0:00

From CAFE and the Vox

0:02

Media Podcast Network, welcome to

0:04

stay tuned. I'm Preet Barara. Over

0:06

the last few weeks, President

0:08

Trump has revealed plans, if one

0:10

could call them that, for the

0:12

future of Gaza, which has been

0:15

decimated by the ongoing war between

0:17

Israel and Hamas. It's unclear whether

0:19

the ideas floated by Trump are

0:21

feasible. So what are the real

0:24

prospects for rebuilding Gaza? And what

0:26

would it take to achieve lasting

0:28

peace in the Middle East? To

0:30

explore these questions, I'm joined by

0:32

former ambassador and peace negotiator Dennis

0:35

Ross, who served in both the

0:37

Bush and Clinton administrations, Karim Sajidpur,

0:39

an expert on Iran and the

0:41

Arab world, and Ahmed Fouad Alcatib,

0:43

a Gaza American writer and analyst

0:45

who grew up in Gaza City

0:47

and moved to the U.S. as

0:49

a teenager. And now, by the

0:51

way, you can watch this episode

0:53

too. Just head to cafe.com/YouTube. All

0:55

of that is coming up. Stay

0:57

tuned. This

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saying you heard about indeed on

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this podcast indeed.com Is peace

2:00

still possible in the Middle

2:03

East? Former U.S. is all

2:05

you need. Is peace still

2:07

possible in the Middle

2:09

East? Former U.S. Ambassador

2:12

Dennis Ross, Iran expert

2:14

Karim Sajid Puhr, and

2:17

Gazan American writer and

2:19

analyst Ahmed Fawad Al

2:22

Qatib, join me to

2:24

discuss the current situation.

2:30

Karim Ahmed, Dennis, thanks for

2:32

joining the show. Good to be with

2:34

you. We have a very simple and

2:36

easy to digest and solve problem that

2:38

we're going to be talking about today.

2:40

I should note at the outset that

2:42

we are taping this, recording this, late

2:45

morning, on Monday, March 10th. Lots of

2:47

things are in flux. Lots of things

2:49

can happen between now and when people

2:52

listen, so I just wanted to time

2:54

stamp it. So can I start with

2:56

you, Dennis? Some weeks ago, not

2:58

even two months being... sworn in

3:00

as President of the United States

3:03

again. There was this breakthrough, ceasefire

3:05

between the parties in the

3:07

Middle East, Israel and the

3:10

Palestinians, and there was an agreement

3:12

for the exchange of hostages over

3:14

a period of time. What's the

3:17

status of that? How is that going

3:19

if you haven't been following it

3:21

as many people maybe have not

3:23

been following it hour to hour

3:26

day to day? So let me

3:28

explain it. I want to explain

3:30

it from two standpoint. One is

3:32

Donald Trump is someone who believes

3:34

in the use of leverage. One

3:37

element of leverage is not only

3:39

pressure sometimes, it can be inducement

3:41

sometimes, it can be in effect,

3:43

creating an attractiveness of what he's

3:46

doing. That's not what he does.

3:48

He doesn't base things on soft

3:50

power, he bases on the threat.

3:52

of certain things. And in advance

3:55

of his inauguration, he put out

3:57

there would be held to pay

4:00

if was released prior to the

4:02

time that he came into

4:04

office. The framework of an

4:06

agreement that had three phases,

4:08

which I'll explain in a

4:11

second, had been in place

4:13

literally since last May. The

4:15

essence of the approach was

4:17

to have a three-phased approach.

4:19

The first phase would

4:21

be six weeks. The

4:23

actual numbers of hostages

4:25

for Palestinian prisoners

4:28

was worked out largely then.

4:30

generally accepted that

4:32

proposal in early July.

4:34

Eventually, the very same

4:37

framework was adopted with

4:39

no real material difference.

4:41

So three phases, phase

4:44

one, I described phase

4:46

two, there was to be

4:48

a negotiation to complete the

4:51

ceasefire, make it a permanent

4:53

ceasefire, Israel would withdraw

4:55

from Gaza its entirety. and

4:58

all of the living hostages

5:00

would be released. Again, each

5:03

was 42 days. Phase three

5:05

would have the release of

5:07

the remaining bodies of hostages,

5:09

meaning the dead hostages,

5:11

and reconstruction of Gaza

5:13

would begin. This was

5:15

a three-phased approach. It

5:17

had not been closed.

5:19

What happened was Donald

5:22

Trump makes his declaration,

5:24

and on the Israeli

5:26

side... Steve Whitcough, the

5:28

designated negotiator for Trump,

5:30

goes and basically tells

5:33

Netanyahu it won't be

5:35

understood by President Trump if

5:37

you say no. And Egypt

5:39

and Qatar go to Hamas and

5:41

say, look, it's in your interest

5:44

to agree to this because once

5:46

the fighting stops, it'll be very

5:48

difficult to resume it. So

5:51

both sides reacted to the

5:53

anticipation of pressure coming. from

5:56

Trump. What's the status

5:58

now? Phase one has...

6:00

completed but the ceasefire is continuing.

6:02

Why is it that there is a

6:04

problem here? Israel hasn't been negotiating

6:07

on phase two because Netanyahu

6:09

understands that he will lose

6:11

his government if he does.

6:13

Not so much the negotiation

6:15

but it looks like he's

6:17

going to complete phase two

6:19

which involves complete withdrawal from

6:21

Gaza, permanent ceasefire, and the

6:23

release of the hostages. So

6:25

he hasn't been negotiating on

6:27

it because of fear that

6:29

it might cost him his

6:31

government. Hamas is insisting you

6:33

stick to that framework.

6:35

There is now a new

6:37

proposal that is coming from

6:39

Steve Whitcoff that is basically

6:41

saying, let's have a two-month

6:43

ceasefire that takes us through

6:46

Ramadan and through Passover. At

6:48

the beginning of this ceasefire.

6:50

10 hostages, 10 living hostages will

6:52

be released. There are 24 who

6:55

are believed to still be alive.

6:57

And by the end of the

6:59

60 days, there should be an

7:01

effort to negotiate a permanent ceasefire,

7:04

and if that's achieved, then the

7:06

remaining hostage will be released. So

7:08

it is a modification of the

7:11

three-phased approach. There are some

7:13

signs that there is some

7:15

progress being made, and the

7:17

irony is some of that

7:19

progress being made. seems to

7:21

be the result of the

7:24

Trump administration negotiating directly with

7:26

Hamas, which I will say breaks

7:28

a taboo. The idea that you would

7:30

negotiate with Hamas and give

7:32

them something that's highly valuable

7:34

to them, meaning normalization and

7:37

even a kind of legitimization,

7:39

without imposing a price first.

7:41

prevented every preceding administration from

7:43

every dealing with Hamas. There

7:45

were other, there were political

7:47

concerns and the like, but

7:49

fundamentally the idea was why

7:51

would you give Hamas a

7:53

victory of recognition by dealing

7:55

directly with them without getting

7:57

something from them in return?

7:59

This administration basically isn't constrained

8:02

by any of the traditional

8:04

norms. We think normally about

8:07

alliances alike, but here this

8:09

is a case of a

8:12

real adversary, a terrorist group,

8:14

that committed October 7th

8:16

and all the atrocities associated with

8:19

it, and they did not feel

8:21

there was a reason not to

8:23

be talking directly to them, and

8:26

they have begun to do that.

8:28

Let's pivot on that point.

8:30

Karim Ahmed. Is this a situation

8:32

in which doing something different

8:34

and new, as Dennis points out,

8:36

that this is? Something that is

8:39

worthwhile, something that could be worthwhile,

8:41

have done appropriately? Should we

8:43

dismiss it out of hand?

8:45

Is it always a terrible

8:47

idea of the direct negotiation

8:49

and discussion with Hamas? Well, if

8:52

I mean, just share, I... I grew up

8:54

in Gaza, I have family

8:56

immediate and extended and remained

8:58

there. I've lost folks in

9:00

there. I'm in regular constant

9:02

contact with a lot of

9:05

folks on the ground who

9:07

are both glad and relieved

9:09

to get some reprieve from

9:11

the end of the fighting,

9:13

but at the same time

9:15

are extraordinarily frustrated that in

9:17

a sense... We are somewhat

9:19

crawling our way back to

9:22

a modified version of the

9:24

old status quo, particularly after

9:26

seeing Hamas reemerge out of

9:28

their tunnels, put on their

9:30

military uniforms, put on these

9:32

displays during the hostage releases,

9:34

and act as if they're

9:37

very much so in full control

9:39

despite the fact that they're weakened,

9:41

despite the fact that they're in

9:43

a terrible shape. Yes, I'm a

9:46

believer in disrupting the status quo.

9:48

I'm a believer in thinking outside

9:50

the box. I'm a believer that

9:52

you cannot go around and eliminate

9:55

every single living member of Hamas.

9:57

I'm a believer that you have

9:59

to... have a combination of,

10:01

you know, a hard playing

10:03

hardball, but also like winning

10:05

over some of the so-called

10:07

moderate elements within Hamas. Avoid

10:09

learning lessons from the debatification,

10:11

the fiasco in Iraq, while

10:13

also not allowing Hamas to

10:15

simply re, you know, we

10:17

don't want a situation where

10:19

Hamas is not in control

10:21

or doesn't govern, but very

10:23

much so rains per the

10:25

Hezbollah model. So. There's frustration

10:27

on the ground that yes, it's

10:30

important to, like, I mean, people

10:32

understand that the hostages are part

10:35

of why they're suffering. Like, people

10:37

understand that there needs to be

10:39

a permanent end to the war

10:42

and that that will not happen

10:44

while Hamas holds hostages. On the

10:46

other hand, there's very much a

10:49

realization that... releasing the hostages

10:51

and getting rid of Hamas's ability

10:53

to control Gaza are in a

10:55

sense in opposition to one another

10:58

as outcomes as goals as the

11:00

and maybe there's a way to

11:02

you know eventually do one and

11:04

do the other later but This

11:06

is what frustrates me as someone

11:09

who lost 33 of my immediate and

11:11

extended family members is that what

11:13

has it all been for? What

11:15

has all this destruction and suffering?

