0:07

This is One A. I'm Jen White. Well,

0:09

it happened. Just a few days ago, I

0:12

received an envelope in the mail

0:14

from an organization whose four-letter name

0:16

is probably familiar to you. It

0:19

contained an invitation to join a

0:21

special club that comes with certain

0:23

benefits and discounts. Not a social

0:26

club or a new type of

0:28

credit card. It was A-A-A-R-P. And

0:30

my feelings opening that letter were...

0:33

Let's just call them complex.

0:35

Now the average midlife

0:38

crisis, according to Hollywood,

0:40

looks like a man

0:42

buying a sports car

0:44

and dating a younger

0:46

woman. Uh, I think I

0:48

found him. There they are.

0:50

Kepasa Mutachos! Hey there, buddy. You

0:53

okay? Okay. I'm a new man. Oh,

0:55

Eleanor. Thank you so much for

0:57

the advice about shoving my feelings

0:59

down deep. I feel so much

1:02

better. It's like I'm surfing on

1:04

this wave of positivity.

1:06

Is that Janet? Oh, yeah. Have

1:09

you met my secretary? Jeanette? Or

1:11

it looks like a man bored

1:13

with his suburban life. My

1:16

name is Lester Burnham. This

1:18

is my neighborhood. This

1:20

is my street. This is my

1:23

life. I'm 42 years old.

1:25

In less than a year,

1:27

I'll be dead. But the

1:29

reality of what happens

1:31

during middle age

1:33

is much more

1:35

complicated. I have really enjoyed middle age

1:38

up to this point. I'm 51 years

1:40

old. And whenever I have a friend

1:42

who's approaching his or her 50th birthday,

1:44

I try and send a note of

1:47

encouragement to say you've got nothing to

1:49

fear. It's going to be great. I

1:51

think you're going to love it. At 62,

1:53

I think it's rather rude that my body

1:55

likes to let me know I'm old. While

1:58

I feel young and look younger than I

2:00

and my body reminds me

2:02

that I'm not as flexible,

2:04

not as much energy, even

2:06

though I work out with

2:09

sprints training and walking four

2:11

miles a day, I still have bad

2:13

bees, a sore back, and well,

2:15

I can just tell I'm old.

2:17

I'm turning 43 in just a

2:20

few days, and from the time

2:22

I hit 30 onward, I feel

2:25

like I just have it more

2:27

and more. together and surprise myself

2:29

how little I really care about

2:32

what teenage or early 20 me

2:34

would have thought anyway. So maybe

2:36

it's a little more realizing I'm

2:39

comfortable in my own skin. Thanks

2:41

for those messages. The average life

2:43

expectancy in the US is 76

2:46

years, which means most Americans will

2:48

be middle-aged at some point. Yet

2:50

the midlife period is historically under-researched.

2:52

What does Hollywood's narrative about midlife

2:54

get wrong? And who does it

2:57

leave out? And is it a

2:59

time to let go of the

3:01

glamorous tortured myth of a midlife

3:03

crisis to make room for more

3:06

honest stories about getting older? Joining

3:08

us for this discussion or expert

3:10

guests. who are or have been

3:12

middle-aged. Dr. Alicia Arbaye is an

3:15

associate professor of medicine at Johns

3:17

Hopkins University School of Medicine in

3:19

Baltimore. She's also an expert

3:21

in geriatric medicine. Dr. Arbaye,

3:23

it's great to have you. Thank you

3:25

for having me. Also with us is

3:28

Chip Conley. He's the author of Learning

3:30

to Love Midlife, 12 reasons why life

3:32

gets better with age. He's also the

3:34

founder of Modern Elder Academy. That's a

3:36

Midlife Wisdom School with dozens of chapters

3:38

around the world. Chip Welcome. Great to

3:40

be with you, thank. Ann Margie Lockman.

3:42

She's a professor of psychology at

3:45

Brandeis University in Waltham, Massachusetts.

3:47

She's also the director of

3:49

the Lifespan Development Lab at

3:51

the university. Professor Lockman, welcome.

3:54

Happy to be with you. And we want

3:56

to hear from you. If you're in your

3:58

40s, 50s, or 60s, how is your life...

4:00

changed with middle age? Has midlife

4:02

been what you expected? And

4:04

if not, how has it challenged

4:06

your expectations? Email us at 1A

4:09

at W-A-M-U.org. Now, Dr. Obare, let's

4:11

just start by defining midlife. What

4:14

age range constitutes middle

4:16

age? So I think the

4:18

answer is sort of, it

4:20

depends. It's probably somewhere between

4:22

40 and 60, but really

4:24

it's less about age, I

4:26

think, and more about the

4:28

confluence of circumstances that come

4:30

together, whether it's role changing,

4:32

our own physical health changing,

4:34

caring for aging parents, working

4:36

with our children. I think

4:38

it's more about when all

4:40

those things come together in

4:42

the larger context of our

4:44

lives than it is about.

4:46

a particular age and this

4:48

is so true also in

4:50

geriatric medicine. where people say, well,

4:53

when am I a geriatric person?

4:55

And that also depends when life

4:57

sort of changes and when health

4:59

begins to become the dominant narrative

5:01

in one's life. So I think

5:03

somewhere between 40 and 60 give

5:05

and take, depending on what your

5:08

life has been like this far

5:10

and what environment you've grown up

5:12

in. Professor Lockman, as our average

5:14

life expectancy changes, how

5:16

is the way we define? midlife

5:19

changed and when it happens, how

5:21

has that evolved? So

5:23

I agree that the 40s

5:25

and 50s are really the

5:28

heart of midlife. Although as

5:30

we're living longer, some people

5:32

think of themselves as middle-aged

5:34

up until they're 60s, 65.

5:37

And I also wanted to

5:39

add that. Midlife can also

5:41

really be tied to where you

5:43

are relative to other generations. So

5:45

if you're in the middle generation,

5:47

you're somebody who is working with

5:49

younger people and older people in

5:51

the family or the community or

5:53

at work. That really puts you

5:55

in what I would call middle

5:57

age because you're really the person.

