0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or

0:09

learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of iHeartRadio.

0:24

Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

0:26

name is Nolan.

0:27

They call me Ben. We are joined as

0:29

always with our super producer Andrew

0:32

Treforce Howard. Most importantly,

0:34

you are you. You are here. That

0:37

makes this the stuff they don't

0:39

want you to know. In tonight's episode,

0:41

we are exploring a story of crime,

0:44

politics, and possibly conspiracy.

0:47

Building off our earlier exploration

0:49

into the American Indian Movement, we are

0:51

focusing on a single individual,

0:54

a man who, as we record,

0:57

has been nearly half a century

1:00

eight years imprisoned for crimes

1:02

that he maintains he did

1:04

not commit. Now, before we

1:06

roll through this, guys, what's

1:09

the most important thing people need to remember

1:11

about our US versus the American

1:13

Indian Movement episode?

1:16

Oh jeez, how

1:19

do you boil that down? I don't know.

1:20

As far as I'm concerned, that reparations

1:23

are due ward two and they still

1:25

haven't been paid in many cases.

1:28

Yeah, maybe just the formation of this country

1:31

is the direct result of taking

1:34

land from peoples that lived here

1:36

before America was ever a thing,

1:39

and it continues the

1:41

country, the company America

1:44

continues to I would say,

1:46

disenfranchise and wrong peoples

1:48

that they stole the land from initially agreed.

1:52

The United States has always been

1:54

an experiment and it is the

1:56

result of a conspiracy. There

1:58

is nothing inaccurate

2:01

about that statement. This is the story

2:03

of Leonard pell Tier. Here

2:12

are the facts. We mentioned

2:14

this in our previous

2:17

episode, our exploration of

2:19

the American Indian Movement. Leonard

2:22

Helltier. You can hear it called

2:24

that on sixty minutes. You can hear alternative

2:27

pronunciations. Last name P. E.

2:29

L t I E R. Born

2:31

on September twelfth, nineteen

2:34

forty four, in Grand Forks,

2:37

North Dakota, and who he

2:39

was part of a really big family.

2:43

Unbelievably big.

2:44

Indeed, he was the

2:47

eleventh of thirteen children.

2:50

At least it wasn't the middle child. That would have been rough

2:53

with that many similss.

2:54

Kind of he's like the end of the middle

2:56

children, but he's not the last, and he's

2:58

not the eldest.

3:00

One could argue maybe not the worst position, because if

3:02

you're eleventh or thirteenth, you

3:04

haven't been totally forgotten by mom and dad

3:06

yet.

3:07

But you're also like kind of old

3:09

news. So it's sort of a kind of the sweet spot maybe.

3:11

But I don't know my ancestors who at

3:13

some point started just naming

3:15

the kids based on their birth

3:17

order. I have for

3:20

many years a great aunt nine.

3:23

Nice.

3:23

Wow, you know what, I think we should normalize

3:25

naming children after prime numbers. I

3:28

think that's a good idea. I like the way numbers

3:30

sound.

3:31

Six.

3:31

There's a character named six, I believe, what

3:33

was it, ozark AnyWho.

3:34

I think there's a nice ring to it.

3:36

But his parents divorced when he was four years

3:38

old, and after this, he and another

3:40

sibling sister unclear

3:43

as to which number of sibling she was, were

3:46

sent to the Turtle Mountain Indian

3:48

Reservation of the Turtle Mountain

3:50

Chippewa tribe near Belcourt,

3:53

North Dakota, in order to live with their

3:55

paternal grandparents.

3:58

Yeah, and his father would

4:00

later move back to his

4:03

own parents area. The

4:05

letter is the opposite of a quote

4:08

unquote silverspoon kid. You

4:10

know, like far too

4:12

many children in the native

4:14

community. He grew up amid rank

4:16

poverty and active discrimination.

4:19

And we mentioned this in our previous exploration,

4:23

but we didn't get into the specifics.

4:25

At the age of nine, he was

4:28

sent to a boarding school

4:31

that function to assimilate

4:34

Native children, the Wapaton School

4:36

in North Dakota, and

4:38

he was, like so many innocent

4:41

children there and in Canada

4:44

and in Australia, if we're being honest, he

4:46

was subjected to various forms of

4:48

emotional and physical abuse.

4:50

I would also say he was subjected to

4:53

cultural abuse because he

4:55

was being forced to

4:57

erase his own and

4:59

sel estual culture. And there's not really

5:02

in English a word for that kind

5:05

of brutality

5:07

visited on people, So I would

5:09

go with cultural abuse or cultural

5:11

erasure.

5:12

I rasure, Yeah, No, I mean it reminds

5:14

me of like, you know, the Germans are so good with having

5:16

words describe like kind of complex emotions

5:19

or scenarios, like the word for Holocaust

5:21

guilt, which I think I've talked about before. But no,

5:24

but I think this concept deserves a word. But I

5:26

think he did the next best thing, Ben,

5:28

You're absolutely right, cultural erasure or

5:30

abuse.

5:32

Yeah, So, as a little little

5:34

child he went through that whole

5:36

scenario. Then he was sent

5:39

to another one of these schools, right, this

5:41

time in South Dakota the Flandreaux

5:43

or f L A N d r. Eau

5:46

Indian School, and then he

5:48

ended up dropping out around the ninth grade and

5:51

headed back to where his dad was in Turtle

5:53

Mountain.

5:55

And while he is at Turtle Mountain,

5:58

he witnesses first hand the

6:00

policy we're talking about earlier, the

6:02

policy of termination. Termination

6:05

at this point was not

6:09

necessarily the media genocide

6:11

practiced by the Nazi Party, but

6:14

it did include siege

6:16

mentality, withdrawing federal

6:18

assistance, including food assistance,

6:22

from Native Americans living

6:24

on these reservations. It

6:27

was at the very best,

6:29

a ham fisted attempt

6:32

to make people, you know, eat

6:35

the apple pie right, drink

6:37

the George Washington mead,

6:40

assimilate and stop speaking their

6:42

own languages.

6:43

And this is in the late nineteen fifties,

6:46

I believe, around the time when this is occurring.

6:49

And history is far closer than

6:51

it looks in the rear view mirror. It

6:53

was at worst, very much

6:56

like putting a community under siege,

6:59

like the old medieval warfare style

7:01

thing. You surround a castle and

7:04

you try to starve it, and that's what they

7:06

were doing. And for anyone who

7:08

would ignore

7:10

the various broken covenants

7:13

of the US government and agree

7:16

to assimilate. They

7:18

were given promises of jobs

7:21

and guaranteed housing in urban

7:23

areas.

7:25

Spoiler.

7:26

I mean, you know, it seems like almost one

7:28

of the cruelest cuts of the whole

7:30

relationship between the United States government and

7:33

Indigenous people is the continual

7:36

stringing along, you know, the continual

7:39

promises and the continual kind of

7:41

moving of goalposts. It's just, I

7:43

don't know, it's just a very difficult way to live

7:46

without any kind of assurance that you are going

7:48

to be made a whole or that you want to be taken care of.

7:51

And just so I get those dates right really quick, guys,

7:54

it is in the late nineteen fifties when this is

7:56

when Leonard is experiencing this.

7:59

But that was a policy either went from nineteen fifty

8:01

three all I think to nineteen sixty

8:03

eight.

8:04

Yes, officially, I

8:07

would argue. I would argue the BIA

8:11

has continued very similar

8:13

things. Well, as we'll discuss with cointelpro.

8:16

That's the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

8:19

That's the Eurea of Indian Affairs, right.

8:20

So, with those promises of jobs

8:23

and housing from the US

8:25

government, folks arrived in many of these

8:27

cities, and like we mentioned, were

8:29

kind of left holding the bag.

8:31

You know, we're not.

8:34

Given the opportunities and assistance

8:36

that they were promised. This is going

8:39

to become an ongoing theme. So

8:41

as a result of said broken

8:43

promises, many of them became unhoused

8:46

in the parts of the country where they had

8:48

no support systems.

8:51

Right, yes, and we're

8:53

further victimized by again

8:55

I use the word rank not loosely.

8:58

It is unclean discrimination.

