0:01

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production

0:03

of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

0:11

and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

0:13

and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry

0:15

over there, and this is Stuff you

0:17

Should Know. Another

0:19

prison edition. We're starting to fill

0:22

it out a little bit. I don't know. I don't remember

0:24

even talking about this in our prison episode. Did

0:27

we There's just no way

0:29

we didn't mention it. Somehow we

0:31

certainly didn't go into depth. I remember wanting

0:33

to do this for a while, um

0:36

and looking into it before and being like, oh, it's

0:38

not really a thing. Luckily

0:40

you put um Julia Layton on it and

0:43

she did a little more digging and it turned

0:45

out it was, um kind of

0:47

a human rights criminology

0:49

thing. Yeah, but

0:51

you're sort of right that it's not really much of a thing,

0:54

which is sad. I've learned. Yeah,

0:58

I think so, I think any Yeah,

1:00

I think we'll get to it. But yes, I'm in favor

1:02

of um extended

1:05

family visits, which may or may not include

1:08

sex. Yeah,

1:12

I got that from uh now. Hob

1:15

Goblins and the Mystery Science Theater

1:17

three thousand version of hob goblins. It's

1:20

it's pretty great. Just just go check

1:23

it out. It will show up eventually. Yeah.

1:26

Well, I mean you mentioned um

1:28

sexy time, and I think when you think of

1:30

conjugal visits, m'st

1:32

the ford. I mean, that's originally what

1:34

it was. And we'll get to the history. But that's the first

1:37

thing you probably think of, is a

1:39

time set aside at a certain place

1:42

at a prison. Probably not you

1:45

know, a separate building at a prison

1:47

where uh, and you generally think

1:49

of like a wife going to have sex with her inmate

1:52

husband. Yeah. And in fact, I mean that's

1:54

actually pretty good term

1:57

for it, because in in biology,

2:00

to conjugate means to um

2:02

become temporarily united in order

2:04

to exchange genetic material. Man,

2:08

if that's not a clinical term, I

2:10

have never heard one before.

2:13

It there with mouth parts, I mean yeah, it does.

2:16

Um, everybody's heard of conjugal

2:19

visits. I mean, like it's just kind of like this legendary

2:21

mythological thing. Like if you've ever seen a Bugs

2:23

Bunny cartoon from the forties, you know about conjugal

2:25

visits. You know what I mean. No,

2:28

I'm just kidding. But you can see

2:30

it though, couldn't you? Wouldn't that be like one of those random

2:32

things whereas an adult you went back and you're like, I

2:35

can't believe, like this is part of this cartoon.

2:38

I think I would be surprised if Bugs Bunny featured

2:41

prison or sex. So yeah, I'd be pretty

2:43

surprised, all right, I guarantee prisons

2:45

made an appearance. But the thing

2:47

is is, there does seem to be like a

2:50

huge misunderstanding about conjugal

2:52

visits or an understanding about them,

2:54

but then a complete lack of understanding

2:56

about how much further these visits

2:59

go um and and

3:01

actually I think that that kind of has

3:03

led to their decline because

3:05

you need public support to keep something like that

3:07

up, because it's really easy to get rid of

3:09

if you are are so

3:12

minded, it's very easy to get rid

3:14

of. And as you'll see or

3:16

you know or here, uh, that's

3:18

been happening over the course of the past twenty

3:21

years in a big way, and a

3:23

big reason is because what you mentioned

3:25

earlier, what we're really talking about these

3:28

days in the United States, and

3:30

we'll get to other countries. Other countries are like bring

3:33

it, do it six ways to Sunday

3:35

a couple of times a month, but

3:38

no, like we really have to watch. Um. They're

3:41

they're called extended family visits.

3:44

UH. In New York they're called family reunion

3:46

visits. And it's really

3:48

easy for a politician of

3:51

a certain kind of politician that

3:53

doesn't want this kind of thing going on,

3:56

to just lump it in there as you

3:58

know, your taxpayer dollar are going

4:00

toward uh, these hardcore

4:03

criminals just being able to have sex, and like,

4:05

why would we support that? They can

4:07

go not the case, They can say watch this,

4:09

I'm physically conservative and tough on criminals.

