0:00

I'm Amy Hall.

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I'm here with

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Greg Kokel and

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you're listening to

0:10

Stand to Reasons.

0:12

Hashtag, S-T-R- Ask,

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podcast. So, Greg,

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today we have

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questions about... Repenting

0:24

and believing and easy beliefism and all

0:26

these kinds of questions. So we're going

0:28

to start with one from PR. I

0:31

came to faith in Christ when I

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heard and believed that Jesus died for

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my sins. I do not agree with

0:37

the repent from your sin and believe

0:40

salvation, which seems to be a work

0:42

salvation. How can someone repent without faith?

0:44

Well, I agree with that

0:47

the way it's put. The

0:49

difficulty is in the way

0:51

we have come to use

0:54

certain words. And in this

0:56

case, the difficulty is with

0:59

the word repent. Now,

1:01

the word repent does

1:03

not mean turn from your

1:06

sins. It means change or

1:08

turn, if you will. But

1:10

it needs an object.

1:12

The text says, repent from

1:14

your sins. Now we have the

1:17

object. We know what the turning

1:19

or the mind-changing

1:21

is about. Sometimes, by the

1:24

way, the text says,

1:26

repentance towards God and faith

1:30

in Jesus.

1:33

That's another.

1:36

characterization of

1:40

the word,

1:43

you know,

1:46

you see

1:48

placards and

1:52

signs, you

1:56

see... movies,

2:00

repent, there's the crazy man on

2:02

the street, repent, repent, you know,

2:04

as if this word all by

2:07

itself is all that's necessary to

2:09

be able to understand what

2:11

God requires from us. Well,

2:14

if you have more background

2:16

information, then the answer is one

2:18

word is enough if you have

2:20

the proper background information. And my,

2:23

I agree with the point that

2:25

is a PR, that PR is

2:27

making that you can't. If you're

2:29

saying, okay, I'm promising to leave

2:31

all my sins behind and I'm

2:34

not going to sin anymore, now

2:36

am I okay to receive Jesus?

2:38

That is works-based

2:41

salvation. And what I wrote in

2:43

the story of reality is

2:45

that in my view, and

2:47

this is a kind of

2:49

a little aphorism here that

2:51

helped me, God catches his

2:53

fish first and then he

2:55

cleans them. He catches his

2:57

fish first and then he

2:59

cleans them. Of course, it's

3:01

an illustration. It doesn't prove

3:04

anything. I think the proof

3:06

is in the text. It's

3:08

when we come to Christ,

3:10

our lives are transformed. Behold

3:12

if any man is in

3:15

crisis, a new creature, old

3:17

things pass away, new things

3:19

have come. First Corinthians,

3:21

when he's talking about

3:24

repenting. People are coming and

3:26

confessing their sins. I'll say something

3:28

about that in a moment. But

3:31

then he sees the Pharisees coming

3:33

up and he says, you brood

3:35

of vipers, who warned you of

3:38

the wrath that is to come? And

3:40

he doesn't trust them with

3:42

good reason. And so he says,

3:44

bring forth deeds. in keeping with your

3:46

repentance or professed repentance. Okay? If you

3:48

are really having a change of mind

3:50

here, then you better show me that's

3:52

the case and you're not just showing

3:55

up because right now it's the religious

3:57

thing to do and you're joining in

3:59

with the crowd. So I think

4:01

the passages like this help

4:04

us to see that repentance

4:06

is a transformation of mind,

4:08

but it does entail a

4:11

change of life. And Paul

4:13

writes to Titus chapter

4:15

three, the grace of God

4:17

has appeared teaching us to

4:19

deny on godliness. So the

4:21

package is a robust package.

4:23

We come to Christ like

4:26

the song says just as

4:28

we are. We have changed

4:30

our mind about the way we

4:32

viewed him and God and

4:34

even ourselves before. Now we're

4:37

coming as sinners to receive

4:39

the rescue that he provides

4:41

and to enter into a

4:43

new life. So it isn't

4:45

like I'm getting my fire insurance,

4:48

okay I'm done with you now,

4:50

leave me alone, I have a

4:52

life to live. That's not... the

4:55

new life God is talking about.

