0:00

You're listening to to Song where musicians

0:02

take apart their songs take piece by

0:04

piece tell the story of how

0:06

they were made. the I'm Rishi of

0:08

how they made. I'm Rishikesh Hirway. This episode

0:11

This episode contains explicit language. Gracie

0:13

Abrams is a singer and Abrams is

0:15

a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She

0:18

started putting out music in 2020, and

0:20

and in June she she put out her

0:22

second album, The Secret of Us. of Us.

0:24

She was nominated for a Grammy for

0:26

Best New Artist, New and this year

0:29

she's up for another Grammy another Grammy for for

0:31

her collaboration with Taylor Swift. with Taylor for

0:33

this episode, I talked to Gracie about

0:35

her song, I about her I'm Sorry. You, I'm

0:37

It was produced by Aaron by Aaron Dessner at

0:39

Long Pond Studio New York, New it was co

0:41

-written with Audrey with Audrey Hobart. Coming up, up,

0:43

you'll hear the isolated tracks from the studio

0:45

recording, from but you also get to hear a

0:47

lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during

0:49

the writing process. I think it's

0:52

so nice to have these raw moments documented

0:54

because, as you'll hear, I they give you an

0:56

insight not just into the song, but into

0:58

the relationship that Gracie and her co -writer, hear,

1:00

they give you an insight not just

1:02

into the song, but into

1:04

the relationship that Gracie and

1:06

her co-writer Audrey have as

1:08

friends. Okay, I'm recording on

1:11

my side. We're recording as

1:13

well. Great. Ready? I'm a

1:15

very open book, so I'm

1:17

ready to get into all

1:19

of it. Let's start recording

1:21

on my side. We're recording as

1:23

well. Great. Ready? the very

1:25

open book, so I'm ready to get into all

1:28

of it. to Let's start at

1:30

the beginning. Do you happen to

1:32

remember the exact moment for this song

1:34

for the song first came to

1:36

you? Oh yeah, I had I

1:38

had just made a plan to

1:40

hang and talk with my

1:42

ex to write I used to write

1:44

lots of songs about. this

1:47

point, this point, was he already

1:49

your ex? it had it had been like

1:51

two years, like having never run

1:53

into each other, you know, each other, you

1:55

know, note, real communication.

1:57

I had just felt so much. much

2:00

even residual love, but just

2:02

like real love for somebody

2:04

who was so significant in

2:06

my life and such a

2:08

formative partner. And I think

2:10

having had a couple years

2:12

of space, there was more

2:14

room than ever for not

2:16

only like reflecting on all

2:18

that was, but also just

2:20

kind of fantasizing about a

2:22

world in which everything's cool

2:24

between us. Was there something

2:26

that prompted this conversation that

2:28

you were going to have

2:30

with your ex? Was there

2:32

an event or something? How

2:35

did it end up being

2:37

that you were going to

2:39

reconnect? We were both going

2:41

to be home around the

2:43

holidays and it wasn't some

2:45

dramatic thing, but it was

2:47

very significant for me to

2:49

reconnect at all. Audrey Hobart,

2:51

who's my roommate and dear

2:53

friend and co-writer on I

2:55

love you, I'm sorry, and

2:57

on a handful of other

2:59

songs on the album. She

3:01

and I were sitting outside

3:03

in our tiny courtyard situation

3:05

and I just had the

3:07

first line of the song

3:09

come into my head immediately

3:11

and it was one of

3:13

those moments where we were

3:15

like in the middle of

3:17

a conversation and I told

3:19

Audrey, hold on, ran inside

3:21

grabbed the guitar and that

3:23

was the start of it.

