0:01

Hello friends, my my is Tammy

0:03

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0:05

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1:01

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1:05

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1:12

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1:15

thank you for your support.

1:17

In this episode of of

1:19

the Edge, my guest

1:21

is is Eileen Santos Rosetti. Eileen

1:23

is a dula,

1:26

a a trauma -informed

1:28

yoga teacher. a grief

1:30

educator a a

1:32

loss survivor. She specializes

1:34

specializes in grief and

1:37

postpartum care. for

1:39

survivors of pregnant... and loss.

1:41

Eileen holds a master

1:43

of science marriage, and

1:46

family therapy degree from

1:48

Northwestern University. and

1:50

is certified as a as

1:53

a donor, of

1:55

North America, America, International

1:57

Postpartum her brand.

2:00

Our Sacred is known

2:02

for its elevated

2:04

offerings that help

2:06

women feel seen,

2:08

held, and honored.

2:11

honored. especially passionate passionate

2:13

all who give birth. all

2:15

who give birth and after live

2:17

births and after loss.

2:19

and after the author of

2:21

a new and deeply

2:23

loving book. book. I I

2:26

have to say I

2:28

think it's the most

2:30

gentle, caring, feels like a

2:32

like a read it. That's you

2:34

read it. That's how

2:36

it felt to me.

2:39

Her book is called

2:41

To and to Hold, honoring our

2:43

bodies, our needs, our needs and

2:46

our grief through prayer. and

2:48

infant loss. Eileen, welcome. Thank

2:50

you, Tammy. It's It's an

2:52

honor to be here. here.

2:55

It's an an honor to be with

2:57

you. you. You poured so much love

2:59

and care and heart. to

3:02

tend and to hold. to

3:04

tend and to hold, and I

3:06

know the book just arrived. doorstep, doorstep,

3:08

finished, complete, fresh the

3:10

the presses just yesterday

3:12

evening. evening. It It did

3:14

I I stayed up for two

3:17

hours. know I didn't know

3:19

that had passed, that much time had

3:21

passed, had passed. but two hours

3:23

later, I just couldn't put it down.

3:25

put it down. such a moment.

3:28

such a It is, in a way, it's

3:30

your book, baby. your book, baby. really

3:32

is. And Haven, my editor there

3:34

at there, was sounds true, me

3:36

this whole way. me Could

3:38

it be here without her? it be here

3:40

us a little bit. Tell us a a way

3:42

to get to know you a

3:44

little bit you to give people some

3:47

sense of the inside story. of

3:49

the inside how you came

3:51

to write. to tend and to hold.

3:53

What inspired you to do so? inspired

3:56

you to do so? Yeah, so I

3:59

experienced two early pregnancy

4:01

losses. after giving

4:03

birth to my first giving birth

4:05

to my first living child. really stands

4:08

out is this memory really

4:10

stands out? is

4:12

this memory from the first

4:14

experience of pregnancy loss? the toilet,

4:17

where I was. sitting on

4:19

the toilet. know I was going to

4:21

have I didn't know I was

4:23

going to have contractions. My doctor had

4:25

told me I would feel cramping, I

4:27

would be bleeding. be bleeding. But Temia

4:29

was on the toilet, and I thought... and

4:32

I thought, And can I cut

4:34

I cuss here? can. can be free, be

4:36

be free. I thought, oh shit, I'm

4:38

I thought, oh now because I

4:40

had given now. because

4:43

I had given birth already to

4:45

my first living child. So I knew

4:47

what was happening. I mean, I

4:49

didn't know in advance, but in

4:51

the moment, moment it. just dawned on

4:53

me that I am going through what

4:55

I went through with my first pregnancy

4:58

and laboring and birthing. and

5:00

birthing and It It astounded me that

5:02

I didn't realize that I would be

5:04

giving birth. be giving birth It seems

5:06

so obvious. When you're in the

5:09

when you're in the moment or after the fact.

5:11

but I But I think for

5:13

many people, that that a surprise. surprise

5:15

and There are many are many reasons

5:17

why I came to this moment,

5:19

to be with you with this

5:21

book. book. That's one of the main

5:23

moments that really spurred me that

5:26

really spurred me to want to

5:28

create something. can help others

5:30

can help others feel more prepared.

5:32

And after my experiences

5:35

of my experiences of pregnancy I had this

5:37

I had this vision come to me

5:39

that I write about in the

5:41

book. in the book. In this vision,

5:43

I saw a group of women.

