0:00

On today's struggle session, filmmaker

0:02

Christopher Jason Bale drops in

0:04

to talk about his documentary

0:06

Miss Me Yet, a year

0:08

by year, minute by minute,

0:10

account of the Bush years, now

0:13

available on Means TV. We

0:15

talk about the rehabilitation of George

0:17

W. Bush. We talk about

0:20

what it was actually like to

0:22

live through the Bush era

0:24

and he breaks down what it

0:26

was like watching hundreds and

0:28

hundreds of hours of George

0:30

W. Bush talking. All

0:32

that and more on today's

0:34

struggle session. talking.

1:32

It may not seem like a big deal

1:34

for a celebrity to attend a football game,

1:36

but I never leave my house. So it

1:38

is a big deal, right? Ellen and her

1:41

wife Portia De Rossi were invited to sit

1:43

in the private box of Dallas Cowboys owner

1:45

Jerry Jones. Former President George W. Bush and

1:47

his wife Laura were also there. But

1:52

during the game they showed

1:54

a shot of George and

1:56

me laughing together and so

1:59

people were They thought, why is

2:01

it gay Hollywood liberal sitting next

2:03

to a conservative Republican president? Didn't

2:05

even notice I'm holding the brand

2:07

new iPhone 11. But a lot

2:09

of people were mad and they

2:11

did what people do when they're

2:13

mad. They tweet. But here's one

2:16

tweet that I loved. This person

2:18

says Ellen and George Bush together

2:20

makes me have faith in America

2:22

again. It really is all about kindness.

2:24

Thank you for the intro Ellen.

2:26

What's up y'all, welcome to struggle

2:29

session. I'm your host Leslie Lee

2:31

the third and yes today

2:33

we will talk about how we

2:35

did get to the point where

2:37

a liberal talk show host

2:39

like Ellen is doing photo ops

2:41

with George W. Bush. But

2:44

before we bring Chris on I

2:46

just want to thank everyone who

2:48

listens to the show whether

2:51

it's on speaker or Spotify

2:53

and if you want to go a

2:55

step further. If you want to get

2:57

the bonus episodes, if you want to

3:00

get all the episodes, add free, just

3:02

log on to patron.com, slash struggle

3:04

session. We're posting some really cool

3:07

bonus content on there, including our

3:09

panel from Hora Khan on Junji

3:11

Ito, which the full video is

3:14

up on the patron for free

3:16

for anyone. Every subscription

3:18

counts and I really

3:20

appreciate your support. It means the

3:22

world. Upcoming episodes. I just

3:24

had a fascinating chat with

3:27

Sam of liberation and martial arts

3:29

about the right wing takeover

3:31

of the U of C.

3:33

He has some really great

3:35

insights into the business interests

3:38

behind it as well as

3:40

the psychological aspects behind it

3:42

that will be coming to

3:44

you later this week. We

3:46

also are going to talk a

3:48

little bit about Dune prophecy.

3:50

HBO's new Sunday night appointment

3:52

viewing. Dune of Thrones as

3:54

some people are calling it

3:56

also might get a little bit

3:59

into the last season of

4:01

Yellowstone. And if there's anything

4:03

specifically you want us to

4:05

cover, just hit us up. Send us

4:07

a voicemail or email

4:10

to the struggle session@gmail.com.

4:12

That's the struggle session@gmail.com.

4:14

Or hit us up on the

4:16

patron or the sub stack. You can

4:18

find those links again at ses. show.

4:20

Again, thank you all so much for

4:23

all the love and support, all

4:25

the great feedback on our X-Men

4:27

episode with Alana 11. Make sure you

4:29

check out graphic policy radio

4:31

when you give a chance I've

4:34

been on several episodes and

4:36

By the way, I got to make a

4:38

guest appearance on the show So

4:40

thank you to Pat the socialists

4:43

and Layla Lee of the punch-up

4:45

pod who had me on Last

4:47

week to talk about COVID. It's

4:49

a great episode. We had

4:51

a really great discussion really

4:53

fun time talking to them

4:55

there's a link in the show

4:57

notes punch up pod but that's enough

5:00

preamble miss me yet on

5:02

means TV miss me yet once again

5:04

is on means TV for free I

5:07

highly recommend you check it out but

5:09

don't worry there's no spoilers on

5:11

this episode we don't tell you

5:13

how the Bush story ends so

5:15

enjoy the show have a good

5:17

one All

5:31

right, Chris, so I've just got

5:33

finished watching your amazing docu series.

