0:00

Today we dive into the story of Dorus

0:02

Galama , founder and CEO of

0:04

Repeat Audio , the modular

0:07

high-fidelity headphones with three

0:09

repairs for life . In this

0:11

conversation , we'll explore how to build

0:13

a consumer brand in the circular economy , pivoting

0:16

from product as a service to product sales

0:19

, and the fine line between failure

0:21

and success in crowdfunding . This

0:24

is Start to Scale , the podcast , where we highlight

0:26

stories of remarkable founders from South Holland and

0:28

delve into their scale-up journeys . My

0:30

name is Lars Krammer and you're listening to Episode

0:33

55 , covering the story

0:35

of Dorus . After he completed

0:37

his master in strategic product design from

0:39

Delft University , doris began to do

0:41

graphic studio work together with his fellow

0:44

student from Delft , tom , and from

0:46

a deep love for music and the determination

0:48

to stand up against the industry with products

0:51

that produced massive electronic waste , they

0:53

started Gerrard Street in

0:55

2015 , which was later renamed

0:57

Repeat Audio , and today Repeat

0:59

offers a range of modular high-fidelity headphones

1:02

, and notable users include the Metropole

1:04

Orchestra and one of the most important

1:06

Dutch rappers , stix . Doris

1:08

also finds time to play the piano and

1:10

gives back as a volunteer by helping refugees . Welcome

1:13

, doris , great to have you here on the show . Thanks , did

1:16

I say anything that was not true in the intro . No

1:19

, I think it was correct . Okay

1:21

, got that sorted . So you

1:23

are a music lover . You've been there for a long

1:25

while . How many headsets have you consumed

1:27

in your life before you founded ? Repeat

1:29

.

1:31

Oh , that's a lot . I used to buy

1:33

Sennheisers the

1:36

cheaper ones , and

1:39

they had this really long cable . The cable

1:41

was attached . You couldn't detach it , so

1:44

you couldn't replace it if it broke , and the cables

1:46

were , I think , three and a half meter .

1:48

Oh , that's really long that you trip over . Exactly

1:51

, yeah .

1:52

And extremely thin , so they

1:54

used to break all the time , okay , and

1:56

I think I bought two per year .

1:59

Oh wow , something like that , yeah , and

2:01

then the broken can't repair them have to , exactly

2:03

, yeah .

2:05

So I also . I didn't want to throw them away Because

2:08

it still . It felt like a valuable piece

2:11

of electronics , so I kept it in my closet

2:13

, doing nothing , and

2:16

I also tried to repair them . But it's impossible

2:18

, because once you open them , everything

2:20

is glued together or

2:23

stuff just breaks . Yeah .

2:26

So , that's it . Okay

2:28

, yeah , that's it . So

2:30

we'll dive into the solution that

2:32

you've created for this problem . But

2:35

so you have been breaking

2:37

them yourself but also using them yourself . It's great to

2:39

talk to you here on this podcast . We

2:41

had you actually on upstream talks

2:43

before , where you talked about circular economy

2:46

and how nice but also

2:48

how difficult it is to compete

2:50

in that space . So really look forward to delving

2:52

into your story here and

2:56

also to dive into , I think , your love brand , because

2:58

that's what you've been creating . But first we start with a

3:00

few statements that you can also with true or false

3:02

. You ready , yeah , yeah . First

3:06

one people buy products because they're

3:08

sustainable .

3:12

Some people do . I'd

3:15

say generally it's false , generally

3:18

false .

3:19

Sometimes I wish I had chosen a less difficult

3:22

market . True

3:25

, we prioritize

3:28

growth over profit . True

3:34

. In a parallel

3:36

universe , I'm probably a rock

3:38

hero , true

3:41

. Okay , maybe we get

3:43

to that parallel universe . Let's

3:45

start with your why . We talked already about the Sennheiser

3:48

phones . I think we live in a

3:50

throwaway society . Right , we

3:52

get a lot of electronic waste and you decided

3:54

to do something about it . Can

3:56

you share your origin story ? So what

3:59

made you decide to start a company

4:01

like repeat ?

4:04

It was , I guess , first of all

4:07

my own frustration

4:09

, so I threw away a lot

4:11

of headphones . But it wasn't

4:13

only headphones . I saw it in a

4:15

lot of electronics that were getting increasingly

4:19

difficult to repair . One

4:22

of the main examples was my Apple

4:24

MacBook , which in previous

4:26

models I could update

4:29

the memory , have

4:31

a new hard disk , et cetera , et cetera . That

4:34

allowed me to use it for about 10 years

4:36

and to upgrade over time . With

4:38

the newer models , suddenly this wasn't possible

4:41

anymore . I

4:43

had a simple failure

4:45

and I took

4:47

it to the repair shop because I wasn't allowed to repair

4:49

it myself anymore . They told me that

4:51

I'd get an entirely new

4:53

motherboard and basically

4:55

just buy a new one because it

4:59

was so expensive . You could rather buy

5:01

a new .

5:01

MacBook , buying new is cheaper than replacing

5:04

a part . Yeah , exactly .

5:08

It wasn't just the headphones that annoyed us

5:10

as industrial designers , and if

5:13

you combine this with so , it's annoying

5:15

from a consumer point of view , but

5:18

if you look at the bigger picture

5:20

, we are throwing away a lot of

5:22

these electronics . Interestingly

5:27

enough , the materials that

5:29

are in these projects

5:31

are getting scarcer and more valuable

5:33

. So there was also an economic potential

5:35

, we felt . So this is why we

5:38

saw this . This is so interesting . Why is the

5:41

world seems to be moving in

5:44

the direction ? There's

5:46

a bigger need in the world , let's say like this . So

5:49

these materials are getting more expensive and

5:51

there's a waste problem , but

5:53

the design of these

5:55

devices is going in the opposite direction .

