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0:31

on something you should know, why

0:34

you might want to deliberately lower

0:36

the pitch of your voice. Then,

0:38

um, butts. Why does there seem

0:40

to be such fascination with them?

0:43

People often think like having a

0:45

big butt or a small butt

0:47

means something. So like, oh, women

0:49

with big butts, they are more

0:51

fertile. That's a really commonly

0:53

held myth about butts. Yeah,

0:55

lots of people say that

0:58

to me. Have you ever

1:00

heard that? Also, should you

1:02

calculate the tip on a

1:04

restaurant bill before or after

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the tax? And how to

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apologize, because a good apology

1:10

is golden. The steps for

1:13

making a good apology are

1:15

so easy, and yet actually

1:17

doing them is so hard,

1:19

because our brains are not

1:22

wired for this. Apologizing is

1:24

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Hiring? Indeed is all you need.

2:58

Something you should know. Fascinating Intel.

3:01

The world's top experts. And practical

3:03

advice you can use in your

3:06

life. Today. Something you should know.

3:08

With Mike Carothers. Hey, welcome to

3:10

Something You Should Know. When you

3:13

speak you may want to try

3:15

to lower the pitch of your

3:18

voice. Why? Well, according to some

3:20

pretty solid research, people who speak

3:22

with lowered voices are perceived as

3:25

both more prestigious and more admirable.

3:27

Another study found that men have

3:30

a tendency to lower their voices

3:32

in order to try to dominate

3:34

in certain settings. In short, we

3:37

signal our dominance with lower pitched

3:39

voices. But interestingly... Stress and adrenaline

3:42

makes your voice go higher. In

3:44

fact, it turns out that people...

3:46

in higher pitched voices when they

3:49

talk to people of higher status

3:51

or when they're intimidated. Humans are

3:54

incredibly good at hearing the stress

3:56

in other people's voices. We pick

3:58

up on it immediately. And one

4:01

way to conceal that stress is

4:03

to deliberately lower your pitch. And

4:05

that is something you should know.

4:08

body part that we don't talk

4:10

about too much, but we certainly

4:13

think about it often enough, even

4:15

obsess about it at times. It

4:17

is the human butt. People think

4:20

theirs is too big or too

4:22

small or how does it look

4:25

in these jeans or other clothes.

4:27

Women's butts in particular are forever

4:29

being assessed and criticized and objectified.

4:32

So why do we have... Butts,

4:34

why are they such a topic

4:37

of interest and why have they

4:39

been for so long? Well here

4:41

to answer these and other questions

4:44

is Heather Radke. She's author of

4:46

a book called Butts, a backstory.

4:49

Hi Heather, welcome to something you

4:51

should know. Hi, thanks so much

4:53

for having me. Sure. Without getting

4:56

too personal here, why is this

4:58

topic of such interest to you?

5:01

I got interested in this topic

5:03

because I have a big butt

5:05

and when I was in high

5:08

school I'm a white woman who

5:10

grew up in the suburbs of

5:13

Lansing Michigan and when I was

5:15

in high school that felt like

5:17

yes not just something we didn't

5:20

talk about but you know something

5:22

to be a little bit ashamed

5:24

of it felt like kind of

5:27

the wrong body to have but

5:29

then over the last 30 years

5:32

that felt like it really started

5:34

to change and more and more

5:36

the kind of body I had

5:39

became. you know, an ideal of

5:41

beauty. It's became considered more attractive

5:44

and more part of the way

5:46

that we think of what a

5:48

beautiful woman's body might look like.

5:51

But to a lot of people,

5:53

this, you know, I think this

5:56

isn't really a topic for conversation

5:58

or it isn't a... topic for

6:00

conversation? What we talk about in

6:03

polite conversation was part of what

6:05

interested me about it because I

6:07

actually think these things like butts

6:09

that feel like oh we don't

6:11

talk about that or that's a

6:13

little bit too silly to take

6:15

seriously in those topics we actually

6:17

can find quite a lot that's

6:19

interesting in part because we actually

6:21

don't take it seriously and we don't

6:24

think it's polite to talk about. So

6:26

what is a but? Such a good question. It

6:28

seems like it should be easy

6:30

to answer, doesn't it? I guess in

6:32

a sense it is. Butts are basically

6:34

joints. They are the joint

6:36

where your hip connects to

6:38

your leg. It's the, there's

6:41

a muscle there, the gluteus

6:43

maximus, and there's actually a

6:45

couple others that make up

6:47

the human butt. And only

6:49

humans have butts. Some people

6:51

will kind of dispute this.

