0:00

Spring Savings are in the air and

0:02

at Ross, where they have savings on

0:04

all the brands you love. From the

0:06

latest fashion to outdoor decor and even

0:08

pet supplies, savings are in every aisle. Go

0:10

to Ross and save 20 to 60% off

0:13

other retailers prices on your favorite spring fines.

0:15

spring Today, on something you

0:17

should know, is beginners luck a

0:19

real thing or just a flooky

0:21

occurrence? Then quitting. We've been taught

0:24

to persevere, never quit, but sometimes

0:26

quitting is the right choice. I

0:28

believe that everything we've always believed

0:30

about quitting is wrong. And all

0:32

the good things we've believed about

0:35

grit and perseverance is also

0:37

wrong. That quitting and modern

0:39

neuroscience bears me out on this.

0:41

Quitting is when we stop one direction

0:43

and go in another. Then some

0:46

simple ways to improve your love

0:48

life that happen outside the bedroom.

0:50

And why are humans so attracted

0:52

to water? Beaches, lakes, river streams.

0:54

We like to be near water.

0:56

Water helps us to relax. It

0:58

helps us to be more creative.

1:00

It helps to connect us to

1:02

each other. It connects us to

1:05

ourselves. And it is the basis

1:07

of all life. We've all experienced

1:09

it, but it's nice to tag

1:11

it. All this today on something

1:13

you should know. Here

1:16

is a question that has

1:18

stumped people for decades, and

1:20

maybe stumping you right now, what

1:22

to get mom for Mother's Day.

1:24

Flowers, chocolate, new dish towels. I'm

1:27

going to strongly suggest a

1:29

much better gift. An aura frame.

1:31

aura is the Wi-Fi-connected

1:33

digital picture frame that

1:36

showcases your photos and videos.

1:38

You can add unlimited photos

1:40

right from your smartphone using

1:42

the app. We have two of

1:44

them in our house. It's so much

1:47

fun to just see those pictures pop

1:49

up and relive those memories. Not only

1:51

will mom be grateful that you

1:53

didn't get her another candle or

1:55

sweater, she's actually going to love

1:58

this gift. Ora frames are... one

2:00

of Oprah's favorite things. Plus they

2:02

have 20,000 five-star customer

2:05

reviews. So instead of all

2:07

your photos being stored on a

2:09

hard drive where nobody sees them,

2:11

now mom can have them displayed

2:13

all the time. You know, my mom

2:15

passed away years ago, but we will

2:17

be seeing pictures of her over Mother's

2:20

Day weekend popping up on our aura

2:22

frames. So come on, get your

2:24

mom and aura frame. aura has a

2:26

great deal for Mother's Day. For a

2:29

limited time, listeners can save

2:31

on the perfect gift by

2:33

visiting aura frames.com to get

2:36

$35 off plus free

2:38

shipping on their best-selling

2:40

Carvermat frame. That's A-U-R-A

2:42

frames.com, aura frames, promo

2:44

code something. Support this

2:47

show by mentioning us at

2:49

checkout. Terms and conditions apply,

2:51

and that link is also

2:53

in the show notes. Something you

2:55

should know, fascinating Intel, the

2:57

world's top experts, and practical

2:59

advice you can use in

3:02

your life, today. Something you

3:04

should know, with Mike Carothers.

3:06

Hi, and welcome to another

3:08

episode of Something You Should

3:10

Know. Something I've always wondered

3:12

about, and perhaps you have

3:14

too, is beginners luck. Maybe

3:16

you've experienced it or witnessed

3:18

it, or witnessed it. Is

3:20

beginners like a real thing,

3:23

I wonder? Well, apparently it

3:25

is, but actually luck doesn't

3:27

have a lot to do with it.

3:29

What we chalk up to beginner's luck

3:32

actually has two parts to

3:34

it. First of all, beginners or

3:36

novices often fail. Don't perform

3:38

well on a first attempt.

3:40

That's no surprise. So when a

3:43

beginner does get lucky, every once

3:45

in a while, surprise. We notice

3:47

it. and we respond to a

3:49

surprise more than we do to

3:51

the predictable. So we tend to

3:54

think that it happens more often

3:56

than it does. It doesn't really

3:58

happen that often. The important

4:00

aspect to beginners

4:02

luck is pressure. People who are

4:05

experts or who are at the

4:07

top of their game are expected

4:10

to succeed. They feel the pressure

4:12

and performing under pressure is always

4:14

more of a challenge. Beginners

4:16

on the other hand usually

4:18

don't care how they perform

4:21

on a first attempt. So the

4:23

pressure is off. A novice is

4:25

more likely to take a risk that

4:27

just might pay off. And every once

4:29

in a while, it does. And

4:32

that is something you should

4:34

know. There is something about

4:36

quitting. Walking away from

4:38

something. Almost anything. Quitting

4:40

is for losers. At

4:42

least that's the way

4:44

many of us think.

4:46

Winters never quit. Quitters

4:48

never win. You don't quit.

4:51

You finish what you

4:53

start. Quitting is bad.

4:55

Perseverance is good. Well, maybe

4:57

we should reexamine that assumption that

5:00

quitting is such a bad thing.

5:02

Maybe sometimes quitting is the

5:04

best strategy. That's what Julia

5:06

Keller is here to discuss.

5:08

Julia is a Pulitzer Prize-winning

5:10

journalist, novelist, and playwright, and

5:12

she is author of a

5:14

book called Quitting, a life

5:17

strategy. Hi Julia, welcome to Something

5:19

You Should Know. Oh, hi there. Mike, so happy

5:21

to be here. So go ahead and make

5:23

your case for quitting because as I

5:25

said, you know, most people look at

5:27

quitting is something you don't do, that that's

5:30

not a good thing. So why is

5:32

it and when is it a good

5:34

thing? I believe deep in my soul that

5:36

everything we've always believed about quitting

5:38

is wrong. And all the good

5:40

things we've believed about grit and

5:42

perseverance is also wrong. That in

5:45

effect we've been sold a bill

5:47

of goods, that quitting and

5:49

modern neuroscience bears me out

5:51

on this, is... I like to think of it

5:53

as aerobics for your brain. Quitting is

5:55

when we stop one direction and go

5:57

in another. It's a willingness to be

5:59

flexible. and there's a cognitive flexibility involved. And

6:01

so people will say to me, well

6:03

if you're right and grit and perseverance aren't

6:06

all they're cracked up to be and quitting can

6:08

be a good thing, then how come for all

6:10

these hundreds of years we've been told the opposite?