11:17

We're coming up on the 20th

11:19

anniversary of Gaza, the withdrawal from

11:21

Gaza in 2005. I left Gaza,

11:23

I'm 34, I left as a

11:26

15-year-old in 2005, one month before

11:28

the withdrawal, and it was SIP.

11:30

to be kind of this new

11:32

beginning for Gaza's rejuvenation. It was

11:34

Gaza was supposed to be the

11:36

model for effective Palestinian self-governance, to

11:38

show to the world, to show

11:40

to our people, to the Arabs,

11:42

to the Israeli people that this

11:44

is what an occupation-free settlement-free West

11:46

Bank would look like. And when

11:48

I say that, unfortunately, I'm regularly

11:50

maligned. I'm said that I am

11:52

peddling in Hezbollah, that I am

11:54

repeating Israeli talking points. And it's

11:56

very easy to talk about, I

11:58

mean, I recognize the... balance of

12:00

power dynamics between Palestinians and Israelis.

12:03

But I am a believer that

12:05

part of disrupting the power, the

12:08

status quo, isn't just looking

12:10

to the United States, isn't just

12:12

looking to the Arabs, isn't just,

12:14

but it's looking inwards, beginning, you

12:17

know, change begins from within. And

12:19

I want to see the empowering

12:21

of alternate frameworks that can actually

12:23

be enabled by Palestinians on the

12:26

ground, the technocrats. I'm a believer,

12:28

by the way, for one of

12:30

the ideas that Mr. Woodcough and

12:32

many others have talked about. sorry,

12:35

the Palestinian Authority and the Arabs

12:37

have talked about is having

12:39

this committee of technocrats,

12:42

Hamas steps back, these

12:44

technocrats of professors, business

12:47

people, administrators, bureaucrats, kind

12:49

of, you know, media

12:51

personalities, locals, respected community

12:54

leaders, etc. I mean, it's

12:56

a wonderful idea. I support

12:58

it wholeheartedly as part of

13:00

the transition. The problem is... If

13:02

you're going to have this

13:05

committee of independent Palestinians in

13:07

Gaza rule or attempt to administer

13:09

this trip without any executive authority,

13:11

without anyone to protect them, without

13:14

anyone to basically shield them from

13:16

Hamas, If they identify Hamas's stealing

13:18

aid here, if they identify that

13:21

Hamas is redirecting cement over there

13:23

and they want to take action,

13:25

who's going to stop Hamas from

13:28

killing them? Who's going to stop

13:30

Hamas from bribing them? So that's

13:32

the frustrating part is that we're

13:35

talking about this from a... Again,

13:37

as someone who's been an ally.

13:39

and for the pursuit of healing

13:41

and reconciliation with Israelis and an

13:43

ally of hostage families of survivors

13:45

of October 7th. I absolutely want

13:48

to, I was horrified by October

13:50

7th, it doesn't represent Palestinian values,

13:52

it is inappropriate. I want the

13:54

hostages to be released. Taking women

13:57

and children and the elderly is

13:59

a horrendous. that Hamas did, and

14:01

I feel the urge to speak

14:03

out against it. But there's

14:05

a bigger kind of long-term

14:07

implication of what we do

14:10

now to release those hostages,

14:12

and how that potentially keeps

14:14

the Palestinian people in Gaza,

14:16

2.3 million people, trapped under

14:19

the iron grip of Hamas.

14:21

We're bringing Karim on

14:23

this issue of engaging directly

14:26

with Hamas, and I want to...

14:28

Read to a portion of Donald

14:30

Trump's post on X on Twitter,

14:32

that has got a lot of

14:34

attention, that begins, Shalom Hamas means

14:37

hello and goodbye. You can choose,

14:39

release all of the hostages now, not

14:41

later, and immediately return all of the

14:43

dead bodies of the people you murdered,

14:46

or it is over for you. He

14:48

goes on to say in all caps,

14:50

release the hostages now, or there will

14:52

be hell to pay later. What's wrong

14:54

with that approach, if anything? President

14:57

Trump reminds me of a concept

15:00

that psychologists oftentimes use called the

15:02

Dunning Kruger effect, which is that

15:04

the less you really know about

15:07

something, the more confident your views

15:09

about it, right? And so I

15:12

think his approach to foreign policy

15:14

in the Middle East in particular

15:16

is that Over the last decades

15:19

we've had a bunch of

15:21

morons who have failed resolving

15:23

these challenges in the Middle

15:25

East and in fact they've

15:28

made it worse. Who are

15:30

the morons? Well previous administrations

15:32

and he's been critical of

15:34

both Republican administrations like George

15:37

W. Bush and obviously Democratic

15:39

administration so he's very he's

15:41

bipartisan in his criticism of

15:43

previous US administrations and wants

15:46

to apply pretty simple solutions

15:48

to complex challenges. Now in

15:50

his first term most experts

15:53

told him that something

15:55

like the Abraham Accords

15:57

was not possible because

15:59

Arab countries like the UAE

16:02

and Bahrain and Morocco would

16:04

not normalize relations with Israel

16:07

absent some significant Israeli concessions

16:09

toward the Palestinians. Now he

16:11

proved them wrong and so

16:14

I think that this time

16:16

around he likewise is his

16:18

own most important advisor and

16:21

whether it's the Israeli Palestinian

16:24

conflict or the nuclear

16:26

standoff with Iran. The language

16:28

he uses is very simple and

16:30

I think the end games he has

16:33

in his head are also very simple

16:35

You probably saw the video he

16:37

tweeted about Trump Gaza, you know, essentially

16:39

I was going to ask about that

16:42

in a moment Yeah taking you

16:44

know one of the world's Probably

16:46

the world's most destructive war

16:48

zone and turning it into

16:50

Dubai on the Mediterranean and

16:52

so um so you're skeptical of

16:54

that well Let me just talk

16:57

about it briefly in the Iran

16:59

context, because I think what he's

17:01

essentially trying to do is to

17:04

force an outcome. And I agree

17:06

that he is hastening a climactic

17:08

situation, is not necessarily going to

17:11

end in a deal. I think

17:13

that is one possibility, a diplomatic

17:15

deal. Another possibility is it

17:17

could actually lead to conflict.

17:20

could lead to the Iranian

17:22

government's, certainly the implosion of

17:25

this current supreme leader. So

17:27

it's traditionally past administrations.

17:29

Again, with a Democrat

17:32

or Republican, if you have a

17:34

vexing foreign policy challenge, it's a

17:36

10 out of 10. You're trying

17:38

to make it an eight and

17:40

to contain the challenge. I think

17:42

what Trump likes to do is

17:44

to not contain things, but to

17:46

try to resolve them and using

17:48

pretty simple logic. oftentimes enormous coercion

17:50

coupled with the offer of a

17:52

deal and again that can lead

17:54

you it can potentially lead you

17:56

to positive outcomes but it can

17:58

also lead you to potentially dangerous

18:01

outcomes. Yeah, just to go

18:03

back to this question, can

18:05

anyone here explain why it is a

18:07

bad thing, at least on one level, for

18:09

Trump to send a strong direct

18:12

message to Hamas, a murderous group

18:14

that nobody on this panel would

18:16

defend? What's wrong with it? I

18:18

don't think there's anything wrong

18:20

with it. Okay. But for me,

18:22

look, having just done a new

18:24

book on statecraft, the key to

18:26

good statecraft is you marry objectives

18:28

and means. What he is doing

18:31

is he's staking out a very

18:33

clear objective. What are the means

18:35

that he's prepared to use? This

18:37

is not Zalinsky where he

18:39

can cut off American military

18:41

support and intelligence and put

18:43

enormous pressure on him by

18:46

the way. But he can

18:48

supply, he can supply, Israel,

18:50

yes he can. But the fact

18:52

is, what are the Israelis going

18:54

to do to Hamas that they

18:56

haven't done already? When he says he's

18:59

going to be held to pay,

19:01

they've inflicted hell already. Hamas has

19:03

already demonstrated they don't care about

19:06

the price that the Palestinian public

19:08

pays. They're quite willing to sacrifice

19:10

them. So the leverage he thinks

19:12

he's applying, he's really making, I'm

19:14

going to unleash the Israelis. He's

19:16

not really going to do a

19:19

lot. So it's not, I don't

19:21

have a problem. They've already been

19:23

unleashed. But I don't have a

19:25

problem with putting pressure on Hamas.

19:28

But I want there to be

19:30

some relationship between what he says

19:32

and what he's prepared to do

19:34

and what are the resources that

19:36

he can marshal. The irony

19:39

is there is a potential

19:41

for a day after in Gaza.

19:43

That potential involves not just

19:45

what Ahmad was talking about

19:48

in terms of what could

19:50

be a technical counsel, but

19:52

who, as you raise Ahmad,

19:55

the day-to-day security. Who

19:57

guarantees that humanitarian assistance

20:00

is distributed to those

20:02

who are in need of

20:04

it, and that Hamas doesn't

20:06

seize it and then sell

20:08

it as a way of

20:10

financing itself. We're dealing something

20:12

that's interesting, it's an interesting

20:14

paragraph. The only time Hamas

20:16

puts on its uniform is

20:18

during ceasefires. If there's war

20:20

again, they take it off. So the

20:23

point here is... Can you bring

20:25

a group of different Arab states

20:27

in? The UAE we know is

20:29

prepared to take part in a

20:31

stabilization force. They want reform in

20:33

the Palestinian Authority before they'll do

20:36

it. Not rhetorically, but practically, because

20:38

they don't want to go in

20:40

there and be stuck there. So

20:43

the point is, there are some

20:45

alternatives. I don't see him marshalling...

20:47

The means, again, if you're going

20:50

to stake out a very strong

20:52

objective, I have no problem with

20:54

that, as long as you have

20:57

a strategy for how you put

20:59

together the means to achieve that

21:02

objective. Right now I see a big gap.