6:53

this fact, when I say

6:55

it, a lot of people

6:57

are like, no, like monkeys

6:59

have butts, but actually monkeys

7:01

just have joints. Only humans

7:03

have the gluteus maximus. And

7:06

why is it that it

7:08

sort of has, but doesn't

7:11

quite have, the reputation of

7:13

being, you know, sexual? It's

7:15

somehow a little bit naughty,

7:18

but it's not that naughty.

7:20

Yeah, it's a good question.

7:22

The butt as an anatomical

7:24

thing is basically muscles and

7:26

fat. So women have, human

7:29

females have more fat on their

7:31

butts than males and it's really

7:33

not a lot more than that.

7:36

It's a relatively simple part

7:38

of our body, but it

7:40

has come to take on

7:42

all these different cultural meanings.

7:44

And those meanings are kind

7:46

of, I think of it

7:48

as like it's almost like

7:50

it's heaped on top of

7:52

the anatomical truth. And that

7:54

comes from, you know, centuries

7:56

of equating butts with sexiness,

7:58

butts with race. There's just

8:00

a really long and complex history

8:03

about all of the kind of

8:05

cultural symbolism that we put onto

8:07

the butt. So as one of the few

8:09

people, perhaps the only person who has

8:11

really looked at the history of butts,

8:13

I mean, what do you find? What's

8:15

the story? I do think one of the

8:17

things that I encountered over and

8:20

over again when I was researching just

8:22

colloquially, like when I'd go to

8:24

a party or whatever, is people

8:26

often think like having a big butt.

8:28

or a small butt means something. So

8:30

like, oh, women with big butts,

8:32

they are more fertile. That's a

8:34

really commonly held myth about butts.

8:36

Yeah, lots of people say that

8:39

to me. Have you ever heard that?

8:41

No. Yeah, that comes out of

8:43

some evolutionary psychology research from the

8:45

90s, but it's really not true.

8:47

And the science around it feels

8:50

very flimsy, to me at least,

8:52

as a science reporter. So that's one

8:54

kind of stereotype people have. think

8:56

butts are really big butts are

8:59

really gross and some people think

9:01

small butts are really ugly and

9:03

all these kind like over and over

9:05

again the meanings we have about butts

9:08

that you you realize they don't come

9:10

from the actual you know factor the

9:12

science of the butt it actually comes

9:14

from different cultural moments so thin

9:17

bodies and thin butts kind of

9:19

come into fashion in the 1920s

9:21

super thin women's body start to

9:23

become equated with a certain sort

9:26

of liberation and bohemianism

9:28

and kind of chicness.

9:30

And that's essentially a stereotype

9:32

and a way of thinking

9:35

about bodies that's really continued

9:37

well into the 20th century

9:39

and really has never gone

9:41

away. So that's sort of a

9:43

stereotype in a sense about small butts.

9:46

And then, you know, I did a bunch

9:48

of work also about what I would call

9:50

like fit butts. So in the

9:52

1980s as the aerobics revolution starts

9:55

to happen. There's an aerobics program

9:57

called Buns of Steel that comes

9:59

into to being this man named

10:01

Greg Smithy invented it. It's like

10:03

wildly popular and people start to

10:05

try to actually not just have

10:07

like big butts and small butts but

10:09

also like strong steely butts and

10:12

that's definitely. you know, it's part

10:14

of a much bigger trend that's

10:16

about having fit bodies, but it

10:18

really speaks to a way we think

10:20

about our bodies as reflections of our

10:22

own ability to control ourselves essentially. So

10:24

to have a strong butt is to

10:27

be kind of in control of your

10:29

body to be a, to like have a bon of

10:31

steel is to have a butt that's like,

10:33

you know, capable of doing hard work.

