or what neuroscientists call

29:44

incentive salience. That there's something in the

29:46

world that we really wanna get and

29:48

it's almost like a craving or like

29:50

a powerful drive to do

29:52

the thing. And

29:55

you're right that most of the habits that we

29:57

have in the world, we don't, when I'm going

29:59

to... lock the door as

30:01

I leave the house. I don't feel a craving

30:03

to do that. But

30:05

what we know is that it's actually the

30:07

same machinery in our brains that creates

30:11

the habit of locking your door when you

30:13

leave and the habit of needing

30:16

to go have another cigarette.

30:20

The main difference is that if you think

30:22

about what are the things in the world

30:25

that cause these kinds of habits we're talking

30:27

about, the ones where we feel compelled to

30:29

do something, they're mostly driven

30:31

by these features of the

30:34

modern world that weren't there when we were

30:36

evolving millions of years ago. The

30:39

world has these really powerful stimuli

30:42

that impinge on our brains. And the chemicals

30:44

that we ingest are the big ones. So

30:46

think about why is it that you have

30:48

to have the cigarette? Well, it's because every

30:51

time you have a cigarette, the

30:54

nicotine goes into your bloodstream and it goes and

30:56

affects some neurons in your brain.

30:58

And those ultimately cause

31:00

changes that strengthen that habit.

31:03

It's happening through the same machinery that generates

31:05

all the other habits. It's

31:08

such a much more powerful

31:11

driver of brain activity than anything we ever

31:13

kind of ran. And if you think about

31:16

what were the things people were eating back

31:19

when we were sort of hunter gatherers,

31:21

they weren't as tasty as potato chips

31:24

or candy bars. They were like, you

31:26

might find a little berry or maybe

31:28

you go kill an animal and

31:30

eat some bone marrow or something like that.

31:32

We now have these stimuli that affect our

31:34

brain in just a fundamentally different way than

31:36

the things that we evolved with. And that's

31:39

often what kind of drives these sorts of

31:41

habits. So the habits that

31:43

people talk about when they say, I want

31:45

to exercise. I want to make it a

31:47

habit. And

31:50

then we hear things like, well, in order for

31:52

a habit to take effect, you have to do

31:54

it a certain number of times.

31:57

Talk about that kind of pop culture

31:59

view of it. habits and is it

32:01

accurate and or not? I

32:04

think in general it's true that if you take

32:07

exercising, the way to get yourself to exercise

32:13

regularly in the long term is to make

32:15

it part of a routine. And that's a

32:18

routine is kind of like a habit, where you don't...

32:21

One way to think about it is you don't have to think

32:23

about whether you're going to the gym or you don't want to

32:25

have to think about whether to go to the gym today. You

32:27

want to just have that be what you do on... Every

32:30

Tuesday and Thursday I go to the gym and I don't want to

32:32

have to get up every morning and decide whether I'm going. I just

32:34

know that that's what I do on Tuesday and Thursday. And

32:37

if you have that sort of routine in place, then

32:39

it becomes kind of

32:41

self-sustaining. Whereas if

32:43

you kind of pick and choose every

32:45

morning, well, will I go to the gym today? And if

32:47

I am, will I go at 9 a.m. or 3 p.m.

32:51

That becomes a much harder thing

32:54

to ingrain in part because it's

32:57

open to you having to think

32:59

about it and then it's easier for you to

33:01

decide at each point in time kind of not

33:03

to do it. And the only

33:05

way something becomes a routine is when you do it

33:07

over and over again. Now, there are these kind of

33:09

pop culture ideas about it takes 28 days

33:12

to create a habit or

33:14

whatever the number might be that

33:16

the person will give you. And in

33:18

general, what we know from the little bit of

33:20

research that's been done on this is that it

33:23

really varies across people and it varies

33:25

across habits. But for the same habit, one person

33:27

might need a month to make it kind of

33:29

a part of their routine and one person might

33:31

need a lot longer. And

33:33

I don't think we understand where those

33:36

differences between people come from, but we

33:38

know that they exist. So in a

33:40

quick shorthand way, what's the difference between

33:42

a habit, a routine,

33:44

and an addiction? Yes.