3:27

I just had two Augusts ago

3:29

in my head immediately with the

3:31

cords. There was something very nostalgic

3:33

about those cords and it was

3:36

around Christmas time because we had

3:38

our Christmas tree in the house

3:40

and I remember it feeling very

3:43

like holiday spirit charged through the

3:45

house which helped when kind of

3:47

being all like sappy. That

3:58

was all I had in my

4:00

head initially. I think there's a

4:02

huge chance if I had started

4:04

that by myself, I wouldn't have actually

4:06

ended up believing in it much. But

4:08

with Audrey Knight, it's like, I

4:10

remember after starting it, writing the first

4:13

bit, she was so like, fuck, yes,

4:15

like, let's chase it. She really

4:17

brought the energy when I was more

4:19

so just like nostalgic and a

4:21

little blue. Yeah, I find that a

4:24

lot of times I will throw an

4:26

idea away immediately after writing it,

4:28

but if I write with somebody else

4:30

and if they sing it back, then

4:33

something I'm like, oh, well, it's

4:35

nice when you sing it. And I

4:37

don't know what, is it a self-esteem?

4:39

I don't know, I think there

4:41

is something that will never not feel

4:44

slightly embarrassing or like cringe about

4:46

putting my feelings to song, like who

4:48

do I think I am even? But

4:51

having somebody else in the room

4:53

to back you, yeah, it makes a

4:55

huge difference. And especially when it's someone

4:57

who can say, I think that's

4:59

a good line, and what about this

5:02

for the next line? Totally. Find

5:04

someone to date. I just

5:06

think, and I'll be something

5:08

and find someone to date.

5:10

And that's just the way

5:12

like us. I'll be a

5:14

hell, find someone to day.

5:17

Yeah. I'll make it known

5:19

and find someone to date.

5:21

Ooh. Wait, write

5:23

that down. Who's saying ooh there? Audrey, I said I'll make

5:25

it no, and she goes ooh. That's what I mean. It's

5:27

like the nod of like, that's kind of funny. That's kind

5:29

of a thing. It's so funny to listen back. Like in

5:31

my head, there was never an alternative lyric to any of

5:33

these. I'm like, everything felt like it just came out. Yeah.

5:36

Can you tell me more about your relationship with Audrey? How

5:38

did you end up writing songs together? We met when we

5:40

were 10 years old and then went to middle school together

5:42

and we were on the same. to school

5:44

and so we'd sit with each

5:46

other and music was always

5:49

kind of the core of our

5:51

relationship. Like her mom is

5:53

like she's just like the coolest

5:55

voice to me and I

5:57

remember like growing up always hearing

5:59

her saying and being so

6:01

impressed that she could like harmonize

6:04

just like immediately and Audrey

6:06

kind of taught me how to

6:08

do that when we were

6:10

really little and I taught her

6:12

how to like hold a

6:14

melody when someone's like harmonizing we'd

6:17

sit on the bus and

6:19

just do that. And as we

6:21

grew up we never ever

6:23

even talked about writing music together

6:25

but when we moved in

6:27

together two years ago it just

6:29

started happening one day because

6:32

we kind of like riff off

6:34

of each other so much

6:36

but what she brings out in

6:38

me is a kind of

6:40

self -assuredness and confidence. It was

6:42

a side of my personality that

6:44

I have struggled to infuse

6:47

into my music and I was

6:49

really grateful to her for

6:51

that specifically. And how different is

6:53

your songwriting conversation from your

6:55

regular conversation? It's not all that

6:57

different. I think what's really

7:00

cool about writing with somebody that

7:02

you do know so well,

7:04

no one's feelings are getting hurt

7:06

so it's very blunt and

7:08

very fast as a result. We're

7:11

oftentimes going with the line that

7:13

makes us laugh the hardest and

7:15

that's what kept it feeling so

7:18

conversational the whole time as we

7:20

were really just like making each

7:22

other laugh in the face of

7:24

big uncomfortable new adult feelings. But

7:26

I think it's funny like even

7:28

you know for this when I

7:31

was listening back to our voice

7:33

memos there are so many moments

7:35

where we will say the same

7:37

thing at the same time. That

7:39

doesn't mean we always land on

7:41

that or keep it but I

7:44

yeah I think something happens cognitively

7:46

with the two of us where

7:48

we are on the same page

7:50

often. Like

7:54

and you won't be here

7:56

but that's okay like or like

7:58

and I might. I

8:00

I might not feel

8:02

real real, like maybe, like... Yeah. Yeah.

8:04

I I I I literally

8:06

love it. might not

8:08

feel real. But it's okay.