21:04

I see a gap on this issue, I see

21:06

a gap also on the Iranian issue

21:08

as Korean was identifying. There's

21:10

been a lot of discussion,

21:13

including among people on

21:15

this panel, about rebuilding

21:17

Gaza. the ravages of war, given

21:19

we don't have a final undertaking here, and

21:21

we have a modification to an

21:24

undertaking, and maybe it'll be a

21:26

modification to the modification. Is this the

21:28

right time for people to be talking

21:30

about rebuilding Gaza? Is it premature? Is

21:32

it not? I actually think it's the... precise

21:34

time to talk about it for the

21:37

sole purpose of inspiring the population. I

21:39

mean, you have over 2 million people

21:41

who are incredibly desperate right now for

21:43

any ray of hope. I mean, the

21:46

problem is if you want people to

21:48

turn against Hamas, there has to be

21:50

an alternative, not just from a governance

21:52

point of view, but they have to

21:54

want hope, they have to want something

21:57

else. They have to see something on

21:59

the horizon. that can inspire and

22:01

motivate them to dig themselves out

22:03

so that they're not vulnerable to

22:05

radicalization so that they're not vulnerable

22:07

to this perpetual I mean if

22:09

we thought radicalization was bad in

22:12

Gaza before October 7th imagine how

22:14

much the potential for it to

22:16

be that much worse look at

22:18

all something like half of Gaza's

22:20

population are under the age of

22:22

18 these are folks this is

22:24

a generation that you know was

22:26

born after the elections of the

22:29

elections of 2006 and Hamas's infamous

22:31

takeover in 2007, they only

22:33

know eight hours of electricity

22:35

at a time. They only

22:37

know closures. Something like 75

22:40

to 80% of the people

22:42

of Gaza have never left

22:44

the coastal enclave. They see

22:46

it through their mobile phones,

22:48

they see TikTok, you know,

22:50

YouTube, social media. So there

22:53

has to be, for me. I

22:55

want to pair policy making with

22:57

how does that actually connect to

22:59

the local populace, which is ultimately

23:02

what's going to move the needle

23:04

on this issue and empowering them

23:06

to see an alternative. And I

23:08

think about this every single day

23:11

myself. It's like... When people ask

23:13

me, why aren't, like, why aren't

23:15

the people of Gaza rebelling against

23:17

Hamas? Why aren't they, why did

23:19

they just acquiesce right after the

23:21

war? And I myself thought that

23:23

after the war, maybe we'll see

23:26

the emergence of more cohesive voices

23:28

that'll actually come up and say,

23:30

you know what, we're really not

23:32

feeling this Hamas, like we're done,

23:34

we're sick of this. And we look

23:36

at like... that some of the

23:38

most recent polling of, you know,

23:40

only 8% of Gazans want Hamas

23:42

to remain in power after the end

23:45

of the war. And yet

23:47

I also realize that good

23:49

luck standing up to a

23:51

militant terrorist organization that the

23:53

mighty IDF itself after a

23:56

year of deadly combat couldn't

23:58

effectively fully dislodge. And we

24:00

can talk about, couldn't do it

24:02

because of the hostages, because of

24:05

Biden's hindrances, etc. So like, that's

24:07

where the talk of the reconstruction

24:09

of Gaza, that's where, for example,

24:11

like one of the things that

24:14

I want to like, and I'm

24:16

promoting both pragmatically and symbol, like

24:18

from a symbolism point of views,

24:20

I want to take a lot

24:23

of the rubble that's all over

24:25

the Gaza strip and I want

24:27

to. dump it off the coast

24:29

of the central, the center of

24:32

Gaza's coast in der El Balah,

24:34

and I want to build an

24:36

artificial peninsula and put an airfield

24:38

and a small airfield and a

24:41

small seaport and open Gaza up

24:43

to the rest of the world

24:45

with full security and PMCs and

24:47

Egyptians and coordination with Israel. to

24:50

basically have a non-Israeli and a

24:52

non-Egyptian entry and exit point to

24:54

end Gaza's permanent codependency on these

24:56

two players. Gaza's the only territory

24:59

that overlooks the Mediterranean that has

25:01

no functional seaport. And so... That's

25:03

where we, if you inspire the

25:05

population through not just talk of

25:08

rebuilding, like I was, I met

25:10

with Tony Blair a few months

25:12

ago, and you saw him about

25:14

like how Gaza doesn't just need,

25:17

and I agree with him, that's

25:19

why we met, like, doesn't just

25:21

need reconstruction, it needs to be

25:23

reconstituted. You know, and I said,

25:26

yes. propose that reimagining, reconstruction, rebuilding,

25:28

who is credible, and whose vision

25:30

can actually be implemented? Anyone else?

25:32

If you ask me, I come

25:35

back to the Emirates, because they've

25:37

actually thought about this. They've actually

25:39

done a lot on the ground.

25:41

They have... four bakeries on the

25:44

ground. They have field hospitals as

25:46

well. They provide their own security

25:48

for those bakeries. A bakeries feed

25:50

about half a million people a

25:53

day. They've actually thought about this.

25:55

They have plans about how to

25:57

do it. but they don't want

25:59

to be alone. And the truth

26:02

is, in the Biden administration, I

26:04

was helping at the end with

26:06

what was an approach that was

26:08

going to draw on the Emirates,

26:11

the Egyptians, the Moroccan, the Italians,

26:13

the Italians. You can produce an

26:15

international approach that has to have

26:17

a security dimension that we were

26:20

talking about. And it gets back

26:22

to something Ahmadine was saying, if

26:24

you need Palestinians in Gaza to

26:26

know that someone's there to protect

26:29

them. They also need to see

26:31

that Hamas is not the way

26:33

of the future. You're not going

26:35

to take great risk if you

26:38

think Hamas is still going to

26:40

be in control. Why should I

26:42

expose myself? Exactly. So I think

26:44

there is a vision that's out

26:47

there. Now you have the competing

26:49

vision that President Trump has laid

26:51

out, which is the relocation. I

26:53

have to say, when he said

26:56

it, I said, well, this is

26:58

divorced from reality. But I like

27:00

the idea that he wants to

27:02

shake things up because I think

27:05

things need to be shaken up.

27:07

Again, I'd like to know that

27:09

he actually has a strategy for

27:11

doing it. But I also understood

27:14

it put the Arabs in a

27:16

position where they didn't, there are

27:18

all sorts of reasons why they

27:20

couldn't embrace it, not the least

27:23

of which is the fear that

27:25

somehow this is the answer to

27:27

the Palestinians. Let's just relocate Palestinians.

27:29

Yes, well that. Right, it just

27:32

seems to me that so when

27:34

we talk about plausibility, which was

27:36

what I asked about a minute

27:38

ago, enormous amount of trust is

27:41

required for some of these approaches,

27:43

will there ever be enough trust

27:45

in that region on the part

27:48

of those people legitimately to allow

27:50

a plan like relocation to happen?

27:52

How are they supposed to trust

27:54

in what universe and and with

27:57

what additional trappings of assurance? Could

27:59

they trust a relocation plan? I

28:01

don't understand how that would work.

28:03

I don't think a relocation plan

28:06

as such can work. I think

28:08

it's... Technologically, culturally, it looks like

28:10

it's, it would be a second

28:12

nokba. But that doesn't mean that

28:15

people who would like to leave,

28:17

shouldn't be able to leave. There

28:19

should be, on a volunteer basis,

28:21

assuming there's places for them to

28:24

go, number one. But number two,

28:26

if you actually have an approach

28:28

that creates different zones in Gaza,

28:30

and Egypt, to its credit, has

28:33

some... practical elements in its plan,

28:35

including different zones where people can

28:37

move and they're taking care of

28:39

from a housing, medical, humanitarian standpoint,

28:42

why you begin the process of

28:44

recovery and reconstruction. The failure of

28:46

the Egyptian plan is it effectively

28:48

is creating the Hezbollah model for

28:51

Gaza, where you create what appears

28:53

to be alternative governance, but you

28:55

put Hamas in a position where

28:57

they continue to engage in coercion

29:00

and control things. This is where

29:02

you have to basically take advantage

29:04

of the mood in Gaza, which

29:06

is no more than 8% who

29:09

would like to see Hamas still

29:11

in control. But then you also

29:13

have to address all the things

29:15

that would ensure that Hamas cannot

29:18

reconstitute itself. Number one, that also

29:20

means making sure there's no smuggling.

29:22

For the people who lived in

29:24

Gaza, it was an open-air prison.

29:27

But for Hamas, it was not

29:29

an open-air prison. They got whatever

29:31

they wanted. We saw them build

29:33

350 miles of tunnels. We saw

29:36

them build a huge military industrial

29:38

base. They got whatever they wanted.

29:40

They had a very significant indigenous

29:42

weapon production capability. So you have

29:45

to cut off all the smuggling.

29:47

You have to make sure that

29:49

they can't control the distribution of

29:51

humanitarian assistance. If you're going to

29:54

have reconstruction, rehabilitation, reconstruction, you have

29:56

to have mechanisms to ensure that

29:58

none of that can be diverted.

30:00

Now all that requires a law

30:03

and order presence. That's where the

30:05

issue comes in. You create the

30:07

law and order presence. By the

30:09

way, I can tell you. The

30:12

Israelis were engaged. in a direct

30:14

negotiation with the UAE on this

30:16

plan. And the truth is they

30:18

were quite close to reaching agreement

30:21

because you're raising the issue of

30:23

trust. The fact is, notwithstanding all

30:25

of the inhibitions of this particular

30:27

Israeli coalition, the fact is there

30:30

was a negotiation going on and

30:32

it was about how to create

30:34

a day after and it was

30:36

going to create a transition and

30:39

that transition ultimately would have produced.

30:41

even if the Israelis weren't prepared

30:43

to acknowledge it, a reformed Palestinian

30:45

authority back in Gaza. Having a

30:48

non-reform Palestinian authority back in Gaza

30:50

only perpetuates the problem. It doesn't

30:52

end the problem. It only perpetuates.

30:54

It only perpetuates. It only perpetuates.

30:57

You're talking about how do we

30:59

really change Gaza when you don't

31:01

change Gaza if Hamas is in

31:03

control in the background or if

31:06

the PA unreform comes back in,

31:08

that guarantees a perpetuation of what

31:10

we've seen. Note that if it

31:12

is the case, as many people

31:15

believe that Hamas is impossible to

31:17

eradicate in total, how plausible is

31:19

the scenario that Dennis sets forth

31:21

if you presume that some amount

31:24

of effectiveness or personnel of Hamas

31:26

will always remain. So I'd be

31:28

curious to know what I had

31:30

in Dennis think about this and

31:33

in my view the diplomatic deal

31:35

that could potentially... transform the Palestinian

31:37

strategic situation is not likely going

31:39

to be with Hamas. In my

31:42

view, it's more likely to be

31:44

a potential Saudi-Israel normalization deal. And

31:46

that is essentially a three-part deal.