6:12

You know, the word, where do you get off?

6:14

Why are you so smart? And what I usually

6:16

reply is, we can trace the history of the

6:18

grit and perseverance idea. I often say that

6:21

grit is a con. It's been sold

6:23

to us like cars or cornflakes or

6:25

smartphones. And there's a reason why we're

6:27

told that everything is in our own

6:29

hands and it's all up to us.

6:31

Because it isn't. And once we accept

6:33

that and we realize that we often

6:36

have to change course because bad

6:38

things just happen to us, unexpected

6:40

things happen to us. We become

6:42

much freer, less judgmental of

6:44

other people. and less judgmental of ourselves

6:46

certainly and we're able to live

6:48

life a little freer a little

6:50

happier. So I understand the changing course

6:52

that sometimes life circumstances dictate that

6:54

you have to change course and

6:57

in order to change course you

6:59

may have to quit something in

7:01

order to move to something else.

7:03

Okay I get that but but

7:05

there's another kind of quitting that's

7:07

not that that's the I just

7:09

don't want to do this anymore.

7:11

kind of quitting which feels more like just

7:13

you know the easy way the chicken way

7:15

out. Well the distinction you're making there

7:17

is very important. In fact that's that's one

7:20

of the things that I had to really

7:22

look at is say you're a parent and

7:24

your kid comes to you and says yeah

7:26

I want to quit the basketball team I

7:28

just don't want to do it and you're

7:30

a parent you realize it well I think

7:32

probably this kid of mine would rather sit

7:35

home watching YouTube videos. That kind of quitting

7:37

right is not what I mean. And a

7:39

lot of the parents that I interviewed in

7:41

the course of just kind of collecting my

7:43

thoughts about why I think quitting can be

7:45

a positive would say that that then initiated

7:47

another conversation. They say, okay, why do you want

7:50

to quit? And if it is, as you mentioned,

7:52

a moment ago, just like, oh, I'm just tired

7:54

of it. Come on, I'd rather sit at home,

7:56

you know, box of cheetos, who wouldn't? That's

7:58

not what I mean. What I mean. is a what

8:00

I call precision quitting, strategic quitting. And

8:03

that can be whether you're 14 years

8:05

old and you want to quit the

8:07

soccer team or whether you're 44 and

8:09

you're very stale in your job and

8:11

you think you're looking for another challenge.

8:14

It's really along the same thing. And

8:16

at each time it requires our brain

8:18

to do something quite specific and quite

8:20

important. And that's the neuroscience of this

8:23

I think is maybe where the distinction

8:25

lies as well. that we know that

8:27

animals in the wild will quit if

8:29

a certain path is not getting them where

8:31

they want to go. And yet we don't.

8:34

Often we stick too long with something. And

8:36

it's not a matter of just lassitude or

8:38

laziness. It's a matter, I think, of fear.

8:40

I know there's certain things that I haven't

8:42

quit that I know I should have, and

8:44

I'd like to say, well, because I just

8:46

didn't want to do it. Often it's fear.

8:48

To which I can imagine people

8:51

listening to this saying yes, but

8:53

there I can think of and

8:55

I include myself in this list

8:58

I have Persevered and

9:00

stuck it out Through thing with

9:02

things that probably I

9:04

really didn't want to and I'm

9:06

so glad I did There is some

9:08

of that, but I will tell you

9:10

that in probably 150, 200 interviews, many,

9:12

many, many interviews that I did, the

9:14

vast, fast, vast majority of people, when

9:17

I asked them to sort of tell

9:19

me they're quitting history and everybody has

9:21

a quitting story. That's something I should

9:23

have mentioned at the outset, everybody has

9:25

a quitting story. That's something I should

9:27

have mentioned at the outset, everybody has

9:29

a quitting story. Everybody, much, much, much

9:31

more likely to regret the things that

9:34

they didn't quit. Obviously, there are some

9:36

of the latter. There are times when

9:38

we think, oh, I should have stayed with that

9:40

job, wasn't so bad, or I wish I'd stayed

9:42

a little longer in that relationship, maybe given another

9:44

try. But the vast majority of people, it's

9:47

completely the opposite. I wish I hadn't

9:49

stayed so long. I was afraid, and

9:51

that's why I stayed. And again, grit

9:53

and resilience sometimes work, okay, they're fine.

9:55

It's not always true. There's no one

9:57

formula that's going to work for everybody

9:59

for everybody. no one life strategy. But

10:01

my argument is that we need

10:03

to include quitting and giving up

10:05

and all these other words that

10:07

have such a pejorative ring to them

10:10

and sound so negative. We need

10:12

to put those into the toolbox. They

10:14

need to be looked upon not

10:16

as a moral failing and not as

10:18

the absolute last refuge of the

10:20

loser, but as another tool, another way

10:23

to go about this very complicated

10:25

thing called life. Well

10:27

by its nature quitting is fairly final

10:29

and so often it might be better

10:31

it would seem to stick it out

10:33

a little longer because once you're quit

10:35

you quit you can't quit a job

10:37

and then go two weeks later oh

10:39

boy you know I made a mistake

10:41

I'm coming back because you're not coming

10:43

back you quit so well but you

10:46

can I would argue I have a

10:48

thing I call the quasi quit now

10:50

this is not the same as quiet

10:52

quitting which came out about a year

10:54

ago and to me sounds ridiculous it's

10:56

just thievery means not working very hard

10:58

at your job what I call the

11:00

quasi quit it suggests that quitting doesn't

11:02

have to be an an on-off switch

11:04

I don't think it has to be

11:06

a final thing. I think of it

11:09

as more of a REostat dial. You

11:11

can quit in increments. You can quit

11:13

gradually. You can dial it up and

11:15

dial it down. You can change the

11:17

way you're doing something instead of the

11:19

thing that you're doing. And I use

11:21

a lot of athletes as an example.

