0:05

Welcome to startuprad.io your podcast and youtube blog covering the german startup

0:13

scene with news interviews and live events.

0:13

Music.

0:19

Hello and welcome everybody this is joe from startuprad.io your startup podcast

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and youtube blog from Germany. Today, I bring you another interesting interview.

0:31

Imagine starting your career under the supervision of a Nobel laureate,

0:35

diving deep into groundbreaking research and then making the bold leap into

0:39

entrepreneurship, only to build a company that will become a global biotech powerhouse.

0:45

Today, we're talking to Professor Detlef Reisner, a scientist turned entrepreneur

0:49

who started his academic journey at Heinrich Heine University and Technical University Darmstadt,

0:56

spent time at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Studies, and then took an even

1:00

bigger leap, trying to turn cutting-edge science into a business.

1:05

But it wasn't easy. Imagine hurdles of launching a biotech startup in Germany

1:09

in the 1980s, before venture capital was even a thing there,

1:13

against all odds, co-founding Kia Gehen, which became the first ever German

1:18

company to list on Nasdaq in 1996.

1:21

And as if that wasn't enough, he later led the company as chair of the supervisory

1:26

board, bringing into DAX 40 Germany's elite stock index.

1:32

What does it take to bridge science and business, to push through failures and

1:36

to build a global biotech leader? That's what we'll find out today. Stay tuned.

1:42

Professor Riesner, welcome to StartupRaid.io.

1:46

Thank you. I'm happy to answer your questions.

1:52

Yes, and I do have a lot here for you.

1:55

At first, would you consider yourself to be an example other entrepreneurs could

2:06

follow in what you've learned? To a particular extent, yes.

2:15

If I speak to younger people, then I say the main point is that you have a good idea.

2:25

You have not to do the market to estimate the market situation.

2:33

If you can estimate the market situation then your idea is not innovative,

2:39

when your idea is innovative then there is no market you have to build a new

2:44

market that is an innovation that is the first point whether I have seen that

2:50

at that time I don't know I do not remember but that is from the retrospective what I would say,

2:58

and so today I would say yeah, it's important you have a good idea.

3:04

People will sometimes use it.

3:08

Mostly if you are working in academia, other academicians will use it.

3:14

And that is already okay. If other academicians will use it to the normal market, it goes later anyway.

3:23

Therefore, that's the point. And the second is, yeah, If you have an academic

3:30

position, you have to agree that it is a lot of additional work.

3:38

And as a professor alone, you cannot do that. That is clear.

3:44

So you have either to good students or to good co-operators or to very good

3:52

colleagues so that you can work in a team.

3:57

From the beginning on, we worked always in a team.

4:03

And I fulfilled also in future always my academic position,

4:09

but I was, so to speak, the link to the science, which I could always then bring to the company,

4:20

and, but the link to the science, where as the younger people had to do the

4:25

link to the market, to build on the link to the market, that was not my job.

4:30

And so, what you need is a lot of endurance.

4:36

And what I see and those things sometimes I saw that later,

4:42

you have to have the capability, the mental capability, particularly the capability

4:50

of your mindset, of your character,

4:53

that you can divide success.

4:56

Some people I met, they said, oh, the main point is that I have more than 50%, so I can say what to do.

5:04

Nonsense. Bullshit, I would say.

5:08

What to do is always the opinion of the people who give the money,

5:16

and whether you have over 50 or less than 50, doesn't matter anyway.

5:22

The people who give the money they have an extremely important

5:27

word for the company and we had

5:30

to see that too yeah so that's the point i think and then if you have in the

5:37

next seeding round you have to give up shares it's completely clear but i remember

5:45

the word of mosher alafi who was one of our investors.

5:50

Moshe Alaafi was a very successful Silicon Valley investor and he told us.

5:58

He said as boys, he normally called us boys, if you have 50% of a company which doesn't work well,

6:09

all you have are sleepless nights.

6:14

If you have 2% of a well-running company,

6:19

you are rich people that is the difference between 50 and two percent okay so

6:24

that is probably the first what i have to say i don't know it did answer your question,

6:31

to some extent at least yes and we may also add that is still today you are

6:38

pretty active and involved i i've seen you at the larger business angel talk

6:43

in november in minds we didn't get the opportunity to talk there,

6:47

but they've been kind enough to help me organize this interview here.

6:52

Big thank to the organization team there. Could you share the key experiences during your time at Princeton and University

7:01

of California, San Francisco that influenced the trajectory of your research?