31:48

Saudi Arabia wants security guarantees. They

31:51

want a defense treaty from the

31:53

United States. The United States tells

31:55

them if you want a defense

31:57

treaty with the United States, you

32:00

need to normalize relations with Israel.

32:02

Muhammad bin Salman the leader of

32:04

Saudi Arabia in order to do

32:06

that says listen I need something

32:09

significant Some significant territorial concessions or

32:11

path to Palestinian statehood or else

32:13

I will get lynched by my

32:15

people in Saudi Arabia who are

32:18

very much opposed to this. So

32:20

this is a three-way, would be

32:22

a three-way diplomatic deal. It is

32:24

a major priority for President Trump.

32:27

I would say it's among this

32:29

top two, three diplomatic priorities. People

32:31

close to him say that one

32:33

of his ambitions is to win

32:36

a Nobel Peace Prize and you

32:38

know he may see this as

32:40

one of the routes to getting

32:42

there. I think there's complexities in

32:45

each capital, right, in Washington, Jerusalem,

32:47

Riyadh to reaching this deal. And

32:49

it's probably not, you know, probably

32:51

not going to unlock this challenge

32:54

with the current Palestinian leadership, right?

32:56

Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of the

32:58

Palestinian Authority, 89 years old, obviously

33:00

the leadership of Hamas would not

33:03

be relevant here. And there's also

33:05

a question of whether you can

33:07

do it with the current. Israeli

33:09

leadership with Prime Minister Netanyahu. But

33:12

my sense is that the Trump

33:14

administration's grand slam, you know, their

33:16

big dream is to do this

33:18

Saudi-Israel normalization deal, and that could

33:21

potentially unlock what we're talking about

33:23

to bring in outside investment from

33:25

Gulf countries and also about, but

33:27

none of this stuff is going

33:30

to happen as long as obviously

33:32

Hamas is there and actually frankly

33:34

that when Mahmoud Abbas is also

33:36

there, the question is, and this

33:39

is to Ahmed, you know, when

33:41

Abbas leaves the scene, is it

33:43

possible we could see a Palestinian

33:45

leader who could potentially up-unify the

33:48

polities of Gaza and the West

33:50

Bank? There's a lot of speculation

33:52

about Marwan Baruam-Bharuti, you know, he's

33:54

someone who's capable of that. I

33:57

apologize for the sirens. I'm of

33:59

the belief and I catch a

34:01

lot of heat for sharing this

34:03

in a Palestinian context that the

34:06

days of a centralized Palestinian state

34:08

are long gone. The Gaza and

34:10

the West Bank are inherently geographically,

34:12

even culturally, yes culturally, different, and

34:15

that it is time to actually

34:17

embrace that, not in the way

34:19

that. I think Prime Minister Netanyahu

34:21

tried to nefariously leverage Hamas and

34:24

the Palestinian Authority against one another

34:26

to prevent the emergence of a

34:28

Palestinian state, but to actually think

34:30

of a federalist model within the

34:33

Palestinian context in which Gaza is

34:35

an autonomous area that can be

34:37

a part of a future umbrella

34:39

state of Palestine, but I don't

34:42

see a scenario anytime soon. And

34:44

with all due respect to Mr.

34:46

Marwan Bargutti, I have heard it

34:48

from plenty of Palestinians, mainly behind

34:51

closed doors because they want to

34:53

be respectful, that we are worried

34:55

about the Sinwar Syndrome. And what

34:57

is the Sinwar Syndrome? Someone is

35:00

in jail for 20, 30 years.

35:02

They are, you know, touted as

35:04

a hero or as this big

35:06

figure. They have a lot of,

35:09

you know... personal psychological problems associated

35:11

with being in isolation that long.

35:13

And then they come out and

35:15

they assume this massive responsibility in

35:18

a completely shifted society and dynamics.

35:20

And then they either crack under

35:22

the pressure or... in Senwar's case,

35:24

they just gained this like sense

35:27

of like I am a God

35:29

and I will do whatever I

35:31

want and he literally, you know,

35:33

destroyed the Palestinian people. So this

35:36

idea that we have to, and

35:38

I'm sorry and I believe we

35:40

have many Nelson Mandela's who could

35:42

be in the makings, I'm just

35:45

not willing to bet the future

35:47

of Gaza. on Mr. Bargutti. I'm

35:49

sorry. So with that said, however,

35:51

I am a believer. And this

35:54

is why I go back to

35:56

this idea of the Technocratic Committee.

35:58

There are tens of thousands of

36:00

Palestinians in Gaza and certainly in

36:03

the West Bank, but I'm talking

36:05

about Gaza. I don't know their

36:07

names. None of us here know

36:10

their names, but if they're given

36:12

a chance to speak their mind,

36:14

to exercise dominion and authority over

36:16

their lives, to actually... trial and

36:19

error to actually be a part

36:21

of nation building, not resistance, not,

36:23

you know, the Zionist enemy, not

36:25

we are done with resistance. Gaza

36:28

is not a resistance platform. Gaza

36:30

is a place and a space

36:32

for nation building. If they're given

36:34

that space without the public shaming,

36:37

without the risk for their lives,

36:39

without Hamas, we will very quickly

36:41

in a five-year period have a

36:43

small pool. of highly qualified candidates

36:46

who could actually run for elections,

36:48

who could actually exercise leadership beyond,

36:50

because right now when we talk

36:52

leadership, we have the binary of

36:55

Hamas or Fatah, or like it's

36:57

very factionalized. And I almost believe

36:59

in like. abolishing that. I almost

37:01

believe that that needs to be,

37:04

you know, not to disrespect those

37:06

people and who want to form

37:08

political parties based on the historic

37:10

Palestinian National Project, but to rejuvenate

37:13

and renew. And that's where I

37:15

see Gaza kind of like not

37:17

bringing in the failed Soviet-style Palestinian

37:19

leadership from the West Bank in

37:22

there. I just, I see it

37:24

would be a grave mistake. and

37:26

merely taking the can down the

37:28

road in a desire to expediently

37:31

create a pathway towards a Palestinian

37:33

state so that we end up

37:35

with a Saudi normalization deal to

37:37

very quickly just like recycle elements

37:40

of what exists instead of using

37:42

this as an opportunity to create

37:44

something new. Just one quick suggestion.

37:46

Apropos, what you're saying. Karim, where

37:49

the Saudi normalization Israeli triangle comes

37:51

into play. is, as you suggested,

37:53

the U.S. takes the leadership. But

37:55

what the U.S. should be saying

37:58

to the Saudis is, you want

38:00

us to create a credible pathway

38:02

for a Palestinian state. Here's what

38:04

we require of you. If you're

38:07

serious about a Palestinian state, you

38:09

need to assume the responsibility of

38:11

producing real reform. in the PA.

38:13

We've seen real reform before. Salamfayat

38:16

came in in 2007 and he

38:18

carried out real reform. We know

38:20

it can be done. It was

38:22

done then because the Bush administration

38:25

organized all the donors and said

38:27

to Abumazan you will appoint Salamfayat

38:29

and he will be empowered and

38:31

he will be independent or we

38:34

will cut you off. The Saudis

38:36

have that kind of leverage on

38:38

Abumazan if they're prepared to apply

38:40

it. And the key to a

38:43

Palestinian state ultimately... has to be

38:45

a different Palestinian leadership. So they

38:47

can't really have it both ways.

38:49

They can't say, you, the US,

38:52

have the responsibility to create that

38:54

credible pathway without them assuming the

38:56

responsibility to do their part to

38:58

ensure we have real reform on

39:01

the Palestinian side. And as I

39:03

said, when people asked me, have

39:05

we ever seen it before? I

39:07

said, yes, we've seen it. We

39:10

saw Phi Out come in, and

39:12

he actually did it. Now he

39:14

was removed in 2012, and this

39:16

was a mistake on our part.

39:19

We should have prevented Abumazin from

39:21

removing him. I'll be right back

39:23

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42:58

can ask a question about

43:00

Saudi Arabia. Karim, you wrote

43:03

not long ago that there was

43:05

a poll as far back as

43:07

November and December

43:09

of 2023, so not long after

43:11

October 7th, showing that

43:13

95% of Saudis believe that

43:15

Hamas did not kill Israeli

43:18

civilians in October 7th. How

43:20

does that affect all of

43:23

what we've been talking about

43:25

for the last 10 minutes?

43:27

You know, in fact that poll was

43:29

from Dennis's late great colleague David

43:32

Pollack at the Washington Institute for

43:34

Neary's policy and those figures were

43:36

quite shocking to me. That was

43:38

in an essay I wrote for

43:40

Foreign Affairs about Saudi Vision 2030

43:43

versus Iran Vision 1979 and what

43:45

was striking to me was the

43:47

limited polling about Saudi public opinion,

43:49

but what we have, if you're

43:51

Mohammed bin Salman and... Your citizens

43:53

for the last year and a

43:56

half have been watching on a

43:58

daily basis on Tiknok and cable

44:00

news. destruction of Gaza and enormous

44:02

human suffering. So at this point,

44:05

probably in, you know, two, three

44:07

percent, if that, of Saudi citizens,

44:09

probably think it's a good idea

44:11

to normalize relations with Israel. And

44:14

so for him, Muhammad bin Salman,

44:16

it's okay. You can do it

44:18

if you... are not just normalizing

44:21

with Israel, but you're seen as

44:23

the guy who who helps spawn

44:25

Palestine, spawn a Palestinian state. And

44:27

as Dennis said, that gives him

44:30

enormous leverage. I'm skeptical that they're

44:32

capable, though, Saudi Arabia is capable

44:34

of playing that role of reforming

44:36

the Palestinian Authority. Perhaps, you know,

44:39

you bring in other Gulf countries

44:41

with with more experience in that,

44:43

like the UAE. But yes, that

44:46

is a real challenge. And it's

44:48

at a time when I'm also

44:50

skeptical that the Trump administration is

44:52

interested in playing this role of

44:55

bringing about political reform beyond America's

44:57

borders. That doesn't seem to really

44:59

be a priority for them. It's

45:02

true, but they can't produce what

45:04

they want unless they're prepared to

45:06

play that role. The Saudis can't

45:08

produce what they want. I referred

45:11

to the Arab Quint, which is

45:13

Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, the UAE, and

45:15

the Saudis. As a collective if

45:17

they go to Abhamaz, they have

45:20

enormous weight and it'd be very

45:22

difficult for him to say no

45:24

to them. But that can't happen.