5:57

It's gluing everything together so you cannot repair and

5:59

replace .

6:00

Exactly yeah , and

6:03

buy more and buy faster , yeah .

6:04

Okay . So I think

6:06

, well , not an easy space to compete in , but

6:09

I think you've found a really nice way of

6:11

doing it . Maybe let's start . I

6:13

think your headphones are used by some

6:15

, I would say , remarkable musicians

6:18

. We just mentioned them , so the Metropole Orchestra . I think that's

6:20

a great example , right ? And a rapper

6:22

. Maybe explain who

6:24

is buying these things . So who are your

6:26

customer segments and why would people buy

6:29

repeat headphones ?

6:34

It's interesting , it's broader . So

6:36

we started off with , let's say , the

6:38

typical early adopter

6:40

, mostly male , between

6:43

20 and 30 years old , young , progressive

6:45

, et cetera . But now

6:47

it's a lot more . It's a lot broader

6:49

than that . Our

6:52

top audience is still between 25

6:54

and 35 years old , but the next

6:57

segment is 50 to 60

6:59

years old . Okay , the

7:03

red line is something

7:06

around sustainability . Because , it's

7:08

a different approach and

7:12

these are not full green

7:14

activists or something

7:16

like that , but they're just annoyed by

7:18

the same things that we are annoyed

7:20

For

7:22

the younger people . They see sometimes

7:25

the broader picture . They

7:28

are talking about circular economy . They

7:30

might buy vintage , they

7:33

might be vegan or vegetarian , etc . And

7:35

they are just looking for ways to improve

7:37

their lifestyle . And

7:39

for the older segment , it's

7:42

for them a means of going back

7:44

to the old time , where they are used

7:47

to having stuff that you can open

7:49

and that you can repair . And they are annoyed

7:51

by the fact that everything

7:53

is glued together and that stuff is made

7:55

so poorly .

7:57

Oh nice , there are two segments and I'm guessing

7:59

both are people that can really enjoy

8:03

good audio , right , because I think you'll get

8:05

your headset if you want to go for quality .

8:07

Definitely .

8:09

That's an interesting insight . So you

8:11

have those two groups , one going back to the old days when everything

8:13

was fixable , and then the younger generation wants to

8:15

probably not only use it but also show

8:17

that they're using something sustainable . We

8:20

have your headphones here and , for those that have never

8:22

seen it , we'll put a link in the show notes . But

8:24

basically you can replace every part , right , so you

8:26

can take the headband off , you can replace a pillow

8:29

, you can pretty much put it together

8:31

.

8:32

Exactly , and so we chose to do this in simple

8:34

modules , so you

8:37

won't have to open up , for

8:39

instance , the sound box or something , and you

8:42

won't have to solder

8:44

stuff . Exactly

8:47

it's click and go , so it's almost

8:50

the ease of

8:52

using card riches in your

8:54

Nintendo .

8:55

Yeah , and then it comes in a small box in

8:57

your mailbox , so it's also easy to send , I

8:59

think it's got a great business model going

9:01

there . However , you're competing

9:03

in a space

9:05

that is dominated by a few large players . You

9:08

mentioned Sennheiser , I think they're Sony right

9:10

, how do you stay afloat

9:12

with these kind of big brands ? How do you

9:14

compete with them ?

9:16

Yeah , obviously that's a big challenge

9:19

. So the

9:21

initial approach that we had was to not

9:23

compete directly with them but go for a protocol

9:25

service model , meaning that

9:28

you couldn't buy our headphones , you paid

9:30

. We started off with 5 euros per

9:32

month in the crowdfunding and , depending

9:36

on the model we ended up with , I

9:38

think 17.50 per month for

9:41

the noise-canceling premium model , and

9:44

this was our way of entering this market

9:46

by not directly competing with the

9:48

big brands . So , if you

9:50

wanted to buy a Sony , you would buy a Sony , but

9:53

typically we would target people that

9:55

bought low-end headphones or

9:58

actually , the majority of them had

10:00

never owned headphones , but they bought these

10:02

cheap earplugs instead . And

10:05

these were the people that just threw away a lot

10:07

of them , actually

10:09

, so was I when I was a student

10:11

. So

10:14

for them , the consideration

10:17

was am I going to buy another

10:19

pair of earplugs the

10:21

fifth one this year , or am

10:23

I going to switch to high-end audio

10:25

stuff that I would never

10:27

buy but I would like to have ?

10:29

Yeah , and then with a subscription , so you pay on a

10:31

monthly basis .

10:32

So this was our initial approach in this market

10:34

and at some point we

10:37

figured let's just try selling them and

10:39

competing directly with Sony

10:42

.

10:43

And why did you make that decision ?

10:46

This was during the COVID period , when

10:48

we started selling a lot to

10:51

businesses and businesses didn't

10:53

want to rent .

10:56

Because everybody in COVID was working behind their computers

10:58

and all of a sudden needed it .

11:00

Exactly for the out

11:02

of home . What's it called Work

11:05

? From home . So

11:08

there was a demand for headphones from

11:10

businesses , but

11:12

a lot of them didn't want to rent , they just want to buy

11:14

the headphones . So fine with us . We

11:17

piloted this , this worked , and

11:20

then we figured okay , let's just try it also

11:22

in B2C , because

11:25

the Project Service Model is just

11:27

extremely difficult . It's financially very

11:29

difficult .