7:10

Yes, in Princeton, I worked mainly on nucleic acids and nucleic acid protein interactions.

7:19

And that was important for the research when I was back.

7:23

But when I have to say in Princeton, I was a postdoc and I were interested in my academic career.

7:31

I wrote already a patent, but this patent never brought any money,

7:36

so it was too theoretical.

7:40

So the Princeton experience was a very good personal experience and scientific experience.

7:48

The impact to the company was probably not so big.

7:54

And the UCSF experience, that was at the time when I had to say,

8:00

oh, I set up a company, I was involved in setting up the company as a professor.

8:05

I have to start now new things, yeah.

8:08

The company is running, but as a professor, I have to start new things,

8:13

new scientific things, yeah. And that was the reason why I went to Stanley Prusiner for postdocs before I

8:20

worked on infectious nucleic acids.

8:23

And then I heard, I had a lot of contact with Stanley Prusiner,

8:27

he said, there are infectious proteins.

8:29

Oh, I said, how interesting. Let me go into that field now.

8:34

The nucleic acids are well taken by the company already.

8:40

So the company was already working when I had my sabbatical in San Francisco. I see.

8:49

Your work on virals and prions has been pioneering.

8:55

What initially drew you to study these infectious agents and what were some

9:01

of the challenges you faced in this research.

9:04

Yeah, this question comes to the point of the company, yeah.

9:11

Viroids were infectious nucleic acids.

9:15

And I heard from a German colleague there that those things exist.

9:20

A lot of people thought it doesn't exist at all, yeah.

9:24

A small nucleic acid cannot be worked like a complete virus.

9:28

But viroids, which is probably 1% in the size,

9:34

1% of a complete virus, and viruses were thought to be the smallest infectious entities,

9:45

but viroids, only a nucleic acid, 350 nucleotides, has the same phenomenology.

9:52

That means it's infectious and it's pathological.

9:57

And I said oh that is extremely interesting for a physical researcher like me

10:03

I have now a molecule in hand which I can handle and I can study it is simple enough,

10:11

to study with physical methods if the biological system is too big at that time

10:21

it was in the 70s you could not really study

10:24

with physical methods,

10:27

you could study with X-ray proteins.

10:32

But these steroids were a complete biological system. That was so interesting. And then we said, but…,

10:40

First, we had a few micrograms from the viroid and that is very cumbersome to work with that.

10:48

And we thought, okay, we have to purify. We have to develop methods to purify

10:55

the viroids for our research.

10:58

And then I had a very good student who was a chemist who said,

11:02

okay, I will do that in my PhD work that was made in Kolpan.

11:06

I developed a chromatographer. So, we discussed a lot how this chromatography

11:12

should be, and then, one or two years later.

11:18

He could present really a chromatographic column which purified virals,

11:28

and now we had probably suddenly milligrams of virals in our hands.

11:34

And I reported that on conferences and the people said, oh, how nice,

11:40

but who is interested in viroids?

11:42

This is such an esoteric effect.

11:45

We don't know whether it even exists. Yeah.

11:48

But for example, what people are interested, can you purify plasmids?

11:55

That would be interesting. And we put plasmids on the column and it came out pure.

12:01

Pure. and that was the reason why we started to work on plasmids.

12:06

And then really I think that was about the time when we started about the company,

12:12

what we could do with the company, purification of nucleic acid and diagnosis of nucleic acid.

12:18

For example, at that time, PCR was not developed, so one had all these hybridization

12:25

methods to find mutations and those things.

12:28

But then we heard back, yeah, if you have an infectious agent and plasmid is

12:34

in particular cases also an infectious agent, but only in a particular sense.

12:39

And you put one plasmid on a column and then the next plasmid,

12:43

the columns have a memory effect.

12:47

And therefore, we said, OK, the column is not the right instrument.

12:54

We have to use small kits, use it once and throw it away. And then you have

12:59

no cross-contamination. And that was really the main invention of Chiagen.

13:07

At that point, Diagen first and then Chiagen, that's not interesting right now.

13:12

When Chiagen could sell a kit for a plasmid and the user takes the kit.

13:20

He purifies his plasmid, and next day another one, or next hour another one,

13:27

and there never cause contamination because he uses everything in U-column.

13:31

And that was when Kyagen started to sell worldwide the kits.