45:27

until we're in a place where

45:29

the 106, for example, 106 page

45:31

long Egyptian plan to sideline Hamas

45:33

doesn't use the word Hamas once,

45:36

not even like literally once, they

45:38

use armed factions and wishy-washy language.

45:40

And I've spent, you know, I'm

45:43

a new entrant to this space,

45:45

if you will, but I've spent

45:47

enough time now to see the

45:49

massive difference between what is said

45:52

in public versus is what is

45:54

said behind closed doors. And in

45:56

the Arab world, if you're not

45:58

saying this publicly, it's useless. It's

46:01

meaningless. You know, you can say

46:03

behind closed doors of where we're

46:05

hoping Israel gets rid of Hamas.

46:08

We're hoping the US does this.

46:10

We're hoping the US does that.

46:12

But if you're not actually willing

46:14

to even mention the word Hamas

46:17

in a plan. designed to sideline

46:19

Hamas, then I don't know what

46:21

to expect of Arab diplomacy at

46:24

this point. But just to your

46:26

point, Ambassador Ross, like real briefly,

46:28

going back to just an earlier

46:30

point, I'm a big believer as

46:33

much as I was opposed to

46:35

the forced displacement and forced relocation,

46:37

if you will, knock but to

46:39

point out, as some called it,

46:42

of Trump's plan. Like, who am

46:44

I? I got out, I got,

46:46

you know, my mom's out, I

46:49

got my brother's wife and four

46:51

kids out. I helped many Gazans

46:53

get out. Who am I to

46:55

sit here and say, no, you

46:58

have no right to leave? And

47:00

in fact, Gaza is the only

47:02

modern conflict, urban warfare in contemporary

47:05

history and challenge me if you

47:07

want on this, in Fallujah, in

47:09

Mosul, in Ukraine, in Libya, in

47:11

Sudan, in Myanmar, everywhere, in Yemen,

47:14

in Somalia, everywhere there's conflict, people

47:16

flee. except in Gaza because we

47:18

had the sea, we had Israel,

47:20

and we had three Berlin walls

47:23

on the Egyptian side. And of

47:25

course it didn't help that at

47:27

the beginning of October 7th, there

47:30

were all these statements by the

47:32

Israeli officials who were talking about

47:34

the transfer scenario and the transfer

47:36

situation. The Egyptians were terrified of

47:39

this. Still, I believe that it

47:41

is an absolute travesty. to hold

47:43

people against their will and have

47:46

them be in a situation where

47:48

they're facing ferocious Israeli fire, horrendous

47:50

behavior by Hamas that is hiding

47:52

in hospitals and is hiding in

47:55

schools and is using in Shigazans

47:57

indirectly as human shields. So like

47:59

that's where I'm not willing to

48:01

be comfortable with that anymore. And

48:04

if there's a scenario where some

48:06

place is willing to arrange for

48:08

Gazans wishing and wanting to leave,

48:11

then who am I to sit

48:13

here in Washington and be like,

48:15

no, you need to hold the

48:17

land and resist. face off against

48:20

the Zionists. Like, that's been disgusting

48:22

to observe of those who proclaim

48:24

to be pro- Palestine, but are

48:27

determined to basically see dead Palestinians

48:29

instead of actually save the most

48:31

Palestinian lives. I want to ask,

48:33

we talked about Saudi sentiment, and

48:36

maybe that doesn't matter so much,

48:38

even if it's 97% in one

48:40

direction. What is the role and

48:42

significance and relevance of US public

48:45

sentiment? Who has a finger on

48:47

the pulse of what U.S.-American people

48:49

sentiment is at the moment, or

48:52

is it mixed? I think it's

48:54

mixed. Look, we've seen polls that

48:56

suggest there's a huge gap between

48:58

where Republicans and Democrats are. I

49:01

think most Americans would like to

49:03

see the conflict end without knowing

49:05

much about it, without really making

49:08

a case for... What should happen

49:10

next? You just want to see

49:12

it end. I think that's an

49:14

instinct that's understandable. Trump wants to

49:17

see it end. I think we

49:19

collectively want to see it end.

49:21

I think there's a pathway to

49:23

ending it, but a lot of

49:26

it depends upon how you make

49:28

sure that Hamas cannot reconstitute itself.

49:30

The right approach in my mind

49:33

should be an approach under the

49:35

umbrella of reconstruction for demilitarization. If

49:37

there's reconstruction for demilitarization, that by

49:39

definition is going to profoundly limit

49:42

Hamas, but then it has to

49:44

be real. If you don't have

49:46

demilitarization, there'll be no reconstruction. No

49:49

one is going to invest in

49:51

rebuilding Gaza knowing that Hamas can

49:53

do that. this all over again.

49:55

So I think if you explain

49:58

it to the American public like

50:00

that, I think they would get

50:02

it. And I don't, you know,

50:05

except for a small percentage of

50:07

activists who, as Ahmed says, they're

50:09

quite willing to sacrifice the Palestinians

50:11

to save the Palestinian cause. Thank

50:14

you very much. If I'm a

50:16

Palestinian, I say, thank you very

50:18

much, but I think I prefer

50:20

a different approach. I think most

50:23

people would say, end the war

50:25

in a way where Hamas can't

50:27

do this again. I think that's

50:30

the overriding sentiment here. Is that

50:32

possible, Karim? Listen, I mean, Ahmed

50:34

is the Palestinian here, I would

50:36

defer to him. There's, I've kind

50:39

of two conflicting thoughts in my

50:41

head, which is over the last

50:43

decades, what has usually been wrought

50:46

from violent conflict and war doesn't

50:48

usually spawn more moderate politicians. So

50:50

we've seen that in other contexts.

50:52

At the same time... This has

50:55

been a level of destruction to

50:57

such a degree that we probably,

50:59

we could argue it's unprecedented. We

51:01

haven't seen this in other contexts.

51:04

So I think what Ahmed said

51:06

earlier is a very important point,

51:08

which is people have to see

51:11

a potential alternative for themselves. I

51:13

would have a, I'll be very

51:15

curious to, I know we don't

51:17

have great polling, but I can't

51:20

imagine a high percentage of residents

51:22

of Gaza. think that the way

51:24

that Hamas is, Hamas is decision-making,

51:27

its governance, that's not how people

51:29

want to live. So I have

51:31

these conflicting thoughts that on one

51:33

hand, you know, there is among

51:36

a vast majority of Palestinians a

51:38

desire to live differently. Challenge, we've

51:40

oftentimes seen in the Middle East,

51:42

and I say this in Iran

51:45

in many other contexts, is that

51:47

It's not the will of the

51:49

majority that often prevails. It's the

51:52

will of a small group of...

51:54

armed, organized, highly violent people. And,

51:56

you know, Hamas obviously checks those

51:58

boxes. And if I may just

52:01

very briefly add to that, I

52:03

mean, none of what I've been

52:05

saying throughout, you know, our time

52:08

together here is to undermine the

52:10

rage and anger that exists towards

52:12

the Israeli government and the Israeli

52:14

military that many in Gaza have

52:17

that many rightfully feel as the

52:19

consequence of having endured the horrendous

52:21

bombardment. I mean, my brother, my

52:23

childhood home that I grew up

52:26

in was destroyed, and my brother

52:28

and his four kids and four

52:30

little babies and his wife, like,

52:33

you know, they pushed their way

52:35

out of the rubble. Like, I

52:37

am furious myself, like, there is

52:39

one air strike on December 14th

52:42

that killed 29. of my family

52:44

members. There were 14 children who

52:46

were under the age of nine

52:49

and you know the... New York

52:51

Times did an investigation and there

52:53

were multiple attempts to ask the

52:55

idea of like why did this

52:58

air strike happen and all we

53:00

got was like boilerplate you know

53:02

language and responses. So I am

53:04

furious I'm angry I'm choosing not

53:07

to be hateful I want to

53:09

break the vicious cycle but that

53:11

is all to say that of

53:14

course Israel bears tremendous responsibility and

53:16

how it chose to carry out

53:18

this war though I maintain that

53:20

Like, of course there was going

53:23

to be a war. Like, what

53:25

did Hamas think? You're going to

53:27

attack the Jewish people and commit

53:30

the worst atrocity since the Holocaust,

53:32

and Israel's just going to be

53:34

like, okay, all right, no problem.

53:36

My thing is, I want to

53:39

look at that, remember what I

53:41

started with, that imbalance of power

53:43

dynamics of yes, Israel has overwhelming

53:45

power and economic, political, military, etc.

53:48

over the palisades. But where we

53:50

have space for agency and accountability

53:52

and responsibility, I want us to

53:55

ace that. I want to invest,

53:57

I don't want to, we need.

53:59

Saudi, UAE support, we need US

54:01

support, we need all of that,

54:04

but I want us to look

54:06

at how do we change the

54:08

narrative from within, because I am

54:11

seeing a shift due to the

54:13

destruction, due to the damage, due

54:15

to the horror, where Palestinians and

54:17

Gaza aren't Zionist all of a

54:20

sudden, but they're also like, we

54:22

are done with this armed resistance

54:24

narrative. We are done. And Al

54:26

Jazeera isn't showing that. You know,

54:29

all these like influencers online aren't

54:31

showing that. The pro- Palestine industrial

54:33

complex isn't showing that, but I

54:36

see it. I feel it. I

54:38

talk to people. Palestinian voices beyond

54:40

just Hamas Fatah Pia, you know,

54:42

Arab international peacekeeping forces, all of

54:45

which I completely support, and I'm

54:47

behind. But it's like, I actually

54:49

want to empower the alternate from

54:52

within the Palestinian society. And that's

54:54

not going to lead to the

54:56

rapid, you know, release of hostages

54:58

or whatever. But that is the

55:01

enduring solution to actually invest in

55:03

the Palestinian people in Gaza to

55:05

form a better future. I'm fixated

55:07

on one point that seems to

55:10

be difficult, although there are many,

55:12

many difficult points, and that is,

55:14

if I'm hearing all of you

55:17

correctly, the one condition precedent to

55:19

all these things, to rebuilding, to

55:21

having that peninsula, to having an

55:23

independent airport, to having peace, to

55:26

having prosperity, all of that is

55:28

contingent on multiple things. But one

55:30

of the things that's contingent upon,

55:33

is contingent on complete and total

55:35

neutering of Hamas, such that it

55:37

cannot cause the same amount of

55:39

pain, and it cannot reconstitute itself

55:42

in the future. But what I

55:44

haven't heard, and maybe I've missed

55:46

it, is the outlook for that

55:48

happening, that one condition, the complete

55:51

and total neutering of Hamas, and

55:53

our... on a path to doing

55:55

that? Is it something we just

55:58

hope and pray for? Does it

56:00

require additional armaments? If I'm correct

56:02

about the conditioned precedent, what is

56:04

it going to take to get

56:07

that to be in place? I

56:09

want to address it because I

56:11

also want to draw a distinction.

