0:12

This is Amy Hall and Greg

0:14

Kokel, and you're listening to Stand to

0:16

Reasons, hashtag STR Ask podcast. All

0:19

right, Greg, we have

0:21

some questions about how

0:23

you do things. So

0:26

this first one comes from Tom.

0:28

All right. Greg referenced reading

0:30

Atomic Habits to start the year.

0:32

What are his reflections from the

0:34

book, particularly from a biblical perspective?

0:37

How do these secular books assist

0:39

our Christian walk? All right, just

0:41

a point of information here. I didn't say

0:43

I read it. I said I bought it, or

0:45

actually got it as a gift at Christmas. I'd asked

0:47

for it. And I've surveyed the book. I've done

0:49

a pre -read on it, and there's a lot of

0:51

good stuff in there. But I need to

0:54

go back and do a more careful look. I've

0:56

just been too busy. With

0:58

other reading demands that

1:00

I haven't gone back to

1:02

that one. But

1:05

I can speak more to the

1:07

second issue, and that is I

1:09

have no reason to be suspicious

1:11

of books written by non -Christians

1:13

that can give me advice about

1:15

how to live life. I mean,

1:17

people have all kinds of wisdom. that

1:19

they learned from experience that

1:22

I could benefit from. You know,

1:24

it's interesting that there is

1:26

an ancient text called the Wisdom

1:28

of the Amenemope, okay? Or maybe

1:30

it's called the Wisdom Literature of

1:32

the Amenemope. And these were proverbs

1:34

and stuff from the ancient Near

1:36

East. Turns out, a lot of

1:38

those same proverbs, word for word,

1:41

end up in the book of

1:43

Proverbs. Now, some people

1:45

can speculate about the literary

1:47

relationship, who wrote it down first,

1:49

but that's not actually relevant.

1:51

What's relevant is whether it's sound

1:53

as a wise saying. And

1:55

if it turned out that Solomon...

2:03

You know, pick this up. A

2:06

stitch in time saves nine.

2:08

That's, what's his name? Benjamin Franklin.

2:10

You know, it's still smart. A penny

2:12

saved is a penny earned or

2:15

whatever. That's good stuff. And we can

2:17

learn from other people who have

2:19

the ability to reflect on the nature

2:21

of the world and draw conclusions

2:23

about life that are sound. In

2:25

fact, even in the

2:28

Proverbs, it says, look at

2:30

the ant, O sluggard. And

2:32

then he develops the idea. So he's

2:34

talking to a lazy guy, and he

2:37

said, just look at nature. Can't you

2:39

learn something about effective living by looking

2:41

at ants and locusts that go out

2:43

in ranks? Or, you

2:45

know, lizards that live in

2:47

palaces of kings? So there

2:50

is a, you know, a

2:52

very robust capability that non -Christians

2:54

have of coming up with...

2:56

smart stuff that we can

2:58

benefit from in a whole

3:01

bunch of different areas, all

3:03

right? So I have

3:05

no—what's the word I'm looking

3:07

for ?—reservations about reading secular

3:09

stuff when it comes

3:12

to this kind of thing.

3:14

Now, sometimes they say

3:16

silly stuff. So I might

3:18

be reading a book

3:20

about diet, and they say,

3:22

well, ancient man did

3:24

thus and so. There's

3:26

some merit in that before all these

3:29

foods were processed. And they evolved to

3:31

do it this way. I said, well,

3:33

that's stupid. So I just ignore that.

3:35

But that there's a pattern here that

3:37

might be useful for me in diet.

3:39

I can weigh the merits and see

3:41

whether it's good or not. So I,

3:43

you know, I learn a lot from

3:46

secular sources. And

3:48

I'm not concerned about

3:50

it unless there is

3:52

a... whatever

3:54

said is invades against a

3:57

Christian worldview in some sense. It

3:59

advances a false idea about

4:01

reality. But I'll know that because

4:03

I have a fairly robust

4:05

understanding of a Christian worldview, and

4:07

I can recognize that when

4:09

it comes down the pike. So

4:12

you mentioned sometimes they can

4:14

have good advice about practical ways

4:16

to do things, even if

4:18

their explanation of why it works

4:20

is incorrect. Exactly, exactly, yeah. I

4:23

think there are two things that you

4:25

can look out for. If you're looking for

4:27

good advice, there are two things the

4:29

person has to get right. So the closer,

4:31

if they're not Christians, the closer they

4:33

are to getting those two things right, the

4:35

better the advice is going to be.