8:10

But it's okay. it's okay. But

8:12

it's okay. Yeah, One of the

8:15

things I love of of the voice memos

8:17

you sent me, in a little exchange between

8:19

you and Audrey. you sent

8:21

me, there's a

8:23

little exchange between

8:25

you and Audrey

8:28

that's like... That's

8:30

sick. And it's

8:32

real. it's real. it's

8:34

real. about funny. was you

8:36

tell me about that? What was the The part

8:38

of that? The real part was

8:40

My family, my family is from

8:43

Maine and my grandparents live

8:45

on a lake in Maine that

8:47

I have grown up. It's

8:49

just like a very significant place

8:51

in my life and anybody

8:53

who knows me knows that that

8:55

is where I run away

8:57

to away I think about everything

8:59

too, too hard. Can

9:07

I ask you more about the sense

9:10

of humor between you two? Yeah. Because

9:12

it's ask you more about the sense

9:14

of humor between you two? but it's hard it's

9:16

so much easier to laugh with a

9:18

friend, but it's hard to laugh just

9:20

by yourself. And especially if you're trying

9:22

to write a song that is emotionally

9:24

true, might be hard to squeeze jokes

9:26

into funny. Is that are funny. of thing Is

9:28

this the sort of thing that can

9:31

only emerge in that context with with Audrey?

9:33

The thing, one of the things that's so

9:35

magical about Audrey so magical I think she is

9:37

somebody that, think she is in the greatest

9:39

way, talks to herself a lot, makes

9:41

herself laugh a lot. herself laugh a bring

9:43

less of that to the table when

9:45

I'm by myself. to the I think it's

9:47

one of the things that I've always

9:49

valued about I think it's friendship is that I've

9:51

the face of about our tough feelings. that

9:54

in the face never not laughing

9:56

somewhere. not laughing I'd love to

9:58

ask you about ask you about the bridge. this

10:00

song because it feels so

10:02

different from the verse and

10:04

the chorus. I think most

10:06

of the bridges on this

10:09

album are like the kind

10:11

of manic thought perspective kind

10:13

of like just going off

10:15

like rattling quite quickly and

10:17

I definitely wanted like rhythmically

10:19

a change to happen. I

10:21

was a tick it is

10:23

what it is a habit

10:25

to kick. Uh, a habit

10:27

to kick an age old

10:29

curse. Mm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-

10:37

When I'm writing lyrics and recording a

10:39

voice memo, it's like so rarely actually

10:42

in a speaking voice or a singing

10:44

voice, it's like really ugly, horrible, like

10:46

in between like mumbling where I'm not

10:49

even enunciating. I think it's like a

10:51

mouth feel thing maybe that I do

10:53

that. I don't know what the fuck.

10:56

So horrible. What do you mean a

10:58

mouth feel thing? Just like how a

11:00

word like sort of sits in your

11:02

mouth. It's stupid,

11:05

but I'm always so embarrassed. I

11:07

like... No, I like that. I

11:09

think you're right. I see what

11:12

you're saying. You're being very generous

11:14

that you're saying, you know what

11:16

I mean. I think, because you

11:19

don't just have to consider what

11:21

the word means and how it

11:23

relates to whatever the lyric is

11:26

before, but you have to think

11:28

about the actual... I think mouth

11:30

feel is the right word. Right?

11:33

Yeah. So there's another voice memo

11:35

that I have from you that

11:37

is basically a demo of the

11:40

whole song. And it's not just

11:42

you singing, it's you and Audrey

11:45

both singing? Yes. Okay,

11:51

so that moment where at

11:54

the end of the bridge

11:56

she goes up to wrong

11:58

again, how much thought and

12:01

conversation had gone into that,

12:03

or was that? something that

12:05

she just did. Pureriff. Really?

12:08

Yeah, literally, yeah. This was

12:10

the first time that I

12:12

was writing with a friend

12:15

who has a fucking amazing

12:17

voice, whose personality is more

12:19

extroverted than mine is when

12:22

I'm alone, who like, when

12:24

we are recording, will go

12:26

off like she did in

12:29

this voice memo. And that,

12:31

you know, inspires me and

12:33

I had not been somebody.