10:35

And we even see that in the language

10:37

we have about butts like, I'm going

10:39

to kick your butt. Well, it's interesting

10:42

that you use the phrase that, you

10:44

know, butts, certain types of butts come

10:46

in and out of fashion, much like

10:48

clothes come in and out of fashion,

10:51

but my sense is that if it

10:53

is one of the most difficult parts

10:55

of the body to change, even if

10:57

you wanted to, like how you would

10:59

like get into fashion by change, it's

11:02

very difficult to change your butt. Oh

11:04

my goodness, you're absolutely right.

11:06

I mean, I think it's like actually

11:08

just pretty difficult to change your body.

11:10

One of the things when I started working

11:13

on this book really early on was this was

11:15

a question I have is like, how can a

11:17

body part come in and out of fashion? I

11:19

mean, it happens all the time, but what it's

11:21

really asking of people and of women in

11:23

particular is to radically alter something that's

11:25

all but unalterable. You know, lots of

11:28

these days, the main... the most extreme

11:30

way and a way that's very popular

11:32

alter your butt is to have plastic

11:34

surgery. But really, it's one of the

11:36

only ways you can meaningfully change

11:38

what your butt looks like. You know,

11:40

you can do what Jane Fonda calls like

11:43

rover kicks, you know, like donkey kicks or

11:45

whatever, all day long, and you'll have like

11:47

a slightly bigger butt, but, but you

11:49

can't really make an enormous butt out

11:51

of a small butt. It's just not really

11:54

possible. So it's one of the...

11:56

reasons why it's actually just so bizarre

11:58

that fashion asks us this. of us

12:00

is that it's asking something that's kind of

12:02

not actually humanly possible is to change

12:05

what your butt looks like. But that's

12:07

probably also true about breast size or

12:09

other parts of our body where the demands

12:11

of fashion to be something actually fundamentally

12:14

different than what you are. It's just

12:16

actually, it's part of why it's so

12:18

emotionally difficult to contend with

12:20

and also why so many women

12:22

end up being really frustrated by

12:24

the fashion industry is that it's

12:26

actually asking something that's like not. easy

12:29

to do and really in

12:31

many cases not possible to do.

12:33

Well it seems that buts like

12:35

other body parts often people

12:38

have the one that they wish

12:40

they didn't have that people with

12:42

big buts wish theirs with smaller

12:45

people with small buts wish theirs

12:47

were bigger and you know there

12:49

is that attraction thing and some

12:51

people like big but some people

12:54

like small but I mean it's

12:56

also very subjective, but it's

12:58

very easy to be dissatisfied

13:00

with the one you have.

13:02

I really like to think about it,

13:04

like the way I, one of the

13:07

scientists I interviewed told, his name

13:09

is Chris Hoff, and he said

13:11

to me that any butt that's

13:13

not killing you is... a good enough butt,

13:16

basically. And I think that's a nice

13:18

way to think about it. Like, probably

13:20

your butt is attractive to somebody, and

13:22

that's like a great thing. Human variation

13:25

is a wonderful part of what it

13:27

is to be human. It's part of how

13:29

we're able to continue to live as

13:31

a species. And probably there's somebody

13:33

out there who thinks your butt

13:35

is great. And to me, that

13:37

feels like a really exciting part

13:39

of the research that I found

13:41

is like there isn't actually a

13:44

but that is fundamentally

13:46

correct. We're talking about butts,

13:48

which seems a very odd thing

13:50

for me to say in this

13:52

podcast, but that is what we

13:54

are talking about. And my guest

13:56

is Heather Radke. She's author of

13:58

a book called Butts. story. Build

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Food These statements have not been evaluated

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This product is not intended to diagnose,

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treat, cure, or prevent any disease. any

