0:29

Welcome to Spirits podcast, Boozy

0:31

Diamond, Mythology, Legends, and Folklore. Every

0:33

week we pour a drink and

0:35

learn about a new story from

0:38

around the world. I'm Amanda. And

0:40

I'm Julia. And Amanda, when first

0:42

I appear, I seem mysterious, but

0:44

when explained, I'm nothing serious. What

0:46

am I? Well shit. You're a

0:49

surprise during my routine. Appear nothing

0:51

serious and then what? When first

0:53

I appear, I seem mysterious, but

0:55

when explained, I'm nothing serious.

0:57

What am I? Fogg. Interesting? No.

1:00

Is it a riddle? Is it a riddle?

1:02

It is a riddle! Hey! I should

1:04

have known that one right away. You

1:07

know what I've heard that said so

1:09

many times in my listings to Into

1:11

the Woods and my viewings of Into

1:14

the Woods and only realized

1:16

like a couple years ago that

1:18

it first was a riddle and

1:20

that the answer was a riddle.

1:22

Our man Sondheim loved a self-referential

1:24

text. and it makes utter sense

1:26

that he would write in a

1:29

riddle about riddles. Yeah, especially a

1:31

riddle about riddles in a musical

1:33

about fairy tales. It makes a

1:35

lot of sense. And in this

1:37

episode of Anna, I'm going to

1:39

explain to you why that makes

1:41

a lot of sense. Hey, that's

1:43

exciting. Yes, because we are going

1:46

to be talking about riddling creatures,

1:48

riddling spirits, and also the

1:50

heart of the riddle tail,

1:52

which is a very common

1:54

trope this episode. Now Julia, what

1:56

kind of, I don't want to

1:58

say baggage necessarily, what kind of

2:00

relation to riddles are you bringing

2:03

to the table? Because I feel

2:05

like it's quite a divisive subject

2:07

where particularly like puns, you know,

2:09

or something along those lines, or

2:11

like an optical illusion. I almost

2:14

said a visual riddle. I mean,

2:16

basically, an optical illusion. People have

2:18

very strong feelings about them. I

2:20

like riddles. I in particular like

2:22

telling riddles to people because one

2:24

of my favorite things is asking

2:27

someone a question and then they

2:29

are like, huh, well, uh, and

2:31

then I say it and they're

2:34

like, of course, that's. very enjoyable

2:36

to me as a person. It's

2:38

why I like those things. Keep

2:41

that up. Yum, yum, yum, yum,

2:43

yum, yum, yum, I love eating

2:45

it, yum, yum, yum, yum, so

2:48

I actually really enjoy riddles and

2:50

as a podcaster I don't listen

2:53

to a ton of podcast because

2:55

it is my full-time job. It

2:57

consumes a lot of my listening

3:00

hours, like fairy tales and modern

3:02

fantasy. like the hobbit really highlight

3:04

how intrinsically linked in our minds,

3:07

riddles, and mythology are. So like

3:09

I'm sure off the top of

3:11

your head you could probably think

3:13

of one or two riddling creatures

3:15

when I mention riddles and folklore,

3:18

right? Yeah, there's definitely just like

3:20

a vague like fay or like

3:22

bridge troll, you know, somebody that

3:24

like needs to grant passage if

3:27

you answer them. the correct riddle,

3:29

there is the sphinx, who I

3:31

guess is a riddler. It's very

3:34

funny to call them riddlers. And

3:36

I would also say that in

3:38

all kinds of quests, there's like,

3:41

oh, you know, you think you're

3:43

so smart, a little, little quester,

3:46

will answer me, this, this questing

3:48

question. And then, you know, if

3:50

you, if you prove yourself worthy

3:53

enough, not just in physical form,

3:55

but intellectually, you mentioned all of

3:58

those examples because those are great.