11:31

Why ?

11:31

Because you need to pre-finance , Exactly

11:34

so you need to pre-finance everything and

11:38

money is dripping in actually . So

11:40

if we had a good month , if we sold a lot of

11:42

subscriptions , then by

11:44

the end of the month our bank account was lower than

11:46

at the beginning of the month .

11:48

Did you find somebody to pre-finance that for you ?

11:52

The production cost . We did so . We found

11:54

a production partner who was willing

11:56

to pay all the pre-investments

11:59

, so malls et cetera

12:01

, everything all the pre-financing

12:03

for the production . They would also

12:06

buy the headphones in batches . So

12:08

pre-finance that so for instance 2,000

12:10

, 3,000 headphones , and

12:13

we would just buy per 20 from

12:15

them and pay six months later .

12:18

Okay , well , that's good , and then hopefully

12:20

you've collected the first six months of rent so

12:22

they can make up Exactly . Yeah , so that helped

12:24

a bit .

12:26

But still you have to do these marketing investments et

12:28

cetera . So it's still very

12:31

difficult , and our

12:33

main objection was that we could

12:36

only sell direct to consumer from

12:38

our own webshop , so it

12:41

was impossible for us to sell via

12:44

small stores or via bullcom

12:46

or whatever , which are usually

12:48

still the channels where you can potentially get a lot of

12:50

volume . So we were very much

12:52

bound to this direct to consumer strategy

12:54

, which is

12:57

difficult to scale if you

12:59

don't have a lot of cash .

13:02

So there's two really interesting parts of this story . One

13:04

is having to pre-finance

13:07

, because we always think that product as a service is a really nice

13:09

model , but you forget that you actually do need to

13:11

pre-finance these things . And then obviously that's complexity

13:13

the D2C . You also made a

13:15

segue to finding

13:18

a good partner , because I think we

13:20

speak to a lot of founders and also investors that struggle

13:23

with funding hardware

13:25

in consumer markets , which I think

13:28

is a really difficult combination , and

13:30

you've solved that with a partner . So maybe

13:33

elaborate a little bit on what kind of

13:35

partner did you find and how

13:37

did you set up such an agreement ? And

13:39

aren't you afraid that they will kill you , they will

13:41

steal your idea ? Sorry , three

13:43

questions , yeah , a lot of questions .

13:46

To begin with , how did we set it up ? We

13:49

always knew there were two directions for us . Either

13:51

we would have to raise two

13:54

million , maybe three , Because

13:58

to get into a proper headphones

14:00

factory they

14:02

would require you to buy minimum

14:06

order quantities , usually 20,000 . But

14:08

that's the minimum .

14:09

Yeah , that's the low end and you'll probably relatively

14:11

still pay a lot . Then Exactly , yeah .

14:13

And usually you would have to start

14:15

with your first batch of around 50,000

14:18

headphones , so

14:21

that alone would cost you a few million . That

14:25

was one way to go or the other way

14:28

was to find a production partner

14:30

that would want to pay these costs

14:33

for us , and

14:35

this was a bit of luck .

14:37

So we found one in Rotterdam and

14:39

we didn't know existed oh

14:41

wow , one of the odds .

14:43

Exactly , yeah , and

14:45

the deal was really sweet because it

14:48

was also just the stars

14:50

aligned they

14:53

were producing these low end headphones

14:55

and they were just stepping up to a

14:57

high end factory and

15:00

they were in the midst of making their first

15:02

deal with them . So they had a

15:05

planned order of about 60,000 headphones

15:07

. And this was when we

15:09

came in and they said okay , well , we can try

15:11

to put you in this deal and

15:14

then we'll demand that they will only make 3000

15:17

headphones , which is probably their

15:19

anoint . But the prospect of having

15:21

60,000 headphones plus recurring

15:23

revenue will probably

15:25

make them accept this deal

15:28

which they did yeah so

15:30

this was extremely lucky

15:32

, so there's always a bit of luck in the future .

15:34

Okay , you've been working with that partner ever

15:37

since and

15:41

then flipping to

15:43

your customer side , I think in the intro we talked

15:45

about . Are you selling sustainability or

15:47

are you selling good headphones ? What did you

15:49

learn about how people

15:51

buy these headphones ? Is

15:53

the sustainability part ? Is that enough ? Is that driving

15:56

? What's getting these people from buying

15:58

it ?

15:59

I'd say when we started it was definitely

16:01

not enough . So sustainability wasn't

16:03

the selling point . We even

16:05

didn't use the word in any of

16:07

our ads or on the website . So

16:09

, instead , what we did was explain

16:12

what we did , which is if

16:14

anything breaks , you get a new part for

16:16

free and we retrieve the old

16:18

part and reuse it .

16:20

So really functional . What do you get as a user ? Exactly

16:23

, yeah , so what you say is what you get . Yeah

16:25

.

16:29

And now it's After a while

16:31

. It started to shift a bit . So you see

16:33

that sustainability now is a more important

16:35

factor in people's lives . But

16:38

I'd say the main lesson is Never

16:42

forget what's in it for the user themselves

16:44

. So in our case

16:47

, yes , it's good for the world , you

16:49

know . So if , if anything fails , you

16:51

won't have to throw away the headphone , it won't end

16:53

up at the big e-waste pile . Yeah instead

16:56

, you only replace

16:58

the , the part that's broken

17:00

and Also

17:02

that's not blown away , but we will retrieve

17:04

it and we will reuse it , which , in a lot

17:06

of cases , we actually are

17:08

able to yeah so that's good for the world

17:11

, but of course for you . The benefit

17:13

is that the surface

17:15

is just top-notch and if anything fails you'll

17:17

just go to the website . If you have free repairs forever

17:19

. Yeah or free repairs . It

17:22

won't cost you anything and you can just get

17:24

a free yeah module and

17:26

it will arrive the next day . Yeah . And

17:29

so it's . It's good for the world , but it's also good for

17:32

you . Yeah we still see that

17:34

if we ask people what's the main

17:36

reason for buying , usually

17:38

they will say it's good for the world . But if you

17:40

see what converts ? So

17:43

what are the ? The , the unique

17:45

selling points and things to highlight in ads

17:47

? Yeah . It's more

17:49

what's good for you .

