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That's ship station calm with

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the code song exploder This

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episode contains explicit language Could

1:42

I just get you to introduce yourself? Yeah, I'm

1:45

Kathleen Hannah from the band Spikini kill and

1:47

late Tigra I also did a solo record

1:49

called the Julie ruin and I'm

1:51

really happy to be here before we get

1:53

into letigra I wanted to ask you about

1:55

bikini kill and the Julie ruin. I

1:57

thought it might be helpful to have some context as as

2:00

to how you got to La Tigra, because

2:02

all three of these projects have

2:04

kind of really different distinct sounds.

2:07

Yeah, because Bikini Co. is kind of a really

2:09

typical four-person punk band. I

2:12

can't do anything. Live

2:14

them down, live them down. I know

2:16

I wanna take you home, I

2:18

wanna try on your clothes on. I

2:21

was the lead singer and we were very

2:24

associated with like feminist punk. And

2:26

it became actually really kind of an

2:28

albatross because it was like just

2:31

constant criticism. There was a lot

2:33

of like, you're a sellout because

2:35

you played with the Go-Go's and it

2:37

was sponsored by Michelobre or whoever and

2:39

you're not doing feminism right. And then

2:41

the constant chorus of you're a man-hater.

2:44

It got really exhausting after seven years and

2:47

we hadn't really dealt with our relationships with each

2:49

other because we were constantly dealing with pressures from

2:51

the outside world and the band was

2:53

kind of not practicing. And I just wanted to be

2:55

a person in a band making music. Like,

2:58

gosh, can't I just write some songs

3:00

already? And so our

3:02

friend Slim Moon, he loaned me a

3:04

sampler and I had gotten a dramatic

3:07

strum machine. I used

3:09

those two things to start recording on

3:11

my four-track cassette player. And

3:13

it was very freeing. He took

3:15

the bomb. ["Tick the Bomb"] The

3:18

Tigra originally formed in 1998. They

3:21

released their self-titled debut in October, 1999.

3:24

Spin Magazine called it one of the best albums of

3:26

the past 30 years. And Pitchfork

3:28

called it one of the best albums of the 90s. I

3:31

listened to that album a lot when it came out. And

3:34

25 years later, I still hear songs from

3:36

it everywhere, on TV and in movies and

3:38

just out in the world, especially

3:41

the song Decepticon. For

3:43

this episode, I talked to Kathleen Hanna and

3:45

Johanna Fateman from La Tigra about how

3:48

they wrote it and how they put the track together.

3:51

["Tick the Bomb"] I

4:09

was wondering if you could tell

4:11

me about going from a band in a

4:13

sort of traditional rock setup to being like,

4:15

I'm going to make stuff with samplers and

4:17

drum machines beyond just wanting to make

4:19

music on your own. How did you decide that these

4:21

were the kinds of tools that you would

4:23

use? I was really influenced

4:26

by this guy who put out this record

4:28

Land of Loops and also

4:30

Atari Teenage Riot. They were

4:32

mixing punk with electronic music

4:34

in a way that I found really interesting.

4:38

So having the drum machine, which my then

4:40

boyfriend saw at a record store and was

4:42

like, this thing's worth so much money

4:44

and it's only $40, you have

4:46

to buy it. And I was like, okay, it was kind of

4:48

a fluke. And then as soon

4:50

as I got it, I was like, oh, I put the

4:52

snare here, the hi-hat here. I

4:55

just immediately started singing along to it. Can

5:16

you tell me about how you went from the

5:19

Julie Ruin to the Tigra? How did other people

5:21

get involved in your project? I

5:23

moved away from Olympia and eventually I made

5:25

my way to New York in like 1998.

5:29

And my friend, really good friend Johanna

5:31

Faitman, who had been my roommate for a

5:33

while many years before was in New York.

5:38

She's an art critic now and she writes books

5:40

and she's just like one of the smartest people I know

5:43

and she has the best taste. And she

5:45

was messing around with electronic music in

5:47

her apartment. And I was like, oh.

5:50

My name's Johanna Faitman. I

5:52

am a member of the band La

5:54

Tigra. I would love to

5:57

start by asking you what you might

5:59

remember about the first conversation you had

6:01

with Kathleen about even starting a band?

