0:01

Today we dive into the story of Bibi

0:03

Jorssen , founder and CEO of

0:05

UMOP , the Mobility as a Service Platform

0:07

, on its way to change urban mobility

0:10

in Europe . In our conversation

0:12

, we'll explore the opportunities and

0:14

business model in mass , beating

0:16

the odds as a young female founder , and

0:19

we're going to find out if fundraising can

0:21

actually be fun . This is Start

0:23

to Scale , the podcast , where we highlight stories of

0:25

remarkable founders from South Holland and delve

0:27

into their scale-up journeys . My name is Lars

0:29

Kramer and I look forward to this

0:32

episode the first one of the new season episode

0:34

54 , and we dive into

0:36

the story of Bibi , a dedicated entrepreneur

0:38

passionate about merging technology

0:40

with sustainability . She has a master

0:42

degree in strategy and marketing

0:45

. She excelled in mobility before

0:47

, from cutting carbon footprint at General

0:49

Motors to boosting fleet growth at Greenwells

0:51

. Until in 2021 , bibi

0:54

co-founded UMOP together with Raymond Powels

0:56

, who you might know from Go

0:58

Sharing as a co-founder . They

1:01

secured 8 million in funding

1:03

within two years and today UMOP

1:05

stands as the first mass operator in the

1:07

Netherlands to integrate all three EMOPED

1:10

operators so those are Czech Go Sharing

1:12

and Felix , you know them into one platform

1:14

. Welcome , bibi , it's great to have you on the show

1:16

.

1:17

Great . Thank you for the nice introduction

1:19

and a very warm welcome

1:21

.

1:22

Perfect , I'm going to be doing

1:25

this in CIC Rotterdam , which is really close

1:27

from your office . Let me start with

1:29

one question . With all these options in mobility

1:31

these days , what is your favorite

1:33

mode of transport in

1:36

general ?

1:37

That's a good one , I think . In general

1:39

, I have a favorite mode

1:41

of transportation , which is walking , which we

1:43

can do now , now we have our offices

1:45

in Rotterdam . But

1:47

besides that , I think , as a Dutchie , the bike

1:50

is my favorite one . I

1:52

grow up with it , I use it every

1:54

day to university , to school , to

1:57

friends , to family , together

1:59

with family . I think biking is , in

2:01

the Netherlands , one of them , the most common , but

2:03

also my favorite one .

2:05

There you go . You look very

2:07

fit and healthy , so the biking and walking is paying off

2:09

. I must say we've only met recently

2:12

, but in our conversations you've come across

2:14

already as a very , I think , one of the most eager

2:16

and positive entrepreneurs

2:18

we've come across . You moved

2:20

your office close to here . Where's the signal

2:23

right ? When did you move recently ? I ?

2:24

think January 8th .

2:26

So a month ago we got the keys and

2:28

I'm still doing the final

2:30

points .

2:31

Right , we're getting there .

2:33

Yeah now , a really great place also to grow your team . We're

2:36

going to dive into your story , but first let's start with a

2:38

few statements that you can answer with true

2:40

or false , all right . To

2:44

be successful in mass industry

2:46

, experience is vital .

2:51

Good question or a good statement ? I think

2:53

true , yes

2:56

.

2:57

Being a young female entrepreneur works

2:59

to my advantage . Difficult

3:04

one , I think

3:06

no , I hated the fundraising process

3:09

.

3:09

No false .

3:11

Being a CEO can be quite lonely sometimes

3:14

. Yes , all

3:16

right , we're going to get to those true or false statements

3:18

somewhere along the conversation . Maybe let's

3:20

start with your why You've

3:22

worked in mobility before , but can you perhaps

3:24

paint the picture ? What

3:27

is the market opportunity

3:29

for shared mobility and why

3:31

are you so passionate about it ?

3:33

Yeah , well , I think . If I look

3:35

back at my adventure , it started more

3:37

than 10 years ago when I had my

3:39

first internship at General Motors

3:42

. They also had Opel there , which is

3:44

now under another company , but I had a great time

3:46

there . Together with my manager , we were responsible

3:49

for bringing the Opel Occasions

3:51

program into the Netherlands .

3:52

Right Secondhand cars .

3:53

Yes , that was already 10 years ago

3:55

. I remember when we introduced the ID

3:58

and the whole program , nobody

4:00

was very enthusiastic about it because the focus

4:02

has always been on new

4:05

cars , more cars and

4:07

more expensive cars . So

4:10

we really made a change there . I

4:12

really liked that because it was a different way of thinking

4:14

. It also brought me

4:16

the opportunity to share that

4:18

different way of thinking , hear

4:20

the opinions of how everybody was thinking

4:22

about it and do something with that . So

4:25

I really liked that . After

4:28

all my studies , I started working at GreenWheels , the

4:31

biggest car-sharing company in the Netherlands Amazing

4:34

time . I've been working there

4:36

for two years and I was responsible for

4:38

more than 100 municipalities , very

4:41

different from Amsterdam to a very small

4:43

one in the north , for example but

4:46

also for the growth of their fleet

4:48

. So the job had two sides

4:50

On the one hand , putting all the cars on the streets

4:52

, so if you see a red car here

4:54

in Rotterdam , the location has

4:56

been chosen by me .

4:57

Right , it's funny , it's GreenWheels , but the red car

5:00

is right . Yes , we heard that a lot

5:02

.

5:02

Yeah , I mean the Netherlands

5:04

people , that's okay , yes , but

5:06

I think the Green part is about the green mobility

5:09

.

5:09

Yes .

5:10

And in the past they had a green logo on the cars as

5:12

well , but that was

5:14

actually a pretty strategic role as

5:16

well because , many people . They see those cars

5:18

, but there's a whole model behind those locations

5:21

. How do we put them there ? Why

5:23

do we put them exact on that corner of the street

5:25

? Has a lot

5:27

to do with infrastructure , for example

5:29

. Where do people live ? Where do our customers

5:32

live ? How easy is it to access

5:34

that road ?

5:35

It's kind of an optimization challenge

5:37

that you have there , Also safety , for example because

5:39

people also need those cars by night .

5:41

So how do you access a car

5:44

at night , as ?

5:45

well , there .