5:59

who they look to for support and

6:02

advice. So being in midlife

6:04

really is not necessarily tied

6:06

to chronological age. It's also

6:08

your location among younger and

6:10

older people in society. Now,

6:12

Chip, I feel like we

6:14

can't talk about midlife without

6:16

discussing the so-called midlife crisis.

6:18

And this is an image

6:20

as we shared earlier that's

6:22

riddled throughout popular culture. What

6:24

do you think it is? How we've

6:26

got this this idea of the

6:29

midlife crisis, how do you think

6:31

we've come to define that? Yeah,

6:33

well, first of all, I'm so

6:35

honored to be with the professors

6:37

because I've read both of their

6:39

work and it influenced much of

6:41

what we've done at the Modern

6:43

Eldre Academy. I think that the

6:45

word crisis is. Why do we

6:47

have crisis just in midlife? We

6:49

have crises throughout our lives. So

6:52

I think it's clear that the

6:54

you curve of happiness research has

6:56

shown that 45 to 50 or

6:58

early 50s is a troublesome time,

7:00

maybe the lowest point of adult

7:02

satisfaction, although some of that's changing,

7:04

with younger people being and younger

7:06

adults being less happy. But I

7:08

actually think of my midlife as

7:10

not a crisis, but a crystallist.

7:13

And the reason I say that

7:15

is not just to be glib,

7:17

but to really say that it's

7:19

actually a time when a lot

7:21

of people feel a deep sense

7:23

of transformation. And they are shedding

7:25

something from the past and opening

7:27

themselves up to something new. Yes,

7:30

the core of early midlife, often

7:32

in one's 40s and maybe even

7:34

early 50s, it can be very

7:36

stressful because we've got a lot

7:38

of spinning plates going on. But

7:40

as we move into our 50s

7:42

and sometimes into our 60s, I

7:44

turn 64 this month and I

7:47

absolutely know that I'm still in

7:49

midlife, I do believe that we

7:51

actually see the upside of getting

7:53

older. Well, we got this message

7:55

from Chris in New York who

7:57

says is the so-called midlife crisis.

7:59

a normal developmental threshold related to

8:02

neurological and neurochemical changes that are

8:04

commonly experienced at this time of

8:06

life. And Dr. Abarhei, while the

8:09

term mid-life crisis may not accurately

8:11

capture what happens in mid-life, there

8:13

are physical and hormonal changes that

8:16

affect us as we approach middle

8:18

age. So how does our body

8:20

change at this time? Yeah,

8:22

and I think as I answer

8:25

that question, I'd also like to

8:27

add the idea that that midlife

8:29

is experienced differently by different populations,

8:32

by folks who have been historically

8:34

marginalized, by folks who may be

8:37

LGBTQ, and part of that I

8:39

think is because there is a

8:41

known fact that there's accelerated aging

8:44

in some of these historically minorities

8:46

population. So I just like to

8:49

bring that up as an important

8:51

point that what we may be

8:53

talking about as midlife may be

8:55

occurring earlier for some people. And

8:58

then to your question about how

9:00

the body changes. So it's so

9:02

interesting, really how we think of

9:04

aging is in several different ways.

9:07

It's more of an acute, when

9:09

we think of... abnormal or not

9:11

normal aging, we think of an

9:13

accumulation of toxins or toxic experiences

9:15

or stressors over a lifetime. And

9:18

so that, as I said, can

9:20

happen earlier or later in life.

9:22

But how that can end up

9:24

manifesting can be through weight gain,

9:26

through fatigue, through stress, through overwhelm.

9:28

It can be through kind of

9:30

aches and pains that we often

9:33

think of. But really, and even

9:35

through cognitive changes in terms of

9:37

not being able to think as

9:39

clearly or feel like you're in

9:41

a sort of fog. And we

9:43

know that COVID and other illnesses

9:45

can bring that for... sooner rather

9:48

than later and so that can

9:50

also confound whether we think we're

9:52

going through middle age or not

9:54

and then of course we should

9:56

talk about you know menopause is

9:58

an important experience that women go

10:00

through that can also stretch out

10:02

over many years and affect our

10:05

mood and our activity. Professor Lachman

10:07

briefly, what about some of the

10:09

cognitive changes that can happen

10:11

and the psychological changes that

10:14

can happen? Yes, so certainly there

10:16

are changes. Many of these changes,

10:18

both the physical ones that were

10:21

just discussed. as well as psychological

10:23

and cognitive ones, are relatively gradual.

10:25

But some of these things do

10:27

get recognized by people in their

10:30

40s as they're turning midlife. They'll

10:32

see very obvious changes, like needing

10:34

reading glasses, or you see a

10:36

few gray hairs, and it sort

10:39

of triggers this concerns about getting

10:41

older. But psychologically, actually, I think

10:43

of midlife is really one of

10:45

the peak periods of the life

10:47

course. Cognatively, you really have a

10:49

confluence of... both some things that are

10:52

going down but also things that are

10:54

going up and that creates a really

10:56

nice balance so that It is

10:58

true that there are aspects of cognition

11:01

such as memory, how quickly you process

11:03

information, your abstract reasoning, that are on

11:05

the way down, but they're certainly

11:07

not near the bottom. They're really still

11:10

doing quite well, but you might notice

11:12

it takes you longer to remember

11:14

something, for example. Well, let's pause

11:16

here for a moment. We're talking

11:19

about what we get wrong

11:21

about the so-called midlife crisis

11:23

with psychology professor Margie Lachman,

11:25

geriatric specialist Dr. Alicia Arbaha.

11:27

author of Learning to Love Midlife,

11:29

Chip Connolly, and we want your

11:32

midlife stories. Email us at 1A

11:34

at wamu.org. We'll be right back.

12:00

This is One A. I'm Jen White.