5:36

It's one of the best things

5:38

I've seen, really. Like, it's so

5:40

good. I mean, it feels like

5:42

you might have had a really

5:45

good time or really horrifying time.

5:47

It could have been like you

5:49

were one of the protagonists in

5:52

an H.P. Lovecraft story, all the

5:54

footage you had to watch to

5:56

distill into this nightmarish, but also

5:58

darkly comedic story. at times. So

6:00

why did you make this? Why did

6:03

you make it like this? This

6:05

specific perspective? Because this is

6:07

the first of many Bush

6:09

documentaries I've seen that actually

6:11

focuses on George W. Bush.

6:14

Almost every other one,

6:16

he's part of the crew,

6:18

but you focus so much on

6:20

just him and his words.

6:23

And please, you know, how did you

6:25

narrow it down? Because even though this is

6:27

an expansive documentary, you still had to

6:29

trim it. You had to leave a lot

6:31

of stuff out, obviously, but you tell

6:34

this expansive story in a way that I

6:36

haven't seen before. It just, it blew

6:38

my mind. Well, thank you first and foremost.

6:42

I am also a fan of your work. So

6:44

happy to be on here and happy to be

6:46

talking about that. I guess

6:48

I started thinking about

6:50

this project in like

6:53

2014. So

6:55

it was

6:57

about around the

6:59

time Bush Rehab began. You

7:01

know, you're seeing a lot

7:03

of Trump stuff. Bush

7:06

isn't so bad. And it's like, and

7:08

it just hits me and it's like, oh, that would be

7:10

really funny, funny, cool,

7:13

whatever, to do a

7:15

movie where you start

7:17

off with, you know,

7:19

the Bush administration, all this horrible shit, surveillance

7:22

state, millions dead through all these

7:24

different wars. I don't need

7:26

to recap the whole series, but

7:28

it seemed pretty interesting of

7:30

a story to tell with the

7:32

final scene being him on

7:35

Ellen. And it was like, darkly

7:37

amusing. And I got really started thinking

7:39

so much about it. And it was one

7:41

of those things that you can't stop thinking

7:43

about. Therefore, you just have to do it

7:45

yourself. It's not going to just appear. Nobody

7:48

else is going to do it. Considering how

7:50

long it took me, I

7:52

don't blame anyone else for not doing

7:54

it. So over

7:56

those years until it came

7:58

out and 2023,

8:00

I was just grabbing

8:02

bush footage, watching

8:04

it, logging it. A lot

8:06

of the footage I got

8:09

did have text logs, but

8:11

it really helped me

8:13

figure out what was

8:15

useful. And it

8:17

was it was interesting to put in my own

8:19

notes to be like, you know,

8:21

a lot of the footage in

8:23

the film is of bush speaking. And

8:26

you're really looking for any kind

8:28

of cool camera move you can

8:30

get when you're looking at stuff like

8:32

this. So anytime there's a cool zoom, it's like,

8:34

can we use that, you know, that kind of

8:36

thing. And yeah, I did

8:38

want to keep it on bush,

8:40

especially because the genesis of

8:42

it was the bush rehab stuff.

8:45

Therefore, okay, let me focus on

8:47

bush, I'm going to end up leaving a

8:49

lot out. But I don't know, it's kind

8:51

of just the limitations of the medium itself

8:53

and then the limitations of the scope. I

8:56

just had to resign myself to

8:58

saying that this movie couldn't really

9:00

do everything. And then I

9:02

feel like we've heard a lot

9:04

about Cheney, we've heard a

9:06

lot about Rumsfeld. Let me focus

9:09

on this and let me

9:11

go in with it being

9:13

less academic and more

9:15

of a visceral feel, because

9:17

I was in high school at

9:19

the time. And let me

9:21

evoke the time and that felt

9:23

really exciting. And that was something

9:25

that I didn't think I had

9:27

seen necessarily before. So it all

9:30

came together like that kind of

9:32

reliving that adolescents reliving what life

9:34

was like, how I saw

9:36

it. And then eventually, it

9:38

became way too much for

9:40

a movie. And I

9:42

figured that I did want it

9:44

to be a straight, you know, story.

