0:00

LinkedIn Presents. So in

0:02

our rapidly changing and

0:04

complex world it's just all

0:06

too easy to get caught up

0:08

in short-term thinking and quick

0:11

fixes that provide temporary relief

0:13

but really failed to create

0:15

lasting impact. But what if

0:18

there was a way to

0:20

step back to think strategically

0:22

and craft a vision that

0:25

could genuinely revolutionize everything from

0:27

your career to relationships, health,

0:29

and life, maybe even spark

0:32

a movement or transform an

0:34

entire industry. Turns out strategy,

0:37

it isn't just for business.

0:39

It's for life. And that's what we're

0:41

diving into today with an old friend

0:44

Seth Godin. So Seth is an

0:46

author, entrepreneur, and teacher who has

0:48

spent decades helping people find

0:50

clarity and take purposeful action.

0:52

In his latest book, this is

0:55

Strategy. Make better plans. Seth

0:57

challenges us to abandon outdated

0:59

systems and instant gratification in

1:01

favor of smart purposeful choices that shape

1:03

a better tomorrow. Seth is renowned for

1:06

his pioneering work in marketing and

1:08

leadership and changing the status quo.

1:10

He's written 21 bestsellers and also

1:13

founded several groundbreaking companies and really

1:15

inspired millions through his teachings on

1:17

everything from effective promotion to the

1:20

spread of world-changing ideas. In this

1:22

conversation, Seth and I, we explored

1:24

the vital role that strategy plays

1:27

in living your best life. And

1:29

we'll dive into his four key

1:31

threads of strategy, time, games, empathy,

1:33

and systems, and how weaving them

1:35

together can unlock new possibilities. So

1:38

whether you're an entrepreneur seeking to

1:40

make your dent in the universe

1:42

or simply want to approach your

1:44

personal journey with more clarity and

1:46

intention, this conversation will leave

1:48

you inspired and equipped with

1:50

practical wisdom. and deep thoughts.

1:53

So excited to share this

1:55

conversation with you. I'm Jonathan

1:57

Fields and this is Spark.

1:59

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3:39

So it's interesting. having this conversation

3:41

with you at this

3:43

point around some of the

3:45

topics that we're going

3:47

to dive into. So I

3:50

turned 58 last year

3:52

and it was an interesting

3:54

moment for me because

3:56

I was like, you know

3:59

what? I am spitting

4:01

difference from 60 now and

4:03

I started asking myself,

4:05

I've got this two -year

4:08

window now when I have

4:10

that milestone in my

4:12

life. So how do I

4:14

want to feel? How

4:16

do I want to feel

4:19

about me physically, my

4:21

relationships, about the work that

4:23

I'm doing in the

4:25

world? And I realized that

4:28

I wanted to feel differently

4:30

in all domains. And in that

4:32

moment, I started asking myself, how

4:34

will that happen? It's not that

4:36

anything is terrible, a lot of

4:38

stuff is awesome. But it's really,

4:40

you know, I'm about to

4:42

step into what I would consider a

4:44

new season and I want to

4:47

do it with intention. And so I

4:49

started to think, you know, like,

4:51

do I have a vision and do

4:53

I have a strategy for this?

4:55

And it's taken some time to both

4:57

develop and they're both very fluid.

4:59

So diving into your latest book was

5:01

just really interesting for me because

5:03

it brought up so many more things

5:05

to think about. And one of the

5:07

questions that really occurred to

5:09

me early on was when it

5:12

more broadly, when it comes

5:14

to doing this thing called life,

5:16

to living a good life,

5:18

do we actually need a strategy?

5:20

Or can we just let

5:22

it unfold? Or does it make

5:25

more sense to actually say,

5:27

like, no, I'm going to craft

5:29

something more intentional? So that

5:31

would be sort of my first

5:33

curiosity for you. What a

5:35

great place to begin. I

5:37

wrote this book for you. As

5:39

you know, I often have conversations

5:42

with people I care about. They

5:44

think they are asking for marketing

5:46

advice. It turns out they're actually

5:48

asking for strategy. The arc

5:50

of your 1000 plus episodes

5:52

is largely about two

5:54

things. One, the story we

5:56

tell ourselves about what

5:58

happens to us. our internal

6:00

expectations and narrative about

6:02

how the world is. And

6:05

two, our way

6:07

of creating a future that

6:09

we want to live in. And that

6:11

is what strategy is. It

6:13

is possible to live a

6:15

good life without intent to

6:17

simply accept, embrace, and

6:20

dance with what happens. But

6:22

it is easier, more productive

6:24

and more generous to do

6:26

that and also bring intent

6:28

to the change we seek to make. And to

6:30

do that, we need to

6:32

see and talk about strategy because

6:35

it's not just for MBAs

6:37

and generals, it's for anybody

6:39

who shows up in the world for

6:41

other people. It definitely

6:43

makes sense to me. And I've

6:45

tried both approaches, just letting

6:47

things happen and rendering and saying,

6:49

what will come will come. And

6:52

part of my work is

6:54

to just find peace with that,

6:56

to find joy in whatever

6:58

it is. And I think there's

7:01

a value to that also.

7:03

My sense is increasingly that unfolding

7:05

and intentional strategy are not

7:07

necessarily an either or. It can

7:09

be more of a yes

7:11

and. Correct. It's not

7:13

just yes and. It's essential that

7:15

we have both pieces of it. But

7:18

the phrase, don't play games. You can't

7:20

win has built into it the

7:22

semantics of what does it even mean

7:24

to win that there's the summer

7:26

unfolded more than 10 ,000 people went

7:28

to Paris to compete in the Olympics.

7:30

And only a few hundred of

7:32

them come close to winning what they

7:34

want. Does that mean the other

7:36

9 ,000 people are losers? Well,

7:38

they are if they want to

7:40

interpret not winning as losing. But

7:43

if the narrative is this journey

7:45

is its own reward, then

7:47

you can have both. It's

7:49

yes and yes. I am

7:52

seeking to have this victory. And

7:54

regardless of the outcome, I

7:57

can enjoy the journey. four

8:00

threads of strategy, time, games, empathy,

8:02

systems. I wanted to dive into

8:04

each one of them a little

8:06

bit individually because there's a lot

8:08

to be said about each one

8:11

of them but the timeline I

8:13

think jumps out especially at me.

8:15

Given the context, I just teed

8:17

up for myself because I gave

8:19

myself a very defined timeline and

8:21

it's not like, you know, God

8:24

willing, I'm gonna be around for

8:26

long past that birthday but there

8:28

was this really profound change in

8:30

the way that I thought about

8:32

how I'm gonna step into this

8:35

fixed time window compared to if

8:37

I just said, you know, I

8:39

just want these things to happen

8:41

and there's a tension that was

8:43

created and this is something that

8:45

you write about as well by

8:48

time bounding it and that really

8:50

led to thinking and action in

8:52

a way that I think is

8:54

much more deliberate than a lot

8:56

of things that I've done in

8:58

the past. Yeah, so many things

9:01

to unpack here. Time is nature's

9:03

way of making sure everything doesn't

9:05

happen and when we think about

9:07

our lives, we tend to focus

9:09

on what is right in front

9:12

of us, not what something might

9:14

become. So it's easy to write

9:16

off the iPhone because in the

9:18

first few weeks they didn't sell

9:20

that many. It goes on to

9:22

become the most successful consumer product

9:25

of all time but in the

9:27

first three weeks you couldn't tell

9:29

that. That an embryo of an

9:31

elephant weighs exactly the same as

9:33

an embryo of a person and

9:35

a blue whale but what do

9:38

they develop into? And so time

9:40

isn't easily judged in any given

9:42

moment. It is simply this other

9:44

dimension where things travel and what

9:46

that means is if you have

9:49

a project, whether it's opening a

9:51

yoga studio or trying to find

9:53

100 ,000 people to listen to

9:55

you online, none of those things

9:57

are gonna happen today but you

9:59

can establish the condition for them to happen over

10:02

time, if you can see time, talk

10:04

about time, put time to work

10:06

for you, not work against it.