12:02

A quick update to share from Florida,

12:04

last night Hurricane Milton made landfall

12:06

near Siesta, south of Sarasota, as

12:08

a Category 3 storm. It then

12:11

weakened to a Category 1 as

12:13

he has since moved offshore. That's

12:15

according to the National Hurricane Center.

12:17

The storm dropped about 16 inches

12:19

of rain on St. Petersburg. Six

12:22

storm-related deaths have been confirmed. Powers

12:24

now being restored to more than 3

12:26

million in the state. And last night, wind

12:29

gusts of 100 miles per hour were

12:31

recorded near... Tampa. But Tampa avoided the

12:33

worst of the storm surge. President

12:35

Biden spoke to Florida's Governor Ron

12:37

DeSantis earlier today, according to a

12:40

White House spokesperson. DeSantis said crews

12:42

are still assessing damage and think

12:44

Biden for all the support from

12:46

the federal government. Earlier today, DeSantis

12:49

spoke to reporters. What we can

12:51

say is the storm was significant,

12:53

but thankfully this was not. the

12:55

worst case scenario. The storm did

12:58

weekend before landfall and the storm

13:00

surge as initially reported has not

13:02

been as significant overall as what

13:04

was observed for hurricane Helene. Right

13:07

now it looks like Sarasota County

13:09

had the most significant storm surge,

13:11

likely somewhere between 8 to 10

13:14

feet and remember with Helene we

13:16

had 15 to 20 feet up

13:18

in Taylor County. We also anticipate

13:20

that because of the amount of

13:22

water, you know, you may see

13:24

flooding happen not just now, but

13:27

in the subsequent days. But I

13:29

think everybody responded very quickly,

13:31

proud of everybody's hard work.

13:33

We got more work to

13:35

do, but we will absolutely

13:37

get through this. and PR will

13:39

have the latest on the

13:42

story throughout the day. Those

13:44

impacted are being asked to

13:46

follow all directions from local

13:48

officials. There's lots of information

13:51

about what help is available

13:53

at Florida disaster.org and there's

13:55

a state assistance information line

13:57

2 that numbers 1-800-3-4-5-7. We're

14:09

discussing one of the most under-researched

14:11

periods of life, midlife. With us

14:13

is Dr. Alicia Arbaha. She's an

14:15

associate professor of medicine at Johns

14:17

Hopkins University School of Medicine. She's

14:19

also an expert in geriatric medicine.

14:22

Also with this is Chip Conley.

14:24

He's the author of Learning to

14:26

Love Mint Life, 12 reasons why life

14:28

gets better with age. He's also the founder

14:30

of Modern Elder Academy. That's

14:32

a Midlife Wisdom School with dozens

14:35

of chapters around the world. And

14:37

Margie Lockman. She's a professor of

14:39

psychology at Brandeis University and the

14:41

director of the Lifespan Development Lab

14:43

at the university. And we want

14:45

to hear from you, if you're

14:47

in your 40s, 50s, 50s, or

14:49

60s, what's the hardest part of

14:51

Mint Life exciting. Email us at

14:53

1A at wamu.org. Tanya emails I'm

14:55

45 and live in a small

14:57

Kansas town. I started to glow

14:59

up around 38 and it just

15:01

keeps getting better. I carry myself

15:03

better, dress better for my body type

15:05

and comfort and definitely look prettier and

15:08

healthier and I've noticed this is true

15:10

for nearly every other woman my age

15:12

in town too. We'll keep saying your

15:14

stories our way. Now before the break

15:17

we were discussing some of the the

15:19

bodily changes that occur during... life and

15:21

Terry writes one word, Perry menopause. Actually

15:24

you might need a whole hour on

15:26

this and Terry I just want to

15:28

share, we did an hour. We spent

15:30

a whole hour talking about Perry menopause

15:33

and menopause. You can find it

15:35

at the what a.org. But Dr.

15:37

Abarhey just walk us through what's

15:39

happening in in the body during

15:41

that Perry menopause before you actually

15:43

hit menopause. Yeah, so it's

15:45

a long stretched out period that can

15:47

last several years and so it's not

15:50

like a one day you wake up

15:52

and you go, uh-oh, what's happening, although

15:54

it might feel like that for some

15:56

people. But yeah, it's a slower process

15:59

in which... Our menstrual cycles become

16:01

irregular. We may feel mood changes

16:03

as our hormones shift. And some

16:05

of the things we talked about

16:07

earlier, like fatigue and cognition could

16:09

be altered. The heart... part is

16:11

that there's always so much else

16:13

going on in life that it's

16:16

hard to tease out is that

16:18

what's going on or is it

16:20

that life is just happening and

16:22

so it's a really interesting interplay

16:24

between the environment and how we're

16:26

living our lives in the moment

16:28

and what's happening within our bodies

16:30

and the other thing I'll say

16:33

is that everyone's experience is so

16:35

heterogeneous or unique and that's certainly

16:37

true of older life if you've

16:40

seen one eight year old and

16:42

If you've seen one perimenopausal person,

16:45

you've probably just seen that one

16:47

perimenopausal person. So it's important to

16:49

honor that there's a diversity to

16:52

this experience. Chip, one of the

16:54

reasons you became interested in having

16:56

more transparent discussions about midlife is

16:59

because you watched many of your

17:01

male friends struggle in their

17:03

40s. What happened to your friendships

17:05

during that time? Well, yeah, I really

17:07

admire women because they are so much

17:10

better at... both juggling their various roles,

17:12

but also continuing to see friendship

17:14

as a practice, something that you

17:17

invest in. Whereas a lot of

17:19

men get very fixated on their

17:21

careers and maybe on their family

17:24

as a breadwinner, and excuse me

17:26

for sounding very traditional here, but

17:28

it happens a lot. And then

17:31

they let their friendships atrophy. And

17:33

when bad news comes to them,

17:35

particularly if it's their career, they

17:38

don't really have a support network.

