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play ball like a doll! Go

2:39

on, do one kid. Jenny

2:42

off the blocks. Hello, Jen

2:44

here to tell you about today's It

2:47

Is What It Is episode on this

2:49

fine Friday. I'm going to come back

2:51

to that in just a minute. First

2:53

of all, I want to tell you

2:56

about what is coming up on next

2:58

week's podcast. For your Monday interview, Mickey

3:00

is chatting to actress, very much an

3:02

actress, Denise Gough, about her starring

3:05

role in People, Places and

3:07

Things, among other, uh,

3:09

things. In the Tuesday

3:11

interview, I will be talking

3:14

to journalist Ellen Atlanta about

3:16

her absolutely fantastic book, Pixel

3:18

Flesh, which is a sort of beauty

3:20

myth for the digital age. You won't

3:22

want to miss that. There's no

3:24

rated or dated next week because of,

3:27

you know, holidays, but Hannah and I

3:29

will be back with the Bush Telegraph

3:31

on Thursday and on Friday, you will

3:33

have a brand new outside

3:36

the box, you lucky, lucky

3:38

things. Back to today's interview

3:40

in which I am joined by

3:42

football journalist Kiva O'Neill to talk

3:45

about the Euros, which

3:47

are kicking off next week

3:49

in Germany. Both

3:51

England and Scotland, Scotland are through

3:54

to the tournament and Scotland are

3:56

up first against host nation Germany

3:59

before England. take on

4:01

Denmark. But how will the

4:03

home nations fair? Kiva

4:05

joins me to talk about her not

4:07

one but two Scotland shirts, whether or

4:09

not football really is coming home and

4:11

what's next for my adoptive dad, Gareth

4:14

Southgate. I hope you enjoyed this as

4:16

much as I enjoyed talking to Kiva

4:18

and I hope that you enjoy the

4:20

Euros. I'm

4:25

joined by Kiva O'Neill, journalist

4:27

at The Athletic, Liverpool FC

4:29

supporter. God, I hope I'm right about that. Otherwise,

4:32

I could have just caused major offence

4:34

and all-round decent human. I am

4:37

right, you do support Liverpool, don't you? Yes, I

4:39

do. You do? Okay, so how are you

4:41

feeling, commiserations? It's obviously been

4:43

a brutal, brutal couple

4:45

of months, brutal weekend. Goodbye,

4:48

Jürgen. How do we feel?

4:51

You know what, I absolutely love Sunday. I

4:53

went to the matches of Farrand and ended

4:55

up meeting these random people,

4:58

which is often what happens when you go to a

5:00

Liverpool game and then I had

5:02

an amazing night out. It was just one of

5:04

those...it felt like a real celebration.

5:07

Everyone was just in it for like, right, we won

5:09

the league, co-op, we got Champions League, that's

5:12

that. Let's move on and say

5:15

goodbye to Jürgen. That's exactly

5:17

how it felt, just like this big celebration

5:19

and party and, you know, Sculptors

5:21

do their best. Okay,

5:24

so sadly you're not here to talk to

5:26

us about Jürgen Klopp today because I could talk about

5:29

Jürgen Klopp for a long time, to be honest, because

5:31

he's a funny guy. Anyway, the

5:33

Euros are coming up starting on June

5:36

the 14th, so England and

5:38

Scotland have qualified. So

5:41

let's talk, first of all, about

5:43

the groups, if we can. Caves.

5:45

Scotland are Group A. So the

5:47

upper games, host nation Germany, Hungary

5:49

and Switzerland, how do you fancy

5:52

Scotland's chances of progressing

5:54

in the tournament cave? I mean, not a tough

5:56

one, but I'm all in for them, like I've

5:58

already bowled to Scotland here. and I'm gonna

6:00

wear them in the office on the days that

6:03

Scotland play. As my mum tells me,

6:05

we have got ancestry linked into Scotland so I'm

6:07

all in for Scotland. It's a

6:09

tough roof isn't it? Because I just think you've

6:11

got to pick up points and you've got to

6:13

pick them up as soon as possible but obviously

6:16

starting against Germany makes that difficult

6:18

but whatever happens in that game

6:20

then they've still got the games

6:22

against Hungary and Switzerland so you

6:25

know you'd fancy that they'd be up for

6:27

it and can get something out of those

6:29

games. We know how difficult it is when

6:31

it comes to the auras and I mean

6:35

surely surely they

6:37

can do something like I'm hoping for

6:39

something but I think just getting there

6:42

was a massive achievement but

6:44

they'll want to get through the group stages

6:46

and see what can happen because that's the

6:48

true joy isn't it? No one wants to

6:50

leave early. I mean I don't

6:52

think of Hungary as a great footballing nation.