9:01

You know, they were calling people engine

9:04

I n jun and things like

9:06

that. It was very bad and

9:08

it was not what Uncle Sam promised

9:10

them. And so in nineteen sixty

9:12

five, Leonard relocates

9:15

to Seattle, and you

9:17

know, he got there way before Microsoft did, and

9:20

he went because this

9:23

is the historic homeland of

9:25

the Nez Pierce. And while

9:27

there, Leonard does several amazing

9:30

things. He takes some odd jobs

9:32

in construction, He works as

9:35

a welder. He eventually

9:37

becomes the part owner

9:39

of an autobody shop. And here

9:42

I would argue, no matter whatever,

9:45

nine to five kind of job the guy has,

9:47

he finds his true vocation, which

9:50

is activism, which is supporting

9:52

the community, and so he becomes

9:54

evolved in different aspects

9:57

of the Native American rights movement, and

9:59

he he has this greater goal

10:02

in mind. Right, organizations

10:04

can be ephemeral, they can have ven

10:06

diagrams, you know, not everybody

10:09

affiliated with something

10:12

like the United Indians of All Tribes,

10:15

not everyone there as a member of the American

10:17

Indian movement, but they are gathered

10:20

toward common cause. And so here

10:22

Leonard does really awesome stuff.

10:25

He finds people who have

10:28

been you know, promised jobs

10:31

by the termination policy and

10:33

then been robbed of those jobs. Or

10:35

he finds people who have been caught

10:37

up in the incarceration system

10:40

and then let out just sort

10:42

of counting the days before they get arrested

10:45

again. And he helps them,

10:47

and he says, come get a job with me, come

10:49

live here at the autobody shop. We

10:52

can help you out. And if someone has

10:54

a car in need of repair and

10:56

they can't afford it, he helps them

10:58

out there too.

11:01

Yeah, this is a really important thing here. Just

11:05

when I'm thinking about it, I'm

11:07

imagining all the people who read

11:09

about or see, you know,

11:12

on the news or something some

11:14

kind of movement that's occurring, like this Native American

11:17

rights movement. Right there are people who see it and

11:19

then want to get involved. But then there are also people like

11:21

Leonard, like his family, like all of the

11:23

people that were living in these various reservations

11:26

that in that land that was just taken again

11:28

by the United States. To

11:31

actually experience that, to go through that,

11:34

to watch yourself, your family, your

11:36

friends, not have any

11:38

of the things like to

11:40

be lied to, let's say, to your face, and

11:42

then to go through all the hardships that

11:44

that entails. Somebody

11:46

who has been through that experience is

11:49

ready to fully fight back

11:51

against whatever system wronged

11:53

them, whatever individuals, whatever group,

11:56

whatever that thing is that both

11:58

took from them and then wrong them.

12:00

I just think that's a really important thing, Like, oh,

12:02

yeah, that mean fire that would be in your

12:05

mind. I don't think would

12:07

get crushed out by anything.

12:09

Yeah, And not to be like mega mega

12:11

like America sucks or whatever, but it

12:13

does feel like this is sort of typical

12:16

behavior, this mo of like, whatever

12:19

you've got going on isn't as important as what we've

12:21

got going on, and what we want

12:24

and what we need completely

12:26

supersedes any of your concerns, and.

12:28

We are going to quote unquote make it right.

12:30

What we did.

12:30

We acknowledge somewhat that we shouldn't have taken

12:33

your land. Maybe don't even go so far as they shouldn't

12:35

have, but we're going to give you something

12:37

in return and then just not get

12:39

it just completely, you

12:42

know, leave people hanging after being

12:45

the one that wronged them in the first place. Now

12:47

you're the one who's supposed to mitigate that wronging.

12:50

And I mean, it's it seems like

12:52

a conflict of interest, is it to the largest

12:55

possible degree?

12:56

What?

12:56

No way, But yes,

12:59

you're absolutely right, and I agree with you. Know, there's

13:02

much more to the story of the body Shop.

13:05

Like we were saying earlier, it did become a

13:07

halfway house for people

13:09

who had been discharged from

13:12

incarceration on a federal or

13:14

local level or a state level from

13:17

the Native community. Eventually,

13:20

just like the original attempt

13:22

to occupy Alcatraz shout

13:24

out to Ridiculous History episodes, eventually

13:27

the autobody Shop did have to

13:29

shut down. Yet I would

13:32

argue this showed Leonard

13:35

the way, This showed him that

13:37

change is possible. And during this

13:40

time he also becomes intensely

13:42

involved with land reclamation

13:45

issues, with alcohol counseling,

13:48

and with initiatives to preserve

13:51

native land in Seattle during

13:54

the time when real estate is booming.

13:56

I like check out if you want to learn

13:58

more about this bick out the takeover

14:01

of Fort Lawton on March eighth,

14:04

nineteen seventy. At this point

14:06

we mentioned the earlier initiative.

14:09

You can learn more about it and occupy ALCATRAZM

14:11

ridiculous history. Leonard was

14:14

part of the United Indians

14:16

of All Tribes group that

14:19

scaled the fences around

14:21

Fort Lawton, and Fort Lawton

14:23

is contiguous with the

14:26

Greater Seattle area. The

14:28

fort was going to be decommissioned. The

14:31

local horse traders wanted

14:33

it to be a park,

14:36

like a local park, and they were

14:38

not listening to peaceful

14:41

means of negotiation

14:43

from the native populations, so

14:46

they got the fence jumped. And when these

14:48

guys jumped the fence, they are confronted

14:50

with flamethrowers and machine

14:53

guns, and then they peacefully

14:55

surrender and the law

14:58

enforcement beats the snot

15:00

out of them, arrest them, and

15:02

then when they take them to their cells

15:05

to this stockade, they beat

15:07

the snot out of them again. Leonard

15:09

eventually is released, but

15:12

he refuses to leave the property

15:14

until every other protester is also

15:17

set free because they add no real

15:19

charges to keep these people on.

15:21

Well that's because well, I mean,

15:24

just to give a little bit more detail

15:26

maybe around what led

15:28

to them believing that they were righteous

15:31

in jumping the fence. The decommissioned

15:33

fort was very similar to what had happened

15:35

with Alcatraz, where it was no longer being used

15:37

as a federal penitentiary.

15:38

Or no longer being used.

15:40

Therefore, there was a law in the books I

15:42

believe, I can't remember the exact name that supposedly

15:45

would grant Native people the

15:47

ability to petition to have those

15:49

lands returned to them for use as

15:52

cultural centers or as heritage centers

15:54

or what have you.

15:55

And that's the Fort Laramie Treaty

15:57

of eighteen sixty eight, which

16:00

allows Native American populations

16:02

to appropriate quote surplus federal

16:05

land.

16:06

There you go.

16:07

So what they were doing was technically

16:10

legal, and yet they were met with

16:13

a show of force.

16:15

It's so weird when we're thinking about the legality

16:18

of everything we're going to be talking about this episode,

16:20

it makes your headsp well, yeah, because

16:23

it really is. It's an authority

16:25

from a country that

16:27

officially, on paper runs the land

16:30

everybody is on except for these little

16:32

places that they've granted to

16:34

the original peoples that lived there, right

16:36

where.

16:36

The laws, those covenants

16:39

yet exactly exactly.

16:42

It's when you're thinking about what is against

16:44

the law or not against the law, or

16:47

okay for a group of protesters

16:49

to do or not okay for them to do, it

16:51

gets so muddied.

16:53

Shifts depending on who's in charge

16:55

and who it benefits. You know, I really, I mean,

16:58

I would consider myself for

16:59

the most part of law abiding citizen,

17:02

but stuff like this really does kind of call into

17:04

question the whole nature of what is legal

17:07

and what is right now and the

17:09

relationship between those things.

17:10

And here we find common cause with

17:13

every long time listener, every fellow

17:15

conspiracy realist tuning in

17:17

to stuff they don't want you to

17:19

know. Ideologies may

17:22

differ, but a promise broken

17:24

is a promise broken. And if we exercise

17:27

empathy, we can absolutely

17:29

understand the objective track

17:31

record of various treaties

17:34

being proposed and then

17:37

being broken, and then being proposed

17:40

and then being broken, and then

17:42

being proposed and proposed and

17:45

then being broken and then being

17:47

proposed and then being broken.

17:49

I yield my time.

