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hunger affects what you buy,

0:32

not just groceries, everything you

0:34

buy. Then, some facts and

0:36

myths about screen time and

0:38

video games. You know,

0:40

there was a big concern for

0:42

a while about violence in

0:44

video games. Generally, the research

0:47

does not support any long -term

0:49

links between playing violent video

0:51

games and violent or aggressive outcomes

0:53

in the long term. Also,

0:55

while listening to other people

0:57

talk on their phones can drive

0:59

you nuts. And the

1:02

amazing ways your body works. Your

1:04

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1:06

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1:09

There's been studies where they've watched people

1:11

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1:13

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1:15

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really think that this maintenance time of

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this today on Something You Should Know.

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3:01

that link is also in the show

3:03

notes. I

3:18

think everybody knows that it's a

3:20

bad idea to go grocery shopping

3:22

when you're hungry because you're going

3:24

to spend more money and buy

3:26

more junk. But there's more to

3:28

the story. Hi and

3:30

welcome to this episode of Something You

3:32

Should Know. Not only does

3:35

research support the fact that grocery shopping

3:37

when you're hungry will cause you to

3:39

spend more money, you probably

3:41

have personal experience in

3:43

that regard. But it turns

3:45

out that shopping for anything

3:47

on an empty stomach is a

3:49

bad idea. Researchers at

3:51

the University of Minnesota found

3:53

that hungry people spent 64

3:55

% more money at the

3:57

mall on anything than shoppers

4:00

who were not hungry. Apparently,

4:03

Hunger kicks in that human desire

4:05

to hunt and gather. And since

4:07

few of us are hunting and

4:09

gathering in the traditional sense, we

4:12

go shopping instead. Also,

4:14

be aware of the scent of

4:16

cinnamon. It seems that that makes you

4:18

want to spend more money. And

4:21

if you're a woman, a

4:23

University of Texas study found that

4:25

women want to buy more

4:27

stuff when they're ovulating. So that's

4:29

another time to avoid going

4:31

shopping. And that is something you

4:33

should know. A

4:38

very big concern today is

4:40

screen time. How much time you

4:42

or your kids have a

4:44

computer or a tablet or a

4:46

phone screen in front of

4:49

your face. And the assumption

4:51

is that you're probably spending too

4:53

much time looking at screens. And

4:55

what you really need to do is

4:57

cut back and spend less time with

4:59

screens. But what is too

5:02

much time? What's the actual harm?

5:04

Does screen time affect everyone the same

5:06

way? What does the

5:08

research say about how screen time

5:11

impacts people? The

5:13

answers to those questions just may

5:15

surprise you. And here to

5:17

reveal all this is Jacqueline Nisi.

5:19

She is a psychologist and assistant

5:22

professor at Brown University. And

5:24

she writes a popular weekly

5:26

newsletter called Technosapiens, which provides tips

5:28

to manage your screen time. Jackie

5:31

has published over 50

5:33

peer -reviewed publications related to

5:36

technology use. She's testified

5:38

before U .S. Congressional and

5:40

state legislative committees on issues

5:42

surrounding technology and mental

5:44

health. Hey Jackie, welcome

5:46

to something you should know. Hey, thank

5:48

you so much for having me.

5:50

So you hear all the time people

5:53

talk about all the time about

5:55

how there we shouldn't be on screen

5:57

so much that you know get

5:59

off your phone you're you're on your

6:01

screens too much and all that

6:03

because why because what do we know

6:05

are the real risks the real

6:07

dangers we hear it's bad but but

6:09

I never hear like how exactly

6:11

is it bad yeah yeah I mean

6:13

I do think that there broadly

6:15

is a very negative narrative when

6:18

it comes to screen time. And I

6:20

don't know if that is always warranted

6:22

based on what we know from the

6:24

research. What we actually know is that

6:26

it's more of a mixed bag. Right?

6:28

Like the effects of screen time really

6:30

depend on what's happening during that screen

6:32

time and on who the person is.

6:34

You know, people have very different actions

6:36

to the same experience on their screens.

6:39

So there's a lot that goes into it. But

6:42

when it comes to thinking

6:44

about the risks of screen time,

6:46

I would say there's two

6:48

broad categories of risk. So one

6:50

is just around the time spent

6:52

and concerns that that time

6:54

is getting in the way of

6:56

other things. that are important for

6:58

our well -being. Whether that's spending

7:00

time in person with friends or

7:02

family, or spending

7:05

time outside, being physically

7:07

active. When screen time

7:09

starts to really get in the way of those

7:11

things, then I think that that certainly can

7:13

be a risk. The other

7:15

category, I would say, is

7:17

around the content we're seeing

7:19

on our screens. You

7:21

know, we know that there's a lot happening,

7:23

for example, when we're scrolling social media. There's

7:25

a lot we see that maybe is not

7:27

the best for our well -being, is maybe

7:30

not making us feel our best. And

7:32

so I think that's another risk as well. That's

7:34

certainly true that if you're on your

7:36

screen... not doing something else and what

7:38

else could you be doing exactly or

7:40

maybe you are but you're not really

7:43

totally present in whatever that other thing

7:45

is that you're doing well they there

7:47

there's a big problem because that you

7:49

know that drives me crazy and I'm

7:51

sure drives a lot of people crazy

7:53

when. You don't have

7:55

someone's full attention when you're talking to them

7:57

and they think it's fine for them to

7:59

talk to you. And be

8:01

on their phone scrolling or

8:04

texting to somebody else. I

8:06

find that so rude,

8:08

but it's not just rude.