10:08

And so one of the challenges

10:10

we have when we hit our

10:12

50s and our 60s is it's easy

10:14

to get into this mode of

10:17

working against time, and that

10:19

feels non-generative to me,

10:21

feels negative. The question

10:24

you could ask yourself if you're

10:26

a skier or surfer, is our

10:28

the last... couple hours of the day

10:30

better or worse than the morning,

10:33

right? Because a surfer who

10:35

says I only have a

10:37

few runs left is the

10:39

most likely to hurt themselves

10:41

because they're not approaching the

10:43

unfolding of the next series

10:46

of time windows the way they did

10:48

in the morning. And yet we

10:50

have that as a choice. We

10:52

can choose to treat the next

10:54

two years if you're 58, the way

10:56

you treated 24 to 26. And

10:58

when we can imagine that it's

11:00

not our last time at bat, we

11:03

probably enjoy it more. That resonates

11:05

a lot. And as a snowboarder

11:07

who lives in Colorado now, I

11:09

have had that very self-talk chatter

11:11

thing happen in my head when

11:13

it hits 3.30 and I know

11:15

the last run is at 4

11:17

p.m. And the list shut down and

11:19

I'm like, I'm feeling really tired.

11:21

I'd love to take another run

11:23

or two. But I know my

11:25

chance of doing something stupid or

11:27

just being too tired goes up

11:30

dramatically and I have just very

11:32

recently started packing it in a

11:34

little bit earlier and it's taken

11:36

me a lot of years to

11:38

learn that lesson knowing that this

11:40

is, you know, I have another

11:42

day tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. And in

11:44

the context of time also, I

11:46

often feel like we have a

11:49

distorted sense of time and Maybe

11:51

that changes with seasons of life.

11:53

Maybe it changes with external pressures

11:56

and expectations about what we're, quote, supposed

11:58

to be doing or who we should

12:00

be. But time, it doesn't feel

12:02

like this sort of thing that

12:04

is always the same. That I

12:06

feel like the way that we look

12:09

at it and experience it changes

12:11

our experience of it

12:13

pretty dramatically. Yeah, I mean, something

12:15

magical happens to the physics of

12:17

air travel because six hours on

12:20

an airplane feels a lot longer

12:22

than six hours doing something that

12:24

you really want to do. It's

12:26

the same six hours. One of

12:29

the things that people have a

12:31

lot of trouble with is opportunity

12:33

cost. If you choose to do

12:36

something, anything, you have now chosen

12:38

not to do a myriad of other

12:40

things. So there is a cost to every

12:42

hour we spend, because we can't get

12:45

it back. So if you are spending

12:47

an hour a day grooming your

12:49

social media accounts, while you

12:51

are doing unpaid labor for

12:53

social media companies, you are

12:55

not necessarily allocating time. in

12:57

a way that helps you

12:59

get to where you seek to go. But

13:02

it feels so urgent and dividing

13:04

the urgent from the important.

13:06

One of the things that comes

13:08

with maturity, three-year-olds are terrible at

13:10

this. They only do things that

13:13

are urgent. But over time, we

13:15

get into a rut, and we

13:17

find ourselves focusing on things that

13:19

have to be on our to-do

13:21

list today, never getting around to

13:23

the things that would actually support

13:25

the change we seek to make. So part

13:27

of this also I feel is tethered

13:29

to a question that you asked a

13:31

little bit further into the new book

13:34

and you asked it a couple different

13:36

ways also which I thought was really

13:38

interesting which is this question of

13:41

what do I want because I

13:43

think that determines so much of

13:45

how we invest ourselves and also

13:48

our experience of time doing this

13:50

and they also feel like we

13:52

are really terrible at answering

13:54

that question. What do I

13:56

want question comes up on this

13:58

podcast a lot? And it's hard

14:01

to put our arms around it

14:03

because it comes with responsibility. Because

14:05

wanting something puts you on the

14:07

hook, it makes you responsible for

14:09

the side effects of what happens.

14:11

And if it doesn't work, you

14:13

have to own the fact that

14:16

you said you wanted it and

14:18

you did not get it. It's

14:20

so much easier in the short

14:22

run to be a wandering generality

14:24

than to choose to be a

14:26

meaningful specific. And... Part of what

14:29

it is to be good at

14:31

strategy is to have people around

14:33

you that you can talk to

14:35

about this, to claim a version

14:37

of the future and have someone

14:39

reflect back to you. The opportunity

14:41

costs to come with that, the

14:44

risks to come with that, and

14:46

then encourage you because the thing

14:48

you're seeking to do is worth

14:50

doing. And if we don't do

14:52

those things, then we just turn

14:54

on Netflix and let tomorrow come.

14:57

It reminds me also of a

14:59

question that was posed to me

15:01

a couple years back. We had

15:03

a guy named Matthew Krosman on

15:05

the show who co-teaches a class

15:07

at Yale. I think it's called

15:09

the Life Worth Living. He's a

15:12

theology and divinity professor and he

15:14

posts this really interesting question or

15:16

variation of this question, which is

15:18

what's worth wanting. And this is

15:20

one of the questions that he

15:22

posted regularly to students that frustrates

15:24

the heck out of them. You

15:27

know, because it really gets underneath

15:29

it underneath it. And that's part

15:31

of what you're speaking to here.

15:33

It's like, okay, so we could

15:35

probably list out five things we

15:37

want, but the question of, are

15:40

those worth wanting? That's a whole

15:42

different thing, but it's also profoundly

15:44

important. Yes. Marketers are partly responsible

15:46

for so much of the on-we

15:48

that people of privilege feel, because

15:50

the easiest way to sell something

15:52

is to make people dissatisfied with

15:55

what they have. And it turns

15:57

out that the things people want

15:59

the most often are... the things

16:01

they need the least, that somebody

16:03

who has five handbags and is

16:05

dreaming of the sixth one does

16:08

not need a handbag. They just

16:10

need the feeling of being able

16:12

to acquire it. And when we

16:14

talk to people who have so much

16:16

less from a financial point

16:18

of view, as folks like you and

16:21

me, this does not come up

16:23

because there isn't some force, a

16:25

system, that is constantly

16:27

pushing them to want more. More

16:29

does not mean better. And so

16:32

when we make these choices of what

16:34

am I willing to work for, what

16:36

am I willing to trade time

16:38

today to get tomorrow, we haven't

16:41

done a very good job of

16:43

deciding what's worth it.

16:45

And that's, I think, one reason

16:47

why so many people who

16:49

shouldn't be unhappy are unhappy,

16:52

because they got sold this

16:54

idea that if they just got

16:56

one more thing, they would be happier.

16:58

But the thing isn't what's going

17:00

to make you happy. Yeah, I think

17:03

we all learn that. Well, you know,

17:05

we don't all learn that at some

17:07

point, but we get glimpses of it,

17:09

at least along the way. Parker Palmer

17:12

posed the question, I think, in a

17:14

really interesting way to me as well.

17:16

He said, he flipped it around. He

17:19

said, his question was, I'm going to

17:21

mess up the language here, but something

17:23

akin to what does my life want

17:25

for me or from me? kind of

17:27

I took it outside and said, well, this

17:30

is bigger picture. It wasn't sort

17:32

of what is the system within which

17:34

I live want from me, which we

17:36

can get into, because that's another one

17:39

of the questions that you asked. But

17:41

he's assuming that there's something that's a

17:43

part of me, but external to me.

17:46

What does my life want from it?