5:47

So , yeah , that was great and I think when I got

5:49

there that was at Corona time lockdown

5:51

, very interesting time . But

5:54

what I currently realized is that Corona

5:56

could be very beneficial for shared

5:58

mobility if you had a right approach

6:01

. So we did . Saw that many

6:03

people during lockdown started realizing

6:05

like hey , we have one , two or three

6:07

cars , why ? Like

6:09

why , and

6:12

that was a moment I realized okay

6:14

, we can change consumer behavior

6:16

, we can let people think differently

6:18

and we grow from 1,800

6:21

cars to 2,500

6:23

in all in two years .

6:25

Okay , so more shared mobility on the roads , because

6:27

people are using it and asking for it , yeah .

6:31

So in just two years I worked closely

6:33

together with the government , with municipalities

6:35

and with our own customers , and

6:37

you saw that everybody was so excited . The customers

6:39

wanted more and more cars . They started using

6:41

it more . Municipalities have

6:43

that big challenge in how

6:46

are we going to redefine urban mobility ? Congestion

6:49

is extremely high these days . It's

6:52

even getting worse now . Now everybody

6:54

is getting back on the streets . I

6:56

think we all saw the news that Tuesdays and

6:58

Thursdays are terrible on the roads , so

7:01

I think we have

7:04

a big challenge there , but I

7:06

always see a challenge as potential . So I also

7:08

see it as major potential and

7:10

that's what got me very interested , because if

7:13

you look at the number of options you have

7:15

these days , but only 0.1%

7:18

of all travel cases

7:20

each day by person is made by shared mobility

7:22

0.1% is currently by

7:25

shared mobility . Oh wow .

7:26

So that says something about the huge

7:29

opportunity in your business to grow .

7:30

That yes , exactly , and I think

7:33

that's also the foundation

7:35

of where I wanted to grow and I saw that potential

7:37

. But I also did realize that

7:39

if you want to redefine urban mobility

7:41

, you cannot only do it with shared

7:44

cars and

7:46

you need a broader perspective on that and

7:50

that's when you jumped in .

7:51

And do you have any idea about the size ? That's interesting

7:53

because it's now 0.1%

7:56

using shared mobility . I tried to look up some

7:58

reports , but you probably know the data better . So what

8:00

is the market opportunity we're looking at for

8:02

specifically what you're tackling ?

8:04

I think , from a market perspective , I

8:07

always really like to look at number of rides , but

8:09

also the revenue that will be involved , and

8:11

they are now expecting a one trillion revenue

8:15

in 2030 .

8:17

One trillion , yeah , and that's in Europe or

8:19

in .

8:19

Over all the world . So it's over the world , wow

8:23

, and it's growing yeah .

8:26

So the numbers I saw it's 30% a compound annual growth

8:28

rate .

8:28

I read in one of the reports and I think when I first presented

8:30

the plan a year ago to new investors

8:32

, we had 400 billion . So it already

8:35

increased to one trillion in one

8:37

year . So you can update your pitch deck , yes .

8:39

Okay , actually

8:42

, before we start recording , isn't it ? It's in preparation . Yesterday

8:44

I checked my own phone and I found

8:46

I have 13 different mobility apps on my phone

8:48

. I have check Felix Bakmi

8:50

. There's also on this podcast Bert

8:53

Bolt Go sharing Lyme , Tier Yellowbrick

8:55

, get Jump NS and , of course , uber . What

8:58

a mess . So on one point , you're

9:00

solving that problem right . So trying to get those

9:02

apps in one , how does that work ? How does it

9:04

work ?

9:05

Well , I do think , in general , people have now what

9:08

you are mentioning 10 to 20

9:10

different mobile apps on their phone .

9:11

So you're saying I'm average . Yeah , thank

9:13

you . Yeah , it's your normal there .

9:15

So don't worry , don't worry , I

9:17

also had them .

9:20

Okay , okay .

9:21

We test . Of course we test a lot , but what

9:23

we are really trying to do is make it more easy

9:25

for people to make sustainable choices . So

9:28

for us , it's not really about which modality you

9:30

use but , to make the access more easy

9:32

for you , okay , and

9:35

we did see that many people have those apps

9:37

but , to actually use them was kind of a

9:39

problem , because you have 20

9:41

different accounts , 20 different payment

9:43

methods . Every operator has its own

9:45

onboarding system . For

9:48

one , you need a driver's license , for a gap , you

9:50

don't need a driver's license , and

9:53

that really hindered people in using those

9:55

services . So what we did is we

9:58

integrated all those apps into one which

10:01

is pretty complex Because , as

10:03

you can imagine , we are integrating

10:06

20 apps into one , 20

10:08

systems , 20 different systems . But

10:12

I think in the end we do it because we

10:14

fully focus

10:17

on density and reliability , because to make

10:19

shared mobility the new standards , we need a dense

10:21

network and people need to trust the services

10:23

. So for the customer , it doesn't

10:26

really matter if a moped is green

10:28

, white , purple , orange it

10:30

can be all colors these days . What we need

10:33

and what we want is quick access . So

10:35

we are at point A and we want

10:37

to go to B . What are my options

10:39

? What's the quickest , what's the most sustainable

10:41

and how can I directly book it without

10:44

making an account , without doing a new payment

10:46

? So if you're all integrated in one platform

10:48

, one app , you have a one-time registration

10:50

two to three minutes we

10:53

make sure we do that very well . So

10:55

to onboard people quickly with a safe

10:57

system , and then you're good to go , not

11:00

only here , but in the future also

11:02

and the future will be very soon also

11:04

in Belgium , paris , every

11:07

country .

11:07

Right , there's some of those big cities . I

11:09

can understand it's a complex challenge and

11:12

I read that I think last week you announced that

11:14

you were the first one to have all the big three E-mopads

11:17

companies in there . I can imagine

11:19

it's difficult to get

11:21

those ducks in a row . So how do you manage those multiple

11:23

operators to trust you

11:26

and to basically hand

11:28

over part of their data and the infrastructure

11:30

? How does that work ?

11:31

Yeah , well , that's a good point , and

11:33

that's , of course , one of the most interesting

11:35

topics , I think , in how do we together

11:38

work on that ecosystem and

11:40

building the app ? I think

11:43

what I learned very well is we all have the

11:45

same goal there . We do as a mouse

11:47

operator , the operators have customer

11:50

heads , but also municipality in the government . We

11:52

want to make cities more sustainable , we

11:54

want to fight congestion , and we only

11:56

can do that if we work together . So

11:59

I think in the past few years

12:01

, many operators did

12:03

enter cities . They did also leave

12:05

cities , for example , and

12:08

in the end , we were all focusing on their

12:11

fleet growth . But , however , an operator

12:13

has a maximum because of the permit system

12:15

on their number of vehicles that

12:17

they are allowed to put on the street . Ah right

12:19

.