17:51

It reminds me a lot of

17:53

wartime reporting, and

17:55

it depends so much on who's telling you the

17:58

story right where you're gathering information

18:00

from or if you hear a story about

18:03

Leonard Peltier and any of these

18:05

movements. Whoever's telling you the story

18:07

specifically in that time period is

18:10

going to shape a lot of how you view

18:12

this, this thing, all of these events

18:14

that we're talking about. So you just I mean,

18:16

I know, we have to we talk about keeping

18:19

that in mind at all times when we're exploring

18:21

the world, right, but just in this

18:23

case in particular, especially

18:25

if you are listening to some of

18:27

the things the FBI has said about Leonard

18:30

and all of the various things that Leonard

18:32

got up to, you're going to have a whole

18:34

different picture.

18:36

So it's nineteen seventy two and

18:39

Leonard joins the American

18:41

Indian Movement at the behest of a guy

18:44

named Dennis Banks, and he joins

18:46

this to further

18:49

what he calls the resistance that he

18:51

started when he was nine years old at

18:54

that Indian school abusing those kids,

18:57

and he participates in something called

18:59

the Trail Broken Treaties

19:01

March again, peaceful protest

19:04

should be part of the American fabric.

19:07

He gets jammed up. I'm gonna be honest with

19:09

you. He spent most of the Occupy

19:12

Alcatraz movement

19:14

in a jail in Wisconsin, where

19:16

he was charged with attempted murder

19:19

related to another protest in Washington,

19:22

DC. He claimed he

19:24

had been set up by the police,

19:27

and that claim turned out to be

19:29

true. They were

19:31

stitching them up. As we've mentioned earlier,

19:34

it was co intelpro in

19:36

full wingspan. He makes bail

19:39

that wingspan references for you.

19:41

Nolo

19:43

before we find out, right before he gets acquitted

19:45

all that stuff, the next thing happens.

19:48

Right, Yeah, he makes bail in

19:50

nineteen seventy three spring

19:53

April, and he joins

19:55

a protest in Milwaukee, and

19:57

then he heads over to Wounded Knee

20:00

with people he's met before and

20:02

in the course of that protest movement.

20:05

This is the site of the Battle of Wounded Kney.

20:08

Yes, well, loosely, and

20:10

he hopes to he

20:13

and the group he's with hope to deliver

20:15

supplies as the siege

20:18

on Wounded Kney draws to a close.

20:20

And they also at this point, just like

20:23

in Occupy Alcatraz, they

20:25

also know there are rival factions.

20:28

There are a lot of cooks there are a lot of egos,

20:31

right, so they want to calm that down

20:33

and they want everyone to remember

20:35

the larger mission. But

20:38

by this time, by

20:40

April of nineteen seventy three, the

20:43

FEDS consider Leonard a fugitive

20:46

and he is accused of unlawful

20:48

flight to avoid that attempted

20:51

murder charge. We'll give you the high

20:53

level stuff here before we go to the atbreak. Leonard

20:56

is eventually convicted of murdering

20:59

two FBI agents. We will

21:01

give you their names as we dive

21:03

in. Aside from a brief

21:05

escape in nineteen seventy

21:08

nine, and he's convicted in nineteen

21:10

seventy seven. He's been incarcerated

21:13

ever since. Serious questions

21:16

about the legality of the trial remain,

21:19

and as we record this evening,

21:22

he is alive. His supporters

21:24

consider him the longest incarcerated

21:27

political prisoner in United

21:30

States history. So decades

21:32

later, we are

21:35

joining many people asking the question

21:38

that has haunted thousands

21:41

since Leonard's conviction. Is

21:44

this man guilty of the

21:46

crimes he was convicted for, or

21:49

has the US government yet again

21:51

in prison demand for crimes

21:53

he did not commit.

21:55

Let's take a.

21:56

Quick break and hear a word from our sponsor and

21:58

then get into the details.

22:07

Here's where it gets crazy.

22:10

It really like the crimes, whether

22:12

or not he's guilty, it depends upon whom

22:15

you ask. Officially, the US

22:17

government at every

22:19

single, again practicing

22:22

level, considers Leonard

22:24

a convicted murderer. But

22:26

here's the thing. The guy has always

22:29

maintained his innocence and

22:31

numerous supporters, including

22:33

people who were originally part of

22:35

the prosecution on his case, they

22:38

agree.

22:40

Right, And to really understand the

22:42

level of controversy surrounding this

22:44

whole case, as well as the accusations

22:47

of conspiracy, we

22:50

have to first take a look at the events that led

22:52

up to these alleged

22:55

crimes. So we've talked about this a little

22:57

bit before, but let's kind of get into some

22:59

of the minutias with the timeline

23:01

of the shootout and the murders that you

23:04

mentioned, Ben. Back in the mid nineteen seventies,

23:06

when Peltier and a handful

23:08

of other AIM members went to the

23:10

Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South

23:13

Dakota in the hopes of assisting

23:15

the Oglala Lakota in

23:18

helping to plan some community activities,

23:21

things like religious ceremonies and programs

23:24

that would help ensure their self

23:26

sufficiency and also to

23:29

help organize some teams

23:31

that could offer them security,

23:33

you know, because they frankly did

23:36

not feel particularly safe from

23:38

you know, the US government. I mean, I

23:41

want to backtrek really quickly too. I mentioned the you

23:43

mentioned Ben that he went to Wounded Knee,

23:45

and I asked that was the site of the Battle of Wounded Kni.

23:48

I just wanted to backtrack and say, it's a little

23:50

bit more like a massacre at Wounded

23:52

Kny. That is what it is referred to often

23:54

as, because it was essentially just an absolute

23:56

slaughter of Native people, you know, by

23:58

US soldiers. So the notion of needing security

24:01

to literally protect themselves from

24:04

those that might do them harm from outside their community

24:06

absolutely makes sense as precedent for it.

24:09

Yes, agreed, and think about the panthers,

24:11

you know, co intel again is flapping

24:14

its wings and sold do dads.

24:17

It is attempting to infiltrate

24:20

right, and it is also,

24:23

I would argue, under the auspice

24:25

of that

24:28

sith Lord Hoover, it is attempting

24:31

to maybe generate

24:34

conflict when conflict does not need

24:37

to exist. On June twenty

24:39

fifth, nineteen seventy five, two FBI

24:41

special agents, Ronald

24:44

Arthur Williams and Jack Ross

24:46

Kohler. They question one

24:49

of Leonard's associates, a guy named

24:51

Norman Charles, and when they talk

24:53

to him, you know, and they say, hey,

24:56

tensions are high. There's a

24:58

guy who has been accused

25:01

of assaulting to local

25:04

ranch workers. We think

25:06

he may have stolen some cowboy boots.

25:08

His name's Jimmy Eagle. Do

25:11

you know Jimmy Eagle. We think

25:13

he drives a red pickup truck,

25:16

which will be important later. And

25:18

so on the next day, on

25:21

June twenty sixth, nineteen seventy

25:23

five, these agents return

25:25

to the Pine Bridge Reservation

25:29

and they go to a place called Jumping Bull

25:31

Ranch. They are searching for this

25:33

guy, Jimmy Eagle. Sometime

25:36

after eleven am, both agents

25:39

who are by the way in plane clothing.

25:42

They are in separate on marked cars.

25:44

They start following something

25:47

we mentioned previously, a Chevy suburban

25:49

correll occupied by

25:53

letter Norman Charles and a guy named

25:55

Joe Stunts. The agents,

25:57

at this point, very important to note, are

26:00

not aware of Leonard's

26:02

outstanding warrant. They're focused

26:04

on finding this Jimmy Eagle guy

26:07

and spoiler

26:11

The FBI's official statement is

26:13

they believe that Chevy suburban belonged

26:16

to Jimmy Eagle. The

26:18

FBI's official statement as.

26:20

Of now right, and this leads

26:22

to more murky stuff, the official

26:25

story being that the Chevy made it to the Jumping

26:27

Bull ranch, whose owners

26:29

had allowed Aim to camp

26:31

out there. The three men in the suburban

26:34

stopped, got out of the vehicle and began

26:36

to exchange gunfire with federal

26:39

agents. Agent Williams radio

26:42

local dispatch, claiming the vehicle's occupants

26:44

were firing on them.

26:46

Williams says, if reinforcements

26:49

do not arrive, both he

26:52

and Kohler will be killed. And

26:54

we have to remember the context here. Tensions

26:57

had already been quite high for quite

27:00

time, and many residents

27:03

at the ranch. They heard the

27:05

gunfire, right they saw the unfamiliar

27:08

cars, They returned that gunfire.