17:50

Okay , that's really interesting because this is also

17:52

, I think , for anybody doing online

17:55

consumer research what people say

17:57

is not always what people do , right . So you

17:59

just made it interesting if you ask you

18:01

, you probably give a , an answer that I'd like

18:03

to hear . But by actually measuring the

18:05

clicks you see what people really say . The military .

18:07

This is because when we started already

18:09

there were these consumer Researches

18:12

, and even ten years ago that said

18:14

that 60% of

18:16

the people says they are willing to buy or

18:20

to spend more on product . If it's sustainable

18:22

stuff like that , yeah , but it they hardly

18:24

ever talk about Hard consumer

18:26

data . Yeah , are they yeah are

18:28

they spending more on ? And

18:30

probably they're

18:33

aren't talking about it because it's just , it's

18:36

hardly there .

18:36

Yeah , no , I can actually . I can imagine , and

18:38

I'm probably also guilty of that . So if

18:40

I buy something , it needs to be comfortable

18:43

, solving my my job to be

18:45

done , first Mm-hmm and then , if it's

18:47

sustainable , it really adds . I mean , then it

18:49

ranks up right purchasing decision . But

18:51

actually paying more for a

18:54

sustainable product . Well , maybe I'm an outlier anyway , so I

18:56

do it sometimes , but I think I'm not the general public

18:58

buying these things .

18:59

So and still the product need to be

19:01

sold , a solid that's it .

19:02

Yeah , that's the .

19:04

I think , that's the most important . So we went to Tony Chocolonely

19:06

in the beginning and we talked to

19:08

their marketing director and she

19:11

explained to us like the , the

19:14

mission is cool and it's it's

19:16

what makes the brand right . Yeah but in the

19:18

end of the day it just needs to

19:20

be tasty chocolate . Yeah , it needs to taste

19:22

good . If it's horrible , then

19:24

we couldn't sell it and for us

19:26

it's the same . You know that it

19:29

I think it's we are trying

19:31

to build a love brand . Definitely it is lifestyle

19:33

, it's , it's . It

19:36

has a very cool promise , etc . But

19:39

in the end of the day , the

19:41

headphones just need to be really good

19:44

.

19:44

That's where it all starts . That's where it all starts and

19:46

all kind of brands come to mind now I will not mention

19:49

them that are not delivering on the promise just because

19:51

they are sustainable , which is build crap

19:53

products . Anyways , we talked

19:55

a bit about profits Versus

19:57

growth , or at least I put

19:59

a statement in there . In

20:01

the phase where you are now , you're

20:04

running a profitable business , I understand

20:06

, right . So , but in in the next phases

20:08

, what is what is your ? What is your aim

20:10

? Do you need to be profitable ? Do you need to grow fast

20:13

? What ? What can we expect from ? And

20:15

repeat now .

20:16

We definitely want to grow . That's why I chose

20:19

growth . We yes

20:21

, we are just sorry we are profitable

20:23

. Yeah . But I'd

20:25

say not so much by choice , it's just

20:27

, it's difficult raising money

20:29

for these kind of ventures Because

20:32

it's building a brand and a lot of a

20:36

lot of investors are I Don't

20:40

know what's the right word there they're

20:42

not so happy to invest .

20:43

Yeah , they're hesitant to exactly

20:45

.

20:46

Yeah , so what we , what

20:48

we really want to do , is , I Feel

20:51

that that the puzzle is there . You know , we

20:53

have , we have a lot of musicians

20:56

using our product . Reviews

20:58

are really good , we are selling

21:00

and we are showing that we can make a profit

21:02

also on this business model , which is

21:04

radically different , of course . So

21:07

, so the baseline is there , but

21:09

now we just want to and and

21:11

we are growing , by the way , but we are growing

21:13

organically . Yeah no , 30%

21:15

per year , and we

21:18

just want to grow 300% per year , yeah

21:20

, okay .

21:22

So then you're looking for investors . Maybe before we go to those

21:24

investors , you also did crowdfunding , I think

21:26

twice , yeah , and one was a success

21:28

, one was less of a success . Maybe

21:30

can you dissect what . What was that

21:32

process like and what did you learn from it ?

