0:00

This is the

0:02

hashtag STRS podcast

0:04

from Stand to

0:06

Reason starring Greg

0:08

Kocal and Amy

0:11

Hall. Oh man.

0:13

Okay, I'll just I'll

0:15

just let that one's.

0:18

I'm gonna do that.

0:20

I know you hate

0:22

it. I'm sorry. Oh

0:24

man. Okay, I'll just

0:26

I'll just let that

0:28

one. Okay, we're going to start

0:30

with a question from Hannah. Okay.

0:33

My 10-year-old is witnessing to

0:35

a friend at her school and

0:37

the friend said to her, if

0:39

God created everything, he must have

0:41

created evil too, right? Like God

0:43

made cancer, right? She's unsure of

0:45

how to answer her. Could you

0:47

help clarify this for both of

0:50

us? Resources for young apologetics.

0:52

Yeah. There's a complex question. And

0:54

it gets raised a lot

0:56

of time by people who

0:59

are very sharp and aggressive.

1:01

It turns out there's a

1:03

kind of simple way of

1:05

answering it. And the way

1:08

I characterized the nature of

1:10

the fall in the story

1:12

of reality is that the

1:14

world got broken. When

1:16

God made the world, it was

1:19

all very good. And then human

1:21

beings did something that broke a

1:23

lot of things. It broke their

1:26

relationship with God, it broke

1:28

their relationship with each other,

1:30

it broke their relationship with

1:33

the environment, and it broke the

1:35

whole world as the way I characterize

1:37

it. Now I like that way of thinking

1:40

about it, because it's a very

1:42

vivid picture. In fact, when

1:44

I teach, especially students at

1:46

summit, for example, about this,

1:48

I ask a student for

1:50

a pencil. I want to borrow

1:53

a pencil. So they give me a

1:55

pencil, and then I say, is this

1:57

a good pencil? So yeah, it's a

1:59

good one. What makes it good?

2:01

Well, it does what it's supposed

2:03

to do. Okay? Then I'm in

2:06

front of the audience, I break

2:08

the pencil in half, which really

2:10

shocks them. And then I say,

2:13

now is this a good pencil?

2:15

No, it's a bad pencil. But

2:17

what has been added to the

2:20

pencil to make it bad? Well,

2:22

nothing's been added. Something's been taken

2:25

away. The goodness has been taken

2:27

away, the usefulness has been taken

2:29

away. It doesn't do what it's

2:32

supposed to do. Okay? And so

2:34

this is an illustration that is

2:36

meant to make the point that

2:39

evil isn't a thing. It isn't

2:41

a stuff. If evil was a

2:43

thing and God created everything, then

2:46

God created evil. I mean, that

2:48

follows. Well, God did create everything,

2:50

but evil's not a thing. And

2:53

it's a, what? philosophers would call

2:55

a privation or something missing. If

2:57

you think of the words we

3:00

use for evil, like unrighteousness or

3:02

malpractice or something like that, it's

3:04

a brokenness, it's a loss, it's

3:07

not an addition, impurity, okay? And

3:09

in fact, the word for sin

3:11

in the Bible, Hamartia, the Greek

3:14

word, the Greek word, the Greek

3:16

word, the Greek word, means missing

3:18

the mark. You're not on center.

3:21

All have sinned and fallen short

3:23

of the glory of God. So

3:25

all of these are different ways

3:28

of showing that badness is a

3:30

reduction of something good. It isn't

3:33

an addition of something substantive that

3:35

needed to be created. Okay. Sometimes

3:37

the way people think, we'll talk

3:40

about the falliness of the world.