17:40

And what happened to me in

17:42

my late 40s during the Great

17:44

Recession is I lost five male

17:46

friends to suicide ages 42 to

17:48

52. So all of them in

17:51

midlife, and three of the five

17:53

of them, you know, we could

17:55

specifically focus on the fact that

17:57

it was their business, they were

17:59

entrepreneurs. entrepreneurs went under. And so

18:02

what I felt in creating

18:04

MEA, the World's for Smith Life

18:06

Wisdom School, a modern elder academy,

18:08

was there's a need for us

18:10

to create programs that help people

18:12

to feel that support and to

18:14

help people in midlife. understand how

18:17

to navigate the natural transitions that

18:19

happen in midlife and the average

18:21

age of the people who comes

18:23

about 54. So it's, you know,

18:25

solidly right there in midlife. I

18:27

want to mention we did a

18:29

show a couple of years ago about

18:31

male friendships and it was based on

18:34

some reporting that show the percentage of

18:36

men with at least six close friends

18:38

had fallen by half since 1990

18:40

and... only one in five single

18:43

men said or reported that he

18:45

had zero close friends. And we

18:47

had this really fascinating discussion about

18:49

male friendships, how to maintain them,

18:52

how to build them. You can

18:54

find that conversation at the 1A.org.

18:56

But Professor Lockman, what do we

18:58

know about what can happen to

19:00

our mental health in middle age?

19:03

Not just because there are things

19:05

changing with their bodies, but because

19:07

life may be changing in

19:09

significant ways. Yes, midlife can be

19:11

a very stressful period. There's no doubt

19:14

about it. There's a lot of people

19:16

who are depending on people in midlife,

19:18

and that can cause a lot of

19:21

stress. And there's only so much time

19:23

in the day, and I think a

19:25

lot of people in midlife do feel

19:28

those pressures and stresses. But at the

19:30

same time, there's a lot of positive

19:32

psychological changes that are happening in midlife.

19:35

So in many ways, middle-age adults are

19:37

really equipped to handle the extra burdens

19:39

and... Stresses that occur in midlife.

19:41

So knowledge and experience and decision-making

19:43

are all really peaking in midlife.

19:46

Things like self-confidence, a sense of

19:48

mastery based on all of your

19:50

experience can really reach a peak

19:52

in midlife. And so those in

19:54

midlife do have some of the

19:56

psychological resources at their disposal to

19:58

handle some of the... extra burdens

20:00

and stresses that occur. But that

20:03

said, we really do need to

20:05

pay attention to providing support for

20:07

people in middle age because there

20:09

are many demands on them. And

20:12

social relationships are very important, as

20:14

was just said, for both men

20:16

and for women. And often there's

20:19

not enough time to nurture your

20:21

social relationships in midlife because you're

20:23

so burdened with all the responsibilities

20:25

that you have both with your

20:28

family and it were. I want to

20:30

just remind everyone that if you or

20:32

someone you know is struggling with mental

20:34

health issues at any age, you

20:36

can always call the suicide and

20:38

crisis number at 988. It's available

20:40

24 hours a day, seven days

20:42

a week. Again, that number is

20:44

988. We're hearing from so many

20:46

of you, Robbie Emel's middle age

20:48

is so confusing. I'm 72 and

20:50

still waiting for it to begin.

20:52

Okay, I am a tiny bit

20:54

slower, but really nothing else has

20:56

changed in my life. My attitude

20:58

remains optimistic, my days remain busy,

21:00

I remain interested, and some people

21:03

even say, I'm interesting. I think

21:05

that whole middle-age thing can really

21:07

bring a guy down, don't give

21:10

in. A study between 2002 and

21:12

2020 suggests middle-age Americans feel significantly

21:14

lonelier. than their European counterparts.

21:16

That's according to the American

21:18

Psychological Association. Professor Lockman, give

21:21

us a little more insight

21:23

into what societal and relational

21:25

changes tend to happen during

21:27

midlife that can lead to

21:29

that loneliness. Yes, so social

21:31

relationships are really important for your

21:33

health physical health and mental health

21:35

And in some ways midlife should

21:37

be a period where you are

21:40

not lonely because you have so

21:42

many roles and there's so many

21:44

people who you're interacting with both

21:46

in the community at home and

21:48

work But yet there are people

21:50

in midlife who do feel lonely.

21:52

So it's loneliness is not necessarily

21:55

tied to how many people you

21:57

know or how many people you

21:59

interact with And so that is

22:01

an issue that is of importance,

22:03

but there was actually another recent

22:05

study. that showed that midlife actually

22:07

was lowest in terms of loneliness

22:09

compared to those who were younger

22:11

and older. So there's a lot

22:13

of mixed reports in terms of

22:15

loneliness, but in general people have

22:17

become more lonely as a surgeon

22:19

general has shown us in some

22:21

of his recent initiatives. So in

22:23

general people are more lonely and

22:25

I think a lot of that

22:27

just has to do with how

22:29

much time we have to spend

22:31

on so many other things that

22:33

we don't necessarily have as much

22:35

time to. nurture and enrich our

22:37

social relationships. Well and Chip, how

22:39

much of your work at Modern

22:41

Elder Academy is about creating a

22:43

sense of community for those who

22:45

may not feel deeply connected to

22:47

others? It's interesting, Jen. A lot

22:49

of the people who come are

22:51

coming because they're going through some

22:53

kind of transition, and there's a

22:55

lot of transitions happening in what

22:57

academics call middle essence. We know

22:59

all the transitions of adolescents, but

23:01

middle essence has a lot as

23:03

well. So they come for the

23:05

transitions and cultivating purpose and learning

23:07

how to own their wisdom. But

23:09

what we found is that the

23:11

number one reason they come back

23:13

again, and many people do, because

23:15

we have two campuses. one in

23:17

Santa Fe, New Mexico, and one

23:19

in Baja in Mexico on the

23:21

beach, is because of the relationships.