12:19

So that's because of competition , I suppose

12:21

, or space , or what's the constraints there ?

12:23

I think mostly space , because they really want to

12:25

have some form of control on how they operate

12:28

on the street and to make sure it's safe to make sure

12:30

those partners can

12:32

be trusted as well . So

12:35

that's an important one , and why

12:37

I'm mentioning that is because if

12:39

we want to make shared mobility a great alternative

12:42

, we need to have access to those vehicles within three

12:44

minutes . Yeah , really close by , but if one

12:46

operator can only have

12:48

300 vehicles on the street , for example , we're

12:50

never going to make it For example , in

12:53

Amsterdam one operator would need 10,000

12:55

vehicles in one area

12:58

to have that density .

12:59

Oh , wow .

13:00

So they're not going to make it on their own .

13:02

No . So that's what we realized and

13:04

that's why we are trying to help them there , getting

13:07

more rights on those vehicles , and that's the

13:09

common goal that we have and that's how we work together . I

13:12

think our industry knowledge

13:14

is very helpful . So Raymond

13:17

is also a very experienced mobility

13:19

expert . He worked in mobility for

13:21

more than 10 years from .

13:22

Both sides .

13:24

So operation , selling

13:26

the vehicles , etc .

13:28

Right ? So that's your answer to it . Helps to have industry

13:30

knowledge in this space ?

13:31

Yes , I did as well , because we

13:34

perfectly know how the operation works from

13:36

their side . We know their challenges , we

13:39

know where they can grow , and I think that's

13:41

how we gain their trust as well To really

13:44

show like , hey , we know your challenges and we

13:46

want to help you there . We want to grow together

13:48

, we need easy access to those vehicles

13:50

and we need more customers to know about

13:52

these vehicles . I mentioned , 0.1

13:55

percent is very low . So

13:59

that's how we help them and that really helps

14:02

to have that knowledge , to know how to work together , to

14:04

know what's important for them . And

14:06

also , I think we all aim

14:08

for a profitable

14:10

business and to become profitable

14:12

you need to have a strong operation , more

14:15

rights , and we can really help them in

14:17

getting more rights so they can have more

14:19

focus on the operation .

14:21

Yes , so it's directly linking to their business , but

14:23

then still so you build the trust and they understand

14:25

you , and then you need to make things work right . It's

14:27

quite a technical , also integration

14:29

implementation . So how did you manage that process

14:32

?

14:33

I think , first and foremost

14:35

, most important , there is the team . We

14:38

really , besides Raymond , build a very

14:40

strong founding team , not only

14:42

for mobility experts and mobility industry but

14:45

also , for example , our operations director

14:47

is from Krabank .

14:49

Okay , also a challenger in .

14:51

Yes , so he really has the expertise

14:53

in how to manage the whole operation

14:56

fraud systems , payment systems

14:58

etc . And it really helps

15:00

, of course , if you can really show that you know

15:02

what you are doing there . You have the

15:04

knowledge in the intern , you

15:07

have the knowledge in-house . That really helps there , so

15:11

that's good . For example , our CTO is coming

15:13

from La Paya , very well-known

15:15

platform . They had also millions

15:17

of funding . So we really focused

15:19

on having a team that knows how to scale , that

15:22

knows the challenges but also really knows

15:24

how to work with those challenges . And

15:26

if you present that together , that

15:29

helps to work .

15:31

And then I think the question on

15:33

many people's mind is and how does the business model then work

15:35

? Because obviously these rights , they

15:37

want to keep their own margins , and so how do you

15:39

make that work ?

15:40

Yeah , of course , business model , I think

15:42

also with the whole funding part , is of course

15:44

a very unknown question .

15:46

Yeah , we're going to get to the funding as well .

15:48

Yeah , that's a good one . I think business model has

15:50

different perspectives . I

15:52

think a very base case is just

15:54

having your margins or on

15:58

the rights that have been made . So

16:00

for each right that a customer of U-Mob makes

16:02

, we have a small percentage of margin

16:05

To start

16:07

well , as a new company in

16:09

the industry , margins can be very low . So

16:12

we really had to be creative and think

16:14

of new business models there as well . What

16:17

we did see is we

16:19

focused from day one on scalability

16:21

of the platform , so we didn't

16:23

only want to operate in Holland , but in

16:26

Europe in general . And one good

16:28

thing there is if you are focusing on Europe

16:30

and rights all over Europe , you

16:32

have more skill and you have more mass

16:34

. And especially B2C is focused

16:36

on mass getting all the customers in and

16:39

that allowed us to buy like wallets

16:41

in Europe , for example . So we

16:43

make bigger deals with the operators because

16:45

we have the skill because we have the customers .

16:47

What does it mean buying a wallet ? What does it mean ?

16:49

Well , for example , you buy a number of rights

16:51

, but if you pay them upfront

16:54

, it can be possible to have higher margins

16:56

Because you give them some kind of security

16:58

and you will

17:00

have those rights . So we really need

17:02

to be confident of our platform , that we can make

17:05

those rights . But it allows us

17:07

to have better agreements there . That

17:10

also helps us to scale and

17:12

that is very beneficial . There I

17:15

personally strongly believe in having

17:17

the subscription models in the future . So

17:20

I think because we only do full

17:23

integrations . Every customer

17:25

is a U-Mob customer . All the rights

17:27

go via our platform and payments as well

17:29

. That allows us to have

17:31

that data in a

17:33

very secure and safe way . But

17:36

we can really help our customers in

17:39

moving smarter and better . For

17:41

example , a single operator only has data

17:43

on how their customer moves on a

17:46

bike or scooter . We

17:48

can see how they travel with cars , how

17:50

they travel with bikes , trains , etc

17:52

. And that really allows

17:55

us to personalize your journey . So we can

17:57

say hey , lars , you live in Rotterdam . We

17:59

did see that you are pretty active . You can

18:01

now try all services for 20 euros

18:03

a month , or , if you really

18:05

want to do it big in the future , for 200 euros

18:08

a month , but then you can use everything . Caps

18:10

public transport cars etc . And

18:14

I also strongly believe . If

18:16

you look , for example , at the bigger platforms , they

18:20

really have great partnerships with

18:22

other big companies . So you have also the advertising

18:24

model there .

18:25

So that's the additional model coming in potentially .