12:36

that like even considered being

12:38

more extroverted with my vocals.

12:40

Wrong again, wrong again! Wrong

12:43

again! The way! Life goes,

12:45

joy riding down, Our road

12:47

lay on the horn To

12:50

prove that it haunts me!

12:52

I love you, I'm sorry,

12:55

the way Life goes, I

12:57

wanna speak in code. My

13:03

conversation with Gracie Abrams continues after

13:06

this. This episode is brought to

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you by Progressive Insurance. Do

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of the book today or learn

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more at readright-own.com. So after you

14:19

finished writing the song, how did

14:21

you end up working with Aaron

14:24

Dessner as the producer? I

14:26

had been a fan of the national

14:28

since I was like 11 years old,

14:31

like as soon as I got an

14:33

iPod, I was listening to the national

14:35

all the time. And I think it

14:38

was like kind of that pre-teen and

14:40

then like teen angst, you know, or

14:42

their sad dad thing, like that to

14:45

me. As a 12-year-old girl, yeah, like

14:47

really hit. So I was a huge

14:49

fan for years and years and years.

14:55

Who's playing this guitar part? Aaron

14:57

is. I'm curious why that is,

14:59

because you play the guitar in

15:01

the demo, so why did you

15:03

have him play the guitar part?

15:05

He's a fucking genius at guitar.

15:07

He is so good, you know,

15:09

for the sake of time, which

15:11

we didn't have much of. I

15:13

was like, you'll nail this the

15:15

first time. And then we can

15:17

build the rest of the world.

15:19

I knew I wanted it to

15:21

stay on acoustic guitar. I knew

15:23

I wanted lap steel. I

15:31

wanted it

15:34

to feel

15:37

full and

15:40

warm. came

15:43

to this

15:46

person with

15:49

feelings that

15:52

were real

15:55

it didn't

15:58

align with

16:00

maybe what

16:03

they wanted

16:06

or expected

16:10

They drove away. I stayed at

16:12

home. And then I had this

16:14

petty line in the song. We're

16:17

not together. You go alone to

16:19

all these events, to all these

16:21

dinners, all these things. You're primed

16:24

for this kind of group of

16:26

people, this environment. You're wildly charming.

16:28

It works. But like, I'm over

16:31

here judging it like a dick.

16:33

Now you go alone, charm all

16:35

the people you train for, you

16:38

mean well, but aim low. That's

16:40

a great, vicious line. You mean

16:42

well, but aim low? It's brutal.

16:45

That's fucked up. That's the petty

16:47

part. And then, immediately I was

16:49

just like, okay, it would be

16:52

nice if we can make this

16:54

song feel like there are chapters

16:56

to it where it's like, we're

16:59

not just living in one tiny

17:01

moment, but we're like past present

17:03

future. Two summers from

17:06

now, well I've been talking,

17:08

but not all that often

17:11

were cool now. I'll be

17:13

on a boat here on

17:16

a plane. going

17:19

somewhere same. I'll be on

17:21

a boat, you're on a

17:23

plane, going somewhere same, is

17:26

one of my favorite parts

17:28

of the song. I just

17:31

like the concept of being

17:33

softer with each other and

17:35

having our own lives and

17:38

they are separate. Because that's

17:40

just the way life goes.