27:11

As a result, these agents are outgunned.

27:14

We mentioned this earlier. Another

27:17

person working for the FBI, agent

27:19

Gary Adams, responded

27:22

to the call that Williams put out, which

27:24

we previously mentioned in

27:26

our American Indian Movement episode.

27:29

But he and other officers

27:32

working under the auspice of BIA,

27:35

they encountered gunfire they were held back.

27:37

They could not get to the scene on

27:40

time. So Kohler and Williams

27:43

are murdered. That is true.

27:45

Those people died, and there

27:48

are multiple suspects. There

27:50

are also multiple firearms.

27:53

However, someone has

27:55

to go down. And a side

27:57

note, the charges against

27:59

Jimmy Eagle for the assault of those

28:01

two local ranchers

28:03

and the theft of those purported boots.

28:07

Those charges are later dropped.

28:11

Jimmy Eagle is a free man.

28:13

That crazy. The whole reason for those agents

28:16

to be on that land, in that area at that time,

28:18

it just goes away. This is something

28:20

to note here. According to official

28:23

documents trial documents, the

28:25

gunfire lasted around ten minutes,

28:27

So like the firefight that happened, there

28:30

are very few shots actually fired

28:32

by these two agents. I think it was five

28:34

in total that was fired by them. But then

28:36

there were around one hundred and twenty five bullet

28:39

holes in the vehicle or vehicles.

28:42

And that's a handgun versus AR fifteen

28:45

situation.

28:46

And well there's also a shotgun that one

28:49

of the officers used, and I think a rifle

28:51

that the other officer used at least

28:53

a few times a few shots. Yeah,

28:55

But then the craziest

28:58

thing, and I think that's an important

29:00

here, is that, as you're

29:02

saying, Ben, that the other officers finally

29:04

make it to the scene right to discover the bodies,

29:07

and what they find is two

29:10

officers who've been shot multiple times in different

29:12

places in their body, but each of them

29:14

have at least one bullet to their head,

29:18

which doesn't necessarily

29:20

mean point blank execution style

29:22

shot, but these are very specific bullets

29:25

they're used, and one of the officers has two bullet

29:27

holes.

29:28

Right, which we're going to get into

29:31

in a moment there. And the only

29:33

reason I raise the point about

29:35

the AR fifteen idea is

29:37

because it does become part of

29:41

the forensic investigation, the

29:43

idea of automatic versus non automatic.

29:45

So the firearms

29:48

used by the FBI do not include

29:50

automatic weapons. Tragic

29:53

deaths, right, they are tragic.

29:56

These guys are just trying to do their

29:58

job, you know what I mean. They're not

30:00

being purposeful dicks,

30:03

right, They're following orders.

30:05

Shout out to Hannah Errand and

30:08

the banality of evil. There three

30:10

men ultimately arrested in connection

30:13

with the murder of these two FBI

30:15

agents. The first two guys

30:18

who are arrested before Leonard are

30:20

Robert Robideaux and Darrell

30:22

Butler or Dino

30:25

the I n oh, And both

30:27

of these guys are at the Jumping

30:30

Bull ranch during the time of

30:32

the shootout. And to the earlier point

30:34

made ten minutes may

30:37

sound brief, but that's actually

30:39

pretty long for the fire fight.

30:41

Oh yeah. It was described by media

30:44

at the time as lasting for hours. So

30:46

that's why that's want to make that ten minute

30:49

thing, just put it out there. At least

30:51

that's according to the FBI. The only lasted

30:53

ten minutes and to testimony given during the trial.

30:55

And ten minutes is on

30:59

the outside of plug ability because

31:01

it's not a video game. When you get tagged,

31:03

you bleed, and.

31:05

Ten minutes in bullet time feels like

31:07

ours to me.

31:08

I can't imagine well yeah, or a military

31:11

situation where there's purposeful

31:13

just firing to try and you know,

31:15

make whoever you're firing against.

31:20

Yeah, that's correct. I agree

31:22

with that. And Leonard

31:24

believes he has no chance at

31:27

a fair trial. Let's remember he

31:29

already served time for

31:32

crime that he says he never committed,

31:35

and so he flees to Canada

31:37

and goes over the northern border. He

31:40

buys a station wagon and

31:43

it's September ninth of the same

31:46

year. Ammunition in

31:48

the wagon exploded. According

31:50

to again official reports, people

31:53

discovered agent Kohler's

31:56

rifle and three oh

31:58

eight and they also found

32:01

an AR fifteen in the remains

32:03

of the vehicle. Over the years,

32:05

as we mentioned, Leonard has provided

32:08

multiple alibis, none of

32:10

which persuaded juries

32:13

were indeed the Pellet

32:16

courts, we do know he

32:19

acquired an RV, a recreational

32:21

vehicle. He made his escape,

32:23

He was stopped briefly by a state trooper

32:26

out in Oregon, and there

32:28

was an exchange of gunfire. Again,

32:31

Leonard fled on foot, and

32:34

according to the reports, Agent

32:37

Kohler's handgun was found

32:39

under the front seat of that RV,

32:43

which does mean that

32:45

there was some sort of physical

32:48

presence during the firefight, But

32:51

it does not mean he murdered those

32:53

guys.

32:54

Well, it doesn't. But what it does

32:56

mean is that it looks really bad

32:58

for Peltier right now, if you take

33:00

into account these actions. Right, that's

33:02

the second time that it's known

33:04

of by whoever's investigating this case,

33:07

that Peltier was stopped and shots

33:09

were fired.

33:10

Right.

33:11

Whether or not shots were fired that first time,

33:13

whether or not Peltier fired his

33:16

AR fifteen that they're claiming at those

33:18

two officers. Originally that's

33:21

one thing, but in this case, it's

33:23

being claimed, at least by law enforcement,

33:25

that he's fired again, this time on

33:27

a state trooper in Oregon and escaped

33:31

and or ran. This second time,

33:33

he's run from a firing

33:35

against some kind of law enforcement officer.

33:38

Further, he took a firearm.

33:41

From that agent.

33:42

Oh yeah, yeah.

33:43

But in this narrative, yes.

33:45

You're if you're lining all this stuff up, and let's

33:47

say you're an investigator hunting down whoever

33:49

killed these FBI agents, this

33:52

looks terrible for Peltier.

33:55

And so it comes as no surprise

33:58

that just before Christmas in

34:00

nineteen seventy five, on December twenty

34:02

second, Leonard Peltierra

34:05

is named on the FBI ten

34:08

Most Wanted List. Now

34:10

cast your memory back, folks, if

34:12

you grew up with shows like America's

34:15

Most Wanted, you will realize

34:18

that being on the ten most wanted

34:20

list of the FBI, it

34:23

does go a long way toward

34:25

catching people. And you

34:27

know, I'm not the biggest fan of copaganda.

34:30

I'm on record on that I think all

34:32

of us can agree, but often

34:34

when people are on that wanted list, they

34:37

deserve to be.

34:37

There often, Right, I'm

34:40

looking for the nineteen seventy five actual

34:43

list of all the other people that he shared it with.

34:47

Oh, this is what they put on his wanted

34:50

for execution type murders

34:52

of two US FBI agents related

34:54

to the American Indian Movement.

34:57

Yeah, they made sure to put the organization

35:00

that log line. And he

35:02

is arrested on February

35:04

sixth, nineteen seventy six,

35:07

in Hinton, Alberta by

35:09

the Royal Canadian Mounted

35:11

Police. We know it's a funny

35:13

name, but do take them seriously. He

35:17

is extradited

35:20

to the US in December

35:22

of that year. Now a

35:25

lot of US are hearing the timeline and

35:27

saying, hold up. Guys arrested

35:30

on February not

35:32

extradited until December.

35:35

Part of that is because there were already

35:37

claims of a stitch up, and

35:40

Canada itself, the government

35:42

of Canada, later called into

35:44

question the FBI's paperwork

35:47

which ostensibly justified

35:49

this extradition. Do we

35:52

want to talk about extradition for

35:54

a moment, Yeah?

35:55

Please, Yeah,

35:57

you can't just call a country and say,

36:00

hey, we need this guy. It's

36:03

not that simple, right.