33:47

A routine is often going to be kind

33:50

of a chain of different things like going

33:52

to the gym involves putting on

33:54

your gym clothes and then getting to the

33:56

gym and then signing in at the gym and then going

33:58

and getting on the treadmill right now. So that's a

34:00

there's a whole bunch of things there. We usually think

34:02

of habits as more sort of smaller,

34:04

like atomic pieces of behavior. So like each of

34:07

the little things I have to do, you know,

34:09

putting on my clothes or getting in the car

34:11

or driving to the gym, each of those little

34:13

things we might think of as a habit and

34:15

a routine you can sort of think of as

34:17

like a bunch of habits put together in some

34:19

sense. You know, addictions are I

34:21

think of addictions as kind of like

34:24

the hijacking of the habit system by

34:26

these, you know, unnaturally strong stimuli that

34:28

the modern world gives us. And the

34:30

the overall, the thing that differs about,

34:32

you know, when we think about what

34:34

is an addiction versus a habit, the

34:36

thing that really differs is this kind

34:38

of, you know, as you mentioned earlier,

34:40

this kind of emotional craving or

34:42

this kind of like, you know, incentive to

34:44

to need to do something. A few people

34:47

really feel like they need to go for

34:49

a run or need to go to the

34:51

gym, but not in the same way that,

34:53

you know, somebody who's addicted to to

34:55

a drug feels the need to get that drug.

34:58

And the one other kind of difference, you know,

35:00

what we one of the things that we've learned

35:02

about addiction is that one of

35:04

the reasons that addictions are so hard to break

35:06

is because over time, instead of, you know, sort

35:09

of taking the drug and getting a high out

35:11

of it, the drug just gets

35:13

the person from sort of an emotional

35:15

low back to their normal state. So, you

35:18

know, the brain in general is a is

35:20

a kind of an adaptive machine

35:22

and it'll adapt to whatever the world is doing.

35:25

And so, you know, that's one

35:27

of the big changes is people, you know, people

35:29

who who become addicted when they're in withdrawal, they

35:31

feel this very kind of, you know, like unpleasant,

35:34

you know, negative emotion and the drug just sort

35:36

of takes them back to their normal emotion. So

35:40

this idea of creating a habit that people

35:42

say they're going to go to the gym

35:44

or they're going to whatever, whatever it's going

35:46

to be, is is that

35:49

a worthy goal? I mean, do you

35:51

create habits or is is

35:53

there a different road to get there or what?

35:57

You certainly can create habits and the I

35:59

think. The thing that's most

36:03

important for creating a new

36:05

habit is consistent regular

36:08

experience or practice, if you will. So

36:10

if you decide, for example, that you want

36:12

to, let's

36:15

say that you wanna start flossing every night

36:17

because your dentist told you that you need

36:19

to floss. What you

36:21

need to do is first have a way

36:23

to trigger that behavior. Once

36:26

it becomes a habit, then you'll just, you'll walk

36:28

into the bathroom and start doing it without really

36:30

thinking about it. But when

36:32

you're starting out, it's not gonna just happen

36:34

on its own. And so there's, you can

36:36

imagine sort of building scaffolding to help make

36:38

it happen, right? Put a post-it note on

36:41

the mirror saying, hey, did you remember to floss?

36:43

Or some other way to kind of to

36:46

remind you to do the thing. And

36:48

then once you've done it often enough, then it

36:50

can become a sort

36:52

of a thing that you just do without thinking

36:55

about it. So is it harder

36:57

to break a bad habit or create a

36:59

good one? You know, I

37:02

think it's hard to say in general,

37:04

it's generally hard to do both. Like

37:06

nicotine addiction is incredibly hard to break.

37:08

Of people who try to stop smoking,

37:11

the data show that after a year, only

37:14

about a third of them have succeeded in not

37:16

smoking for a year. And

37:18

so that's incredibly hard. Now, I don't know what

37:20

the numbers are on people who decide they wanna

37:22

start exercising. They're probably not much

37:25

better. But I think

37:27

that the reason that bad habits are

37:29

so hard to break in part has,

37:32

depending on the bad habit, if you're talking about

37:34

things like addictions, has to

37:36

do with the fact that we have, like

37:38

our bodies have these kind of physiological reactions

37:41

that go along with the kind of

37:43

the mental stuff that happens in

37:45

a habit. Whereas we're mostly not having

37:47

cravings to floss our teeth or go

37:49

to the gym or anything like that.

37:52

And we also, we don't get a physiological

37:54

rush out of those things. So in

37:56

general, I think that, there's

37:59

some bad habits that... aren't that hard to break.