4:38

And the first thing is human nature. They

4:40

have to understand that

4:42

we are fallen. They have

4:45

to understand that we

4:47

tend towards disorder and badness.

4:49

Rebellion, right. Yes. They

4:51

have to understand that. And secondly, they

4:53

have to understand what's good. So their

4:55

goals have to be the same as

4:57

our goals would be as Christian. So

4:59

if they understand who we are and

5:01

what is good for us to be

5:04

working towards, then their advice is going

5:06

to be better than if they start

5:08

to move away from those things. Because

5:10

both of those things affect how we

5:12

do things. Yeah. Sometimes, though, the good...

5:14

not a moral good, it's a utility.

5:16

And so, and therefore the moral quality

5:18

doesn't really come into play. So three

5:20

days ago, I changed the bulb, the

5:22

blinker in the tail of my F

5:24

-150. Well, I don't know how to

5:26

do that. I'd done it before, but

5:28

I forgot. So I went online and

5:30

there it was. I just Googled it

5:32

and the guy, you know, three minute

5:34

video and there's how to do it.

5:36

So I don't know if he's a

5:38

Christian or not, but there was a

5:40

utility about how to fix this thing.

5:42

that had no moral ramifications, here's the

5:44

best way to get it done. And

5:47

I actually watched two videos because the first one

5:49

had an ambiguity, and I think I could do it

5:51

that way. The second guy... Between

5:53

the two, I fixed it in about

5:55

five minutes, okay? So sometimes the value

5:58

system, the moral system doesn't come into

6:00

play. It just depends on the topic.

6:02

If you're fixing something or building a

6:04

fishing rod or, you know, using your

6:06

joiner or something like that in the

6:08

workshop, then those kind of assessments aren't.

6:10

So critical. And part of what I

6:12

mean by good, I mean kind of

6:14

a teleology for our purposes, like what

6:17

should our priorities be? Because someone could

6:19

realize, hey, we need a lot of

6:21

help to get us out of our

6:23

bad tendencies. They could understand human nature.

6:25

But then if their goal is we

6:27

have to beat everybody at every game

6:29

and that's the goal, well, now they're

6:31

just going to help you. They help

6:33

you do well along a wrong path.

6:36

Yeah, that's right. No, that's a great

6:38

observation. So you just need to make

6:40

sure they understand what human flourishing involves.

6:42

And a lot of secular people can

6:44

get that right, but a lot can

6:46

get that wrong. Sure. So those are

6:48

the two things to look out for.

6:50

But Greg, was there anything in particular

6:53

from that book that you have a

6:55

on? No, I can't remember so much

6:57

about it right now. And this is

6:59

why I just do a pre -read,

7:01

I get a sense of it, then

7:03

I have to go over more carefully,

7:05

and then the details sink in. And

7:07

I haven't done that yet. So, Tom,

7:09

you'll have to call the show in

7:12

a couple months and see if he's

7:14

ready yet. Okay, let's

7:16

go on to a question from

7:18

Jake. How do you personally study the

7:20

Bible? I've heard Greg mention, quote,

7:22

I just finished, insert book name, several

7:24

times during the podcast, but each

7:26

time was in a separate book. Are

7:28

you reading that fast? What's your

7:30

process of study? Well, when I

7:32

say I just finished, you don't know when

7:34

I started. So it

7:36

might have taken me a year

7:38

to read that. But my process of

7:40

reading, I've talked about this before, right?

7:43

I have a checklist for, you know,

7:45

reading the Bible in a year, but

7:47

I don't worry about reading it in

7:49

a year. I just use the check

7:51

boxes to check off books that I've

7:53

read. And the empty boxes are the

7:55

books I have to go to to

7:58

keep reading if I want to

8:00

read the entire. Bible,

8:02

the full counsel of God. And

8:04

I have a commitment to keep

8:06

working towards that end until I've

8:08

checked every box, and then I

8:10

get a new form, and I

8:12

start all over again. So I

8:14

think it was 2020 that I

8:16

started that process, and I finished

8:18

last fall, 24. And now

8:20

I started that again, and I'm moving

8:23

ahead. And I will read according to the

8:25

things they have there, but sometimes I

8:27

say, I'm just going to read 1 Timothy.

