0:00

LinkedIn Presents. So

0:02

if you ever felt like

0:04

the traditional job search process

0:06

just isn't working for you.

0:08

That sending out resume after

0:10

resume into a black hole,

0:12

praying for any response, is

0:15

a soul-crushing cycle of rejection

0:17

and disappointment. If so, you're

0:19

not alone. What if there

0:21

was a way to rethink

0:23

the job hunt? That's where

0:25

we're headed in today's sparked

0:27

hot take. So joining me

0:29

is Madeline Mann, a human

0:32

resources leader and career strategist,

0:34

who turns job seekers into

0:36

what she calls job shoppers. Through

0:38

her coaching and insights gained from

0:40

years as a corporate recruiter,

0:42

she has reached millions with a

0:45

radically fresh mindset, which she shares

0:47

in her new book, reverse the search how

0:49

to turn job seeking into job shopping.

0:51

Instead of chasing opportunities, Madeline's

0:54

job shopping approach It empowers

0:56

you to attract them by

0:58

deeply understanding what companies need

1:00

and strategically positioning yourself as

1:02

the solution. So imagine if you

1:04

could walk into interviews as more of

1:06

a consultant than a desperate applicant

1:09

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1:11

than neediness. So if you're just starting

1:13

out or a seasoned veteran drowning in

1:15

rejection, get ready to radically rethink your

1:18

job search strategy with fresh perspectives

1:20

that could finally land your dream

1:22

role. So excited to share this

1:24

conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields

1:26

and this is Spark. Hey, so

1:29

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1:31

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now. From

2:49

LinkedIn News, I'm Leah Smart, host

2:51

of Everyday Better, an award-winning podcast

2:53

dedicated to personal development. Join me

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research to find more fulfillment in

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at LinkedIn.com, backslash, Meet-the-SMB.

3:33

You had the big

3:35

question on my mind. I

3:37

think we're in such interesting times

3:39

right now. probably capital ION that

3:41

word interesting and there's so much

3:44

change, so much groundlessness and so

3:46

many people reexamining that thing they

3:48

call work, you know, like the

3:50

job. And you make a really

3:52

strong argument basically saying that job

3:55

search as we know it is

3:57

broken. Take me there. Really what we

3:59

found is that there's several things in

4:01

the job search that have made

4:04

it really awful for the job

4:06

seeker. First is that even though

4:08

you are a complex person with

4:10

a whole mosaic of different interests

4:12

and skills, really you need to

4:15

focus on just one area in

4:17

order to get noticed. And that

4:19

could be really challenging for people.

4:21

The second piece is that online

4:24

applications is actually the worst thing

4:26

to ever happen. to the job

4:28

seeker. We think that it's this

4:31

great accessibility, but really what's

4:33

happened is that these roles

4:35

are flooded with people who

4:37

don't even want the role, who

4:40

are unqualified, burying the people who

4:42

actually want those roles. And then

4:44

the third piece is that we

4:46

found that when it comes to

4:49

an interview process, the person who

4:51

lands the job isn't the most

4:53

qualified. It's the person who

4:55

sells themselves the best. What

4:58

I've found, the reason I've

5:00

dedicated my entire career to

5:02

this, is because job interviewing

5:04

and job searching is a

5:06

separate skill set. So let's break

5:08

this down a little bit then.

5:10

The three factors that you just

5:13

noted above. Is this a new

5:15

thing or had these always been a

5:17

part of the struggle? of finding

5:19

a job that feels really well-lined

5:21

for you, and then actually landing

5:24

that job. Or is it like

5:26

a yes-and thing? Like these have

5:28

always been around, but circumstances or

5:30

tech has changed, that's exacerbating

5:32

the problem. I would say

5:34

that these things have always

5:36

existed, but it's the intensity.