38:01

Like, you know, I used to bite my fingernails

38:03

and I, I was able to

38:05

stop doing that, after my wife pointed out what

38:07

I was probably ingesting when I was biting them.

38:10

But it took, you know, it must have taken me

38:12

at least a couple of months, where,

38:14

you know, part of breaking a

38:16

habit is just realizing when the habit is happening and

38:18

what are you know, what are the things that drive

38:20

you to do it and then figuring out strategies to,

38:23

to get around that. And that's, that's a lot

38:25

easier for habits like, you know, fingernail biting than

38:27

it is for, you know, for things

38:30

like, you know, ingesting substances or

38:32

food or things like that. And

38:34

so what do we do with this? So

38:36

knowing what you know, I mean, what's the

38:38

advice regarding people

38:41

wanting to start a

38:43

habit or break a habit, it would almost seem

38:45

like if you want to break a habit, doing

38:49

something in the negative, it's is harder than, you

38:51

know, you ought to figure

38:53

out, like, what do you want to replace it

38:55

with rather than just stop doing something. That

38:58

I think that's, that's definitely one of the

39:00

important ingredients. Because one of the things we

39:02

know is that, you know, like once, once

39:05

a habit gets triggered, it's really hard

39:07

to kind of stop oneself. And so

39:09

a much more effective way to prevent

39:11

oneself from engaging in

39:13

the habit is just avoiding the trigger. So like,

39:15

if you're a, you know, your smoker, you know,

39:17

a well known trigger of smoking is walking into

39:20

a bar, right, you, you smell smoke, you, you

39:22

know, you have a drink, and that that often

39:24

will drive people to smoke. Avoiding the bar is

39:26

a is a pretty good way to do that.

39:29

Now, we, you know, not everybody can avoid the

39:31

triggers of their of their bad habits. And then

39:33

you have to think about, you know, how can

39:35

I not engage in the

39:37

habit, even when the triggers are there. One of

39:40

the one of the techniques that comes

39:42

from psychology, that seems to be useful,

39:44

there's, there's evidence of this working is,

39:47

it's called an implementation intention. And the idea is

39:49

basically that you kind of role play in your

39:52

mind, how you're going to behave, you know, so

39:54

let's say you'll say you don't want to smoke,

39:56

and you have a friend who, who you always

39:59

smoke. with, sort of think through

40:01

some scenarios of how you're going

40:03

to actually behave

40:05

when you see them and they bring out

40:08

the cigarettes and you want to tell them

40:10

that you're not interested in smoking. And

40:12

the more kind of detail the plans, the better.

40:14

On the

40:16

flip side of kind of building new habits, I

40:19

think giving yourself as much scaffolding as you can

40:21

to help keep the behavior going

40:23

in the early days until it becomes kind of

40:25

more of a routine, that's probably one of the

40:27

most effective ways to do it. But, you know,

40:29

one of the, I think one of the other

40:31

things to take away from a lot of this

40:34

research is that, you know, both breaking and creating

40:37

habits is really hard. And,

40:40

you know, neuroscience

40:43

tells us why in a lot of ways.

40:46

And so we shouldn't be so hard

40:48

on ourself when we fail to either,

40:50

you know, change our behavior to break

40:52

a habit or to generate a

40:54

new one and sort of, you know, have a little

40:56

more empathy for ourselves and for other people who we

40:59

see in our lives who are having

41:01

trouble changing their behavior. You

41:03

sometimes hear people say things like, he

41:06

has a habit of interrupting people or

41:09

she has a habit of being very negative. Are

41:11

those habits? Certainly. Yeah. I

41:13

mean, I think that there are, you know, just as we

41:15

can have habits in terms of like, you know, the things

41:18

we eat or drink or, you know,

41:20

put in our bodies, there are sort

41:22

of, you know, social habits and emotional

41:24

habits. One common thing in couples, right,

41:26

is that, you know, people start to

41:28

have habitual responses. They start

41:30

to have, you know, a

41:33

particular negative response to like something

41:36

that their partner does. Right. And

41:38

those can be, those can become

41:40

like really overwhelming to a relationship.