4:57

The changed life, the transformed

4:59

life, the born again life,

5:01

results in a transformation

5:04

that has ramifications for

5:06

our behavior. And if it

5:08

doesn't, then it isn't a

5:11

real transformation. It's not a

5:13

requirement of salvation. It is a

5:15

consequence of salvation. But built into

5:18

this, and this is where I

5:20

want to be careful. is the

5:22

idea that when you have a

5:25

change, you're turning from one thing

5:27

to another. You're turning from an

5:29

old life to a new life. An old

5:32

life where, to use the four

5:34

spiritual laws characterization with crusade or

5:36

what they call crew now, I

5:38

guess they still use this, I

5:40

don't know, but we had been

5:42

on the throne of our life and now

5:44

we're putting Christ on the throne of

5:46

our lives. I think it's a helpful

5:49

way of... viewing it. And so

5:51

the turning, the repenting, the metanoeia

5:53

I think maybe is the Greek

5:55

word, the transformation is a result

5:57

of viewing Jesus and ourselves and

5:59

the world. different way. Now we're

6:01

shifting. We're shifting to him. We're

6:03

putting him on the throne of

6:06

our lives. We are no longer

6:08

on the throne. Now we belong

6:10

to him and we're moving in

6:12

that direction. So our trajectory has

6:14

changed from a trajectory that is

6:16

according to the flesh, the way

6:18

Paul describes it in Romans 8

6:21

in the beginning, to according to

6:23

the spirit. Once we have the

6:25

spirit, we are his. And we are

6:27

walking according to that spirit, but that

6:29

is a process. In Galatians 5, we

6:31

see a description, those who are walking

6:33

according to the spirit, cannot, well, he

6:35

says, the flesh in the spirit are

6:37

at war with each other. This is

6:39

for the believer. And you can't do

6:41

the things that you want. It's kind

6:43

of a double entendre. You can't do

6:46

the fleshly things you want when the

6:48

spirit is... is in charge, if you will,

6:50

and you can't do the spiritual things

6:52

you want if the flesh is in

6:54

charge. And then he has the description

6:57

of the deeds of the flesh and the

6:59

fruits of the spirit. All of this

7:01

to say is that it's not just

7:03

a simple repent or a simple believe.

7:05

It is a turning a metanoya, which

7:08

is the word I think that used

7:10

to describe the transformation of

7:12

a caterpillar into a butterfly.

7:14

But then even as suitable

7:16

suitable. analog here. It's a

7:19

turning that has ramifications and

7:21

it's a turning from old

7:23

life to a new life

7:25

and it isn't saying you

7:27

won't sin anymore, but for

7:29

many people it's a radical.

7:31

shift because now they're focusing on Christ

7:33

and they're leaving that light behind. They

7:35

stop, you know, drinking and smoking and

7:38

excess or whatever it is that they

7:40

think has been holding them down, gambling,

7:42

all kinds of things that are awful.

7:44

You hear people say, yes, when I

7:46

turn to Christ, bang, that was gone.

7:48

I didn't do any of that. I

7:50

was transformed. Now, that's not true with

7:52

everybody because some things they struggle with.

7:54

But nevertheless, I want people just to get

7:56

the general picture of the shift and

7:58

the change that's involved. salvation is the

8:01

free gift of grace. Okay? That's

8:03

what we receive from Christ that

8:05

then initiates this radical transformation inside

8:07

that has consequences for the

8:10

rest of our lives. And

8:12

one important point you're making

8:14

here, Greg, is because one of PR's

8:16

concerns is that, you know, how can

8:18

someone repent without faith? So I think

8:21

he's seeing it as repent. and then

8:23

believe. But the point you're making

8:25

is it's one action. That's right.