4:12

And then the people say how much

4:14

did you save? And they go, yeah,

4:16

well, let's get to that too. So

4:19

let's talk about, um, how we'll

4:22

explain how how much beyond what

4:24

the public's understanding of conjugal visitor

4:26

that it goes. But let's talk about the origins of these

4:29

things. You want to Yeah, the

4:31

basically racist origins. In

4:34

Mississippi, uh, Mississippi

4:36

State penn In the early nineteen hundreds, there

4:38

was a for profit labor camp called

4:41

Parchment Farm where the

4:44

UH warden basically said, you

4:46

know what, Um, everybody

4:48

knows that that black

4:50

men have an insatiable sex

4:53

drive, and that's one reason they're in

4:55

here to begin with. So if we get

4:57

these guys having a little bit of sex

5:00

as an incentive, then they're gonna

5:02

work harder for us and increase our profits.

5:05

That that's the origin of conjugal

5:07

visits period. Really,

5:10

that's it. And so this warden started

5:13

this program UM at Parchment,

5:15

which became I believe the Mississippi State

5:17

Penitentiary UM.

5:20

And this was in what en

5:23

Uh yeah, nineteen eighteen is when he started

5:25

bringing in sex workers, right, and

5:28

you just hit the nail on the head as

5:30

it were, UM on Sundays. Last

5:33

on Sundays, the warden would bring

5:35

in UM sex workers for to

5:38

um lay with the inmates

5:42

and do more than just laying. Yeah, Like married,

5:45

not a problem, Single, not a problem. We

5:47

got the shack out in the back and

5:50

uh, you know, I don't

5:52

know if you want to be like tenth on that list for the

5:54

day, but that's uh,

5:56

that's how we're gonna do things around here. Yeah,

5:58

and like that, you were right about the racist

6:00

origins of it, because it wasn't until twelve

6:03

years after that program was instituted that it

6:05

was extended to white inmates.

6:07

And then it wasn't another I

6:10

think fifty four years before it was finally

6:12

extended to female to women femine

6:14

female inmates. UM.

6:17

And along the way, what's crazy is

6:19

between that that gulf of time nineteen

6:22

eighteen and in nineteen seventy two

6:24

when women were first became eligible in Mississippi

6:26

for conjugal visits, it underwent

6:29

this kind of like surprising

6:32

enlightenment transition to where

6:34

there was a nineteen sixty

6:37

six maybe study that

6:39

was done on it, and in the notes on the study,

6:41

like some criminologist or or

6:43

um Corrections official basically

6:45

said, you know, this is possibly

6:48

one of the most enlightened programs

6:50

in in the entire Corrections

6:54

UM field, in the entire country

6:56

Mississippi. What grew out of

6:58

their racist conjugal visit program became

7:01

something like genuinely enlightened,

7:03

which was pretty interesting. Yeah, and we should

7:05

note that, UM in nineteen sixty

7:07

three is when they were

7:10

not bringing in sex sex workers. At that point

7:12

you had to be married and it had to be your

7:14

spouse. Uh. And that's

7:16

an important distinction. But for you know, forty five

7:19

years, it seems like they

7:21

were bringing in every Sunday sex workers

7:23

too, too, I guess, um.