5:38

And the ferocious nature that people

5:41

have to be competitive has dramatically

5:43

expanded. The fact that so many

5:45

people know about every job opening,

5:47

and the fact that now we

5:49

have remote roles, people think that

5:51

remote rules are amazing for the

5:54

candidate, but they're actually phenomenal for

5:56

the company, because now they can

5:58

choose anyone in the. or sometimes

6:00

even anyone in the world, making the

6:02

competition for these roles so fierce that

6:04

if you're kind of sloppily putting together

6:06

your resume or you don't completely understand

6:08

the goals of the company and the

6:10

needs of this role, it used to

6:12

be that you could get away with

6:14

that. If you had some core skills

6:17

and you did well enough in your

6:19

interview, you could still land the offer.

6:21

The stakes have raised and now becoming

6:23

a job shopper is not just a

6:25

luxury, it's a necessity. How has AI

6:27

played into this? Because as you're describing this,

6:29

I'm kind of nodding alone, like this all

6:31

makes sense. And then you see reports

6:33

or just people talking about their personal

6:36

experience where on the one side, you know,

6:38

you're looking at organizations and they're also just

6:40

desperately trying to figure out how do we

6:42

make this work better on our side too?

6:44

I'm not somebody who looks at the corporations

6:46

as evil overlords, or as you know, like

6:49

these people who are trying to do harm.

6:51

I think everyone's actually trying to do best

6:53

for whatever is in their interest, but I

6:55

look at AI on the side of the

6:57

organizations and I would imagine they're looking at

6:59

all sorts of ways to use it to

7:02

help make the quote vetting process more efficient

7:04

and effective. And then I also hear about

7:06

folks on the job searching side who are

7:08

tapping platforms to try and help them

7:10

like show up in the best

7:13

possible way, but also potentially almost

7:15

like flood the application sphere at

7:17

scale using AI. Like what are

7:19

you actually seeing here? Okay, yes,

7:22

let's look at both of those

7:24

worlds. So if we just start

7:26

with the Job Secret World, I've

7:28

recently opened up roles and helped

7:30

hire for roles and the cover

7:32

letters that I'm seeing. have transformed.

7:34

They all are very, cover letters

7:37

before were very similar, now they

7:39

look all near identical and all

7:41

kind of use the same formulas

7:44

that you could just kind of

7:46

scroll through all the people answering

7:48

and responding to application questions and

7:50

it's now a matter of, oh,

7:53

this person sounds like a human, this

7:55

person doesn't sound like a human,

7:57

as well as the number of

7:59

apps. has exploded because there are

8:01

so many tools that speed up the

8:03

pace at which people can apply. They

8:06

can produce these resumes that are customized

8:08

using AI. They use these tools that

8:10

will auto apply for them to hundreds

8:13

of jobs. And so it is making

8:15

it actually so much worse for a

8:17

lot of the qualified candidates because they're

8:20

getting buried. On the other side, there's

8:22

the employers using AI. Now, I think

8:24

job seekers tend to overestimate. how much

8:27

AI is impacting their candidacy, there is

8:29

sorting software. And emphasis on sorting, it's

8:31

not necessarily rejection software, it's not, you

8:33

know, it's not necessarily that this, that

8:36

the software is mostly making decisions, it's

8:38

mostly trying to help. And this can

8:40

get it wrong, the software can get

8:43

it wrong, but at the same time,

8:45

if you were someone who follows. the

8:47

strategies that I teach or other career

8:50

coaches teach, you will find that some

8:52

of these tools are actually finally helping

8:54

you to get seen. Because if 80%

8:57

of applications are from people who never

8:59

read the job description and aren't qualified,

9:01

which that's a very normal number, then

9:03

you want to make sure that whatever

9:06

tool the company is using is unerthing

9:08

that 20% that you are in. And

9:10

so that's the balance we have to.