3:42

They'll say, well, that shouldn't be

3:44

that way. That ain't the way

3:47

things are supposed to be. The

3:49

world is not the way. it's

3:51

supposed to be. Well it started

3:54

out the way it was supposed

3:56

to be, God made a good,

3:58

and then human beings did something

4:01

to break the good thing. And

4:03

so when you have cancer, God

4:05

didn't create cancer, that's part of

4:08

the brokenness. This is the thing

4:10

that that followed from the fall,

4:12

the brokenness of the world and

4:15

the evil in the world. So

4:17

that's the, I think the best

4:19

way to explain somebody, and I

4:22

think the... pencil is a good

4:24

example of trying to show that

4:26

badness is privation. It's something that

4:29

has been taken away. The goodness

4:31

has been decreased. Now this notion,

4:33

by the way, of badness not

4:36

being a thing in itself, is

4:38

it's been around for a long

4:41

time. Augustine talked about this, for

4:43

example. 1600 years ago. So this

4:45

is a fairly simple and legitimate

4:48

way of characterizing the nature of

4:50

the fall, and our language seems

4:52

to capture that too, and I

4:55

gave a bunch of examples of

4:57

that kind of thing, the way

4:59

we talk about it. This is

5:02

the way it should be, kind

5:04

of thing, and it's an appropriate

5:06

way of helping people understand that...

5:09

that badness or that evil is

5:11

the lack of something good, the

5:13

goodness came from God, and when

5:16

goodness gets depleted, that's what we

5:18

call badness. And sometimes it's depleted

5:20

a lot, sometimes just a little

5:23

depending on the circumstance, and those

5:25

are degrees of badness that we

5:27

face. But for the most part,

5:30

that I think is the best

5:32

way of characterizing it. It is

5:34

completely consistent with the biblical record,

5:37

and it's philosophically sound. And I

5:39

would say, when it comes to

5:41

something like cancer, there is a

5:44

sense in which, well, like you

5:46

said, God created everything. good. There

5:49

is a sense in which God

5:51

did curse the land and here

5:53

here's what it says in in

5:56

Romans 8. For the anxious longing

5:58

of the creation waits eagerly for

6:00

the revealing of the sons of

6:03

God for the creation was subjected

6:05

to futility not willingly but because

6:07

of him who subjected it in

6:10

hope that the creation itself also

6:12

will be set free from its

6:14

slavery to corruption into the freedom

6:17

of the glory of the children

6:19

of God. So the fall The

6:21

result of the fall was everything

6:24

being subjected to futility and that's

6:26

when things like cancer and decay

6:28

or all these things come into

6:31

play. So in that sense, yes,

6:33

God subjected everything to futility, but

6:35

that's not because he created and

6:38

he wanted it and that was

6:40

the way things were supposed to

6:42

be. It's because of the fall.

6:45

And so there's that moral element

6:47

that came into it and then...

6:49

This is when God subjects everything

6:52

to futility because now that's part

6:54

of his plan to redeem everything

6:57

and to reveal himself. But probably

6:59

that part of the story, I

7:01

don't know if she would even

7:04

come up with that angle. So

7:06

that's kind of the more theologically

7:08

sophisticated way, biblical way of characterizing

7:11

it, but it's a... It's an

7:13

important part of the puzzle to

7:15

understand the, in a sense, the

7:18

theology of it. But there's other

7:20

thing that I explain with the

7:22

broken pencil. That's kind of a,

7:25

there's a pedagogy there. It makes

7:27

it easier to teach and explain,

7:29

especially at the young. I would

7:32

definitely start with that. If she

7:34

asks more than it, maybe add

7:36

the why, why things fell and

7:39

you'd have to go into that

7:41

a little more. But the whole

7:43

idea that. Evil is just a

7:46

loss of the good, I think

7:48

is the main thing here. Yeah,

7:50

think about one of the questions

7:53

I ask in a presentation where

7:55

I talk about this, is I

7:57

say, did you ever eat a

8:00

donut hole? And then I have

8:02

to clarify, not those gut bombs,

8:05

the little round gut problems you

8:07

eat at the, you know, after

8:09

church, but the hole itself. No,

8:12

because you can't eat the hole

8:14

because that's where the donut ain't.