8:10

It's like, well, I guess

8:12

it is just rude. It's like, you're not

8:14

important enough to get my undivided attention. Yeah,

8:17

you know, it's funny. There's

8:19

actually in the research, psychologists have

8:21

kind of come up with

8:23

all these different names for that

8:25

exact phenomenon because it is

8:27

so common. So there's a word

8:30

called technoference, meaning technology and

8:32

interference. Typically that's used in

8:34

like parenting work. So where technology

8:36

is really interfering with interactions that parents

8:38

are having with their kids. And

8:40

then there's another term that's

8:42

kind of funny called fubbing. which

8:44

is basically phone and snubbing, meaning

8:48

typically used in more like

8:50

partner and friend kind of

8:52

research. So thinking about when

8:54

we're on our phones and

8:56

in the presence of friends

8:58

or partners. And that

9:00

is in some ways, you know, we're snubbing

9:02

them because we're not giving them our full

9:04

attention. And there is some

9:06

evidence that, you know, unsurprisingly, that

9:08

that experience can have negative impacts

9:10

on the relationship, on our sense

9:12

of connection and relationship quality, but

9:14

also on our mood and our

9:16

well -being. I think we often

9:18

think that spending that time on

9:20

our screens is gonna make us

9:22

feel better or less bored or

9:24

whatever it might be, but actually

9:26

it does tend to have a

9:28

more negative impact on our mood. Well,

9:31

I think everyone would agree

9:33

with what you just said,

9:35

because there are times when

9:37

everybody, I mean, probably even

9:39

you, likes to

9:41

just scroll mindlessly through

9:43

some social media something

9:45

for a few minutes. But

9:48

it's like junk food.

9:50

It doesn't satisfy anything

9:52

other than in that

9:54

very moment, but there's

9:57

no other satisfaction to

9:59

it. Yeah, there's an

10:01

interesting study actually that came

10:03

out last year, which I think

10:05

really illustrates this, where they

10:07

was with college students and they

10:09

essentially had college students in

10:11

a waiting room, like waiting to

10:13

what they thought was participating

10:15

the actual study. But half of

10:18

the students, they had wait

10:20

with their phones. And half

10:22

of them, they had to wait without their

10:24

phones. And the students who didn't have their

10:26

phones thought that they were going to feel

10:28

worse. Thought they were going to be bored.

10:30

They thought it was going to be awkward,

10:32

kind of waiting around all these other students

10:34

with no distraction of their phones. But

10:37

actually, in the end, unsurprisingly, they

10:39

ended up feeling better. They ended up

10:41

reporting better mood at the end

10:43

of the study because they ended up

10:45

socializing with the people around them

10:47

and weren't as distracted by their devices.

10:50

So I think that what we think

10:52

is going to feel good is

10:54

not always the thing that ends up

10:56

actually making us feel good. What

10:58

did they do instead? Were they just

11:00

sitting there with their thoughts or

11:02

were they reading a book or what

11:04

were they doing? No, yeah. So

11:06

they provided some kind of entertainment for

11:08

those students if they wanted it.

11:10

I remember this particular detail of this

11:12

study is that they had a

11:14

giant Jenga game in the room in

11:16

case students wanted to play and

11:18

some other stuff around. But for the

11:20

most part, they were just waiting

11:22

with other students. So I think it

11:24

was more about the socializing, where

11:26

they ended up striking up conversations. Well,

11:28

that's the thing. Scrolling

11:31

on your phone is

11:33

a solitary activity and you

11:35

can see lots of

11:37

people together, but they're all

11:39

on their phones. And so they're

11:41

not really together and taking advantage

11:43

or getting the benefits from the

11:46

socializing part of it. They might

11:48

as well just be home in

11:50

their room. Yeah. You know,

11:52

one of the things that we know

11:54

about screen time and phone use is

11:56

that, you know, as I said before,

11:58

I think there are ways that it

12:00

can be done where it can promote

12:02

our well -being and ways where it

12:04

can really interfere with our well -being. And

12:06

part of that I think really comes

12:08

down to the social aspects. So

12:11

if we're using, you

12:13

know, our phones to promote

12:15

connection, social connection, whether that's, you

12:17

know, we're sending a text to a friend to

12:19

check in on how they're doing, Maybe

12:22

we're sending someone a message to make plans

12:24

to meet up. Those kinds of things, obviously,

12:26

are going to be good, are going to

12:28

make us feel better. But if

12:30

we're using our phones in ways that are

12:32

interfering with social connection, whether that's

12:34

we're sitting on our phones scrolling

12:36

and looking at how much fun everyone

12:38

else is having on social media,

12:40

or we're sitting on our phones when

12:42

we should be interacting with the

12:44

people around us, those kinds of activities

12:46

are going to have a more

12:49

negative impact. You know, I'm

12:51

really curious to know, because

12:53

we often talk about how other

12:55

people inappropriately use their phone

12:57

or they're on screens too much.

13:00

But how do people feel about their

13:02

own use of screens and their

13:04

own time on the phone? Do they

13:06

think, yeah, I probably am on

13:08

it too much, but... Or do they

13:10

think, no, I've got this under

13:13

control. It's other people who have

13:15

the problem. How do

13:17

people feel about their own...