7:26

Yeah, to to incentivize these guys. Yeah,

7:30

right, right, And so I think that's where the

7:32

transition came, where it became enlightened as

7:34

it went from an incentive to get them to work

7:36

harder because Parchment was a for profit

7:38

prison labor camp, which, by

7:41

the way, if you're if you're like, what

7:43

is that, go watch the Ava

7:47

du verne Um documentary and the Thirteenth

7:49

Amendment, one of the most mind altering

7:52

documentaries you will ever see. Really really

7:54

well done, but really kind of drives home

7:57

the idea of prison labor is an

7:59

extension of slavery. But that was what

8:01

this was. This was Jim Crow slavery. It was

8:03

legal slavery after slavery was abolished,

8:06

And so the whole thing was to get these

8:08

inmates to work harder. But then over time

8:11

they said, well, no, wait a minute, maybe this is actually

8:13

like good for society. Weirdly,

8:15

it's going to keep these family

8:18

ties between the inmates and the

8:20

people they've been separated from, you

8:23

know, just linked enough that

8:25

when they go back out on the outside, they're not just

8:27

gonna go back to a life of crime. They're still gonna have these

8:29

relationships that they had before they went in. Yeah,

8:32

and so you know, as as

8:34

everyone knows, as things go in Mississippi,

8:36

they generally follow in the rest of the United States.

8:40

And extended visitation is

8:42

what they were calling it. Well, I guess they call it conjugal

8:44

visits. But um, in the sixties

8:47

is when it started to spread to more and more

8:50

states around the United States.

8:52

I think California in South

8:54

Carolina had programs in the late

8:56

sixties. New York and Minnesota

8:58

jumped on board in the seven these I think

9:01

in the eighties, Uh, some other

9:03

states, New Mexico and Wyoming got

9:05

on board, and then I

9:07

guess we would call it the Golden Age of conjugal

9:10

visits. In the early nineties

9:12

there were seventeen states

9:15

that allowed some sort of extended visitation.

9:18

Yeah, but so that was the peak.

9:20

And one of the reasons the early nineties

9:22

were the peak was because about

9:24

the early eighties, UM,

9:26

the United States said, you know what, this

9:28

whole like rehabilitation

9:30

thing that's kicked off in the fifties,

9:33

This idea that prison was meant to rehabilitate

9:35

people and turn them into better citizenis it didn't

9:38

work. And we think it's all a bunch

9:40

of who we and UM we're

9:42

going to abandon that and get tough on

9:44

crime. And that's what happened. I

9:46

mean throughout the eighties and the nineties,

9:49

we got super tough on crime, super

9:51

conservative about how we treat criminals

9:53

and prisoners. And the idea became,

9:56

if you were in prison, you were in

9:58

there for a reason, and you you

10:00

should not have any kind of frills

10:02

or um or moments of joy.

10:04

You're supposed to be in there to be punished, maybe

10:07

to reflect on what you did wrong, but

10:09

at the really ultimately this

10:12

is punishment. And um, we're not going

10:14

to treat you like a human being

10:16

any longer you're a prisoner. It's a different kind

10:18

of person. And part of that is taking away

10:20

conjugal visits. Right, And that

10:23

line of thinking, like you said, was

10:25

a pretty big sea change in and

10:27

now we don't have crime. Right, it

10:29

worked. New Gingrich's plan worked.

10:33

Should we take a boy, I think we should take a break on

10:35

New Gingrich. Right, let's all

10:37

take a break on New Ingra. Let's take a little break

10:39

and we'll be back right after this. Alright,

11:04

Chuck, so um,

11:07

let's talk a little bit about like what these things

11:09

evolved too along the way, because if

11:11

you're just sitting there like, Okay, so prisoners

11:13

can't have sex anymore, that's really

11:15

not the end of the world to me. Well,

11:18

prepare for your heart to bleed a little more than

11:20

it is right now, because over

11:22

time, these conjugal visits developed

11:24

into order, like you said, called

11:26

extended family visits or family reunion

11:29

visits, and they involved not

11:31

just spouses, um,

11:33

but also kids. Um.

11:36

The parents of the inmate

11:38

might come to visit, UM, siblings

11:40

might come to visit, and there was no sex

11:42

involved. It was family time.

11:45

Like that was the point of the whole thing, was to

11:47

spend time with family. And Um.

11:49

If you read some of the accounts of

11:52

the children of inmates who

11:54

have memories of going to these

11:56

extended family visits, um,

11:58

they formed these are like the memories of their

12:01

lifetime, Like these are some of their best childhood

12:03

memories. Ironically enough, Yeah,

12:05

and you know, the whole purpose here is is primarily

12:08

twofold, which is incentive.