9:13

we have to look at because I

9:15

don't think that these tools are meant

9:17

to filter out people who are very

9:20

deserving. It's meant to get rid of

9:22

all of the noise that's happening. Yeah,

9:24

and that's why I was saying like

9:27

I like to assume benevolent intent on

9:29

both sides. You know, everyone's just trying

9:31

to do the best they can and

9:33

in the most efficient and effective way

9:36

that they can and get the outcomes

9:38

that they want. You know, and I

9:40

think at the end of the day,

9:43

everyone wants an outcome where it says

9:45

like... We've got a great role in

9:47

a great position and a great person

9:50

who's in that. And it's just, it's

9:52

a great fit for the role, for

9:54

the company, for the culture and all

9:56

those things. So, you know. I'm a

9:59

big fan of anything that actually helps

10:01

make that easier for everybody. You used

10:03

the phrase earlier in our conversation, and

10:06

this is sort of like a, this

10:08

is a core part of your philosophy

10:10

and a core idea in your book,

10:13

job shopper. Deconstruct this for me. What

10:15

are we talking about when we're talking

10:17

about being a job shopper? The mentality

10:20

that too many of us have fallen

10:22

into in the job search is that

10:24

we are... you know, waiting patiently for

10:26

a company to reach out to us,

10:29

that when we're in the interview, we're

10:31

sitting and we're just, our strategy is

10:33

to answer the questions to the best

10:36

of our ability. When I say, absolutely

10:38

not, we cannot just wait passively, we

10:40

should be job shoppers, because in the

10:43

end, I have led human resources teams,

10:45

I have hired thousands of people, I've

10:47

seen the inside. Companies go above and

10:50

beyond to find the right talent. They

10:52

will pay big money and take longer

10:54

to hire those roles if they are

10:56

really looking for the right person. And

10:59

you can use that to your advantage.

11:01

Anyone who is hired knows that they

11:03

will take an extra few weeks and

11:06

spend more money on a salary. rather

11:08

than hire someone too quickly and have

11:10

it be the wrong hire and then

11:13

have to train them and terminate them

11:15

and all of that nonsense. Anyone on

11:17

the inside knows that. And so if

11:20

you can position yourself as in a

11:22

league of your own, as someone who's

11:24

an irresistible candidate and that doesn't have

11:26

to do with you having that Ivy

11:29

League pedigree or that additional certification or

11:31

you know your aunt being the VP

11:33

at the company, it's not about that.

11:36

It's about understanding. what the company needs,

11:38

their challenges and their problems, and you

11:40

being the solution to that, and getting

11:43

rid of this focus on your own

11:45

story and your own, you know, your

11:47

own tale that you want to spin

11:50

about yourself. Yeah, that makes so much

11:52

sense to me. I've owned my own

11:54

businesses for so many years right now,

11:56

but earlier in my career, I worked

11:59

for a massive federal bureaucracy. I worked

12:01

for a giant company, a giant law

12:03

firm in New York, and I went

12:06

through a detailed interviewing processes, and I've

12:08

been through a number of different times.

12:10

And one of the switches that was

12:13

flipped, and I think this is what

12:15

you're describing, was, you know, there was

12:17

a moment where I remember, like, oh,

12:20

just pick me, pick me, pick me,

12:22

I want you to want you to

12:24

want you to want me. I actually

12:26

don't want to do the job that

12:29

I want people to pick me for.

12:31

I don't want to be in this

12:33

company. The more I'm interviewing and learning

12:36

about the culture and the people, I'm

12:38

like, good people, I'm sure, but they're

12:40

not my people. And this is not

12:43

what I actually want to be doing.

12:45

And I think this is when I

12:47

switched into what you would call the

12:50

job shop remote, where I was like,

12:52

you know what, I'm interviewing them as

12:54

much as they're interviewing me. And what

12:56

was interesting was it changed everything. Like

12:59

the interviews then became these conversations where

13:01

all of a sudden also like the

13:03

offers became much more consistent. There was

13:06

something about the way that I showed

13:08

up that shifted. Is that part of

13:10

what you're talking about? That's exactly it.

13:13

Because in the second version, you showed

13:15

up more like a co-worker. More like

13:17

a consultant that has already been hired.

13:20

And you're saying, okay, how do I,

13:22

how do we figured this out? What

13:24

are the components of this role? What

13:26

are the challenges we would have to

13:29

solve? And when people see you showing

13:31

up that way, they first get a

13:33

much more realistic view of who you

13:36

are. It's this toxic positivity that we've

13:38

taught job seekers where they go into

13:40

interviews and they say, I'm good at

13:43

everything, I like everything, I want to

13:45

do this job. Whereas a job seeker

13:47

who says, these are my skills, here's

13:50

what I'm working on. 40% of my

13:52

time in this role is focused on

13:54

these skills and these tasks. It's probably

13:56

not going to be very motivating for

13:59

me, even though I'm good at them.