6:03

Well, Kathleen and I were in a band

6:06

before La Tugra when we lived in Portland

6:08

together. We were in this band called The

6:10

Troublemakers. So we had played music

6:12

together a little bit. But yeah, it started

6:14

that we were gonna recreate the Julie Ruin because,

6:17

you know, I did this record and I

6:20

wanna try to tour it. And I was

6:22

like, yeah, I'll go on tour. We can

6:24

figure out how to like reverse engineer those

6:26

songs to perform them live. And

6:29

so I had begun to

6:31

sample things from the

6:33

Julie Ruin record, but it

6:35

was very difficult to reverse engineer the

6:37

music. And we were trying to do

6:39

it and we just couldn't. And so we started writing

6:41

new songs. La Tugra began right

6:43

after I graduated from art school.

6:45

And definitely the kind of

6:47

art I was interested in was conceptual.

6:51

I was a punk and into punk music. And

6:53

I think the way those things dovetailed was that

6:55

I was not interested in virtuosity

6:57

of any kind. And

6:59

I wasn't interested in being good at playing

7:02

an instrument. So I

7:04

think that was cool about our

7:06

approach to songwriting. It was never

7:08

about like being good at

7:10

something. It was about having

7:12

good ideas and being good at

7:15

thinking things through and, you know, expressing

7:18

ourselves. And I thought that was punk.

7:21

It was so great to have kind of a partner in crime. Both

7:24

of us did not have a lot of money. You know, we were

7:26

trying to scrape by in New York. So

7:29

we used really old outdated equipment that

7:31

people just gave us or we found on

7:33

the street. Can you tell me

7:35

how Decepticon first got started? So

7:37

I was in this apartment by

7:40

myself. And I had by

7:43

that time gotten an eight track reel

7:45

to reel task amp with quarter inch

7:47

tape. And I'd brought it with me

7:49

to New York and set it up on a table. And

7:52

then I had my drum machine

7:54

and a guitar and

7:57

just laid down the most simple

7:59

drum. track ever. And that's

8:04

how I would kind of work is I would sometimes

8:06

I'd use just the same drum beat thinking replace it

8:08

later, you know, and just

8:10

speed it up and slow it

8:12

down and just put it on

8:14

like five different songs at once.

8:17

Almost like it's a more fun version of

8:20

a metronome. Exactly. And I would just play

8:22

guitar until I found something I liked and

8:24

then play it over and over. So

8:26

it's a Septicon. It was just a simple beat

8:28

and then like, doo doo doo doo. That was

8:31

it. That was the guitar riff. I just sang

8:33

over that. I just had all this

8:45

stuff in my head to get out and I

8:47

also had these melodies and a lot of the

8:49

lyrics were dummy lyrics because it was a throwaway

8:51

song. It wasn't something I was like, this is

8:53

great. You know what I mean? It was like

8:55

I did like four other songs after that and

8:58

I was doing it all on the floor.

9:00

That's the thing I really remember. The apartment

9:02

had really disgusting carpet, but

9:05

I got to practice space with

9:07

Johanna and we brought the A

9:09

track there and I would play

9:11

her these beginnings of songs and

9:13

then she would make comments and

9:15

notes. And I think

9:17

that she came to one of our

9:20

meetings with that song, not like structured

9:22

and polished and totally finished, but she

9:24

had the top line melody. What

9:26

was your first reaction when you heard the

9:29

thing that she played to? I knew

9:31

it was great and I knew it would

9:33

be the first song on

9:35

our record. Really? Yeah.

9:37

It had that like kickoff

9:39

energy that I feel

9:42

bridged Bikini Kill and La

9:44

Tigra, the rage and sort

9:46

of the razory lyrics,

9:49

but with that repetitive,

9:51

simple guitar line, it felt more

9:53

La Tigra. You

10:02

know, she's like, oh, let's put all these guitar parts

10:04

that you have on the sampler. The

10:07

first piece of equipment I had was actually an

10:09

Ensoniq Mirage, which is this sampler

10:11

keyboard that I bought off the street.