5:45

women. It was nighttime. very

5:47

dark, but a group of women standing

5:50

around a small body of water, like

5:52

a pond, of in nature. a pond in

5:54

nature. And they they were

5:56

standing just close to together some arm

5:58

in arm. and they were looking

6:00

down at the water at

6:02

candles floating. And I knew

6:04

intuitively that they were there

6:06

to honor the pregnancies that

6:09

had ended in loss, but

6:11

also to honor themselves. And

6:13

from that, I began to

6:15

long for that to actually

6:17

happen in real life, a

6:19

moment to honor not just

6:21

the losses, Tammy, but that

6:23

these losses happen in our

6:25

bodies or in the case

6:27

of infant loss. The loss

6:29

happened after the birth, but

6:32

still so intimately tied to

6:34

your body and what other

6:36

death is there or loss

6:38

is there that so embodied

6:40

that way So I began

6:42

hosting these dining events in

6:44

Los Angeles that I called

6:46

our home loss And it

6:48

was meant to be a

6:50

time to gather Those who

6:53

experienced this type of loss

6:55

with their bodies and to

6:57

honor them when so much

6:59

that is out there about

7:01

the topic really focuses on

7:03

the pregnancy that ended or

7:05

the baby that died. Like

7:07

where are we in this

7:09

conversation? And in hosting those

7:11

dinners and seeing just the

7:14

profound softening that my guest

7:16

felt, I knew I wanted

7:18

to try to capture the

7:20

essence of those gatherings in

7:22

a way that I could

7:24

share it more widely with

7:26

the world. And at one

7:28

of these dinners, the very

7:30

last one I hosted before

7:32

the pandemic, I said that

7:35

out loud at the table

7:37

because usually we would do

7:39

short introductions like your name

7:41

what drew you to be

7:43

there tonight that night and

7:45

when it was my turn

7:47

I shared this this seed

7:49

that was planted in me

7:51

that I want to I

7:53

want to capture what we're

7:56

feeling right now in a

7:58

book and I spoke it

8:00

and Tammy it's here. In

8:02

to tend and to hold,

8:04

you make the point again

8:06

and again how people who

8:08

have suffered. pregnancy loss, womb

8:10

loss, are not alone. And

8:12

of course the statistics are

8:14

staggering actually in terms of

8:17

the number of women who

8:19

have gone through some type

8:21

of wound loss, pregnancy loss,

8:23

infant loss. And I'm curious,

8:25

given this, these profound number

8:27

of people who have gone

8:29

through an experience like this,

8:31

from your perspective why it

8:33

still feels like something. we

8:35

don't want to talk about,

8:38

we want to avoid, that

8:40

feels taboo even and has

8:42

a sort of stigma to

8:44

it. I noticed in approaching

8:46

this conversation, I was like,

8:48

wow, we're going into territory

8:50

that is not usually spoken

8:52

about in just an open

8:54

and transparent way, the way

8:56

you do in the book

8:58

and the way we're going

9:01

to talk about it in

9:03

this conversation. And I wonder

9:05

what your view is of

9:07

that. I think it's many

9:09

things. I do touch on

9:11

gender in the book. I

9:13

think a big part for

9:15

those who are pregnant, identify

9:17

as women. You know, this

9:19

sense that we grew up

9:22

with at least here in

9:24

America, not being an inconvenience,

9:26

not taking up too much

9:28

room. I think that the

9:30

way we're socialized based on

9:32

our gender plays in. And

9:34

so we may be reluctant

9:36

to share the news with

9:38

others. for fear of being

9:40

a burden. And also countless

9:43

women that I've talked to

9:45

have experienced womb loss. They

9:47

have told me, and it

9:49

mirrors my own experience, that

9:51

it's hard. It's hard to

9:53

name what we're feeling and

9:55

to name what we're needing

9:57

to ask for help. I

9:59

think it's part of it,

10:01

though I have to say

10:04

in the last handful of

10:06

years since... Since writing my

10:08

book proposal and finding a

10:10

home, that sounds true. Things

10:12

are changing, especially with social

10:14

media. You have more people

10:16

sharing very openly about their

10:18

fertility struggles, about their different

10:20

forms of loss. So I

10:22

have a lot of hope.

10:25

And what's unique about my

10:27

book too, Tammy is it's

10:29

really the first that I

10:31

know of that honors that

10:33

we too are postpartum after

10:35

pregnancy and infant loss. Postpartum

10:37

simply means after birth. And

10:39

for anyone who's been pregnant,

10:41

that pregnancy will eventually have

10:43

to end at some point

10:46

in some way, your body

10:48

will release that pregnancy in

10:50

some way. And then you'll

10:52

be in the post-partum period.

10:54

It's a time of great

10:56

shifts physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally,

10:58

even when you're returning to

11:00

a non-pregnant state. I say

11:02

returning, but... You can never

11:04

be fully who you were

11:07

before a pregnancy, before the

11:09

pregnancy. You're forever changed. What

11:11

changes when you have an

11:13

understanding that a woman who's

11:15

had a miscarriage, and I

11:17

realize now you use the

11:19

term womb loss, not miscarriage,

11:21

so I think we should

11:23

talk about that, but a

11:25

woman who has a miscarriage

11:27

is in fact post- Pardon,

11:30

that's one of the points

11:32

in your book. And I'm

11:34

trying to understand, what does,

11:36

how does that change things

11:38

when you see it that

11:40

way? Because it seems it

11:42

really does change things quite

11:44

a lot. Yeah, I think

11:46

it's a tremendous truth that

11:48

needs to be more known

11:51

in the world. Often when

11:53

I share that piece with

11:55

post-parumdula clients of mine or

11:57

people I meet. There's usually

11:59

a pause, a very pregnant

12:01

pause, if you will. As

12:03

they realize, oh yeah, that's

12:05

right, I was pregnant, I'm

12:07

not pregnant now, that means...

12:09

on post-partum. It's important because

12:12

as there's more resources and

12:14

awareness in America at least

12:16

of the post-birth time, the

12:18

post-partum time being one that

12:20

needs more attention, that people

12:22

who are post-partum need more

12:24

support, it can help survivors

12:26

of pregnancy and infant loss

12:28

or womb loss have some

12:30

kind of a road map.

12:33

So there's no. strong cultural

12:35

guidelines in our society for

12:37

what to do when you

12:39

are experiencing pregnancy and infant

12:41

loss. So to understand that

12:43

you're also postpartum can be

12:45

helpful. You can think, okay,

12:47

I'm postpartum. Here are many

12:49

books on the shelves now

12:51

about the postpartum time. I

12:54

also need what other people

12:56

who give birth need, which

12:58

is nursing food, healing touch.

13:00

bereavement leave, time away from

13:02

work if possible, paid, protected

13:04

time, community support. It's just

13:06

when someone goes through pregnancy

13:08

infant loss, it's just unfortunately

13:10

so common for people to

13:12

not even think that they

13:15

should take time off work.

13:17

And even if your loss

13:19

occurred in the first trimester

13:21

very early on, you weren't

13:23

visibly showing, your body's still

13:25

going through so many shifts,

13:27

and it needs time to

13:29

rest. It needs time to

13:31

heal. So my hope in

13:33

making that point, Tammy, is

13:35

to spur our culture, to

13:38

create those guidelines, so that

13:40

when someone hears if someone

13:42

else experience such a loss,

13:44

they have ideas come to

13:46

them of what they can

13:48

do to support them, to

13:50

support them in the way

13:52

we more or less automatically

13:54

know how to support people

13:56

enduring other forms of death,

13:59

to support people who are

14:01

postpartum, and to also affirm.