56:14

Whenever I've heard certain Israelis talk

56:16

about the eradication of Hamas. I

56:18

said neutering, I didn't see eradication.

56:20

No, I'm not saying you, but

56:23

I'm raising it for a reason,

56:25

because there's a distinction between the

56:27

defeat of Hamas, the inability of

56:29

Hamas to reconstitute itself, and the

56:32

eradication of Hamas. The Israelis can

56:34

no more eradicate Hamas than we

56:36

could eradicate ISIS. You can't eradicate

56:39

an ideology. You will hope that

56:41

basically it is discredited. And this

56:43

gets at the issue of empowering

56:45

Palestinians to the point where their

56:48

narrative will be defined by coexistence

56:50

as opposed to resistance. So long

56:52

as the Palestinian narrative is based

56:55

on resistance, you can't do away

56:57

with Hamas. Now what you can

56:59

do is you weaken Hamas to

57:01

the point where it becomes very

57:04

difficult for it to rebuild itself.

57:06

One of the reasons I said

57:08

before, we have this interesting paradox.

57:10

The only time Hamas is in

57:13

uniform now is when there's a

57:15

ceasefire and they can put on

57:17

a show. The truth is they

57:20

have been dramatically weakened by the

57:22

Israelis. the right strategies take advantage

57:24

of the fact that they have

57:26

been so weakened to come up

57:29

with a transitional administration where there

57:31

will be a security presence that

57:33

and you will prevent smuggling so

57:36

they can't reconstitute you will prevent

57:38

diversion material so they can't rebuild

57:40

themselves there should also be a

57:42

kind of collective approach to cut

57:45

off the monies that go to

57:47

them that is also something that

57:49

is possible so you're asking is

57:51

it possible to get there my

57:54

answer is Yes, but it takes

57:56

yes, how far along are we

57:58

well? We're not that far long

58:01

because this kind of day after

58:03

strategy has been discussed but nobody's

58:05

assumed now responsibility since the Trump

58:07

administration came in to mobilize that.

58:10

To its credit the Biden administration

58:12

was working on that, although its

58:14

biggest problem was it started it

58:17

was too little too late and

58:19

it didn't get really serious about

58:21

it until too late in the

58:23

day. Now the Trump administration came

58:26

in and didn't pick up any

58:28

of that. It should pick up

58:30

that because it has an interest

58:32

in being able to end the

58:35

war. You're not going to end

58:37

the war until it's pretty clear

58:39

you know what comes next. That's

58:42

kind of the problem with where

58:44

the Trump administration is right now.

58:46

When you lay out relocation and

58:48

you're saying to the air, I

58:51

come with a credible plan, what

58:53

now needs to happen with the

58:55

Egyptian plan, there needs to be,

58:58

the White House has said, we'll

59:00

continue talking. come back with the

59:02

specifics of what would make this

59:04

plan credible. The Egyptians have put

59:07

something on the table. I can

59:09

tell you from my conversations with

59:11

both the Saudis and the Emirates,

59:13

in principle they'll support this plan,

59:16

but they would not be unhappy

59:18

at all if the Trump administration

59:20

were to say, now let's get

59:23

to, let's get down to cases

59:25

as to how to translate this

59:27

into a reality. Right now it

59:29

falls short. Here's the area where

59:32

it falls short because it does

59:34

not address the issue of Hamas

59:36

and it has to. You talk

59:39

to others, again, this is, Ahmad's

59:41

point earlier, is exactly right. I

59:43

never trusted anything I heard only

59:45

in private. In all the negotiations,

59:48

you know, I said, the minute

59:50

you say this in public, I'll

59:52

know it's real. So long as

59:54

you're telling me this only in

59:57

private, I know it's not real.

59:59

That has to be part of

1:00:01

what the Trump administration's approach is.

1:00:04

President Trump wants to achieve what

1:00:06

he wants. He doesn't just want

1:00:08

to end the war, he wants

1:00:10

a Nobel Prize. Okay, to get

1:00:13

the Nobel Prize, he's going to

1:00:15

have to end the war, and

1:00:17

he's going to have to take

1:00:20

this and translate it into a

1:00:22

new reality. And the French Riviera.

1:00:24

The Riviera on the Mediterranean. I've

1:00:26

got two more questions for you

1:00:29

folks than you've been very kind

1:00:31

with your time. One, given everything

1:00:33

that's going on, given all of

1:00:36

your views and reflections from this

1:00:38

hour and the past number of

1:00:40

months, what's your level of optimism

1:00:42

over the next six to ten

1:00:45

months? Karim. I like to look

1:00:47

at things on a 1 to

1:00:49

10 scale. If so, if 10

1:00:51

is, I'm very optimistic and one

1:00:54

is, I'm very pessimistic. You said

1:00:56

six to 10 months, I'm pessimistic

1:00:58

in the near term. I'm not

1:01:01

optimistic that we're going to see

1:01:03

a near term resolution. Now, probably

1:01:05

some of you saw the special

1:01:07

envoy for hostages is commenced a

1:01:10

direct dialogue with Hamas, which is...

1:01:12

upset the Israelis, so there's some

1:01:14

momentum there. So hopefully we get

1:01:17

some hostages released, but I don't

1:01:19

in the near term see any

1:01:21

ideas, whether it's from Trump's tweets

1:01:23

or from Arab partners, that there's

1:01:26

a roadmap to something better. Let

1:01:28

me just wake also one observation,

1:01:30

which is I'm always reminded of

1:01:32

something that Henry Kissinger once said

1:01:35

that Before he went into government

1:01:37

when he was an academic at

1:01:39

Harvard, he thought that the individual

1:01:42

didn't really matter that much in

1:01:44

history and that whoever is in

1:01:46

charge of countries, they'll nations invariably

1:01:48

follow their own kind of natural

1:01:51

interests. And it was, you know,

1:01:53

after he served in government that

1:01:55

he said he reached the exact

1:01:58

opposite conclusion, which is that the

1:02:00

individual actually matters profoundly in history.

1:02:02

And, you know, he cited the

1:02:04

example of people like Sadat Rabin

1:02:07

and Israel. Part of the reason

1:02:09

I'm not terribly optimistic, at least

1:02:11

in the near term, is that

1:02:13

I don't see great leaders in

1:02:16

statesmen, whether among the Palestinians or

1:02:18

in Israel, you know, people are

1:02:20

driven by their short-term political prerogative.

1:02:23

And so, perhaps, you know, my

1:02:25

answer would change, perhaps six months

1:02:27

from now, if we have a

1:02:29

new set of leaders, but I

1:02:32

don't see those leaders at the

1:02:34

moment. Briefly, Ahmed, Dennis? I, in

1:02:36

the short, very, very short term,

1:02:39

I'm incredibly pessimistic. I am, like,

1:02:41

really, really struggling. There were, I

1:02:43

had war gained a variety of

1:02:45

scenarios in which... basically something less

1:02:48

than like 5% of what I

1:02:50

had predicted had happened as far

1:02:52

as like Gazans being able to

1:02:54

have a unified internal cohesive voice

1:02:57

within Gaza that can rise up

1:02:59

not in a militant fashion but

1:03:01

that can rise up and begin

1:03:04

to talk to the world that

1:03:06

we are not interested in perpetual

1:03:08

resistance. We are not, but Hamas's

1:03:10

resurgence has very much so made

1:03:13

that impossible. I did not predict

1:03:15

that Hamas would so quickly resume

1:03:17

control of Gaza in the way

1:03:20

that they have, and my brother

1:03:22

runs a major international NGO on

1:03:24

the ground in Gaza, like a

1:03:26

British medical NGO, and so... Like

1:03:29

I hear it from different angles

1:03:31

not just from chatter but from

1:03:33

people who are working on the

1:03:35

ground handling millions of dollars worth

1:03:38

of humanitarian aid However I remain

1:03:40

I would not have I basically

1:03:42

uprooted my life from California and

1:03:45

came to DC six months ago

1:03:47

because I am Inherently optimistic that

1:03:49

out of this not in the

1:03:51

immediate term, but how about the

1:03:54

middle to longer term? I actually

1:03:56

think absolutely there will be optimism.

1:03:58

There will absolutely be an opportunity,

1:04:01

you know, to reform, to rejuvenate

1:04:03

and transform Gaza and to have

1:04:05

a renaissance in there really. But

1:04:07

that's where, again, I go back

1:04:10

to we need organic, like some

1:04:12

of this, there will have to

1:04:14

be outside influence. and outside plans

1:04:16

that are brought in, but there

1:04:19

needs to be a parallel track

1:04:21

that tries to actually foment a

1:04:23

new school of thought from within,

1:04:26

that is there, that is just

1:04:28

waiting for resources, waiting for the

1:04:30

protection, waiting for the support. And

1:04:32

I'm not talking about a CIA-style

1:04:35

intervention. I'm just talking about like

1:04:37

an intellectual kind of political rejuvenation.

1:04:39

I also believe that I am

1:04:42

done, honestly, like I've seen the

1:04:44

amount of meanings and plans and

1:04:46

post-Gaza visions that I've seen. I

1:04:48

don't want to hear about any

1:04:51

more new plan for Gaza. What

1:04:53

I want to see is I

1:04:55

actually want to see fragmented compartmentalized

1:04:57

approaches to solving specific problems in

1:05:00

the near future to addressing the

1:05:02

humanitarian suffering, to addressing security. Like

1:05:04

I want small gains that can

1:05:07

cumulatively. kind of break the impasse.