27:30

disease. So

28:00

what makes a good apology and

28:02

what makes a bad one? Here

28:04

to discuss this is Marjorie

28:06

Engel. She's author of a

28:08

book called Sorry, Sorry, Sorry,

28:10

Sorry, The Case for Good

28:13

Apologies. Hey Marjorie, welcome. Thanks

28:15

so much for having me, Mike. So

28:17

on the surface you would think what

28:19

could be simpler. You do something

28:21

wrong, you say you're sorry, life

28:24

goes on. But as we have

28:26

all experienced, it somehow isn't quite

28:28

so easy. for making a

28:31

good apology are so easy

28:33

and yet actually doing them

28:35

is so hard because

28:38

our brains are not

28:40

wired for this. Apologizing

28:42

is a really brave

28:44

act that really builds

28:46

bridges between people when they're

28:49

done right. but when they're

28:51

done wrong, which is everything

28:54

our brain is telling us

28:56

to do, we are absolutely

28:58

shimmering and shivering with this

29:01

desire to apologize badly or

29:03

not at all and to

29:06

blame the other person and

29:08

to throw up defensive walls,

29:10

it's so hard because we

29:13

want to see ourselves as

29:15

the hero in our own story.

29:17

And apologizing well means...

29:19

understanding that you were

29:21

the bad guy in somebody

29:24

else's story. So what is the

29:26

anatomy of a good apology?

29:28

A good apology really

29:30

is six easy steps, maybe

29:32

six and a half. The

29:34

first one is say I'm

29:37

sorry or I apologize, which

29:39

sounds so fundamental and yet

29:41

somebody's always going to say

29:43

I regret. or not using that

29:46

word at all. And regret is

29:48

about how you feel. Apologies

29:50

are making the other person

29:52

feel heard. You have to say

29:55

the thing that you did. Don't

29:57

say the situation or that incident.

29:59

or what happened, name the thing,

30:02

which is, again, our brains are

30:04

so wired to just steer us

30:06

away from looking at what we

30:08

did. Show that you understand the

30:11

impact. Show that you understand why

30:13

the other person was hurt. If

30:15

you need to explain, do so,

30:17

but be really wary of excuses.

30:20

I honestly think this is the

30:22

hardest step. Number five is if

30:24

you can. explain the steps that

30:26

you are taking to make sure

30:29

that this never happens again, that

30:31

you don't do it, that somebody

30:33

else doesn't do it, whatever power

30:35

you have to prevent it happening

30:38

again, do it. Number six is

30:40

if you can make reparations, make

30:42

reparations. And the half step is

30:44

sort of listening. People really want

30:47

to be heard. So you said

30:49

a couple of times that our

30:51

brains are not wired to do

30:53

this. Explain what that, what do

30:56

you mean? What is it wired

30:58

to do and why is it

31:00

wired that way? The way we

31:02

function is by seeing ourselves as

31:05

the protagonist in the novel that

31:07

is our life. We see ourselves

31:09

as a good person doing good,

31:11

putting out good into the world.

31:14

We tend to remember the slights

31:16

that other people. have made against

31:18

us, but not the ones that

31:20

we make against other people. And

31:23

that's so we don't wind up

31:25

curled in a corner sobbing with

31:27

guilt and self-recrimination and self-consciousness. You

31:29

have to see yourself as good.

31:32

We all see ourselves as good.

31:34

And apologizing well means putting yourself

31:36

in a one-down position. I guess

31:38

people like to think that they're

31:40

right, and as you say in

31:43

their own story, they're the hero.

31:45

But we all know people make

31:47

mistakes, people do things wrong, people

31:49

say stupid things. Just not us.

31:52

I don't. Right. Exactly. One of

31:54

those phrases you never want to

31:56

hear in an apology and hear

31:58

far too often. is I'm not

32:01

perfect? Well, nobody's perfect, but it

32:03

seems particularly difficult to admit to

32:05

an actual incidence of imperfection while

32:07

you're apologizing. What do we know

32:10

about what a good apology does

32:12

on the other side of the

32:14

table? I think there's a reason

32:16

why we crave good apology stories

32:19

in the media. in the news,

32:21

you know, good apologies are so

32:23

often a feature of, you know,

32:25

good things that happen today, happy

32:28

stories in magazines and newspapers. They

32:30

make us feel that the world

32:32

is a warm place where humans

32:34

look out for each other, that

32:37

the world is a small town.