18:28

But the baseline where we started is the

18:31

ride per revenue .

18:32

And from . There we will grow .

18:34

We need to trust from our customers . Cool

18:37

yeah and I like that . So buying that

18:39

I think that's an interesting learning also for

18:41

other people Starting

18:44

up projects like this is you prepaying

18:46

some of the rides ? That gives you at

18:48

least the trust and also the ability

18:51

to actually do well from

18:53

the start .

18:54

You have to think big there . I

18:57

truly believe that was one of our biggest

18:59

achievements there Think big , not

19:01

small . Not only one of them , not only Amsterdam , europe

19:04

and my dream eventually will

19:06

be the US as well , Of course . World domination

19:08

. First Europe and then

19:10

the rest of the world .

19:12

So that answered the question of both

19:15

the business model also how you're growing , the

19:17

problems that you're solving for your customers , and

19:19

also the future business models . Let's

19:22

start on fundraising a little bit because , like

19:25

you say , it needs a lot of investment

19:27

upfront , I think , to make this work . It's

19:29

a platform , it's B2C , so that's

19:31

different than , I think , some of our B2B a

19:35

typical B2B revenue driven

19:37

scale-ups out there . Maybe

19:40

can you talk us through the process , because today

19:42

you raised , I think , just

19:44

over 8 million 2 million back in 2021

19:47

, another 6 million in October 2023

19:50

from prominent investors . What has been

19:52

your strategy in front-facing ? How

19:54

have you approached it ?

19:56

Well , indeed , we started the process

19:58

in 2021 . That's

20:00

where we raised the first 2 million

20:02

. I truly believe

20:04

in meeting the right people at

20:07

the right time .

20:08

Of course , yeah , but that sounds so easy .

20:09

It sounds indeed .

20:10

How do you do that ?

20:12

Well , I think if you look back when I started my first

20:14

internships 10 years ago , for

20:16

example , the first thing my manager

20:18

told me that day was like hey , build a

20:20

LinkedIn profile , you're going to need it in the future

20:23

. And I was like well , I'm

20:25

16 , 17 . Well , why do I need

20:27

a LinkedIn profile ? But

20:29

as of today , if she ever hears this , I'm still

20:31

very grateful that she yeah , she gave me that

20:34

tip .

20:34

Yeah , do you remember her name ? We could do a shout out .

20:36

Yes , it's Sophie Janssen . Sophie Janssen

20:38

, if you're listening .

20:39

Great tip and also , I think

20:41

, to a lot of students that are listening to this podcast take

20:43

this advice , because we do quite a few

20:45

on-campus recruitment sessions and

20:47

this is one of the things that I always it

20:51

puzzles me , because I think everybody should have a LinkedIn account

20:53

and I think you're the living proof of that . Yeah

20:55

, it really is .

20:56

And besides that , the living proof is to

20:58

. It's very cliche , but your network

21:00

is your network . That's what I always learned , and

21:03

that is really the case and you really

21:05

need to invest in your network

21:07

and many people from my personal experience

21:09

don't take that time because they prefer doing other

21:11

things . I always learn to

21:14

work hard , also during my studies

21:16

which is pretty hard , but it gives you

21:18

so many things back , and that's why I'm also

21:20

here where I am today

21:22

.

21:24

And .

21:24

I always learned . I think another

21:27

valuable thing for me was

21:29

not only the LinkedIn profile , but also in every

21:31

room where you ever enter , always

21:34

introduce yourself , always be humbled

21:36

there , because people

21:38

will remember you for being nice

21:40

for being proactive , and

21:43

they come back to you as well later , and , of course

21:45

, that takes time , so it will not have a result

21:47

in five minutes , but that's what

21:49

I really learned and if

21:51

you truly believe in what you are doing , share

21:53

it everywhere on

21:56

your socials , in your private network

21:58

, and I always learned that people

22:00

that you talk to , they know people and they know

22:02

people and they know other people , and if you believe

22:05

in your product , they automatically will share

22:07

it as well .

22:08

Yeah , the network of the network , yes , and

22:10

then that also because we came here because

22:12

of the question about investors , so that also brought you to

22:14

the right investors for that first round .

22:16

Yeah , so if I had the first

22:18

investor , we got in touch

22:21

with the other investors as well .

22:23

How does that work Because you have some , rather than some , prominent

22:26

entrepreneurs , right ? Yes , so

22:28

how does that work ? Because people always ask how do I get

22:30

in touch with these people ? And then how does that ?

22:32

Yeah , I think . Just ask

22:34

as well . Go to events , use

22:37

your LinkedIn to reach

22:39

out to people . Call people , email

22:41

people . Make sure

22:44

you have visibility with your work . What ?

22:46

you are doing .

22:47

Me and Raymond always go to many events

22:49

to meet people to share the enthusiasm , but

22:52

also to learn from people . In

22:54

my free time , I always went to free events . For

22:56

example , I read many books , many

22:59

podcasts , and that's giving you new ways

23:01

of thinking . Yeah , and then

23:03

also , I learned many things , for

23:05

example , from the founder of Nike . I

23:07

read that book . Oh , it's called ShoeDoc , if everybody

23:10

oh cool .

23:10

I haven't read it . Shoedoc Nike story . Shoedoc

23:12

is very cool . Oh , Put it in show notes

23:14

.

23:16

It perfectly shows startup life , because when he

23:18

started Nike , many people said

23:20

no , because nobody believed in the product . And

23:23

then a few did , and then it started growing

23:25

and we were lucky to find people that

23:27

believe in it as well . I think especially because

23:29

we know very well what we are doing

23:31

. The founding team is very strong

23:33

and we know how to scale it , and

23:36

I think the power of this platform

23:39

is the potential of the market

23:41

, but also the scalability

23:43

of it . Right .

23:45

Yeah , and then , with these first investors , you got your

23:48

first two million and then later on you needed to follow

23:50

on rounds to expand further and to

23:52

basically build the platform . So are those the

23:55

same investors that then invested further , or how

23:57

did you approach that ?