14:01

I really want to focus mostly on

14:03

this. And usually when you say those

14:06

things, yes, you could get disqualified, but

14:08

a lot of times, because you've been

14:10

asking these inquisitive questions, because you've been

14:13

having a dialogue, you actually know what

14:15

they're looking for. So even if you're

14:17

soft disqualifying yourself for certain aspects of

14:20

a role, it's not for this role.

14:22

So you really having that dialogue with

14:24

the company and knowing your values, knowing

14:26

what you want, it can completely change.

14:29

the vibe of the interview and it

14:31

leads to many more offers. Yeah, that

14:33

lands so true to me. As you're

14:36

describing that, I literally remember like being

14:38

in this process years ago and having

14:40

conversation, I was talking to a chief

14:43

marketing officer of a company and the

14:45

company sounded really cool to me and

14:47

I loved the work that they did,

14:50

but the role that we were talking

14:52

about, we just had a very open

14:54

honest conversation at the end of the

14:56

conversation. CEO says something like, hey listen,

14:59

I think we both understand you're not

15:01

right for this role, but there's something

15:03

here and like let's keep talking because

15:06

like I feel like we're really good

15:08

fit. I like you and I like

15:10

what you have to offer. I wonder

15:13

if there's something else and that never

15:15

would have happened had I just been

15:17

trying to sort of like perform for

15:20

the role on paper. Yeah. Is that

15:22

something that you see? That is a

15:24

very common happenstance with my clients. People

15:26

don't believe me when I say this

15:29

because it's so unfamiliar to them. But

15:31

when you show up with a mission,

15:33

with a purpose, and with a strategy,

15:36

the company gets to know you and

15:38

so many of my clients will get

15:40

rejected for one role at the company

15:43

and then a role will be created

15:45

for them or they'll be placed into

15:47

another role. Why doesn't that happen to

15:50

other people? Well, it's because they don't

15:52

trust you. job seekers optimize for time

15:54

because we can only spend so many

15:56

hours in a day, you know, spending

15:59

all of our time on these these

16:01

job opportunities. companies optimize for risk. So

16:03

they are making sure that they are

16:06

not making the wrong higher. And one

16:08

of the things there is that we

16:10

need to de-risk ourselves when we are

16:13

in the interview by giving them an

16:15

impression of what it would be like

16:17

to work with them. Like, you know,

16:20

we have apps where we can do

16:22

a free child. We can taste a

16:24

bottle of wine before we buy it.

16:26

But how does the company know? what

16:29

it's like to work with you before

16:31

you start. And a lot of companies

16:33

are interview process, does a poor job

16:36

of demonstrating that, and so you need

16:38

to go into the job interview with

16:40

a plan so that you shine in

16:43

the interview, even if your interviewers are

16:45

not very good at what they do,

16:47

which most interviewers are, even if they

16:50

are practiced, they're not very effective. So

16:52

one of the things that you talk

16:54

about also, and I think it really

16:56

ties into this part of the conversation,

16:59

is this notion of for you to

17:01

show up that way, you also have

17:03

to know who you are. You know,

17:06

and you have to know what you

17:08

care about and what you don't care

17:10

about, what matters and what doesn't matter,

17:13

and what you're genuinely looking for, and

17:15

what isn't meaningful to you. Take me

17:17

into sort of how you would approach

17:20

developing this level of self-knowledge. You are

17:22

absolutely right. We cannot do any of

17:24

the work of landing an incredible job

17:26

if you don't have the foundation of

17:29

knowing exactly what your next crew move

17:31

is. And I will tell you right

17:33

now, most professionals don't have that answer.

17:36

From my coaching thousands of people, that

17:38

is the hardest question to answer. So

17:40

if your listeners are struggling with that,

17:43

you are in very good company. And

17:45

so what you need to do is

17:47

you need to throw out these ideas

17:50

of follow your passion or do something

17:52

you love and you'll never work a

17:54

day in your life. Those are those

17:56

are mentalities that have worked for some

17:59

people, but are often leading to a

18:01

misguided path. So what's better, and I

18:03

talk about this in depth in reverse

18:06

the search, is following the wealth formula.