14:03

And to also affirm. for

14:05

survivors of womb loss, that

14:07

what you've gone through is

14:09

tremendous. and you deserve to

14:11

feel held and cared for.

14:13

I mean I had never

14:15

heard of this term womb

14:17

loss before encountering your work

14:20

and I always used the

14:22

word miscarriage and didn't think

14:24

anything of it. Can you

14:26

help educate our listeners on

14:28

this shift in language and

14:30

this whole notion you have

14:32

of how do we soften

14:34

our language? So I'll start

14:36

at the beginning of your

14:38

question. The word miscarriage no

14:41

longer resonates with me. It

14:43

has that prefix miss as

14:45

in mistake, as in you

14:47

did something wrong. And unfortunately

14:49

so much of language around

14:51

women's reproductive health, female reproductive

14:53

health. It's very demeaning, actually,

14:55

as much as it's codified

14:57

in Western medicine. So I

14:59

wanted to offer with the

15:02

book other options. I wanted

15:04

readers to know like what

15:06

exists. We don't have to

15:08

settle for what exists. We

15:10

can create new language that

15:12

feels more respectful to us.

15:14

So oftentimes pregnancy loss, early

15:16

pregnancy loss, that's what miscarriages.

15:18

It's usually in America at

15:20

least a pregnancy that ends

15:23

before 20 weeks. So that's

15:25

often referred to as miscarriage.

15:27

So what I offer in

15:29

the book are other terms

15:31

like pregnancy loss. It's a

15:33

little more general. It doesn't

15:35

have that miss at the

15:37

beginning. No sense of onus

15:39

when so oftentimes such loss

15:41

is really out of our

15:44

control. It's chromosomal abnormalities or

15:46

honestly Tammy there's not enough

15:48

research for women's reproductive health.

15:50

So hopefully in the coming

15:52

years we'll know more. wanting

15:54

to help relieve survivors of

15:56

whom loss of the guilt

15:58

that is so prevalent. among

16:00

us. language that is uh...

16:03

with language is more that

16:05

is softer, that is more compassionate,

16:07

that's more humanizing. talking to

16:09

a I was talking to

16:11

a friend of mine. about this

16:13

And I was talking about I

16:15

conversation and I and I were having and

16:17

I said why do you think there's so

16:19

much and around

16:21

people talking about loss.

16:24

loss? And she said, well,

16:26

look, Tammy, this is is all

16:28

not that obvious for you,

16:30

because you don't don't identify as

16:32

a heterosexual and you don't

16:34

take on those norms, but

16:36

for a lot of who do,

16:39

who do, there's this sense that

16:41

as a woman, part of your

16:43

value historically through the ages comes from

16:45

your ability, your your capacity to birth

16:47

children and give And and that's

16:49

part of your value as a

16:51

woman, and I was like, like, I

16:54

never really thought about that. So

16:56

anyway, I'm wondering what you think

16:58

of that observation. what you absolutely. Tell

17:00

me very much. Oh, yes, Yeah,

17:02

I had someone just recently. yeah, I

17:04

had A woman who experienced

17:06

pregnancy loss 50 years ago,

17:09

who read my manuscript. years ago, who

17:11

read my that it moved her. and said

17:13

that she said that said that she

17:15

very much felt like she had

17:17

failed. failed and that her partner at

17:19

the time felt that way towards her. her.

17:22

And I I think there's this this

17:24

kind of of misconception. that

17:27

that pregnancy automatically leads to a living

17:29

child, to a baby. to a baby,

17:31

despite the odds of the odds

17:33

of having loss being really really

17:35

high. I completely

17:37

agree that many women, their

17:39

ability to conceive, to carry a

17:42

pregnancy, to birth, a living

17:44

child can be so intimately tied

17:46

to their self -worth. to their to

17:48

their identity as a woman very much. I hear

17:50

that a lot. a lot. I hear that a lot

17:52

and so I wanted very much to write

17:54

a book. much to write a

17:56

meet them in that place. them in

17:59

that place. tell them that

18:01

no, it's not your fault?

18:03

So many times, it's beyond

18:06

our control. And you deserve

18:08

to feel held and seen

18:11

as you process this loss.

18:13

And you are no less

18:16

deserving of that kind of

18:18

support. This notion of being

18:20

seen acknowledged, not putting our

18:23

womb loss and hiding it

18:25

away, what would it be

18:28

like, do you think? What

18:30

changes would have to take

18:32

place at a societal level

18:35

for that to be the

18:37

case, for this to be

18:40

quote-unquote normalized? Yeah, the first

18:42

thing that comes to mind

18:45

hearing that Tammy is systems

18:47

changes. You might be surprised

18:49

to know that... This

18:52

topic of perinatal loss, pregnancy

18:54

and infant loss, lung loss,

18:57

it's not often covered in

18:59

the standard education for people

19:02

who work with pregnant people.

19:04

Whether it's therapists, having gone

19:07

through a marriage and family

19:09

therapy program, I know that

19:12

for myself, friends who are

19:14

nurses, who are doctors, Obiji,

19:16

YN. But it's very... It's

19:19

surprising, it's astounding really how

19:21

this education is not woven

19:24

into the standard training. So

19:26

for those of us who

19:29

go through this kind of

19:31

loss, we're met with healing

19:34

and health providers who are

19:36

not trained. This kind of

19:39

education is kind of knowledge

19:41

you have to search for.

19:43

You have to go out

19:46

of your way to acquire.