8:27

You're turning towards Christ. It's the

8:29

belief in Christ is making you

8:31

turn. It's not that you're repenting

8:33

first. It is the repentance in a

8:35

certain sense. Or at least a significant portion

8:38

of it. Yeah. And so the issue

8:40

here is the definition of words because

8:42

obviously... Jesus said repent and believe. So

8:44

he couldn't be wrong about this. It's

8:47

just a matter of understanding the words

8:49

correctly as they're being used. And what

8:51

happens is, unfortunately, is these cultural understandings

8:54

that repent means turn from sin, and

8:56

we import that into the text. When

8:58

the text isn't saying it quite like

9:00

that, that word doesn't mean turn from

9:02

sin. It means something different. That may

9:05

entail turning from sin, but we have

9:07

to keep it in proper surveillance. Here's

9:09

a question from Jordan. What is Greg's

9:12

stance on the idea of easy beliefism?

9:14

That is, the idea that all one

9:16

must do to be saved is believe

9:18

in God. Many people say that the

9:21

belief in versus belief that theology isn't

9:23

found in scripture. But I've been raised

9:25

and surrounded by it as the correct

9:27

view for my entire walk with God.

9:30

The ones that bring up easy beliefism

9:32

say that the verse in James about

9:34

how demons believe but they tremble isn't

9:36

relevant because salvation isn't offered to

9:39

demons in the first place. What's

9:41

the point of James writing

9:43

it if he's not making

9:45

an application to believers? You

9:47

say that you have faith, but

9:49

you have no works. The demons

9:51

say they believe in God, doesn't

9:54

do them any good, and it's not

9:56

going to do you any good if

9:58

all you have is what. you say.

10:00

If your so-called faith and

10:03

what he says there

10:05

in James too is

10:07

can that faith save

10:09

you, can that sort

10:11

of quote-unquote faith save

10:14

you? And his answer

10:16

is no, that's not

10:19

real faith. Then he

10:21

explains what it actually

10:24

is. And I think it

10:26

oversimplifies. the circumstances. I mentioned,

10:29

I think, a few moments

10:31

ago about Romans 8 and

10:33

a trajectory. Paul characterizes or contrasts

10:35

those who are according to the flesh

10:38

and those who are according to the

10:40

spirit. Okay? It's my word, trajectory, but

10:42

I think that's what's being captured there.

10:44

If your life is on a trajectory

10:47

according to the flesh, that means you're

10:49

living like everybody else. Doesn't mean you're

10:51

the worst person in the world. It

10:54

means that you're no different from a

10:56

non-Christian. Then you probably are

10:58

non-Christian. If you rather, according

11:00

to the spirit, and Paul

11:03

characterizes, being according to spirit, is

11:05

actually possessing the spirit. If the

11:07

spirit is in you, because if

11:09

he's not, you're none of his,

11:11

is what Paul says there. If he's in

11:14

you, then you are according to the

11:16

spirit. Even if your life is

11:18

kind of messed up and you're

11:20

struggling with things, Paul uses this

11:22

tame phrase according to the spirit

11:24

or in the spirit. Not the

11:26

way we often use it, like

11:28

in a state of sinning, but

11:31

he uses it as a

11:33

synonym for new birth, you

11:35

know. So that's the best

11:37

way I think to think

11:39

of it. When we become

11:41

Christians, we are putting our

11:43

trust in Christ and we

11:45

are getting on a new

11:47

trajectory. It isn't like, just

11:49

say, I believe. because if the

11:52

I believe does not entail being

11:54

on a new trajectory, it isn't

11:56

the kind of belief that saves.

11:58

That's James' point. So I

12:00

know there's this kind of

12:02

fight between lordship salvation

12:05

and if Jesus isn't Lord of

12:07

all, then he's not Lord at

12:09

all. Well, that's equivocation. I'll

12:12

tell you right now, Christian

12:14

51 years plus. And Jesus

12:16

isn't Lord of every, he is

12:19

not the practical Lord of every

12:21

aspect of my life. He is

12:23

the Lord of everything because he's

12:25

God. But there is not the

12:27

lordship of Christ in every avenue

12:30

of my life, but he's still

12:32

my Lord, and I'm still a

12:34

Christian, and that's part of sanctification.