23:23

And that's why I mentioned friendship

23:25

as a practice. We have 58

23:27

regional chapters around the world. And

23:29

what people really are looking for

23:31

is not just. quantity of friends,

23:33

but it's quality and depth of

23:35

conversation. And I think that's what

23:37

we're, you know, the fine art

23:39

of a conversation is something we

23:41

were so maybe good at 50

23:43

years ago or 100 years ago.

23:45

And it, because we're so addicted

23:47

to our devices these days, people

23:49

have lost some of the ability

23:51

to have a thoughtful, interesting conversation

23:54

that is not agitated. or partisan

23:56

in some way. And so that's

23:58

part of the reason people come

24:00

back and are part of our

24:02

regional chapters. But I like to

24:04

say to people, if you think

24:06

of friendship as a practice, you

24:08

will invest in it like you

24:10

do, a meditation practice or playing

24:12

golf or whatever it is that

24:14

you're trying to get better at.

24:16

We're talking to Chip Conley. He's

24:18

author of Learning to Love Midlife.

24:20

Also with us, psychology professor Margie

24:22

Lachman and geriatric specialist, Dr. Alicia

24:24

Arbaha. And we're hearing from you,

24:26

Janice writes, my 50s were a

24:28

time of unusual euphoria and increased

24:30

empathy for all people and causes.

24:32

It was also incredibly freeing to

24:34

be past the monthly hormonal cycle.

24:36

Keep sending your thoughts our way.

24:38

Email us at 1A at WAMU.org.

24:40

I'm Jen White. You're listening. to

24:42

one A. Dr. Abaha'i, one of

24:44

the biggest issues you see among

24:46

your patients is that they haven't

24:48

established long-term care relationships with primary

24:50

care doctors or therapists so when

24:52

they reach middle-age the care isn't

24:54

in place in the way they

24:56

may need it. So how how

24:58

can we build a care network

25:00

before we reach middle-age? I think

25:02

this is so important for so

25:04

many reasons and often... when we're

25:06

younger than middle age, our primary

25:08

care providers are maybe it's like

25:10

a gynecologist or OBGYN and for

25:12

men, they may not have one

25:14

at all. And so you don't

25:16

start to really think about those

25:18

things until either you have your

25:20

own health crisis or you start

25:22

to see your loved ones have

25:24

those crises and say, wait, what

25:26

would I do in this situation?

25:28

I don't have someone. So I

25:30

think some ways to start having

25:32

that nice longitudinal relationship with a

25:34

health care provider is to maybe

25:36

You've kind of interviewed them by

25:38

work if you're attending those appointments,

25:40

or if you're just not sure

25:42

where to start, start with your

25:44

internal medicine or family medicine health

25:46

care provider, and you're not quite

25:48

too young to get a geriatrician

25:50

if you're over the age of

25:52

55. and geriatrics. As scary as

25:54

it might sound to come and

25:56

see a geriatrician, we're all about

25:58

helping you stay as independent and

26:00

healthy as possible as you're getting

26:02

older. So I don't be afraid

26:04

to come find one of us

26:06

as well. We're all trained in

26:08

internal medicine and geriatrics and family

26:10

medicine as well. So just very

26:12

important I think to start. to

26:14

think about as mental health as

26:16

we've been hearing, it's sometimes not

26:18

until our 40s or 50s that

26:20

we have the skills and the

26:22

ability to integrate our childhood experiences

26:24

and our young adult experiences. And

26:26

so we're going to need support

26:28

when those things start to come

26:30

up. And so it's important to

26:32

establish that. great relationship with a

26:34

therapist, if you have access to

26:36

one, or other source of support,

26:38

whether it be through a faith

26:40

community or other type of support,

26:42

because that will help as well.

26:44

The health we have in middle

26:46

age directly predicts the health we

26:48

have in older age, and so

26:50

it's so important to take care

26:52

of things early. Chip, as we've

26:54

discussed, your 40s were an extremely

26:56

difficult period in your life, but

26:58

your 50s were an entirely different

27:00

experience. What changed? Yeah, I wasn't

27:02

expecting it because I think one

27:04

of the challenges and maybe the

27:06

reason the word crisis is applied

27:09

is that many of the Transitions

27:11

that people are going through in

27:13

their 40s They worry that they're

27:15

gonna last forever the sandwich generation

27:17

and Perry menopause and possibly feeling

27:19

irrelevant at work and maybe divorce

27:21

or you know your body not

27:23

looking like it used to For

27:25

me, I got to my 50s

27:27

and I was sort of not

27:29

sure if I was just going

27:31

to continue to feel worse and

27:33

worse. And then I felt that,

27:35

you know, comfort. Like, you know,

27:37

I just as I got comfortable

27:39

in my own skin, it started

27:41

to sag. And I was okay

27:43

with that. It was like, you

27:45

know what? I'm not worried so

27:47

much about what other people think

27:49

about me. I started to realize

27:51

that, you know, you know, my

27:53

body, I'm more focused on the

27:55

long-term maintenance than the short. term

27:57

vanity and I got curious about

27:59

some things and then next thing

28:01

out of the blue I was

28:03

asked by the three young founders

28:05

of Airbnb 12 years ago to

28:07

come in and be their modern

28:09

elder what they called someone who's

28:11

as curious as there were wise

28:13

and I was 52 and all

28:15

of a sudden I saw that

28:17

wow I had some relevance and

28:19

I had some wisdom to offer

28:21

these younger people and I did

28:23

that for seven and a half

28:25

years and it was beautiful. Well,

28:27

we're discussing this so-called midlife crisis

28:29

and unpacking what actually happened in

28:31

midlife. We're here with Chip Conley.

28:33

He's the author of Learning to

28:35

Love Midlife. Margie Lachman, she's a

28:37

psychology professor, and geriatric specialist, Dr.