12:10

It's still an incentive to get inmates to

12:12

follow the rules because as you'll see

12:14

as we detail the stuff, um,

12:18

you really really have to follow the rules. Like

12:20

very few prisoners are even eligible

12:22

for this kind of thing. Um. And

12:25

then the other thing is, you know, just to

12:27

foster that family tie so

12:29

once you get out, you don't

12:31

have that that cliche you see

12:34

in the movie where you come home from prison and

12:36

you have these strangers sitting

12:38

in your house that are your children, and

12:40

there's at least some small

12:43

modicum of

12:45

of a relationship of some sort of a tie

12:48

emotional tie with a parent

12:50

and a child or like you said, the

12:52

parent of the inmate, or you

12:54

know, spouses. They're still involved obviously, So

12:57

when they get out, the idea is that they

12:59

have of a support system. They're

13:01

waiting on them and not like, well

13:04

now I have the super awkward uh

13:06

moment where I have to come in and and get to know

13:08

my teenage children, right, or

13:11

you know, like this is really hard on me. I

13:13

think I'm going to go

13:15

back to crime or go back to addiction

13:18

or whatever. So the idea that there's

13:20

this structure that remains in place and solid

13:23

during their imprisonment, that the

13:25

the thought is that that just helps them

13:28

ease into normal society afterwards.

13:30

Yeah, like we really need

13:32

to drive that home because I think the way I said it,

13:35

there might be people saying, well, so what if it's

13:37

super awkward. You shouldn't have committed the crime. It's

13:40

not that it can be so awkward

13:42

enough putting that it can. It

13:44

can cause someone like you said, to not

13:47

go home and to not want to face

13:49

their family that they don't know, and

13:51

all of a sudden, they're they're alone out there.

13:53

And as we'll see, we have statistics to back

13:56

it up. Recidivism is UH

13:58

is a big problem in this really really

14:00

helps. It's also a bone head word. It

14:02

is a bone head word. The thing is too

14:04

is also it's not necessarily even just awkward

14:07

for him, but there's there's expectations

14:10

that are on them when

14:12

they come back home. They have people that they're accountable

14:14

to, which helps that transition

14:17

because you know, and you can imagine that the transition

14:19

that period immediately after

14:22

prison life into normal society.

14:24

I'm not sure if it's weeks or months, maybe

14:27

longer. Um that is the the

14:29

most difficult part of getting back into

14:31

society. And so have a family and a home

14:34

to go to that that just changes things. They

14:36

make movies about it, they do,

14:38

and bugs money cartoons. So

14:42

here's UH, and we'll get to some of these

14:44

stories two in a second. But here's how it works

14:46

depending on where you are. Um,

14:48

because it's different at every prison in every

14:51

state has their own. And I think we should

14:53

also point out that it's only state prisons

14:55

where it's even allowed at all, Like if you're in

14:57

federal prison, there isn't anything

14:59

like that from what I could find. Yeah,

15:02

but um, they try

15:04

to set it up. I mean it depends on whether

15:07

there's a uh like a

15:09

shack in the back or a trailer

15:11

sometimes. Um, I think

15:13

they try to make them a little homier these days,

15:16

and what they're looking to do is sort of recreate

15:19

some sense of normalcy over the one

15:21

to four days that you're allowed to be with your family.

15:24

Uh. This one in Connecticut, McDougall Walker Correctional

15:27

Institution. I think it's the biggest prison

15:29

in the New England area. They have a

15:31

full on, like two bedroom apartment with a

15:34

kitchen and they can bring in food and cook meals

15:36

together and watch movies. I

15:39

think they they have like stock

15:41

DVDs and stuff like that. Um, but I

15:43

think you are allowed to even bring in Everything

15:46

is heavily inspected, of course, but you are allowed to bring in

15:48

food to cook like your favorite family meal.