13:40

And I was still involved in the company and we discussed a lot,

13:45

but at that time I was already

13:48

looking for the infectious protein which

13:52

is a new phenomenon yeah so

13:55

now you have a little bit the idea how i came to the purification to the kids

14:02

together with my co-operators i i never was alone the company colpania and carsten

14:09

hank and jürgen schumacher we were together four of us.

14:17

We had several ideas, but the idea of the plasmid kit, use it once and throw it away.

14:26

That is a good idea for microbiology.

14:29

And suddenly, and then I have to say, medical doctors could suddenly work in

14:35

molecular biology because they could purify their plasmids before you have to

14:41

use plasmids to do microbiology.

14:45

And before, purify the plasmid took nearly two days.

14:52

And the medical doctor has no time, he has patients.

14:55

And he does science in the evening with students.

14:59

And therefore, with plasmid purification, there was no time left for that.

15:04

And suddenly we gave him the tool at hand, so now you can work with plasmids. It fits your time scale.

15:11

And then I think to describe the success of Chiragin is Chiragin brought the

15:19

molecular biology to medicine. Before it was only in specialized laboratories, but then it could be done worldwide.

15:27

We'll definitely get into the

15:29

key again story but before that i have one more

15:32

question because you have been the share of biophysics

15:35

at heinrich heine university in düsseldorf from 1980 to 2007 that's 27 years

15:42

that's quite a long time and an achievement but how could you just basically

15:47

balance the the responsibilities you had from all the positions your research

15:53

key again and so on and so forth. Did you develop special methodologies? At first, it was an outcome of our university research.

16:03

So we did not research on the sideline. It was our main research.

16:12

Viroids and to purify viroids. So nothing to do next to it, or we didn't, other things.

16:19

And suddenly, and when this worked, Then we went out into the company,

16:25

and then I could say, okay, I have all my lectures, everything in my institute,

16:33

but this part is now taken over by the company.

16:37

We had a lot of discussions, but we had it well separated.

16:42

So the economic part was well separated from the university part.

16:47

And I kept this up to the day of my retirement.

16:54

In my head, of course, it was always combined.

16:58

But the money and what was spent and the co-workers and so on,

17:05

they were working either there or there. And if there was a combination, then it was declared and everything went fine, yeah.

17:13

And you have to say in Germany, when we started the company,

17:18

we had no Arbeitnehmer-Erfinder-Gesetz. Yes.

17:21

Yeah. And that was very good. I told my chancellor, you see,

17:27

I have to, I will set up a company next, is there any problem?

17:33

He said, a company, you can do that on Saturday, and professor,

17:37

you have from Monday to Friday. So I don't see any problem.

17:41

And as long as you don't want to have money from me, anything is fine.

17:46

But today, the universities would like to have a lot of money when you said

17:51

have a company that is an enormous hurdle for small startups, I have to say.

17:57

I'm working on that, that this situation has to improve.

18:04

That's the law you're referring to is basically a law that regulates if one

18:10

of your employees develops an invention during work, how do you process with it?

18:15

What's the legal process to assign all the benefits.

18:21

Before we get, and by the way,

18:23

what you've been talking about, like having certain times for your research,

18:29

for your institute, and certain times for your entrepreneurial work,

18:32

I think that is a technique called today time boxing.

18:36

You have certain times allocated to special duties, and you use them to the best of your abilities.

18:42

Before we dive into the KIAGEN story,

18:46

I'd love to hear from our audience if you could ask a biotech pioneer like Professor

18:55

Riesner one question. What would it be?

18:58

Drop your thoughts down here in the comments.

19:02

In 1984, you co-founded KIAGEN with the doctoral students.

19:07

What motivated you to the transitions from academia to entrepreneurship and

19:13

how did your academic background influence the company's direction?

19:17

I mean, we already know it is a application of your research,

19:23

but I do believe you applied a few more things from your academic background

19:28

into the company, right? Okay, I have to say that is a little bit in my personal mindset.

19:34

I never, I studied physics, atomic physics and biophysics, yeah?

19:40

And then later on in my PhD work, I went more to biophysics or to pure biophysics.

19:47

But I had always in mind, oh.

19:51

Academic career is only one possibility for me.

19:54

I can work with a company and anything else.

19:58

I would always like to work scientifically, not only to sell things.

20:04

This is only a good profession to sell things. But I think I have to work in science, in research.

20:11

But whether I will do that my life in academia or in a company, I was not fixed.