8:16

And same thing with a shadow,

8:19

a shadow doesn't have its own

8:21

existence, it's just the place where

8:23

light is prevented from shining. And

8:26

so in both those cases, we

8:28

have examples of things we're very

8:30

familiar with, where we can talk

8:33

about a thing as... Real after

8:35

a fashion even though it doesn't

8:37

have any and there's a fancy

8:40

philosophic award any ontology doesn't have

8:42

any existence in itself. It's not

8:44

a stuff But it's it's where

8:47

this stuff is missing. So to

8:49

continue the donut hole metaphor Evil

8:51

is a whole in goodness. It

8:54

doesn't have substance of itself. It's

8:56

where Goodness is missing. Well, let's

8:58

go on to a question from

9:01

Debbie that follows along that topic.

9:03

As a grief counselor, I'm often

9:05

faced with a question, does God

9:08

cause or allow death and sickness?

9:10

This is especially difficult when about

9:13

a younger person. How do you

9:15

respond to this question? Thank you.

9:17

Well, there's no question that God

9:20

allows it. All right? There are

9:22

all kinds of terrible things that

9:24

happen in a fallen world that

9:27

God lets happen because he has

9:29

the power to do whatever he

9:31

desires. Now the question is what

9:34

kind of God would allow bad

9:36

things to happen? And the answer

9:38

is an all-wise God. Because he's

9:41

the kind of God that can

9:43

see... all of the factors that

9:45

are involved and he can, and

9:48

he has larger purposes in mind

9:50

for what he allows to happen.

9:52

All right? And I mean, this

9:55

is a whole topic of its

9:57

own, how God uses evil in

9:59

the world. But let's just leave

10:02

it on a fairly simple level.

10:04

Most Christians can reflect on instances

10:06

in their lives where something terrible

10:09

happened in the moment to them.

10:11

That is, they think this is

10:14

bad. I don't want this to

10:16

happen. Take this away. And then

10:18

God just allowed it to happen.

10:21

And then down the line, they

10:23

look back and see that was

10:26

the thing that God... purposed to

10:28

use for a much greater good

10:30

in my life than would have

10:33

taken place if I hadn't encountered

10:35

that trial or hardship or difficulty

10:37

at all. Johnny Tata, Johnny, Erickson

10:40

Tata is a great example of

10:42

this and she'd acknowledge it. What

10:45

God is that terrible accident where

10:47

she broke her neck became a

10:49

quadriplegic many, many years ago. Back

10:52

in the 60s, I think. And

10:54

yet God has since then used

10:56

your life in such an incredible

10:59

way in virtue of the accident.

11:01

Okay? So yes, God does allow

11:04

all kinds of things. Doesn't mean

11:06

he necessarily causes them in the

11:08

way most people think of it,

11:11

but certainly he allows things to

11:13

happen. people, like dive off into

11:16

shallow water and break your neck.

11:18

But for Christians, he redeems those

11:20

for good, and that's a very,

11:23

very important promise from Romans Chapter

11:25

8. But then there's an additional

11:27

part to this question, and does

11:30

he ever cause sickness? And the

11:32

answer to that is yes. There's

11:35

quite a number of cases where

11:37

God brings plague upon people as

11:39

an act of punishment. and or

11:42

discipline or whatever. So yes, God

11:44

can cause that too. But again,

11:46

the temptation is to think if

11:49

he either causes it or lets

11:51

it happen that he is culpable,

11:54

he is blame worthy. And the

11:56

answer is no. he's not blameworthy

11:58

because he's good and anything that

12:01

he chooses to do he does

12:03

for a good reason and sometimes

12:06

we see that over time and

12:08

sometimes we don't but even if

12:10

we don't it doesn't mean that

12:13

that God isn't good in what

12:15

he's chosen to do and look

12:17

if God isn't good then there

12:20

is no source of goodness at

12:22

all let me just say that

12:25

again if God isn't good there's

12:27

no source of goodness, because you

12:29

can only be obliged to be

12:32

good to a person, not just

12:34

as some abstract concept of kindness

12:36

or love or something like that.