12:36

So I think that aphorism isn't helpful.

12:38

That isn't what I'm shooting for.

12:40

But at the same time, I'm very

12:43

clear when I have an opportunity to

12:45

talk about these things, that we're not

12:47

asking people to believe that. Jesus

12:49

did this, that, and the other

12:51

thing. That's important. That's the

12:53

first step, but it's in the

12:55

step that works, that takes you

12:58

where you need to go. I

13:00

can believe that the plane is

13:02

going to take me to Dallas.

13:04

A bunch of you guys are getting

13:06

on that plane next week, I

13:09

think, for the, or the week

13:11

after for reality. I won't

13:13

be there because I'm having

13:15

surgery, but I can say

13:17

that because it's already sold

13:19

out. I can believe that.

13:21

and believe accurately, that the plane.

13:23

But I don't exercise useful faith

13:25

or trust in that belief until I

13:28

get out of the plane. Then the plane can

13:30

do for me what I can't do for myself.

13:32

And that analogy I think is

13:34

really helpful in understanding this. I

13:36

don't want, if easy believeism is

13:38

just believing that, that doesn't help

13:40

you at all. The demons also

13:42

believe all those things and they

13:45

tremble. It has, obviously there's no

13:47

salvation plan for them, but that misses

13:49

the point. The point is, well if

13:51

that were the case, then James would

13:54

never have made this remark. He

13:56

makes it because he's making the point,

13:58

look at that, is not. enough believe

14:00

that. It's trust in that

14:03

matters and makes a difference

14:05

and the trust in

14:07

has ramifications and behavior.

14:10

The internal manifests itself

14:12

externally. That's James's point

14:15

in Chapter 2. And some

14:17

people will use the word belief

14:19

to mean trust. So I think

14:21

trust is the key word here

14:23

and I just want to add

14:26

something about James because Even James

14:28

is talking about the trust, specifically.

14:31

I don't think he's actually talking

14:33

about good works here, because what

14:35

he says is, if you have

14:38

faith, then you will have actions

14:40

that reflect that faith. And

14:42

then he gives the example, if

14:44

you say be warmed and filled,

14:46

and you don't give anything to

14:48

help them, you don't really mean

14:51

that you want them to be

14:53

warmed and filled. So he gives

14:55

an example of charity there, but

14:57

when he's talking about his point,

14:59

that's just an analogy for him.

15:02

When he's talking about his point,

15:04

he actually gives examples that have

15:06

to do with faith. So Abraham, believing

15:08

God, believing his promise, believing that

15:11

he could raise Isaac from the

15:13

dead, he acted in faith and

15:15

trust in God. God told him to

15:17

do something. He acted in a way

15:19

that showed that he trusted God would

15:22

fulfill his promise. So I think James'

15:24

whole point here is, is all about

15:26

trust. Yes, I'm glad you're making

15:29

this point. Yeah. James isn't

15:31

a faith plus works scenario

15:33

at all. It's all about

15:35

faith trust and the manifestations

15:37

that genuine trust produces. Even

15:40

Ray Habe the Harlot, which is the

15:42

second illustration where she hides this,

15:44

I mean, look at the dynamic

15:46

between those two. It's to be

15:48

willing to kill your son because

15:50

God you thought... because God told

15:52

you to, even though he stayed

15:55

his hand, versus hiding the slaves.

15:57

I mean, the spies. They're dramatically

15:59

different in... gravity and wait, you

16:01

know, but there's still evidence. And she

16:03

was not a righteous woman, obviously, from

16:05

her background. But what she did evidenced

16:08

her trust in the God of Israel.

16:10

It showed that she believed God

16:12

was real, that he was with

16:14

him, that he would fulfill his

16:16

promises to them. So her actions

16:18

reflected the fact that she truly

16:20

believed what God had said, that

16:22

he was... that he is and

16:24

that he rewards those who seek

16:27

him as he puts it.