8:30

And it's not in the sequence, but it's somewhere

8:32

in the chart. I'm going to read 1 Timothy

8:34

and then check 1 Timothy off. So I can

8:36

read wherever I want. But the boxes help me

8:38

to keep track of what I haven't read yet

8:40

if I want to do the whole corpus of

8:42

scriptural books. So that's

8:44

not exactly study. That's reading. But

8:47

I read attentively. I read slowly.

8:49

I use a pencil. And I

8:51

make notations. I circle words and

8:53

draw lines between them. I think

8:55

they're repetition. I can attest to

8:57

that. I'm looking at it right

8:59

now. looking at it right now.

9:01

You know, and I've got one,

9:03

two, three here. You know, I

9:05

got numbers. So

9:08

anyway, it just helps me

9:10

to see themes. And that's

9:12

what I do. Now, I

9:14

only do a deep study.

9:17

This is myself. Because being

9:19

in this work. There

9:21

are things you have to attend to

9:23

as part of your craft and

9:26

as part of your work. And so

9:28

my deep dives are dictated by

9:30

my work schedule. So I did a

9:32

deep dive in the canon. I

9:34

wrote it principally when I was

9:37

in Wisconsin, but I had to bring

9:39

five or six different books with

9:41

me as my resources to make sure

9:43

I had a really good idea

9:45

about it. Then I wrote, I think,

9:47

a pretty good piece on the

9:49

canon that came out last fall, New

9:51

Testament canon, which books and why.

9:54

So now I did a deep dive

9:56

in that, okay? And it might

9:58

be, and I think earlier last year,

10:00

24, I wrote a piece called

10:02

Why the Blood. Now, this was on

10:04

the blood atonement, substitution atonement, a

10:06

controversial issue with some people. But I

10:08

had to do a deeper dive

10:11

in that topic with books and with

10:13

Scripture. Okay, so I'm doing my

10:15

deep dive based on my professional requirements.

10:18

Once in a while, there'll be something I'm just

10:20

curious about. I'll say, gee, you know,

10:22

what about this? I did a piece

10:24

a couple years ago, The Myth of

10:26

the Social Justice Jesus, and then I

10:28

went through every gospel with a fine

10:30

-tooth comb in order to determine Jesus' perspective

10:33

on the poor and the outcast, etc., etc.,

10:35

and see why did Jesus come, what did he

10:37

say, and what did others say about him.

10:39

So there are times when I'll do a deep

10:41

dive like that. Most of the time, if

10:43

I'm not working on a project like that, then

10:45

I'm just moving through the text. And

10:48

nighttime, I read through Psalms

10:50

and Proverbs, Psalms and Proverbs.

10:52

I just keep going back

10:54

and forth between them. And

10:57

that's just, that's my habit.

11:00

Okay, I've done different things at different

11:02

times. And when I started out,

11:04

when I was in grad school, one

11:06

of my professors, and I can't

11:08

remember now who it was, it might

11:10

have been Walt Russell, but he

11:12

recommended... through the Old Testament once a

11:14

year and the New Testament twice

11:16

a year. And so at that time,

11:18

I said, okay, that's what I'm

11:20

going to do. I'm going to start

11:22

reading through the Bible. And my

11:24

goal at first was not to focus

11:26

in too much on the details,

11:28

but just to get a big picture

11:30

of everything, because I think it's

11:32

really important that we get that big

11:34

picture so then the details start

11:36

to fit in in the right places.

11:38

And sometimes if we're reading too

11:40

slowly, And by slowly, I don't mean

11:42

like you're reading each word slowly.

11:44

I mean, you're reading a tiny bit

11:46

at a time, maybe a couple

11:48

verses a day. Oh, I see. Yeah.