9:46

Again, you start at the administration,

9:48

you end on Ellen, I wanted that

9:51

feeling that arc. But since

9:53

most people just binge watch anyway, it's like,

9:55

okay, well, it'll be an

9:57

episode for people who can't take it. But I

9:59

feel like a lot of people will just

10:01

binge it and then it'll feel like a movie

10:03

anyway. So you kind of got best

10:05

of both worlds. And yeah, here we

10:07

are today. I'm just talking a lot

10:09

about Bush and it was definitely tough

10:11

to watch all of that over the

10:14

many years that I did. But yeah,

10:17

I don't know. Now everyone can

10:20

join me in watching it. Lots

10:22

of documentaries are looking back at

10:24

the 90s and the arts and

10:26

this era where it's and most

10:28

of it is involving, you know,

10:31

sex trafficking, Diddy, and the what

10:33

Nickelodeon. I mean, the Mr. Man

10:35

Man documentary just came out, which

10:37

is awful, by the way, it

10:39

does more to cover up than

10:41

exposed because he started producing it.

10:44

But one of the things I

10:46

like about your documentary as opposed to

10:48

that one is that you're taking

10:50

all of this raw footage, much

10:52

of which I haven't seen before,

10:54

even though I've seen a ton

10:57

of documentaries about the Iraq War,

10:59

about the Afghanistan War, about

11:01

the administration, or even when you're

11:03

showing clips of things we've

11:05

seen hundreds of times, like watch

11:07

this, now watch this drive. You

11:09

show a extended version of it

11:11

that kind of gives a little

11:13

bit more context. Like I have

11:15

forgotten that he was actually talking

11:17

about Israel, Palestine, and saying something

11:19

before he did now watch this

11:22

drive, because usually that clip is

11:24

used to show how he's, you

11:26

know, kind of this feckless dodo

11:28

head who's letting, you know, Cheney

11:30

and Rumsville do run rampant, but

11:32

it kind of shows that he

11:34

has kind of he had a

11:37

personal stake. I think that was

11:39

a big part of why he

11:41

was able to be rehabilitated. Unfortunately,

11:43

like the critics of the administration

11:45

kind of made him a background

11:47

character, but your documentary kind of puts

11:50

a lot more focus, the focus

11:52

back on him. Like for God's sakes,

11:54

he was actually the president. I

11:56

mean, he's a fascinating figure. I think

11:58

it's important to remember that

12:00

again, Rumsfeld and Cheney, they knew

12:02

what they were doing. They were,

12:04

I don't want to say smooth

12:06

operators, but they were definitely operators,

12:08

but he was too. Like his

12:10

dad was the president, the head

12:12

of the CIA. He ran an

12:14

oil company. You know, he came

12:16

from very powerful family with a

12:18

lot of wealth. Like he's not

12:20

just a dumb guy who like,

12:22

they were doing stuff behind his

12:25

back, whatever. Like he just happens

12:27

to be funny and he happens

12:29

to be charismatic and affable. And

12:31

all of that rolled into one

12:33

means that I think he's able

12:35

to be looked at as either

12:37

an idiot or just, oh, he

12:39

means well versus Cheney or Rumsfeld.

12:41

And I mean, look who the

12:43

hell knows what people think of

12:45

Cheney at this point, you know?

12:47

Well, one thing that your doctorary

12:49

highlights that people don't talk about

12:51

a lot is his bizarre religious

12:53

zealotry that he actually kind of

12:55

talked about almost explicitly when he

12:57

was talking about the war on

12:59

terror, not as explicitly as he

13:01

did in private meetings where he

13:03

was talking about Gog and Magog,

13:05

which we've heard that story, but

13:07

like when he was giving those

13:09

speeches, the way he would talk

13:12

about the evils of, what was

13:14

it, Lenin and Hitler. Like

13:16

it was really, he talked

13:18

about it like it was a

13:21

crusade. Yeah, he did. It's

13:23

interesting that he always painted it.

13:25

the beginning when 9 -11 happened,

13:27

he was like, oh, Islam

13:29

is peace, whatever. And then would

13:31

turn around and be like

13:34

clash of civilizations kind of thing,

13:36

clash of religions. I feel

13:38

like he knew what he was

13:40

doing. And part of the

13:42

series too is, which we talked

13:44

about before, is kind of

13:46

recontextualizing clips that either we've seen,

13:49

making them like a little

13:51

longer, putting more around them before

13:53

and after or just placing

13:55

them in conjunction with one another.