28:39

Alicia Arbaha'i. And we're hearing from

28:41

so many of you sharing emails,

28:43

midlife is a time for deciding

28:45

what you want the rest of

28:47

your life to be. You find

28:49

yourself thinking, oh, I never want

28:51

to do that again, and wow,

28:53

I would really like to learn

28:55

or do such and such. In

28:57

my case, I made the difficult

28:59

decision to change churches. I have

29:01

been unhappy for many years. My

29:03

husband did not join me. But

29:05

I reached a point where it

29:07

where it. just necessary. Midlife is

29:09

a time for truth. Keep sharing

29:11

your stories with us. Email us

29:13

at 1A at wamu.org and we'll

29:15

be right back. Now

29:55

let's get back to our discussion

29:57

about the so-called midlife crisis and

29:59

what actual happens when we become

30:01

middle-aged. We're here with Dr. Alicia

30:03

Arbache. She's an associate professor of

30:06

medicine at the Johns Hopkins University

30:08

School of Medicine. She's also an

30:10

expert in geriatric medicine. And Chip

30:12

Conley, he's the author of Learning

30:14

to Love Midlife, 12 reasons why

30:16

life gets better with age. He's

30:18

also the founder of Modern Elder

30:20

Academy, that's a midlife wisdom school

30:22

with dozens of chapters around the

30:24

world, and Margie Lockman. She's a

30:26

professor of psychology at Brandeis University,

30:29

and the director of the Lifespan

30:31

Development. lab at the university. And

30:33

let's go to our inbox. I

30:35

am almost to my mid-fifties and

30:37

what I struggle with most during

30:39

this time is really the meaning

30:41

of life. Sometimes I'm wondering what

30:43

the heck is even the point.

30:45

We just work and work and

30:47

that's just something I've really been

30:49

struggling with so I'm hoping to

30:52

hear what other colors have to

30:54

say about this. especially those that

30:56

are currently in midlife and those

30:58

that are past midlife and what

31:00

suggestions they have. Janea, thanks for

31:02

that message. Well, I want to

31:04

go to this that we got

31:06

from Gina, since you wanted to

31:08

hear what other people are saying,

31:10

Janea. Gina writes, I had a

31:12

cranial aneurysm and stroke at age

31:15

46. I did not have a

31:17

midlife crisis. I went directly to

31:19

old age having to use a

31:21

walker to have an adapted car

31:23

and do many tasks differently. My

31:25

advice to someone having a midlife

31:27

crisis is to enjoy the life

31:29

you have now. Adjust your definition

31:31

of normal and find ways to

31:33

change anything that prevents you from

31:35

doing what you want. And if

31:38

you don't know what you want,

31:40

be thankful that you have choices.

31:42

Professor Lachman, that came from a

31:44

listener in our audience, but any

31:46

other guidance for Jayna? Yes. Well,

31:48

I mean, there are many people

31:50

who unfortunately experience curveballs in midlife,

31:52

such as she described. And it's

31:54

not easy to deal with it.

31:56

It seems like she has really

31:58

a good perspective, and I think

32:01

her... advice to enjoy midlife is

32:03

really a great idea for people

32:05

to think about because when you

32:07

get to the middle of anything,

32:09

whether it's life or the middle

32:11

of the semester as I'm a

32:13

professor. It's a natural time for

32:15

reflection, looking back on where you've

32:17

been and thinking about where you're

32:19

going. And so it can be

32:21

a period where you think about

32:24

making changes. Maybe you decide you're

32:26

not happy with how things are

32:28

going and it's okay to change.

32:30

And so along the theme we're

32:32

talking about, I don't necessarily see

32:34

that as a crisis if people

32:36

make a change. You might make

32:38

small tweaks, but even if you

32:40

make some major changes in your

32:42

life. That can actually be a

32:44

growth experience and something that is

32:47

a positive in terms of how

32:49

things ultimately will turn out. And

32:51

I think also when people get

32:53

to midlife, for some reason they

32:55

think that time is running out.

32:57

There's this sense that there's not

32:59

much time left to do things,

33:01

but in fact, you have half

33:03

your life left. So think about

33:05

it as there's plenty of time

33:07

left to do things. You don't

33:10

have to do everything at once.

33:12

And so looking at it as

33:14

an example. expanse of time remaining

33:16

in your life for doing other

33:18

things that you would like to

33:20

do and to make changes. Yeah,

33:22

I'll tell you, Jane, I'm in

33:24

response to your message. I've, for

33:26

the first time in my life,

33:28

since I was maybe eight years

33:30

old, I've started journaling and for

33:33

me, my mind always moved too

33:35

quickly to do a written journal,

33:37

but I found an app where

33:39

I can just record voice memos.

33:41

And that's been in. incredibly therapeutic

33:43

to just out loud process some

33:45

of what I'm working through as

33:47

I'm just a few weeks away

33:49

from 50 and it's been a

33:51

really useful tool and I think

33:53

there's something about talking about it

33:56

out loud just to myself. I

33:58

don't know. Maybe that would be

34:00

helpful for you, for you too.

34:02

Just a thought. Well, Dr. Abahai,

34:04

you're 48, and you're currently experiencing

34:06

some of the midlife changes. We've

34:08

been discussing, what has this period

34:10

been like for you personally? Yeah,

34:12

49 actually so I'll be 50

34:14

like next in a few months

34:16

It's it's so interesting I've been

34:19

reflecting on a lot of what

34:21

people have been saying and and

34:23

in caring for my own patients

34:25

when I see them go through

34:27

It's it's I'm just learning a

34:29

lot from the experience I think

34:31

the two words that that are

34:33

sort of sitting with me as

34:35

I go through this time is

34:37

resilience and reflection You've talked about

34:39

reflection just now with your comment

34:42

around journaling, which I so appreciate

34:44

in my own time in my

34:46

own work with medical students and

34:48

others, I really encourage reflective practice

34:50

as a way to just get

34:52

to know oneself and what one's

34:54

thinking and feeling. And to go

34:56

back to it and see what

34:58

kind of growth has occurred. So

35:00

I'm working on my own set

35:02

of reflective practices. And then in

35:05

terms of the resilient side of

35:07

things, as these curveballs hit, that

35:09

our colleagues have talked about here,

35:11

I think about, well, how can

35:13

I reframe and recover from the

35:15

different types of experiences that have

35:17

come on? Each of my parents

35:19

has been diagnosed with very serious

35:21

illness. I myself, I'm going through.