23:57

Yeah , one of the first one is

24:00

. So that was , for us , of course

24:02

, very positive because he still

24:04

believed in the product . I

24:06

think , especially in tech , it

24:09

and what we are doing you really need large

24:11

investments upfront before you

24:14

can make it work . So especially

24:16

having a funding round pre-revenue was

24:18

, in the beginning , very hard because , you don't have

24:20

a business model to prove and

24:23

you need to prove yourself as a team

24:25

, and Raymond always , and

24:27

Rieschen always says right the first place . You bet on

24:29

a team , yes , so you

24:31

sell the dream , you sell the team and I

24:33

think people do not invest in

24:35

your app they invest in the

24:37

team . So and that's what

24:39

I kept

24:42

in mind from the start those

24:44

people we are hiring in those early

24:46

stages are the people that are going to make it or

24:48

going to break it . And

24:51

for investors . The team is also very important

24:53

and how you report and once

24:55

they are in , of course , your structure is also

24:58

changing . You need to keep them satisfied

25:00

, to report properly , and you have a very

25:02

big responsibility , also as a CEO

25:04

, to perform well there and to make

25:06

sure the company is heading in the right direction .

25:08

Yeah , I keep them . Is there anything

25:10

you would do now , in hindsight , anything you would

25:12

do differently in raising capital either

25:15

in the first or second round .

25:18

I think in the stages where we went through

25:20

, I wouldn't do directly

25:22

anything different . I

25:25

think what I learned from the next

25:27

round is also the importance of having

25:30

investors in that can really bring you value

25:32

and knowledge of building

25:35

a scalable platform . So

25:37

of course , we do have many

25:40

parties that are interested in helping us

25:42

grow , but I think we need

25:44

to be very well , very

25:46

proactive in finding the right partner to help

25:49

us also to build a scalable platform . That's

25:51

what I maybe would do different , but again

25:54

, I think if I look back at the current investors

25:56

, they're all very , very

25:59

successful entrepreneurs . They really helped

26:01

us in looking from their perspective

26:03

to the business , giving us insights , helping

26:06

us , and that really creates value .

26:09

Yeah , getting the right people on board . I mean that's a

26:11

cliche , but getting the right people on board

26:13

also means getting the right investors on board . That can bring value

26:16

to the table other than

26:18

money ? Yeah

26:20

, and then obviously there's going to probably be a next round

26:22

again , right ? So then you're going to . Are you always

26:24

raising , or how does that work ?

26:26

No , I think in the beginning it feels

26:28

like always raising , but we

26:31

did build the platform that well and also from

26:33

the scalability perspective that it should be

26:35

operating or operable

26:37

itself within three to five

26:39

years . But I think for the first

26:41

two years you will still need the funding round .

26:46

And so in the statements you said

26:48

you

26:50

actually didn't hate fundraising .

26:51

So do you ?

26:51

actually love it . Is it like one of the things you

26:53

like to do ?

26:54

Well , I love it .

26:55

It's a bit of a stressing but .

26:57

I liked it . Why ? Because when

26:59

doing a funding round , you

27:01

have to be that sharp . You have to

27:03

know everything about the business . You have

27:05

to know every aspect of it Finance

27:08

, marketing , legal , commercial

27:11

and that's where I really learned the

27:13

most in the past two years and

27:17

investors look different

27:19

to your business plan than the team

27:21

does for example so they have different

27:23

questions which you learn a

27:25

lot about . That's what I really liked , because

27:27

everything you do , you constantly

27:29

are thinking , ok , hey , is

27:32

this how we can satisfy investors as

27:34

well ? Yeah .

27:36

You take that in and then it comes back .

27:38

Yeah , they have very good questions

27:41

as well , and you

27:43

learn from it , because many say no as well

27:45

. And then why do they say no , and how are

27:47

we going to tackle that with the next presentation

27:49

that we have for investors ?

27:50

Yeah , following up on the feedback

27:53

and then learning and going forward Before

27:55

we go to the break . Founders also

27:57

make fuckups . And I think you made one . Would

28:00

you like to share here on the record what's

28:03

been your biggest fuckup today ?

28:06

I think from an operational perspective

28:08

, my biggest fuckup was transferring

28:10

a lot of money to a wrong banking account

28:12

. That's when I also

28:15

realized how important it is to have

28:17

experts in your company as soon as possible

28:19

. That's , in general , I think , a big lesson

28:21

. Really higher experts in their fields

28:23

on short term , for example , I never

28:25

did anything with finance , so get

28:28

the people in pretty quick to help you

28:30

. That really helps for the long term that everything

28:32

is fine . Yeah

28:35

, I think the biggest fuckup

28:37

of the team was that we

28:39

did have a trial period with the application

28:41

before we went live . But

28:44

we didn't end that trial period when we

28:46

went live . So , the first three days , every

28:48

write that somebody did make was

28:50

for free .

28:51

And we didn't notice that in the first three days

28:53

.

28:54

Ouch , yeah , but you

28:56

learned , but we learned from it . But

28:58

the process in place to fix those things , and because we launched it

29:00

, the rights were not that much .

29:02

So now we have everything in process , it will never

29:04

happen again .

29:05

Okay , getting the right people . And

29:07

the first fuckup was the money . Did you find the money

29:10

back ?

29:10

Yes , you buy it to the wrong account , okay , so

29:12

investors can be happy money was back .

29:14

Yes , I fix it pretty quickly .

29:16

Yeah , I realized it quickly . The good

29:18

thing was it was a closed bank account from

29:20

a supplier .

29:23

So it was not like a total . That's where it went wrong

29:25

.

29:27

I didn't notice they had a new banking account

29:29

, but I had one bad night of sleep there

29:31

.

29:31

Yeah , for sure . It

29:33

was strange that all of a sudden had a big amount of money .

29:35

No no no , no Okay .

29:38

So relatively well . A fuckup in a confined

29:40

space , that's nice . Thank you for sharing that . We'll

29:43

go to a very quick break and then we'll be back .

29:44

Yes , you're listening

29:46

to the podcast of Uproaderdam . We

29:49

help start up skill and grow their business by offering

29:51

access to talent , access to international

29:53

markets and access to capital . Curious

29:56

how we can make the network work for you ? Go

29:58

to Uproaderdamcom . This

30:01

podcast was made possible by the city of Rotterdam

30:03

.

30:05

Welcome back . I think we've been discussing so

30:07

many things about your business . You know

30:09

you as an entrepreneur , the

30:12

team I think you mentioned the team a couple

30:14

of times and managing your fuckups as well . So that was really

30:16

honest there . Before

30:19

we go to the listeners questions , maybe

30:21

a more personal question . As a

30:23

as a as a CEO , it's

30:26

a busy role and time is not always on your side

30:28

. In the end , decisions stop with

30:30

you . So how do you stay

30:32

resilient ? What do you do to keep sane

30:34

?