41:42

Right. And similarly, once you've worked with

41:45

colleagues for a number of years, you can come

41:47

to predict how they're going to behave in certain

41:49

situations. And those are very persistent behaviors. So they

41:51

have many of the same hallmarks as habits. Now,

41:54

whether those are much harder things

41:56

to study, part of the reason we know a

41:58

lot about the habits of, you know, you know,

42:00

like ingesting things is because we

42:03

can study them in rats. Well, it

42:05

certainly seems from most people's

42:07

experience that the more you do

42:10

something, the easier it gets

42:12

to keep doing it because

42:14

you keep doing it. It goes

42:16

back to this idea that, you know, in general,

42:18

the brain is always trying to kind of automate

42:20

as much as it can. Right. And if you

42:22

do something a lot, that will tend to get

42:25

automated. So it might be, you know,

42:27

either because of, you know, a particular personality

42:29

quirk or just because of some experiences that

42:31

a person has, they start doing something and

42:34

over time, that thing becomes

42:38

more and more of a, you know, kind of

42:40

a routine that they engage in or, you know,

42:42

like anytime they're in the situation, they behave in

42:44

that particular way. And often that's

42:46

good because we don't have to think about how

42:49

we're behaving in any particular situation, but sometimes it

42:51

can lead to these sorts of, you know, bad

42:53

behaviors. It seems pretty clear that in order to

42:55

change a habit one way or the other,

42:58

that there's got to be some real motivation

43:00

to do it. You can't just think, well,

43:02

you know, that'd be a good idea. Yeah,

43:04

I guess I'll give that a try and

43:07

hope for much success that you somehow

43:09

you've got to pull something out from

43:11

inside and that motivation

43:13

has to push you through. Uh,

43:17

that, that's definitely true. You know, it's like, you

43:19

can't really read about how to play guitar, right?

43:21

And be able to play guitar, you know, based

43:23

on just that you need to, it, it requires

43:26

kind of, you know, personal experience and

43:28

motivation and actually doing the

43:31

thing because the, you know, the systems

43:33

in the brain that develop habits are

43:36

basically the same systems that allow us to kind

43:38

of choose what we're doing for moment to moment.

43:40

We call it the action selection system. It's basically

43:42

determining, am I, you know, am I going to

43:44

go left or right at this particular fork in

43:47

the road? Am I going to, you know, pick

43:49

the candy bar or the piece of fruit at

43:51

the grocery store, am I going to say something

43:53

nice or something mean to this particular person that

43:56

the systems in our brain that let

43:58

us do that are kind of fundamentally.

44:00

in with how habits are built. It

44:03

seems, I think for most of us, for

44:05

me anyway, that if you want to

44:07

change a behavior, if you want to change a habit,

44:10

the best insurance you can have

44:12

is if you're accountable to somebody

44:14

else. If other people know that

44:16

you're trying to do this, you're

44:18

more likely to succeed. That's exactly right.

44:21

And so, you know, one of the

44:23

things that people in the behavior change

44:25

literature talk about is something

44:28

called a commitment device, which is

44:30

basically a way of, you

44:32

know, kind of announcing your particular intention

44:37

and having there be some kind of

44:39

consequence if you

44:41

fail to achieve it. So, for

44:44

example, there's a

44:46

there's a Radiolab episode a while ago

44:48

that talked about this woman named Zelda

44:51

Gamsen, who had been a kind of

44:53

a lifelong activist for racial equality, and

44:56

she really wanted to stop smoking. And

44:58

so basically, she at some

45:00

point said to one of her friends, if

45:02

I ever smoke again, I'm going to give $5,000

45:04

to the Ku Klux Klan. And

45:07

so, you know, that and

45:09

assuming that she was going to

45:11

be held to that bargain, you

45:13

know, that's a very powerful motivator,

45:15

right, for much more powerful than you

45:17

can imagine it would have been if she has said that to

45:19

herself. And there's some work showing

45:21

that, you know, people have set up kind of

45:23

apps to do these kind of like commitment devices.

45:25

And and the

45:28

research shows that if you if you do

45:30

it publicly, it's substantially more powerful than if

45:32

you just kind of do it for yourself.