17:48

And I thought that was a really

17:50

interesting frame that got me thinking differently

17:52

as well. Yeah, no Parker is so

17:55

profound. Here's one way to think about

17:57

it. A lot of us have been trained.

18:00

to come to the conclusion that

18:02

we are who we are because our past

18:04

made us this way, that we are

18:06

simply the expression of all the

18:08

things that have happened. But a

18:11

different way to think about it

18:13

is maybe the future is counting on

18:15

us to do things so it can

18:17

arrive. We are not doing things because

18:19

the past made us. We are doing

18:22

things because the future asked

18:24

us to. And we'll be right back

18:26

after a word from our sponsors.

18:30

You fairly early on also

18:32

lay out kind of three

18:34

general things that most people

18:36

want broad categories affiliation status

18:38

and freedom from fear or

18:40

affiliation and I think we

18:42

get I think I get

18:45

You know kind of what

18:47

we want to associate with

18:49

other people around or the

18:51

communities and identity or whatever

18:53

the thing is the status

18:55

part were striving for that,

18:57

especially if we live somewhere

19:00

where everyone around you has something

19:02

that you feel you're not quite

19:04

living up to, and you're just

19:06

more, more, more, more. And freedom

19:08

from fear was really interesting.

19:11

I'm wondering what that really

19:13

deconstructs, too. Let's talk about

19:15

all three, because I think that

19:18

we can acknowledge them, but we

19:20

don't really understand how universal this

19:22

is. Affiliation is culture.

19:24

It is people like us do

19:27

things like this. It's the reason

19:29

we don't wear a tuxedo to

19:31

a pool party, because that's just

19:33

not what we do around here.

19:36

Affiliation isn't so much of

19:38

what we assume is true, except

19:40

it's only true because of who

19:42

we are surrounded by astronauts. We

19:44

would not do what we do

19:46

now. Not because of who we are,

19:48

but because of who we are

19:51

affiliated with. Status has nothing

19:53

to do with luxury goods. It's

19:55

much more subtle than that. If

19:58

we look at the history of a... a

20:00

bridal dowry, it goes back tens

20:02

of thousands of years. If we

20:04

think about how the first peoples

20:07

of Canada and the

20:09

United States, particularly in

20:11

the Pacific Northwest, developed

20:13

the tradition of potlatch

20:15

in which people would

20:17

compete with each other to see

20:20

how much they could give away. Giving

20:22

away your belongings is a

20:24

sign of status, because it means

20:26

that you can get more. that you're

20:29

not so poor. Status is everywhere

20:31

we look. The Godfather movies are

20:33

nothing but exchanging status every five

20:36

minutes, and you can learn a

20:38

lot just from the first scene

20:40

of the first movie. And the third

20:42

one predates culture. It's the same

20:45

thing that happens to spiders and

20:47

puppies and everything in between,

20:49

which is we are hardwired to not

20:51

want to feel afraid. That is

20:53

different than not exposing

20:56

ourselves to risk. Feeling afraid.

20:58

Those three things are what drive everybody

21:00

all the time. Once you have enough

21:03

to eat and your health is taken

21:05

care of, those are the three things that

21:07

we care about. It's kind of hard

21:09

to get away from them no matter

21:11

what we do or who we become.

21:14

Although I feel like part of life

21:16

is we're constantly trying to get to

21:18

a place where we get to opt

21:20

out of them and yet they're just

21:23

kind of built into our DNA. It

21:25

is what it is. It's more important

21:27

to just acknowledge that and work with

21:29

it. You spend a lot of

21:32

time talking about systems and understandably.

21:34

So everything is a system. We

21:36

live within nesting systems all around

21:38

us. When you talk about systems,

21:41

what are you actually talking about?

21:43

I could talk about nothing but

21:45

systems for the next 10 years. Let

21:47

me try to make it as simple

21:50

as I kept. Everyone knows what

21:52

the solar system is. There's the

21:54

sun. There are the planets, not Pluto,

21:56

but the rest of them. The planets

21:58

rotate around the sun. because they

22:00

want to, but because of

22:02

gravity. Gravity is an invisible

22:04

force that keeps the planets

22:07

doing what they're doing. The

22:09

sun exerts

22:12

a lot of force on the

22:14

planets. Once you understand the solar

22:16

system, now you can think about

22:18

the banking system. If you

22:20

go into a bank and say to

22:22

the manager, I would like a better

22:24

deal on a mortgage and you tell that

22:26

manager a whole story about why you

22:28

deserve it, it will not work because

22:31

the banker might even be your

22:33

next -door neighbor, but they are part

22:35

of a system much bigger than the

22:37

two of you. There are

22:39

forces on that banker that will

22:42

cause them to act in different ways. So

22:44

if we're going to get absurd, don't go

22:46

to an ATM if you're hoping

22:48

to get a muffin because no matter

22:50

how much you argue with the ATM, it is

22:52

not going to give you a muffin because it's

22:54

an ATM, it's part of a system. And

22:57

a lot of unhappiness,

22:59

particularly in our current age when

23:02

you're supposed to be, quote,

23:04

authentic and follow your purpose,

23:06

which I find ridiculous, a

23:08

lot of happiness comes from working

23:10

with the system and then being

23:12

surprised when the system does what

23:14

the system does instead of what

23:16

you want the system to do.

23:18

So when we pick the system we

23:20

are working with at some

23:23

level, picking the narrative of our

23:25

days. Yeah. I mean, it's both

23:27

the narrative of our days

23:29

and also we'll bring that word

23:31

status back into it, right?

23:33

Because status is baked into systems

23:35

and there's a packing order.

23:37

There's a way things that are

23:39

within a system and once

23:41

it gets big enough and installed

23:43

enough and entrenched enough, people

23:45

step into it and start to

23:47

make assumptions and build their

23:49

lives around it. Even if the

23:51

system has passed its expiration

23:53

date, we still just don't want to

23:55

rock it. It's like

23:57

just keep on keeping on. We

24:00

might want to rock

24:02

it, but culture will

24:04

keep pushing us back, because

24:06

culture is invented by

24:08

systems to maintain their status

24:11

quo. They don't want us

24:13

to point out that famous colleges

24:15

don't deliver better outcomes

24:17

than more efficient or lesser

24:19

known ways to become

24:21

educated, because all of the

24:24

forces of the system are

24:26

aligned to keep the system

24:28

the way the system was. That's what

24:30

attracted us to it in the first

24:32

place. That doesn't mean change can't happen. It

24:35

means we have to be aware that there

24:37

are forces in the system that

24:39

don't want the change to happen,

24:41

and that arguing more loudly

24:43

about why we are right

24:45

never changes the system. What changes

24:47

the system is when nodes in the

24:49

system, in their own self -interest,

24:52

decide that different decisions

24:54

will help them get to where

24:56

they want to go. We can

24:58

see enormous change happening in our

25:00

culture, picking something like gay

25:03

marriage as an example, or the

25:05

way just a few million

25:07

people change the Constitution of the United

25:09

States by joining the NRA. The

25:12

number of people in the NRA compared to

25:14

the number of people in this country is

25:16

tiny, but because they built

25:18

a system next to a different system and

25:21

reinforced it and reinforced it

25:23

persistently over time, offering

25:25

status and affiliation to

25:27

people who had a different

25:29

objective, you can change a

25:31

culture. It doesn't have to be

25:33

right or wrong. It can be

25:35

done, but it doesn't happen just because

25:37

you wrote a medium article and everyone

25:40

read it and said, oh, you're

25:42

right. Which also brings out the bigger

25:44

question, how exactly do we change

25:46

systems? And also, not that we necessarily

25:48

need to change all systems. There

25:50

are some systems, micro and macro, that

25:52

I think probably support the way

25:54

that we want to be and the

25:57

way we want to become, but

25:59

when we live it, in

26:01

a system and we realize that

26:03

this is actually not serving us.