15:50

They're not just like, well, here's what you got from the prison

15:52

pantry. Yeah, that's what I um

15:55

saw as well. And I think more than just

15:57

um, I think that's part part

16:00

an economical decision too,

16:03

because they also charge. Um there's

16:05

you know, it can be a nominal fee, like in I

16:07

think New York maybe or Washington.

16:10

I think Washington, it's like ten dollars

16:12

a visit or something like that. But

16:14

um, you know, every penny counts in some

16:17

of the budget

16:19

deficited prisons in the United

16:21

States. UM, so they do kind of count

16:23

those pennies. But more more to the point,

16:26

the point of bringing in outside

16:28

food is to create that sense of normalcy

16:30

for the family. Um.

16:32

It's basically like a staycation on

16:35

prison grounds is what I

16:37

what like, ideally is what I got from

16:39

from the research I did. Yeah, and

16:42

if if the prisoner's favorite dessert

16:44

is uh, fingernail file

16:46

cake, that's what they're getting.

16:48

That can't be helped talk about

16:51

a movie trope. Has that ever happened in

16:53

the history of the world. I don't know. We gotta

16:55

find out now, though you just threw down the gauntlet

16:57

like a prison a fingernail file

16:59

being snuck in a cake and that leading

17:02

to an escape. I think

17:04

it's I think it's probably never happened. We'll find

17:06

out. That reminds me that I've been wanting

17:08

to do an episode on the Three Stooges that

17:10

maybe a two parter. Okay,

17:13

that's a prepare for

17:16

no women to listen. It's so

17:18

great, they're so good man. Yeah, it's

17:20

kind of a dude's thing, though maybe we'll change

17:22

that with our episodes. There there should have been

17:24

a counterpart, Yeah, you

17:27

know, I wonder if there was. I'm

17:29

sure they tried that out at some point during

17:31

the middle. Well, I think the idea

17:33

of a show with three women that are morons

17:36

that just kind of abuse each other physically was

17:39

probably not very realistic or believable,

17:41

not like the real studoges. And how realistic

17:43

that was, right, man, Seriously,

17:46

I watched that sometimes still today and it's

17:49

classic. Yes, it it really

17:51

is, and for a good reason. It's it's

17:54

hilarious, but also just so well choreographed

17:56

and those dudes worked hard. We

17:59

should totally do a an episode

18:01

on that. So.

18:03

Um So, while while you've got

18:06

this staycation going on with your

18:08

family, with your children, with your wife

18:10

or your husband, um, and

18:13

you're you're having a good time, you're

18:15

relaxing. Um.

18:18

Every four hours, depending on where you are,

18:20

there's probably going to be a visit from a guard

18:22

that says, hey, I gotta search some stuff.

18:25

Because it's it's important to point

18:27

out like this is not it's

18:30

not like this. This occurs on the prison

18:32

grounds. It's part of prison. It's

18:34

just a modified part of prison.

18:36

So there's plenty of rules and restrictions

18:39

that that are meant to keep security

18:41

tight, prevent contraband from

18:44

being transferred from you know, the visitors

18:46

to the inmate um,

18:48

and uh, to just kind of keep things

18:50

on the up and up basically, Yeah, like,

18:52

uh, for instance, you can't just waltz in

18:55

there, like if you've got a new uh

18:58

sexy penpal in um

19:00

he said, well, I want to get a visit from this person. Now, you

19:02

can't just waltz in there as a first timer and

19:06

pop in and have a conjugal visit or even a

19:08

family visit, whatever you want to call it. You

19:10

have to have it.

19:12

I mean, it depends on where you are again, but like in New York,

19:14

you have to have been at least a

19:17

visitor standard visitor, three other

19:19

times in the previous twelve months.

19:22

So you have to be someone they know, someone

19:24

who has proven to be you know, a

19:26

real like connection

19:29

in your life. Um, you have

19:31

to undergo health screening. And this is everyone

19:33

like kids, anyone that's gonna stay in

19:35

this apartment. Um, you're gonna

19:37

get health screened. Obviously for conjugal

19:39

visit, you're gonna get STD tested.