45:35

Is there anything on the horizon,

45:37

any kind of new technology that

45:40

that would help with this whole

45:42

issue of getting rid of bad

45:44

habits or incorporating good

45:46

habits? You know, I think

45:48

that in the future, we may understand more about exactly

45:50

how to more kind of almost

45:53

surgically get rid of habits. There's

45:55

some really interesting stuff, some findings

45:57

with people, a small number of people who've had

45:59

strong in a particular part of the brain who

46:02

basically wake up after their stroke and are

46:04

no longer interested in smoking. They

46:06

were smokers before their stroke. The stroke causes

46:08

a lesion in this particular part of the brain

46:11

called the insula, and suddenly they no longer

46:13

have the desire to smoke. And

46:15

so the question is whether you can harness, obviously we

46:17

don't want to go damage people's

46:20

brains just to stop them from smoking because that

46:22

could have other impacts as well, but to the

46:24

degree that that tells us something about how we

46:26

might go in and more precisely alter

46:30

the function of the brain for people

46:32

where that sort of thing would be

46:34

worthwhile to help break a really kind

46:36

of a life-damaging habit. I think that

46:38

in the next few decades we're going

46:41

to understand a lot more from neuroscience

46:43

about how to potentially do that. Well

46:45

habits, particularly bad habits, those are the

46:47

things that I think people worry about

46:49

because it seems oftentimes

46:51

to be out of our control and it's

46:54

helpful to understand how this all

46:56

works. I've been speaking

46:58

with Russell Poldrak. He's a professor

47:00

of psychology at Stanford University. The

47:03

name of his book is Hard to

47:05

Break, Why Our Brains Make Habits Stick.

47:08

And as always, there is a link to that

47:10

book in the show notes. Appreciate

47:12

you being here Russell. Thank you. Sure thing. All

47:15

right. Thanks a bunch. If

47:19

you take pain relievers like ibuprofen more

47:22

than twice a week, you

47:24

could end up with hearing loss. Researchers

47:27

say women under the age of 50 are

47:30

at particular risk. Apparently

47:32

the same elements in ibuprofen that

47:34

block the pain may also reduce

47:36

blood flow to the cochlea in

47:39

the inner ear and

47:41

that can affect your hearing. Pain

47:43

relievers containing acetaminophen also posed

47:46

a hearing loss risk, but

47:48

it was slightly less than ibuprofen.

47:51

They also tested aspirin and found

47:53

no risk of hearing loss there.

47:56

And that is something you should know. A

48:00

rating and review is one of the best

48:02

ways to support this podcast. It lets other

48:04

people know how much you like it. And

48:08

it has something to do with the algorithms,

48:11

but it does help having ratings and reviews. And we

48:13

have a lot of them, but we could use yours

48:15

as well. I'm Mike Herbrothers. Thanks

48:18

for listening today to Something You Should Know.

48:21

Buffet brawlers. Glory holes gone

48:23

wrong. Cannibalistic castration

48:25

cabins. Public poopers. These

48:28

are just a few of the crazy topics

48:30

you'll hear covered on, Excuse me? That's

48:33

illegal. The pettiest podcast

48:35

around. Whether you need a

48:37

break from all that murdery true crime stuff,

48:39

or just enjoy hearing hilarious stories told in

48:42

a unique way, I got what you need.

48:45

I'm Leroy Luna, your fearless host

48:47

slash chauffeur. So come hop

48:49

in my minivan and let's go for a ride.

48:52

I promise you probably won't be

48:54

disappointed. Excuse me? That's

48:56

illegal. Is available on

48:58

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, basically everywhere

49:00

you consume podcasts. With new

49:03

episodes dropping on the 10th, 20th, and 30th of the month,

49:05

baby. There

49:09

is a fascinating and unique podcast I'd

49:11

like you to check out, as I

49:13

have. It's called Only One in the

49:15

Room. A few years back,

49:17

Laura Cathcart-Robbins attended a writer's retreat

49:19

where out of 600 attendees, she

49:23

was the only black one. So

49:25

later, she wrote about her experience and

49:27

the article went viral because people understand

49:29

what it feels like to be the

49:31

only one in the room. Only

49:33

One in the Room is for anyone who has

49:36

ever felt alone in a room full of people.

49:38

I bet you've had that feeling. Listen

49:41

and you'll hear guests like Hilary Phelps,

49:43

sister of Olympian Michael Phelps, sharing her

49:45

story of her secret addiction. Former

49:48

Fox News reporter, Christine O'Donnell, who was

49:50

fired after one of her social media

49:52

posts was taken out of context. Only

49:56

One in the Room was named a

49:58

top podcast by Reader's Digest, the manual.

50:00

and Bustle magazines. Every

50:02

week, Laura and her co-host, Scott Slaughter,

50:04

invites you to join them for an

50:07

hour and lose yourself in someone's only

50:09

one story. Check out Only

50:11

One in the Room, wherever you get

50:13

your podcasts.