4:00

examples. But you also mentioned the

4:02

one that always comes first to my

4:04

mind, which is the Sphinx, and it

4:06

shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I am

4:09

a Greek mythology girly at heart. So

4:11

of course I want to start by

4:13

talking about the Sphinx to get us

4:15

started for these riddling spirits. But before

4:18

we dig into the Sphinx as a

4:20

riddling spirit, I have to address something

4:22

of the elephant in the room and

4:24

that is there are two types of

4:27

Sphinxes. Excellent, because I was going to

4:29

ask, are the titties out while the

4:31

riddles are out? And I have to

4:34

know. So the answer to that question,

4:36

Amanda, is when the titties are out,

4:38

the riddles are out, and that is

4:41

because when I say the sphinx, I'm

4:43

curious what you think of first. First

4:45

instinct is the statue in Egypt of

4:48

lion body ladyhead, no titties. But I

4:50

also know there is a titty full

4:52

version of the sphinx, which is more

4:55

like anthropomorphicomorphicomorphicomorphical. A lot of people, their

4:57

first thought, is the great Sphinx in

4:59

Egypt. And the Egyptian Sphinx

5:01

actually came first and is

5:04

considered rather than a malicious

5:06

riddling spirit, a protector spirit.

5:08

And this Sphinx acts in

5:10

contrast to the later Greek

5:13

Sphinx, which is of course

5:15

a riddling villainous creature that

5:17

features heavily in the story

5:19

of Oedipus. It's also somewhat

5:22

interesting because the Sphinxes are...

5:24

two different genders in these

5:26

different stories. Most scholars agree

5:28

that the Egyptian Sphinx, which

5:30

is featured in the Great Sphinx

5:33

statue in Egypt, is actually male?

5:35

Really! While the Greek Sphinx is

5:37

a woman. Tits out and all,

5:40

as you mentioned. Listen guys can

5:42

have their tits out. That's also

5:44

fine. But I I so strongly

5:47

associate the sort of like feminine

5:49

mystique and like unknowability and like

5:51

kind of harpy vibes with a

5:53

feminine code. Thanks. Yeah, and that's

5:56

really interesting. I think it is

5:58

a kind of synchronization. aspect in

6:00

learning about both of these things. But what's

6:03

really interesting, before we get into our villainous

6:05

riddling spirit, I want to talk about the

6:07

Egyptian Sphinx first because we're just coming off

6:09

of denial isn't just a river in Egypt,

6:12

and I'm still getting those little Egyptian cravings

6:14

every now and again, so just a little

6:16

like tributary, a little aside in the the

6:18

the Nile River, we're taking a pause here

6:21

to talk a little bit about the Sphinx.

6:23

Love it. So in general the sphinx is

6:25

a creature with the body of a lion

6:28

or a lioness and the head of a

6:30

different creature. Now you notice I didn't

6:32

say human necessarily and that is the

6:34

most common combination that we see in

6:36

a sphinx and in particularly in Egypt

6:38

it is the face of a human

6:41

head which is supposed to be the

6:43

face of the reigning king or queen

6:45

at the time. Oh, interesting. However,

6:47

there is evidence of other types of

6:49

sphinxes in Egypt that are different animal

6:52

amalgamations that probably won't do it for

6:54

you Amanda personally, such as lion bodies

6:56

with the heads of rams or hawks

6:58

or even the set dog creature that

7:00

we talked about. I gotta say, the

7:02

most disturbing one to me is the

7:05

hawk. I'm just picturing a lethal head

7:07

on a lion or lioness body, and

7:09

those proportions don't do it for me.

7:11

Yeah, a griffin, at least you have

7:13

kind of the wings and the

7:15

front half is eagle or hawk.

7:17

However, when it's just lion body

7:19

and eagle head, it's the little

7:21

head. I like that you're not

7:23

scaling up the head, you're doing

7:25

full lion body and a tiny,

7:27

tiny hawk head. I'm picturing it

7:29

with those little hats on them

7:31

as well, the like hoods that

7:33

they use before falconage. Yeah,

7:36

okay, okay. So when we're thinking

7:38

about our classic Sphinx, though, with

7:40

the head of a royal, whether

7:42

that is the king or queen

7:44

or pharaoh at the time, Sphinxes

7:46

were supposed to represent the power

7:48

and duty of the ruler to

7:50

protect and defend Egypt. Hey Julia,

7:52

I'm going to say this once

7:54

today. What happened to that? Yeah, would

7:56

have been nice. Missed that. So they

7:58

were protector creatures. with sculptures of

8:01

them basically almost always posted outside

8:03

of temples or tombs because they

8:05

were supposed to defend those sacred

8:08

places. Now the greatest example of

8:10

this that still survives to this

8:12

day is of course the great

8:15

Sphinx of Giza. This huge statue

8:17

was carved out of an extremely

8:19

faulty piece of an outcropping of

8:22

rock during the 26th century BCE.