19:42

Um. Like you mentioned, it depends on where

19:44

you are. Lots of searches. Um.

19:46

I don't know if I know, California was every four

19:49

hours, but I imagine they'd like to spring

19:51

those on you as well. Yeah,

19:53

I would guess so too. Not like they'll be back in four

19:56

hours for the next one. I could kind of see

19:58

like guards look king

20:00

the other way or going kind of easy on these

20:02

things, Like I could. I could.

20:04

It just seems from every account that

20:06

I've read, it seems like an

20:09

overbearing, mean guard is

20:11

not the kind of guard they would put on this detail.

20:14

It just doesn't seem like it fits this whole

20:16

vibe because, like you said, the the um,

20:20

the people who are eligible for this are

20:22

like the the model

20:24

of the model inmates, like

20:26

they've really worked for this. Yeah,

20:29

so only state prisons. Uh you

20:31

are. They're currently only

20:33

allowed in seven states, down

20:35

from it's heyday in uh the early

20:37

nineties of seventeen. And

20:40

you have to or I guess it's UM.

20:42

They set it up so you're highly incentivised

20:44

to do other jobs and other programs

20:47

in order to get these conjugal visits. So you

20:50

have to like maybe do us Uh you're

20:52

involved in a school or a work based program,

20:55

some kind of reentry program, and you've

20:57

got to show that you've done that and you've been successful

21:00

in that. Obviously the behavior

21:02

like you can't have any things on your

21:04

violations in your in your prison, uh

21:07

stay at all, No, and certainly

21:09

no recent ones. Like I get the impression

21:11

that you could have in your past, but like you

21:13

know, you probably couldn't have in the last month

21:16

or six months or some some set amount of

21:18

time. UM. And like you said, it needs

21:20

to be part of like this larger pattern

21:23

of UM

21:25

working towards being rehabilitated,

21:27

like being in a some sort of school or

21:29

diploma program or some sort of work

21:31

program something that basically

21:34

combined with these family visits. Says

21:36

I'm thinking about how I'm going

21:39

to behave on the outside and

21:41

it's going to be good. I'm gonna wow

21:43

you so that that these extended

21:45

family visits are kind of meant to support that

21:48

and encourage that kind of thing too. Yeah,

21:51

And again, depending on the state in

21:53

the prison, Um, what you're in there for is

21:55

going to really matter. Um. Obviously,

21:58

if you're convicted of a ex

22:00

crime domestic violence, any

22:02

kind of violence against children, you're

22:05

not even going to be eligible. And the

22:07

eligibility is really low.

22:10

Um. In two thousand thirteen, and

22:12

this was the last year that they could in

22:14

New Mexico, I think that they had conjugal visits.

22:17

Only two of state prison

22:19

inmates qualified. In Mississippi.

22:22

That same year it was point zero zero seven

22:25

nine percent in New York, four

22:27

percent in Washington. So the

22:30

idea that you may be sold on TV

22:32

by an angry politician that you

22:34

know, all of these prisoners are just in there having

22:37

the time of their lives having sex is

22:39

just false, right, Um.

22:42

But it's just so easy to fall for because

22:44

people don't you have to like look into

22:47

this kind of stuff, and who's going to do

22:49

that. Nobody. So the

22:51

weird thing is, oh, yeah, so I forgot about us.

22:54

Um with an assist by Julia Layton's

22:56

UM. But the thing is is like

22:59

those percentages and the fact that there's only would

23:01

you say, seven states now left at

23:05

all UM,

23:08

and they're under they're under fire, as we'll see.

23:10

But the idea that UM the United

23:12

States is kind of slowly getting rid of

23:14

its its UM extended family visit

23:17

system as part of prison

23:19

life, that's that's a that's

23:22

weird as far as Western

23:24

style democracies are concerned. UM.