20:20

That means I worked already on a patent before KayaGen, this patent was not

20:28

very successful, that doesn't matter, but therefore I had always a look into that direction.

20:35

And then there were these three students coming with me from Darmstadt Institute of Technology.

20:43

We went together to Dusseldorf, and we discussed a lot, what could we do?

20:48

And these younger people, they were, of course, not fixed to academia.

20:52

I was at that time already a little bit more fixed to academia,

20:56

but we discussed what can we do else? And where is our research good for? And so these ideas were generated.

21:08

And there were no particular time boxes or so.

21:13

You cannot box your brain into different sections.

21:19

But you have to control that the obligations to the university have to be fulfilled, 100%.

21:29

And I never skipped a lecture for a discussion with the company, also not later, never.

21:37

The company had to take care of my time box, not the other way around,

21:42

which always worked pretty well, I have to say.

21:46

And okay, what was next?

21:50

Yeah, how I could separate that pretty well, yeah.

21:54

And I think this came from the beginning, I say, for the company,

22:00

I'm advisor, but I never went to the management.

22:03

And that was the main point. My three students, they established the management.

22:12

I was on the advisory board, advisory job, yeah. And therefore,

22:18

we had a clear separation. And I would tell all the younger people, do this separation as soon as you can do it.

22:31

Otherwise, you have only trouble.

22:35

And therefore, I never had trouble with the university because everything was fulfilled.

22:42

And the other point is, there were not only the three students.

22:48

As a university professor if you like to do research you never can do it alone

22:54

you can do it only with the best of the students,

22:58

and therefore I had to give very good lectures I feel maybe I'm a little bit

23:05

superstitious but I think I gave good lectures to attract good students and

23:11

then you can do good research at the university if you say I do research

23:16

and lectures are a little bit, take a lot, too much time,

23:20

wrong, completely wrong, yeah? The other way around. Good lectures bring you the best students and with them

23:26

you can do good research.

23:30

And this went through my whole 26 years on the University of Düsseldorf, yeah?

23:36

It started in Darmstadt, it started in Darmstadt, I have to say.

23:40

And for everybody who doesn't have an academic biotech background,

23:46

I'll link a lot of Wikipedia articles, prions, plasmid, virons, and so on and so forth.

23:53

Of course, TU Darmstadt as well as the Heinrich Heine University,

23:57

of course, so everybody can learn a little bit more there.

24:01

We already talked about Kiagen.

24:03

There was like a different name in the beginning. That's why you're talking

24:07

about Kiagen and Kiagen. But the entity, that was a spin-off, one of the first biotech spin-offs from a German university.

24:17

As you said, there was not the law that regulates what happens if one of your

24:23

employees invent something. But I'm sure you also encountered different hurdles.

24:30

Plus, there was a very interesting story you have in your book.

24:34

By the way, you wrote a book about your experiences. unfortunately it's already sold out but I do have,

24:41

one physical example here from you thank you very much for that for people who

24:46

are really interested in the book I have a lot of issues at home if they write to me I send them an issue.

24:56

Ok and my question would be what hurdles did you face there because I remember

25:02

from the book you came to Dusseldorf they said ok what are you going to bring

25:05

to us And then you said, OK, we do already have an idea for a company.

25:10

And I do remember that the Sparkasse, the thrift organization of Düsseldorf,

25:16

was quite helpful there. Can you talk about a few other hurdles and, of course, the story of Düsseldorf?

25:22

Because when I remember this correctly, there was a great investment for the local organization.

25:27

Yeah, they were not alone. First, we had another, the owner of another company who was interested in the technology.

25:36

Later on, we had a lot of problems with him.

25:39

And the Sparkasse, there was a particular opinion in the Sparkasse.

25:47

What can we do with the university together to improve the economy in Düsseldorf?

25:54

And there we had a discussion. And the discussion was in that way, it's okay, we have to talk,

26:04

but not much will come out.

26:07

And then suddenly I said to the president of the Sparkasse, yeah,

26:13

we have the plans for a company in the desk.

26:18

And he said, what do you need? We said, 10 million. And he said, right away, I work on that to get the money.

26:26

That we will get the money. So that was in a minute, this decision.

26:31

And that, okay, if we have that support, then we can start.

26:35

And then with the Sparkasse, when you have such an inventor,

26:40

investor, he did not give 10 millions.

26:43

Over the time, he gave 6 millions over the time.

26:47

But he got back 240 millions later, to tell you the relationship.