17:43

I push my luck. It

17:45

shows, thankful you don't send,

17:51

I know that I hurt your

17:53

feelings to an extent where I

17:55

guarantee you like your best friend

17:58

doesn't like very much anymore. I

18:00

have been careless in the past

18:02

about people's experiences on the other

18:05

side of writing something and I

18:07

was not until this past year

18:09

careful with how it might feel

18:11

to be on the receiving end

18:14

of a song being about you

18:16

and having seen the way that

18:18

it makes people feel. I don't

18:20

want to make people feel that

18:23

way. You

18:28

have a song from a few

18:30

years ago called I Miss You,

18:32

I'm Sorry. I feel like it

18:35

can't be a coincidence that this

18:37

song title follows the same sort

18:40

of format. So did you already

18:42

have the idea that you wanted

18:44

to fit the words, I love

18:47

you, I'm sorry, into what you

18:49

were writing? So I had written,

18:51

I miss you, I'm sorry about

18:54

the same person, wrote that song

18:56

years ago. And it kind of

18:59

felt like the first time I

19:01

had put a song out where

19:03

I felt like the response from

19:06

strangers was not just, oh, I

19:08

like this, but when I looked

19:10

at the comments under the YouTube

19:13

video, it was like paragraphs of

19:15

people's stories. And that was really

19:18

important for me. And then after,

19:20

for like years, I had written

19:22

different versions of songs of like,

19:25

I hate you, I'm sorry. For

19:27

some reason, something about that song

19:29

just got in my head is

19:32

like a, like this is like

19:34

a pillar. And there's more than

19:37

one track of her vocals? Yeah.

19:39

Two summers from now, we'll have

19:41

been talking, but not all that

19:44

often cool now. When Audrey came

19:46

to Long Pond, she just fucking

19:48

rip, like, rip in the vocal

19:51

booth in a way where like

19:53

Aaron and I and Bella, who's

19:56

a brilliant engineer, would like, be

19:58

out in the room. holy

20:02

shit, that's so fucking

20:04

awesome. The thing that

20:07

I love so much

20:10

about singing with her

20:12

is that like, I

20:15

think our voices do

20:17

a thing together where

20:20

it's like, it almost

20:22

feels like one thing

20:25

versus two things. Because

20:27

that's just the way

20:30

life goes. I push

20:32

my luck. It shows

20:35

thankful you don't send

20:38

someone to kill me.

20:40

I love you, I'm

20:43

sorry. I

20:45

want since on everything. Especially

20:48

because I think when Aaron

20:50

and I are together, we

20:52

can make things that feel

20:54

very woodsy and very bulky

20:56

and like that they like

20:59

belong to a witch. So

21:01

I wanted there to be

21:03

some lift. I wanted it

21:05

to feel a little bit

21:07

glittery and amidst the warmth

21:09

of the guitar and the

21:12

slide. Because

21:22

I feel like, you

21:24

know, maybe people

21:26

when they're listening to

21:29

the song, you're not

21:32

necessarily hearing those

21:34

things, but you feel

21:36

them. There are also

21:39

these beautiful strains.

21:41

Oh, yeah. Can you

21:44

tell me about

21:46

these parts? Rob Moose,

21:49

genius. I think it

21:51

just brings a

21:53

level of emotion that,

21:56

you know, nothing else

21:59

does. Yeah,

22:03

I'd like to work with

22:05

him forever. work with him forever. You said

22:08

that said that it was

22:10

around Christmas time when you

22:12

wrote this. when year was that?

22:14

this. What year was so it hasn't

22:16

been summers. been two summers. No. do

22:18

you feel about the song

22:21

now, looking back at it

22:23

a year later? back at it a

22:25

year later? It feels of like a

22:27

tiny little prophecy, I think.

22:29

I think. I remember sending him

22:32

the song when it was

22:34

done. was done. I was just

22:36

like, this sentiment is real.

22:38

is real. Here you go. I I

22:41

literally love you and I'm so

22:43

sorry. me This is me

22:45

fantasizing. This is me, wanting to be

22:47

wanting to be in a

22:49

place feel day where it doesn't

22:52

feel heavy an like knives every

22:54

time there's an interaction. doesn't feel

22:56

like too casual or too

22:58

intense, it just is is like, easy,

23:03

and like real friends. And

23:06

if I I can be

23:08

so presumptuous to say, I think to

23:12

say, I think it... I

23:14

I think it's working. And

23:27

now, now

23:29

Love You,

23:31

I'm Sorry

23:33

by Gracie

23:35

Abrams in

23:37

its entirety. Gracie

23:39

Abrams in its entirety.

23:41

Two August ago, I

23:43

told the truth, oh

23:45

but you didn't like

23:47

it, you went home,

23:49

you're in your pens,

23:51

and by the gate.

23:53

Now you go alone.

23:55

charm all the people

23:57

you for for

23:59

you but

24:01

aim low, aim

24:03

low and all

24:05

make it known

24:07

Like I'm getting paid.