12:39

Now this is getting a little

12:41

bit of abstract, I think, for

12:44

people and maybe philosophical. But the

12:46

point I'm making is, the answer

12:48

to both questions is yes. But

12:51

God, that doesn't create culpability or

12:53

blame or moral responsibility to God,

12:56

because he's a good God, he

12:58

has a plan, and sometimes we

13:00

see the planet, sometimes we don't.

13:03

But the plan is always for

13:05

something good. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think

13:07

it basically comes to the same

13:10

thing, whether he's causing or he's

13:12

allowing, he's still sovereign over it.

13:15

He still could have stopped it.

13:17

So you have to wrestle with

13:19

this idea because he could have

13:22

stopped it. So with that in

13:24

mind, I was reading Job last

13:26

night and even Job, and hopefully

13:29

people know the story, Satan wants

13:31

to show that Job doesn't really

13:34

love God, so he wants to

13:36

cause him all this harm and

13:38

God says go ahead. Well, Job's

13:41

response, of course he doesn't know

13:43

why it's happening. All these different

13:46

things happen, his children die. He

13:48

ends up getting all sorts of

13:50

sicknesses and boils and horrible physical

13:53

problems. But Job saw God as

13:55

ultimately being in charge of this

13:57

because what he says is shall

14:00

Because the wife was saying just

14:02

curse God and die. Yeah, great.

14:04

Great. Help me, right. And

14:06

he says, shall we indeed

14:09

accept good from God and

14:11

not accept calamity? So even

14:13

he saw God as the

14:15

ultimate source of it being

14:17

in control of all of this.

14:20

Now we know. that God does

14:22

sometimes ordain things that he hates,

14:24

for example, the murder of Jesus,

14:26

like that's a sin, that's not

14:28

something God loves, because he's working

14:31

through a fallen world and fallen

14:33

hearts to do something good. And

14:35

I will also say, oh, but before I

14:37

go into the next part of that,

14:39

this doesn't mean that he loves

14:41

those things as an end in himself.

14:44

So just because God ordains someone's

14:46

sickness, that doesn't mean he

14:48

loves sickness. That means he's

14:50

using the sickness in the

14:52

fallen world to accomplish something

14:54

beautiful and good ultimately. Now,

14:56

as you said, sometimes he does

14:59

this for reasons of justice, and we

15:01

see that with the kings of Israel

15:03

who did bad things, and he brings

15:06

these horrible sicknesses on them or the

15:08

people or whatever it is. But when

15:10

it comes to his people, he has

15:12

other reasons and... Those are

15:14

things for their good. As we

15:17

see in Romans 828, God

15:19

works all things together for good,

15:21

for those who love him,

15:23

recalled according to his

15:25

purpose. And the important

15:28

thing to remember here is

15:30

that suffering is not the

15:32

worst thing that can happen

15:34

to us. So as we're

15:36

looking at God. Whether bringing

15:38

it into their life, life,

15:40

life, it's always purposefully because

15:42

he's in control, whether it's

15:44

being allowed or he's ordained

15:46

in some other way, whatever

15:48

it is, his highest goal is to

15:51

make us like him, to know him

15:53

and to love him. And the Lord

15:55

disciplines, those he loves, he does

15:57

that through suffering, but again, we...

16:00

the promise that he does all

16:02

things for good. So you mentioned

16:04

the idea that if God's not

16:06

good there is no standard of

16:08

goodness. That's hugely important. Another thing

16:11

that's very practical and objective that

16:13

you can look at is the

16:15

cross. He proved his love on

16:17

the cross. He absolutely proved it.

16:20

There's no reason for Jesus to

16:22

die for enemies unless he loves.