30:35

Yeah , I find it

30:37

very important to work on my on

30:39

my mental health , but also for my body

30:41

, so I still managed to go to the gym

30:43

four or five times a week .

30:46

Oh , wow .

30:46

I truly believe . I believe if you want something

30:48

, you make time for it . That

30:51

really helps . I find it important

30:53

because I know this . When I do that

30:55

and I have lots of energy and

30:57

I feel energized , I'm also a better person

30:59

in private life , but especially also in

31:02

work .

31:02

Yeah .

31:04

And , as a CEO of the company , I need to be energized

31:06

because the team is looking at you and what

31:08

you are doing , how you are moving

31:10

, and that energy also links links

31:13

to them . So you bring that energy to the , to

31:15

the working environment as well . So that's

31:17

what I do and I always , if I don't have

31:19

time to go to the gym , I make sure I

31:21

eat very healthy . That

31:24

also gives me energy . And might sound

31:26

a bit cliche , but it's . That's the biggest

31:28

tip I also gave to to students last

31:30

time . They told me like , hey , you

31:32

have such a busy , a busy role , yeah , how

31:35

do you stay fit at all ? Because the days

31:37

can be long , yeah . So I walk to work . Now , yeah

31:39

, every day it's 30 minutes in

31:42

the morning , 30 minutes in the evening . That

31:44

helps in general .

31:45

Yeah .

31:45

Yeah , and it's

31:47

good to have some off time building

31:49

, building .

31:50

So first thing is building mental and physical

31:52

exercise into your day routine , eating healthy

31:54

.

31:56

They're also related there . I guess , and

31:59

I spend lots of time with my family in my free

32:01

time . Yeah , very good Family .

32:03

Yes , and we're not doing podcast recommendations

32:05

, but there's one podcast you just mentioned in the break that we

32:07

should all listen to . Yes , which one is that ?

32:09

It's the one from Jay Shetty . Yeah , I

32:11

really learned from it from mindfulness

32:14

perspective , but also it's

32:16

mentioning every topic that you can

32:19

imagine Business , love

32:21

, personal growth , development

32:23

and I think it's the second

32:26

worldwide podcast

32:29

on Spotify . Oh , really , yes , just after

32:31

the start to scale podcast by a person . Exactly , exactly

32:33

. That's the most important , of course .

32:35

Cool , so we're going to put that in the show notes for people

32:37

who want to listen to that Great tip . So

32:40

we're going to talk about tips or actually talk about questions . We'll

32:42

go to the listeners questions Now

32:44

. We always ask our listeners to send in the questions

32:46

, so check our LinkedIn channel

32:48

and send in questions for the next guest , if you will

32:50

, and we might answer them here . Talking

32:53

about students , the first one , the first question , is from

32:55

Thijs . Thijs is a student at Rotterdam

32:57

Business School , actually one of the places

32:59

where we did a Hack your Career workshop

33:02

last week , where they worked on scale up challenges . Yes

33:04

, 150 students . I was really impressed

33:07

. This question is what do you

33:09

find most challenging about entrepreneurship

33:11

and how much did your education

33:14

help you prepare for this ?

33:16

Yeah , well , I did spend

33:18

some time on my education . Raymond

33:21

is always telling me that I did

33:23

three studies in total

33:26

. Eight years of studying and you

33:28

really learn discipline there

33:30

. If you are managing to do two master

33:32

programs and a pre-master at the same time , you

33:34

know how to be disciplined and to

33:36

make your priorities . That really helped

33:38

me in becoming an entrepreneur , because

33:40

I think back then , if

33:42

I look back at it , I then already

33:45

knew that if I did something

33:47

extra , the results would be great . So

33:49

what I really learned at university , what

33:52

also helps me here is

33:54

if you take a few steps extra

33:56

, which can be very small , the

33:58

results can be very great . So I

34:00

graduated cum laude , for example , because I did

34:02

spend just like three or four more

34:05

hours on a project . Nobody was willing to

34:07

do so , but I did see . If you do

34:09

that , the results also will be great . I

34:13

think what's most challenging and that

34:15

also refers back to

34:17

your statement at the beginning it

34:19

can be very lonely , especially

34:22

when you start , because you have an ID . You

34:24

don't have a team yet . That will come , of course

34:26

, but I did spend many hours

34:28

on my own in a room building the business

34:31

plan , building the case , building the

34:33

application , building the logo , trademarks

34:35

, etc . So

34:37

, but in the end it's

34:40

all worth it , I think , because

34:42

those moments break or make your company

34:45

and if you continue on those moments

34:47

. Well , that resulted in where we are today

34:49

, so

34:53

that's a valuable lesson there .

34:56

Yeah , so I like what you said the discipline and

34:58

also I would not call it overachieving

35:00

, but making sure that you really make the best of what you

35:02

can do during your studies and will

35:04

also help you , I think probably also be noticed

35:06

right , because people see that you're achieving , that you're

35:09

leading the pack .

35:10

You don't need to spend extremely

35:12

many hours on something , but just show

35:14

people that you did something extra , that you are

35:16

always proactive , and that's what I'm also learning

35:19

the team or I hope to learn that

35:22

to the team is

35:24

that things are not pretty

35:26

fast good enough for me . They can always be

35:29

better . Yes , so

35:31

I have very high standards and

35:33

it can be hard to push that to other

35:35

people as well . Should not always

35:37

be doing that . Okay , maybe that's

35:39

a lesson to be learned from your marchers .

35:43

Thijs , thank you for asking this question and I hope this

35:45

inspires you , thijs , to also get better

35:47

grades . I think at what you're doing , but just

35:49

be your best self . I think that's the tip there

35:51

. Second question is

35:53

from Suden . Suden Arakeliyan

35:56

and he is the founder CEO of Bacmi . He

35:58

was actually one of the guests

36:01

a couple of episodes ago . Go check it

36:03

out . Great episode . He's basically

36:06

doing shared bugfeets , which

36:08

is cargo bikes in English . His question

36:10

is why do you think the push

36:12

for shared mobility is so important

36:14

right now , and what do policymakers

36:17

say when you speak with them ?

36:19

Yeah , well nice , I know Suden as

36:21

well . We work together . So

36:24

well , that's a nice question . I

36:27

think the push is very important because

36:30

we all have a major challenge

36:32

in congestion , CO2

36:34

reduction , getting

36:36

livable cities , for example . My

36:38

motto and the motto of the company was always

36:41

to give the streets back to our people and

36:43

not to cars .