26:54

But then there was another venture capitalist,

27:00

TVN in Munich, they got involved and I think then the government,

27:10

the North Rhein-Westphalian government said, okay,

27:13

we can support that. Let's see what's coming out.

27:17

It's new that we support the start-up from the university. And then by recommendation

27:26

of Charles Weisman from Zürich, there was Moshe Alafi got interested.

27:31

In California, he had, for example, started Applied Biosystems,

27:37

a very successful company.

27:40

And we met with him and we told him what we are doing and so on.

27:45

And he took a sheet of paper and wrote down one million investment.

27:51

So this was really decisions on the point, I have to say. Yeah.

27:59

And he and Moshalafi, I have to say, he looked to the young people in the company,

28:07

not to me, to the young people. What do they do? Is there fire in these people?

28:14

And he had the right judgment and therefore he gave the money.

28:18

And so these hurdles were so then we had the money to start.

28:22

And then the problem was a laboratory.

28:26

I have to say in there is always an intermediate time where the laboratory is

28:33

still in the university, but as soon as possible out of the university.

28:38

Have your own laboratories, yeah. Then it's a clear cut.

28:42

And this took some time. And later on there was a company, Henkel in Düsseldorf, who had.

28:54

A level in a building with empty laboratories, which we could rebuild for our work, yeah.

29:02

And so we started there, and later on, of course, it was too small,

29:05

and we had to build our own, and so on, and so on, yeah.

29:09

But these were the hurdles a little bit. The money first, one has to have good

29:14

connections to get the money, yeah. And then the laboratory space So what was no hurdle, what was our starting capital,

29:27

so the idea and the people and the mood of the people, yeah.

29:31

That was our capital and the money and the laboratory space we had to acquire, to say that.

29:41

As we said, with KIA again, the kickoff, as you already mentioned,

29:46

was a two-part single-use plastic system for nucleate acid extraction.

29:52

That was a game changer, obviously. You already talked about the innovation process behind this product,

30:01

and you said normal doctors became part or could do biological research with that.

30:08

I also remember that you have been hired in terms of the woods in Germany,

30:16

Dyeing, Waldstäben, to also do some research there where you apply to your research.

30:23

Yeah, the Waldsterben, that was the funny thing, I have to say,

30:29

even people thought, oh, in two years there is no single tree in Germany.

30:33

If you listen to the press, yeah, then there was meaning in two years there

30:39

is no single tree in Germany. We never thought that it was so serious, but we developed tests and we used

30:46

again our methodological and our knowledge on RNA aid technology.

30:53

And then we developed those tests and we published it.

30:58

And of course, it was interesting even for investors, but this was not really part of the business.

31:06

It was besides the business.

31:09

It was good for our technology training, I have to say.

31:13

And for example, it was very good at that time, one could get good grants for Waldsterben.

31:25

And that was good for my laboratory, I could buy new instruments,

31:29

and these instruments were of course used for other experiments,

31:36

not only for Waldsterben. Yeah. And therefore, and you know, Waldsterben in Germany stopped at a particular date.

31:45

And on one day, Waldsterben stopped. Do you know that?

31:49

No no but but i vividly remember when i was a small kid i remembered coverage

31:54

everywhere in the press in the news bald stem the woods are dying in germany due to um um,

32:03

and then there probably came the catastrophe of the atomic mile in chernobyl

32:10

and on the day of the press moved to Chernobyl and Waldsterben was forgotten it was,

32:20

funny I say that was the end of the Waldsterben in Germany,

32:25

the catastrophe of Chernobyl but naja so we have not to discuss further Waldsterben

32:33

Waldsterben was an episode it was a scientific interesting episode when I later

32:39

met somebody from the minister who gave us money.

32:44

And I asked him what is the outcome of the

32:47

Waldsterben and he said there is a lot of outcome because

32:51

the Waldsterben gave the money and

32:54

now we have forest science before we

32:58

had in universities only forest economy and since the time of Waldsterben we

33:03

have a forest science in good universities so I did not look at that because

33:09

we did not believe then forest science But that was an outcome which one should not estimate too small,

33:17

that we have in Germany now a good forest science. Yeah.

33:21

Okay. So far to Waldstern.

33:26

Jumping forward a few years in 1996, you were the first company to be listed on Nasdaq.

33:33

As we've already discussed, you were co-founder, you were advisor.

33:37

Have you been at this time on the supervisory board of Kia Gin?

33:42

Yeah, but I was not the chairman of the supervisory board.