26:05

And maybe it's not serving the

26:08

bigger community or culture. Also, the

26:10

collective really needs to change. You

26:12

talked about nodes. I know we've

26:14

had past conversations about your enduring

26:16

interest in the world of chocolate.

26:18

And you share these two really

26:21

fantastic stories in the book around

26:23

Sean Oskenozi. And also the guy

26:25

who started Tony's chocolate lonely. So

26:27

would you mind sharing the stories?

26:29

Because one, I love chocolate also,

26:31

as you know, but they're such

26:34

visceral examples of what this can

26:36

look like. I love talking about

26:38

chocolate. And in fact, I made

26:40

a collectible chocolate bar to go

26:42

with the book. There's only a

26:44

few thousand of them. Halloween is

26:47

a problem. It's a problem because

26:49

Hershey's and Nestles and others sell

26:51

cheap chocolate in bulk. That's what

26:53

people want to buy. There's a

26:55

system, a holiday system, a commercial

26:57

system all around this. And chocolate

26:59

employs some of the poorest people

27:02

on earth. Hundreds of thousands of

27:04

children in basically slave labor conditions

27:06

work to pick the cacao in

27:08

Ghana and the ivory coast that

27:10

is used to make cheap chocolate.

27:12

It also doesn't taste very good.

27:15

Sean Eskenozi, who was a lawyer,

27:17

saw that he had an opportunity

27:19

to make a contribution. So he

27:21

built a chocolate company and he

27:23

pays the farmers five times the

27:25

going rate, puts their kids through

27:28

private school, visits them every single

27:30

year in places like the Philippines

27:32

and Tanzania, does direct commerce to

27:34

without middle men, and I could

27:36

go on and on. He did

27:38

not seek to beat Hershey's and

27:41

Nestleys at the Halloween game. That

27:43

system is too big for someone

27:45

of his scale to make an

27:47

impact. What he did create. was

27:49

a system within that system. He

27:51

was one of the first bean-to-bar

27:54

chocolate makers in the world. Now

27:56

there are hundreds who are following

27:58

his model and doing so. similar

28:00

kind of work. Then jump across the

28:02

ocean to Tony. Tony was a

28:04

journalist in Holland, and he saw

28:06

what was happening with the slave

28:09

labor, and he wrote a series

28:11

of articles hoping to shame the

28:13

powerful companies and the politicians to

28:16

change. The system is resilient.

28:18

It found loopholes. It pushed

28:20

back. And he was frustrated

28:22

enough to start his own chocolate

28:24

company, called Tony's Chocolate

28:26

Lonely, called that because Tony

28:28

was lonely. being in the

28:30

dark talking about all these problems.

28:33

It's now 25% of all the

28:35

chocolate sold in the Dutch marketplace.

28:38

Again, not because he sought to

28:40

undo what the dominant players

28:42

were doing, but to find a

28:44

different smallest viable audience,

28:47

tell them a story that

28:49

resonated, give them the

28:51

scaffolding they needed to engage

28:53

with what he was doing, give

28:55

them something to talk about, and

28:57

so over time... It spreads. Yeah, I

28:59

mean, both of those are also

29:01

great examples of people operating within

29:03

a bigger system. It's almost like Gene

29:06

Sharp, who's no longer around, and

29:08

his deep work on nonviolent revolution. One

29:10

of the theories that stayed with me

29:12

so powerfully when I studied up on

29:15

his work was this notion that

29:17

when you're trying to make a really

29:19

big change in something, he said, the

29:22

primary goal can never be to

29:24

tear down the old thing. What you

29:26

need to do is focus on building

29:28

something new that is actually so much

29:30

better that it solves the problems

29:32

that it speaks to the pain

29:35

that is supporting and creating the

29:37

pillars that prop up the old

29:39

thing that people just come to

29:41

you and those pillars kind of

29:43

disintegrate under their own weight and

29:45

the whole thing crumbles under its

29:47

own weight. It wasn't about toppling

29:49

this big system which seemed completely

29:51

late to me. Let's just start

29:53

something new that is so much

29:55

more appealing that speaks to people's

29:58

hearts and minds in a way.

30:00

start to transfer over to it.

30:02

And maybe it's the old system

30:04

that never actually topples, but at

30:06

least you've got an alternative built.

30:08

And that sounds kind of like

30:11

what they did. Yeah. And if we think

30:13

about Sal Khan, the Khan Academy

30:15

every day teaches more people in

30:17

one day than Harvard University has

30:19

taught in 400 years. And if

30:21

you're looking for the status that

30:24

comes from being the president of

30:26

Harvard, you don't get that by running

30:28

the Khan Academy. But if

30:30

you're looking to find underserved

30:32

people and give them a

30:34

path, then over time, you'd start

30:37

to add up and it

30:39

eventually shifts things, things

30:41

change. Now, every course at

30:43

MIT is available online for

30:45

free. That wouldn't have happened

30:48

if it hadn't been for

30:50

Salcon. I mean, this all

30:52

speaks to this sort of

30:54

med level set of assumptions.

30:56

And this is one of the

30:58

other things that you write about,

31:00

that you describe them as the

31:02

myths of the system. These two

31:04

polers, one that you have unlimited

31:06

power, and the other that you

31:08

have no power. And I feel

31:11

like most people within a system,

31:13

even if they see and want

31:15

something different for themselves or for

31:18

the broader whoever is within

31:20

that system, they tend to default

31:22

to the I have no power part

31:24

of it. I can actually, I'm not

31:26

capable of affecting change, so why

31:28

bother? So, you know, let me just put

31:31

my head down and just ride things

31:33

out. Right. And your take is actually,

31:35

neither of those things is true. One

31:37

of my favorite autobiographical stories, I don't

31:40

tell many, happened to me when I

31:42

was 23 years old. I had my

31:44

first real job. I was in summer

31:46

between years of business school. Flew out to

31:48

Boston where I didn't know very many

31:51

people. Coming at 30 employees, I

31:53

was a summer intern. Try to think

31:55

back, there's no voicemail, there's no email,

31:57

there are no fax machines. I walk

31:59

into... the office on the first day

32:01

and they have a plastic carousel

32:03

that's round with 50 slots in it.

32:06

So if you're out for lunch and someone

32:08

calls you, they write on one of

32:10

those pink while you are outslips a

32:12

message and they put it in this in

32:14

your slot. Now the names on the

32:17

slots are not in alphabetical order

32:19

because people didn't all join the company

32:21

at once. So I walk in my

32:23

first day, I see this thing and I thought...

32:26

I'm going to be here for 60 days. There's

32:28

no way I'm spinning this thing two or three

32:30

times a day looking for my name. So I

32:32

reach over and I take a paper clip out

32:34

of the receptionist's bin and

32:36

I put the paper clip next to my

32:38

name. The theory being I could spin to

32:41

my paper clip doesn't cost anybody anything.

32:43

In fact, if you're too away

32:45

from the paper clip, it'll make

32:47

life easier for you. Within a week, the

32:49

carousel is festooned with pipe

32:52

cleaners, different colored-colored paper clips.

32:54

The system. evolves. And if

32:56

I had tried to call a

32:58

meeting, I don't know, with the

33:00

head of the office and said,

33:03

may I please put a paper

33:05

clip here, it would have been

33:07

a waste of everyone's time. But

33:09

we can make tiny little

33:11

adjustments to the systems that

33:14

are around us if they're built

33:16

with the intent that over

33:18

time, the system will respond

33:20

by evolving. Yeah, I mean,

33:23

oftentimes it's the intent and...

33:25

It's the, let me run a quick

33:27

little experiment here. Not even tell anyone

33:29

or ask for buy in with this,

33:31

but nobody's going to complain. And it's

33:34

not going to be a big deal.