19:49

And so I think one

19:51

of the biggest changes we

19:54

can make is to have

19:56

those who are in places

19:58

of power to make decisions

20:01

about what goes into the

20:03

curriculum to integrate both grief

20:05

and trauma sensitive care in

20:07

general and then especially for

20:10

those navigating pregnancy and bereavement

20:12

at the same time just

20:14

I think that can have

20:17

such powerful ripple effects. That

20:19

said my hope is that

20:21

with each person who comes

20:23

to this book that they'll

20:26

gift it to another person

20:28

and that this grassroots movement

20:30

will have a lot of

20:33

power to influence those larger

20:35

systems changes? You write about

20:37

that moment when you learn

20:40

about the fact that your

20:42

pregnancy isn't viable or when

20:44

you get that information from

20:46

a health care provider and

20:49

you write hearing. about our

20:51

womb loss is a moment

20:53

that deserves reverence. But all

20:56

too often I hear stories

20:58

from womb loss survivors that

21:00

speak to a deep and

21:03

urgent need for our health

21:05

care providers, the programs that

21:07

train them, and the institutions

21:09

where we receive care to

21:12

be better equipped to offer

21:14

grief and trauma sensitive care.

21:16

We need and deserve compassionate

21:19

holding environments so that the

21:21

trauma of our loss is

21:23

not compounded by trauma from

21:26

how we learned about it.

21:28

Yes. The notion of reverence

21:30

during that moment, I wonder

21:32

if you can speak directly

21:35

to that. Yes, so with

21:37

other forms of death, it's

21:39

just automatic that a sense

21:42

of a pause and reverence

21:44

is afforded. to the person

21:46

grieving. And yet with pregnancy

21:49

and infant loss with wound

21:51

loss, that's so often not

21:53

the case. And rather, many

21:55

of us are met with

21:58

phrases that feel very hurtful

22:00

or insensitive. For example, well,

22:02

it wasn't a baby. And

22:05

some people may feel it

22:07

was, some people may not,

22:09

and still feel grief. I

22:12

heard, at least it was

22:14

early, like early in the

22:16

pregnancy. So it's just so

22:18

common to hear dismissive remarks

22:21

like that. And so the

22:23

idea of reverence I think

22:25

is so missing from this

22:28

conversation that many of the

22:30

books I saw out there,

22:32

Tammy, and in the time

22:34

that I was going through

22:37

my acute grief, really focused

22:39

on like information, medical information,

22:41

or the mental health side

22:44

of the topic. And it

22:46

all felt very like neck

22:48

up. And I wanted something

22:51

that would sink into the

22:53

heart. And the word reverence

22:55

really came to me in

22:57

the writing of the book

23:00

these past four years, that

23:02

sinking down, that going into

23:04

a more sacred space, reverence

23:07

is the key. And in

23:09

the book I write, what

23:11

if our health care providers

23:14

were to enter the room,

23:16

say you were in a

23:18

birthing center or a hospital,

23:20

were to enter the room

23:23

with reverence, as if they

23:25

were entering a sacred place

23:27

in nature, or a sacred

23:30

place of worship with soft

23:32

quiet steps and in reverence,

23:34

a willingness to suspend what's

23:37

going on for them and

23:39

to really be with you

23:41

and what's going on for

23:43

you to companion you in

23:46

that moment. You mentioned how

23:48

this topic can be approached

23:50

from a neck-up? and you

23:53

wanted to do something different,

23:55

not a neck-up perspective. but

23:57

a full body. And you've

24:00

done that with your book,

24:02

very, very much so. And

24:04

I think part of the

24:06

challenge, if you will, in

24:09

reading to tend and to

24:11

hold, is entering a full

24:13

body experience of our shared

24:16

grief in these experiences. It's

24:18

big and it's hard. and

24:20

it's challenging and you emphasize

24:23

again and again this notion

24:25

of how we can somatically

24:27

be with our whole body

24:29

selves neck down and our

24:32

head all of ourselves and

24:34

you the book is filled

24:36

with loving gentle self-tending practices

24:39

and I wonder if you

24:41

can just give our listeners

24:43

a sense of that a

24:45

sense of some of the

24:48

practices that you offer in

24:50

the book and that you

24:52

personally have found helpful. Thank

24:55

you for asking that Tammy.

24:57

So there are many parts

24:59

of me that came into

25:02

the writing process, my marriage

25:04

and family therapy self, my

25:06

yoga teacher's self, myself, myself

25:08

as a survivor of wound

25:11

loss and trauma. And as

25:13

those different parts of me

25:15

came to the page, they

25:18

brought with them what helped

25:20

them what helped them. And

25:23

in my own grieving and healing

25:25

process, I found that not any

25:28

one thing was a magic elixir.

25:30

That for me, it was tending

25:32

to myself in many different ways.

25:34

So physically, mentally, spiritually. And I

25:36

wanted to make it a point

25:39

to share grounding practices, to help

25:41

stem any feeling of overwhelm. Because

25:43

when you are postpartum whether it's

25:45

after a living child with a

25:48

living child or without one

25:50

Last thing you

25:52

really want to

25:54

do is pick

25:56

up a book. to

25:59

You're exhausted. a

26:01

You've gone through

26:03

something so tremendous gone

26:05

through many levels. so

26:08

And so I wanted to write a book that

26:10

felt doable. so I wanted to write a

26:12

book that felt doable and

26:14

to pause from information and

26:17

to bring us. down,

26:19

neck neck down, into the heart,

26:21

into the body with these grounding

26:23

practices and one that But I

26:25

love sharing because it's so simple. because

26:27

it's so simple taking

26:29

three breaths. three breaths. So

26:32

in the book, I invite the

26:34

readers. the readers to to first find a

26:36

sense of grounding, feeling their sit bones

26:38

on the chair that they're on

26:40

or on the ground. that they're feeling their

26:42

feet the into the earth if the feet

26:44

are down. into the earth if

26:46

just allowing their body

26:48

to just allowing effort. to breathe

26:51

naturally without and then, if

26:53

it feels right, it feels right, to

26:55

inhale intentionally with the

26:57

word the word in. and

27:00

with the word out.