36:44

Right , all this parking space is by sitting

36:46

cars .

36:47

I think we can use that space much better , and

36:51

in the past few years , especially

36:53

during Corona , we did see that we want

36:55

to be more outside , we want to have a nice environment

36:57

to live in , but it takes some

37:00

action . And I think the hardest thing to do

37:02

is to let people change their behavior

37:04

, and especially when it comes to cars , because

37:06

it's the standard to have two to three

37:08

cars . And

37:10

what I find very important there to push from

37:12

the government and municipality is because they can

37:15

really make an impact . They can change

37:17

customer behavior and I think together

37:19

with all the operators and mass operators , we

37:21

can give even an extra push

37:23

. So

37:26

when I talk to policymakers , they

37:28

start to realize more and more every year that

37:30

they need to do something and

37:32

what I always ask them that it's

37:35

very strange that in the city center of Rotterdam

37:37

, for example , you could have a parking spot for

37:40

two euros an hour . That's

37:44

not very demotivating people to bring their car

37:46

to the city . So that's where they

37:48

can make an impact . And then , of

37:50

course , for example , bakmi , but also we as a mass

37:52

operator , we should be

37:54

making sure that there is an alternative

37:56

for those people who will not use

37:59

their car . I always told , also

38:01

when I worked at Green Wheels , that , for example , car

38:03

sharing is a great alternative to

38:07

private cars . That's , I think , also our biggest

38:10

competitor , private cars . But

38:12

you also need an alternative for an alternative

38:14

, because if your alternative is Green Wheels

38:16

and your neighbor is taking that car

38:18

, then you have a problem .

38:19

Yeah , and that's the worry everybody has , or many people have

38:21

right . Oh , it's gone .

38:23

Yeah , so that's where platform comes in because

38:25

if you have all the options , you

38:27

always have the option near you and that's

38:29

where government can really push , and I

38:31

see that they are more and more working on

38:33

that . Ok , and also

38:35

for Bakmi , for example .

38:37

And then I'll ask you a question . Ok , well , talking about thanks

38:39

, soeren , for asking this question , that is , you're

38:41

in the same industry , so that's always nice

38:43

. But then the next question is actually

38:46

from somebody from the municipality Rory

38:48

Helsel , nice , I must

38:50

say she's also on our team . But

38:52

, she's also responsible partially for mobility

38:55

projects in the city and her

38:57

question is have you come across

38:59

many regulatory challenges

39:01

in building UMOP and , if so , what

39:03

is the most difficult regulatory

39:06

challenge you had to overcome ?

39:09

Yeah , I think in general

39:11

, a challenge with the government

39:13

and municipalities can be that the processes

39:16

are very long . So that's what . I quickly

39:18

realized when I worked at Green Wheels , for example

39:21

, could take more than

39:23

a year to put one car on the

39:25

street somewhere because

39:27

you need a permit , but many

39:29

municipalities back then didn't have

39:31

a working team that was giving those

39:33

permits or prioritizing permits

39:35

for car sharing . That

39:38

really changed . So also for Soeren

39:40

, to come back to his question , that really changed . They

39:42

have teams now for shared mobility . They

39:45

prioritize those permits and

39:48

I think the operation there is

39:50

very challenging . That can be done

39:53

better . Luckily

39:55

they are doing so . I

39:57

think from a mass perspective , mass is pretty

39:59

new . So , we don't have existing

40:02

regulatory or

40:05

challenges there . What I do think is

40:07

that we can work together with municipalities

40:10

. They can really help us in reaching

40:13

out to

40:15

consumers , for example . I

40:18

think they are a very trustworthy partner

40:20

. So the municipality is communicating

40:22

something . People really believe it

40:24

and they started using it . We did many

40:26

, many pilots in trying so , working

40:28

together with the municipality , but

40:30

it's very hard to them . It is

40:32

very hard for them to do so because they

40:35

are not a commercial party

40:37

in there . So there's always that

40:39

balance needed between commercial

40:42

parties and the government . And how can

40:44

we work together and we are trying to

40:46

figure out every day how we can do that better and better

40:48

and actually help them , because

40:51

I think we have a challenge on accessibility

40:53

to the vehicles , but also to

40:55

make it affordable for everyone in the

40:57

city , and that's where we can help them

40:59

, if they allow us to help them .

41:01

So could it be a scenario that all those big cities

41:04

are going to be tendering out this ? Is

41:07

that a potential ? Because then you would

41:09

be competing with other potential ones . Is

41:12

that kind of the end game for this play

41:14

?

41:16

No , I don't think so . I think the market

41:18

is big enough to operate

41:20

, to all operate together , and

41:22

I hope we can focus more on working

41:25

together , really doing pilots

41:27

, instead of making more rules , because

41:29

that really hinders us in our growth and

41:32

, in the end , for the end customer , that's

41:34

not very helpful .

41:36

That's a great piece of advice to anybody

41:38

in mobility in this city , but in many other cities as

41:41

well . Bernadetta

41:43

has sent in a question and Fanny Bernadetta

41:45

is new on our team . She's

41:48

running our socials , so , whatever you see , she's

41:50

probably been creating it . Her question is around gender

41:52

diversity or

41:55

gender bias . Actually , how do you tackle

41:57

gender bias situations as a female

42:00

entrepreneur ?

42:04

Well , let me think about that question . I'm

42:06

not sure how to interpret that

42:08

question .

42:10

So I think the first part is do you actually experience

42:12

gender bias situations as a female

42:14

founder ? Maybe that's the check

42:17

in questions .

42:20

Yes and no . I think I

42:23

think yes in a positive way , because

42:25

it can be negative . I think

42:27

what I really miss is having more female

42:29

entrepreneurs out there , so this is also

42:32

a call for all of them to

42:34

do so , because it's not

42:36

really that common that a female is leading

42:38

a company and , for example , the tech

42:40

team , but also operations . We have very much

42:42

men working at the office as well , but

42:45

I always really like that

42:47

that I'm able to manage all of

42:50

them and to lead the company into a

42:52

better direction each and every day , and

42:55

for me , it's all about respect there , so

42:57

I always make sure to know who I'm

43:00

dealing with , be respectful to each

43:02

other , and for me personally , it

43:04

doesn't matter who someone

43:06

is or what the gender of

43:08

someone is . For me , I'm a really

43:10

person , persons or I care

43:12

about character . I care about how

43:15

humble somebody is , how they treat

43:17

other people in the room , and

43:19

I also expect that from them

43:22

towards me . So , then , being a

43:24

female shouldn't be an issue , but

43:27

I think I do hear sometimes

43:29

that they find it very cool that a female is

43:32

founding a new business , and that's what I like , because

43:34

then you are inspiring people

43:36

and then you can

43:38

use being a female founder in a very positive way

43:40

. I speak to many students

43:42

at many events and for them it's very inspiring

43:45

to also see female in a CEO

43:48

position CEO

43:50

position and that's really motivating

43:53

them as well to perform

43:55

well .