13:57

You know, if we're talking

13:59

about him talking about religion, he's

14:02

like, oh, I... and religious therefore I care

14:04

about abortion and I am pro-life so every life is really

14:06

important cut to life clearly not being important

14:08

in Iraq as you know places

14:10

are being bombed people are dying

14:12

that kind of thing and what's

14:14

interesting about the Iraq and Afghanistan

14:16

footage is that it did exist

14:18

and we just didn't see it

14:20

and I don't know like a

14:22

lot of this stuff was from

14:24

AP and that's kind of a

14:26

news newswire so I think the way

14:28

that works is that news networks could

14:31

then use that footage and I kind

14:33

of think they didn't and it was

14:35

kind of remarkable the stuff I

14:37

was able to kind of find

14:39

in the archive and I wanted

14:41

to do it justice because

14:43

it's really cool stuff. They're

14:45

literally, they would interview people

14:48

there who had strong opinions

14:50

on what was going on. It

14:52

just wasn't, these weren't voices you

14:54

heard at the time and I was really

14:56

determined to have that be part

14:59

of the whole story and recontextualizing

15:01

it and everything. And

15:03

yeah, that Hitler Lenin

15:06

mine really blew me away at

15:08

this point of being, you know, my

15:10

journey left words since beginning.

15:12

I mean, even since just

15:14

disliking Bush, but not really

15:16

knowing what to do about it, the

15:19

equation of Lenin and Hitler was like,

15:21

oh my God, this is, I didn't

15:23

expect that. I don't know why. he

15:25

would even say Lenin I would say

15:27

I would say the name drop would

15:29

be Stalin and yeah that's still I

15:31

don't like that but it would make more

15:34

sense to me it was very strange

15:36

that he said Lenin that footage you

15:38

mentioned of the Iraqi people and

15:40

in Afghanistan and just like you're

15:42

just seeing like people on the

15:44

street like man on the street

15:46

interviews of people talking about their

15:48

impending, you know, the impending destruction

15:50

about to be rained on them

15:52

about the United States or and

15:54

talking about as it's going on

15:56

and them explaining in very clear

15:58

terms like we're just regular people

16:00

they're destroying our country. I

16:02

don't know why they're doing this.

16:04

Bush killed my son. They blew up

16:06

a wedding and you juxtaposed that

16:09

with you know these

16:11

some of the silly stuff

16:13

that Bush is doing and

16:15

the silliness of American culture

16:17

at the time like kind

16:19

of some of the more

16:21

ridiculous things like the reality

16:23

TV era really got you

16:25

know pumped up during this time

16:27

yet think you had clips of the

16:29

wife swap where the one woman

16:31

is convinced that the other woman

16:33

is a demonic was she wicking

16:35

or something I believe I think

16:37

something like that but like the

16:40

way she's just screaming hollering and

16:42

like this is what Americans are

16:44

thinking about but in Iraq they're

16:46

like they're just being decimated by

16:48

this war and like you said

16:50

none of that I never

16:52

ever remember seeing any footage like

16:54

that. It's so reminiscent of

16:56

the footage we're seeing Al of

16:58

Gaza and now Lebanon as

17:00

well like you know these people

17:02

on the streets who are

17:04

at the end of these American

17:06

weapons like what they experienced

17:08

and what and juxtaposed that with

17:10

of course the abstractions the

17:12

abstract way we talk about it

17:14

here the abstract way that

17:16

Bush talks about everything there's one

17:18

quote that really like upset me

17:20

is a few episodes apart

17:22

but early on he says sometimes

17:24

you gotta take lives to

17:26

save lives it's kind of a

17:29

weird thing and then a

17:31

few episodes later he

17:33

says the exact opposite

17:35

destroying life to save human

17:37

life is not ethical. You

17:40

and I were talking about the commercials before and

17:42

and there is some like we have to

17:44

admit nostalgic pleasure within that

17:46

but I didn't want to put

17:48

all these things together just

17:50

for that I didn't do it

17:52

just to be ironic or

17:54

winky winky but part of it

17:57

is to better show

17:59

the Unending contradictions we're all

18:01

living under and how they're piled

18:03

atop on one another and how

18:05

they you know, they also work

18:07

in a dialogue with one another

18:09

and You will go insane and

18:12

it's only gotten worse as you

18:14

mentioned, you know, we're all on

18:16

social media so we're seeing truly

18:18

horrible stuff come out from Gaza

18:20

and There's also truly horrible tv

18:22

going on that everyone is concerned

18:24

about we're still talking about movies

18:26

and all this stuff and it's

18:29

It's crazy and I wanted to

18:31

replicate that and it's Not really

18:33

an easy watch. You have to

18:35

wrestle with all of these different

18:37

things, but Um, I had never

18:39

really seen it represented that way.