16:24

So whenever you are suffering and

16:26

you're tempted to think... that God

16:28

is punishing you. Go read Romans

16:31

8, remind yourself that God is

16:33

for you, and look at the

16:35

cross and remind yourself he's already

16:37

proved that he loves you. Now

16:40

one other interesting thing about Job,

16:42

and I think you brought up

16:44

Johnny Eric Santata, the same thing

16:46

happens here. But as I said,

16:48

the devil was trying to prove

16:51

Job didn't really love God. He

16:53

loved something more. So that when

16:55

God took it away... then he

16:57

would turn against God. So what

17:00

happens in Job, and this is

17:02

the incredible thing about that book,

17:04

when you look at all of

17:06

his terrible suffering, the depth of

17:08

his suffering reveals the glory of

17:11

God because Job loved God more

17:13

than he hated his suffering. So

17:15

the worse his suffering gets, the

17:17

more we see, wow, Job loved

17:20

God more than that. He trusted

17:22

him more than that. all of

17:24

that suffering. So we start to

17:26

see how great God is the

17:28

farther he descends. And I think

17:31

the same is true with Johnny

17:33

Eric Santata. I mean, there's this

17:35

one verse, right at the beginning,

17:37

Job 120, right after the first,

17:40

you know, finding out all of

17:42

his children are dead. And it

17:44

says, then Job arose and tore

17:46

his robe and shaved his head

17:48

and he fell to the ground

17:51

and worshipped. That is

17:53

who I want to be yeah, and

17:55

that's who God wants all of us

17:57

to be he wants us to love

18:00

him more than all of these other

18:02

things He wants us to desire him

18:04

more than our comfort. And that's something

18:07

I think he works on slowly over

18:09

time with some people, some people who

18:11

does it very quickly as he did

18:13

with Johnny Eric Zintata. But don't forget

18:16

that this isn't just about revealing God's

18:18

glory. This is also about our good.

18:20

So never forget that. I think about,

18:22

you know, when Jesus let Lazarus die.

18:25

He let him die because he wanted

18:27

to reveal his ability to raise people

18:29

from the dead and that was to

18:32

show his glory. But we know it's

18:34

also for Lazarus is good because what

18:36

it says is he loved Lazarus so

18:38

therefore he waited two days for him

18:41

to die. So he connects that with

18:43

his love for Lazarus. So Lazarus being

18:45

a part of that glorifying of God.

18:48

was for his good also. So it's

18:50

not that God is using you for

18:52

his own ends. He's working both of

18:54

these things together. He's working for your

18:57

good, but he's also working for his

18:59

glory for the good of the whole

19:01

creation. The bigger picture, so to speak,

19:04

yeah. That's great insight. And so this,

19:06

the fact that God's in charge is

19:08

the only way that we can say

19:10

there's purpose and everything. If he's not...

19:13

Then what are you going to say

19:15

to somebody who's suffering? Oh, that's just

19:17

it's just gratuitous suffering and yeah But

19:20

at least you know when God is

19:22

in charge because he's proved who he

19:24

is on the cross mainly But in

19:26

all sorts of ways in the Bible

19:29

Because of that you know that there

19:31

is a purpose and you can hang

19:33

on to that I don't know how

19:35

I would endure anything if I didn't

19:38

believe that I think sometimes people think

19:40

you don't want to tell people that

19:42

God is in charge over this suffering

19:45

because then they'll blame God Well, if

19:47

he's not in charge of it, then

19:49

it's pointless. That's horrible. Which is where

19:51

the world finds itself with suffering and

19:54

no God. Right. You know, the I

19:56

promise that you cited in Romans 8,

19:58

we know that God causes all things

20:01

to work for good, is qualified for

20:03

those who love him and are called

20:05

according to his purpose. So there, you

20:07

hear people in the world, you know,

20:10

in movies and stuff, they say, well,

20:12

it's all for the good, it's all

20:14

for the good, or it's all good,

20:17

or whatever, it's all for the good.

20:19

No, a lot of stuff isn't for

20:21

the good. It's just for the bad.