16:29

The details are right there

16:31

in that passage too in

16:34

Joshua. So the point here

16:36

is, yes, when you trust in

16:38

God you will be saved. In

16:40

Romans 10, Paul talks about how

16:42

with the heart a person believes

16:45

resulting in righteousness and with the

16:47

mouth he confess is resulting in

16:49

salvation. Your trust in God, if

16:51

it is true trust, then you will

16:54

act in ways that reflect your trust

16:56

in God. And in addition to that,

16:58

the Holy Spirit will be shaping you to

17:00

the character of Christ. But I don't

17:02

think, but the main point here is

17:04

it's all about your trust in God

17:06

because God changes you. And he enables you

17:08

to see him as he is, and then

17:10

you trust in him, and then you act

17:13

in ways that reflect that.

17:15

Incidentally, all of these things

17:17

that we talk about are

17:19

the appropriate consequences of genuine

17:21

regeneration, spiritual regeneration, are in not

17:23

in any ways a work that

17:25

justifies you. And this is where

17:27

some of the confusion comes in

17:29

this debate or discussion about lordship

17:31

salvation, that, and I think... There

17:33

is a justifiable concern

17:35

depending how lordship is

17:37

characterized. But it isn't

17:39

an easy believism here.

17:41

People are just simply missing.

17:44

It's not one or the other.

17:46

It's kind of an amalgam that

17:48

needs to be carefully understood to

17:50

have a biblical sense of how

17:53

it works. So if you want

17:55

to understand, go to Romans. Paul

17:57

lays this out so clearly. He

18:00

goes through all of chapter five. It's

18:02

all about our justification in Christ by

18:04

faith. Four and five are all about

18:06

that. So then what does he say? So

18:08

does this mean we sin because we're

18:11

under grace? May it never be? And

18:13

then he explains, we don't sin because

18:15

we don't sin because we have died

18:18

with Christ. We've been raised again. We

18:20

now submit to righteousness and we use

18:22

our body for acts of righteousness

18:24

because we've been changed and we

18:26

love God. So he kind of

18:29

explains how this All works. Right,

18:31

right. So it can truly be

18:33

said that for Amy Hall, all

18:35

roads lead to Rome. That's

18:37

kind of true. Or Robins.

18:40

He just does such

18:42

a great job of

18:44

explaining just theological basics

18:46

from start to finish. And

18:48

then one last thing I

18:50

want to say that he

18:52

says in chapter, which chapter

18:55

is it? I think it's an

18:57

eight where he's talking about how.

18:59

You mentioned this first, well,

19:01

we have the spirit, if we're in

19:04

Christ, we have the spirit. And then

19:06

Paul says, if you are not putting

19:08

your sin to death, you will

19:10

die. And he goes, but if

19:12

you're putting your sin to death,

19:14

you will live. And then instead

19:16

of saying, because you're putting your

19:18

sin to death and you're getting

19:20

better, he says, no, no, that's

19:22

not why. It's because if you're

19:24

putting your sin to death, that's

19:26

showing you are an adopted child

19:29

of God. Even when he's using the

19:31

example of us putting our sin to

19:33

death, it's only an example proving to

19:35

us that we have the spirit and

19:37

we're adopted. Actually, the phrase he uses

19:39

is led by the spirit. Oh, and

19:41

he does, yeah. Universally misunderstood to mean

19:43

something entirely different. This is what Paul

19:45

means. In that case, the only other

19:47

case where he uses Galatians 5, and

19:49

it's the same thing. Just what you

19:51

described, by the spirit putting to death

19:54

that deeds into flesh. Well, Pierre and

19:56

Jordan, we appreciate hearing hearing from

19:58

you. If you have a question. we'd love

20:00

to hear from you. So just go

20:02

to X and use the hashtag STR

20:04

ask or just go to our website

20:06

at STR.org. Just look for our hashtag

20:09

STR ask podcast page at the top

20:11

of every page and then you'll find

20:13

a link to submit your question. So

20:15

we'd love to hear from you. Thank

20:17

you so much for listening. This is

20:19

Amy Hall and Greg Kokle for stand

20:21

to reason.