13:19

in this? That's a good

13:21

question. My sense from the

13:23

research is that there's certainly a good

13:25

portion of people, I think probably

13:27

the majority of people who feel like

13:29

they spend too much time. on

13:31

their screens. I think that that's

13:34

a pretty common experience. Of course, there are plenty

13:36

of people out there who feel good about

13:38

their screen use. But

13:40

I do think it's common

13:42

for people to feel like they

13:44

are spending too much time

13:46

and to, you know, not be

13:48

happy about that. And yet,

13:50

probably don't do much to remedy

13:52

a concern that they admit

13:54

they have. Yeah. Yeah, you

13:56

know, I think that part of what makes

13:59

us so challenging is that you

14:01

know, the screens that we're using right

14:03

now, phones and particular

14:05

smartphones, in many

14:07

cases the apps we're using on

14:10

those smartphones, are really designed to

14:12

attract our attention, like to be

14:14

hard to put down. We

14:17

know that there are features

14:19

of our devices like notifications, which

14:22

sort of ping and remind us to come

14:24

back to them. Or if we're on social

14:26

media, something like an endless scroll where there's

14:28

a social media feed, there's no end to

14:30

the feed, and so it makes us just

14:32

want to keep going. These

14:35

kinds of things really make it

14:37

so that we are inclined to

14:39

use our devices more. I

14:41

want to ask you if you think that we're

14:43

at the point now where phones

14:45

screens that are becoming, I

14:47

don't know, a crutch or

14:49

a habit, maybe. I'm speaking

14:52

with Jackie Neesey. She is

14:54

a psychologist and assistant professor

14:56

at Brown University, and she

14:58

writes the weekly newsletter, Technosapiens.

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buy. So

17:10

Jackie, it does seem to me

17:12

that especially with young people that

17:14

picking up their phone is a

17:16

habit. It's like they can't not

17:18

do it. Go to a doctor's

17:20

office and people are in the

17:23

waiting room. And I actually went

17:25

to a doctor not long ago

17:27

and was struck by this woman

17:29

who was sitting there reading a

17:31

real book. And I thought, wow,

17:33

look at her. That's so rare.

17:35

But in the old days, doctors

17:38

used to put magazines in their

17:40

waiting rooms because that's what people did

17:42

to pass the time. Now

17:44

it's just habit. You sit down, you

17:46

whip out your phone, and you stare

17:48

at it until they call your name.

17:51

Yeah, I think a lot of our

17:54

use is really, yeah, as you're saying,

17:56

really habitual, really sort of

17:58

mindless. It's not necessarily a choice

18:00

we're making always to pick up our

18:02

phone or to do a certain

18:04

activity on our phone. It's really

18:06

more that it's just automatic at this

18:08

point. We've sort of gotten in the

18:10

habit of using it a certain way.

18:13

That's one reason why I think that You

18:16

know, one thing, one first

18:18

step we can take to try

18:20

to improve our relationships with

18:22

our devices is to think about

18:24

using it more mindfully. So

18:26

less mind, less lee, more mindfully.

18:29

Meaning just taking a step back and

18:31

really trying to be aware of

18:33

the times when we reach for our

18:35

phones, you know, that sort of automatic

18:37

unlocking behavior that so many of us

18:39

do, and really trying to think

18:41

about when we're using it and why,

18:44

like what's the purpose. So

18:46

that's a good, probably a good place

18:48

to start, is to start thinking

18:50

about why you're using it. But what

18:52

else? Because that's a great idea,

18:54

but it's a little vague. It's like,

18:56

well, be more mindful. Yeah,

18:58

I know. But I'm sitting here and I have nothing

19:00

to do, so I'm going to whip out my phone. But

19:03

what's the plan? What's a

19:06

way to approach this? Yeah,

19:09

it's a great question. I think so

19:11

the first thing of course is to

19:13

be aware right to know like think

19:15

about you know when we're when we're

19:17

turning to our device, what exactly we're

19:19

doing on there and when that's feeling

19:21

like a problem to us, right? So

19:23

for many people, this is something like

19:25

they're happy to use their phone for

19:27

utilities, things like Google Maps to get

19:29

directions somewhere, or they want to be

19:32

able to make phone calls, things like

19:34

that that are more utilities, even like

19:36

they want to be able to listen

19:38

to a podcast like this one or

19:40

to music. So maybe those are

19:42

things that they want to be able to do

19:44

on their phone. They appreciate that. They don't feel

19:46

like it's getting in the way. But then there

19:48

are other activities they might start to recognize are

19:50

sort of the culprits for things that are not

19:52

making them feel as good. For

19:54

many people, that's things

19:56

like mindlessly scrolling social media

19:58

or maybe automatically reflexively

20:00

checking email or checking a

20:02

news app. Those kinds

20:04

of things tend to come up a lot. But

20:06

there are also a lot of tools that

20:08

you can use. You know, on

20:10

the iPhone there is the screen time

20:13

setting. You can go into your screen

20:15

time settings. You can

20:17

set time limits on certain

20:19

apps or you can

20:21

block apps at different times

20:23

of day using settings

20:25

like downtime. Android

20:27

devices also have a similar

20:29

feature through their digital well -being

20:31

tools. And then the

20:33

other thing I would say is just outside of

20:35

the sort of technical side of things, there

20:38

are things you can do just in

20:40

your day -to -day habits as well to

20:42

try to reduce your mindless use if

20:44

that's what you're looking to do. you

20:47

can try to set, you know,

20:49

phone -free like times of day,

20:51

whether that's meals or other times,

20:54

you can try to set phone -free

20:56

locations of your house. So certain

20:58

places where maybe you decide you're

21:00

not gonna use your phone, now

21:02

in certain rooms or maybe on the couch

21:04

or something like that. I think you can,

21:07

you know, talk to your family and friends

21:09

about what sort of the phone guidelines are

21:11

gonna be when you're spending time with each

21:13

other and that can go a long way.