35:23

my own illness journey or I

35:25

have and have come out on

35:28

the other side. And so when

35:30

I think about that, I look

35:32

back and think, wow, this is

35:34

a time of resilience and growth.

35:36

I wouldn't have wanted all of

35:38

these lessons necessarily, but it's life,

35:40

right? And it can teach us,

35:42

I'm reflecting on how it's teaching

35:44

me to be a more compassionate

35:46

and kind individual when I see

35:48

other people going through their journeys

35:51

and to give people a bit

35:53

of grace. as well as first

35:55

giving myself a bit of grace

35:57

through this process. And I've only

35:59

started to think about that recently.

36:01

So you're technically considered to be

36:03

at the tail end of mint

36:05

life, but how are you looking

36:07

back on the beginning of this

36:09

period as you begin to leave

36:11

it behind? Yeah, I think it

36:14

goes further than some of my

36:16

colleagues, I think. I actually do

36:18

think... midlife can go into your

36:20

early 70s. But for me, I

36:22

would just say that the beauty

36:24

of recognizing that the early midlife

36:26

is when you're almost like the

36:28

caterpillar eating and consuming and the

36:30

core of midlife, which might be

36:32

your 50s, is almost like the

36:34

crystallist. It's when you're really shifting

36:37

all things, you're editing things, you're

36:39

metamorphizing what's important to you. And

36:41

Richard Ror, who's on our faculty,

36:43

a very famous Christian mystic, talks

36:45

about the fact that our primary

36:47

operating system in our 50s, and

36:49

for me, I found this to

36:51

be the case, moves from our

36:53

ego to our soul. For the

36:55

caller who left the voicemail, I'd

36:57

say she should probably read his

36:59

book, which is called Falling Upward.

37:02

It's spirituality for the two halves

37:04

of life. And then later midlife,

37:06

which I believe I'm in now.

37:08

is a time where you make

37:10

sense of things. You know, our

37:12

painful life lessons are the raw

37:14

material for our future wisdom. And

37:16

this is an era for us

37:18

to be generative. Eric Erickson's word

37:20

to describe the idea of giving

37:22

back to younger generations. So I'm

37:25

feeling very much in the generative

37:27

stage, but I do know that

37:29

my late 40s, I was very

37:31

much in the confusion phase and

37:33

the feeling stuck phase. Well, we

37:35

got this message from Chris who

37:37

says, I love the show topic

37:39

today. I'm a postmenopausal woman age

37:41

57. I've embraced many things about

37:43

my age, including letting the silver

37:45

hair rock. I hear you. I

37:48

like who I am more today

37:50

than ever. I just wish I

37:52

wasn't so weary of body mind

37:54

and spirit. Energy or lack thereof

37:56

is a huge issue, even with

37:58

a healthy lifestyle. It's frustrating to

38:00

find yourself in a much more

38:02

positive place on so many levels,

38:04

but... physically deteriorating. Seems unfair somehow.

38:06

Please keep up this research. Professor

38:08

Lockman, you're a researcher for a

38:11

30-year study called Midlife in the

38:13

United States and looks at the

38:15

biomedical, the psychological, and social factors

38:17

that shape midlife. What are we

38:19

still learning about this period? Yes.

38:21

Well, it's really a fascinating period.

38:23

It was for a very long

38:25

time, people in my field in

38:27

lifespan psychology studied younger adults and

38:29

older adults, and there was a

38:31

huge gap in the middle. We

38:34

really didn't know much about it.

38:36

And so we are learning a

38:38

lot about this period. And it

38:40

does change over time in terms

38:42

of what midlife is like as

38:44

people are living longer and parents

38:46

are living longer. But one of

38:48

the things that I'm glad Chip

38:50

brought this up is this notion

38:52

of generativity. which is really caring

38:54

and concerned for younger generations, and

38:57

also for leaving your mark on

38:59

the world. So midlife is really

39:01

a period where not only are

39:03

you concerned with your own development,

39:05

but also focus quite a bit

39:07

on the development of those who

39:09

are younger. And mentoring becomes a

39:11

really, I think, important and satisfying

39:13

aspect of midlife. And in our

39:15

research, we find that generativity does

39:17

really peak around age 50. It's

39:20

really a period where people start

39:22

to turn to focus on other

39:24

people and share their knowledge and

39:26

experience with people who are wanting

39:28

to learn and developing. And so

39:30

that's one of the things that

39:32

I think is important that we've

39:34

learned. We're talking to psychology professor

39:36

Margie Lachman, geriatric specialist Dr. Alicia

39:38

Arbaha'a, and author of Learning to

39:40

Love Midlife, Chip Conley. I'm Jen

39:43

White. You're listening to One A.

39:46

We got this question from Paul

39:48

who says, I'm 62. As things

39:50

break down and our abilities in

39:52

health may subtly or abruptly change,

39:54

how do we know if our

39:56

decline is normal? Dr. Abaha, what

39:58

can you tell us? Love that.