27:02

the word out. So in,

27:04

out, out, in, out, in,

27:06

out. And it's

27:08

just three breaths,

27:11

but I have found

27:14

out. And it's just

27:17

three breaths, but

27:19

I have found. And

27:22

it's just three

27:24

breaths. but I I

27:26

in my own life and I

27:29

ended my work with others with others be

27:31

a lot, like it could be

27:33

enough like settle us into a place

27:35

of feeling more grounded. a place

27:37

of feeling it's from

27:40

that place of grounding

27:42

it's from that place of grounding and

27:44

that we can better show up for

27:46

the moment. pause, that

27:48

we can better decisions about

27:50

what comes next. and make

27:53

intentional you offered

27:55

dozens of these. next.

27:57

somatic practices. breathing

28:00

practices and more different ways

28:02

of self-tending through touch and

28:04

massage and even with the

28:07

three breaths one of the

28:09

things I loved is at

28:11

some point in the book

28:13

you talked about softening with

28:15

each exhale as we do

28:17

it so we're breathing in

28:19

and then the exhale we

28:21

say soften. Yes. And I

28:23

noticed I did that as

28:25

I was reading and I

28:28

loved softening. with the exhale.

28:30

And I want to read

28:32

here a quote that also

28:34

gives people a practice that

28:36

I love. Our bodies are

28:38

our forever homes. We're worthy

28:40

of living in our homes

28:42

with comfort and ease. The

28:44

following is a compassionate phrase.

28:46

I often say to myself

28:49

when I struggle to feel

28:51

at home in my body.

28:53

And then the phrase is,

28:55

this is where I am

28:57

at. And I wonder if

28:59

you can tell us how

29:01

you practice with that phrase

29:03

when you're struggling to be

29:05

feeling at home in your

29:07

body. Yes, and I'll use

29:10

a very concrete example. So

29:12

after going through five pregnancies,

29:14

three that ended with living

29:16

children, two that ended in

29:18

loss, it's been hard to

29:20

come back to my pre-pregnant

29:22

weight, my non-pregnant weight. Very

29:24

concrete example. And... This is

29:26

within the context of our

29:28

culture that really promotes bouncing

29:31

back and just getting back

29:33

to your life quickly. So

29:35

I'm almost three years postpartum

29:37

Tammy after my most recent

29:39

pregnancy. I experienced a separation

29:41

of my abdominal muscles that

29:43

makes my belly so bulge.

29:45

So I'll still get many

29:47

comments from people like, or

29:50

are you expecting? And I'll

29:52

say no, I'm not. And

29:54

this is where I'm at.

29:56

That's what I'll say in

29:58

my mind. Like, this may

30:00

not... comfortable for me and

30:02

this is where I'm at.

30:04

And I don't feel ashamed

30:06

even though I don't know

30:08

and maybe I should but

30:11

I don't this is where

30:13

I'm at and so I

30:15

meet these moments for myself

30:17

where I would want something

30:19

different I'd like to get

30:21

there and I want to

30:23

have compassion for myself that

30:25

I'm doing my best and

30:27

this is where I'm at.

30:29

This notion of relating lovingly,

30:32

compassionately to our bodies, it

30:34

does seem that postpartum brings

30:36

up a certain set of

30:38

challenges around that, that you've

30:40

talked about one, which is

30:42

how our body appears to

30:44

other people, but it sounds

30:46

like it just brings up

30:48

a lot of challenges, especially

30:50

even being able to connect

30:53

back with our bellies after

30:55

a loss. feeling at home

30:57

in our forever home. And

30:59

I wonder if you can

31:01

just talk about that journey

31:03

for women and the women

31:05

that you work with. So

31:07

the belly, yeah, it's such

31:09

an intimate place on our

31:11

body. And what's interesting that

31:14

I noticed, I mean, other

31:16

resources for pregnancy and infant

31:18

loss, for womb loss, they're

31:20

so quick to tell us

31:22

to put our hands on

31:24

our belly. Now

31:26

if you've experienced this kind of

31:28

loss and if it felt traumatic

31:31

for you, that can be so

31:33

hard to do. I mean, the

31:35

act itself is simple enough, but

31:38

that can be very, very challenging

31:40

to bring touch to that place.

31:42

And so what I wanted to

31:44

do was to let people know

31:47

you don't have to touch that

31:49

place if it feels tender. And

31:51

you can take your time reconnecting

31:53

with that part of you. And

31:56

yeah, you can go out your

31:59

own pace. and you can do

32:01

in many different ways. Maybe it's

32:03

not physically touching, but I have

32:06

a section in each chapter called

32:08

Offering from the Collective, which I'm

32:10

one of the most, one of

32:13

the parts of the book I'm

32:15

most excited about, having healing and

32:17

health practitioners share their modality and

32:19

how that modality can apply to

32:22

womb-all survivors. And they all offer

32:24

different ways of connecting with the

32:26

womb space, and one can be

32:29

just hovering your hands in front

32:31

of your hands in front of

32:33

your womb. in front of your

32:36

belly and letting that be enough

32:38

or maybe breathing in and imagining

32:40

energy like loving energy flowing down

32:42

into the womb space. So I

32:45

think the term self-tending can be

32:47

really helpful for folks. It's a

32:49

term I came to in lieu

32:52

of self-care because I wanted something

32:54

that felt deeper, felt more substantive

32:56

and if you think of tending

32:59

a garden. There's a sense of

33:01

slowness and grounding and also a

33:03

reverence. You're with Mother Nature. So

33:06

yeah, encouraging people to be tender

33:08

with themselves and their bodies and

33:10

instead of like trying to do,

33:12

maybe just have that framework in

33:15

mind, I'm going to be tender

33:17

with my body and my womb

33:19

and see what where that leads

33:22

you. What grieving and healing looks

33:24

like for each of us is

33:26

so unique. So rather than give

33:29

you give concrete, you know, steps,

33:31

how about a framework? Just let's

33:33

be gentle. Let's tend. Let's tend.

33:36

I lean you and I were

33:38

talking before we started the recording

33:40

and you were sharing with me

33:42

that you went on a family

33:45

journey. to the East Coast to

33:47

record the audio book of To

33:49

Tend and to Hold. And you

33:52

said, I went with my three

33:54

living children and a couple times

33:56

you've referred to

33:59

your living children and

34:01

also shared that

34:03

you had you had

34:05

two wound loss experiences.