18:08

So there's three components here. The first

18:10

is your values. So this is what's

18:13

going to prevent you from hating your

18:15

life. So that's really, what do you

18:17

value right now? And that's probably going

18:20

to change throughout your career. Earlier in

18:22

my career, it was, I want growth

18:24

opportunities. I want to get promoted fast,

18:26

and I want to build really great

18:29

relationships. I want balance. I want low

18:31

stress. So those are your values, right?

18:33

So get clear about what you actually

18:36

want, because a lot of us have

18:38

roles that are actually misaligned with those

18:40

things. The second piece is that people

18:43

want to have a job that they

18:45

enjoy, and they often look to their

18:47

hobbies for that, but the fastest way

18:50

to hate a hobby is to make

18:52

it your job. So what instead is

18:54

fun is building mastery. How do you

18:56

build mastery? You choose jobs that play

18:59

to your strengths frequently. So your strengths

19:01

are the things that you're good at,

19:03

but it's also things that you enjoy

19:06

doing that other people dread. That is

19:08

where the money is. And so finding

19:10

those things and building that mastery is

19:13

where you're going to have a lot

19:15

of fun. So figure out what are

19:17

those strengths that are bankable. And then

19:20

the third piece is market demand. So

19:22

you are having a job to get

19:24

paid. upset about the career path you're

19:26

in that doesn't pay enough, I wish

19:29

you'd gone back in time and looked

19:31

at the career trajectory. So there are

19:33

two things I want you to do

19:36

is look at the salary over time.

19:38

It's okay if the salary starts off

19:40

low, that's fine, that's normal, but over

19:43

time does that fit what you want?

19:45

And second of all... Are the roles

19:47

increasing over time? So are more companies

19:50

hiring this year over year, or is

19:52

it diminishing? And if you have those

19:54

three components and then find your opportunities

19:56

that fit those three things, talk. to

19:59

people in those rules, be very discerning

20:01

about do they actually fit what you

20:03

want, you can really land on something

20:06

amazing. I mean, I think that's a

20:08

great framework. Of course, you probably imagine

20:10

I would throw and discover what your

20:13

sparkotype is in there, which is, which

20:15

also sort of like a variation on

20:17

strengths to a certain extent, depending on

20:20

which strengths assessment you're looking at. Some

20:22

are more talent-based, some are more character-based.

20:24

You know, our research shows us that

20:26

these are innate impulses that give us

20:29

certain feelings. but also allow us to

20:31

show up. But I love that extra

20:33

tweak that you have there that says,

20:36

you know, like, if it's something that

20:38

a lot of other people don't want

20:40

to do, but there's value in the

20:43

marketplace for it, that is a really

20:45

interesting way to focus in. We found

20:47

this with one of the particular sparkotypes,

20:50

the essentialists, which is about creating order

20:52

from Chaos Systems Process Scale. A lot

20:54

of people really don't like this. They

20:56

value it. It's incredibly important to do

20:59

with it. And we found essentialists, once

21:01

they realize that this is actually something

21:03

that's unique about them and it's really

21:06

a high demand, and a lot of

21:08

people don't want it, there's incredible demand

21:10

when they actually realize, oh, if I

21:13

lead with this, it positions me in

21:15

a very different way. The last part

21:17

that you mentioned, I think, is really

21:20

interesting too, which is looking at sort

21:22

of like the longitudinal view of what

21:24

salary is. Like if you start out

21:26

at this entry-level job, Where is the

21:29

typical person five years and ten years

21:31

and fifteen and twenty years maybe right?