21:15

My guess is, as

21:17

wonderful as those recommendations

21:19

are, people just don't

21:22

do them. It would

21:24

be very hard for me

21:26

to imagine to alter

21:28

my use using those suggestions

21:30

you just made. I'll

21:33

just take care of it

21:35

myself. And I imagine most people

21:37

don't follow those recommendations. People

21:40

do find it very hard to do

21:42

this kind of thing. So

21:44

in many of the studies that

21:46

ask people to reduce their use

21:48

of their phones or of social

21:50

media, the compliance is somewhat low,

21:52

meaning that it's hard to get

21:55

people to do this. It's

21:57

just tricky for a lot of

21:59

people. But in most

22:01

cases, they do find that when people

22:03

stick to it, when people do

22:05

it, they do

22:07

end up reporting improvements

22:09

in mood and well -being

22:12

and other factors. So

22:14

it can certainly make a

22:16

difference. The other

22:18

thing I would note that

22:20

can make a big difference

22:22

in terms of well -being

22:24

is trying to reduce phone

22:26

use around sleep. We

22:28

know that our device use can

22:30

really interfere with sleep when it's

22:32

keeping us awake at night. One

22:35

thing that seems very simple but can

22:37

make a big difference is charging phones

22:39

outside of the bedroom when you go

22:41

to sleep. And there is some evidence

22:43

that that can improve both the length

22:45

and the quality of people's sleep. Even

22:48

though you're not on it, it's just not

22:50

in the room so you can't. What

22:53

is that? Well,

22:55

I think when it's in the room, the

22:57

problem is that there's too much temptation for many

23:00

people to grab it. Or

23:02

maybe it's making noises in the middle of the

23:04

night that's waking you up. Or

23:06

if you can't fall asleep or you wake up in

23:08

the middle of the night, you reflexively go to

23:10

check it and then that keeps you awake longer. So

23:13

sort of having it out of sight, out

23:15

of mind can make a big difference. Well,

23:17

one of the big concerns

23:19

about screen time that you

23:21

hear was probably the first

23:23

big concern is about kids

23:25

and video games and all

23:27

of that. What does

23:30

the research say about all

23:32

that? Is it horrible or

23:34

not or what? Yeah,

23:36

so with video games, I

23:38

think that where the research

23:40

stands right now is that,

23:43

unsurprisingly, it depends, right?

23:45

It depends on... the kids

23:47

are. Kids are affected in

23:49

very different ways when they're

23:51

using video games. It

23:53

depends on what exactly is happening

23:55

in those video games. Generally,

23:57

you know, there was a

23:59

big concern for a while about

24:02

violence in video games. Generally,

24:04

the research does not support any

24:06

long -term links between playing violent

24:08

video games and, you know,

24:10

violent or aggressive outcomes in the

24:13

long term. So

24:15

some of that concern I think

24:17

has been somewhat overblown. That

24:19

said, I think there's good reason

24:21

for parents to be aware of the

24:23

kinds of things that their kids

24:25

are being exposed to in video games.

24:27

Here's something I think a lot

24:29

of people wonder about, because for decades,

24:31

people have gone to bed, watched

24:33

TV, and then gone to sleep. I

24:36

haven't heard a whole lot about

24:39

that being a problem. But there's

24:41

a lot of caution about looking

24:43

at a screen like a phone

24:45

or a tablet before bed that

24:47

that screws up your sleep. What's

24:49

the difference between the TV and

24:52

the screen, the computer screen? Yeah,

24:54

so I think in terms

24:56

of the actual technology like the

24:58

and the effects there's nothing

25:00

specific about a phone or a

25:03

tablet that's Inherently worse than

25:05

a TV right like it's still

25:07

a screen that's being watched

25:09

and and that's it I think

25:11

the you know practically there

25:13

there are some differences so with

25:15

a tablet or a phone

25:17

Obviously, it's you're not having the

25:19

same experience of with the

25:22

TV you turn it off And

25:24

it's off. And that's sort of it. And

25:26

then you get up and you walk away. With

25:29

a tablet or a phone, of

25:31

course, it often comes with you. And

25:34

so that makes it just a

25:36

different experience in terms of the ease

25:38

of putting it away, of stopping

25:40

to use it. the activities that you

25:42

do on a phone versus or

25:44

a tablet versus a TV also sometimes

25:46

differ you know so you might

25:49

be using more social media or other

25:51

apps on a phone versus on

25:53

a TV maybe you're watching more more

25:55

shows and you know with it

25:57

with a TV show it to have

25:59

more of a a definitive endpoint,

26:01

right, like an episode ends and that's

26:04

kind of the end versus when

26:06

you're scrolling on social media, it

26:08

sort of can continue on forever. Well,

26:11

it's a topic that is the

26:13

subject of a lot of conversation

26:15

and concern, maybe especially for parents,

26:18

but it's a topic I think

26:20

that everyone's concerned about how much

26:22

time we're spending on screens and

26:24

what we're not doing because we're

26:26

spending so much time on screens. Jackie

26:29

Nisi has been my guest.

26:31

She's a psychologist, an assistant

26:33

professor at Brown University, and

26:35

she writes a popular weekly

26:37

newsletter called Technosapiens. And

26:39

if you'd like more information to that,

26:42

there's a link to Technosapiens in the

26:44

show notes for this episode. Jackie,

26:46

thank you for coming on and talking about

26:48

this. All right. Thank you so much,

26:50

Mike. I am a

26:52

food lover. I love to cook.

26:54

I've collected probably a hundred cookbooks over

26:57

the years. Good food is

26:59

important to me. But some days I can't

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28:29

We talked quite a bit about health

28:31

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28:35

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your order of Mitopure. Go

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to Timeline. How

30:08

the human body works

30:10

is so fascinating and so

30:12

complicated from how we

30:14

use food for fuel, how

30:16

and why we age

30:19

and can't live forever, why

30:21

we sleep, why we have

30:23

to sleep, Yet sleep leaves us

30:25

vulnerable to so many things. How

30:28

our immune system keeps us

30:30

alive and how evolution changes

30:33

us ever so slowly. Here

30:35

to explain some of these intricate

30:37

bodily systems and how we can

30:39

keep them working smoothly is Dr.