11:23

I mentioned Tiger Woods, I think, is

11:25

a great example, who is a great

11:27

champion, a wonderful champion. But time has

11:30

passed. He's gone through some grievous physical

11:32

injuries and some tumultuous emotional times. He

11:34

has had to change what he thinks

11:36

of as victory. He's not a quitter

11:38

by any means. But in another sense,

11:40

he is a quitter because he's had

11:42

to quit a way of looking at

11:44

the game of golf and looking at

11:46

only a first place finish as the

11:48

only acceptable outcome and to say, and

11:51

to say, you know what. I showed

11:53

up, I competed, I did my best.

11:55

So quitting I would argue is not

11:57

final. In fact, it's the opposite of

11:59

final. You can quit a thousand times

12:01

and make minor changes or one big

12:03

major change. But again, it needs to

12:05

always be in that toolbox and to

12:07

always consider it and to realize if

12:09

you quit you're not a loser you're

12:12

not a bum you're not a washout

12:14

you're not a terrible person you're a

12:16

human being and you're making another decision

12:18

well doesn't it depend on why you're

12:20

quitting well I suppose that's between you

12:22

and your you're your friends and your

12:24

therapist and whoever. I mean, but again,

12:26

I think when we put this moral

12:28

judgment upon it is what I'm, is

12:30

what I'm, I guess, most upset about

12:33

when I looked at quitting. You know,

12:35

I always talk about when I was,

12:37

I was in grad school, 19 years

12:39

old, I'd graduated from college early, I

12:41

was, it was terrible. I had been

12:43

about a month in grad school and

12:45

it was very clear to me, this

12:47

was terrible, this was awful. I had

12:49

to get out of there. I mean,

12:51

it clutched at my guts, you know,

12:54

the idea of being a quitter. Because,

12:56

you know, I've been, I love sports

12:58

and we all know what we call

13:00

somebody who leaves before the game is

13:02

over. We call him a quitter and

13:04

it's a taunt. It's a mean jeer.

13:06

But this is when I first began

13:08

to question this idea of quitting as

13:10

being so bad. When your body in

13:12

your mind are telling you you need

13:14

to be somewhere else, why do we

13:17

resist? Quitting is something that serves people

13:19

in power. It serves the people who

13:21

have control in this world. Because if

13:23

you look at quitting as a negative,

13:25

you suggest that all power is in

13:27

your own hands, and that the people

13:29

who have been successful in life have

13:31

gotten there because they didn't quit. They

13:33

were noble. They were intrepid. They were

13:35

dedicated. They stayed the course. Often, they

13:38

were just lucky. We're talking about quitting

13:40

and my guest is Julia Keller. She

13:42

is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and

13:44

author of the book Quitting, A Life

13:46

Strategy. You chose to hit play on

13:48

this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves

13:50

to help people make smart choices. That's

13:53

why they offer a tool called Auto

13:55

Quote Explorer that allows you to compare

13:57

your progressive car. quote, with rates from

13:59

other companies. So you save time on

14:02

the research and can enjoy savings when

14:04

you choose the best rate for you.

14:06

Give it a try after this episode

14:09

at progressive.com, progressive casualty insurance company and

14:11

affiliates, not available in all states or

14:13

situations. Prices vary based on how you

14:15

buy. I am a food lover. I

14:18

love to cook. I've collected probably a

14:20

hundred cook books over the years. Good

14:22

food is important to me. But some

14:24

days I can't cook, or I just

14:27

don't want to cook. But I still

14:29

want to eat well, which is why

14:31

I love and want to tell you

14:33

about factor meals. Factor meals are freshly

14:36

prepared meals delivered to your door. And

14:38

to be clear, these are not frozen

14:40

meals, this is not a kid of

14:43

ingredients that you have to make. These

14:45

meals are complete restaurant quality meals. You

14:47

simply heat them up for two minutes.

14:49

Eating well has never been this easy.

14:52

They have 45 weekly menu options. You

14:54

can pick gourmet meals that fit your

14:56

goals. Choose from calorie smart, protein plus,

14:58

keto, vegetarian, and more. Meals like ginger

15:01

teriyaki salmon, cheesy chicken and broccoli, casserole,

15:03

garlic, rosemary, pork chops. What we do

15:05

at our house is we serve the

15:08

food on nice plates, maybe with a

15:10

glass of wine, and I swear you

15:12

would think you're eating at a fine

15:14

restaurant. The food is really that good.

15:17

Factor also offers satisfying breakfast, lunches, and

15:19

guilt-free snacks and desserts. So look, here's

15:21

an offer that makes this easy to

15:23

give it a try. Get started at

15:26

factormeals.com/something 50 off. And use code something

15:28

50 off to get 50 off plus

15:30

free shipping on your first box. That's

15:33

code something 50 off at factormeals.com/something 50

15:35

off. for 50% off plus free shipping.

15:37

And I'll put that promo code in

15:39

the show notes. So Julia. As I

15:42

listen to you talk, it almost seems

15:44

like quitting is the wrong word. Because

15:46

as you describe Tiger Woods, I mean

15:48

I would never describe him as a

15:51

quitter, but you say he's a quitter,

15:53

but I wouldn't. I would never use

15:55

that word. He adapted from his life

15:57

circumstance how he plays the game, but...