43:57

So you use it to your advantage .

43:59

Yeah , and to inspire .

44:03

I think the Melchord sisters from

44:06

Equalture said

44:08

a similar thing , actually that they're using the fact that they're

44:10

female founders , For instance , even

44:12

to get on the stage . You can actually use

44:14

it to your advantage and you're inspiring

44:16

others . I think that's a super important part . Cool

44:19

. Thank you for the answer . We

44:21

have our final question and

44:23

it's interesting , that's from Raymond Powell . So who is your

44:25

co-founder ? Of course , I think he's also the

44:27

CCO , officially , right , so the

44:29

company . His question is what

44:32

have you learned from the people around you and

44:34

what do you hope people learn from you ?

44:36

Yeah , good question from

44:39

Raymond . I

44:42

think first , what I learned from other people is to always

44:44

stay positive and optimistic

44:47

, especially from Raymond . He

44:49

sees a positive case in any negative

44:51

case no matter how negative it is

44:53

. And that really

44:55

inspired me , also in being

44:58

the CEO of this company , to bring that

45:00

to our team . People

45:02

are really looking up to the founding team in

45:04

what they are doing , how they are moving , and

45:08

I know that enthusiasm should be there every

45:10

day . No matter how

45:12

many things go wrong on one day , we

45:14

always end up positive . So that's what I

45:16

really learned from

45:19

him , but also from all of the other team members , because

45:22

they all share that character . What

45:25

I really hope to learn to

45:27

them is that I find

45:29

transparency and clarity very important

45:32

. I think , as a leader

45:34

, you should be responsible for having transparency

45:36

and clarity in the company , to

45:39

don't give stress to people and

45:41

to always know what's going on , in which

45:43

strategic direction we are going

45:45

, for example . And what I really

45:48

hope to learn , or what

45:50

people learn from me , is always to keep calm

45:52

and keep your focus in any situation

45:54

. I think in startup environment

45:56

, with many entrepreneurs , many young people

45:59

, our topics vary from day to day

46:01

. They go from left to right . Do

46:03

we go to Europe ? Yes , no , that changes every day

46:05

. When do we do it ? And

46:07

I think in times , for

46:09

example , when you are in pre-revenue

46:12

stage and you want to make revenue , people

46:14

want to make revenue really quick , so how are we going

46:16

to get there ? And sometimes that's

46:18

losing your focus . So I always brought back

46:20

the team to the focus , like , hey , this

46:23

is who we are , this is what we're going to do

46:25

, and we need to be here together

46:27

in five years , so don't

46:29

get distracted by other things . This is the focus

46:31

and it can be that for one or two

46:33

weeks we are not getting

46:36

to that goal , but in the end , if I look back

46:38

, that focus really brought us where we

46:40

are now . So

46:43

to always stay calm and

46:45

to bring the team back to their focus

46:47

and make decisions there . And

46:50

one important thing I learned and I

46:52

hope to also inspire other people with there

46:55

if there's any resistance

46:57

within the company , go there at

46:59

first , because if there's resistance to

47:01

whatever topic it is , that's

47:04

where you need to be , that's where you need to listen and

47:06

that's where you need to say , to make decisions

47:08

.

47:10

Interesting combination keeping focus on the one side and

47:12

going to where what

47:15

do you ?

47:15

phrase it as the

47:17

resistance is where resistance is yeah nice

47:20

.

47:20

That's a great tip . I think we'll you know

47:22

what we'll implement that in our team

47:24

as well . I think that's also

47:26

the things that make a good CEO , Maybe

47:28

, so Thanks , Raymond , for

47:30

asking that question , feeding us that question

47:32

that brings us to the end . So

47:35

thank you for sharing your story and

47:37

giving us an insight in how you run this

47:39

company and how you're making it bigger

47:41

, and we are definitely going to see

47:44

each other much more as your business grows and

47:46

as we hopefully can help you with whatever you need . We'll

47:49

put all the links that we talked about in our show notes , but

47:52

, most importantly , after thanking you , we

47:55

always close off with a song that you select , so

47:57

would you like to explain which song you chose

47:59

and why ?

48:01

Yes , that's a good one I actually chose

48:03

you never walk alone

48:05

from Lee Towers For

48:08

several reasons . I didn't have

48:10

to think about the song actually that long , because

48:13

if you look to Roller Dam and

48:15

the character of Roller Dam , then Lee Towers is , of course

48:17

, a big icon there

48:19

. The thing I really like about

48:22

the song is it always unites people

48:24

wherever they play it . They

48:27

play it in football stadiums , they play it at parties

48:29

, and people are always getting together , hugging

48:31

each other , and that's what I really like . I'm

48:34

also a big fan of sport games , and

48:36

then especially the top

48:39

players in every league , so

48:42

that can be soccer , but it can also be baseball

48:45

. We follow the NFL at home , for

48:47

example , as well , and the song

48:49

always reminds me about the atmosphere

48:51

in those stadiums , the teamwork that

48:53

those players have , and

48:57

I always see that the teamwork

49:00

that , for example , the

49:02

biggest football clubs in the Netherlands

49:04

have . That's something you also want in your working

49:06

environment , because if that team is

49:08

so strong and they have the same goal

49:10

, they can do things that are magic

49:13

in my opinion . So

49:15

that's why I really like the song . I

49:17

deeply respect all those pro

49:19

, all those athletes , in

49:22

doing their job , and the song just gives me

49:25

happy feelings , and I think

49:27

in building a business you actually

49:29

never walk alone because people are

49:31

always willing to help you . So keep that in mind

49:33

and if you need help or

49:35

you need advice , then ask for

49:37

it .

49:39

Excellent , great explanation , great song

49:41

. Thank you out there for listening . If

49:43

you like this episode , please do us a favor

49:45

and , while you listen to the song , leave

49:47

a rating or a comment in Spotify or Apple , because

49:50

it really helps us to keep making this content

49:52

. Until next time , keep

49:54

it up .