21:36

There are a lot of learning , so we did this . I

21:39

must say it's already seven years ago or so

21:41

, but I think the lessons are still

21:43

more or less valid . The

21:46

first lesson is it's a campaign

21:48

that you really need to Prepare

21:51

mm . So our initial

21:54

thought was oh , across something that's cool because

21:56

you just make a few videos and

21:58

you upload it in a week and then money starts flowing

22:00

in . You know , yeah . Optimist

22:02

approach yeah exactly yeah , which luckily we

22:05

didn't do so we were warned before that that's

22:07

not how it works . Actually

22:09

. You , you need to prepare this a lot . You need to

22:11

have 50%

22:14

, but usually even 100%

22:17

of your goal already . Achieve

22:19

upfront and making sure that these people

22:21

are pledging the first day . Yeah . Like

22:24

I said , maybe these rules are not

22:27

entirely up to date anymore , but

22:29

that's what it used to be , and

22:31

then it's just campaigning , campaigning , campaigning . It's . Hard

22:35

work and it's . It's

22:37

sort of a ball that you need to get rolling

22:40

, and if it starts rolling , then

22:43

indeed you get this multiplier effect , you know

22:45

then yeah so if the in

22:47

in the first crowdfunding

22:49

we reached

22:52

, I'm not sure . I think

22:54

we reached our goal the first day , or

22:56

something like that , and then pretty

22:59

, pretty soon we were picked up by one

23:01

of the bigger media's . I don't know , maybe

23:03

it was NRC or something like that . Yeah and

23:06

once they pick you up , the others start writing about

23:08

you too .

23:08

and so then , snowball . Yeah , exactly

23:11

, you get a snowball , and that went really well yeah

23:14

and this is exactly what we miscalculated

23:16

the second time .

23:17

I thought , okay , we , we now know how

23:19

this works . Yeah , but it wasn't

23:22

new anymore , so nobody would

23:24

write about it . Yeah because they said

23:26

well , we wrote about you last year and

23:30

this time will pass . Yeah . Oh wow , yeah

23:32

, and if you can't get the first one , it's . It's

23:34

just stalls .

23:36

Yeah , yeah , oh , that's hard . Yeah

23:38

, and what did you kill ? The second one or did you finish

23:40

it ? No , we did finish it and and

23:43

and .

23:44

We we raised . I

23:46

think it was okay ish , because we had

23:49

a community right . So , that

23:51

helped , of course . The community was bigger and we could

23:53

thrive a bit on that community . But we

23:55

never got that wow effect

23:58

and it was just . I know

24:00

it was really . We

24:03

had a call list of about 150

24:07

journalists which

24:09

we split , so 75 each . It

24:12

was just calling every day and only hearing

24:14

no , no , no , no Wow

24:16

yeah , we already talked about you .

24:18

Sorry , come back . Exactly Okay

24:20

well , there's a good lesson in there , I think be prepared

24:22

. I think the fact that you have

24:24

your

24:27

pledges up front , so that

24:29

meter is already in the green when you start , that

24:31

helps . And also realize that the press

24:33

is looking for new stuff , so don't

24:35

expect them to write a second time . I think there's great learnings

24:37

in there . Maybe

24:40

we've been talking relatively

24:43

about the highlights and the nice points of building

24:45

a business . It's also hard work and lonely sometimes

24:47

. Yeah , what's

24:49

been the hardest part on your entrepreneurial

24:52

journey ?

24:55

I think , in general , the hardest part is that when

24:58

you start , you think this is

25:00

a great idea , and probably everybody will

25:02

think this is a great idea and you

25:04

think well , if we

25:06

managed to reach a

25:08

million people with Facebook , which cost

25:10

you a few thousand euros , then

25:12

what are the chances that at

25:15

least a thousand people will buy it ? It's more

25:17

than a thousand stuff like that and

25:19

the reality having a consumer brand is

25:21

so much harsher , it's really

25:23

difficult to sell

25:25

something to someone . In

25:29

general , I think B2B

25:31

, that's probably also the case . It's just really

25:33

difficult to get that first

25:35

sale and to get stuff moving

25:37

and second of all

25:39

, it's not a straight lineup . So usually

25:42

the line goes up and then

25:44

you're the man , then it stalls

25:46

and then suddenly you find yourself in

25:49

a position where you wore a

25:51

few years ago or maybe even lower

25:53

, and this is constantly

25:56

fluctuating , which

25:59

can Well . You

26:02

need to adjust to it , I tell you so

26:06

. I think

26:08

in the first years this definitely killed

26:10

morale sometimes , but

26:13

then after a while you also start getting used to this

26:15

and you know that this is the way it goes and

26:19

actually you

26:23

start to enjoy it , basically Because when

26:26

you see stuff going down . it's

26:28

putting the knife on your throat and

26:32

you get this survival

26:35

instinct .

26:35

It forces you to be innovative

26:37

and come up with new ideas .

26:40

So it's also something that you learn to embrace

26:43

in a while . But I think that's difficult

26:45

, and one

26:47

of the most difficult periods was

26:49

indeed this second crowdfunding , when

26:51

we had a cocktail

26:53

of so up to then

26:55

, things were going pretty well . We

26:59

were actually on pace . So within a year

27:01

we went from just an idea to having

27:03

a crowdfunding but also

27:05

a product that was producible

27:08

and having all these contracts

27:11

. So we were ready to start producing

27:13

this headphone , and

27:16

then we grew from

27:18

500 to 1,000 clients also

27:20

within a few months

27:22

. Things were going really well and then it started

27:25

stalling and we started . We were lacking behind

27:27

in the market and we needed to

27:30

make the transition to wireless and that's why we

27:32

did the second crowdfunding . But

27:35

by then we had

27:37

basically stalled on growth

27:39

and it was getting really difficult

27:41

to also do this crowdfunding

27:43

because we weren't new anymore

27:46

. And

27:49

then it was , and also

27:52

it was very difficult to raise money . I

27:54

think we already tried something

27:56

, but no one wanted to invest , which

27:59

was fine because

28:01

we had no production deal or whatsoever . We did all

28:03

these stuff just via Alibaba and

28:05

via email . So

28:08

I can see why a

28:10

smart investor would not take the risk

28:12

. So

28:16

I think that was the first crisis

28:18

that we had where it was really difficult

28:20

, and we had a third

28:22

co-founder on board who

28:25

also wasn't used to

28:27

this kind of beating , so

28:32

that even just killed

28:34

the entire vibe basically , and

28:37

that the co-founder is no longer with you , right . Yes .