33:36

Let me just do this little thing

33:38

and see what happens. And I feel

33:40

like that's so often how change starts.

33:42

You know, one of the other things

33:45

I think is really interesting that you

33:47

describe is when we exist within systems.

33:49

that decisions we think we're making decisions

33:51

like this is my choice you know

33:53

capital m y my choice but the

33:56

system really influences the decisions

33:58

that we make the

34:00

choices that we make. And this

34:02

has recently had a chance to

34:04

sit down with Robert Sapolsky and

34:06

patted around his notion of that

34:08

book is incredible. Oh my God,

34:10

and he's not just like, you know,

34:13

we mostly don't have free will.

34:15

He's like, it doesn't exist. And

34:17

it just did not want to believe

34:19

that with everything in me. And

34:21

every time I kept coming back with

34:23

an argument, he was like, yes.

34:25

And I'm like, oh yeah, you're

34:27

right, aren't you. But it's amazing

34:30

if you think about the fact

34:32

that we exist within these systems

34:34

But when we think we have

34:37

just complete free will to be

34:39

who we are Do we want

34:41

to do and decide what we

34:44

want? You know deciding these systems

34:46

reality is? We don't and sometimes

34:48

profoundly influenced by what is

34:50

in service of just supporting

34:52

the status quo. That's right,

34:54

but we do get We

34:57

still, many of us, have

34:59

the agency to walk away from

35:01

systems that don't serve us. So

35:03

a high school senior says, should

35:05

I go to Princeton or Yale?

35:07

They're not adding to the equation.

35:09

Should I take a gap year and

35:11

go to India to help Acumen

35:13

doing X, Y, or Z? Or

35:15

should I skip going to college altogether?

35:18

It's not even on the agenda

35:20

because of the power of

35:22

status and affiliation. So part of

35:24

what happens. when we reveal the

35:26

systems is our choice set increases.

35:29

And part of what Sapolsky, I

35:31

think, is arguing is that

35:33

we do have the ability, once

35:36

we see systems that reinforce

35:38

caste or that reinforce inequity

35:41

when it comes to health or

35:43

whatever, we actually can do something

35:45

about it, but if we don't

35:48

do something about it, we

35:50

shouldn't be surprised that the

35:52

world doesn't change. I mean, the

35:54

curiosity for me around that

35:57

is that it's around optionality.

35:59

It's like if the system

36:01

is going to consistently put a

36:04

certain set of options on your

36:06

menu, how do we even become

36:08

aware of the possibility of options that

36:10

the system will never offer us

36:12

so that we can put them on

36:15

our menus and then say that?

36:17

You know, like that is not an

36:19

easy thing to do. It's really

36:21

difficult because you have to give

36:23

up status and affiliation. And

36:25

the reason you haven't done it

36:27

yet. It's because that's very. Scary.

36:29

The status we're giving up isn't

36:32

the status that I won't be able

36:34

to feed my family tomorrow, because

36:36

most people who listen to

36:38

this podcast have options that

36:40

can feed their family. It is,

36:42

what will I tell myself, my neighbors,

36:45

my spouse, what will I tell the

36:47

world that I got off this merry-go-round?

36:49

So many lawyers are unhappy being lawyers,

36:51

but they can't get over the sunk

36:54

cost that they went to law school.

36:56

They can't get over what would happen.

36:58

What would happen? if they announced that

37:00

they're not going to do that

37:02

anymore. So they believe their only

37:04

options are big firm or little

37:06

firm, not you don't have to be a

37:08

lawyer. Yeah, I mean, loss aversion is real,

37:11

right? It is amazing how much of

37:13

a lie is and our decisions it

37:15

drives. We just don't want to give

37:18

up what we have. If we've been

37:20

fortunate enough to attain something and status

37:22

being one of those things and affiliation

37:25

as well, And it does drop us

37:27

into the fear zone, you know. If

37:29

I'm not X, what will I be?

37:31

And I don't want to keep coming

37:34

back to people who have

37:36

backgrounds like you and me

37:38

being a special case. So

37:40

I did work with Acumen

37:42

in Kenya. And approximately one

37:44

third of the farmers that

37:46

I was working with were going

37:48

to the marketplace to spend 20

37:51

to 30 dollars a year to

37:53

buy seeds for their farm. If

37:55

you buy $30 worth of seeds, you

37:57

will make a profit of $3,000.

37:59

If you use farm saved seeds,

38:02

which are the seeds that you

38:04

saved from last year, so you

38:06

just take the corn you've got

38:08

and plant it again, you break

38:10

even for the year. And yet,

38:13

one-third of the farmers bought better

38:15

seed, two-thirds did what their parents

38:17

did. It's not that they didn't

38:19

know. They could see their neighbor

38:21

growing enough corn to make thousands

38:24

of dollars, but they didn't do

38:26

it. They had a narrative of

38:28

affiliation and status based on their

38:30

parents and their grandparents and their

38:32

great-grandparents. So they were seeking something

38:35

and finding it, which is the

38:37

solace of not being responsible for

38:39

a new choice outside of the

38:41

system they were used to. They

38:43

weren't stupid. They weren't wrong. They

38:46

were human. And people do exactly

38:48

the same thing when they buy

38:50

a cyber truck. We're just making

38:52

decisions based on the culture around

38:54

us. And our... endless quest to

38:57

not die, to find status, and

38:59

to be part of something. Yeah,

39:01

I feel like so many of

39:03

us are driven by a sense

39:05

that we want to experience freedom,

39:08

however we might define that freedom,

39:10

but we also want to belong

39:12

at the same time. And sometimes

39:14

there's tension there. You know, it's

39:16

one of the things that you

39:19

speak to. I think your language

39:21

is something like freedom comes with

39:23

responsibility. And so we deny our

39:25

agency as a part of that

39:27

equation. Yes, and a couple times

39:30

you've mentioned tension, and I need

39:32

to keep arguing that part of

39:34

what we do if we seek

39:36

to make a change happen is

39:38

we create tension on purpose, that

39:41

our job is to create tension.

39:43

If I want to shoot a

39:45

rubber band across the room, I

39:47

have to pull it backwards first.

39:49

And so it's the tension of

39:52

foam mall. It's the tension of

39:54

do you see the system. It's

39:56

the tension. of this might not

39:58

work and to People who mean

40:00

well, when they have the chance

40:03

to create this generous tension, fail

40:05

to do so. And the intent

40:07

of making things better, not with

40:09

selfish intent, but we have to

40:11

create the tension. So what's your

40:14

sense of why we back away

40:16

from that? Is it just psychologically

40:18

uncomfortable for most of us to

40:20

a point where we just don't

40:22

want to feel that? Let me

40:25

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40:58

backsl LinkedIn. Will

41:00

AI improve our lives or exterminate

41:03

the species? What would it take

41:05

to abolish poverty? Are you eating

41:07

enough fermented foods? These are some

41:10

of the questions we've tackled recently

41:12

on the next big idea. I'm

41:14

Rufus Griskem and every week I

41:17

sit down with the world's leading

41:19

thinkers for in-depth conversations that will

41:21

help you live, work, and play

41:23

smarter. Follow the next big idea

41:26

wherever you get your podcasts. That

41:33

was only seven seconds, Jonathan. I felt

41:35

the tension. You probably did two. Seven

41:37

seconds of silence. It's hard. And we

41:39

don't want to sit in the tension.

41:42

We don't want to sit in Zazan

41:44

for four hours without speaking. You know,

41:46

one of the things I do sometimes

41:49

in workshops, 20 people around the room,

41:51

they've been working together for a year.