8:24

That's insane. And it was meant

8:27

to act as the guardian over

8:29

the royal cemeteries of the city

8:31

of Memphis. I love it. They were

8:33

like, guys, I know this rock isn't

8:36

the best, but like, it's, it's right

8:38

there. It's right there. It's so much

8:40

longer to haul all this shit. Exactly.

8:43

It just, it works, it works for

8:45

the time being. 46 centuries later, here

8:47

we are. Wild, wild. So since it

8:49

was built, it has generated several different

8:52

stories about what the mythology behind it

8:54

is, some from its own time, some

8:56

in the more modern day, but from

8:59

the New Kingdom on, it was identified

9:01

as this Canaanite god named Horan, who

9:03

was seen and worshipped as a solar

9:05

deity. The Egyptians love a solar deity.

9:08

That's just how it would be. There's

9:10

a lot of sun out there. The

9:12

two great pyramids that were built in

9:14

its like shadow in its wake were

9:17

for the pharaohs Kufu and Keferin. And

9:19

their placement on either side of the

9:21

Sphinx was meant to mimic the two

9:24

mountains of the horizon with the Sphinx

9:26

acting as the sun rising between them.

9:28

Cool. Now there is a story of

9:30

the Sphinx from the 14th century

9:33

BCE. Now keep in mind again

9:35

26th century BCE was when it

9:37

was built. Now this story which

9:39

is inscribed in a granite slab

9:41

between the front paws of the

9:43

Sphinx still to this day tells

9:46

the story of how a prince

9:48

named Thutmus once visited the area

9:50

on a hunting trip. When the

9:52

prince came across the statue it

9:54

had been buried by the desert

9:57

with only its head still partially

9:59

exposed. It's hot in the desert.

10:01

This guy has been on a

10:03

hunting trip all day. He is

10:06

grateful for the shade in the

10:08

heat of the desert. So he

10:10

lays down between the front of

10:12

the statue and falls asleep. As

10:14

he falls asleep, he has this

10:16

dream where the great sphinx speaks

10:19

to him, quote, as a father

10:21

speaks to his son, and calls

10:23

himself, Horay Maket, or Horace of

10:25

the Horizon. And he tells the

10:27

prince that he was quote, ailing

10:30

in all of his limbs because

10:32

the desert sands were crushing him

10:34

under their weight. Oh, right. And

10:36

he tells the prince that if

10:38

the prince frees him from the

10:40

sands, he would enjoy a long

10:42

life and would one day become

10:45

king. I mean, that sounds like

10:47

a pretty good bargain. Honestly? Yeah.

10:49

Well, think about how huge the

10:51

statue is and it's buried like

10:53

a lot of feet underneath the

10:55

sand, right? I think several weeks'

10:57

hard toil is worth a lifetime

10:59

of prosperity and maybe being king. The

11:01

prince awakes from his dream. He

11:04

sends for workers. Unfortunately, the rest

11:06

of the slab is damaged, so

11:08

we don't know how the story

11:10

ends. But we do know historically...