28:39

The two of you now . So

28:42

, okay , what did you learn from that process

28:45

? And one of the questions people always

28:47

have what happened with the equity ? How did

28:49

you fix that ?

28:52

So what I learned from this process is to

28:54

always

28:56

go back to the main

28:58

drawing board , so

29:03

things are not going the way you expect

29:05

them to be . But is

29:07

this really a problem ? Are

29:09

you invalidating your business ? Right now , and

29:13

this is what I concluded I

29:15

am invalidating a second crowdfunding

29:18

, so my

29:20

marketing campaign isn't working . We are not reaching

29:23

a lot of people , but we are not

29:25

per se Validating

29:27

that nobody wants to have this headphone right

29:30

just we aren't reaching people and this is not

29:32

the channel to do to do it . So

29:34

, we need to find another channel to

29:36

start reaching people again and then if

29:39

nobody wants to have a hat fun , we are invalidating

29:41

the business model . But at

29:43

this point it was just , it

29:46

was just frustrating that that it

29:48

wasn't working . Yeah , but there was no reason

29:50

to kill the business because , in fact , we

29:52

had clients . We knew that our current

29:54

clients wanted to upsell to a new model

29:56

, so and

29:59

and we were already seeing in this

30:01

mechanism that we were able to

30:03

make a profit on these people as

30:05

well .

30:05

So there was all lights were on green , exactly

30:08

, yeah only we .

30:10

We just fully committed to a plan that

30:13

didn't work , to

30:16

a marketing campaign that that failed . So

30:19

I think this is this

30:21

. This is a lesson that we

30:23

want . Things

30:25

don't go your way . This is . This is always

30:28

what we do . I sit together with Tom and I just

30:30

start analyzing

30:32

the core basics . You know what's

30:35

what's the matter ? Yeah , aren't

30:38

we reaching a lot enough people ? So

30:40

is our marketing failing ? Yeah

30:43

, is our conversion failing ? So are there

30:45

a lot of people but they don't want to buy

30:47

for some reason ? Why is that ? Is

30:50

it ? Is it something else ? You know , is it

30:54

what's going on in the rest of the world ? What

30:57

are other entrepreneurs experiencing who

30:59

are also selling ? We had

31:01

this last summer where where a sales

31:03

just took a nosedive and

31:05

we couldn't figure it out , and until we started

31:07

talking to our retailers and also other

31:09

entrepreneurs and everyone said we

31:12

are , our sales are in decline

31:14

.

31:16

So it's the market .

31:17

Yeah so then you need to adjust to that , but

31:19

then , it then .

31:22

So then we went in sort of a hibernation mode

31:24

for the summer . Instead of just

31:26

spending more and more and more on getting these

31:29

sales up .

31:29

Okay , learning from others . I think that's a great

31:32

way to look at it . Maybe because we didn't answer this

31:34

question , so the third co-founder left . Yeah

31:36

, was that all in . Was it

31:38

? Was it messy or did you know

31:40

?

31:41

in the end it wasn't messy it

31:45

, it went actually very smoothly . So

31:47

she decided to leave herself . Okay

31:49

, also because of her

31:51

boyfriend accepted

31:54

the job in the US . So so things

31:56

kind of got together and

31:58

and she gave back these

32:00

years . Okay , okay . And we , we

32:03

paid something for it , but it's okay

32:05

with a loan and it was all very

32:07

nice .

32:08

Okay , perfect . Well , that's a great , that's a great ending

32:10

. We will go to a very quick break

32:12

and then we'll be back .

32:15

You're listening to the podcast of Uproaderdam

32:17

. We help start up skill and grow their

32:19

business by offering access to talent , access

32:21

to international markets and access to capital

32:24

. Curious how we can make

32:26

the network work for you ? Go to Uproaderdamcom

32:28

. This podcast was made possible

32:31

by the city of Rotterdam .

32:34

Welcome back . We're talking to Doris about

32:36

his business and how it's growing , developing

32:38

, going forward , and this is the thing

32:40

. When we have a break , we also

32:42

have a little chat , and there was one thing you said that triggered

32:44

me . That was about going to sustainability

32:47

events . What would you like to explain

32:49

what you just said during the break ?

32:52

So one of the key

32:54

lessons that we learned in

32:56

starting a sustainable business

32:58

, or maybe even a

33:02

business based on ideals it

33:05

doesn't necessarily have to be sustainability

33:07

, but what we learned is that I

33:10

saw a lot of entrepreneurs who were fully

33:12

focused on this sustainability

33:15

part and making their products

33:17

greener and investing

33:20

all their time in making . If

33:22

it was circular , for instance , the product is 100%

33:24

circular and then when all their budgets

33:27

were spent , then they would

33:29

go to the market and say , look , this product

33:31

is perfect . And just to find out that nobody

33:33

wanted to buy their product

33:35

and there wasn't any money anymore to do anything

33:37

else . So I see this a

33:39

lot , this over emphasis on sustainability

33:42

and this

33:44

completely neglect

33:47

of just all commercial

33:49

aspects like making perfect

33:52

and finding a customer , and

33:55

this is , after a while , also why

33:57

we stopped going to the sustainability events

33:59

because it's just , it's endlessly

34:02

talking about materials and new

34:05

ways of recycling and stuff

34:07

, but what's

34:09

interesting is , who are you selling

34:11

this to ? And I just want to see businesses

34:14

the business opportunity , businesses

34:16

that thrive because otherwise this

34:19

is also from ideology

34:21

. If

34:23

you are only proving that

34:26

you can make a green product that nobody

34:28

wants , you're actually killing the

34:30

sustainability

34:32

movement as a whole . We

34:36

want to show that , yes

34:38

, it is possible to have free repairs

34:40

forever on electronics and

34:43

to make products that

34:45

last a lot longer

34:47

than the average consumer spend , and

34:49

that it's actually possible to

34:51

sell these at the same price If

34:54

you so need to compete directly with them and to make

34:56

a profit on it .