16:00

Quitting wouldn't be one of the words

16:02

I'd used to describe him. It's like

16:04

it's the wrong word for what you're

16:07

talking about almost. Well, but ask yourself,

16:09

Mike, why does a word quitting make

16:11

you feel that? Why do you think

16:13

I would never call Tiger Woods a

16:16

quitter? I know what you mean. It's

16:18

a hard, it was a hard sentence

16:20

to write when I said Tiger Woods

16:22

is a quitter. But then I go

16:25

on to explain, of course, that we

16:27

think of quitting in a pejorative way

16:29

in a pejorative way. And a pejorative

16:32

way. And we've been a pejorative way.

16:34

And we've been trained to do that.

16:36

The word self-help was coined in the

16:38

middle of the 19th century by a

16:41

man named Samuel Smiles who wrote a

16:43

book called Self-Health with illustrations of character

16:45

and conduct. And that's when this idea

16:47

first got going, that quitting is bad,

16:50

changing course is bad, changing how you

16:52

do something is bad. You have to

16:54

stick with something that you begin and

16:56

never quit and never give up, or

16:59

you're a bad person. There was definitely

17:01

a moral... dimension attached to it. And

17:03

again, I think that doesn't serve us

17:06

as human beings very well because we

17:08

sometimes we need to quit things. Relationships

17:10

don't work out. But women particularly have

17:12

been not served well by this idea

17:15

of quitting as being a negative. They're

17:17

told, oh, come on, just stick with

17:19

it. Stick with a little longer in

17:21

terms of relationships, jobs. Often quitting is

17:24

the right thing to do and we

17:26

don't do it. because we're afraid of

17:28

that term quitter, just as you were

17:31

saying, it kind of made you, you

17:33

know, shudder a little bit and recoil

17:35

to think of Tiger Woods, a great

17:37

champion like a Tiger Woods being a

17:40

quitter. The other example I give is

17:42

Simone Biles when she withdrew from the

17:44

finals of the Tokyo Olympics. Oh, the

17:46

terrible, terrible name she was called and

17:49

the terrible negativity was thrown at her.

17:51

It was awful. Now, she quit because

17:53

she wanted to continue to fight another

17:56

day. She knew it wasn't in the

17:58

right frame of mine. position to do

18:00

this incredibly perilous job that she needs

18:02

to do as an elite gymnast. Now

18:05

she's a magnificent champion just as Tiger

18:07

Woods is and I would maintain that

18:09

these great champions understand when to quit

18:11

and when to give up and I

18:14

take your point that those are that

18:16

those are maybe kind of harsh sounding

18:18

words because they're words that we have

18:20

attached all of this negativity too and

18:23

it makes it very hard to change

18:25

course but suppose we sucked all of

18:27

quitting as a positive. But sometimes your

18:30

quitting affects other people. If you're a

18:32

member of a team and you quit

18:34

the team and the team suffers, well

18:36

now a lot of people are taking

18:39

it on the chin because you quit.

18:41

That's true and sports is a great

18:43

example. I mean I think sports examples

18:45

are terrific. I think sports is one

18:48

of the some of the great metaphors

18:50

for life. The example I often use

18:52

is Scotty Pippen who is is persistently

18:55

asked about his 1992 playoff game when

18:57

he quit when he wouldn't go back

18:59

on the court after a time out

19:01

right at the end of the game

19:04

because he was mad. The coach had

19:06

decided to let another player take the

19:08

final shot and Scotty Pippin was mad

19:10

and so he sulked and he quit.

19:13

He quit on his team. That has

19:15

dogged him and followed him for low

19:17

these many years. As great a champion

19:19

as he is, you know, Michael Jordan's

19:22

great great teammate, he still carries that

19:24

stigma of being a quitter. But sometimes

19:26

we're better off not being in there

19:29

if we're not going to be able

19:31

to perform at a high level. In

19:33

terms of the Scotty Pippin example, I'd

19:35

say, you know, maybe he understood that

19:38

he just really wasn't, you know, now

19:40

because he was so upset, and you

19:42

can argue that maybe it wasn't the

19:44

most mature thing to be that upset.

19:47

But again, that's between him and his

19:49

coaches and his, you know, his, members

19:51

of his team, not for me to

19:54

judge. I just think that we're so

19:56

quick to look at quitting. as a

19:58

negative and did not give people the

20:00

option, the kind of elbow room, the

20:03

psychological and spiritual elbow room to make

20:05

another decision and we end up being

20:07

really really stuck. Because your book is

20:09

quitting a strategy and to me, you

20:12

know, a strategy is like a plan

20:14

and I don't think anybody goes into

20:16

anything with the strategy, the plan to

20:18

quit. Why would you do it if

20:21

you're planning to quit? Oh, no, no,

20:23

no. They do all the time. I

20:25

just saw an interview the other day,

20:28

Ryan Reynolds, being interviewed by David Letterman

20:30

on that Letterman show that's on Netflix

20:32

now. And he interviews celebrities for not

20:34

very long, but I find them very

20:37

revelatory. And he says to Ryan Reynolds,

20:39

well, when you came to Hollywood, I

20:41

guess you didn't have a plan B,

20:43

you knew you were going to make

20:46

it. And Ryan Reynolds looks at him

20:48

and laughs and says, didn't have a

20:50

plan B. I had a plan B,

20:53

C, C, C, C, C, C, C,

20:55

C, C, C, C, C, C, C,

20:57

C, C, C, C, C, C, C,

20:59

C, C, C. But that's one of

21:02

the points I try to make is

21:04

that no one's saying it's going to

21:06

work out. I mean, there was nothing

21:08

written on any stone somewhere, you know,

21:11

that with a sword thrust in it

21:13

that said, Ryan Reynolds is going to

21:15

be a successful movie star. No one

21:18

knew that. All he could do was

21:20

try. But he was ready on a

21:22

moment's notice to try something else. That's

21:24

the point he makes to Letterman. He

21:27

said, oh, no, no. I had all

21:29

kinds of contingency. I guess, no I

21:31

understand your point, but it just seems

21:33

that every case is individual. I mean,

21:36

I can speak on behalf of almost

21:38

every podcaster in the world. I, in

21:40

the early days of this podcast before

21:42

it became as successful as it did,

21:45

thought about quitting every day because it's

21:47

just, nobody was listening, wasn't going anywhere,

21:49

it was really hard to do, but

21:52

I didn't quit. I could have quit,

21:54

a lot of people have quit. but

21:56

I didn't and I stuck it out

21:58

and I'm very glad I did. Well,

22:01

let me emphasize again that this is

22:03

very individual. You did stick with this,

22:05

but I dare say there have to

22:07

have been some other things in your

22:10

life, perhaps careers, that you thought would

22:12

be. right one for you. You know,

22:14

you're a talented man, you could have

22:17

done many different things. There are times

22:19

when you thought you were going to

22:21

do something, and you had to change

22:23

in order to get to the point

22:26

where you could become the host of

22:28

a very successful podcast. That's the point.