33:47

The chairman was at that time a very well-known banker, Carsten Peter Clausen.

33:57

And he was with the beginning. He helped us a lot with financial difficulty

34:04

situation, yeah, situations. And then we were happy.

34:08

He really guided the tour to the NASDAQ.

34:12

Together with Goldman Sachs.

34:23

Anyway I think the best underwriter you could get at that time.

34:28

And later on, when Professor Clausen reached his age of 72,

34:36

he had to leave the board and i

34:39

followed him as a chairman yeah i would

34:43

be interested you've been there the first company

34:46

before we get to that

34:49

how because i do understand there

34:53

are two people that helped you to get listed on nasdaq but i was i was wondering

34:59

what went through your mind when you met at the company and at the first time

35:03

somebody said oh guys uh you're here in germany but let's go over to new york

35:07

city and list your nasdaq what were your first thought about that,

35:11

now yeah we had a good people who were good consultants yeah the and our our investors,

35:21

they knew how to do those things and nasdaq they said the nasdaq is america

35:27

and there's the most money which they will buy shares and the share price can then increase.

35:34

In Germany, we had only the normal Börse, but we were too small to go to the

35:43

German Börse and the small Börse came later in Germany.

35:50

And therefore, we had to set over the company of KayaGen in holding,

35:59

in Namen Lose Vernotschap, that was a Dutch holding of the company,

36:06

and we went to the Nasdaq with the Namen Lose Vernotschap.

36:13

And they knew how to work with Nasdaq. In German, the German companies,

36:17

they could not go to Nasdaq at that time, yeah?

36:21

Whether there were fiscal improvements, that was not my business in the company, yeah?

36:29

But we knew with the Namenloser Vernotchapp and with it being public,

36:36

we could collect more money.

36:39

That is, yeah. And we could grow in Hilden,

36:44

near Düsseldorf, because we had no money, more money, and then we started the

36:50

whole diagnostic part of the company.

36:55

Before, we were really the purification company, and then we had the purification

37:00

technology and the nucleic ethic diagnostic part.

37:05

And that was only with the money of the IPO.

37:10

I see. And the Namlose Vermotrapp is basically the key again N.V.

37:17

Many people would have come by a Dutch company called N.V.

37:21

Also there that is just a legal form.

37:24

So basically you moved your entity to the Netherlands and there you could so

37:28

you could list on Nasdaq. Yeah, but entity, the whole thing, that means in later time,

37:37

we were 50 people in the Netherlands, but 1,500 in Düsseldorf, yeah.

37:43

That is the ratio about. I see.

37:48

Have you any story about being the first company to be listed on Nasdaq?

37:54

How were you perceived in Germany and in the US?

37:58

I could imagine in the US it was no news. But how did people react here in Germany about your listing?

38:05

Oh, this is hard to remember how they react.

38:09

You see, during the first years when we had the company, my colleagues were

38:14

always friendly, I have to say that. Sometimes they were friendly to me, but in the backyard of their brain,

38:22

they thought that it will not take long and he will come down again.

38:28

But they never said to me. They were only friendly to me. And then,

38:38

of course, there was really, I have to say, then probably there was admiration.

38:44

When we said we could develop the company, now we are on IPO and the company

38:51

is very close to several hundred million value.

38:57

Yeah, then there was a say, then a lot of people said, okay,

39:02

that is really a success. And some colleagues told me, you know, for molecular biology,

39:08

I know much more than you, Detlef Riesner, but you did it. And I was afraid to do it.

39:15

So there was this open admiration. They said, you did it. And therefore you were successful.

39:24

And then after IPO, the stock went up and then went down and went up and down. That is normal.

39:32

And then the biotechnology bubble was bursting in the beginning of 2000.

39:41

But the company, of course, the company went on and they earned money already.

39:48

These are two independent things. The revenues of the company and the value as a stock market.

39:55

Sometimes they are completely decoupled.

39:59

Thanks, Scott. They are decoupled. And Kia again went on and,

40:04

of course, recovered from the low stock price.

40:06

Hey, guys. This is Joe from startup.io. At the time when I'm reviewing my interview

40:11

with Professor Reisner, I have noticed that's almost 1 hour and 20 minutes since we try to keep our

40:19

content to a certain length. This is now the point where we'll cut this a little bit and go into episode

40:27

number two published tomorrow. That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io.

40:43

Remember, sharing is caring.

40:46

Music.