11:12

Oh shit. This prince does eventually

11:14

become the pharaoh. And it seems like

11:16

he led the charge in helping to

11:18

unearth the Sphinx. as well as build

11:21

these mud brick walls that were intended

11:23

to keep sand away from the body

11:25

of the Sphinx. Wow, that's amazing. And

11:28

also just, I mean, how humbling, right,

11:30

that this was four and a half

11:32

thousand years ago, and... 1,200 years after

11:35

it was built, somebody was like, this

11:37

has been here forever, we have to

11:39

excavate it. Like, just the idea of

11:42

it already being semi-buried, semi-forgotten, it reminds

11:44

me that history did not start in

11:46

1992 when I was born, and certainly

11:48

not in my living memory. And we've

11:50

always looked at things that pre-existed us

11:52

and said, like, I wonder where that

11:54

came from. I wonder why this is

11:56

here. And what's really cool is this

11:58

story is also a common. motif in

12:00

a lot of Egyptian storytelling and

12:02

history and mythology with like the

12:04

sun god is under attack by

12:07

the forces of chaos in this

12:09

case the sands of the desert

12:11

and needs help to be quote-unquote

12:13

reborn. We need to get that

12:15

mahat balanced. So we've asked forward

12:17

to the arrival of the Arab

12:19

inhabitants of Egypt during the medieval

12:21

period. They viewed the great Sphinx

12:23

as what they referred to as the

12:26

father of terror. Basically a guardian

12:28

of hidden treasure which would sometimes

12:30

reveal the treasure to the truly

12:33

worthy. Right? Okay. Now one legend

12:35

out of this period says that

12:37

the Sphinx kept the sand from

12:39

overwhelming Giza. until a overly zealous

12:42

religious man destroyed the power by

12:44

mutilating the statue's face, which is

12:46

the origin of the Great Sphinx's

12:48

missing nose. I gotta say, he's

12:50

much more striking without the nose.

12:53

It gives him a certain lure,

12:55

you know, a certain mystery. Makes

12:57

him look battle tested. Yeah. Even

12:59

nowadays, the Great Sphinx is seen

13:02

as a guardian of hidden wisdom,

13:04

though, like what that wisdom is,

13:06

is kind of up to who's

13:08

telling the story and interpretation. But

13:11

Amanda, but besides the great Sphinx,

13:13

there are other Sphinxes in Egyptian

13:15

art. They're often shown trampling the

13:17

enemies of Egypt or those who

13:19

went against the divine order of

13:21

Mahat. There is also something called

13:23

the double Sphinx, which is known

13:26

as Akar, who It was said

13:28

to be the Guardian of the

13:30

Two Horizons and also protected the

13:32

entrance and exit of Duat, which

13:34

is the underworld. All this is

13:36

very impressive, Julia, but I'm not

13:39

hearing any riddles. Like, if anything,

13:41

it was a prophetic dream, which, you

13:43

know, no, not to knock a prophetic

13:45

dream, but it's not riddling. Exactly,

13:47

exactly, so this, again, we're only

13:49

a protector spirit, really, for the

13:51

Egyptian Sphinx. We will get to

13:54

our riddle. guy in a second. Now

13:56

Amanda real quick, when I say doubles

13:58

things, what are you picturing here? I was

14:00

picturing one lion body two

14:02

heads. Yeah, Amanda, so it's a

14:05

two human fronts opposite of each

14:07

other bound by a lion body

14:09

in what I consider a cat

14:12

dog situation. Oh, that's even

14:14

worse than I imagined. Yeah. So

14:16

it's not like a centaur where

14:18

we have shared hips leading to

14:21

two torsos. No, it's just a

14:23

cat dog situation. Oh, no. Yeah,

14:25

it's pretty bad. Also, during the first

14:27

millennium BCE, there was a Sphinx god

14:30

known as Tutu, who gained in popularity

14:32

during this time. He was usually seen

14:34

as a standing Sphinx, so like on

14:36

his hind legs, with wings, and also

14:39

a snake for a tail, who was

14:41

invoked to keep enemies at a safe

14:43

distance and was said to be the

14:45

son of the goddess Neith. Now I

14:48

am just picturing like an orange cat,

14:50

which we all know to be like

14:52

the lovingly derby ones, just like sitting

14:54

on their on their hide legies,

14:56

little paws up. Yeah, yeah, very cute. I

14:58

like that. Very cute. It's also

15:01

interesting because it seems like the

15:03

winged Sphinx is a later development

15:05

in Egypt and would directly influence

15:08

the Sphinx of Greek mythology. I

15:10

mean, the Egyptian Sphinx. The Egyptian

15:12

sphinx sounds incredibly powerful already. I don't

15:14

know if you need to add wings

15:16

to a lion in order to make

15:18

that lion a very effective protector.

15:20

But it does seem cool, doesn't it?