40:00

question. So it is not normal

40:02

to lose memory at rates that

40:04

are, for example, causing you impairments

40:06

in your daily life. It is

40:08

not normal to have, you know,

40:10

sudden changes in our health and

40:12

well-being. And so I think this

40:14

question is important. And I think

40:16

that's why having that long term

40:18

or setting it up now, relationship

40:20

with a health care provider and

40:22

with other therapists and counselors is

40:24

important because then you can start

40:26

to see and talk about these

40:28

issues with people who either have

40:30

known you for a while or

40:32

are getting to know you now

40:34

to bring those up. So I

40:36

think if there is a question

40:38

or concern about a feeling, a

40:40

mood, a symptom, go to your

40:42

health care provider and I know

40:44

that's a whole separate challenge in

40:46

action. great health care, but it's

40:48

just so important to begin to

40:50

find that now because a lot

40:52

of the things that we think

40:54

of as maybe part of normal

40:56

aging actually aren't and need to

40:58

be checked out and evaluated. And

41:01

then, you know, if there isn't

41:03

anything that comes up there, then

41:05

we can start to turn to

41:07

thinking about what else in life

41:09

could be affecting what that person

41:11

is experiencing. So definitely don't go

41:13

through things alone and assume it's

41:15

just part of normal aging. not

41:17

sure. We also got this from

41:19

Debra who says this is a

41:21

great discussion on midlife. Thanks for

41:23

having it. I agree with the

41:25

professors who said that plenty of

41:27

people in their early 60s consider

41:29

themselves middle-aged. I'm one. At 64

41:31

I totally see myself as middle-aged.

41:33

One reason I totally see myself

41:35

as still middle-aged. One reason I'm

41:37

very active in my local tennis

41:39

leagues playing as much as four

41:41

or five times per week in

41:43

the outdoor season. Activity is key.

41:45

An activity that's combined with social

41:47

interaction is even better. Dancing, team,

41:49

sports, pickleball, balance, anything that can

41:51

involve activity plus. people I think

41:53

is wonderful and then focusing on

41:55

balance and flexibility as we get

41:57

older is even more key. Well

41:59

let's go to one more voice

42:01

message. I am 43 I'm sorry

42:03

I'm 42 I'll be 43 in

42:05

20 days and if I can

42:07

be frank I don't feel like

42:09

I'm in my midpoint. I still

42:11

feel like I'm in my 20s

42:13

I have a nine-month-old baby and

42:15

a five-year-old and life it just

42:17

seems not figured out I don't

42:19

feel like I'm an adult I

42:21

don't feel like I was where

42:23

my parents were when they were

42:25

in their 40s I still feel

42:28

like I'm in my 20s trying

42:30

to figure life out Stephanie thanks

42:32

for that message and I just

42:34

want to echo that I think

42:36

there's this idea that once you

42:38

reach a certain age you know

42:40

more about the world and yourself

42:42

but that isn't I don't think

42:44

that's always true as I'm right

42:46

around the corner from 50 just

42:48

weeks away, and in so many

42:50

ways I feel more uncertain now.

42:52

And I'm curious how much of

42:54

this may be about the fact

42:56

that we don't discuss middle age

42:58

until we reach middle age. And

43:00

Chip, how can we embrace the

43:02

reality of this period of life

43:04

and all its complexity earlier in

43:06

life so we can better prepare

43:08

for it? Well, I really appreciate

43:10

Stephanie's message there because we have

43:12

such variability in terms of when

43:14

we have life stages. Some people

43:16

don't get married till their 40s

43:18

and they don't have their kids

43:20

to late 40s or they adopt

43:22

kids in their 50s. And so,

43:24

you know, there's no one-size-fits-all here.

43:26

What's been very fascinating to me

43:28

at the Modern Elder Academy, a

43:30

place that's dedicated to midlife. is

43:32

that 75% of the people who

43:34

come are 45 to 65. But

43:36

we've had people as young as

43:38

25 and as old as 91

43:40

come to our programs in Mexico,

43:42

in Baja, on the beach, and

43:44

then in Santa Fe. And so

43:46

these week-long programs have attracted such

43:48

a varied collection. The younger people

43:50

are often coming because they hear

43:52

we're a midlife wisdom school, and

43:54

number one, they want to learn

43:57

more about wisdom. And number two

43:59

is they want to connect with

44:01

older people who they can learn

44:03

from. The people who are coming

44:05

in their 80s and 90s are

44:07

often coming because they want to

44:09

become a beginner over and over

44:11

again. They realize that being curious

44:13

and open to new experiences is

44:15

positively correlated with living a good

44:17

life. So I think the main

44:19

summary here is. Don't peg yourself

44:21

based upon your age as being

44:23

defined by anything that any of

44:25

us are saying, because it's really

44:27

about your life stage more than

44:29

it is your age. Well, we'll

44:31

have to leave the conversation there

44:33

for now. That's Chip Conley. He's

44:35

the author of Learning to Love

44:37

Midlife. Twelve reasons why life gets

44:39

better with age. She's also founder

44:41

of the Modern Elder Academy. That's

44:43

a Midlife Wisdom School with dozens

44:45

of chapters around the world. Also,

44:47

Margie Lachman. She's a professor of

44:49

psychology at Brandeis University in Waltham,

44:51

Massachusetts. She's also the director of

44:53

the Lifespan Development Lab at the

44:55

Lifespan Development Lab. School of Medicine

44:57

in Baltimore. She's also an expert

44:59

in geriatric medicine. Thanks to you

45:01

all. And we'll end on a

45:03

word of wisdom from one of

45:05

you. Alice and emails, I feel

45:07

like midlife is about owning your

45:09

story. My story is dramatic, but

45:11

probably not actually more so than

45:13

anyone else's story. I was diagnosed

45:15

with multiple sclerosis when I was

45:17

41. COVID changed the world, and

45:19

I chose to leave a nearly

45:21

15-year job I loved dearly at

45:23

50 because the pandemic laid bare

45:26

many problems. I started another job

45:28

at 51, working with a world-class

45:30

professional symphony. If this is Middle

45:32

A. I don't want any other

45:34

age. Today's producer was Haley Blassing

45:36

Game. This program comes to you

45:38

from WAMU, part of American University

45:40

in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm

45:42

Jen White, Nila Boudou, will host

45:44

The Round Up Tomorrow, and Todd

45:46

will be with you next week

45:48

as a... A us

45:50

take the show

45:52

to Mexico City

45:54

for a special

45:56

project, so make

45:58

sure you tune

46:00

in. make Thanks for

46:02

listening. in. I'll

46:04

talk more soon. This

46:06

is soon. This is 1A.