6:55

Germany have been pretty hit and

6:57

miss over the last few tournaments but I don't have

7:00

my eye on them at all. I don't know who

7:02

they've got coming through at the moment. Switzerland

7:05

I feel like they've done a bit

7:07

better in recent tournaments.

7:10

Switzerland you can never really rule out.

7:12

They just seem to put in performances

7:15

that go above and beyond

7:17

sometimes so it looks like a difficult group

7:19

just looking at it but again you know

7:22

like you say Germany have struggled in

7:24

in competitions in recent years so you

7:27

know will will they have that pressure of it

7:29

you know being the host nation or will they

7:31

absolutely you know get into the strides from the

7:33

opening game and do what you

7:35

know they have done in many tournaments just

7:37

not recent ones. It's funny isn't

7:39

it because I think people like there's a

7:41

lot of kind of like hyperbole when when

7:43

a team that has traditionally been considered like

7:46

good at football like I don't know England

7:48

for example in 2016 where

7:51

we had a terrible time

7:54

at the euro and obviously Germany have

7:56

not you know they've underperformed the last

7:58

couple of tournaments I don't

8:00

know, I'm sure we've seen other Italy were

8:03

brilliant for a while and then obviously not

8:05

so much at the moment. Is

8:08

that just like a normal cyclical

8:10

thing? Like you have a good group of

8:12

players, they kind of retire around the same

8:15

time and then it's just a case of

8:17

we're looking to see who's coming through next.