22:30

I mean, you don't know what all

22:32

you could do is listen to yourself.

22:35

And your mind and heart and soul

22:37

said to you, nope, okay, this may

22:39

be rough in the beginning, you, that's...

22:41

your decision. And that's really my only

22:44

point, is that it has to be

22:46

your decision. So there is a saying,

22:48

you know, I don't have the luxury

22:51

of quitting and I can imagine people

22:53

listening to this saying, well, great, geez,

22:55

I'd love to quit my job, but

22:57

I have a mortgage to pay and

23:00

I have, you know, bills to pay

23:02

and my kids are in school and

23:04

they've got dental work. And so quitting

23:06

sounds great, but a lot of people,

23:09

for a lot of people, it's not

23:11

a practical thing to do. Well, again,

23:13

I disagree and I hope that my

23:16

book is a reputation of that. I

23:18

think it's the most practical thing you

23:20

can do is to consider quitting. And

23:22

people often do use their families as

23:25

excuses, and I say that as somebody

23:27

who has done that in the past

23:29

too. Well, I have these obligations, but

23:31

your obligation is to yourself, and something

23:34

will be there. I mean, this is

23:36

a wide and a varied world, and

23:38

it's filled with ongoing and endless opportunities.

23:40

for us to make our way in

23:43

that world. And if a situation isn't

23:45

right from a relationship to a job

23:47

or a religious belief, I mean I

23:50

have a lot of examples too that

23:52

I deal with where people have changed

23:54

political parties or religious beliefs, that they

23:56

they have to feel we have the

23:59

freedom to go in another direction, to

24:01

stop and change. Again, it's just too

24:03

grim otherwise. And again, I just never

24:05

liked it when I hear people say,

24:08

well, I would do this or that,

24:10

except for my family. And it's like,

24:12

no, no, your family is the reason

24:15

that you do make another decision. you

24:17

do have those responsibilities and you know

24:19

that you being a whole person you

24:21

know on your way to a new

24:24

way of living and a brighter frame

24:26

of mind that is your responsibility. So

24:28

I mean I kind of see it

24:30

from the other way around and I

24:33

do think of it as a very

24:35

practical strategy. I remember my dad telling

24:37

me early on in my career that

24:40

you know if you ever want to

24:42

quit a job it's always better to

24:44

line something else first because you look

24:46

more attractive if you are employed than

24:49

if you're unemployed so quit all you

24:51

want but but get something lined up

24:53

first there is that you can you

24:55

can do that if you wish but

24:58

again I think that's that's an individual

25:00

decision and by no means I'm telling

25:02

anybody what to do I would never

25:04

say that one thing is going to

25:07

work out over all the others again

25:09

this is just a plea a kind

25:11

of an earnest innocent plea to say

25:14

It's okay. If you're thinking of quitting

25:16

something and you're hearing people say, don't

25:18

do it. And you're like, like me

25:20

and graduate school. That's terrible night when

25:23

I decided I just couldn't make it

25:25

another moment. I mean, I was 19

25:27

years old and I truly was at

25:29

a, was that a, was that a,

25:32

was that a, was that a, a

25:34

terrible point, a kind of psychological Waterloo.

25:36

I mean, I don't know what would

25:39

have happened to me if I'd stay.

25:41

I had to get out of that

25:43

way anymore. Well, as you say, it's

25:45

very individual, whether you decide to quit

25:48

or whether you decide to persevere, but

25:50

are there any numbers in the research

25:52

about, you know, is quitting a better

25:54

strategy? Just anything other than these are

25:57

anecdotal stories and you quit and it

25:59

worked out for you? Very, very, very

26:01

few people ever deeply regretted, something that

26:03

they... gave up on or quit and

26:06

looked back on and said, oh, if

26:08

I just hadn't done that, far, far

26:10

more often was, I so wish I'd

26:13

quit earlier. It was the wrong thing

26:15

to do. I wasted, you know, 10

26:17

years of my life. because I was

26:19

afraid of being involved in that in

26:22

that particular thing, whatever it might have

26:24

been, a job or a person or

26:26

a political party or so I do

26:28

take your point but there's something you

26:31

said early on in your question when

26:33

you said of how people feel about

26:35

it and that's ultimately what I'm getting

26:38

at. It's how you feel about it

26:40

and it doesn't matter what I think

26:42

or you think or any of these

26:44

fancy neuroscientists who were kind enough to

26:47

explain their work to me at great

26:49

length. It doesn't matter what any of

26:51

them think or what anybody thinks really.

26:53

It's how you feel and only you

26:56

know. At the end of the day,

26:58

it's that mind and heart and soul

27:00

that I speak of because truly I

27:03

think our work and the way we

27:05

spend our time is not just a

27:07

matter of getting money or keeping a

27:09

roof over our heads or even taking

27:12

care of our families. It's sort of

27:14

our obligation as, you know, it's a

27:16

sole deep obligation. It's what we do,

27:18

how we spend our time. Do we

27:21

feel as if we have used our

27:23

gifts and talents to their fullest ability?