32:39

And we'd all like to think

32:41

that we could be a character

32:43

in this story. The most recent

32:46

thing that I saw that went

32:48

viral was a drunk guy stole

32:50

a Santa from a small town

32:52

in North Carolina, and he returned

32:55

it the next day with flowers

32:57

for the owner. And he said,

32:59

I just saw it and thought

33:01

that looked cool, and I took

33:04

it. and I feel really bad

33:06

about it and I'm sorry and

33:08

is there anything I can do

33:10

to help you out around your

33:13

restaurant and it was just so

33:15

sweet that you know it's such

33:17

a small story but it went

33:19

viral. Well but it's interesting that

33:22

we all appreciate a good apology

33:24

when we see someone apologize like

33:26

your guy that stole the sand

33:28

and there we think well isn't

33:31

that touching that he stole the

33:33

sand and brought it back and

33:35

said all those nice things. If

33:37

we see that working, it makes

33:40

you wonder why we're so reluctant

33:42

to do it ourselves, when clearly

33:44

it's a pretty effective strategy to

33:46

get people on your side. Right.

33:49

The rules are always different when

33:51

it comes to us, right? We

33:53

didn't... anything wrong. We are more

33:55

sinned against than sinning. And you

33:58

know, it's always funny to me

34:00

when somebody in the media in

34:02

particular gives this horrible apology like

34:04

that sun columnist Jeremy Clarkson who

34:07

compared Megan Markle to a serial

34:09

killer in British history and then

34:11

to like some villain on Game

34:13

of Thrones. and said she should

34:16

be made to parade naked through

34:18

the streets of every town in

34:20

England while people threw lumps of

34:22

excrement at her. And then his

34:25

apology was like, oh dear, I've

34:27

put my foot in it. I

34:29

made a clumsy little joke about

34:31

Game of Thrones and it went

34:34

down badly and I'm horrified to

34:36

have caused so much hurt. I'll

34:38

be more careful in future. And

34:40

I read it, you know, people

34:43

send us these terrible apologies on

34:45

our website Sorrywatch. And it didn't

34:47

occur to me until after I'd

34:49

even tweeted about it, that it

34:52

wasn't an apology at all, that

34:54

it didn't say sorry or apologize,

34:56

and it's what we call an

34:58

apology-shaped object. It takes the form

35:01

of an apology, but it is

35:03

not one. And that just makes

35:05

people angrier. But when it's us

35:07

on the chopping block, no, it

35:10

was people didn't get my joke.

35:12

It seems to me that, well,

35:14

there are times when people demand

35:16

apologies or expect apologies apologies when...

35:18

Maybe just get over it. I

35:21

mean we people are very sensitive

35:23

in my view people get very

35:25

offended and want to be apologized

35:27

to When there was when there

35:30

was no intent to hurt anybody

35:32

It's just a different view of

35:34

the world and maybe we don't

35:36

need to be so sensitive and

35:39

demand apologies for being offended I'm

35:41

going to gently push back here

35:43

that it depends on the offense

35:45

right Okay, so the most recent

35:48

thing that I did was misgender

35:50

someone. Use the wrong pronouns and

35:52

You know, I was hitting someone

35:54

where they live and so I

35:57

think it's appropriate for me to

35:59

apologize for that It's also appropriate

36:01

for me to keep it short

36:03

and sweet and not turn this

36:06

into a whole all about me.