23:27

Countries around the world, especially

23:29

Western style democracies, but also other ones

23:32

allow for UM,

23:34

if not extended family visits, at the very

23:36

least conjugal visits. So there's there's

23:38

actually you can it's easier

23:41

to point out the Western democracies that don't

23:43

allow it than it is that allow it.

23:45

The ones that stand out in particular are

23:48

Japan, New Zealand, UM,

23:51

and Ireland, and the

23:53

UK are they They absolutely

23:55

don't. New Zealand doesn't because they view

23:58

it as too much of a security risk and it's a huge

24:00

political hot potato over there to even suggest

24:02

that they should do it. And then Japan, apparently

24:05

their prison system is just

24:07

like in the Dark Ages, it's meant

24:09

to penalize criminals. They

24:12

can sit there and think about what they did. Apparently,

24:14

Japan is under fire constantly

24:17

by human rights organizations for like

24:19

using torture and stuff like that in their prisons.

24:21

Yeah, they're like real backwards when it

24:23

comes to prison for sure. Um,

24:26

But the idea is that it's

24:28

it's part of a liberal democracy to have

24:31

this kind of program

24:34

as part of your prisons at the very least,

24:36

just to to keep your

24:38

prison population less violent. Supposedly.

24:41

Yeah. Um, countries around the world where uh,

24:44

there was about to say lax, but that's

24:46

not true. I'm sure it's still very structured

24:48

and organized, but more permissive.

24:51

Um. India. You they say

24:53

it as a right and not a privilege as a human being.

24:56

Um. Saudi Arabia allows a conjugal

24:59

visit per wife per month. You

25:01

know what that means. It means multiple

25:04

wives equals multiple conjugal visits.

25:06

That's right. Latin America, they

25:08

are pretty generous with them. Brazil, the

25:12

only requirement for visitors is good

25:14

behavior. Um. Sometimes

25:16

that can mean weekly. You don't have to be married. They

25:19

do allow sex workers in Brazil to come

25:21

in Canada. Not

25:23

surprisingly, they allow three day family visits

25:26

every two months for most

25:28

inmates. Where

25:30

else Germany. They basically

25:33

it was sort of like anyone can

25:36

get a conjugal visit up until about ten years

25:38

ago when, and this is of course

25:40

the kind of thing you're going to see all over the news, there

25:42

was an inmate, a rapist and murderer,

25:45

who actually killed his girlfriend during

25:47

a conjugal visit. So they'd said nine

25:50

ruined it for everybody. Yeah, although

25:53

I don't think that they got rid of it. I think that they

25:55

just changed the restrictions a little

25:57

more. Yeah, and that is a real

26:00

liar, obviously a terrible sad,

26:02

sad case. But um,

26:05

that is that is I didn't see

26:07

anything else where anything like that had ever happened.

26:09

But see, that's the thing that gets

26:11

people right in the the hypothalamust

26:14

or something, and all of a sudden they're like, get rid of it, Bannon,

26:17

and kill a few prisoners while you're at it, for my

26:19

satisfaction, because I need to calm down, right.

26:22

But so Russia, Spain, France,

26:24

Turkey, Qatar, Costa Rica, Mexico,

26:27

Denmark, Australia and Israel

26:29

all have, um,

26:31

all have programs that include at the

26:33

very least conjugal visits, if not family

26:36

visits and like you said, Brazil and most of South

26:38

America, but the US is

26:40

not not hanging in

26:42

there very well. We're just kind of slowly

26:44

but surely, UM, getting

26:47

rid of these things little by little.

26:49

And from what I can tell, we keep talking about, you

26:51

know, a politician pointing this out. All

26:53

it takes is one um

26:56

determined politician and a couple

26:58

of legislative sessions and they're probably

27:00

going to get their wish. And that seems

27:02

to be what's been happening around the United States.

27:05

Yeah, it doesn't seem like there is enough

27:09

people on the other side that really,

27:11

really want to fight to keep it going.

27:14

Um. We've seen Julius

27:16

in a couple of stories, one from Vice and

27:19

one from Medium where they talked to real

27:21

prisoners about the programs.