36:04

Yeah, it involves a negotiation and bargaining

36:06

at that point. I mean, unless depending

36:09

on the laws, but usually there's like some

36:11

sort of exchange or at least there's an opportunity

36:13

for one.

36:14

Right, yeah, yeah,

36:16

you nailed it. Even if even

36:18

if you're talking about two countries

36:20

that have standing extradition

36:23

agreements that are bilateral, like

36:26

let's talk directly and let's

36:28

hunt bad guys together. Even

36:30

in those cases like the Canada,

36:33

keep it in like the Canadas or

36:36

the United States, is they

36:38

can deny a request if

36:40

something doesn't add up. In

36:43

Canada originally approved

36:45

this extradition request based

36:48

on documents submitted by

36:50

the FBI, but not

36:53

too much later or An

36:55

Almond allma

36:58

and T, Canada's solicitor

37:00

general at the time. He

37:02

stated the FBI's paperwork

37:06

simply did not match up, and

37:08

in particular, they were very concerned

37:11

about witness statements.

37:14

Oh yeah, well, there was

37:16

one one person you'll hear about a ton

37:18

in the story at least early on in this

37:21

kind of time period. Right here is

37:24

Myrtle poor bear. This is somebody

37:26

who lived around the area

37:28

where all of this went down in Pine Ridge

37:31

and at least, the affidavit

37:33

that was put forward was that

37:35

this person was Peltier's

37:38

girlfriend or yeah, I think

37:40

that's how they put it.

37:42

That was the claim.

37:43

Yeah, and knew all this information

37:45

about him, and he had admitted all these things

37:48

to her. That basically lined up exactly

37:50

with the FBI's story of how things went

37:53

down, but.

37:55

Right right. But also

37:58

side note, if you're looking for that name,

38:01

it is poor Bear, two

38:04

different words. Peltier and

38:06

others in the Pine Ridge

38:08

community seemed to unanimously

38:11

agree that, no matter what happened

38:14

during that shootout, Myrtle

38:16

Poor Bear did not in fact

38:18

know Leonard, and additionally,

38:21

despite her affidavit, was

38:23

not present during the shootout and

38:25

the subsequent murders. This falsehood

38:28

appears to be confirmed, as

38:30

Poor Bear herself later admitted

38:33

lying. And as we talk about so

38:35

often these evenings, Myrtle

38:38

Poor Bear claimed the FBI

38:41

agents interrogating her coersed

38:44

her into making these

38:46

claims, and indeed she says

38:49

they threatened her. In fact, later

38:52

Poor Bear attempts to testify

38:55

about the FBI intimidation

38:57

at Leonard's trial. How

39:00

whoever, the judge bars her testimony

39:02

on the grounds of mental incompetence.

39:05

This is disturbing, it's

39:07

crazy, it's crazy town. You can

39:10

hear her say these things on an episode

39:12

of sixty Minutes titled The Last Sue

39:14

Brave, and the

39:16

last time I saw that it aired was like nineteen ninety

39:19

two. You can find a clip of it on

39:21

YouTube, though, Do check that

39:23

out because you can just you can see her

39:25

say it directly into the camera. This is

39:28

what they did.

39:31

And for the implications,

39:33

it seems that our friends

39:35

at the FBI had already

39:38

decided Leonard would be

39:40

their sacrificial goat, their

39:42

culprit, their stone chair, and

39:45

they were fine ignoring the

39:48

mental issues documented

39:51

on poor Bear's behalf so

39:54

long as poor Bear played ball. But

39:56

they were also fine assassinating

39:59

her care character if her narrative

40:01

did not tell the story that

40:03

they wished her to tell. This

40:05

is a very dangerous thing. It is

40:08

unfortunately a common conspiracy

40:10

and law enforcement.

40:12

It is really creepy. It seems as though

40:14

somebody high up enough said

40:16

Peltier's our guy, and

40:18

let's do what we got to do to get him behind

40:21

bars. However, we, however, we.

40:22

Do that, and perhaps more

40:24

importantly, for a look at the

40:26

internal culture and ideology

40:29

the FBI. They said, two of

40:31

our guys died, so

40:33

anything that we can do

40:35

to help catch the man we

40:38

believe killed him is for

40:40

the greater good. And if you find anything

40:42

that counteracts or contradicts

40:44

that narrative, then

40:47

you should think a lot about your loyalty.

40:49

Well, and the guy's a convenient I mean, he's

40:51

a very inconvenient individual to

40:53

have out in the world because he's an activist.

40:56

He's doing all this stuff that our counter to the

40:58

goals of the kind of statu quote.

41:00

And I mean, I don't know, guys, We've all done

41:02

a lot of stories and worked on podcasts

41:05

and talked about here on this show and

41:07

others cases where Patsy's

41:10

are kind of you know, picked or identified,

41:12

and you start to kind of get a sense of some

41:15

of the criteria for that. And oftentimes

41:18

it's like a win win where it's, oh, this guy gets

41:20

to someone to pin this murder on and

41:22

also get somebody out

41:24

of the picture who you know would be a pain

41:26

in our butts.

41:27

Dude, I cannot recall who the

41:30

individual was. It was interviewed on that sixty

41:32

Minutes episode, but it was someone representing the

41:34

FBI's position, and basically

41:36

what he was saying was, look, the FBI didn't

41:39

do anything wrong in this case, but if

41:41

we did, if we did do something

41:43

wrong, it wouldn't bother my conscience at

41:46

all because we got the right guy.

41:48

Essentially, sure, big

41:51

Air quotes around right.

41:53

Yes, well exactly, but again, in this guy's

41:55

opinion, who was representing

41:57

the Bureau at the time, the

42:00

belief is already there. As you said, Ben,

42:02

the belief comes first, and then we make

42:04

the shoes fit.

42:06

Not good science, no good

42:09

law enforcement. So we know

42:11

that Leonard Peltier

42:14

fights the extradition charge,

42:17

he is not successful. At

42:19

the same time, the other two men additionally

42:22

charged in these homicides, Robert

42:24

Rubdeaux and Dino Butler,

42:27

they are acquitted on the grounds

42:30

of self defense. The jury

42:32

says the forensic evidence proves

42:35

these two guys could not have been

42:37

the ones to fatally shoot those

42:39

FBI agents, and the US government

42:41

could supply no witnesses

42:44

capable of proving those two men

42:46

knew they were firing on FBI

42:49

officers, right.

42:51

And the reasoning for this whole

42:53

thing it wasn't these two guys is because

42:55

of the two head wounds

42:58

from a two to two three tie bullet

43:00

that were found in both agents that were killed that

43:02

day, which they reasoned

43:05

at least on paper and

43:07

in the trial that was the weapon

43:09

that Peltier owned.

43:11

And as we'll see, Leonard

43:13

Peltier's trial went quite

43:15

differently. We're going to pause for a word

43:18

from our sponsors and won't be right

43:20

back. We've

43:28

returned. So

43:30

the two men of the original three

43:32

who are accused and go to trial

43:35

on these homicide charges, two

43:37

thirds of them get

43:40

acquitted. This is not the case

43:42

for Leonard. The FBI claims they

43:44

have not only forensic

43:46

evidence, but they also have eye witnesses

43:49

linking Leonard directly to the

43:51

homicide of those special agents.

43:54

In specific, the court claims the

43:56

FBI agents are murdered with close

43:59

up gunshots to the heads earlier

44:02

point. One has one

44:04

gunshot wound, another

44:06

as too, And they're

44:08

saying that according to the science, these

44:12

men were murdered wild

44:14

defenseless due to previous

44:17

wounds sustained in that shootout.

44:19

Coup de gras, right, Yeah, finishing

44:22

them off execution.

44:23

Yeah, it looks as though someone

44:26

approached the vehicle and killed them

44:28

afterwards. One of the officers had

44:30

a bullet wound in his hand that appears

44:32

to have then gone into his head, so as though

44:34

you imagine.

44:35

Something like he raised his hand to protect himself

44:37

exactly. Yeah. And because

44:39

of this, because of this evidence

44:42

presented at the trial, Leonard

44:45

is not able to

44:48

submit what we would call self defense

44:50

testimony. The idea

44:52

then is clearly, these people, whomever

44:55

they may be, whatever their providence

44:57

was, whether or not you knew they were a they

45:01

were not capable of defending themselves,

45:03

and someone executed them.