34:57

So that's real market validation . I think there's

34:59

a sound advice in here , for if you are an

35:02

entrepreneur that wants to make a positive impact in society

35:04

, surround yourself with people that

35:06

are building , let's

35:08

say , regular , fast growing companies , because

35:10

you're going to learn a lot from them I think we hear the same

35:12

, obviously with engineering

35:15

companies that create something that nobody wants . But

35:17

I think , particularly in this space , surround

35:19

yourself with entrepreneurs that are growing . Learn from it . Learn

35:21

how the market works Basically . Also , use old

35:23

economy principles to grow your

35:25

new economy business . We

35:29

have listeners questions . Oh

35:32

, sorry , one thing we have to confess . So

35:34

those of you who have looked at our podcast

35:36

recordings see that we're not using repeat

35:39

audio headphones , and

35:41

there is a reason for this . Obviously , I wanted

35:43

to use them always on this podcast but

35:45

, as you might know , we travel with this studio

35:47

in a very small pocket , so we have bought

35:49

foldable ones . But I promise you

35:51

, now we have them here . I'm going to test if they

35:53

fit in our case and then I'm going

35:55

to buy three of them , but

35:58

I really like using them here today , just

36:00

for the record . Listeners questions . Yeah

36:04

, this is my favorite part . We've

36:06

collected some listeners questions , so that always brings

36:08

in a new perspective . The first one is Baudewijn

36:11

from Sombake , from

36:13

Jack Savier . He first

36:15

says I'm really impressed with how you've built

36:17

a brand and I even believe you've done it once

36:20

or twice before with really cool campaigns . It

36:22

must have been quite exciting at times to

36:24

make these investments . What were

36:26

your most thrilling moments in

36:28

this process ?

36:31

That's a cool question . I

36:37

think one of the most thrilling moments was the

36:40

very first campaigns that

36:42

we started doing on social media

36:44

and just seeing the response , because

36:46

that's

36:49

the first test . It's

36:51

not only seeing if you can sell , but

36:54

you suddenly are reaching

36:56

a lot of people , and especially back in the days when

36:58

online marketing was really cheap . You

37:00

start reaching a lot of people that

37:03

don't know you , but also

37:05

don't know your friends . You know they're

37:07

just third party and

37:11

also there's a lot of engagement

37:14

you know , so we

37:16

got a lot of shit also in the comments , right

37:18

, but that's fun to see .

37:21

Feedback .

37:22

Yeah , feedback and seeing why people

37:24

hate this .

37:24

There's a lot of hate , obviously on social media .

37:28

I really enjoyed reading all these things

37:30

and also

37:32

trying to see if there was anything that

37:35

might be bigger than just one guy who's

37:37

angry at his laptop

37:39

to

37:41

come up with solutions . And

37:45

I think the second thing that comes to mind is

37:47

our campaign with Willem

37:49

from the Opposites , which

37:51

we launched last year , which was

37:54

our first . I'm

37:56

not sure if you would call it a professional

37:58

campaign , but it was a lot

38:01

more professional than what we are used to do

38:03

. We hired a

38:05

very good photographer and

38:08

we made this script

38:11

and it was really cool . Nice , yeah

38:13

, professional campaigns .

38:14

So the first part is seeing people out there , you

38:17

know , wearing your stuff without even knowing

38:19

them directly , listening to the comments

38:21

and then , obviously , doing a professional campaign . Boudvin

38:23

, thanks for asking this question . Your next

38:25

question is from a gentleman you know

38:27

really well because he is your co-founder , Tom

38:29

Landers . Actually he said

38:31

in two questions , but I use this one because

38:34

I think it's interesting . He asked what has been

38:36

our biggest fuck up , the

38:38

most expensive lesson we learned . It's

38:41

nice , he makes it our biggest fuck up not your biggest

38:43

fuck up .

38:45

Most expensive ? Yeah

38:49

, that's definitely not

38:53

sure if I'm going to mention

38:56

them , but there's this

38:58

party in Delft that plans

39:01

CEOs , sort

39:04

of interim CEOs , in your firm . At

39:09

some point we weren't

39:11

able to raise money , we weren't growing

39:13

, we were still stuck in our

39:16

business model and

39:19

we felt that we tried everything

39:21

. So then these guys

39:23

approached us to get sort

39:26

of these hired guns in your

39:28

company and

39:33

we figured , well , I think

39:36

we were just basically insecure after

39:38

trying so much , after a while you start doubting

39:41

yourself as a co-founder and you think , well

39:43

, maybe let's have someone else

39:45

have a shot , someone

39:47

with big experience . So

39:49

we got these two guys in and

39:54

we learned

39:56

from them . Definitely , but it was so

39:58

expensive and in the end we

40:02

sunk all our money into this project

40:04

and we should never have done that . I

40:07

think we should have been far more critical

40:11

.