41:53

And I hand out index cards. And

41:55

I say, on my way here, I

41:58

got a call, I don't know. Bill

42:00

Gates or somebody and he said he's

42:02

got this great new project, $200,000 a

42:04

person budget, it's a three months sprint, you're

42:07

in charge, you get to pick any three

42:09

people in the room to be on the

42:11

team with you, write down their names. And

42:13

I said, I don't want to look,

42:15

just write down their names. And there's

42:17

all this discomfort in the room. And I

42:20

say, okay, question number one. How many

42:22

people think the same names came up

42:24

over and over and over again? And

42:26

if people are telling themselves the truth,

42:28

they will have to acknowledge that that's

42:30

the case. I said, second question, how

42:33

many of you think your name came up a

42:35

lot? And I said, and the third question

42:37

is, if you knew this exercise was going

42:39

to happen in three months, would you

42:41

change how you show up for this team in

42:43

the next 90 days? Not because it's

42:45

a competition, but because it's an

42:47

opportunity. So everything I did for

42:49

the last minute is just about

42:52

creating tension. Being left out, moving

42:54

up, moving up. all of the

42:56

things we're afraid of. And what

42:58

most people in most organizations say

43:00

is if they had their druthers,

43:02

the names would be evenly distributed

43:05

and it's not fair. We're not here

43:07

to compete. But in a world

43:09

of limited time and limited

43:11

resources, at some level, we

43:13

are competing for the chance to

43:15

contribute. And developing the ability

43:17

to create that tension in a

43:20

way that helps other people

43:22

is what change agents do. Yeah,

43:24

I mean that's also circling back

43:26

to the beginning of our conversation

43:28

that also speaks to Why I

43:30

think I've taken more action on

43:33

my sort of like two-year quest

43:35

because there's time bounding You know

43:37

it created that tension for me.

43:39

It's entirely self-created like I could

43:41

just push it back a month

43:44

or six months or a year

43:46

sure of course, but for me

43:48

There's something in me that said this

43:50

is sacred like this is the end

43:52

point And there was that time bounding,

43:55

just like you said, the 90

43:57

days thing. You know, you're doing

43:59

the exercise. It does create

44:01

that reframe around tension that

44:03

can actually be generative fuel

44:05

because I think we often

44:07

just experience it as this

44:09

is something that's negative that

44:11

needs to be eliminated. Yeah,

44:13

but a life without tension

44:15

gets really dull really fast.

44:17

And we'll be right back

44:20

after a word from our

44:22

sponsors. You

44:24

offer up a really interesting concept

44:26

in this latest book as well,

44:29

nostalgia for the future. It kind

44:31

of ties a bit into what

44:33

we're talking about here because we

44:35

have these dreams, these outcomes that

44:37

we want to manifest. This change

44:39

that we want to happen. So

44:42

take me into this concept because

44:44

I thought I was really fascinating.

44:46

So the origin of nostalgia is

44:48

homesickness, going back to the place

44:50

you're from. We solved that problem

44:53

with the bus. So it shifted

44:55

to yearning for where you used

44:57

to be time-wise, the eight-track cassette

44:59

tips or whatever it was. But

45:01

many of us feel a nostalgia

45:03

for a future we dreamed of

45:06

that now isn't going to happen.

45:08

And so one of the things

45:10

that causes so much pain with

45:12

climate is people in their 40s

45:14

or 50s or 60s are realizing

45:16

that the life they're leaving their

45:19

kids isn't what they dreamed. it

45:21

was going to become. And one

45:23

of the challenges that we have

45:25

when we look at the future

45:27

with clarity is it never matches

45:30

up with our nostalgia for what

45:32

the future could have been. Okay,

45:34

that happened. Now what are we

45:36

going to do about it? Now

45:38

that we know the structure of

45:40

the systems, now that we know

45:43

the game that we are playing

45:45

and the things that are on

45:47

offer, where do we have the

45:49

leverage to lean into at least

45:51

guide that future to what it

45:54

could be, not what we just

45:56

hoped it would be. And I

45:58

wonder if one of the things...

46:00

stops us often is what goes

46:02

back to one of those three

46:04

qualities the fear side of it

46:07

you know one of the big

46:09

fears so many and it's a

46:11

fear tied to affiliation is fear

46:13

of being judged you know again

46:15

this is something you speak to

46:17

but the question that you pose

46:20

in the context of this when

46:22

you write about it is how

46:24

do you decide who has the

46:26

power to judge you which I

46:28

think is a really interesting reversal

46:30

of the way that most people

46:32

experiences. Yeah, so for

46:34

me, people in high school thought

46:37

I was obnoxious, and I probably

46:39

was. And in high school, you have

46:41

no choice. You're going to get

46:43

judged by people who are 16,

46:45

who have short attention spans and

46:47

are generally jerks. But once we're

46:49

done with high school, we have a whole

46:52

set of choices about who will judge

46:54

us. About 12 years ago, I

46:56

made the decision. never to read

46:58

another Amazon review. Not because I

47:00

didn't want my writing to get better,

47:02

but because I've never met an author

47:05

who said all those one-star reviews I

47:07

read made me better at writing. Because

47:09

all a one-star review is, is someone

47:11

announcing that the book you wrote

47:13

isn't for them. Because if you

47:15

had any five-star reviews, it's not

47:18

about the book at this point. It's

47:20

about who it's for. Now if I

47:22

say to myself... Don't read any one-star

47:24

reviews. I also have to say don't

47:26

read any five-star reviews. Don't read any

47:29

reviews whatsoever. By forgiving everyone

47:31

who has spent the time to

47:33

write a review and saying, that's

47:35

your experience, but I don't need to hear

47:38

it, I freed myself up to find

47:40

other people who I would listen to,

47:42

who weren't anonymous folks who I would

47:44

never be able to ask a question to,

47:46

but were actually people in the

47:49

audience I was trying to serve colleagues

47:51

professionals. When we pick

47:53

our critics, we pick our

47:55

future. And if you look at anybody

47:57

who has a fashion sense... They

48:00

didn't develop their fashion sense by

48:02

listening to people who wanted them

48:04

to fit in and wear beige

48:06

lands and clothes. They did it

48:09

by ignoring those people. And so

48:11

I'm not saying that we should

48:13

be arrogant and ignore culture. I'm

48:15

saying when we have to choose

48:17

who we're going to listen to

48:20

in all of the choices that

48:22

we are making. Yeah, I mean,

48:24

and when you at the beginning

48:26

of what you just said, you

48:29

said... It's not that I don't

48:31

want to be a better writer,

48:33

the data that the potential critics

48:35

out there, the universe of critics,

48:37

especially in this one domain, they

48:40

wouldn't have helped you with that

48:42

goal, with that aspiration, which also

48:44

brings us to the conversation around

48:46

feedback and feedback loops, because we

48:48

do want feedback to improve ourselves

48:51

and improve the system to create

48:53

something new and better. So there

48:55

are data points where people are

48:57

systems or structures, contributors. that we

49:00

do actively want to seek that

49:02

input from, because that lets everything

49:04

get better. And sometimes it's really

49:06

hard to figure out what gets

49:08

led into the feedback system. Okay,

49:11

so I need to decode what

49:13

you're saying, because feedback loop has

49:15

a terrible name. We're not talking

49:17

about feedback loops. We're going to

49:19

get to feedback loops in a

49:22

second. Feedback, advice, insight. That is

49:24

something that we can choose to

49:26

seek out to get better. So

49:28

if you have a new idea,

49:31

if you have the first draft

49:33

of a book, if you have

49:35

a new plan, don't ask an

49:37

amateur, don't ask someone you're married

49:39

to, don't ask your in-laws, don't

49:42

ask somebody who just wants you

49:44

to be happy. None of those

49:46

people are going to give you

49:48

useful insight into whether or not

49:50

you are onto something. We need

49:53

to hide what you're doing from

49:55

those people. until it's ready to

49:57

show them. And instead you need

49:59

a circle of people who have

50:01

a combination of domain expertise and

50:04

empathy to tell you what you

50:06

need in this moment. It took

50:08

me a long time to get through that.