10:14

She put it on all the keys and started playing

10:16

it. So like that

10:18

riff, she would like play it

10:20

like fast. And then we

10:22

would like use the keys to pitch

10:24

it. And then of course, the lower it gets,

10:26

the more stretched out it gets and the longer

10:28

it gets. And we wanted a

10:31

long sample because we wanted to fill

10:33

a whole bar or two bars. So

10:36

we kind of stretched the sound as far as we

10:38

could. Okay, let me play that. Okay,

10:44

so that's actually not

10:47

what she played originally. That's pitched and

10:49

slowed down version of it. Played

10:52

on a different key. Exactly. And it's

10:54

eight bit. Eight bit was like kind

10:57

of junky and bad even back

10:59

then. So that sample

11:01

just has this like funny quality that had

11:03

to do with kind of the quirks of

11:06

the machine. There was

11:08

a lot of weird problems with equipment, but

11:11

we, you know, always would get the manuals and

11:13

figure it out. And I remember we

11:15

both went to this thing about

11:17

glitch music, which was like big back at

11:20

the time. And it was all these guys

11:22

talking about this intricate process that they went

11:24

through to pull the plug

11:26

on their computer and we get this certain sound. And

11:29

we were kind of like giggling because it was so

11:32

ridiculous. And it reminded me of I

11:34

went to a major label office one time

11:36

and I saw them trying to recreate the

11:38

fancy look on a computer. And

11:40

I was like, just get scissors and paste like

11:42

a glue stick and then just do it. It's

11:44

like, just use your hands, right?

11:47

And so it was kind of that same vibe

11:49

of like, these guys are going through all this

11:51

like crazy expensive equipment to like make mistakes. And

11:54

like, Lateeera was all about making mistakes. Like it was

11:56

all about making a mistake and then being like, I

11:58

love what that mistake sounds like. I

14:00

felt like my band had had a big

14:02

cultural effect, not just on the punk scene,

14:04

but beyond that. And so it was

14:07

really frustrating to sometimes

14:09

look around and see ads on

14:11

TV for a makeup. And

14:13

it was like revolutionary

14:16

mascara. And

14:18

it felt like this whole girl power thing

14:21

was being stripped of any

14:23

actual content. And it

14:25

was just a way to sell products.

14:27

There was no feminism involved. There was

14:29

nothing behind it. So I

14:31

wrote this angry song about who

14:33

took the bump, who took the

14:36

joy out of music, who took the soul out

14:38

of music, who took the ideas out of music.

14:41

You bought a new van, the first year of

14:43

your band. You're cool and

14:46

I highly wanna say none because

14:48

I'm so bored that I'll be

14:50

in a turn even my strip

14:52

and funk in the Nolian floor,

14:55

the Nolian floor. Your lyrics are

14:57

down the Kala Nolian floor. Walk

14:59

on in, I'll walk all over

15:01

you. Walk on in, walk on

15:03

in, walk on one two. There's

15:07

this other layer that I have of Mirage.

15:10

["Marias"] How

15:17

did you make that sound? Okay, so

15:19

yeah, I played that keyboard part and that

15:21

is the same sample. It's the

15:23

same as this one. Yeah. So

15:27

you're just basically pressing and releasing the key really

15:29

quickly so it only plays the first note of

15:31

the sample? Well, if you

15:33

listen, I think it's actually getting

15:35

a couple notes in there. Like

15:38

that chirpy chattery sound is multiple

15:40

notes. ["Chirpy Chattery"]

15:44

Yeah, wow. That's awesome.

15:47

Yeah, I mean, when we were just like

15:49

practicing and playing around, we were just

15:51

like, oh, that sounds good. Like it wasn't even

15:53

something we were unhappy with

15:55

or felt like we were compromised

15:58

with, you know what I mean? Yeah. And

16:00

then we started putting drum machines on it.

16:05

The beat was made on the

16:08

HR16B Elisa's drum machine. I

16:11

went to just like a used

16:13

music store in Manhattan and

16:16

was like, what's your least

16:18

expensive drum machine? And

16:20

they were kind of hesitant to sell me the Elisa's

16:23

because they were just like, this is not, you know, cool.

16:29

So what made you want that one then, if they were saying this one isn't

16:31

cool? I mean, that

16:34

just sort of increased its allure for me because

16:36

I was like, I want

16:38

the thing that nobody wants. We

16:43

wanted the drums to be kind of the chaotic dance energy.

16:45

I love how gnarly the claps are. That's

16:51

actually not from the drum machine. I believe that's sampled.

16:56

It's like kind of a third layer

16:58

thrown in there. That

17:00

makes sense. Yeah, because you can hear like the ghost of

17:02

other sounds. Yeah, exactly.

17:04

It's very dirty. And

17:08

so she added that, she helped add the

17:10

structure, and then we put the breakdown

17:12

in. At the time,

17:15

a lot of rap records that we

17:17

liked would start with the hook. And

17:25

we were like, kind of obsessed with

17:27

this idea of like, not waiting until you're all the

17:29

way in the song. And it was right when your

17:32

tracks were being available online and

17:34

people would listen to them for 10 seconds. And if they didn't like

17:36

it, they just would pass by it. And

17:39

that was why a lot of people back then

17:41

were putting kind of their best idea at

17:44

the beginning because then people will be like, wait, what is

17:46

this? And so we started

17:48

with the breakdown and then the breakdown came back two more times.