40:12

Okay okay , that's

40:14

sound advice and people that want to know this party can probably

40:16

read that you directly . But the general

40:19

advice is , if you hire external

40:21

senior people in , it has to

40:23

work in the end . So

40:26

how would you do that differently than next

40:28

time Because you might want to hire a senior

40:30

in your team ? So what would you do differently for a next

40:32

situation ?

40:34

I think that it's

40:36

easy to if

40:39

you're not performing the way you

40:41

want to perform , or at least it's easy

40:43

to start doubting yourself

40:45

, and I think it's also very

40:47

healthy to doubt yourself at some point

40:50

, but then again , never forget that you

40:52

know by far and most about

40:54

your business . I've seen it times

40:56

and times again when people with

40:59

a solid track record got in

41:01

and did some , took

41:04

over some of our strategy or some of our

41:07

online marketing and you think , okay , well , maybe

41:09

they can and

41:12

they are very confident that they will know

41:14

to boost your sales . Usually

41:17

they don't , because they don't know your clients . They

41:19

don't understand . They think they understand your

41:21

market , but usually they don't and they don't

41:23

understand the games . They have never spoken

41:25

to potential customers maybe three , you

41:27

know , but it's usually friends and

41:31

you know so much more about your business

41:33

than whoever , so

41:36

that's also . The upside

41:38

of this is that it regained our confidence

41:41

. We had these

41:43

big shots and we saw that

41:45

they couldn't produce any growth

41:47

for us and that we

41:50

knew a lot better what we had to do than

41:52

we thought we did .

41:54

Okay , great question

41:56

there , tom , and

41:58

I think if you want to know more , reach out to the doors and they'll

42:01

probably tell you who this company is . Final

42:03

question from Hans Klaver . Hans is from Obsession

42:05

. Which

42:08

other product based company would you

42:10

like to inspire with the way you

42:12

have built your product ? That's

42:17

?

42:17

cool .

42:21

And maybe this company is listening , who knows ?

42:27

Yeah , I still think it

42:29

would be really cool to see this in laptops

42:32

. I know you have what's

42:34

it called frame or so there is a

42:36

laptop company doing this .

42:38

Okay , modern laptop Like

42:41

in the old days right .

42:43

Yeah , that's funny . It's actually going

42:45

back to how things work , but

42:48

then again I would say , our business

42:50

model is radically different . So , also

42:52

offering free repairs forever , a

42:55

lifetime warranty . That's

42:57

something that has never been done before in electronics

42:59

, as far as I know .

43:00

So what would be which

43:02

company , if they apply your

43:04

examples , would

43:07

you be really proud of ? They would do

43:09

that .

43:12

I think if Apple would do this , for instance the biggest

43:14

, would be really cool . If you're listening

43:16

Apple , go do it .

43:18

All right , cool , great question down

43:20

here from Hans . Great

43:22

answer . So soon we'll see all the principles

43:25

of repeat audio in

43:27

Apple and then we're all happy people . Doris

43:30

, thank you for sharing your story with us here today . Thanks

43:32

for having me . I think it gave us great insights in how you run

43:34

the business , what you've gone through ups and

43:36

downs . We'll put some links that we

43:38

talked about in the show notes , so go check them out

43:40

there , and we always close off with a song . Well

43:42

, for a music lover like you , it

43:45

must be difficult to choose a song , but you've chosen one . Would

43:47

you like to explain which song and why I've

43:49

chosen ?

43:50

the rhythm of love from yes , and

43:53

I've been a fan of yes , I

43:55

think my well , not my entire

43:57

life . No , from when I

43:59

was starting to truly

44:01

listen to music , which was about when I was

44:04

in my teen years , you know . And

44:06

so after a while

44:08

, I got my first record

44:11

player and this is the very

44:13

first final that I bought , and

44:16

I bought it also because the final

44:19

you should look it up it's a big generator

44:21

and it's just , it's such

44:23

a cool album cover . Cool . So

44:27

it was mostly for the music , but also a bit for the

44:29

album cover .

44:30

I just really wanted to have this one on myself , Cool . All

44:33

right , we're going to listen to that one . Thank you for listening . Like

44:36

this episode ? Please like , subscribe , share

44:38

it with friends , and then we keep making this

44:40

content until next time .

44:42

Keep it up the

45:40

situation

45:43

sometimes falls apart . Then

45:47

it miss ecstasy

45:49

. Your charms are frozen

45:51

, no

45:55

emotion falling

45:59

through your eyes the

46:07

moment you get more in danger .

46:08

Time just goes , moving shorter , dead

46:19

feeling overwinding me , to the rhythm of love to

46:32

the rhythm of love .

46:33

To the rhythm of love . Should

46:38

I escort you to

46:40

your secret ?

46:42

needs climbing

46:44

up your ladder , I

46:47

need more anyway

46:52

will do , anyway will

46:55

do when they cast your

46:57

dark control . So hurry

46:59

as you crawl around

47:01

the room

47:03

. Can I see

47:06

you

47:12

? Nighttime

47:14

fever burning down your high , take me over , lose me through

47:22

the rain to the rhythm of love

47:24

, oh

47:30

, to the rhythm of love . To the rhythm of love

47:32

. To

47:39

the rhythm of love . Morning

47:41

day to the rhythm of love

47:43

, midnight

47:53

fever , morning day dream , midnight fever music

47:56

. This

48:12

should keep you from your point

48:15

of vision Needed

48:19

to go in this situation . I

48:23

am so used to the rhythm of

48:26

Morning

48:43

daydream In

48:47

the evening room . Morning

48:51

daydream , midnight

48:55

, in the rhythm of love , the

49:01

rhythm of

49:03

love , the

49:08

rhythm

49:10

of love , the rhythm of love

49:23

.