36:08

Oh, rending my garments, ripping out

36:10

my hair. I feel terrible. Please,

36:12

please forgive me that I, you

36:15

know, called you he when you

36:17

are she, but don't people deserve

36:19

to be called what they want

36:21

to be called? To me, that's

36:24

not something to apologize for. If

36:26

somebody's offended, but it was an

36:28

honest mistake, if somebody looks like

36:30

your impression of what a man

36:33

looks like and you call someone

36:35

a man and that turns out

36:37

they're not, well, that's not your

36:39

fault. I mean, it's just, it's,

36:42

it's, no intent was there to

36:44

cause harm. Right. But if, if

36:46

you've been told and you still

36:48

get it wrong, which is what

36:51

I did? I think if you

36:53

keep screwing up, you owe someone

36:55

an apology, but you also don't

36:57

owe either you or them this

37:00

theatrical, you know, oh my God,

37:02

I suck so bad. Well, what

37:04

about that idea of don't apologize

37:06

if you're not sorry? You know,

37:09

sometimes people apologize just to prevent

37:11

the conflict. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm

37:13

sorry. I did that. Now let's

37:15

move on. And they're not really

37:18

sorry, they just don't want to

37:20

get bogged down in that. And

37:22

that seems to be okay. Let's

37:24

move on apology. Don't do it.

37:27

Resist the call, but talk to

37:29

someone you trust to say, am

37:31

I reading this wrong? Because again,

37:33

we are wired to be self-protective.

37:36

And your friend may have a

37:38

better take on the situation than

37:40

you. And your friend may be

37:42

able to show you, oh, you

37:45

know, you really did offend, and

37:47

here's what you can say. If

37:49

there's a thing that you're sorry

37:51

for, apologize for that. Don't apologize

37:54

for what you're not sorry for.

37:56

Let's talk about bad apologies. To

37:58

me, a bad apology often starts

38:00

with, I'm sorry but, or I'm

38:03

sorry if. Yeah, I'm sorry if

38:05

you were hurt. I forgot that

38:07

you really don't have a sense

38:09

of humor. I wasn't aware that

38:12

you were so fragile. Yeah, like

38:14

we joke that like if the

38:16

word. Obviously, appears in the apology,

38:18

you're already going to be mad

38:21

when you hear about it. Obviously,

38:23

I didn't mean to hurt your

38:25

feelings. Or, you know, I've already

38:27

apologized, but okay. It's unfortunate that,

38:30

like, these are all words that

38:32

make you go, but when somebody

38:34

actually makes eye contact with you

38:36

and says, I'm trying to understand

38:39

how I screwed up here, I

38:41

know you're mad. Can we talk

38:43

about it? What can I do?

38:45

What can I do? to make

38:48

amends here. I think when it's

38:50

unfiltered that way, and you're actually

38:52

looking into another human being's eyes,

38:54

an apology can be such a

38:56

bridge-building, societyally connecting beautiful thing, and

38:59

I think given how hard it

39:01

is to do well, we should

39:03

be applauding these when we see

39:05

them. So what do you suggest

39:08

people say when they get one

39:10

of these crappy apologies when someone

39:12

comes to them and says you

39:14

know I'm sorry but or I'm

39:17

sorry if or what's the response?

39:19

And okay so say they they

39:21

do a sorry if you can

39:23

call them on it just say

39:26

wait you just said sorry if

39:28

do you mean sorry if you

39:30

know you don't say sorry if

39:32

you hurt me you're you're apologizing

39:35

you know you hurt me and

39:37

almost all of the time if

39:39

they are coming to you in

39:41

good faith they're like you're like

39:44

you're right. We have to come

39:46

to each other in good faith.

39:48

Let's talk about accepting an apology

39:50

because not everybody's particularly gracious at

39:53

that. So let's talk. about that.

39:55

We like to say apologies are

39:57

mandatory for forgiveness is not. If

39:59

you're getting the crappy apology that

40:02

is clearly not sincere and just

40:04

intended to smooth the way or

40:06

you know fine you know come

40:08

home for Christmas I I'm sorry

40:11

I did blah blah blah or

40:13

you know clearly the office manager

40:15

is making you apologize you don't

40:17

have to accept those. You know

40:20

you can just say thanks. And

40:22

I appreciate you saying that and

40:24

move on. But if someone says

40:26

to you, I want us to

40:29

really connect, that's what an apology

40:31

is, right? It behoves us to

40:33

listen. And we can help guide

40:35

the person that sometimes people don't

40:38

know what they did. Instead of

40:40

being mad that the person doesn't

40:42

know what they did, help them

40:44

see what they did. What use

40:47

does it serve for both of

40:49

you if they don't understand why

40:51

you're mad and you can't articulate

40:53

or won't articulate why you're mad?