30:41

Dara Ennis. He is a scientist

30:44

and researcher who has worked at

30:46

both the University of Oxford and

30:48

the University of Glasgow. He is

30:50

author of a book called The

30:52

Body, 10 Things You Should Know.

30:55

Hi, Dara. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Oh,

30:58

thanks very much for having me. So

31:00

the human body, our bodies, like

31:02

every other living thing, gets

31:05

older and ultimately

31:07

dies. From

31:09

a scientific point of view, Why

31:11

must that be? Do we

31:13

know why that is? Because

31:16

it seems like we certainly

31:18

live longer than we used to,

31:20

but ultimately, we die. Well,

31:23

the void we age is certainly a

31:25

question with an answer. You know,

31:27

there's very deep rooted ways that our

31:29

cells and the cells of all

31:31

living things work that makes them age.

31:34

And one of the main things as,

31:36

you know, anybody who works on

31:38

aging will understand is that our DNA,

31:40

the code that makes us what

31:42

we are and the instructions for us

31:44

being alive, has a lifespan in

31:46

and of itself. So, you

31:48

know, every high school student knows

31:50

that DNA gets copied, but what they

31:53

don't realise is every time it

31:55

gets copied, that copy is only a

31:57

tiny fraction smaller than the original.

31:59

And eventually it's too small and it

32:01

just goes away, you know, so

32:03

that in itself. is

32:05

a limit. It's a ticking clock and there's nothing

32:07

we can do about it. So yeah, that's a

32:09

bit of a problem for people who want to

32:11

live forever, I'm afraid. But

32:13

even people who get older and

32:15

die from diseases that are

32:17

normally associated with old age die

32:19

at different ages. Some people

32:21

die in their 70s or their

32:23

80s or 90s and some

32:25

people make it even longer than

32:27

that. So there is a

32:29

clock because ultimately nobody gets any

32:31

older than whatever the maximum

32:33

age is, but there is a

32:35

clock. Well,

32:37

it's a maximum clock. So

32:40

most people don't reach that.

32:42

That isn't the sort of critical

32:44

factor in what ends up,

32:46

you know, finishing us off, essentially.

32:48

So we'll all get old

32:50

and we'll all age. But there

32:52

are other factors that will

32:55

damage ourselves, damage our DNA, you

32:57

know, exposure to sunlight

32:59

makes our skin look

33:02

older. other

33:04

lifestyle choices, what we eat, what we

33:06

do, how much exercise we take,

33:08

how happy we are, how stressed we

33:10

are. So it can even

33:12

be a case of you can sort

33:14

of think yourself young and that is

33:16

literally going to be physiologically true because

33:18

stress responses age ourselves. And

33:20

aged cells go into a state called senescence,

33:22

which is effectively where they shut down and

33:24

start to die off. And that's contagious. Other

33:26

cells around it can pick it up. And

33:29

the stress response is a big factor

33:31

in senescence. So if you're a very

33:33

stressed out person with a bad lifestyle, you're

33:35

going to age a lot quicker than

33:38

someone who's just happy -go -lucky and looks

33:40

after themselves. So you can maximize your chances

33:42

of being younger for longer, but not

33:44

forever. It's never forever, is

33:46

it? Unfortunately, no.

33:48

No. So let's talk

33:50

about blood and how blood

33:52

gets circulated all throughout the

33:55

body and how that all

33:57

works. Well, it's driven

33:59

obviously by the heart, but

34:01

our blood vessels are quite

34:03

elastic and they swell and

34:05

shrink as the pulse rate

34:07

from your heart comes. So

34:10

that elastic motion helps maintain blood

34:12

pressure. And it's the pressure of the

34:14

system that keeps it all moving. So

34:16

if you have a very closely pressurized system

34:19

and the pump, it means that it can

34:21

reach right to the end of these tiny

34:23

capillaries that are potentially a couple of meters

34:25

away, or a meter and a bit away

34:27

from your heart. And yeah, it's

34:29

just it's a constant pressurized system with

34:31

a constant flow. It's astonishingly efficient considering it's

34:33

driven by, you know, a lump of

34:35

muscle about the size of our fists. That

34:37

doesn't make very much noise. If

34:40

you ever see how much

34:42

noise and energy a water pump

34:44

uses to pump something that

34:46

long, it's massively more efficient. Evolution

34:48

beats engineering every time. So

34:51

it seems like a big question,

34:53

but since you tackle it, this

34:55

whole idea of about getting and

34:58

using energy, how food becomes energy,

35:00

how we spend energy. I

35:02

never really, I get that it

35:05

happens, but I'm not sure I have

35:07

any idea how it happens. The

35:09

main thing to remember is that, you

35:12

know, by the laws of physics, you can't

35:14

make energy. You just change its form.

35:16

That's all you do. You just mess about

35:18

with the structure of it. So energy

35:20

can't be made. It can't be destroyed. So

35:22

we take the energy from chemical bonds

35:24

in our food and we just put it

35:26

into a system that our cells can

35:28

use. And it's really, really clever and massively

35:31

efficient how it does so. And

35:33

it's largely driven by mitochondria,

35:35

which are small organelles in

35:37

our cells. And

35:39

the fun thing is most scientists

35:41

think that they were originally independent

35:43

organisms way back in our evolution

35:45

when we were like single cells

35:47

that were eaten, essentially, but survived.