8:19

It's just, you know, should

8:21

we be that shocked when these big

8:23

teams underperform? I think because you kind

8:25

of grow up in Germany, Italy, in

8:27

Edelands, all these teams in Europe, it's

8:30

like similar to Spain I guess, you

8:32

know, with their success and then when

8:34

they don't win it's kind of like,

8:36

oh, you know, that's not

8:38

good. There's always a golden generation of

8:40

players isn't there, but then I'm always like,

8:42

is there? Because now England have Jude Bellingham,

8:45

so is this, you know, surely

8:47

it's always going to be a golden generation with

8:49

them in the team. But you know, it feels

8:51

like, you know, we're always talking

8:53

about that, aren't we? Like different teams have sort

8:55

of faltered at different times and

8:58

had success at different times. Like

9:00

Italy are obviously holders, you know, they

9:02

come into this as reigning

9:05

champions and be England in their

9:07

final. Yeah, you know, they

9:09

struggled to actually qualify for tournaments in

9:11

recent years as well. And so it's

9:13

just, yeah, it's a bit up and

9:15

down as a net, but I

9:18

think you can never truly rule anyone

9:20

else at the Euros and I think

9:23

that's why it's so good. So

9:25

England, a group C, are you an

9:28

England supporter because your name would suggest

9:30

to me that you are Irish? Yeah,

9:33

so half Irish. Yeah. Like I said before,

9:35

I'm in for Scotland too. I wouldn't be

9:37

like the world's biggest England fan. I'm a

9:39

massive Lionessers fan, probably grew up more of

9:42

an England fan and then, kind of like,

9:44

you know, being a Liverpool

9:46

fan took up so much time, you

9:49

know, you just focus on that. Obviously, love

9:51

Ireland as well. So

9:53

yeah, I'm a bit torn, to be honest. I

9:55

just like football. I'm just a

9:57

football fan, I'd like to say. I was

9:59

busy watching. in Love Island I couldn't I

10:01

couldn't keep up with England and their international

10:03

tournaments fair play. So look England or group

10:05

C up against Slovenia, Denmark

10:08

and Serbia. I would be very

10:10

surprised if we didn't progress but you

10:12

know stranger things have happened. What

10:15

happens after that? Assuming that

10:17

we do progress do you think we've got

10:19

good chances? Where do you think we

10:22

look in the picture in terms of Europe

10:24

at the moment? Yeah I think England come

10:26

into this haven't obviously finished and run us

10:28

up and they'll want to exceed

10:30

this tournament. It could be potentially kind of

10:32

self-cate last depending on how it goes. I

10:34

guess if they win it maybe they'll

10:37

want to stay. I think he said in interviews that

10:39

you know maybe he'd need a long holiday if they

10:41

do win it and that would be fair enough for

10:43

him to take. I loved his you know the 33

10:45

man squad. I thought it was

10:47

actually the one where he's you know you've kind

10:49

of wanted to shake him a little bit and be like

10:51

you know can you just put this player in and that

10:54

player and stop picking that player and he's

10:56

kind of done that a little bit in terms of

10:58

you know not going for Jordan Henderson leaving

11:00

Marcus Rashford out. These are like big

11:02

moments for Gareth self-cate and I think

11:04

we'll define the tournament. We know he's

11:07

got to cut seven more players but I

11:09

think just including players that

11:11

might not make the full squad

11:14

like Curtis Jones obviously a

11:16

well-deserved call up to him, Janelle Kwanza. You

11:18

know these are players that might not make

11:21

the 26 man squad when that's announced on

11:23

I think December to June. But just naming

11:25

them I think just spoke of maybe a

11:27

new direction and I think the one where

11:30

he'd be like Luke Shaw's not played for

11:32

a while and sort of the

11:34

concerns of his injury and whether he'll be

11:36

fit. There's loads of little things isn't there

11:38

within each position everything else but I

11:40

think you know he's like Cobie

11:42

Maynow and Cole Palmer and it just

11:45

it feels exciting. I think

11:47

that's one of the things obviously he's done, I

11:49

mean he worked with the youth team before he

11:51

worked with the with the senior squad but some

11:54

of the people coming through are like young enough that he he

11:56

won't have worked with them in the youth squad because obviously he's

11:58

been an England manager for quite a while. a while now,

12:00

how significant is it that he's ditched Rashford?

12:02

Because Rashford's been poor this season. You know,

12:04

is that going to give him the shake-up

12:06

that he needs to kind of crack

12:09

on next season? Or do you think like the

12:11

rot at Manchester United is? What do you think

12:13

is going on there? Yeah, I mean, watching him

12:15

last season, I remember when he had that like

12:18

fantastic goal scoring run. And you

12:20

know, you can hear from my accent, I'm not going to be sporting

12:22

on your night for any time soon. Of course, yeah, yeah. It

12:24

was enjoyable to watch. And you know, when he had

12:26

the celebration and you know, it just

12:29

felt like it was, you know, he was shutting all the

12:31

noise off outside. There's been a lot of

12:33

talk about him and there's always things happening

12:35

and going on. And he's playing for Man

12:37

United and is a goal scorer.

12:39

Like there's always going to be those things when

12:42

you're not scoring goals and not performing to the

12:44

levels that you can show because, you know, at

12:46

his best, he's a world-class footballer, but getting to

12:48

that level and staying at it, which you know,

12:50

he's obviously struggled to do. I think

12:53

he's been amazing in terms of

12:55

off the pitch and everything he

12:57

did in terms of preschool dinners

12:59

and pushing that forward. I think,

13:01

you know, he's so

13:03

likeable on someone

13:05

that you would have hoped if he had the best at

13:07

seeing him, he would be in the squad, but it just

13:09

makes sense that he's not because he hadn't performed to the

13:11

levels. And I think that just shows

13:14

that I think everyone's kind of

13:16

looking at this thinking, well, Southgate hasn't just

13:18

gone, I always pick you, so I'm going

13:20

to pick you again. He's actually gone, well,

13:22

I'm going to include Ollie Watkins and Ivan

13:24

Toney and obviously you've got Harry Kane there,

13:26

but, you know, Ivan Toney might

13:28

not make the full squad or whoever. But

13:30

I think it's in terms of like, you

13:32

know, he's just gone for like

13:34

Jared Bowen and different players to

13:37

make that call. And obviously it's a difficult

13:40

one. And I think Rashford,

13:42

you know, he can work his way back

13:45

up to that level definitely. And maybe this will be good

13:47

for him, you know, that, to have

13:49

that break and read these sorts of

13:52

things through. Does he stay at Man United

13:54

and everything else? And I just think as

13:56

well, it's similar to Henderson, isn't it? It

13:58

would have felt right he's an experienced player,

14:00

we know what he's achieved

14:02

in football and how important

14:04

he's been to Dallas Southgate

14:06

in this England setup. Again,

14:09

you want to bring in younger players and you

14:11

still have those leaders in that team as

14:13

well. And this is the frustration, isn't it, that

14:15

I think we've had with England managers in

14:17

the past. There was a point where, obviously in

14:20

his day, absolutely brilliant, but there was a point

14:22

where it was like, oh my God, why

14:24

is Wayne Rooney, why is this guy coming back

14:28

again? It gets to a point where you're

14:30

just like, what, this just feels like

14:32

a loyalty thing and like, loyalty is great,

14:34

but obviously we want to win stuff, right?