18:41

So I don't know. I don't

18:43

know if it means anything, but

18:46

that's Something I really wanted to

18:48

do with this project. I mean,

18:50

I think it's incredibly effective I

18:52

love the addition of commercials. We

18:54

were talking before on the show

18:56

like when I have trouble sleeping

18:58

I'll put on one of these

19:00

youtube compilations of commercials and gives

19:03

you this really the strangest feeling

19:05

Of pleasurable nostalgia not the brands

19:07

or anything just the fact that

19:09

I don't know It's hard to

19:11

explain the feeling. I'm sure for

19:13

the zoomers out there. Don't watch

19:15

commercials. They might not understand it

19:17

But it's like this weird nostalgia

19:20

because you don't really remember Most

19:22

of these commercials until you see

19:24

them and then you realize you've

19:26

what you probably watched them dozens

19:28

Of times at a certain point

19:30

in your life. It's just a

19:32

very strange, you know Impression it

19:34

kind of gives and I thought

19:37

it was really effective in them

19:39

in The film is really interesting

19:41

as some of the some very

19:43

interesting choices for the things Uh,

19:45

you should hide you pick Which

19:47

you know like the nip tuck

19:49

and tarzan and dark and last

19:51

comic stand A celebrity death match,

19:54

which I forgot existing with like

19:56

that was a thing they have

19:58

like a video game, you know,

20:00

like big celebrities. I forgot it

20:02

even existed. That was tough. And

20:04

that was like another scary thing.

20:06

So a scary thing would be, oh

20:09

no, I left out something really important,

20:11

which I can't say I ever got

20:13

over. It is a thing where of

20:15

course I include everything. As I said

20:17

before, I have to be like, look,

20:19

this can't be everything, but I still have

20:21

lingering stuff where, you know, it's like, oh,

20:24

you should have put that in. Had that

20:26

with commercials too. And

20:28

I did remember celebrity death match,

20:30

but there's a bunch of stuff

20:32

that I didn't remember, which was

20:34

helpful was to go and just see

20:36

what is the biggest TV shows

20:38

for each year. And then it's obviously

20:40

like, okay, friends is really obvious.

20:43

We're gonna have that moment. Well,

20:45

yeah, that was enough. I remember,

20:47

and the somber commercial of the

20:49

Friends finale, the somber tone, just

20:51

opposed with what's really happened in

20:53

the world. That was really fun.

20:55

I like I say, I feel

20:57

like your documentary, a lot of

20:59

times it's like darkly, it's like

21:01

a dark comedy documentary at times.

21:03

Yeah, no, it definitely is. You

21:06

know, you'll find yourself

21:08

laughing and then you'll be hit with

21:10

reality and then you can't laugh.

21:12

And then the next thing might be something

21:15

that's intended to be funny, but there's no

21:17

way you can laugh at it because of

21:19

what came before it. Yeah, I wanted

21:21

to kind of keep playing with that back

21:23

and forth and

21:25

see what it does

21:27

for the story itself.

21:30

And then choosing the commercials

21:32

was really digging around being like,

21:34

what's going on? So you're

21:36

talking about Tarzan. Who even remembers

21:38

Tarzan? I do remember the WB

21:40

network. I was a big fan

21:42

of that. But, and I remember

21:45

it went away and then it's

21:47

like, oh, I remember they had like

21:49

a goodbye commercial. Oh, God, yeah.

21:51

So that has, that's just too strange.

21:53

That has to go in. Not

21:55

to expose myself, but I

21:57

actually a couple of years ago.