17:51

Yeah, it's funny to hear you call it a

17:53

breakdown because in my head, that's the chorus. It

17:55

is, it turned into the chorus, but it's like,

17:57

if you listen to it, There's

18:00

only pretty much drums and

18:02

vocal. ["He Chicks

18:04

the Bump"] And

18:10

it felt like that's what the song was about. To

18:13

me, it really expressed like who sucked

18:16

the life out of music. I

18:19

mean, the answer is capitalism, but,

18:22

you know, maybe I'll write that

18:24

song later. ["He Chicks the

18:26

Bump"] My

18:29

conversation with Kathleen Hanna and Johanna Fateman

18:31

continues after this. This

18:36

episode is brought to you by Nightside,

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the platforms they rely on. to

22:00

a mastering place in Portland, Oregon. And

22:03

I had a really bad experience.

22:05

The guys didn't listen to

22:07

me at all. I had all these

22:09

really kooky notes that I wrote in

22:11

my own notation that I brought. And

22:14

I really knew what I wanted it to sound

22:16

like. And then the icing on the

22:18

cake was when one of them said, can you

22:20

get us coffee? And I

22:22

hated what it sounded like, and I wasn't gonna put

22:24

it out. I was like, oh well, I just wasted

22:27

year of my life. I

22:29

just sort of put it away. And I was going through

22:31

the depression of leaving Bikini Kill. And so I was in

22:33

North Carolina, and then someone

22:35

told me, oh, Chris Daimi lives here.

22:39

And I was like, whoa, the guy

22:41

from the DBs has a recording studio.

22:43

That sounds really cool. And so

22:45

I remastered it with him, and it was

22:47

awesome. It was such a great experience. It

22:49

was completely opposite of the one I had

22:51

before. Chris is one of the

22:53

reasons I'm still making music. Because had

22:56

I not gone back and tried again and had

22:58

a really great experience. I don't know if I

23:00

would have been so excited about writing all these

23:02

new songs. So I had that in

23:05

the back of my head of like, ooh, what will Chris

23:07

do with this? I

23:10

take you home now once we get

23:13

you hot. You're just a parent when

23:15

you're screaming and you're shouting more crackers,

23:17

please. More crackers, please. It's

23:19

sung in a really specific register. It's

23:23

really high. Which like, it doesn't maybe

23:25

sound like, you know, Diana Ross high,

23:27

but it's like, it's squirrely.

23:29

It's up in the squirrel register. You

23:32

want what you want, but you don't

23:34

want to be on your knees. Who

23:36

does your, who does your hair? You

23:42

know, I learned that from musical theater as a

23:44

kid, how to project my voice. And then I

23:46

used it in punk because when I first started,

23:48

sometimes I wouldn't even have a monitor. So it

23:50

was really important that I sang loud so I

23:53

could hear myself. I

23:55

want to disco, want to see me disco.

23:57

Let me hear you deep a little size

23:59

my rah. One, two, three,

24:01

four. There's

24:04

so many hooks in the song. It's

24:06

a hook sandwich. Yeah. I

24:08

mean, we weren't specifically thinking like, create a

24:10

hook here or create a hook there.

24:13

It was more like, oh, this part's catchy. Let's

24:15

do it again. So it wasn't

24:17

like rocket science or anything. It was just

24:19

like, oh, that sounds cool. Let's put that

24:21

in another place. It's

24:23

all right, all right, all right, all right, all right.

24:34

So when Decepticon became a thing,

24:37

it was such a shock to us that people

24:40

really glommed onto that song. And

24:42

have you felt keenly aware of the lasting power

24:44

of that song too? Because I

24:46

still hear it everywhere. OK,

24:48

so here's the thing that was really cool

24:51

for me about that song is our friends,

24:54

Howie and Miguel. Miguel was a

24:56

choreographer and dancer, and he made

24:58

up a dance. And

25:00

he came over to my place. Someone

25:02

brought a video camera, and we hung

25:04

up a sheet as

25:07

a backdrop. And Miguel

25:09

and his roommate Howie wore

25:11

these pantsuits, and they made these funny hats,

25:13

and they did the dance. And that was

25:16

the video, which cost like $30 to make.

25:20

And so we just shot it, and it was like a one

25:22

shot. They just did the dance. We played

25:24

the track. We put it out. And

25:27

then years later, someone was

25:30

like, do you know that people

25:32

are doing the Decepticon dance at

25:34

weddings? And I was like,

25:36

what? So I went on YouTube, and it

25:38

was like people were doing a flash mob

25:40

when flash mobs were a thing. People

25:43

were imitating it at talent

25:45

shows. People would get up at

25:47

parties, like a group of 20

25:49

people and do it.