14:36

So we want to have the best players

14:38

out there. I mean, I've seen it described

14:40

on the internet, I wish I could remember

14:42

who to credit this to, something like, fair

14:44

play, this is Southgate, I'm growing my hair

14:46

and getting a flash car squad, like,

14:50

this is kind of like, I'm just

14:52

going, I'm going all in now, I'm just

14:54

like, fuck it, let's have a go. Should

14:56

we be worried about Harry Kane? Because he's

14:59

injured at the moment. So he's,

15:01

I think he's missed the end of the

15:03

season in the Bundesliga, which is obviously where

15:05

he's gone to post Spurs.

15:09

What does that mean for England? Do you think we should be worried

15:11

about that or do we have enough other

15:13

talent to see us through? There

15:15

is enough, like, in terms of

15:17

the team around Harry Kane, but you still

15:20

want to be a focal point, don't you?

15:22

Like, he scores goals, he's a

15:24

world-class football, he scored so many goals by

15:26

Munich, I'm like, still scratch me, I

15:28

doubt he didn't win a trophy. How

15:31

the hell did that happen? He's

15:33

not only, you know, the captain,

15:35

but he's the

15:37

focal point, the pinnacle of that team. So

15:40

without him, it loses so much. I think

15:42

there are players there that can play,

15:44

you know, you've got Phil Pho's news in

15:47

the form of his career, yeah, you know,

15:49

he'll eventually be even better than he is

15:51

now, because that's the way it seems to

15:53

be going every season for Phil Pho, and

15:55

you've got a player like Anthony Gordon there,

15:57

you can make things happen

16:00

as a... There's so many talented

16:02

footballers and forwards in this England team that

16:04

you know You think that they

16:07

could get through games without tie-kating? but

16:09

I think when it comes down to it you want

16:11

him on the pitch because you can Absolutely

16:14

finish from anywhere and he's just that like that

16:16

leader that would know if you're playing against

16:18

high-kate I'm gonna be like oh my god like

16:20

I'm This is gonna be tough,

16:23

you know because it's all around play the hold

16:25

up everything about some Even just

16:27

like defending corners for his own team, you

16:29

know, he puts everything in so I think

16:31

you know He is crucial and England

16:34

I think any kind of injury will definitely be

16:36

sweating on it Ryan

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comm slash switch uhh,

17:06

you. So

17:14

in terms of Scotland and England are

17:17

there any Youngsters that

17:19

you're looking forward to seeing on

17:21

either of those teams for

17:24

England Coby Manchester

17:26

United like he's Quite

17:29

a nowhere for a lot of people obviously man.

17:31

You know, man's probably know him But you know

17:33

just looks like the absolute business I'm

17:35

excited to see you know what he

17:37

can achieve this summer because I do think he'll

17:40

have his place given already Paid

17:42

for England and was in the last squad. So I

17:44

just think he's a player. I think is he 19

17:46

which is Just scares me.