35:49

And because they were so good

35:51

at providing energy, they become part

35:53

of our setup. So they're an

35:55

alien life form that over tens

35:58

of millions of years has just

36:00

come along with living animals and

36:02

helps them provide their energy. So

36:04

that massively makes it more efficient.

36:06

And yeah, it's just, it's a series

36:08

of different reactions that make food

36:10

energy into the energy that ourselves can

36:12

use. And it's amazing. It's astounding,

36:14

to be honest. So you've

36:17

mentioned a few times how, you know,

36:19

this is amazing and this is

36:21

really efficient and And my guess is

36:23

that the systems get that way

36:25

over time through evolution. But I don't

36:27

know that we really understand. I

36:30

don't think evolution works the way people think

36:32

it does. No, no,

36:34

I do quite a lot of, you know, public

36:36

events and things. And people ask me science

36:38

questions and I love that. I really do because

36:40

it's my real passion. But a

36:42

lot of people say things like,

36:44

oh, you know, in 10 ,000 years

36:46

will we have much longer fingers because

36:48

we type and that's how evolution

36:50

works. And it really isn't. Evolution only

36:53

works if something makes you more

36:55

likely to survive and have children. Those

36:57

two things have to be together. So

37:00

if it doesn't make you more

37:02

likely to reproduce, then

37:04

evolution throws it away. And

37:06

that's it. And it's random,

37:08

completely random. But over enough

37:10

time, it will eventually, you know, get us

37:12

from one of those single celled organisms

37:14

to the one that can get the bus

37:16

to work. but the amount

37:19

of time is absolutely immense. You're talking

37:21

tens or possibly even over hundreds

37:23

of millions of years. Well,

37:25

that phrase you used about

37:28

evolution throws it away. I think

37:30

that's where people get confused

37:32

that it isn't like one morning

37:34

the heavens say, well,

37:36

we're not going to need a tail anymore, so

37:38

let's just knock that off because we don't

37:40

need that. It doesn't work

37:42

that way. Very

37:45

rarely like you will occasionally get

37:47

a very bizarre mutation that will

37:49

completely change an animal will change

37:51

its color or it will do

37:53

something really really weird to it

37:55

but yes most of the time

37:57

the change is extremely gradual and

37:59

quite often. It's because

38:01

there's a cost to everything so

38:03

that having any part of

38:05

your body or doing any action

38:07

or anything producing anything costs. The

38:10

cells in your body something you know you have

38:12

to make the proteins you have to do all

38:14

of this kind of thing or there is a

38:16

cost is in it makes you more likely that

38:18

another animal will eat you or it makes you

38:20

less likely to reproduce and if. You're

38:22

in a competitive environment and you

38:24

as an animal change color you

38:26

know you get a red stripe

38:28

or something and suddenly. That

38:30

means the females are no longer interested in you, they're not

38:32

going to mate with you because you've got this red stripe.

38:35

That's never going to be passed on because

38:37

you don't reproduce and the mutation disappears

38:39

and it's just literally thrown away from the

38:41

population. But if it's the other

38:43

way and the red stripe suddenly means all

38:45

the females are interested in you then gradually

38:47

over time you'll speciate so you'll become the

38:49

red striped version of your animal and you'll

38:52

produce lots and lots of children. And

38:54

that's it. It's purely this is the

38:56

bit that people don't understand. It's it's not

38:58

about growing bigger teeth to fight off

39:00

the predators. It's just about are you going

39:02

to survive long enough to pass those

39:04

genes on? And they're kind

39:06

of like, you know,

39:08

memes or viral things on the internet, you know,

39:10

it doesn't necessarily have to be good. It

39:12

doesn't necessarily have to be brilliant. It just has

39:14

to be popular. And that's it. Why

39:17

do we sleep? Oh,

39:19

that's a weird one, isn't

39:21

it? So by any logical sense

39:24

anything that you think about an

39:26

animal going to sleep is a

39:28

terrible idea. Like it's so bad

39:30

for it. It makes you completely

39:32

vulnerable. And you

39:34

would think that evolution of all

39:36

things this really strict, you know,

39:38

filter that takes away anything that's

39:40

dangerous will get rid of sleep,

39:42

but it just can't. It seems

39:44

to be deeply inbuilt into not

39:47

just humans, but like almost all

39:49

animals like flies sleep, fish sleep. Dolphins

39:51

and whales sleep, even though they're like they

39:53

have to, you know, breathe and all this kind

39:55

of thing underwater. And it

39:57

seems so inbuilt to how our nervous

40:00

system specifically work that we can't get

40:02

rid of it. So the cost of

40:04

getting rid of it is way too

40:06

high. And if you ever

40:08

meet someone who sleep deprived, you

40:10

very quickly realize why, because it just

40:12

messes with us so badly. So

40:15

it must do something really, really

40:17

special for us to devote that

40:19

much of our life. To it.

40:21

Oh, it absolutely does. So our brain

40:23

function completely relies on sleep. So

40:25

we can't get completely to the bottom

40:28

of this very easily because the

40:30

ethical considerations of doing sleep deprivation studies

40:32

means that they very rarely go

40:34

past two or three days without sleep

40:36

because it's so bad for you.

40:38

But in the ones that they have

40:40

done are ones where people have

40:42

had medical problems that kept them awake.

40:45

You lose all critical

40:47

function. Your brain stops

40:49

working completely. It's almost like you've

40:51

been drinking. You know, it's that

40:54

kind of level of loss of

40:56

motor control. You become emotionally problematic.