11:51

If you're reading like that, you

11:53

don't get the big picture because you

11:55

can't remember what you read at

11:57

the beginning of the book. That's just

11:59

a problem. So my goal was

12:01

to read large amounts at a time,

12:03

not necessarily fast as I'm reading,

12:05

but... larger amounts so that I finish

12:07

the book more quickly, but that's

12:09

because I'm reading more at once. So

12:11

you could read 1 Peter in

12:13

one sitting, for example, and you get

12:15

the whole thing in one sitting,

12:17

front to back, so to speak. So

12:19

that was my goal at first,

12:21

was to get the big picture. But

12:23

what I found, and I figured

12:25

I would eventually start doing something different,

12:27

but what I found is that

12:29

doing that, reading books... as a whole,

12:31

as much as you possibly can,

12:33

like the Old Testament books, you really

12:35

can't do that. I mean, you

12:37

can, but it takes hours to read

12:39

certain books. As I

12:41

did that, I realized it was

12:43

starting to shape me in a way,

12:45

just because of the sheer amount

12:48

that I was immersing myself into the

12:50

Bible, it was starting to shape

12:52

the way I think in a way

12:54

that it might not have. And

12:56

I've pointed out before, We

12:58

have all sorts of books that we

13:00

love that we've read over and over,

13:02

or a TV show that we've watched

13:05

over and over. We did a mentoring

13:07

letter on that recently. And we know

13:09

everything about it, not because we studied

13:11

it, but because we read it over

13:13

and over. Immersion. So I don't even

13:15

think we have to sit down and

13:17

do any sort of very detailed study

13:19

in order to have the Bible shape

13:21

us. And I think there's a place

13:23

for that. But I think my main

13:25

goal is to... get as

13:28

much of it into me as

13:30

I can every day. John MacArthur

13:32

said you should read the Bible

13:34

enough so that your blood is

13:36

bibbly. That's the

13:38

way he put it. Well, I

13:40

saw this when I read St.

13:42

Patrick's book, The Confessions of St.

13:45

Patrick. You know, that

13:47

was written in, what, 400 A .D. or something?

13:49

But as I was—this is years ago when

13:51

I first read it. I saw that there

13:53

were all these footnotes everywhere and the footnotes

13:55

were referencing a Bible verse. And what it

13:57

turns out is that he had so much

13:59

of the Bible in him that as he

14:01

talked, it was just coming out. And

14:04

I thought, oh, that that's what I

14:06

want. That's what I want to be. His

14:08

blood is Bibli. So

14:11

and then along the way,

14:13

I also, Greg, have an app.

14:16

I have an app. You

14:18

use a paper. I have

14:20

an app, I think it's called the Bible

14:22

Box, and it just has every chapter

14:24

and you just check it off and you

14:26

can choose entire Bible, you can choose

14:28

New Testament, you can choose Old Testament. I

14:30

think you might even be able to

14:32

do chronologically, but you just click it off.

14:34

And if you say when you want

14:36

to finish it, it'll tell you how much

14:38

to read that day. And it adjusts

14:40

depending on how long each chapter is. So

14:42

I use that app. But along the

14:44

way, as I was doing this, I realized.

14:47

Or I heard about this method

14:49

that Fred Sanders wrote about

14:51

one time. And it

14:53

was James Gray's way of mastering the Bible.

14:56

And his way was you take a book,

14:58

you read through the whole thing, and you

15:00

read it over and over and over and

15:02

over. Now, if you can do that in

15:04

the smaller book, you can do that, you

15:06

know, in a couple hours. You can read

15:08

it over and over. But what

15:10

I did You mean read it multiple times

15:12

in the same sitting? In the same sitting.

15:15

Okay, as opposed to read— Read through 1

15:17

Peter once a day for a month. Right.

15:19

John MacArthur suggests that, too. So that's what

15:21

I ended up doing. I ended up doing

15:23

one book for a month, and I only

15:25

did this with the New Testament, and that

15:27

took me about five years to get through.

15:30

And as I was doing that,

15:32

I was also doing memorization.

15:35

So memorization actually ends up being

15:37

a really good way to

15:39

study it, because as you memorize

15:41

an entire book, you start

15:43

to see how everything fits together.