27:25

And if you're in the wrong place

27:27

and you're stuck in the wrong place,

27:30

then the answer would be no. But

27:32

if you're able to change and able

27:34

to quit things that aren't working and

27:37

go to something that is working better

27:39

than the answer would be yes. Well,

27:41

I have to admit, I haven't really

27:43

thought all that much about this topic,

27:46

Quitting is never a great idea that

27:48

perseverance and grit are always the better

27:50

option, but maybe not. I've been speaking

27:52

with Julia Keller. She is a Pulitzer

27:55

Prize-winning journalist, novelist, and author of the

27:57

book, Quitting, a life strategy. And you'll

27:59

find a link to her book at

28:02

Amazon in the show notes. Thank you,

28:04

Julia. Thanks for being here. Thank you

28:06

so much. I am a big fan

28:08

of Shopify. They have been a long-time

28:11

sponsor here and Shopify is the commerce

28:13

platform behind millions of businesses and they

28:15

should be behind yours too because they

28:17

get it right. If you run a

28:20

business, you know, as I do, that

28:22

there are so many details that need

28:24

your attention. It can be... Overwhelming, finding

28:26

the right tool that can handle a

28:29

lot of those details and simplify the

28:31

selling process, well that's a game changer

28:33

and it makes your life easy and

28:36

helps you sell more, which is what

28:38

Shopify does. Shopify handles 10% of all

28:40

e-commerce in the US, from household names

28:42

like Mattel and JimShark. If Mattel and

28:45

Jim Shark are using Shopify as their

28:47

commerce platform, along with millions of other

28:49

businesses, shouldn't you be too? Shopify gets

28:51

you up and running with your own

28:54

design studio. They've got hundreds of ready-to-use

28:56

templates to build a beautiful online store

28:58

and AI tools that write product descriptions,

29:01

page headlines, and even enhance your product

29:03

photography. If you've ever tried to build

29:05

an online store, this has got to

29:07

sound pretty tempting. Turn your big business

29:10

ideas into... With Shopify on your side.

29:12

Sign up for your $1 per month

29:14

trial and start selling today at shopify.com/S-Y-S-K.

29:18

Exhima isn't always obvious, but it's

29:20

real. And so is the relief

29:23

from Epglis. After an initial dosing

29:25

phase of 16 weeks, about four

29:27

and ten people taking Epglis achieved

29:30

its relief and clear or almost

29:32

clear skin. And most of those

29:34

people maintained clear or almost clear

29:37

skin, and most of those

29:39

people maintained skin that's still

29:41

more clear at one year

29:43

with monthly dosing. Ebglis, library

29:45

kizumab, LBK, with moderate to

29:47

severe ecma. doctor

30:02

if you have new or worsening eye problems.

30:04

You should not receive a live vaccine when

30:07

treated with epglis. Before starting epglis, tell your

30:09

doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

30:11

Searching for real relief? Ask your

30:13

doctor about epglis and visit epglis.lis.lis.l.com

30:15

or call 1-800-R-X or 1-800-545. people

38:07

freaked out when they shut down

38:09

the beaches and they said, no,

38:11

you're not even allowed to go

38:14

to the beach. You can't even swim.

38:16

You have to stay away. And

38:18

they started arresting people with

38:21

their surfboards. That was a

38:23

really interesting experiment.

38:25

And people really got it. They

38:27

said, wow, when you take that away

38:30

from me, that made people

38:32

really uncomfortable. We are

38:34

water beings on a water planet,

38:36

and when you cut us off from

38:38

it, it feels bad. Is there

38:40

any sense, though, of, so we've

38:43

talked about, you know, people kind

38:45

of crave or seek out water,

38:47

that it's something that's kind

38:49

of part of being human and

38:51

can help your creativity, but... What

38:54

is it? Is it seeing it?

38:56

Is it hearing it? Is there

38:58

a sixth sense that you somehow

39:00

perceive it's nearby? What is

39:02

it exactly other than, yeah, it's

39:05

nice to have some water over

39:07

there? Yeah, when we take it apart,

39:09

we pull this concept apart

39:12

into its components. Like we

39:14

like to do that at

39:16

scientists and look at it through

39:18

each of the senses. There's

39:21

a special thing that water does.

39:23

related to each of our senses.

39:25

Now, the way we experience it, in

39:27

fact, is all together. So you pull

39:29

it apart to study it, but then

39:32

the actual experience of Blue

39:34

Mind is all of it together at

39:36

the same time. So you taste it and

39:39

you smell it and you hear it and

39:41

you feel it. So if you jump into

39:43

a body of water, you're getting the

39:46

multisensory experience. If

39:48

you're merely looking at a nice

39:50

video of some waves on your

39:52

laptop, it may be purely visual.

39:54

If you turn up the volume,

39:57

you might get the wave sound.

39:59

That's nice. goes to the next

40:01

level when you use all of

40:03

your senses. The somatic experience of

40:06

water, of the water really surrounding

40:08

you and touching all of your

40:10

skin cells at the same time,

40:13

the pressure of it, the buoyancy of

40:15

it, the temperature of it. So it's

40:17

all of that at the same time.

40:19

And so as we pull it apart, we

40:22

can kind of look at what

40:24

makes it special in each of

40:26

its components. But the experience

40:28

of Blue Mind is a

40:30

simultaneous sensory experience. And there's

40:32

really nothing quite like it.

40:34

I mean, really the best

40:37

comparison in our lives is

40:39

to music. The way music can

40:41

bring you up and take you down

40:43

and move you and boost your creativity

40:45

and pull your emotions around and

40:47

music that we like to get

40:50

us going in the morning and

40:52

music that helps us relax us

40:54

relax and music that makes us

40:57

sad. other songs that make us

40:59

happy. You can feel the music

41:01

kind of hitting you when you're

41:03

at a concert. That's really the

41:06

best comparison would be to

41:08

music, water and music together.