21:33

That's really interesting to me. Here's my

21:36

question about that. When you look at

21:38

that, you know, you could look at

21:40

this and say, okay, let's take for

21:43

example in the agency world, the creative

21:45

like agency world, entry level jobs are

21:47

often notoriously low paid. But then if

21:50

you look at the level of director,

21:52

like creative director and stuff like that,

21:54

they're often extraordinarily well paid. There are

21:56

very few people who actually ever get

21:59

to that job. There are very few

22:01

of those jobs and there are very

22:03

few people who sort of like make

22:06

it through to those jobs. So what's

22:08

your take on looking at not just

22:10

what the the full sweep of sort

22:13

of like entry level to high level

22:15

but also looking at but what percentage

22:17

of people overall end up actually being

22:20

able to be employed at that level

22:22

to sort of like progress all the

22:24

way there without having to in some

22:26

way make a meaningful change? That's exactly

22:29

it is like before I went into

22:31

the human resources field I was in

22:33

journalism and if you look It's just

22:36

low, low, low, low, low, low, low

22:38

pay and then maybe when you make

22:40

it big, you can, you basically get

22:43

all the pay that no one else

22:45

gets. And so you need to make

22:47

a decision there. For me, I was

22:50

not willing to, to, you know, grind

22:52

away to hope that I'm going to

22:54

get that lottery ticket. But for some

22:56

people, they're willing to do it. Or

22:59

they have a financial situation or they

23:01

have a financial situation or they have

23:03

a partner or something like that. They

23:06

can float until that happens. But I

23:08

want us to go into that career

23:10

path, eyes wide open. You cannot be

23:13

complaining that your mid-career, you know, your

23:15

manager level, and the creative field, and

23:17

that your pay is low, we knew

23:20

this. We knew this going into this,

23:22

right? And you have to also look

23:24

at how many years is it going

23:26

to take me to that director level?

23:29

Is it going to take me 10,

23:31

20, 30, again? We need to understand,

23:33

maybe you can speed it up, sure,

23:36

and that there's strategies to do that,

23:38

but make the decision very consciously. And

23:40

one thing I talk about in the

23:43

book is that when I put out

23:45

a poll to hundreds of thousands of

23:47

people, 54% of people said that when

23:50

they chose their career path, it was

23:52

because they stumbled into it. And that

23:54

is the issue that we're dealing with

23:56

here, is I don't care if you

23:59

make that decision consciously. but 54% of

24:01

people are not. Yeah, so it's really

24:03

about the fundamental message is eyes wide

24:06

open. You know, like, if you want

24:08

to just go for it and take

24:10

the risk and see, like, and. that

24:13

you will be the long shot, awesome,

24:15

but do it with your eyes wide

24:17

open about the reality of like who

24:20

actually and how many people actually make

24:22

it to that point. Absolutely. Small and

24:24

medium businesses don't have time to waste

24:26

and neither to marketers trying to reach

24:29

them. On LinkedIn, more SMB decision-makers are

24:31

actively looking for new solutions to help

24:33

them grow, whether it's software or financial

24:36

services. Our Meet the SMB report breaks

24:38

down how these businesses buy and what

24:40

really influences their choices. Learn more at

24:43

LinkedIn.com, Meet-the-SMB. One

24:45

of the things I want to

24:47

ask you about also, and this

24:49

is one of the chapters that

24:51

you write about, and you reference

24:53

it earlier in a conversation, is

24:55

this notion of building your own

24:58

brand. I think a lot of

25:00

people have heard over the years.