22:00

looked up that they actually made

22:02

me feel kind of sad like

22:04

oh god i miss you know all

22:06

all these shows what was it there

22:08

was like a married with children

22:10

rip off happily ever after yeah happily

22:13

ever i'm like god kind of missed

22:15

these shows i missed the wb

22:17

but you know it's so it's but

22:19

it's such a silly thing and

22:21

took it so seriously and it really

22:23

just ended up being like a

22:25

corporate merger anyway like when you show

22:27

the friend the friends finale commercial

22:29

the next couple of seconds later oh

22:31

here's the premiere of joey you

22:34

know yeah that was that was fun

22:36

and there's some things that i wanted

22:38

to hit on which is kind

22:40

of the evolution of the internet like

22:42

as we're going from the year

22:44

2000 to present how that

22:46

kind of revealed itself in

22:48

different news programs commercials

22:50

that kind of thing and

22:53

then yeah there's a

22:55

baby zuckerberg interview and um

22:57

and then it's like okay

22:59

well i know there's going to be

23:01

a collapse in 2008 so let

23:03

me see what kind of banking commercials

23:05

there are and did not remember

23:07

watching any of these things and they're

23:09

they're quite weird when you know

23:11

it's not to spoil it and

23:13

folks and we have i haven't

23:15

if i haven't said this earlier

23:17

you have to watch this you

23:19

have to watch this doctor mary

23:21

is absolutely excellent please don't let

23:23

me spoil too much for you

23:25

but bake of america commercials where every

23:27

time they're talking about with

23:29

now with 80 less paperwork for

23:31

your home home you can

23:33

do it anytime really quickly and

23:35

it's just like if it

23:37

really does give the the series

23:40

a feel of like

23:42

impending doom like i kind

23:44

of want to ask you

23:46

maybe a creative question you know

23:48

how you feel because you're

23:50

telling a story using these clips

23:52

you're not just exposing reality

23:54

not that you could you know how

23:57

did you how you know what's

23:59

fair if you're being fair. Like, how could

24:01

you absorb all of this footage,

24:03

come up with your own story,

24:05

and not feel like somehow, you

24:07

know, you're telling it wrong, you're,

24:09

you're, you got your hand on

24:11

the scale in some way. Yeah.

24:13

I mean, I feel like I

24:15

do, and I didn't really mind

24:17

too much because, again, there's not

24:19

a ton of... Good to hear.

24:21

There's not a ton of, by

24:23

comparison, there's not a ton of

24:26

lefty perspectives of this. So I

24:28

didn't really mind, I don't think

24:30

a lot of people really see

24:32

it necessarily, but I don't care

24:34

because it's like, okay, well, they're,

24:36

they're getting something out of what

24:38

I did, which I think, you

24:40

know, comes from a certain side

24:42

of the aisle. So

24:44

I didn't really worry too much

24:46

about that, and I kind of knew

24:48

what I wanted it to be

24:51

in terms of, I didn't want it

24:53

to have voiceover, I didn't want

24:55

it to... There are title cards and

24:57

stuff like that, and I didn't

24:59

want to do too many of them.

25:01

I only, when I had to,

25:03

or when I felt like it would

25:05

be good for the storytelling. So

25:08

I kind, that's kind of just what

25:10

the style dictated. Therefore, I couldn't do, you

25:12

know, I wasn't able to add in

25:14

my own voice and be like, oh, and

25:16

then this idiot said that because I

25:18

didn't want to make that kind of movie.

25:21

But I did get a little cheeky

25:23

with some of the end title cards because,

25:25

I don't know, you gotta have a

25:27

little fun here and there. Oh, and they're

25:29

very good, very good. I'm not going

25:31

to spoil them for you, you gotta watch

25:33

them, but they're very, very good. I

25:35

just, we were almost running out of time.

25:37

I just want to talk a couple

25:39

of things. You show the Tom Cruise clip,

25:43

and I, this is my theory,

25:45

I felt that was very

25:47

important because it shows how easily,

25:49

you know, and how totally

25:51

someone's image can change. Because when

25:53

that clip came out, people

25:55

were really down on Tom Cruise.

25:57

After after the fact made

26:00

fun of him He was a

26:02

laughing stock and then people

26:04

started talking about his ties to

26:06

Scientology and that became like

26:08

front and center with Tom Cruise

26:10

That's not the Tom Cruise that we have

26:12

today in the past few years He's

26:14

a he's someone who's

26:16

completely remade his image In a

26:18

similar fashion to bush like it

26:21

felt like when I saw that clip

26:23

That was almost kind of like

26:25

a precursor if I didn't know how

26:27

the story ends For what was

26:29

gonna go with but yeah, yeah, he's

26:31

mr. Movies now at least he was

26:33

two years ago I but I

26:35

think yeah, we've kind of

26:37

forgotten The jumping on the

26:39

couch you're doing weird Scientology shit

26:41

That's all kind of wiped

26:43

and he's mission impossible action

26:46

star Top Gun is

26:48

back and you know, I

26:50

like those movies So I'm not

26:52

trying to say I don't but

26:54

yeah, there's like a hinting in

26:57

that kind of character change

26:59

and It's also the

27:01

thing how malleable these

27:03

personas can be

27:05

and how short

27:07

our Memory is our our

27:10

social memory for all

27:12

this stuff that things can

27:14

be rewritten And it's not even

27:16

that oh this person this artist

27:18

We like or whatever is actually

27:20

a human being with all their flaws or whatever

27:22

and we have say a struggle session With

27:25

their work or whatever. It's not even

27:27

that it's like things literally get wiped

27:29

and we don't Learn anything

27:31

from them. We don't learn

27:33

anything about Power and how it's

27:35

wielded and that kind of thing

27:37

so yeah I mean again the Tom

27:40

Cruise thing was huge, but it

27:42

is a it is also an element

27:44

that blends itself to the story

27:46

of the rehab

27:48

of Bush is responsible

27:50

for death

27:53

and destruction and

27:55

it's fine because he shares

27:58

candy with Michelle Obama

28:01

and baseball games with Ellen.