50:10

But now, feedback loops. Systems

50:13

maintain themselves through feedback

50:15

loops. There are two kinds and

50:17

they have nothing to do with

50:20

advice or criticism. The two kinds

50:22

of feedback loops are the feedback

50:24

loop of a thermostat, which is

50:26

negative feedback feedback feedback in that.

50:29

If the room gets too hot,

50:31

it makes it colder. If it

50:33

gets too cold, it makes it warmer.

50:35

That's a feedback loop that keeps

50:37

things stable. And this is one

50:39

of the best things about

50:41

democracy, that a well-functioning

50:44

dictatorship is actually quite

50:46

effective, except it's hard to stop

50:48

it when it stops being well-functioning.

50:52

Democracy has this built-in thing

50:54

that makes it way less efficient,

50:56

but keeps it within bounds. Other

50:58

kind of feedback loop, a

51:01

positive feedback loop, isn't always

51:03

positive. If you're at a wedding

51:05

and the DJ holds their mic up

51:07

too close to the speaker, you hear

51:09

that loud noise. That loud noise is

51:12

caused by sound being amplified,

51:14

being amplified, being amplified,

51:16

being amplified, until it's

51:19

a shriek. There are positive feedback

51:21

loops that can grow

51:23

a social media company

51:25

dramatically. because the network effect leads

51:27

to more people, which leads to more

51:29

people, which leads to more people. So based

51:31

on the change we seek to make, we

51:33

need to make sure we build in

51:36

these thermostats, these negative feedback loops to

51:38

keep us in the center of the

51:40

road, to keep us from bumping into

51:42

the guardrails as we drive. And there

51:45

have definitely been social movements that have

51:47

failed because they did not do that.

51:49

Because everyone's piling on the

51:51

vegan community that won't eat avocados,

51:53

because slave bee labor. is pollinating

51:55

the avocado trees. If you just

51:57

keep pushing too far in one

52:00

direction, you're going to lose

52:02

the point of what you

52:04

were trying to do in the

52:06

first place. And you are

52:08

looking to build these nascent systems

52:10

so that a little success

52:12

leads to more success, that it

52:15

becomes a positive feedback loop.

52:17

So here's your podcast, more than

52:19

a thousand episodes. Far

52:21

more people listen now than listen to

52:23

episode 10. That didn't happen because

52:25

you bought a bunch of ads. It

52:27

happened because the people who listen told other

52:29

people. So you had stickiness

52:31

and you also had virality. It

52:33

spreads and it grows. That

52:36

is what happens when we put

52:38

a positive feedback loop to work.

52:40

I love that. And I feel

52:42

it also slides us into one

52:44

of the topics that you speak

52:46

to. That's been a fascination of

52:48

mine. And this is part of

52:51

the four threads of strategy for

52:53

you. It's games. It's the notion

52:55

of the infinite versus the finite

52:57

game and this idea

52:59

of are you playing a game

53:01

to win or are you playing a

53:03

game because you never want it to

53:05

end? Yes. And as

53:08

soon as we say games, some

53:10

people roll their eyes. Some people

53:12

hate board games. They want nothing

53:15

to do with things that feel

53:17

like a game. It doesn't feel

53:19

that it's serious enough. And when

53:21

Kelly talks about games, when we

53:23

talk about game theory, we are

53:25

not talking about monopoly, which is

53:27

a terrible board game. What we

53:30

are talking about is any

53:32

situation where there are players and

53:34

rules and outcomes. And

53:36

when we call whatever we're

53:38

doing a game, first of all, it

53:41

makes us a little bit lighter on our feet because

53:43

we don't have to take ourselves so damn

53:45

seriously. Two, we

53:47

can use what we learned from game theory to

53:49

do better at it. And three, we

53:52

can talk about the systems

53:54

because games understand this. It doesn't

53:56

matter how much your queen really

53:58

wants to kill their king. they're

54:00

not allowed because there's

54:02

a rule. So when I think about

54:04

the game of how does somebody get

54:07

elected dog catcher, the game

54:09

of how do we change

54:11

the pet shelter system so

54:13

that it doesn't lead to

54:15

all this euthanasia, the game

54:17

of how do we use

54:19

the systems we have to

54:21

address the climate, these are all

54:23

games. And they're serious

54:25

games, but they're games that

54:28

can be seen and played. And

54:30

then to your point, and I'll stop

54:32

granting, some games are finite.

54:34

These are games with a timer and

54:36

a scorecard and someone's going

54:39

to win. And other games are

54:41

infinite. Playing catch with your grandchild

54:43

is not a finite game. You're

54:45

not trying to win catch. You were

54:47

playing catch just to play it.

54:50

Yeah, I love that. It's funny

54:52

as you're describing that. Also, I had

54:54

this strange flashback to a million years

54:56

ago when I was in first

54:58

year of law school and had that

55:01

classic contracts professor that you read

55:03

about, you know, in one hour. It

55:05

was everybody, you know, nobody sat down

55:07

until you were weeping, me included.

55:09

And you're just absolutely destroyed. And one

55:12

day, about halfway through the year,

55:14

something just kind of clicked in my

55:16

brain. And I'm like, oh, wait. This is a

55:18

game. This, you know, he's, he

55:20

doesn't actually care about me personally.

55:22

Like, this is not personal for

55:25

him. He's just playing the game.

55:27

He's a role in a game

55:29

with a certain system and a

55:31

structure and rules. And I

55:34

was like, what is the game here?

55:36

And literally, as soon as I

55:38

started, like, feeling that, and speaking

55:40

to the lightness that you mentioned,

55:42

as soon as I said, oh,

55:44

this isn't just a game, I

55:47

was like, oh. I can't even stand

55:49

up again next week and be

55:51

blasted by him and it's just

55:53

a game. And it just completely

55:56

refrained the way that I stepped

55:58

into or the frame of it. And it

56:00

made the whole thing just like, oh,

56:02

I'm not afraid of this anymore. It

56:05

doesn't devastate me anymore. In fact, I

56:07

got kind of curious about it. And

56:09

I'm like, well, how can I figure

56:11

out the rules here? And who are

56:13

the other players here? Like, what is

56:16

the system I'm functioning in? And that

56:18

happened to be more of a finite

56:20

game than an infinite game. I was

56:22

kind of happy, not necessarily to win

56:24

it, but for just to be over.

56:27

I love this story. This is a

56:29

great story Jonathan. What happened to me

56:31

at business school, I didn't have the

56:33

focus or frankly the time to do

56:35

the 10 pages of spreadsheets that were

56:38

at the back of every business school

56:40

case. But I realized that if you're

56:42

running case study, you need to get

56:44

through the case and there are certain

56:46

people you need to be able to

56:49

count on who have run the numbers.

56:51

I'm going to be one of the

56:53

people you can count on. who will

56:55

say something surprising about the personalities of

56:57

the people involved. And once I realize

57:00

I could be of service to the

57:02

professor and the class by being a

57:04

specialist in that, I only read the

57:06

first three pages of every case from

57:08

then on. I developed a vivid opinion

57:11

about some of the personalities and made

57:13

it clear that they called on me

57:15

for the numbers, I would say, I

57:17

have no idea. And by playing that

57:20

role in that system, I helped the

57:22

professor, but I also got what I

57:24

wanted. I love that. One of the

57:26

questions that I think relates to the

57:28

role that we play in these games

57:31

and these systems, and also just the

57:33

way that you and I look at

57:35

these games, I look at the systems

57:37

also, just broadly in the context of

57:39

life. Like our life is a system

57:42

and we're in nesting systems and there's

57:44

a relationship system, there's a contribution system,

57:46

there's all these different systems and There

57:48

are games that we play within each

57:50

one of those systems. And as we

57:53

just said, choosing the role that you

57:55

play, it's a really interesting question too.