25:02

You've got to build your own

25:04

brand. But in this context, I

25:06

feel like it lands a bit

25:08

differently. So in the job search,

25:10

when you're out there looking for

25:12

a new job, why is it

25:14

so important for you to actually

25:16

have your own brand? Absolutely. So

25:18

I saw a post on LinkedIn

25:20

the other day from someone who,

25:22

a CEO of a startup, and

25:24

he said, oh man, this past

25:26

year I spent, you know, $140,000

25:28

on LinkedIn recruiter seats. So this

25:30

is basically, these seats, these accounts

25:33

that his recruiters and his hiring

25:35

managers are using to find candidates

25:37

on LinkedIn to then interview them

25:39

and then pay those candidates to

25:41

work for them. Companies are spending

25:43

just insane amounts of money on

25:45

external recruiters and these tools. And

25:47

the issue is is that the

25:49

so many people are the best

25:51

kept secrets in their industry. The

25:53

best people are not necessarily any

25:55

interviews. The people who are the

25:57

most findable are. And the way

25:59

we've been. to market or brand

26:01

ourselves in the job search has

26:03

been to use all of this

26:05

fluffy language. Things like I'm a

26:07

seasoned innovative executive, you know, who

26:10

transforms businesses. That is not how

26:12

you get found. You need to

26:14

understand that there are specific... Keywords

26:16

there's specific skills that they're looking

26:18

for there are specific industry related

26:20

terms And so you need to

26:22

start thinking about your presence as

26:24

searchable as you should show in

26:26

it's almost like an element of

26:28

SEO And I found that when

26:30

I teach my clients this they'll

26:32

say that over 50% of their

26:34

interviews are from companies that they

26:36

never applied to just inbound them

26:38

saying hey, I found you will

26:40

you please interview with us and

26:42

they say It's the easiest job

26:45

search they've ever done. I mean,

26:47

that's so interesting. So let's take

26:49

an example then. With an example

26:51

of doing this effectively be something

26:53

like saying, hey listen, product management

26:55

seems like a really interesting space

26:57

for me. I'd love to get

26:59

into it. And maybe you're sort

27:01

of like entry level in that

27:03

space or maybe you're not, but

27:05

you're like, this sounds really interesting

27:07

to me. Either way, would you

27:09

then, would this then involve saying,

27:11

okay, let me learn everything I

27:13

can, and let me start sharing

27:15

these thoughts in a regular, consistent,

27:17

public way so that I can

27:19

demonstrate that I'm interested, that I'm

27:22

knowledgeable about it, that I have

27:24

my own opinions and point of

27:26

view and strategy and thoughts about

27:28

it, so that people who are

27:30

then searching on the phrase product

27:32

manager might find me and not

27:34

even have to look in my

27:36

resume, but then just kind of

27:38

be like, oh, this person actually.

27:40

Is thinking a really interesting way

27:42

about this? I'd love to know

27:44

more. Is that an example of

27:46

what you're talking about here? That

27:48

is an example. And in the

27:50

book, that is actually considered a

27:52

bonus tip. So you don't even

27:54

have to create content online. or

27:57

on LinkedIn in order to be

27:59

highly visible in your industry, I

28:01

do think it is a very

28:03

good strategy to implement, but I

28:05

have worked with so many people

28:07

that have found that for some

28:09

people, creating content is, and you

28:11

know, with spark type, like, you

28:13

know, this, like, creating content for

28:15

some people is the most painful

28:17

process they could ever imagine. I

28:19

think for most people, for me,

28:21

for instance. It comes very naturally

28:23

to me. I love to share.

28:25

And so I've recognized that and

28:27

I said, let's not try to

28:29

strengthen your weaknesses, let's optimize your

28:31

strengths in the job search. And

28:34

so if you are someone who

28:36

is naturally good at creating content,

28:38

I would say that strategy just

28:40

named is incredible. If that's not

28:42

you, then that's okay, you can

28:44

pass on that strategy. you know,

28:46

what you write about a lot

28:48

of your body of work here.