40:56

I bet everyone listening has one

40:58

of those people in their lives

41:00

that does that thing where they

41:02

just say things because they want

41:05

to be honest. Like, you know,

41:07

those shoes look terrible. Or, you

41:09

know, I really like your hair

41:11

the old way. Or, you know,

41:14

and they say it because they

41:16

think it needs to be said.

41:18

They say it because they think

41:20

they're telling you the truth. And

41:23

you wonder, is it worth demanding

41:25

an apology because they hurt your

41:27

feelings? Or do we all have

41:29

to put up with those people?

41:32

I mean, they say things that

41:34

are hurtful. If it's, you know,

41:36

you need to lose weight, the

41:38

person is aware of their weight.

41:41

If it's... your sister gets A's,

41:43

why can't you get A's? All

41:45

of these things are true maybe,

41:47

but not helpful. You know, there

41:50

used to be a sign in

41:52

my kid's kindergarten. that said is

41:54

it true is it kind is

41:56

it necessary and those are all

41:59

I mean it's stupid but it's

42:01

true if someone is really hurt

42:03

what's more important being right or

42:05

being happy being right or salvaging

42:08

this relationship yeah well that's a

42:10

question some people have trouble answering

42:12

because sometimes they really want to

42:14

be right yes Yeah I married

42:17

one and I love him and

42:19

he unfortunately he usually is right

42:21

which is very difficult for me

42:23

personally but yeah sorry is hard

42:25

when you are when you are

42:28

often the person who is right.

42:30

It is such an interesting topic

42:32

because we're all at times on

42:34

one side of the table or

42:37

the other in this where we've

42:39

either done something that we wish

42:41

we hadn't and now need to

42:43

apologize or we're the ones who

42:46

are waiting for the apology. And

42:48

we've all been on both sides

42:50

of the table, so we know

42:52

what it's like for the other

42:55

person, and yet... Yes. And there's

42:57

some really well-designed and amusing studies

42:59

that look at... Let me think

43:01

about times I've wronged other people

43:04

versus times I've been wronged, and

43:06

A, we're way better at coming

43:08

up with more times that we

43:10

have been wronged than when we

43:13

have wronged others, and there are

43:15

always... There was a reason we

43:17

did, but with the other person.

43:19

A, they do it all the

43:22

time. And B, it's completely unmotivated.

43:24

Why did they do that? Which

43:26

is, again, we are marvelously complex,

43:28

intricate mechanisms as human beings designed

43:31

to not see our own culpability.

43:33

And there's so many studies that

43:35

back that up. I want to

43:37

talk about time because I imagine

43:40

everybody has done something in their

43:42

past that in retrospect they regret

43:44

they didn't necessarily apologize for it

43:46

at the time but with age

43:49

and wisdom you start to think,

43:51

well, maybe that wasn't so cool.

43:53

Is it worth going back and

43:55

apologizing? Because in retrospect, it seems

43:58

like it would be. Nothing wrong

44:00

with in retrospect. You know, like

44:02

retrospect can be really those, you

44:04

know, rose colored backwards glasses can

44:07

be super, duper helpful. You know,

44:09

in the moment, things get heated.

44:11

In the moment. you know, all

44:13

we're thinking about is being self-protective

44:16

and retrospect can be a great

44:18

way to look at things and

44:20

reevaluate and change your story. In

44:22

the research that you did, was

44:25

there any, like one thing, one

44:27

sparkling diamondy thing that if you

44:29

have a big apology to make

44:31

would make it really special, would

44:34

make it really succeed? was a

44:36

study that people liked talking about

44:38

that showed the impact of a

44:40

thank you note, that we don't,

44:43

we completely underestimate how happy people

44:45

are to get a thank you

44:47

note, that we think, oh, you

44:49

know, I'm not a good writer,

44:52

oh, they already know I'm grateful,

44:54

oh, they're going to think I'm

44:56

sucking up, but when somebody opens

44:58

that thank you note, they are

45:01

thrilled. And I think that... Although

45:03

I haven't seen a study showing

45:05

this, I think apologies are similar.