40:58

You start overeating because your hormone

41:00

system stopped working properly. And

41:02

a really key thing as well

41:04

is that your brain washes itself at

41:06

night time. So there's

41:09

been studies where they've watched people

41:11

when they're going to sleep

41:13

through MRIs and cat scanners

41:15

and things and they've seen pulses

41:17

of cerebrospinal fluid going over the

41:19

brain during sleep and they really

41:21

think that this downtime this maintenance

41:23

time of sleep helps remove you

41:25

know bad things for your brain

41:27

talks and build up but especially

41:30

things like misfolded proteins so misfolded

41:32

proteins can lead to Parkinson's disease

41:34

to dementia and all sorts of

41:36

other neurological problems and without sleep

41:38

it's not able to do that

41:40

because our brain It's just

41:42

so busy all of the time when we're

41:44

awake it's always got so much to

41:46

do that it can't have maintenance so effectively

41:48

sleep is brain maintenance mode you need

41:50

to let the janitors in to clean up.

41:53

So here's it i'm so glad you tackle

41:55

this in your book because. How

41:58

many times have we heard about

42:00

how the body defends itself that

42:02

you have an immune system in

42:04

it and it. But nobody knows

42:06

what that means or how it

42:08

works. It's just, well, you

42:10

know, I didn't get a cold and

42:12

he did because my body defended itself.

42:14

But how? I don't know what that

42:16

means. Yeah, I think a

42:18

lot of people, especially

42:20

since the pandemic, got

42:23

a very skewed and peripheral idea of

42:25

what the immune system is and what

42:27

it does because it was kind of

42:29

covered on the news, but never in

42:31

depth. i've always used analogies

42:33

to explain things to people i think

42:35

a great way to look at it

42:37

is like a security system with guards

42:39

and you've got two different systems one

42:41

is urinate system which just works away

42:44

on its own it's if it finds

42:46

anything foreign it'll attack it and it'll

42:48

run a fever and it will provoke

42:50

that kind of immune response very very

42:52

quickly. But then you've got

42:54

your adaptive immune system, which is

42:56

why we become immune to things. So

42:58

this is if it sees something

43:00

it recognizes from before, it

43:03

will instantly find it and attack

43:05

it. It's way more efficient, but you

43:07

have to have been exposed to

43:09

it before. And that's the whole reason

43:11

why vaccines work is because vaccines

43:13

prime that innate system. It's kind

43:15

of like giving your security guards a wanted posting

43:17

on if this guy comes along, you make sure

43:19

you catch them real quick. And A

43:21

lot of people don't understand how it works.

43:24

There's a lot of disinformation out there because there's

43:26

a lot of money to be made trying

43:28

to tell people that they can not catch a

43:30

common cold if they take this supplement and

43:32

things, but most of it's nonsense. But

43:34

is it your immune system when you

43:36

cut yourself and the cut heals? It's

43:39

a mixture. So your skin

43:41

is... of your best defenses, actually,

43:43

we're constantly bombarded by viruses

43:45

and bacteria and funguses and people

43:48

don't realize this because they're

43:50

so small and almost all of

43:52

them land on your skin

43:54

and die. You know, if

43:56

you're a scientist and you're doing microbiology, you

43:58

have to, you know, sterilize everything and

44:00

have a flow of sterile air or you

44:02

have to have a Bunsen burner to

44:04

to. You make the air

44:06

above your station rise up and

44:08

keep all of the spores and all

44:10

the bacteria off it because they're

44:13

everywhere. They're ubiquitous and if you cut

44:15

yourself you open the gates, you

44:17

know, so your immune system makes sure

44:19

it doesn't get infected and then

44:21

your body repairs it in a different

44:23

way. So it's not your immune

44:25

system fixing the cut but it's making

44:28

sure that nothing gets into that

44:30

cut that will make it infected and

44:32

that's way more important to be

44:34

honest because infections until relatively recently in

44:36

human sort of technology an infection

44:38

like that could kill you because once

44:40

they're in that's when these guys

44:43

the bacteria and things cause such trouble.

44:46

But going back to like catching

44:48

a cold there are some people

44:50

who seem to get sicker more

44:52

often than others exposed to more

44:54

or less the same things and

44:56

you know my wife who works

44:58

in a hospital She never gets

45:00

sick and and so the assumption is what

45:02

she doesn't get sick because she's been exposed

45:04

to so many. Illnesses

45:06

that she's built up this immunity

45:08

to it I don't know if that's

45:10

true but she never gets sick. Part

45:14

of it is so having

45:16

an exposure and on a

45:18

constant basis boost your immune

45:20

system your your adaptive immune

45:22

system recognizes more pathogens you're

45:24

more primed to do it

45:26

but. I know this is

45:28

going to sound a little gross, but a

45:30

very large part of the reason why

45:32

healthcare professionals don't get sick is because they

45:34

washed their hands properly. You

45:36

know, if you're working in a healthcare

45:38

environment, you're probably very carefully washing your hands

45:41

for a minute or two minutes at

45:43

a time, maybe 20 times a day. That's

45:45

a very large reason why we get sick is

45:47

because we pick up things or we shake hands

45:49

with someone or we touch the door handle and

45:52

then we rub our eyes or we pick something

45:54

out of our teeth and it gets into our

45:56

body and it escapes. But yeah,

45:58

there's a little bit of a boosted immune system

46:00

to it, but some of it's just good practice. What's

46:02

one thing about the body that you

46:05

think people maybe don't understand as well

46:07

as they should, or there's a lot

46:09

of misinformation about it. I mean, you're

46:11

out speaking to people all the time.