24:09

That's just the way

24:11

life goes. I like

24:13

to slim. Doors closed,

24:15

trust me I know

24:17

it's always about me.

24:19

I love you, I'm

24:21

sorry. Two summers from

24:23

now. Well I've been

24:25

talking, but not all

24:27

that often we're cool

24:29

now. I'll be

24:31

on a boat, you're

24:34

on a plane, going

24:36

somewhere, same, and I'll

24:38

have a drink, wistfully

24:41

lean out my window

24:43

and watch the sun

24:46

set on the lake.

24:53

Because that's just the

24:56

way life goes I

24:58

push my luck it

25:01

shows thing for you

25:04

don't send someone to

25:06

kill me I

25:09

love you, I'm sorry. You

25:11

were the best, but you

25:14

were the worst as sick

25:16

as it sounds I loved

25:18

you first. I was a

25:21

dick, it is what it

25:23

is. I happen to kick

25:25

the age-old curse. I tend

25:28

to laugh whenever I'm sad,

25:30

I stare at the crash,

25:32

it actually works. Making amends,

25:35

she never ends, and wrong

25:37

again, wrong again, the way,

25:39

goes, joy riding down, or

25:42

love lay on the horn

25:44

to prove that it haunts

25:46

me. I love you, I'm

25:49

sorry the way life goes,

25:51

I want to speak, and

25:54

COVID, hope that I thought

25:56

won't make it about me.

25:58

I love you To

26:05

learn more, visit songexploder .net. You'll find

26:07

links to buy or stream I

26:09

Love You I'm Sorry, and you can

26:11

watch the music video, which was

26:13

directed by Gracie's co -writer, Audrey Hobart. This

26:17

episode was produced by Craig

26:19

Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary

26:21

Dolan, and myself. Our production

26:23

assistant is Tiger Biskup. The episode

26:25

our work is by Carlos

26:27

Lerma, and I made the show's

26:29

theme music and logo. Song

26:31

Exploder is a proud member of

26:33

Radiotopia from PRX, a network

26:35

of independent, listener -supported, artist -owned podcasts.

26:37

You can learn more about

26:39

our shows at radiotopia .fm. If

26:41

you'd like to hear more from

26:43

me, you can sign up

26:45

for my newsletter, which you can

26:47

find on the Song Exploder

26:49

website, and you can get a

26:51

Song Exploder t -shirt at songexploder

26:53

.net/shirt. I'm Rishikesh Hiraway. Thanks for

26:56

listening. Okay,

27:10

so we're a few weeks into

27:12

the annual fundraiser for Radiotopia, the podcast

27:14

network that Song Exploder belongs to.

27:16

And in our network, all the shows

27:18

are independently owned by the people

27:21

who make them, and Radiotopia's mission is

27:23

to help unique, creative, independent podcasts

27:25

survive and hopefully thrive. To do that,

27:27

shows on Radiotopia like this one

27:29

operate thanks to two sources of income,

27:31

advertising and donations that come directly

27:34

from our listeners. I can tell you

27:36

from experience that the advertising side

27:38

of things is incredibly inconsistent. It's really

27:40

hard to know how things are

27:42

going to go from one month to

27:44

another, let alone one year to

27:47

another. So the bedrock of our survival

27:49

comes from listeners who want to

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have an active hand in supporting the

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and if this is a show you

27:57

care about, you can make a

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tax deductible donation at Radiotopia. It can be a

28:02

dollar, five dollars, ten dollars a month, can be you

28:04

can do. If $5, ever $10 a month,

28:06

whatever you can do. If you've

28:08

ever gotten something out of listening to an episode,

28:10

or maybe you learned something new or you heard

28:12

a song that you loved in a new way, how

28:14

I guess ask yourself, to me? much is that worth

28:16

to me? to help you a show

28:18

keep a show like this

28:20

around and keep having experiences

28:23

like that? that? Again, it's radiotopia

28:25

.fm I'm so grateful to I'm so

28:27

grateful to everyone who listens so to even

28:29

more so to the folks who wanna support

28:31

indie podcasts like this one. one. Thanks a

28:33

lot.