28:03

Like I said, there's so much

28:05

to talk about. This is a

28:08

fantastic, fantastic documentary. I

28:10

love how many times you

28:12

caught Bush complaining and blaming

28:14

every other country for all

28:17

the violence in the world.

28:19

I had forgotten his tendency

28:21

to do this. Like, we

28:23

need to tell. the other nations

28:25

to cut it out stop the

28:28

violence meanwhile the most he's running

28:30

the most violent nation on earth

28:32

waging two wars and it's just

28:34

like I don't remember I did

28:36

anyone ever call this out particularly

28:39

no you just no I don't and

28:41

I don't think we do and that

28:43

is also something I wanted to

28:45

have in there because I do

28:47

end up getting into conversation sometimes

28:49

with people in my everyday life

28:52

who You know, just, I guess to

28:54

kind of be fair, I

28:56

don't think they're really thinking

28:59

critically about this

29:01

stuff, but you know,

29:03

they will blame any

29:05

other country for being

29:07

violent or whatever without

29:10

recognizing that we're actually

29:12

a very violent country

29:14

and it is not really thought

29:16

of that way. We see ourselves

29:19

or they see their own

29:21

country as Not as, I don't

29:23

even know how to put it, they

29:25

just don't see, they accept these

29:27

things and don't think about them

29:29

because they have a moral superiority

29:32

or something for whatever

29:34

reason. It really frustrates me and

29:36

any way I can do to

29:39

kind of make someone hopefully think

29:41

a different way about that is

29:43

something I want to do. The

29:45

only thing is it's because of this

29:48

particular project, I hope it's

29:50

not just. Oh, which was

29:52

the only bad one, you

29:54

know? Oh, yes. And that's

29:56

all it is. That's not

29:59

the case. My main takeaways

30:01

from this is, wow, Trump is

30:03

the best thing ever happened to

30:05

Bush. It feels inevitable in, you

30:07

know, eight to 16 years. There'll

30:10

be somebody worse than Trump and

30:12

you'll have to make another documentary

30:14

about the Trump years or to

30:16

remind people that they actually was

30:18

bad and you actually was that

30:21

bad. Yeah, that's sad. And I

30:23

wonder, I do wonder about Nixon

30:25

and what people think of Nixon

30:27

now. Like is he still a bad one? Yeah,

30:30

so yeah, Nixon was kind of the

30:32

exception because I was thinking I wanted

30:34

to I kind of I did want

30:36

to talk about this like I remember

30:39

how Reagan was kind of rehabilitated in

30:41

real time, you know, when I was

30:43

a kid and younger like by the

30:45

time you get to. you know, Obama,

30:47

Reagan was, you know, the

30:49

great communique here, everybody loved

30:52

him, wasn't controversial at all.

30:54

Reagan, Nixon didn't quite get

30:56

that treatment because of, you

30:58

know, Watergate, which of all

31:00

the crimes that he and

31:03

other presidents committed, was fairly

31:05

minded. Yeah, I mean, Vietnam alone,

31:07

Chile, all these things, definitely outclass

31:10

Watergate, I'd say. But it's, yeah,

31:12

it's weird that that's the one

31:15

that we hold up. Occasionally,

31:17

there's moments in the

31:19

film where celebrities are actually

31:21

directly addressing the politics. You

31:23

show clips of Kanye West

31:25

talking about the Blackwater shootings

31:27

during Katrina, which usually

31:30

we just see the clip of

31:32

him saying George Bush doesn't care

31:34

about black people. I remember when

31:36

that controversy happened, everybody was talking

31:38

about how mean that was, say,

31:41

about the president. But nobody really

31:43

talked about the fact that he

31:45

had was dropping this story that

31:47

might have, people might not have

31:49

believed at the time, but was

31:51

actually happening, which was that there

31:53

were mercenaries on rooftops shooting black

31:55

people who they were claiming were

31:57

looting in New Orleans during Katrina.