15:46

And you have to really meditate on

15:48

it. You have to really think about

15:50

what it means if you're going to

15:52

memorize in that way. And you start

15:55

to understand it in a way that

15:57

I don't, the books that I've worked

15:59

on like that, I understand way better

16:01

than the ones I haven't. It just

16:03

makes a huge difference. So

16:05

I did that memorization while I was doing

16:07

the read the book every day. And

16:09

I didn't get to the end of every

16:11

book, but the parts that I did,

16:13

I really. did, you know, learn

16:15

way better than the other parts. And

16:18

as I'm going, if I see something

16:20

I want to make a note on, all

16:22

I do is I just put a

16:24

date in my Bible and then I have,

16:26

well, I'm using a remarkable now, so

16:28

I write in there, but I also have

16:31

files where I'll just make my notes

16:33

in a book and I'll date it so

16:35

that I can see what my comment

16:37

was for that date. So that's kind of

16:39

how I do notes as I'm going

16:41

along. But honestly, I would

16:43

just say, especially if you're just starting

16:45

out, don't worry about having a system

16:47

that you have to follow because sometimes

16:49

that can stop you. Because you think,

16:52

oh, I'm going to have to get

16:54

my pencil out. I'm going to have

16:56

to do all this stuff if I

16:58

want to read. Don't put that pressure

17:00

on yourself. Anything that's stopping you from

17:02

reading, take it away. If

17:04

something moves you as you're reading and

17:06

you want to write a note,

17:08

write a note. But don't have this

17:11

pressure that I have to write

17:13

notes every time. I am reading the

17:15

Bible because you'll stop yourself from

17:17

reading. Yeah, I have a little aphorism

17:19

about prayer because prayer is difficult

17:21

for me and it's hard to figure

17:23

out. But the aphorism is the

17:25

first rule of prayer is to pray.

17:28

Okay, and there's a parallel here. The first

17:30

rule of reading the Bible is to

17:32

read. You don't have to have a

17:34

pen or pencil or read so much or

17:36

whatever. Keep reading, and

17:38

the point, of course, is being

17:41

consistent. Because another principle

17:43

here for me is

17:45

you cannot read today's

17:47

Bible reading tomorrow. You

17:49

can only read tomorrow's Bible reading

17:51

tomorrow. If you don't read today, then

17:53

you lose this day of reading

17:56

or prayer. You can't pray today's prayers

17:58

tomorrow. You can't do today's workouts

18:00

tomorrow. There's some things you can only

18:02

do today. And

18:04

that's why we want to

18:06

make, like, prayer and Bible

18:08

reading a consistent daily thing.

18:11

You don't need a special

18:13

thing. Just start doing it

18:15

and do it consistently. By

18:17

the way, that is a

18:19

principle at Atomic Habits. Now,

18:21

I recall we had an

18:24

earlier show that asked about

18:26

that. Well, creating a habit

18:28

is absolutely key. create

18:31

in your life. If you do things

18:33

a certain way each day, it's so

18:35

much easier. You don't have to think

18:37

about it. There's less resistance to doing

18:39

it. You automatically go from one thing

18:41

to another. Maybe you

18:43

work out, then you eat, then

18:45

you get ready, then you read

18:48

your Bible. Whatever it is, having

18:50

a consistent routine will keep you

18:52

going. And the other thing

18:54

I would say is, as you're

18:56

focusing on keeping this habit, I have

18:58

two suggestions. One of them is,

19:00

Let's say you're reading several chapters a

19:02

day and you're in a certain

19:04

day where you don't have time for

19:06

that. Don't not read

19:08

anything just because you can't do

19:10

as much as you wanted to. Read

19:12

one chapter. And sometimes I

19:15

actually will say, and that's just to keep

19:17

your habit going. So if I get

19:19

to the end of the day and I

19:21

don't even have the strength to read

19:23

a long chapter, I just read Psalm 23.

19:25

And that's just my go -to. I'm like,

19:27

I'm just going to read the Bible.

19:29

I do it every day. I'm going to

19:31

read it now before I go to

19:33

sleep. the principle is don't break the chain.

19:35

Yes. That's really key. And then my

19:37

second piece of advice would be if you

19:39

do break it, that doesn't ruin everything.

19:41

Have grace for yourself. That doesn't mean, because

19:43

sometimes you miss one day and then

19:45

it's just all over and you feel like

19:47

you've lost your streak. I wouldn't keep

19:49

track of a streak. Don't keep track of

19:51

that because that's too upsetting when you

19:54

miss it. Just have this goal. You read

19:56

a chapter every day, no matter what.

19:58

And if you happen to miss a day,

20:00

It's just one day Just get back

20:02

right back in the saddle. Don't

20:04

let it go. And so that's that's my

20:06

advice Excellent. All right, Greg, We're out

20:08

of time, but thank you so much Tom

20:10

and Jake That was that was a

20:12

fun one and we'd love to hear from

20:15

you Send us your question on X

20:17

with the hashtag ask or to our website

20:19

at str .org find our hashtag ask

20:21

podcast page. Thank you so much for

20:23

listening. This is Amy and Greg Kokel

20:25

for Stand reason You