34:08

And I by using the

34:11

language of talking about your of

34:13

children, putting that word in,

34:15

children, putting that word in is

34:17

that a way for you? that

34:19

a way for bringing

34:21

awareness. awareness? and and honoring your

34:24

loss. hear I'd love to hear more

34:26

about that as a language construction and

34:28

kind of what it brings up

34:30

for you and what you imagine up for

34:32

people you're talking to as well. to

34:34

as well. a great question Tammy

34:36

and it's not a term adding adding

34:38

front of children. It's not something

34:41

I've always done. I've always done.

34:43

And have only done more recently. I've only

34:45

done think maybe that's part of

34:47

writing the book and my process

34:49

of grieving has evolved my process of grieving and

34:51

mourning. So yeah, at at this point I

34:53

I it, I use it quite

34:55

consistently to honor that I've experienced

34:57

pregnancy loss. to

34:59

bring attention to the fact

35:01

that I the that because it's

35:04

worth acknowledging. because it's worth You

35:06

see, you might see, if you see me in

35:08

person, might see I have three children. see I have

35:10

three But you won't know. you won't

35:12

also experienced loss. experienced loss. And so I

35:14

I do like to highlight

35:17

that now as a of

35:19

advocacy, this a way of activism. My

35:21

activism looks so different than when I

35:24

was in college. I'm not marching anymore

35:26

and I'm going to rallies. anymore and My

35:28

activism, I feel like it's a little

35:30

more quiet these days, but no less. more

35:33

quiet like to think no less

35:35

powerful or profound. to So planting the

35:37

seed or with that word

35:39

planting the sea with that word living. And

35:41

yeah, modeling for others that you can can do

35:43

that too if it feels right for

35:45

you. for you. And if it

35:48

doesn't, that's okay. that's okay. So I to

35:50

ask a question. question. You

35:52

know, without being sort of rude

35:54

or confrontational in any way,

35:56

but bringing forth something I forth something

35:58

I is in the...

36:00

collective like this, which is

36:02

like, okay, so there was

36:05

a womb loss at X

36:07

number of weeks. Why is

36:09

this person still grieving this

36:11

X number of years later?

36:13

Like, really? And so I'm

36:15

curious how you could help

36:17

respond to that voice in

36:20

a way that will help

36:22

educate someone who's internalized that

36:24

perspective in some way. Well,

36:26

what comes to mine as

36:28

I listen to that question,

36:30

Tammy, is my readers. So

36:32

to my readers, I would

36:35

say, what matters most is

36:37

what is meaningful to you.

36:39

So if that pregnancy has

36:41

a lot of meaning, I

36:43

encourage you to honor that.

36:45

In the face of situations

36:48

where you met with callous

36:50

remarks like that, you might

36:52

think and root into your

36:54

meaning and not pay any

36:56

heed. If you feel called

36:58

to do some educating, you

37:00

might use some words to

37:03

respond. You might say, no

37:05

matter how long I just

37:07

said the pregnancy, it meant

37:09

a lot to me. I

37:11

feel like oftentimes you may

37:13

not have the energy to

37:15

do that. Or you might

37:18

find yourself in a place

37:20

of shock or uncertainty. I

37:22

certainly did. When a really

37:24

close friend of mine had

37:26

told me, well, at least

37:28

it was very early. I

37:31

didn't know what to say.

37:33

And if that happens to

37:35

listeners, if that's the experience

37:37

you've had, no, that's okay.

37:39

You may not know what

37:41

to say in the moment.

37:43

You may think about it

37:46

afterward. and you may need

37:48

time to gain clarity about

37:50

what feels right for you

37:52

to do or say in

37:54

that moment. All the while

37:56

I encourage to honor what

37:58

is most meaningful to you

38:01

and trust that that may

38:03

be enough for you to

38:05

know that for yourself and

38:07

then when you meet others

38:09

who experience womb loss that

38:11

you might meet them with

38:14

the kind of care you

38:16

would have wanted. So I

38:18

mentioned to you that this

38:20

phrase womb loss that was

38:22

new to me that I

38:24

encountered in your work and

38:26

I want to make sure

38:29

that people aren't wondering at

38:31

this point. What exactly... Is

38:33

Eileen referenced? Right, so womb

38:35

loss is a term I

38:37

use to refer to pregnancy

38:39

and infant loss. So any

38:41

loss that has occurred during

38:44

a pregnancy or after a

38:46

living baby has been born.

38:48

It's a term I came

38:50

to know through the work

38:52

of Tammy Lynn Kent. She's

38:54

an amazing women's. pelvic floor

38:56

physical therapists based in Oregon.

38:59

And she has many wonderful

39:01

books and one of the

39:03

books I came to use

39:05

that phrase and it really

39:07

left a deep impression on

39:09

me. And going through pregnancy

39:12

and infant loss, wound loss

39:14

myself and wanting to support

39:16

survivors, other survivors. I knew

39:18

I wanted to center the

39:20

loss within us and of

39:22

us. acknowledging that this loss

39:24

occurred in your womb, in

39:27

this Oregon, the womb is

39:29

the uterus, it's the space

39:31

that a pregnancy will grow,

39:33

a child will grow, and

39:35

it's an amazing miraculous Oregon.

39:37

And to say, womb loss

39:39

to me feels like we're

39:42

honoring that this happened to

39:44

you and your body. And

39:46

the focus is not only

39:48

on the baby that died

39:50

or the pregnancy that ended

39:52

it. I think it affords

39:55

the reverence that I'm advocating

39:57

for with the book. And

40:00

so for me that's the introduction

40:02

I had to the term and it

40:04

really resonated with me and I

40:06

hope that with

40:08

helps others. that it helps

40:11

are looking for maybe are

40:13

looking for What have you found?

40:15

What is the most helpful

40:17

for people in the acute

40:20

part of the grieving

40:22

process. part of the few things.