45:06

But this is the beginning the

45:08

controversy. The controversy

45:11

runs rampant, their accusations,

45:13

numerous accusations of prosecutorial

45:16

and governmental misconduct.

45:19

Two witnesses in the initial

45:21

trial that Leonard has to undergo,

45:24

they recant their statements and they

45:26

say the FBI threatened

45:29

me, they coerced me into

45:31

false testimony. Sound familiar,

45:34

shout out myrtle.

45:37

Yep MRTL by

45:39

the way, like Myrtle beach.

45:42

So what we do know is that at least one of

45:44

the way that says was given an immunity deal.

45:47

If they were to play nice and play

45:49

along with this narrative, they would be saved

45:51

from further prosecution. And

45:54

speaking of you, know changing stories

45:56

midstream. The FBI also changed their

45:59

story, changing their previous statements

46:01

during the course of the trial. We

46:04

also know that agents Williams and Coher originally

46:06

said that they were pursuing Jimmy

46:09

Eagle.

46:09

You'll recall the red pickup

46:11

truck.

46:12

He was accused of having beaten some

46:15

people up and stolen some boots. I

46:17

believe the FBI could affirm this on

46:19

the day of the shootouts.

46:21

And we only know that due to radio

46:23

intercepts from the time. By the

46:25

way, because to your point, Noel, all

46:28

right, First off, Leonard

46:30

did many things. He did not drive

46:33

a red pickup truck, and authorities

46:35

have been stopping red pickup trucks

46:37

in general in the area for weeks.

46:40

In fact, he had a Chevy Suburban, which

46:42

we outlined earlier. Chevy

46:45

Suburban. For anyone who doesn't know, it's

46:47

a large suv, even

46:49

if you're not a car person. It's difficult

46:52

to confuse that with a pickup truck because

46:55

its back half is covered,

46:57

whereas a pickup truck has an open bed.

47:00

Leonards, I would just say on that

47:03

Chevy suburban, if you look at

47:05

the actual images of it. The

47:07

FBI has some images you can

47:09

look at right now on FBI dot gov and

47:12

you just search for Resmer's R

47:14

E. S m U RS case

47:16

and you can find it. And it is just

47:19

for my own eyes and I didn't grow up. Then

47:21

this is like, I don't know exactly

47:24

what year make that

47:26

is, but it is a nineteen

47:29

sixties nineteen seventies looking suv,

47:33

So it is it does look like a truck that

47:35

has some kind of thing over

47:37

the bed. That's all I would say,

47:40

is it looks a little more just

47:42

like a truck to me because it

47:44

is that old model.

47:46

Yeah, And maybe you can help

47:48

me out with this. As a partially color

47:50

blind entity, I according

47:53

to the pictures and descriptions,

47:55

I am under the impression this was not

47:58

red. It was orange with a prom white

48:00

rooftop. Is that correct?

48:02

That's exactly right, very white right

48:04

across the top, and it is a very

48:07

red orange color, let's say.

48:10

Got it? So the FBI

48:13

to what you were saying earlier. In all, at the time of the

48:15

trial, despite their earlier

48:17

evidence, they claimed they

48:19

had not been looking for a red

48:22

pickup truck. They claimed they had been looking

48:24

for a quote, orange and white

48:26

van the entire time.

48:28

Danta da da.

48:31

N. We never lie, says Uncle Sam.

48:34

It's the truth that changes.

48:37

It is so crazy because it doesn't resemble a van

48:40

at all, even a van from that time

48:42

period.

48:43

No, and there were really cool vans

48:45

in the seventies. Now,

48:48

we talked a bit about this just

48:50

a few minutes ago. But we have

48:52

to get into

48:55

just the ballistics, right, the

48:57

claim that prosecution had

49:00

that there was an AR fifteen or

49:03

AR fifteen style thing that

49:05

fired the fatal shots. They

49:08

never correct me if

49:10

I'm wrong here. They never provide a cartridge

49:13

casings for those close

49:16

up shots. Does that mean someone

49:18

took the casings had the

49:21

wherewithal to do so?

49:22

For over one hundred bullets

49:25

fired, right, that's a little I

49:27

don't know.

49:30

They did find other casings of plenty.

49:32

Yes, but if

49:34

one of the prominent weapons that was firing those

49:37

one hundred shots was an AR style

49:39

two to two three like bullet

49:42

bullets, then it is

49:44

highly unlikely that it would just not be there. Although

49:47

if someone walked up to the car to

49:49

execute the officers, you can imagine

49:52

those particular casings. If

49:54

there's only three shots fired that we're talking about,

49:56

those reasonably at least

49:59

could be picked up right.

50:02

Yeah, plausibly possibly,

50:04

But in the heat of the moment, right at

50:07

the conclusion of a very

50:09

long firefight, with knowing

50:12

that the FBI agents also expended

50:15

case scenes, would you have would

50:18

you have the presence of mind to

50:22

pick your three?

50:24

It depends on what's happening and why. Right,

50:26

If this is like a full on execution or

50:28

a targeted killing in some way, then

50:30

maybe if this is in the heat of the moment

50:33

a firefight breaks out, probably

50:35

not like who in

50:37

that moment with all that adournaline running

50:40

is going to have that thought. This

50:42

is what the FBI's website

50:45

says, and it's talking specifically

50:47

about the AR fifteen that Peltier

50:49

owned. It says an examination

50:52

by the FBI laboratory made a positive

50:54

match with a two two three shell

50:56

casing found in the trunk of Agent Kohler's

50:59

car, So it's one of the vehicles that was

51:01

fired upon and marks

51:03

produced by the extractor

51:06

of Peltier's AR fifteen. But

51:09

listen to this, guys, no match

51:11

could be made with the firing pin quote

51:14

because it was too smooth.

51:16

Right, right, right, And we also

51:19

know that multiple

51:23

independent witnesses have found

51:25

there was no hard forensic

51:27

evidence supporting the FBI's

51:30

claims. Even here in twenty twenty

51:32

four, there were different weapons present

51:35

in the area during the shootout.

51:37

There was also more than one AR

51:39

fifteen style firearm

51:42

in the area. And just to get in front

51:44

of the emails here, an

51:47

AR fifteen itself is not a fully

51:50

automatic weapon. It's considered

51:52

semi automatic. So for

51:54

anybody who's seen maybe too

51:56

many movies and you're thinking in AR

51:59

fifteen could not do three

52:01

discrete shots, it can. And

52:05

I think that's a ghoulish but important thing

52:07

to remember. We also know

52:09

that the prosecutor wrapped

52:12

up his case by saying, we

52:15

proved that he being lettered,

52:17

went down to the bodies and executed

52:20

these two young men, and they

52:22

were young, at point blank range.

52:24

But later at the appellate hearing, the

52:27

government attorney conceded

52:29

the following, and Noel, could you do

52:32

us the honors?

52:33

Oh gosh, the dishonor.

52:35

We had a murder. We had numerous

52:37

shooters. We do not know who specifically

52:39

fired what killing shots. We

52:42

do not know quote unquote

52:44

who shot the agents.

52:48

Yeah, it's the government saying it.

52:49

It is the government saying, how do you walk

52:51

that back? It's messed up, man,

52:54

And for me, it's even further

52:57

messed up to watch

52:59

that sixty minutes episode and here

53:02

Leonard say, yeah, I fired

53:04

at those agents,

53:06

he says, He says, yeah, I fired at those agents,

53:08

but I did not kill them.

53:11

Yeah.

53:12

But in your mind you think,

53:14

well, somebody, at least on that side, somebody making

53:16

that specific quote, would think,

53:18

oh, well you you admit to firing

53:20

at them. Well that's enough, yep, and

53:23

it it's just awful.

53:26

He's always been on record saying

53:28

he participated in the firefight,

53:31

and multiple other people have because

53:33

again the context of this time,

53:36

right, we know co intel pro let's

53:39

get the all right, we got to say this. In

53:41

two thousand and four, Foy Act

53:43

goes through. There's another examination

53:46

of the original FBI ballistics

53:48

report and an impartial expert

53:50

evaluates what was referred

53:53

to earlier, that firing pin linked

53:56

to the gun that must have everybody

53:59

agrees probably was the same firearm,

54:02

so the same firearm that executed

54:05

FBI special agents Williams and Kohler.