46:13

What is it you think, if anything,

46:15

there is confusion about? I

46:17

think one thing that a

46:20

lot of people get wrong

46:22

is nutrition. There

46:24

is so much commercial pressure

46:26

from companies who are trying

46:28

to sell what are considered

46:30

healthy food, and a lot

46:32

of people don't understand. the

46:34

genuine need for a healthy diet

46:36

to keep yourself healthy. And they

46:38

don't understand that a lot of

46:40

the things, the supplements they've been,

46:42

they're being sold or, you know,

46:44

the miracle food thing, a lot

46:47

of it is nonsense or it's

46:49

marginal at best. So you

46:51

have people who, you know, will take

46:53

some miracle, you know, powdered seaweed supplement,

46:55

but then we'll eat nothing but fast

46:57

food and they're wondering why they're not

46:59

like doing well. The

47:01

overriding dietary advice

47:03

since probably for a

47:05

century is to eat a wide

47:07

varied balanced diet that's largely based

47:10

on fruit and vegetables, fresh fruit

47:12

and vegetables. And I don't

47:14

know if they did it in the US, but

47:16

in the UK and Ireland, they said five portions a

47:18

day. That's what they said. If you have five

47:20

portions of fresh fruit and veg a day, that's a

47:22

good start. It was actually meant to

47:24

be 10, but they realized if they

47:26

told people they had to eat 10 different fruits and

47:28

vegetables a day, they would just say, no, we're

47:30

just going to give up. So five is kind of

47:32

the bare minimum. And almost

47:34

nobody eats five portions of fresh

47:36

fruit and veg a day.

47:38

Yeah, nobody does. Who does? Yeah,

47:41

nobody does. But if you really genuinely

47:43

want to have a healthy diet, it's

47:45

eat almost no processed food and almost

47:47

everything is processed food, which is a

47:49

big problem. But base it

47:51

on fresh fruit and veg and

47:53

cook things yourself from scratch where

47:55

possible. But that's not achievable in

47:57

the modern world, unfortunately. I

48:00

wish there was some fun way of

48:02

saying a healthy diet, but unfortunately healthy

48:04

diets are what doctors have been telling

48:06

us for since like the 1920s. And

48:10

lastly, what happens when

48:12

we die? So this

48:14

is one I. Wanted to do and

48:16

I wasn't sure that you know people

48:18

would want to read it, but it's

48:20

actually turned out to be great It's

48:22

been very popular. Um And I don't

48:24

mean this in a spiritual way if

48:26

anybody's thinking that way This is what

48:28

happens to your body when you die

48:31

because a lot of people there's big

48:33

taboos about death And you know, we

48:35

we like to pretend that things don't

48:37

happen But our bodies to go away.

48:39

They're got they're gone fairly soon unless

48:41

you're in very specific circumstances within a

48:43

few decades. There's only slight

48:45

remains of bone some hair and

48:47

you know some fillings or if

48:49

you've got a metal implant or

48:51

something that's all that's left and

48:54

that process is I think fascinating

48:56

you know what happens when you

48:58

stop being a person and you

49:00

suddenly become a body literally a

49:02

body and. I think

49:04

a lot of people don't realize what

49:06

does happen to your body and. Some of

49:08

the fun things well fun interesting things

49:10

are that not all of your cells will

49:12

die at the same rate so you

49:14

know your brain cells die almost straight away

49:16

because they need so much energy and

49:18

so much oxygen. But your

49:20

immune cells can last for days and days

49:22

you could have a dead body and

49:24

you'd have little white blood cells four or

49:26

five days later just drifting around and

49:29

not realizing that the body is dead because

49:31

well they're not sentient so they'll never

49:33

realize. But yeah I thought it

49:35

was it was important for people to. to

49:37

address this because I think we shy

49:39

away from it because it's a difficult subject.

49:42

Well, I know I've certainly learned a

49:44

lot and understand things about how the

49:46

human body functions that I didn't know

49:49

before. I've been talking with

49:51

Dr. Dara Ennis. He is a scientist and

49:53

researcher and author of the book, The

49:55

Body, 10 Things You Should Know. There's a link

49:57

to that book at Amazon in the show notes.

50:00

Dara, thanks for coming on and talking about this.

50:03

Well, thanks very much for having me, Mike. was

50:05

brilliant talking to you. I really enjoyed it. Of

50:09

course, you know that talking

50:11

on a cell phone when you're

50:13

driving is a bad idea

50:15

because it's very distracting. But

50:18

it turns out that driving a

50:20

car while your passengers are talking

50:22

on a cell phone is also

50:24

very distracting. In fact,

50:26

listening to anybody talk on a

50:28

cell phone is distracting because you're

50:30

only hearing half of the conversation.

50:32

It's called a half a log

50:34

and it reduces your cognitive function.

50:37

So for example, if you're driving

50:39

in your car and someone else

50:41

in the car is talking on

50:43

the phone, it's almost impossible to

50:45

tune it out. So your brain

50:48

is frantically trying to make sense

50:50

of a conversation where you're only

50:52

hearing half of it. The researchers

50:54

that did the study point out

50:56

that when we overhear a conversation

50:58

normally, we actively try to

51:00

predict how the conversation will go.

51:02

And when you only hear one

51:04

side of the conversation, your

51:06

brain has to work harder to do

51:08

what is, you know, pretty much impossible. So

51:11

with less of your brain available

51:13

to focus on driving, you're

51:15

more at risk for an accident, which

51:17

is a good reason for everyone in the

51:19

car not to talk on their phones. And

51:22

that is something you should know. Something

51:25

you should know is produced

51:27

by Jeffrey Haverson, Jennifer Brennan, and

51:29

our executive producer is Ken

51:31

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51:33

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51:38

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51:40

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