20:23

There's lots of suffering, there's lots of

20:26

suffering, The largest magnitude of suffering is

20:28

pointless. It serves no good whatsoever. It's

20:30

a consequence of a fallen world. God's

20:32

promise to redeem suffering is for good

20:35

is only a promise to those who

20:37

love him and are called according to

20:39

his purpose. But I would put a

20:42

little twist on that. I would say,

20:44

I would say even the suffering of

20:46

those who aren't his people. are still

20:48

doing good in that it's glorifying God

20:51

in some way because like we mentioned

20:53

when God is punishing or there's judgment

20:55

of some kind so so I would

20:58

say I think it's not working for

21:00

good in their life in that it's

21:02

not making them like Christ right it's

21:04

not shaping it's not helping them know

21:07

God better if they're not if they're

21:09

not his people it's not working the

21:11

way it works in the lives of

21:14

his people now Again, this is the

21:16

only way you can know there's purpose

21:18

and everything. And in fact, this is

21:20

the answer, this is the only answer

21:23

God gives Job. The whole end of

21:25

the book is all about, all he

21:27

says is, look, I am in control

21:30

over all things. That's his whole, that's

21:32

his only point. So the book ends

21:34

up being very, very simple. Number one,

21:36

God is in control. And number two,

21:39

Job Trust God. and loves him more

21:41

than he hates his suffering. Those are

21:43

the two biggest points that you find

21:45

there. And so our job, as we're

21:48

helping people through suffering, is to point

21:50

them... to the goodness of God to

21:52

help them understand that things are not

21:55

out of control, they're not gratuitous, they're

21:57

not random, that there is a purpose.

21:59

And we work on that by looking

22:01

at who God is in the Bible.

22:04

I feel like we say this almost

22:06

every time we can do it. You

22:08

look at the past, you look at

22:11

people's lives, you read Johnny Erickson's books,

22:13

you watch her videos and help, and

22:15

that will help you to understand. Even

22:17

just seeing her. Seeing her in her

22:20

pain, not reject God, helps you see

22:22

the glory of God, even though it's

22:24

not directly, you're seeing that love that

22:27

she has and his sustaining of her,

22:29

and that, even that, will help you

22:31

to glorify God. Well, we're at a

22:33

time, Greg. Well, you ended it well,

22:36

Amy. Well, thank you, Hannah, and thank

22:38

you, Debbie. This is obviously... The biggest

22:40

question I think on everybody's mind is

22:42

always about evil and suffering I know

22:45

this just from answering questions at the

22:47

reality conferences that we do with students

22:49

a Good 75% of the questions have

22:52

to do with evil and suffering So

22:54

this is something we all need to

22:56

work on and luckily the entire Bible

22:58

is filled with it. So we're not

23:01

on our own We can read about

23:03

it go home and read Job tonight.

23:05

It might take you a few hours,

23:08

but it's a long one. Yeah Don't

23:10

pay any attention to what his friends

23:12

say. Just jump over that section. Start

23:14

at the beginning and then read the

23:17

end. Well, what's interesting about the friends

23:19

is that they see God so transactionally.

23:21

You know, they're saying, God does this,

23:24

we do this, God does this. Whereas

23:26

Job is seeing God more personally, where

23:28

he's trusting him without knowing all these

23:30

things, and not imagining that he, there's

23:33

some sort of transactions with God going

23:35

on, that he's seeing him more as

23:37

a as a person, that he's in

23:40

relationship. with. So even from from

23:42

that, as long

23:44

as you know ones are

23:46

saying the right things the

23:49

right things and which

23:51

ones aren't, just it's

23:53

just a fascinating

23:55

book. it. I So I

23:58

recommend it. read the

24:00

recommend you read the

24:02

Bible. one from a

24:05

new one from me.

24:07

you so much. We hope right,

24:09

thank you so

24:11

much. We hope to

24:14

hear your question.

24:16

You can send it

24:18

on ask or you can go

24:21

to our or you can

24:23

go to our website look .org. We

24:25

look forward to hearing from you. This

24:27

is and Greg Kogle for to Reason. reason. Yeah.