54:08

This impartial expert finds

54:10

that cartridge cases from

54:13

the scene of the crime, when recovered,

54:15

did not come from the

54:17

rifle that was tied to Leonard Peltier.

54:20

There's just no way it could have happened

54:23

exactly well.

54:24

And also it's like, I mean, to a certain degree, when

54:27

you're exchanging in fire with these agents,

54:30

given the history and given everything

54:32

we know about the government's relationship to

54:35

these groups, it's like a.

54:37

Form of self defense in

54:39

a way.

54:40

I mean, these people are coming for you, They're

54:42

coming for what you have. It's like you

54:44

are not being treated like a

54:46

citizen, and.

54:47

You are not.

54:47

They are not your friends, they're not there to protect

54:49

you. So I just I don't even hold it against

54:52

him that he entered into a firefight because

54:54

at a certain point, you are just protecting yourself.

54:56

And he had no way of knowing who these

54:58

people were.

55:00

That's right, but even yeah, exactly, But I'm

55:02

just saying, what to Matt's point earlier in the episode,

55:04

just how this casts so much doubt

55:06

on like what is legal, who is who

55:08

are the good guys. It's just really hard,

55:11

you know, to think of like the FBI

55:13

in this case, as being out for anything

55:15

other than just protecting this legacy

55:18

that we've been describing.

55:20

I think it gets murky when you're talking about good

55:22

guys and bad guys anytime both

55:25

sides are holding guns, right,

55:27

oh oh.

55:28

Boy, fog of war, I think they call it right.

55:30

Well, yeah, And I want to bring something in here,

55:32

just because we're in the timeline in the two

55:35

thousands now, but in

55:37

the I think it was in the nineties,

55:39

there was this person that came forward and gave

55:41

an interview. I think it was to Peter Matheson

55:44

who called himself mister X. He

55:47

gave an interview on camera where he covered

55:49

his face, they altered his voice, and

55:51

he gives a first person view

55:56

of him killing these two

55:58

FBI agents. He said, I

56:00

approached the wounded agents. One of

56:02

them brought up a pistol and fired it at me.

56:04

I didn't give him a chance to fire again. I

56:07

shot him.

56:08

The other one and pulls up the hand.

56:09

I immediately turned and put

56:12

two bullets in the other agent because

56:14

I didn't think I just shot the other agent. This

56:16

is a person that was never

56:19

verified. And then it came forward that this person

56:21

appears to have been lying, and it was,

56:24

at least according to the FBI, it

56:26

was a lie.

56:29

And if you want to learn more about the

56:31

Foyer request that we're talking

56:33

about, check out who is Leonard Peltier

56:36

dot info. You can

56:39

read the fullness there, and I appreciate

56:42

the point also about

56:44

the questionable witness testimony,

56:47

which we see again. Whenever you hear

56:49

somebody doing the part

56:51

of voice with their facial pixelated,

56:55

you have to wonder.

56:58

That's it.

56:58

Oh yeah, no, for sure. Well and in the sixty

57:01

minutes episode as well, just sorry, last piece

57:03

on this. You can hear you

57:05

hear the host ask Leonard,

57:08

did you kill those agents? He says

57:10

no. He says do you know

57:12

who killed those agents? And Leonard's

57:15

response is, I can't tell you. I'm

57:17

not a rat, I'm not an informant.

57:20

We believed in what we were fighting for. I

57:22

lived it, I experienced it, I witnessed.

57:24

It, which is very much an answer

57:26

to a different question. And

57:28

that is honestly a little

57:31

bit of media training there, because

57:34

you know, if you have ever been in media

57:36

training, up to and including

57:39

your favorite politicians, the

57:42

rule of thumb is always answer the question

57:44

you wish you were asked.

57:47

It's a man who's also, more or less,

57:49

as much as this could be possible, made

57:51

peace with his fate, you

57:53

know, like this, I am in prison. This is

57:56

my contribution to the movement is

57:58

not ratting some money out or

58:00

not, you know what I mean, like taking one for the team

58:02

more or less.

58:03

I'm glad you mentioned that because

58:06

maybe not in the same spirit. But we're going

58:09

to end on a couple of things before

58:11

we get to this. We have to note

58:14

everything that you were taught

58:17

as a US resident about

58:19

the justice system. In theory

58:22

teaches us and a person

58:24

is innocent until proven guilty

58:27

or wealthy at some point

58:30

I walk down the street from that one. We're going to keep

58:32

it at some point. Ideology

58:35

and group think aside. We

58:37

have to ask why this individual

58:41

in specific was

58:43

chosen as the

58:46

evidence aside the murderer of

58:49

two FBI special agents, Why

58:51

did that happenqu bono, Who does it benefit?

58:54

I think it's time we reintroduce

58:57

our buddies, that counter and

58:59

Tetelligence.

59:00

Program co

59:02

intel pro for short.

59:05

Yeah, it's such a terrible ACRES

59:07

because they just capitalized the C and

59:09

the O encounter and then the

59:12

intel and intelligence.

59:14

It's barely an acronym. It's kind of like

59:16

a missmash rely.

59:18

I mean, they could have called it under Jens

59:20

Graham, but they went with

59:22

co intel Pro.

59:24

Yeah. Well, it's you

59:26

know it. Well, this is what we've got.

59:28

So co Intel pro is, of course the infamous street

59:30

name for the counter intelligence program. As you

59:32

said, Ben meant to their

59:34

mission, should they choose to

59:36

accept it, and they did, was to expose, disrupt,

59:38

misdirect, discreditor, otherwise neutralize

59:41

inconvenient individuals.

59:44

Yeah, and which includes just people that

59:46

they put on a official rabble

59:49

Rouser index that was floated

59:51

around every field office the FBI

59:54

ran, which is just it just it's

59:56

a list. They just got bigger and bigger and bigger of people

59:58

who either talked to much or

1:00:00

were a part of some group they didn't like, or

1:00:03

were highly influential in bringing members

1:00:05

into those groups.

1:00:06

Or just vegans, just vegans,

1:00:09

Pete Seeger, you know.

1:00:10

Think think John Lennon, you know,

1:00:13

I mean that level of outspoken,

1:00:16

you know, public figure.

1:00:18

Bob Dylan, notorious communist,

1:00:21

you know, shadows of McCarthy, shout out

1:00:23

to the red scare. And also I'm not joking

1:00:25

about vegans. Some people got

1:00:28

popped or observed, monitored,

1:00:31

came to attention because of their

1:00:33

dietary habits alone.

1:00:35

Yeah, or Martin Luther King, notorious

1:00:39

you know, aggressive person who

1:00:42

just wanted he walked around the country

1:00:44

and just talked about you need to shoot people, right,

1:00:46

Oh no, no, he talked about what you need to come

1:00:48

together and uh, you know, be

1:00:51

kind and peaceful. But he was on that list,

1:00:53

and it was he got targeted by this, by

1:00:56

this whole system for a long time.

1:00:58

I think it wasn't just his civil

1:01:01

rights work. I think it was the extenuation

1:01:03

of that into questioning

1:01:06

the class system of

1:01:09

a country that often

1:01:11

purports itself to be a meritocracy.

1:01:13

In past episodes as well as interview

1:01:15

segments, we've explored

1:01:19

what we call the mission creep of

1:01:21

co Intel Pro and related

1:01:24

subsidiary operations.

1:01:27

I think it's because he questioned the Vietnam War.

1:01:29

I think that's a huge part of it, and

1:01:32

I think in doing so, doctor

1:01:34

King also questioned

1:01:37

the inherent and visible class

1:01:39

system of the United States.

1:01:42

Right. Oh yeah, he

1:01:44

said there are more of us than there

1:01:46

are of them.

1:01:47

Oh what's he saying?

1:01:50

Right? And this is where

1:01:52

we go to the official ending

1:01:54

of co Intel Pro April of

1:01:57

nineteen seventy one.

1:01:58

Finally we're past that.

1:02:00

Right. We are on record

1:02:02

as well here at stuff

1:02:04

they don't want you to know, saying that the name

1:02:07

may have changed, yet the methods

1:02:09

exist. They simply evolved.

1:02:12

You know, like, what's that? What's that? Merk

1:02:14

squad? Blackwater?

1:02:17

Wait a damn I wait,

1:02:20

academy, academy.