15:22

I mean, it is cool. It is

15:24

cool. But Amanda, this leads us beautifully

15:26

into our Greek sphinx. Yay! Now our

15:28

Greek sphinx was a woman with the

15:30

body of a lioness wings and from

15:32

the chest up a woman's body. Mm-hmm. Now

15:35

she was said to be the

15:37

daughter of typhin and echidna, who

15:39

also spawned several other important monsters

15:41

in Greek mythology like the chimera,

15:44

the Nemean lion, Cerberus, the Lernaiian

15:46

hydra, for example, and how she

15:48

got into the mix of Greek

15:51

mythology I think is somewhat interesting.

15:53

It was said to have started

15:55

with the hero Cadmus, who you

15:57

might remember killed a dress. of

16:00

Aries in order to found the city

16:02

of Thebes. Okay, all right. And the

16:04

Greek gods, as we know, love to

16:06

hold a grudge. So in revenge

16:08

for killing his dragon, Aries summoned

16:10

the Sphinx to a cave just

16:12

outside the city of Thebes. Okay.

16:14

Now she from this cave would

16:16

observe all who passed by to

16:18

enter the city and occasionally would

16:20

ravage the land surrounding Thebes just

16:22

basically like being a menace. Now

16:24

one of the things she would

16:27

do was when people attempted to

16:29

enter the city of Thebes would

16:31

pose a riddle to those who

16:33

got too close to her. And

16:35

now I think this is a riddle

16:37

that most people are probably familiar with,

16:39

especially if you are familiar with Greek

16:41

mythology at all, but the riddle was,

16:44

what animal is that which in the

16:46

morning goes by four feet, at noon

16:48

on two feet, and on the evening

16:50

upon three? That would be the human

16:53

being which we are born, crawling, for

16:55

much of our life and then often

16:57

use a cane to help our mobility.

16:59

Yes, now Amanda if you hadn't been

17:01

able to solve that riddle which was

17:04

pretty much anyone in Greek mythology up

17:06

until a certain point. I mean I

17:08

wouldn't know it if I hadn't been

17:10

taught it you know what I mean?

17:12

Like that that is often the case

17:14

with riddles where there is just like

17:16

an unexplained or un- forecasted, like expanding

17:18

of a given word. So this is

17:20

like morning, noon, and night is meant

17:22

to be over your lifetime and not

17:24

over a day. And so it's like,

17:26

oh, you idiot, you didn't know that

17:29

I meant that it was the whole

17:31

life, but you wouldn't know unless someone

17:33

told you. Yeah. And in that case,

17:35

if you were a Theebian merchant, for

17:37

example, trying to leave the city or

17:40

bring in goods, you'd be. I mean,

17:42

sucks. So what's the what's the thought

17:44

here? Was she just a menace having

17:46

fun or is this some kind of

17:49

like filtering mechanism where only the, I

17:51

don't know, saviest at riddles of vendors

17:53

get in? Well, here's the thing.

17:55

Aries wanted to basically destroy

17:57

the city because people could...

18:00

come in and out of the city

18:02

or would get eaten if they like

18:04

went into the lands of the city

18:06

outside the city walls things were not

18:08

good in Thebes. Got it. So this

18:10

is we're sort of approaching like

18:12

fairy tale logic where they set

18:14

up an impossible task that's meant

18:17

to be impossible. Yes. So many Thebeans

18:19

were killed by the Sphinx including the

18:21

Prince of Thebes himself. Oh shit. Now

18:23

the king, Krion, then decreed that the

18:26

person who rid the land of the

18:28

Sphinx would inherit the throne. Because now

18:30

he doesn't have an heir, so he's

18:33

like, please get rid of the Sphinx,

18:35

and then you can be my new

18:37

heir, right? Sucks. Now, Oedipus, here's about

18:40

this challenge, takes it up. He goes

18:42

to the mountain where the Sphinx lives

18:44

and has her riddle posed to him.

18:46

And then the young man provides

18:49

the answer, just like you did

18:51

Amandaanda, which was, man. As soon as

18:53

Oedipus solves the riddle correctly, the

18:55

Sphinx throws herself from the mountain

18:58

to her death and Oedipus inherits

19:00

the throne. And we all know

19:03

what happens after that. Oh, baby.