25:51

So it became kind of this

25:53

YMCA of electroclash. And

25:56

that was really great, because it was like people

25:58

were participating in the song. They were. weren't just

26:00

consuming it, they were learning

26:02

the dance. It was lowbrow

26:04

single ladies. I

26:07

remember one of my favorite ones was

26:09

these two girls who must've been 13

26:11

doing it in the garage at their

26:14

house. And then you could

26:16

hear their parents banging on the door, like, what are you

26:18

doing in there? And I was like, this is my

26:21

proudest moment. Kids being

26:23

kooky together and creative together.

26:25

And it was really lovely

26:28

to be a part of that we

26:30

weren't really a part of it, we were the soundtrack to

26:32

it. So to be a soundtrack to

26:34

people's regular lives and things they do in their

26:36

regular life, that was to me

26:39

the life of the song that I never

26:41

could have imagined that made me really, really

26:43

happy. Lechiger

26:46

is gonna go on tour again next summer, so it feels

26:49

really lovely and beautiful to have young

26:51

people come out and see Lechiger for

26:53

the first time because part of my

26:55

goal was we wanted to put on

26:57

a show that if there's

27:00

one 15-year-old girl there who's like, what

27:02

the hell? Because it's like

27:04

video and dancing and costumes and the whole

27:06

thing, and we really go the

27:08

full way on it to give

27:10

this kind of weird feminist present

27:13

to a kid who maybe hasn't

27:15

experienced that. I

27:17

don't know, it's just the best, the

27:19

best. And now here's Decepticon by Lechiger

27:21

in its entirety. ["The

27:30

Bum Bum Bum"] ["Everyday

27:52

by"] ["Everyday

27:54

by"] ["Everyday

27:58

by"] I

28:00

can see your little sky, blue sky

28:03

Taking second my heart out of my

28:05

mind I'm out of time, I'm

28:07

out of fucking time I'm a gasoline

28:09

guy, I'm about to leave my heart Want

28:12

to disco, want to see me disco Let

28:15

me hear you people in a tight moron

28:18

One, two, three, four You

28:21

got what you've been asking for So

28:25

I'm all in green, I'm

28:27

gonna say we'll go Everything

28:29

you think and everything you

28:31

feel is alright, alright, alright,

28:33

alright, alright, alright I

28:48

take you home and I watch me

28:51

get you hot You just look at

28:53

them and you scream and then you

28:55

shout it home Can't you please, can't

28:57

you please You want what you want

28:59

but you don't wanna be I'm gonna

29:01

lean to the side, the side of

29:03

your head He

29:18

takes the bump and the bump and the bump

29:20

and the He takes the ramp and the ramp

29:22

and the ramp and the dang dong He takes

29:24

the bump and the bump and the bump and

29:27

the He takes the ramp and the ramp and

29:29

the dang dong You've

29:42

got a new better pressure up your head You're

29:45

cool and I highly wanna say

29:47

not to cut I'm so bored,

29:49

I'm hot See you just turn

29:52

into my flippin' fox In the

29:54

nolian's lord, the nolian's lord Your

29:56

lyrics are just like a linalian's

29:58

lord CHORUS

30:08

She�ka-Danko She�ka

30:11

R Bugs From

30:14

the OPEC She�ka

30:23

R Bugs To

30:34

learn more visit songexploder.net You'll

30:37

find links to buy or stream Decepticon and

30:39

you can watch the music video that has

30:41

the dance that Kathleen Hanna was talking about.

30:45

This episode was produced by Craig

30:47

Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary

30:49

Dolan, and myself. Our

30:51

production assistant is Tiger Biscope. The

30:54

episode artwork is by Carlos Larma and I

30:56

made the shows theme music and logo. SongExploder

31:00

is a proud member of Radiotopia

31:02

from PRX, a

31:04

network of independent, listener supported,

31:06

artist owned podcasts. You

31:08

can learn more about our shows at Radiotopia.fm.

31:12

You can sign up for my

31:14

newsletter on the SongExploder website and

31:16

you can also follow me and

31:19

SongExploder on Instagram and you can

31:21

get a SongExploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/shirt.

31:24

I'm Rishikesh Hireway. Thanks for

31:26

listening. Radiotopia

31:33

From PRX You've

31:39

probably heard me say at the

31:41

end of every episode that SongExploder

31:43

is a proud member of Radiotopia,

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31:47

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31:49

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