1:02:26

That dude's going around having weird meetings,

1:02:28

you guys trying to convince, trying

1:02:31

to trying to convince world leaders

1:02:33

that hey, why don't you just let us handle

1:02:35

it because you know we're not a part of your

1:02:38

military or their military or

1:02:40

that military.

1:02:41

Right right? Yeah, well Wagner left

1:02:43

a vacuum. Yeah, so shout

1:02:45

out to mister prince.

1:02:47

Uh

1:02:49

dude, just think about go and tell pro right now, Like

1:02:52

with those the requests that you could put into

1:02:54

Verizon or Exfinity

1:02:57

or any.

1:02:59

Well, think about this too. Why

1:03:01

aren't we democratizing the

1:03:03

obsessive surveillance state? What

1:03:06

happened to co intel? Amateur? You

1:03:08

know what I mean? I want to hear Cointel open

1:03:10

mic, co Intel, bro

1:03:13

co Hotel, bro Co Hotel, am

1:03:16

Why are we bringing this up now? It tells us

1:03:18

a great deal about the context surrounding

1:03:20

the FBI's behavior toward Aim and

1:03:23

ultimately toward Leonard. In particular,

1:03:26

FBI deployed all the co Intel

1:03:28

practices against AM, one

1:03:30

of the first being the wholesale, the

1:03:35

wholesale hoovering of

1:03:38

leadership not

1:03:40

proud of it, yeah

1:03:43

right, and incarcerating

1:03:45

these leaders by hooker by crook. For

1:03:47

grassroots organizations, this

1:03:50

is also a death by a thousand

1:03:52

cuts. You see big corporations

1:03:54

doing this as well. Like if

1:03:56

you want to fight a

1:03:59

DuPont, if you want

1:04:01

to fight you know, like other whistleblowers

1:04:04

we've talked about in the past, a big oil,

1:04:07

a big pharma, then their first

1:04:09

move is to tie you up in court

1:04:11

in a way that bleeds you dry.

1:04:15

So then the fact that you're telling the truth

1:04:17

doesn't matter because you don't have

1:04:19

the money for the lawyers.

1:04:23

Dang.

1:04:24

That's not to mention a group called the Church

1:04:26

Committee, which had intended to

1:04:28

investigate aim as another

1:04:31

dissident group targeted by the

1:04:33

FBI. Witnesses have been

1:04:35

investigated by congressional staff

1:04:37

and called to give testimony,

1:04:39

but one day after this

1:04:42

firefight in question here, the Church

1:04:44

Committee canceled those hearings.

1:04:47

There was something coming, something wicked.

1:04:50

Something in the wind. Yeah,

1:04:53

and the Church Committee did

1:04:56

a good job on other things, but you

1:04:58

could argue they did to due

1:05:01

diligence on the case

1:05:03

of Leonard and the case

1:05:05

of the American Indian Movement.

1:05:08

The political cost perhaps

1:05:10

got too high for them. As we're recording

1:05:13

now, Leonard is alive.

1:05:15

He is serving two consecutive life

1:05:18

sentences. As of September

1:05:21

of twenty twenty four, he turned

1:05:23

eighty years old. As of last month,

1:05:25

he is eighty years old, and he has spent

1:05:27

the majority of his life in

1:05:29

prison. And I suggest that

1:05:31

our most important last word

1:05:34

for this episode is not our own.

1:05:36

I think we read an excerpt

1:05:39

from the elder himself. You

1:05:41

can find his full statement

1:05:44

on his birthday over

1:05:47

at places like MR Online,

1:05:50

Letter M Letter, R Online.

1:05:54

We hope you do check it out. This

1:05:56

is a piece of a longer

1:05:58

thing. But gentlemen, I suggest

1:06:01

we round Robin and Matt. Do

1:06:03

you want to start us off?

1:06:04

Of course, so these are Leonard's

1:06:07

words, My friends, I

1:06:09

need you to fight for you. Police

1:06:11

are beating children in the streets. The

1:06:14

Parole Commission still illegally

1:06:16

holds many of us long past our release

1:06:18

dates. The Supreme Court has

1:06:20

made it impossible for people to challenge

1:06:23

wrongful convictions. And let's

1:06:25

just put this in there. His first habeas

1:06:27

corpus that he put

1:06:30

forward was in nineteen eighty two, before

1:06:32

I was born, and he's still fighting

1:06:34

for this.

1:06:36

Yeah, Indigenous people are still

1:06:38

being forced from our land.

1:06:40

We protect Mother Earth.

1:06:41

They have stripped her bear and now

1:06:44

want our resources. Our

1:06:46

people go missing at a staggering

1:06:48

rate, and no one blinks.

1:06:52

And please read the full We're

1:06:54

going to end with this excerpt. The

1:06:56

elder continues. We are awaiting

1:06:58

the Huru verdict to deta German whether

1:07:00

free speech exists, a verdict that

1:07:02

may well come down on my eightieth

1:07:05

birthday, and I am still in prison.

1:07:07

The Constitution reads, we the

1:07:10

people. We must tell those in power

1:07:13

we are the people.

1:07:17

Sobering words. On

1:07:19

July second, twenty twenty four, Leonard

1:07:22

was again denied parole despite

1:07:24

multiple activist groups seeking clemency.

1:07:27

If you'd like to learn more about

1:07:29

Leonard Peltier's ongoing

1:07:32

case, check out podcasts like

1:07:34

Wondery's Leonard Political Prisoner.

1:07:37

Red Nation has a great interview

1:07:39

with FBI agents who are close to

1:07:41

the case. If you'd like to learn more

1:07:43

about other controversial

1:07:46

cases of people who may have been swallowed

1:07:48

by a system, check out our friends at

1:07:50

Wrongful Conviction and we

1:07:53

talked about this a little. If you would like

1:07:55

to write to Elder

1:07:58

Leonard Peltier directly, his

1:08:00

address is the following.

1:08:02

Leonard Peltier p E L T I

1:08:05

E R number eight nine six

1:08:07

three seven DASH one three two

1:08:10

USP Coleman one, US

1:08:12

Penitentiary, pobox one

1:08:14

zero three to three Coleman, Florida

1:08:17

three three five two one.

1:08:20

He can only receive letters, cards,

1:08:22

postcards, no polaroid photos,

1:08:25

and he can get money orders for commissary

1:08:28

accounts. We do have it on good

1:08:30

authority that he responds

1:08:32

to all of his mail.

1:08:36

Thank you so much for tuning in, folks. Again,

1:08:38

we cannot over recommend the

1:08:40

fantastic work that has

1:08:42

been done by many justice

1:08:45

organizations, law enforcement

1:08:47

professionals, and countless others who,

1:08:49

as individuals or as institutions

1:08:52

continue to ask the hard questions

1:08:55

about this case. So let us

1:08:57

know your thoughts. We try to be easy to

1:08:59

find online.

1:09:00

You can find us the handle conspiracy Stuff

1:09:02

where we exist on Facebook.

1:09:04

We have our Facebook group.

1:09:05

Here's when it gets crazy, join up chat

1:09:07

with your fellow conspiracy realists there.

1:09:10

You can let's find us that handle on x FKA,

1:09:12

Twitter as well as YouTube, and we have a

1:09:15

cavalcade of video delights

1:09:17

awaiting you if you want to find us

1:09:19

on Instagram and TikTok. However, we are conspiracy

1:09:22

stuff show on those platforms.

1:09:24

Oh yes, this is a really tough one for me.

1:09:27

Guys. Nobody looks good

1:09:29

in this, in that whole situation. But

1:09:32

injustice is injustice, and we

1:09:34

want to know what you think about it. Please

1:09:37

give us a call. Our number is one eight

1:09:39

three three std WYTK.

1:09:43

When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname

1:09:45

and let us know if we can use your name and message

1:09:47

on the air. If you've got more to say than

1:09:49

can fit in that voicemail, why not instead

1:09:52

send us a good old fashioned email.

1:09:54

We are the entities that

1:09:56

read every piece of correspondence

1:09:58

we receive, and no word worries. If

1:10:01

you don't care for phones, no worries.

1:10:03

If you don't care for sipping the social

1:10:05

meds, We've got your back with this email.

1:10:07

Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes

1:10:11

the void writes back. As a matter of

1:10:13

fact, we're thinking about

1:10:15

some of you right now. So stay

1:10:17

tuned. Join us out here in the

1:10:19

dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio

1:10:22

dot com.

1:10:42

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