45:07

I can recall some of the

45:10

great apologies I have received. You

45:12

know, I had an ex maybe

45:14

10 years after we broke up,

45:16

send me a note out of

45:19

the blue, saying that he was

45:21

getting married, and he just wanted

45:23

me to know that even though

45:25

sometimes he didn't seem like he

45:28

was listening when we were together,

45:30

he was, and he thought that...

45:32

He was going to be a

45:34

better husband because of the time

45:37

that we had spent together and

45:39

there was no return address and

45:41

I actually loved that because it

45:43

showed that there was no ulterior

45:46

motive. It was just the nicest

45:48

thing and I'm going to carry

45:50

that for the rest of my

45:52

life. So you're saying an apology

45:55

in writing may have even more

45:57

force than an apology in writing

45:59

when you know that it's not

46:01

calculating you know that there's no

46:03

ulterior motive to it. It was

46:06

just a kind act and it

46:08

also it made me reflect back

46:10

on a bad breakup in a

46:12

way that made me think more

46:15

warmly about the whole relationship. Yeah,

46:17

if you can apologize to someone

46:19

and you suspect that it's something

46:21

that they want to hear, that

46:24

they would be happy to hear,

46:26

you may underestimate how happy it

46:28

will make them. And if you

46:30

think that they might not want

46:33

to hear from you, if you

46:35

do it, you know, you never

46:37

want somebody to feel cornered by

46:39

an apology. If somebody, if you're

46:42

apologizing to someone face to face

46:44

and they're backing away from you,

46:46

sometimes people move forward because they

46:48

really want you to understand, no.

46:51

But if you write someone a

46:53

letter, oh, especially on nice creamy

46:55

stationary, with a pen, people are

46:57

so happy. Well, for anyone who

47:00

has struggled making an apology or

47:02

accepting an apology for that matter,

47:04

I think this has been really

47:06

interesting and important to hear. I've

47:09

been speaking with Marjorie Ingoll. She

47:11

is co-author of the book, Sorry,

47:13

Sorry, The Case for Good Apologies,

47:15

and you'll find a link to

47:18

that book in the show notes.

47:20

Thanks for being here, Marjorie. Appreciate

47:22

it. Thank you so much, Mike.

47:24

This was wonderful. I think most

47:27

of us would agree that 20%

47:29

is the standard amount you would

47:31

leave as a tip at a

47:33

restaurant. The question is, should you

47:36

calculate that 20% before or after

47:38

the tax? Steve Dublonica, who's a

47:40

former waiter and author of a

47:42

book called Keep the Change, says

47:45

after the tax is best because

47:47

most servers total their sales at

47:49

the end of the night. and

47:51

include the tax in that amount.

47:54

The cash-out amount is what determines

47:56

how much they tip to busboys,

47:58

runners, and other staff members. If

48:00

you're a stickler and prefer to

48:03

tip pre-tax, that's okay. servers understand

48:05

that tax could be pretty significant

48:07

on a big restaurant check, but

48:09

you might want to at least...

48:12

Round up a little. Steve also

48:14

has some advice if you're tempted

48:16

to leave a bad tip. Even

48:18

if your server really, really screwed

48:21

things up, keep in mind that

48:23

the tip money is being distributed

48:25

to multiple people. So it's not

48:27

really fair to penalize the other

48:30

employees who did their part. You

48:32

should try telling the manager that

48:34

you had poor service, because most

48:36

restaurant managers want to know if

48:39

you're unhappy. And that is something

48:41

you should know. It would be

48:43

great, it's not required, but it

48:45

would certainly be appreciated if you

48:48

would leave a review of this

48:50

podcast. Most podcast platforms allow you

48:52

to leave ratings and reviews, and

48:54

one from you would be most

48:57

appreciated. I'm Michael Rothers. Thanks for

48:59

listening today to Something You Should

49:01

Know. Hi, I'm Laura Cathcartes, and

49:03

I am the host and creator

49:06

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We talk to real people dealing

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Everyone is invited to share their

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With 21 seasons and counting, we

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only one in the room on

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50:04

Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to

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50:11

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That would be something that yes,

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You can listen to cruising on

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