32:00

And I just like that was

32:02

just a shocking thing to look

32:04

back and see is like, oh,

32:06

that's what that was about. And

32:08

it reminded me like I actually

32:10

worked for FEMA for years after

32:12

Katrina. And do you want to

32:14

guess who had the contract for

32:16

security at the FEMA offices? Blackwater. Blackwater.

32:18

Blackwater. Even after those, you know, stories

32:20

came out and they all were

32:22

just these huge jacked up dudes. They

32:25

all look like pro wrestlers. Like

32:27

they're all on like massive jacked up

32:29

dudes. Anyway, I'm sorry, your documentary

32:31

just made me think about so many

32:33

things I wanted to talk about.

32:35

But the celebrity thing I really wanted

32:37

to get to was it felt

32:39

like there weren't that many

32:41

celebrities talking compared to what

32:43

you see now. Like it's

32:46

a part, it's become a

32:48

part of the celebrity brand in

32:50

certain respects to certain limits

32:52

to talk about politics while

32:54

when Michael

32:56

Moore wins the Oscar for

32:58

Bowling for Columbine, it seems

33:00

like a lot of the A -listers

33:02

and even ones who you now might

33:05

think would be, you know, they

33:07

wear the, you know,

33:09

Times Out pin. They

33:11

would say something now, but back

33:13

then they just all looked

33:15

very, very uncomfortable about this political

33:17

statement he was making about

33:20

our fictitious president in a

33:22

fictitious war. It seems like

33:24

the A -listers were very uncomfortable.

33:26

But now they've kind of

33:28

all made that part of their

33:30

brand in some respects till

33:32

very limited extent. Yeah. Yeah,

33:34

that's pretty interesting. Yeah, the Dixie

33:37

chicks become pariahs for speaking

33:39

out. Which would mean nothing

33:41

today. Would be nothing.

33:43

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it's

33:45

a very weird thing what happened

33:47

and I don't really know. I

33:49

think people were 9 -11, you know,

33:51

it did so much and I'm

33:53

pretty sure there's people to this day

33:56

don't really understand that

33:58

there was no...

34:00

connection to

34:02

9 -11 and Iraq and

34:04

yeah there's no connection

34:06

to 9 -11 and Afghanistan

34:09

either and I

34:11

think maybe more people

34:13

think that than

34:15

Iraq which is also wrong and

34:17

I think that was touchy

34:19

in that way and I don't

34:21

know if that meant that

34:24

people in the media and celebrities

34:26

maybe thought that or were

34:28

nervous that other people thought

34:30

that but 9 -11

34:32

really it was bad

34:34

it was really bad but it is

34:36

funny it's more of a I

34:38

wonder how much of it too is

34:40

any interaction any anything that will make

34:42

people comment and do all that

34:44

stuff is good for business because you

34:46

have people and then you have

34:48

these niches and maybe that's good for

34:51

business as opposed to back in

34:53

the day there was more of a

34:55

monoculture I guess I don't know

34:57

yes yes well Chris this document is

34:59

so good it's so good we

35:01

could talk about this all day I'm

35:03

so I'm I want to apologize

35:05

I've wanted to have you on the

35:07

show for a really really long

35:09

time you're an amazing filmmaker thank

35:11

you so much for making this

35:14

it's it's it's amazing it's

35:16

miss me yet is where can

35:18

people find it yeah so miss me

35:20

yet is on means TV that's

35:22

means.TV and you can watch it for

35:24

free you don't even have to

35:26

sign up but I do encourage you

35:28

to sign up we are a

35:30

worker -owned streamer co -op

35:32

and my first film is on

35:34

there called the winds that scatter

35:36

and I'll probably have other stuff

35:38

on there as well and there

35:40

is tons of original series

35:42

we've made there's tons of

35:45

documentaries yeah Sam sex is

35:47

on there with the means

35:49

morning news very good show

35:51

to get your news fix

35:53

daily and yeah check that out I

35:55

also have a link tree I'm

35:57

pretty sure it's just Christopher Jason Bell

36:00

Oh, if you can find it, uh,

36:02

please visit it. All right,

36:04

folks, that was Struggle Session. Have

36:06

a good one. Peace. Like

36:08

what you hear, I want to

36:10

hear the full episode or

36:12

check out hundreds of bonus episodes,

36:14

as well as our public

36:17

episodes ad free. Just head to

36:19

patreon .com or struggle session.substack.com.