41:10

Well, that's a really extra

41:13

special. But like music, I

41:15

mean, there's water. that may do

41:17

things for you in a positive way,

41:19

like, you know, sitting in a hot

41:22

tub, but if you fall into a

41:24

lake that's, you know, partially frozen and

41:26

the water is freezing cold, it's not

41:29

so pleasant to be around that water.

41:31

That's right. You can play music that

41:33

bothers you. You know, sometimes my

41:35

kids play music. It's not my

41:37

style. Ask them to turn it

41:39

down or turn it off. You

41:41

can blow your eardrums out if

41:43

it's too loud. It can be

41:45

distracting. and annoying and like water

41:48

you know you it's dangerous

41:50

there is a downside and

41:52

I think that tension is

41:54

adds to the experience

41:56

that there's with the ocean

41:58

the ocean deserve our respect,

42:00

a big river, a frozen

42:03

lake, requires our knowledge

42:05

and our respect in order

42:07

to approach it correctly and

42:10

safely. So that tension actually

42:12

adds a component

42:14

to this experience. Well,

42:16

you know, something is always, I

42:19

find interesting is, I used to

42:21

have a house on a lake

42:23

in Vermont and would go up

42:26

there and sit out on the...

42:28

balcony there and look at

42:30

the lake and look at

42:32

it for hours. I mean,

42:34

just people would congregate out

42:36

there if the lake wasn't

42:38

there, if it was just

42:40

trees and bushes and whatever,

42:42

everybody wouldn't gravitate out

42:44

there. There's something, and it isn't

42:47

that it changes much. I mean,

42:49

it's a lake, but you know,

42:51

the water, the water's the water. But

42:54

it pulls you, you want to

42:56

go out there. And I've never

42:58

really understood why, but I

43:00

always want to go out there. And

43:02

hopefully you're starting to understand

43:05

why. And we started at, how

43:07

is this, how is this conversation

43:09

any more than just a tweet?

43:11

And now here we go. Now

43:14

we're going down the path and

43:16

understanding why sitting by

43:18

that lake, it holds you in

43:20

that place and pulls you

43:22

back. And psychologists call it

43:24

soft fascination. So it holds

43:26

you in that place. It

43:28

doesn't overwhelm you. The lake

43:30

isn't chattering and telling you

43:32

things and distracting you.

43:35

It's holding your attention though.

43:37

It's giving you just

43:39

enough visual and auditory

43:41

stimulation that you go. This is

43:43

interesting, but it's not requiring

43:46

you to process words and

43:48

images and language and solve

43:50

puzzles. it allows you to

43:52

kick back and create and

43:54

or have a conversation with

43:57

someone you care about while

43:59

being held in this place

44:02

of soft fascination. So

44:04

it's mildly mesmerizing and

44:06

soothing. And to kind of

44:08

extend that, it also pulls

44:10

us at romantic moments,

44:12

at memorialization

44:15

moments where we want

44:17

to go deeper emotionally

44:19

with someone or with a group

44:21

of people. Sacred vows or

44:23

commitments to each other. So

44:26

it's almost a cliche. that

44:28

ceremonies are held by the

44:30

water and honey moons go

44:32

to the water and memorializations

44:34

happen by the water. And

44:36

we don't really think about

44:39

that, but we just kind

44:41

of go there to do

44:43

those things because the

44:45

water brings this multi-sensory

44:47

experience that doesn't overwhelm us.

44:50

It's not like loud music

44:52

or a big show. It's just

44:54

the perfect backdrop. to

44:56

these important moments in our lives,

44:58

from birth all the way through

45:00

death. Well it's also interesting

45:03

too if you look at real estate prices.

45:05

You know it's the houses on the

45:08

beach that are the most expensive compared

45:10

to the houses, you know, a mile

45:12

inland in a lot of coastal towns.

45:15

It's the houses on the lake that

45:17

are real expensive as opposed to the

45:19

houses in town. So people know they

45:22

want to be near water and they're

45:24

willing to pay... more to be there.

45:27

That's right. They will pay sometimes

45:29

a thousand percent premium

45:31

for that water view

45:33

in some locations. On

45:35

average, across the US,

45:37

it's a 40% premium

45:39

in its lakes, rivers,

45:42

oceans, bays, any kind

45:44

of water. The proximity

45:47

to water imparts this

45:50

very significant financial or

45:52

economic premium. on real

45:54

estate. And if you ask people,

45:57

why are you willing to pay,

45:59

let's say, for this. They aren't

46:01

exactly sure, but they are willing

46:03

to pay it if, of course,

46:06

they have the money. And sometimes

46:08

when they don't, they'll go further

46:10

into debt, pay a bigger mortgage,

46:12

in order to have this feeling.

46:14

And so it's an emotional response

46:17

that drives real world hard money

46:19

decisions. Again to me that's worth

46:21

understanding a bit better Because it's

46:23

such a big part of who

46:26

we are and the decisions we

46:28

make and how we live Yeah,

46:30

and there probably aren't I can't

46:32

think of a lot of other

46:35

things like that that would people

46:37

would be willing to pay that

46:39

kind of premium for It's the

46:41

biggest premium in real estate terms.

46:44

Of course, access to good public

46:46

transportation and good schools and great

46:48

restaurants and so-called green space, parks.

46:50

Yes, of course, we'd like those

46:53

too. Walkability is an index that

46:55

you see. Is the community walkable?

46:57

Well, that's really great too. There's

46:59

a premium there. But you throw

47:02

an ocean view outside your window.

47:04

And, you know, in places like

47:06

Delmar, California, it's literally a thousand

47:08

percent premium compared to that second

47:11

row, the house right behind that

47:13

one. Might be a million dollar

47:15

house, but the one in the

47:17

front row is a $10 million

47:20

house. You go, what the heck

47:22

is going on there that makes

47:24

that premium pop so much? And,

47:26

you know, to my mind, I

47:28

just want to understand that better

47:31

because it is such a strong

47:33

driver of how we live. Yeah,

47:35

well, think about like on the

47:37

weekends, families will pile into the

47:40

car and drive to the beach.