1:05:09

Like we keep developing these visions

1:05:11

and these plans and the Egyptians

1:05:13

and the Israel policy forum and

1:05:16

Niyahu's thing and the Arabs and

1:05:18

the Emirates and the Palestinian Authority.

1:05:20

Like we don't need any more

1:05:23

planning. What we need is action

1:05:25

to like take elements like very

1:05:27

and that's why I actually believe

1:05:29

that even when Hamas is still

1:05:32

in power in Gaza. There are

1:05:34

things we can do right now,

1:05:36

like this peninsula that I am

1:05:38

proposing. I actually, my whole vision

1:05:41

is that peninsula can operate even

1:05:43

during times of war. I actually

1:05:45

think that part of the solution...

1:05:48

is going to be the great,

1:05:50

like Hamas will eventually realize that

1:05:52

they are out of options. Like

1:05:54

they used to criminalize, like right

1:05:57

now they're running around on Al

1:05:59

Jazeera saying like, we had to

1:06:01

talk to the Americans, we had

1:06:04

no option but to talk to

1:06:06

the Americans, because a lot of

1:06:08

people were like, wait, why are

1:06:10

you talking to the great Satan

1:06:13

and you were just in Tehran?

1:06:15

And so, like, I think we

1:06:17

push Hamas while we do something

1:06:19

on the ground. We empower, like

1:06:22

we attack it from multiple angles

1:06:24

and we stop this charade that

1:06:26

we're going to have these these

1:06:29

comprehensive breakthroughs any time soon. Ambassador?

1:06:31

I would be more optimistic if

1:06:33

I saw a readiness if I

1:06:35

saw a readiness at implementation. I

1:06:38

don't see anybody. focused on that.

1:06:40

And the absence of implementing things

1:06:42

is what makes me pessimistic in

1:06:45

the near term. If we were

1:06:47

doing this a year from now,

1:06:49

I'm much more hopeful. I see

1:06:51

the potential. I think there is

1:06:54

going to be some, there will

1:06:56

for sure be some soul searching

1:06:58

on the Israeli side. It's going

1:07:00

to come. I would love to

1:07:03

see it on the Palestinian side.

1:07:05

There's never been a political social

1:07:07

context that permitted that on the

1:07:10

Palestinian side. After this kind of

1:07:12

a catastrophe for Palestinians, it would

1:07:14

be good to begin to see

1:07:16

it. You folks have been very

1:07:19

generous with your time. Karim, Ahmed,

1:07:21

Dennis, thanks so much. I really

1:07:23

appreciate it. Thank you for having

1:07:26

us. We discussed Trump's approach to

1:07:28

Russia. To try out the membership,

1:07:30

head to cafe.com/insider. Again, that's cafe.com/insider.

1:07:32

Stay tuned. After the break, I'll

1:07:35

discuss a recent executive order that

1:07:37

isn't making headlines, but has big

1:07:39

implications. Support

1:07:50

for stay tuned comes from the NPR

1:07:52

podcast up first. There is a blizzard

1:07:54

of breaking news coming out of Washington

1:07:56

every single day right now. Trying to

1:07:58

keep track of... everything you need to

1:08:00

know can feel impossible, especially if you're

1:08:02

trying to stay informed without also subjecting

1:08:04

your poor brain to burn out exhaustion

1:08:06

and absurd levels of anxiety. If you're

1:08:08

looking for a way to learn everything

1:08:10

you need to know without getting completely

1:08:12

overwhelmed, you might want to listen to

1:08:14

the NPR podcast up first. Up first

1:08:16

is a daily show that covers the

1:08:19

three most important stories of the day

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1:08:42

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1:08:44

and break down what's going on without

1:08:47

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1:08:49

more news and less noise, you can

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NPR today. Support for the show

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get to your questions I want

1:11:21

to end the show this week

1:11:24

by talking about one executive order

1:11:26

recently issued by Donald Trump, that

1:11:28

hasn't gotten as much attention as

1:11:31

some of the others. There are

1:11:33

in fact two executive orders that

1:11:35

Trump has signed and issued that

1:11:38

directly target by name prominent law

1:11:40

firms in the United States. The

1:11:42

first was directed against a preeminent

1:11:45

law firm named Covington Burling, but

1:11:47

it's the second one directed at

1:11:49

another prominent law firm named Perkins

1:11:52

Kui. They wanted to talk about

1:11:54

for a minute. I will say,

1:11:56

even though it is not getting

1:11:59

top billing in terms of the

1:12:01

news, given what's happening in the

1:12:03

stock market, given what's happening in

1:12:06

Ukraine, given what's happening. in the

1:12:08

Middle East, in the legal industry,

1:12:10

of which I am a member,

1:12:13

it's an earthquake. So what is

1:12:15

this executive order all about? And

1:12:17

what's happening with it? And why

1:12:20

should you care? Well, the executive

1:12:22

order is entitled Addressing Risks from

1:12:24

Perkins Kui LLP. And it frames

1:12:27

its actions, the president's actions, as

1:12:29

a matter of national security. But

1:12:31

I think the evidence will show,

1:12:34

and the public record will ultimately

1:12:36

show, and probably already sufficiently shows,

1:12:38

that it's a lot less about

1:12:41

national security, and more directly, a

1:12:43

strike against perceived political opponents. You

1:12:45

see, Perkins Cooey has a lot

1:12:48

of different kinds of clients, like

1:12:50

many large law firms do. They

1:12:52

have tech clients, like Amazon and

1:12:55

Google, but they have also in

1:12:57

the past represented Democratic interests. Perkins

1:12:59

Cooey represented Hillary Clinton. Among other

1:13:02

things, Perkins Cooey hired a company

1:13:04

called Fusion GPS to commission. the

1:13:06

notorious Steele dossier, the controversial 2016

1:13:09

document that connected Trump to Russia.

1:13:11

The Steele dossier, you might remember,

1:13:13

was largely discredited after a series

1:13:16

of investigations revealed many of its

1:13:18

central allegations were not true. One

1:13:20

of its former lawyers and former

1:13:23

stay-tuned guest Mark Elias also represented

1:13:25

democratic interests in case after case

1:13:27

after case after case relating to

1:13:30

the 2020 election. when Donald Trump

1:13:32

and his lawyers tried to steal

1:13:34

it. And so Donald Trump has

1:13:37

a lot of reasons, not to

1:13:39

like that firm, for political reasons,

1:13:41

not national security reasons. So what

1:13:44

does the executive order purport to

1:13:46

do? Well, a few things that

1:13:48

are fairly remarkable. One, it revokes

1:13:51

security clearances in Perkins-Koui attorneys, those

1:13:53

who have them at least. That

1:13:55

means that if you're a lawyer

1:13:58

at Perkins-Koui... defending a client in

1:14:00

a sensitive national security investigation, you're

1:14:02

suddenly out of luck. Two. Federal

1:14:05

agencies through the executive order are

1:14:07

instructed to terminate to the maximum

1:14:09

extent permitted by applicable law any

1:14:11

existing contracts with companies represented by

1:14:14

Perkins Cooey, especially on matters related

1:14:16

to the contract. That could end

1:14:18

up being a sizable amount of

1:14:21

business and revenue to the firm.

1:14:23

Three, and this is very remarkable,

1:14:25

the executive order purports to restrict

1:14:28

Perkins Cooey attorneys from entering federal

1:14:30

buildings and secure facilities and secure

1:14:32

facilities. Think of how hard that

1:14:35

makes it, to handle government-related legal

1:14:37

cases, of which they have many.

1:14:39

And finally, the order calls for

1:14:42

a detailed review of the firm's

1:14:44

diversity and inclusion policies, suggesting they

1:14:46

might violate civil rights law. And

1:14:49

in fact, it goes further, directing

1:14:51

that the EEOC and the Attorney

1:14:53

General of the United States, take

1:14:56

a look at the DEA programs

1:14:58

of all large law firms to

1:15:00

pick a different metaphor. This is

1:15:03

like an atom bomb. in the

1:15:05

larger legal community, because any law

1:15:07

firm could be next. In fact,

1:15:10

Trump said just a day or

1:15:12

two ago, in an interview on

1:15:14

Fox News, quote, we have a

1:15:17

lot of law firms that were

1:15:19

going to be going after, because

1:15:21

they were very dishonest people. They

1:15:24

were very, very dishonest, end quote.

1:15:26

So the firm that's the target

1:15:28

of this EU, Perkins Kui, is,

1:15:31

of course, fighting back. They hired

1:15:33

another venerable law firm, Williams and

1:15:35

Connolly. that on Tuesday evening of

1:15:38

this week filed a very substantial

1:15:40

complaint in federal court seeking a

1:15:42

temporary restraining order, among other things,

1:15:45

against the enforcement of this executive

1:15:47

order. I get to the claims

1:15:49

and the complaint in a moment,

1:15:52

but a couple of quick housekeeping

1:15:54

matters that the complaint puts into

1:15:56

perspective. Things that have already been

1:15:59

known from the public record. Among

1:16:01

them, the two principal lawyers on

1:16:03

the cases and matters that Donald

1:16:06

Trump seems not to like, Mark

1:16:08

Elias... and Michael Sussman have been

1:16:10

gone from Perkins Cooey for years.

1:16:13

Second, Donald Trump has already sued

1:16:15

Perkins Kui in a massive RICO

1:16:17

complaint, along with Hillary Clinton and

1:16:20

other folks. And that complaint, that

1:16:22

lawsuit by Donald Trump, against this

1:16:24

very same firm, against whom he's

1:16:27

issued this executive order, that lawsuit

1:16:29

was dismissed. So what are the

1:16:31

actual particular claims that Williamson Connolly

1:16:34

makes on behalf of Perkins Kui?

1:16:36

Well, they allege a lot of

1:16:38

violations. of a lot of amendments

1:16:41

to the Constitution. Various provisions of

1:16:43

the First Amendment, the Fifth Amendment,

1:16:45

and even the Sixth Amendment. This

1:16:48

is paragraph 10 of the complaint.