40:24

process? A few things. Space.

40:26

So holding space, not trying to

40:28

rush them to the next thing,

40:31

the next decision that needs to

40:33

be made. to be made, but giving but giving

40:35

them a moment, giving them some

40:37

space, even if it's five minutes,

40:39

10 minutes. I'm thinking I'm thinking about

40:41

my first pregnancy loss experience and

40:43

the doctor who was with me.

40:45

who was with me. she did the did the

40:47

saw there was no longer it was no longer

40:49

a She stood there as I

40:51

began to began just cry but cry, but ball.

40:54

She She stood there in silence, tell me

40:56

for probably a good minute. a good

40:58

minute, before telling telling me that

41:00

she'll give me a moment alone

41:02

alone we begin to discuss. to discuss

41:04

might come next. next. And then

41:06

then when she came back, we discussed

41:08

options, she gave me time alone

41:10

again time consider. again to consider the options

41:12

and what felt right to me. So

41:14

to space, giving some

41:17

time. time for us to us to digest

41:19

the news it's, you you know, we're just

41:21

learning about the news. the news. And

41:24

I I keep coming back to the

41:26

word the word and I'm thinking of a

41:28

story of a cousin of mine a cousin of

41:30

mine who found out about her

41:32

pregnancy ending in an ultrasound

41:34

appointment. appointment. And

41:36

if you have an

41:38

ultrasound done by a

41:40

technician. a technician, There's a waiting period

41:42

between when that when that

41:45

does the ultrasound and when a doctor

41:47

comes in to interpret the results. to

41:49

interpret the so often

41:51

often. will sense something

41:53

as a miss. as a miss

41:56

from the technician, but

41:58

they have to wait. wait. until

42:00

that doctor comes in to

42:02

interpret those results. And my

42:04

cousin had shared that there

42:06

was that very difficult waiting

42:08

period. They were told the

42:10

news that the pregnancy had

42:12

ended spontaneously. And they were

42:14

told that it could take

42:16

their time, but the doctor

42:19

turned on the lights, closed

42:21

the door quite loudly, and

42:23

it was very jarring for

42:25

them. So I can't help

42:27

but think back to that.

42:29

memory she shared with me

42:31

and wondered, well, if there

42:33

was a sense of reverence

42:35

in the room, if the

42:37

providers had embodied a sense

42:39

of reverence, what could have

42:41

shifted? Maybe asking the couple,

42:43

would you like the lights

42:45

to remain off? We can,

42:47

being really tangible, we can

42:49

give you five more minutes

42:51

before the next patient needs

42:53

to come in, closing the

42:55

door softly, gently, gently. being

42:57

very trauma aware in that

43:00

way of setting clear expectations

43:02

for what can happen next

43:04

and limiting things that can

43:06

be very activating or jarring.

43:08

So I asked you about

43:10

the acute phase of grief

43:12

and one of the things

43:14

that you write about is

43:16

how there's no timeline and

43:18

I wonder If you could

43:20

say more about that, someone

43:22

who still finds themselves having

43:24

a grief response, you know,

43:26

perhaps years or even decades

43:28

later. Yeah. I'll say, I'd

43:30

say to them that's okay.

43:32

If you find that you're

43:34

feeling a lot of grief

43:36

that prevents you from living

43:39

your daily life, that can

43:41

be a good signal that

43:43

you need extra support. And

43:45

if that's not the case,

43:47

you feel grief and you're

43:49

still able to go about

43:51

your daily life, just for

43:53

the most part, fine, you're

43:55

still functioning. I want to

43:57

affirm for you that it's

43:59

okay to feel grief. It's

44:01

okay to feel grief 50

44:03

years. which I've heard from

44:05

survivors. This grief may not

44:07

necessarily ever go away. Grief

44:09

I define as a response

44:11

you feel to a loss

44:13

that is meaningful. So it's

44:15

neither good nor bad. It's

44:17

a response. So if you're

44:20

still responding to this loss

44:22

that feels meaningful, that makes

44:24

sense to me. What have

44:26

you found have been some

44:28

helpful rituals or... suggestions that

44:30

you've been able to provide

44:32

people that you work with

44:34

for ways of honoring this

44:36

sense of what and who

44:38

they've lost. One ritual that

44:40

comes to mind that I

44:42

share in the book is

44:44

lighting of candles. And I've

44:46

done this with clients who

44:48

are post-partum with living children

44:50

and have also experienced loss.

44:52

So lighting three candles, the

44:54

first candle, I'll light and

44:56

I'll say this is in

44:59

honor of the partner, if

45:01

there's a partner, and I'll

45:03

honor all that they've done

45:05

to support the the birthing

45:07

person. And the second candle,

45:09

light, and I'll say this

45:11

is honor of you, the

45:13

birthing person, the pregnant person.

45:15

And I'll share... words about

45:17

their journey and the resilience

45:19

they've shown. Then the third

45:21

candle often light and say

45:23

this is an honor of

45:25

all your children if they

45:27

feel like the pregnancy losses

45:29

were children or babies. I'll

45:31

say this is for your

45:33

living children and those who

45:35

are no longer with us.

45:38

And usually as simple as

45:40

that sounds it could land

45:42

so powerfully offering a moment

45:44

to pause and acknowledge. And

45:46

That's what I try to

45:48

do with the book with

45:50

all the practices that ritual

45:52

practices is to offer ones

45:54

that are pretty simple and

45:56

on the surface, but that

45:58

you can add layers and

46:00

deepen the meaning for yourself.

46:02

But my hope is that

46:04

people will intuit their way

46:06

to rituals that feel healing

46:08

for them, that feel comforting

46:10

for them. There were actually

46:12

one story that comes to

46:14

mind that's in the book.

46:16

We had driven all the

46:19

way up to Canada, to

46:21

Alberta. We were in Calgary,

46:23

and we were visiting with

46:25

another family who had experience

46:27

in their case infant loss.