47:42

Now, it's not necessarily anything to

47:44

do there other than play in

47:46

the water, be near the water,

47:49

make a sand castle, but it's

47:51

not like going to the movies

47:53

or... you know where there's a

47:55

not only a destination but something

47:58

to do you go to the

48:00

beach just to be at the

48:02

beach you just because there's something

48:04

about being there that that people

48:07

like right if you if you

48:09

if you took that family that

48:11

just piled in the car together

48:13

and you know pulled them aside

48:16

each one at a time and

48:18

said what are you getting out

48:20

of this you get a variety

48:22

of answers maybe mom and dad

48:25

are going to say this is

48:27

distress. It's a hard work week.

48:29

It's been a rough month and

48:31

I get a little bit of

48:34

relief from my stressful life. The

48:36

kids are going to go for

48:38

the play part. It's joyful. It's

48:40

playful. They get to run around.

48:42

A sense of freedom. Maybe life

48:45

in the city is just a

48:47

little more boxed up. But life

48:49

at the beach, you can run

48:51

in every direction and you can

48:54

jump in the water. You can

48:56

dig and you can play and

48:58

you can throw the ball, throw

49:00

the frisbee, whatever it is. Maybe

49:03

you get to see dolphins, maybe

49:05

you get to see crabs scurrying

49:07

around. There's an element of play

49:09

to it. And then in the

49:12

evening, the sunset, maybe there's some

49:14

calm romantic moment there that pulls

49:16

people together. And then the other

49:18

piece of this conversation, sleep comes.

49:21

comes on better and people say

49:23

they sleep better when they've spent

49:25

the day in the water or

49:27

near the water or they can

49:30

hear the sound of the water.

49:32

And that plays out in all

49:34

these popular sleep apps. The number

49:36

one downloads are ocean sounds, rain

49:39

sounds, creek sounds, nature sounds. So

49:41

we know that when we vacation

49:43

by the water we sleep better.

49:45

And so all of that. So

49:48

that's why we pile into the

49:50

car and take the journey and

49:52

go go to the edge of

49:54

the water. So you've been studying

49:56

this a long time. What's your...

49:59

finally here what's your message? Well

50:01

my I guess my mission in

50:03

life right now is to make

50:05

this common knowledge I'd like every

50:08

human being all eight billion of

50:10

us to understand their own blue

50:12

mind and then apply it accordingly

50:14

where they live and how they

50:17

live. Well I've always been one

50:19

of those people who's attracted to

50:21

water I know lots of other

50:23

people are attracted to water and

50:26

yet I don't think I've ever

50:28

talked about this with anyone before.

50:30

So this has been really an

50:32

eye-opening conversation. I've been speaking with

50:35

Wallace Nichols, and the name of

50:37

his book is Blue Mind, the

50:39

surprising science that shows how being

50:41

near, in, on, or underwater can

50:44

make you happier, healthier, more connected,

50:46

and better at what you do.

50:48

And there's a link to that

50:50

book in the show notes. Thanks,

50:53

Wallace. Excellent. My pleasure. If

50:55

your love life could use a

50:57

boost, there are some things you

51:00

can do outside the bedroom that

51:02

can make a big difference, according

51:04

to Lou Padgett, who is author

51:06

of a book called The Great

51:08

Lover Playbook. First of all, when

51:10

your partner does something that makes

51:12

you proud, say it out loud

51:14

and tell other people about it

51:17

too. Champion, your lover, and that

51:19

gets noticed. Pay attention. When your

51:21

partner has something to say, stop

51:23

what you're doing and really listen.

51:25

And get touchy, holding hands, a

51:27

longer embrace, or spontaneous caress, will

51:29

get noticed when it's not expected.

51:31

And kissing is one of the

51:34

easiest ways to jumpstart your love

51:36

life. Long-term couples tend to fall

51:38

into kissing routines, so consider switching

51:40

up the routine a bit. Start

51:42

kissing your partner the way you'd

51:44

like to be kissed. And that

51:46

is something you should know. As

51:48

any podcaster will tell you, word-of-mouth

51:51

advertising is about the best. So

51:53

the best way to support this

51:55

podcast is to tell someone you

51:57

know and ask them to get...

51:59

a listen. I'm Mike her brother's

52:01

thanks for listening today to something

52:03

you should know. Have you ever

52:05

heard about the 19th century French

52:08

actress with so many lovers that

52:10

they formed a lover as a

52:12

union? Or what about the aboriginal

52:14

Australian bandit who faked going into

52:16

labor just to escape the police,

52:18

which she did escape from them.

52:20

It was a great plan. How

52:22

about the French Queen who murdered

52:25

her rival with poison gloves? Iman

52:27

Foster hosted the feminist women's history,

52:29

comedy podcast, vulgar history. Every week

52:31

I share the saga of a

52:33

woman from history whose story you

52:35

probably didn't already know, and you

52:37

will never forget after you hear

52:39

it. Sometimes we reexamine well-known people

52:42

like Cleopatra or Pocahontas, sharing the

52:44

truth behind their legends. Sometimes we

52:46

look at the scandalous women you'll

52:48

never find in a history textbook.

52:50

Listen to vulgar history, wherever you

52:52

get podcasts. And if you're curious,

52:54

the people I was talking about

52:56

before, the Australian woman is named

52:58

Marian Bug, and the French actress

53:01

was named, Rochelle. and the Queen

53:03

who poisoned her rival is Catherine

53:05

De Medici. I have episodes about

53:07

all of them. On his podcast

53:09

Chasing Life, I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

53:11

CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you

53:13

the secrets of the happiest and

53:15

healthiest people on the planet so

53:18

that you can live your best

53:20

life. Are some people just born

53:22

happier than others? And what might

53:24

they be doing that the rest

53:26

of us aren't? Follow Chasing Life

53:28

with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on Apple,

53:30

Spotify, I-Hart podcast, Amazon Music, or

53:32

wherever you get your podcasts.