28:50

What I love about it is

28:52

it's not sort of like a

28:54

one-size-fits-all formula. You basically saying, here

28:56

are a whole bunch of ideas,

28:58

here are a whole bunch of

29:00

strategies, right? And here's a menu

29:02

to choose from. You're a different

29:04

person, you're going to be really

29:06

effective for you and some not,

29:09

and some of them you're just

29:11

going to love doing, and some

29:13

of them you're going to be

29:15

repelled. Way or else you can

29:17

pick all the items on the

29:19

menu that in theory work But

29:21

if it makes you like show

29:23

up in a conversation like with

29:25

it written all over you It's

29:27

just not going to go well

29:29

Right and it yeah exactly it

29:31

depends on your personality it depends

29:33

on your career, what level you're

29:35

in, the type of role you're

29:37

going for, all those types of

29:39

things. And so exactly, that's why

29:41

I try to teach the why

29:44

behind everything so people can realize,

29:46

all right, I'm going to imply

29:48

this. and try this, because the

29:50

worst thing that people do in

29:52

the job search is they keep

29:54

doing the same thing over and

29:56

over again. That's not working. The

29:58

job search is not a numbers

30:00

game. If you're dozens of applications

30:02

deep and you're not letting interviews,

30:04

something is seriously wrong. If your

30:06

job search feels like a full-time

30:08

job, something is seriously wrong. You've

30:10

got to reverse the search. Yeah,

30:12

and I love that piece of

30:14

advice because so often. who will

30:16

just get into that position and

30:18

you get a whole bunch of

30:21

just everything is going no no

30:23

no no no no no and

30:25

you're like this is just brutal

30:27

you know the market is awful

30:29

and yes there may be challenging

30:31

times it may be a tough

30:33

thing that you're trying to get

30:35

into but it's hard to take

30:37

responsibility for the outcomes of this

30:39

process but at the same time

30:41

like along with responsibility comes agency

30:43

and it gives us this feeling

30:45

like oh like we can actually

30:47

do something to change the outcomes.

30:49

That is a huge message that

30:51

I hope people hear. People think

30:53

that they are helpless in the

30:56

job search is you submit your

30:58

application and then just let Jesus

31:00

take the wheel and that's not

31:02

the case. There are so many

31:04

different touch points that you can

31:06

do to speed up the process

31:08

or... Even give a better impression

31:10

between interviews if you felt like

31:12

your interview didn't go so well

31:14

Or have a company create a

31:16

role for you where there wasn't

31:18

one people think that this this

31:20

sounds way out of the box

31:22

But it happens every day and

31:24

it's just a matter of understanding

31:26

the rules and how you can

31:28

bend them Hmm. Yeah, I love

31:30

that feels like good place for

31:33

us to wrap up so I'll

31:35

ask you there's one question somebody's

31:37

listening to this they're not in

31:39

line there like this makes so

31:41

much sense to me I really

31:43

want to dive to dive in

31:45

What's sort of like a good

31:47

fairly universal opening move in the

31:49

shift from being a job searcher

31:51

to being a job shopper? I

31:53

would say that a really good

31:55

shift is to, I want you

31:57

to go into your next job

31:59

interview with a plan, and maybe

32:01

a very simple, when I a

32:03

plan, let's make it even simpler.

32:05

Let's find the number one accomplishment

32:08

that is two things. One, it's

32:10

highly relevant to what you're going

32:12

for, and two, it's impressive. Your

32:14

goal is any means necessary to

32:16

share that accomplishment in that interview.

32:18

And you'll be surprised if that's

32:20

your mission, you'll be surprised at

32:22

how you integrate it into why do

32:24

you want this job or You know,

32:26

tell me about a time you had

32:28

to overcome adversity, whatever it is, you

32:31

work that in. And that is the

32:33

first step to start saying, I'm taking

32:35

control of this narrative, I'm going to

32:37

make sure that they know the things

32:39

they need to walk away from this

32:41

interview to say, that was the best

32:43

interview all week. Love that. Thank

32:46

you so much for having me.

32:48

And remember, if you're at a

32:50

moment of exploration. Looking to find and

32:52

do or even create work that makes

32:54

you come more fully live, that brings

32:56

more meaning and purpose and joy

32:58

into your life. Take the time

33:00

to discover your own personal sparkotype

33:03

for free at sparkotype.com. It

33:05

will open your eyes to a deeper

33:07

understanding of yourself and open the

33:09

door to possibility like never before.

33:12

And hey, if you're finding value

33:14

in these conversations, please just

33:16

take an extra second right now.

33:18

to follow and rate Spark in

33:20

your favorite podcast app. This is

33:22

so helpful in helping others find

33:24

the show and growing our community

33:26

so that we can all come alive

33:28

and work and life together. This episode

33:31

of Spark was produced by executive

33:33

producers Lindsay Fox and Me,

33:35

Jonathan Fields, production and editing

33:37

by Sarah Harney. Special thanks

33:39

to Shelley Dell for her

33:41

research on this episode. Until

33:43

next time, I'm Jonathan Fields

33:45

and this is Spark.