46:29

And as we were leaving,

46:31

the husband had stopped and

46:33

said, I leaned, you want

46:35

a light of candle for

46:37

our losses? And I was

46:39

really quite surprised because we

46:41

didn't really have much conversation

46:43

about our losses. And I

46:45

said, yes. And they had

46:47

my second living child pick

46:49

out an incense sick, put

46:51

it on their altar where

46:53

they had an urn for

46:55

their baby who had died.

46:58

Yeah, they lit the incense

47:00

and we all just stood

47:02

there for a moment of

47:04

silence. And that was it.

47:06

It was not that that

47:08

was it in any minimizing

47:10

way, but simple and yet

47:12

profound. We all stood there

47:14

in silence for maybe a

47:16

few seconds really. Finding a

47:18

way that feels right for

47:20

you and your family to

47:22

grieve, to mourn to show

47:24

what you feel in response

47:26

to your loss, I think

47:28

whatever is most meaningful is

47:30

what matters. You've spent time

47:32

gathering with other women who

47:34

have gone through the grief

47:36

of wind loss. Tell me

47:39

about how a gathering like

47:41

that functions and how someone

47:43

could create one if they

47:45

felt inspired to. Yes. So

47:47

the gatherings that I had

47:49

organized were all intuition driven.

47:51

I invited guests to enter.

47:53

I had the luxury, the

47:55

privilege of hosting these and

47:57

beautiful homes in

47:59

Los Angeles. So

48:01

they would enter the home home there would

48:03

be a a beautiful dining table set. dining

48:06

would sit down and there

48:08

would be music playing that

48:10

was both emotional both emotional but also

48:13

also a sense of

48:15

warmth. a little and maybe a

48:17

little bit of hope and we would say our

48:19

sit down and we would say our

48:21

names and what drew us to be

48:23

there that evening. That was it. That was

48:26

was was it. that was it. it. And

48:28

And we would sit in silence as

48:30

each person took a turn took a turn

48:32

and they were welcome to share

48:34

what felt right for them. to share Then

48:36

we would be served by Then we

48:38

would chef who was there cooking

48:40

for us was there cooking for us

48:42

on site. And I'm so lucky for two lucky

48:45

dinners, two of my dinners, author

48:47

of the she's the author of

48:49

The First Forty Days, one

48:51

of the most seminal books

48:53

on postpartum care. care. She She runs

48:55

a company here in Southern

48:57

California called called So she catered

48:59

my first one first third dinner.

49:01

So she explained to my all

49:03

all these dishes meant for the

49:05

postpartum body, how it was

49:07

nourishing for them. for you may

49:09

not get Han not go to

49:11

your dinner. to go to you can

49:13

provide food that is intentionally that is

49:16

intentionally healing postpartum body

49:18

and you might share why you chose

49:20

that food. share why you chose that

49:22

food. my guess and I would would eat,

49:24

we would let would let conversation

49:26

be organic and and would

49:28

circle back to our

49:30

losses. circle back to our losses. And then there's

49:33

usually has been some kind

49:35

of ritual component. of with

49:37

my component with my event, we

49:39

walked to the pool that

49:41

was in the that was in We each

49:43

took an LED candle for

49:45

ourselves and one for each of

49:48

our losses. each of our losses.

49:50

in silence, we place those candles

49:52

in the pool. in the pool.

49:54

And that was the That

49:56

was the manifestation of that

49:58

vision I shared I shared you. at the

50:00

start of our conversation,

50:03

Tammy. Women gathered around

50:05

a body of water

50:07

at night to the

50:09

light of the full

50:11

moon gazing down at

50:14

numerous candles. Candles that

50:16

embodied their grief. And

50:18

so for those listening,

50:20

if you want to

50:22

create a gathering. I

50:24

encourage you to use

50:27

your intuition. It might

50:29

follow this format that

50:31

I have followed. I

50:33

think the sharing of

50:35

food that's postpartum specific,

50:38

and then doing some

50:40

kind of ritual, even

50:42

as something as simple

50:44

as lighting candles, and

50:46

just offering the space

50:49

and this time to

50:51

acknowledge, because acknowledgement can

50:53

be so healing, so

50:55

powerful, acknowledging the shared

50:57

loss. I've

51:00

been speaking with Eileen Rossetti.

51:03

She's the author of the

51:05

new book, To Tend and

51:07

to Hold, honoring our bodies,

51:10

our needs, and our grief

51:12

through pregnancy and infant loss.

51:14

And I mentioned this book

51:17

is written with such a

51:19

loving and attuned feeling tone

51:21

to the grieving person. It's

51:24

a kind of companion. Through

51:26

the loss process, what's your

51:28

hope, Eileen, for what your

51:31

dear readers will get from

51:33

to tend and to hold?

51:36

Well, for those who read

51:38

the physical book, I hope

51:40

that holding it, and I'm

51:43

holding in my hands as

51:45

I'm telling you those, Tammy.

51:47

It's hard cover, because sounds

51:50

true, believed in my vision.

51:52

I hope that they hold

51:54

this hard cover book. and

51:57

feel the validity. of

51:59

they are experiencing.

52:03

I I hope that

52:06

my readers feel feel seen, feel

52:08

held and feel honored

52:11

this this book exists

52:13

it. I hope you deserve

52:15

it. my readers I

52:17

hope it helps my

52:20

readers access any

52:22

grief that they're holding

52:24

in their bodies their

52:27

bodies encourages them bodies. to

52:29

feel into that their

52:31

their own way, their

52:33

their own time, what

52:36

in feeling what you

52:38

are holding on to

52:40

soften help soften, soften

52:42

those big feelings. And

52:44

in that softening, dear

52:46

readers, I hope that you

52:49

are able to live lives

52:51

that are meaningful, are are

52:53

not constrained by your

52:55

grief, your grief, but lives that integrate

52:57

your grief. lives that are

52:59

meaningful and and fulfilling. Eileen Rossetti, author of the

53:01

new book, To author of the

53:03

new book, Hold, To Hold.

53:05

Thank you so much. you, Tammy.

53:08

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