1:16:50

I'll read it in full. Quote,

1:16:52

because the order in effect adjudicates

1:16:55

and punishes alleged misconduct by Perkins

1:16:57

Kui, it is an unconstitutional violation

1:16:59

of the separation of powers. Because

1:17:01

it does so without notice and

1:17:04

an opportunity to be heard, and

1:17:06

because it punishes the entire firm

1:17:08

for the purported misconduct of a

1:17:11

handful of lawyers who are not

1:17:13

employees of the firm, it is

1:17:15

an unconstitutional violation of procedural due

1:17:18

process and of the substantive due

1:17:20

process right to practice one's professional

1:17:22

livelihood. Because the order singles out

1:17:25

Prickens Kui, it denies the firm

1:17:27

the equal protection of the laws

1:17:29

guaranteed by the due process clause

1:17:32

of the Fifth Amendment. Because the

1:17:34

order punishes the firm for the

1:17:36

clients with which it has been

1:17:39

associated and the legal positions it

1:17:41

has taken on matters of election

1:17:43

law, the order constitutes retaliatory viewpoint

1:17:46

discrimination and therefore violates the First

1:17:48

Amendment rights of free expression and

1:17:50

association and the right to petition

1:17:53

the government for redress. Because the

1:17:55

order compels disclosure of confidential information

1:17:57

revealing the firm's relationships with its

1:18:00

clients, it violates the First Amendment.

1:18:02

Because the order retaliates against Perkins-Kooey

1:18:04

for its diversity-related speech, it violates

1:18:07

the First Amendment. Because the order

1:18:09

is vague in prescribing what is

1:18:11

prohibited diversity equity and inclusion, it

1:18:14

violates the due process clause of

1:18:16

the Fifth Amendment. Because the order

1:18:18

works to brand Perkins Kui as

1:18:21

persona non grata and bar it

1:18:23

from federal buildings, deny it the

1:18:25

ability to communicate with federal employees,

1:18:28

and terminate the government contracts of

1:18:30

its clients, the order violates the

1:18:32

right to counsel afforded by the

1:18:35

Fifth and Sixth Amendments. End quote.

1:18:37

You'll see the repeated use in

1:18:39

that summary paragraph of a particular

1:18:42

verb. Retaliates, retaliates again and again.

1:18:44

And the record, by the way,

1:18:46

that these lawyers will be able

1:18:49

to rely on of Donald Trump

1:18:51

and his minions, including people who

1:18:53

are high up at the Justice

1:18:56

Department, lays the foundation for his

1:18:58

intent even before he took office

1:19:00

to retaliate against people and the

1:19:03

people who represented the people who

1:19:05

he disagrees with. Now, literally, as

1:19:07

I'm recording this on the afternoon

1:19:10

of Wednesday, March 12th, the temporary

1:19:12

restraining order, the TRO hearing, is

1:19:14

ongoing in a court, the courtroom

1:19:17

of Chief Judge Beryl Howell in

1:19:19

the DC District Court. So since

1:19:21

I'm recording this, I haven't been

1:19:24

able to watch the hearing, but

1:19:26

I just got the news, which

1:19:28

is not overly surprising, that Beryl

1:19:31

Howell, the judge, has in fact

1:19:33

granted the temporary restraining order, presumably

1:19:35

in part. because Perkins Kui and

1:19:38

its lawyers were able to demonstrate

1:19:40

that without a TRO, they would

1:19:42

suffer what we've talked about in

1:19:45

the podcast many times, something called

1:19:47

irreparable harm, irreparable injury. The complaint

1:19:49

actually details in paragraph after paragraph

1:19:51

after paragraph after paragraph, after paragraph,

1:19:54

and this will have to be

1:19:56

verified, but the allegations in the

1:19:58

complaint in all those paragraphs is

1:20:01

that particular clients who have particular

1:20:03

matters... with the lawyers of Perkins

1:20:05

Kui have either walked away or

1:20:08

have threatened to walk away. Substantial

1:20:10

portions of their business are at

1:20:12

risk. The complaint alleges something like

1:20:15

a quarter of their business. comes

1:20:17

from companies that have government contracts.

1:20:19

All of that business is threatened.

1:20:22

In fact, the lawyers for Perkins

1:20:24

Kui have claimed that this executive

1:20:26

order, if allowed to stay in

1:20:29

place and if enforced, would be

1:20:31

the death knell of the firm

1:20:33

as a whole. Now aside from

1:20:36

all the legal arguments that will

1:20:38

be brought to bear, and of

1:20:40

course the Trump administration will have

1:20:43

its arguments too, it will argue

1:20:45

national security, such as they can,

1:20:47

but... The final comment on the

1:20:50

case is, it doesn't appear that

1:20:52

the executive order will get a

1:20:54

warm hearing or a warm welcome

1:20:57

from members of the bench. And

1:20:59

that's because every single federal judge

1:21:01

comes from the ranks of professional

1:21:04

lawyers raised in the profession, from

1:21:06

law school to passage of the

1:21:08

bar, to admission to various bars

1:21:11

in the country, a tradition of

1:21:13

not only understanding the Constitution, but

1:21:15

also respecting and wanting to uphold

1:21:18

the principle that lawyers can represent

1:21:20

any client they wish and should

1:21:22

be able to do so unfettered

1:21:25

and that clients have the right

1:21:27

to counsel and they have the

1:21:29

right to their choice of counsel

1:21:32

in this executive order at first

1:21:34

blush I think to most judges

1:21:36

probably of either stripe probably across

1:21:39

the ideological spectrum as professionals as

1:21:41

officers of the court and members

1:21:43

of the court. They will find,

1:21:46

I believe, that it does violence

1:21:48

to that which professional members of

1:21:50

the bar hold dear. You write

1:21:53

to counsel, your choice of counsel,

1:21:55

the freedom to represent your clients

1:21:57

vigorously, and the mandate that we

1:22:00

not judge lawyers by their clients.

1:22:02

The decidedly non-left-wing editorial page of

1:22:04

the Wall Street Journal has found

1:22:07

itself opining on this issue, even

1:22:09

before the filing of this complaint.

1:22:11

The editorial page wrote recently, quote,

1:22:14

few wrote more often. or critically

1:22:16

than we did about fusion GPS

1:22:18

and the steel dossier. And in

1:22:21

real time, when it was unpopular

1:22:23

to do so, the Wall Street

1:22:25

Journal goes on to say, in

1:22:28

their view, Perkins Kui has shown

1:22:30

it's a partisan firm, and its

1:22:32

former partner Michael Sussman was charged

1:22:35

but acquitted of a crime related

1:22:37

to the phony Russia collusion scandal.

1:22:39

According to the Wall Street Journal,

1:22:41

again, its role in that episode

1:22:44

was shameful. But it goes on

1:22:46

to say. Mr. Trump's order is

1:22:48

now targeting the law firm for

1:22:51

representing clients Mr. Trump dislikes. He

1:22:53

is trying to defend a straight

1:22:55

Perkins Kui to intimidate elite law

1:22:58

firms from representing his opponents or

1:23:00

plaintiffs who challenge his policies. This

1:23:02

violates a bedrock principle of American

1:23:05

law, which is that even the

1:23:07

worst clients deserve representation. End quote.

1:23:09

And while people can differ on

1:23:12

the characterization of the individual lawyers,

1:23:14

and the law firm that's targeted,

1:23:16

I think there are very few

1:23:19

lawyers in the land who would

1:23:21

disagree with the principle that people

1:23:23

deserve representation and their choice of

1:23:26

representation. So as we've discussed on

1:23:28

the podcast before, a temporary restraining

1:23:30

order is not the end of

1:23:33

the story. The plaintiffs here, the

1:23:35

law firm here, seeks first a

1:23:37

preliminary, an impermanent injunction of the

1:23:40

implementation of the order, remains to

1:23:42

be seen. if they will prevail

1:23:44

on that. Stay tuned. Well, that's

1:23:47

it for this episode of Stay

1:23:49

tuned. Thanks again to my guests,

1:23:51

Dennis Ross, Karim Sajadpur, and Ahmed

1:23:54

Fuad Alcatib. rate and review the

1:23:56

show on Apple podcasts or wherever

1:23:58

you listen. Every positive review helps

1:24:01

new listeners find the show. Send

1:24:03

me your questions about news, politics,

1:24:05

and justice. Tweet them to me

1:24:08

at Preet Barara with the hashtag

1:24:10

ask Preet. You can also now

1:24:12

reach me on Blue Sky or

1:24:15

you can call and leave me

1:24:17

a message at 833-9-7-3-8. That's 833-9-9

1:24:19

Preet or you can send an

1:24:22

email to letters at cafe.com. Stay

1:24:24

tuned is presented by CAFE and

1:24:26

the Vox Media Podcast Network. The

1:24:29

executive producer is Tamara Separ, the

1:24:31

technical director is David Tadashore, the

1:24:33

deputy editor is Saline Roar, the

1:24:36

editorial producers are Noah Asoulai and

1:24:38

Jake Kaplan. The associate producer is

1:24:40

Claudia Hernandez, and the cafe team

1:24:43

is Matthew Billy, Nat Wiener, and

1:24:45

Leanna Greenway. Our music is by

1:24:47

Andrew Dost. I'm your host, Preet

1:24:50

Barara. As always, stay tuned. Sometimes

1:24:52

a single performance can define an

1:24:54

artist's legacy. Think about Hendrix's fiery

1:24:57

woodstock national anthem or Biance's homecoming

1:24:59

at Coachella. Coming up on Switched

1:25:01

On Pop, we're exploring artists who've

1:25:04

had recent transformative live shows. First

1:25:06

is Missy Elliott, who recently put

1:25:08

on her first world tour where

1:25:11

she taught everybody to get the

1:25:13

freak on. And then there's her

1:25:15

collaborator Timblein who recently evolved from

1:25:18

Beatmaker to orchestra conductor at the

1:25:20

Songwriter Hall of Fame. And then

1:25:22

Lady Gaga, whose chromatic ball featured

1:25:24

a theatrical museum of brutality revealing

1:25:27

the darker side of Gagga's mayhem.

1:25:29

Listen to these live moments on

1:25:31

Switched on Pop, wherever you get

1:25:34

podcast. brought to you by defender.