19:05

Okay, so the Sphinx was like

19:07

so embarrassed to be bested by

19:10

a man or a human that

19:12

she was like, well, that's it

19:15

for me. Basically, more or less.

19:17

Wow. Yeah, so when you said like, oh,

19:19

is this a filtering mechanism? I'm like,

19:21

no, no, no, no, because the

19:23

minute she gets a correct answer,

19:25

she is done for. Oh boy.

19:27

Now, I will say, there is

19:30

also a second riddle that the

19:32

Sphinx posed to citizens of thieves

19:34

in alternate stories. Would you like

19:36

to hear this one? Please. There are

19:38

two sisters. One gives birth to the

19:40

other, and she in turn gives birth

19:42

to the first. Who are the two

19:45

sisters? Julia, this is going to be

19:47

the sun and the moon! The answer

19:49

is technically day and night Amanda, but

19:51

you're correct. That's close enough that I

19:53

don't think you would get eaten by

19:56

the Sphinx. Yes. Now I know we've done

19:58

a lot of focus on just the... sphinxes

20:00

at this point, but there are plenty of

20:02

other riddling spirits and riddling tales out there

20:05

Amanda in the world and I will tell

20:07

you a little bit more about them just

20:09

as soon as we get back from our

20:12

refill. Let's go. Hey,

20:16

this is Julia and welcome

20:18

to the refill. Of course, we

20:21

have to start by thinking

20:23

our newest patrons, Mia and White

20:25

Snake Ferry 26. Welcome. You

20:27

join the ranks of our supporting

20:29

producer-level patrons like Alicia Ann,

20:31

Hannah, Jane, Lily, Matthew, Rico, like

20:34

Scott, Will, and Ah, as well,

20:36

as our legend-level patrons, Audrey,

20:38

and Hey. You too can join

20:41

the ranks of our patron

20:43

by going to patreon.com/spirits podcast and

20:45

getting cool rewards like our

20:47

brand new recommendation newsletter that we're

20:49

going to be sending out every

20:52

single month. Bonus urban legends

20:54

episodes, add free episodes, recipe cards

20:56

for every single episode, and

20:58

so much more. Check it out.

21:01

Go to patreon.com/spirits podcast today.

21:03

And hey, if you love our

21:05

show, I bet you're also

21:07

going to love Attach your

21:09

resume, which is one of the

21:11

brand new shows from Multitude

21:13

that interviews online creators about how

21:16

their jobs work and how

21:18

they got there. You can hear

21:20

personal stories behind seismic events

21:22

in digital media and learn what

21:25

concrete steps we can take

21:27

to build a sustainable media landscape

21:29

hosted by longtime producers and business

21:32

owners Eric and Amanda. That's

21:34

our Amanda. Attach your resume proves

21:36

that the best credential for

21:38

deciding the future of media is

21:40

actually making media. Season one

21:42

is available to Marathon through right

21:45

now as they're working on season

21:47

two and you can subscribe

21:49

to Attach your resume in your

21:52

podcast app right now. Check

21:54

it out. Answered

23:10

by TalkSpace. You know when you're

23:12

really stressed or not feeling so

23:14

great about your life or about

23:16

yourself? Talking to someone who understands

23:19

can really help. But who is

23:21

that person? How do you find

23:23

them? Where do you even start?

23:25

TalkSpace. TalkSpace makes it easy to

23:27

get the support you need. With

23:29

TalkSpace, you can go online, answer

23:31

a few questions about your preferences,

23:33

and be matched with a therapist.

23:35

And because you'll meet your therapist

23:37

online, you'll meet your therapist at

23:39

ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling

23:41

with a relationship, or if you want

23:43

some counseling for you and your partner,

23:46

or just need a little extra one-on-one

23:48

support, TalkSpace is here for you. Plus,

23:50

TalkSpace works with most major insurers, and

23:53

most insured members have a $0 copay.

23:55

No insurance? No problem. Now, get $80

23:57

off of your first month with promo

23:59

code Space80 when you go to talkspace.com.

24:02

Match with a licensed therapist therapist today

24:04

at talkspace.com. Save. you