57:57

And I would

57:59

imagine that it also

58:01

changes over time

58:04

as we learn more about ourselves

58:06

in the system, the life that

58:08

we want to create for ourselves

58:10

and for those around us. In

58:12

that context, you ask a really

58:14

fascinating question, which is, what

58:16

do you make? The way that you

58:18

spend your time, your money, your effort, does

58:21

it actually support

58:23

how you would answer that question? And

58:25

I thought that was a really interesting

58:27

set of questions right there. Yeah,

58:30

I mean, someone who doesn't have

58:32

a good life, but who has

58:34

the conditions around them that they

58:36

could, probably in that

58:38

situation, because the thing

58:40

they think they're buying with their

58:43

time and effort isn't the thing

58:45

the system is selling them. That

58:47

if we set ourselves up

58:49

to be in that

58:51

position where there's a mismatch

58:53

between what we expect from the

58:56

system and what the system

58:58

likes to offer, like, so

59:00

if you're looking for interpersonal

59:02

connection, gratification, and belonging by

59:04

chatting to people at

59:06

the airport rental car

59:08

counter, you're never going to find

59:10

it because that's not why they're there. Figuring

59:13

out what you're looking for and

59:15

making sure you're showing up in the

59:17

right place to get it is

59:19

critical. That's where we began this conversation

59:21

is, yes, we should improve our

59:23

narrative about what we're getting, our narrative

59:25

about the life we are living, but

59:28

B, we should make sure we're

59:30

in the right line because going to

59:32

an ATM to get a muffin

59:34

is a bad idea. Although that

59:36

might be a pretty awesome ATM.

59:38

I will talk to my wife

59:40

and see if she wants to

59:42

build one of those. Like a

59:44

gluten -free, dairy -free muffin. There's something

59:46

happening here right now. That does

59:48

touch really back into the beginning

59:50

of our conversation. It also

59:53

touches, in an interesting way, into

59:55

the end of your most recent

59:57

book, where you really talk about bringing approach

1:00:00

to the most urgent systems and

1:00:02

the most urgent need for change

1:00:04

in our lifetimes. And this notion

1:00:06

that once we begin to see

1:00:08

the systems that we live in,

1:00:11

once you know, like all of

1:00:13

a sudden, these things that had

1:00:15

been invisible to us, but have

1:00:17

really been so influential, everything that

1:00:19

we do, everything that we think,

1:00:21

everything that we say, they become

1:00:23

invisible to us. And something happens

1:00:25

through our own intention or through

1:00:27

action. And then what do we

1:00:29

do with that, you know, and

1:00:32

you suggest the path to create

1:00:34

change at that point, that's when

1:00:36

it becomes clear what the next

1:00:38

steps are, and that's going to

1:00:40

be unique and distinct based on

1:00:42

the person, the system that they're

1:00:44

trying to change, but we got

1:00:46

to see the system before we

1:00:48

can actually do anything to change

1:00:50

it. And cursing the system almost

1:00:53

never works, you know, so... I

1:00:55

was at a climate conference last

1:00:57

year and it turns out the

1:00:59

top five banks who support coal

1:01:01

plants and finance things like that,

1:01:03

fossil fuel extraction, where it adds

1:01:05

up to billions and billions and

1:01:07

billions and billions of dollars. And

1:01:09

the guy who's a VP at

1:01:12

the bank is standing there talking,

1:01:14

he's the head of sustainability, and

1:01:16

he's talking about how all their

1:01:18

branches have LED lights in them

1:01:20

now. And you just want to

1:01:22

stand up and yell about it,

1:01:24

right? That's not the bank's problem.

1:01:26

The LED lights in their branches.

1:01:28

The problem is they are funding

1:01:30

things that overwhelm so much of

1:01:33

the work that other people are

1:01:35

doing. But scolding them isn't going

1:01:37

to get them to stop doing

1:01:39

that. We have to see the

1:01:41

system and what is causing each

1:01:43

person in the system to make

1:01:45

what they think of as a

1:01:47

good decision and then find the

1:01:49

leverage points. So they make a

1:01:52

new decision based on new information.

1:01:54

Then... The system is really good

1:01:56

at maintaining itself. It will maintain

1:01:58

itself by investing in something else.

1:02:00

Yeah, it speaks to something you

1:02:02

wrote actually in the very beginning

1:02:04

of the book to find a

1:02:06

better strategy We need to be

1:02:08

prepared to walk away from the

1:02:10

one that we've defaulted into and

1:02:13

That is almost it's kind of

1:02:15

like that is the start of

1:02:17

where the magic happens. It's so

1:02:19

hard to do. I just got to

1:02:21

tell you I've been doing it with

1:02:23

intent for a long time and you

1:02:25

just want to As soon as the

1:02:27

new thing stops working as well as

1:02:30

you hope, you want to go back

1:02:32

to the old thing. And that's what

1:02:34

usually happens. The ability to talk about

1:02:36

it, to be able to say to

1:02:38

your peers and your partner, I see

1:02:40

this system, and this is going to

1:02:42

be a hard transition, but it's going

1:02:44

to be worth it, because the system

1:02:46

we're part of right now isn't getting

1:02:49

us to where we want to go.

1:02:51

And we need to have those conversations

1:02:53

now, because there's a lot of chains

1:02:55

that we all want. The story we

1:02:58

tell ourselves about this is important, but

1:03:00

also the foundation of it

1:03:02

is truly important. We don't have

1:03:04

that many perfect days, and I

1:03:06

don't think we spend enough time

1:03:08

appreciating how much freedom and agency

1:03:11

we have and being grateful for the

1:03:13

chance we have to show up the way

1:03:15

we do. So every day I get a day

1:03:17

like that, and this is one of those days,

1:03:19

I am really conscious of it. And a

1:03:22

little aside, which is completely true.

1:03:24

Publishing a book is a pain in

1:03:26

the ass. And I prefer to just write a

1:03:28

blog post. But one of the things that

1:03:30

comes to mind when I say, nah, I should

1:03:32

make this a book, is that I'm going to

1:03:35

get to talk to you, because you make

1:03:37

me better every time we interact. So

1:03:39

thank you, Jonathan. Thanks so much

1:03:41

for your kind words. And thank

1:03:43

you for the conversation, as always.

1:03:45

It's a pleasure. And remember, if

1:03:48

you're at a moment of exploration,

1:03:50

looking to find and do or

1:03:52

even create work that makes you

1:03:54

come morfully live. that brings more

1:03:56

meaning and purpose and joy into

1:03:58

your life. Take the time to discover

1:04:00

own personal for free for free at

1:04:02

sparketype .com. It will open open your

1:04:04

eyes to a deeper understanding

1:04:07

of yourself and open the door

1:04:09

to possibility like never before.

1:04:11

before. And if if you're finding

1:04:13

value in these conversations, please

1:04:15

just take an extra second

1:04:17

right now to follow and rate

1:04:19

and rate your favorite podcast app.

1:04:21

This is so helpful in helping

1:04:23

others find the show the show

1:04:25

growing our community so that we can

1:04:27

all come alive and work

1:04:30

and life together. together. This episode episode

1:04:32

of Spark was produced by executive

1:04:34

producers Lindsey Fox and me, and

1:04:36

Fields, production and editing by editing

1:04:38

by Special thanks to Shelley Dell

1:04:40

for her research on this

1:04:42

episode. on this Until next time, next

1:04:44

I'm Jonathan Fields and this is

1:04:46

is Spart.