17:48

They just keep getting younger and we

17:50

just keep getting older And I

17:53

think he's one definitely to keep an

17:55

eye on and then in terms of

17:57

Scotland well, I'm always excited to see

18:00

Andy Robertson, Captain Scotland obviously had the

18:02

big injury this season which kept him

18:04

out and I think probably looking back

18:06

to Cost Liverpool in a lot of

18:09

ways just for that leadership. He is

18:12

definitive of just Scotland isn't

18:14

he? Everything about him is

18:16

Scottish and that leader and

18:18

just that powerful character

18:21

and funny character as well. I think

18:24

he sums up everything, everything, gods and

18:26

greys about Scotland. I'm really excited to

18:28

see Ben Doke at his first call

18:31

up. He's a Yule Liverpool player, he's

18:34

a special one. I mean he's been basically

18:36

back up to Mo Salah this season. He's

18:38

had a bit of an injury and he's

18:41

overcome that now but yeah what an amazing opportunity

18:43

it is for him. I think he's going to

18:45

be one of those players that when you watch

18:47

Scotland if he plays Yule loses him

18:49

straight away on the wing because he's

18:51

so so talented. He's 18 and

18:54

yeah I think he's a name that a

18:56

lot of people will start to know very

18:58

soon. Okay so let's talk about Gareth Southgate

19:00

briefly. Now I'm not expecting us to win,

19:02

not because of any real like I'm not

19:05

really basing that on anything other than that

19:08

I'm disillusioned and conditioned to expect the worst when

19:10

it comes to football. What do you think this

19:12

will mean for Southgate? What's going

19:14

to happen? Because when he came in he had

19:16

these different sort of things that

19:18

he wanted to get through and you know he's

19:20

done two World Cups

19:23

and a Euro. This will be

19:25

his second Euro with England. If

19:27

we don't come home with a

19:29

trophy this time I would

19:32

think that would be the end for Southgate.

19:34

What do you think? I get the feeling

19:36

it might be anything like maybe it's just

19:39

run its course and this is the last

19:41

dance almost. Like what he's quietly achieved has

19:43

been phenomenal really. Oh yeah. He's

19:46

revitalised England's fanbase completely

19:48

by getting far a

19:50

major tournament back to back and

19:53

qualifying for them. There's never ever been a

19:55

question and that should be the way with England. You shouldn't

19:57

really ever have to be like oh my

20:00

god. you know, will we qualify, like sweating

20:02

at any point, it just there's never been

20:04

that sort of worry. And

20:06

I think this feels

20:08

like the moment to

20:10

really like, achieve everything

20:13

that he's been able to put down

20:15

and the foundations there

20:18

already in place now, you feel like to

20:21

end with a trophy would be a great

20:23

way to go else. But then the

20:26

worry almost is that you win a trophy like the

20:28

Euros and then it's like, well, carry on. And I

20:30

think this, you know, it does feel like the right

20:32

time maybe to just be like, enjoy

20:35

this and then move on and see what direction

20:37

England going after that. I do not know who's

20:39

the manager that everyone's going to be told the

20:41

most at the end of the summer, because I

20:43

think that will be a thing. But I

20:46

think for self-great, it would be great to see even

20:48

when he, you know, went through with an England player,

20:50

to see him accomplish something

20:54

with the team and win the Euros after

20:56

getting so close to doing it last time,

20:58

I think would be a pretty remarkable

21:00

and special achievement. And one that this

21:03

group of players can achieve, like they

21:05

go into this tournament and

21:07

they are among the favorites. It's weird because

21:09

self-gating is still, you know, when you think

21:11

of England managers, you kind of think of

21:14

like these old dudes in these, you know,

21:16

sheepskin coats or whatever. And self-gating is quite

21:18

a young man still, like where would he

21:21

go from here? Because it feels like to go

21:23

from managing a team on

21:26

the international stage to

21:29

domestic club football. It's

21:32

a very different ball game, isn't it? Like

21:34

no pun intended, but like it's a very

21:37

different setup that week in week out, usually

21:39

people do it the other way around, don't

21:41

they? Like they put in the graph there

21:43

and then they move into international football because

21:46

it's a bit more laid back in some

21:48

ways and then intense in

21:50

others. Yeah, for a lot of people, he's

21:52

already been in the biggest job. So where

21:54

do you go from there? Anything

21:57

might feel like a step. on

22:00

and where do you actually go other than

22:02

on holiday and you know I think that's

22:05

probably a sensible move and

22:07

then Go Palt is optioned. I think he'd

22:09

be great at like in a role still

22:11

at England or you know like he just

22:13

he has like the sport and directed energy

22:15

to me and he just seems like a

22:17

pretty chilled I don't know if he's got

22:20

that sort of dream for himself but obviously

22:22

he has been linked with clubs as well

22:24

so whether the end of the summer he

22:27

does sort of appear at a Premier League

22:29

club. I think you know going

22:31

from England to the Premier League given the

22:34

majority of England players are Premier League players

22:36

would be you'd like to think an easy

22:38

sort of transition for him to make but

22:40

I think it'd be really interesting to actually

22:42

see what he's like as

22:44

a manager like week in week out with

22:46

like games every few days and you know

22:48

not have that international where you you know

22:51

you're doing the work in the background and

22:53

the the tele cameras focusing on you because

22:55

you showed up to watch us young game

22:57

run player. What's that going to be like

22:59

for him? I think it's really interesting. I

23:02

mean if he wants a challenge I'm

23:04

sure we'd love to have him at Charlton Athletic but

23:06

um there you go that's

23:09

it that's the job. Southgate to Charlton.

23:12

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