27:24

And this one woman, Bernadette

27:27

stalbitz Um, she spent

27:30

I think she had two daughters

27:33

in jail, in prison and

27:35

was able to eventually spend time with those

27:37

girls and said, you know, these

27:39

fond memories playing tag, cooking chili, having

27:42

long emotional conversations into the night with their

27:44

daughters that are now grown. Um,

27:47

these thirty six hour visits were treasured,

27:49

and she said if it weren't for these trailer visits, I

27:51

wouldn't be the woman that I am today. And

27:53

that seems to be the resounding message anytime

27:56

you read these stories, is that this

27:59

is what made the different. It's for me and doing

28:02

my time, keeping sane and then

28:04

doing the right thing when I got out. Yeah,

28:07

and if you I mean, if you want to um, just

28:09

kind of get them touched in the heart

28:11

by some of these like read, uh,

28:14

two point seven million kids have parents

28:16

in prison. They're losing their right

28:18

to visit. That's a headline UM

28:21

for a Nation magazine article

28:24

by Sylvia A. Harvey, whose father

28:26

was in prison, and she she was the one I cited

28:28

who said that some of her fondest

28:31

childhood memories are of these extended family

28:33

visits. And she interviews some some

28:35

in profile, some other families who are kind

28:38

of trying to um, you know, keep their

28:40

family together while the father or the mothers

28:42

in prison, but are losing that because

28:44

these um extended visitations

28:47

are being turned into just regular

28:49

standard visitations. What most people think like

28:51

the arrested development, no touching, UM

28:54

kind of visit, like that's the Standard's

28:56

what's called the standard visit and they are not nearly

28:59

satisfying because I think there's just one

29:01

thing we haven't really pointed out, Like, yes, it's important

29:03

to have these family connections, but the way that

29:05

these family connections are maintained is that

29:07

in a standard visit where say it's like

29:09

thirty minutes maybe an hour, uh,

29:12

in a room with a bunch of other families and inmates,

29:15

a bunch of corrections officers like standing

29:17

right over you, you're not going

29:19

to have the conversations that you would

29:21

normally have, not not anything

29:23

illegal or whatever, but just personal, deeply

29:25

personal stuff. And so to have

29:28

one day or two days or three days

29:31

together as a family, those conversations

29:33

start to come up because in those standard

29:35

visits you've got like an hour, you

29:37

don't have time to bring up touchy

29:40

stuff that could result in hard feelings

29:43

because you know that there's not enough

29:45

time to complete that cycle to smooth

29:48

out the hard feelings. That's one

29:50

of the great benefits of these extended

29:52

family visits is you can have these tough

29:54

conversations. You can argue, you can snipe,

29:56

you can discipline your kids because you know

29:58

you have enough time to kind of work through

30:00

it and process it and then strengthen

30:03

those family bonds on on the other side

30:05

of it. That's the vital

30:07

importance of these kind of visits, and

30:10

that's why they're so effective. Yeah, and I

30:12

know our hearts are bleeding all over

30:14

this episode. Fine, but

30:16

like I think you two,

30:19

you would have to have a zero heart to

30:21

go beyond prison is for punishment

30:23

too. Prisonment is should be

30:25

punishment for your entire family.

30:28

Right, that's a different thing. You know, these are children

30:31

that are suffering and that

30:33

that may go down the wrong path because

30:35

if if not for stuff like this, like there are

30:37

a lot of other people involved, that

30:40

it would just help society as a whole

30:42

if if a little more empathy

30:45

were involved. Yeah, and I think really kind

30:47

of that points out one of the big arguments, which

30:49

I think we should take a break and then we'll talk about the arguments

30:51

against. But one of the arguments against Chuck is

30:53

that, um, you know, people

30:56

worry that there's going to be children

30:58

born to automatic scene parents

31:00

because the conjugal visits. It's

31:03

like, well, what about the kids whose parents are already in

31:05

jail? And if you follow that, you

31:07

know, ellipses all the way to

31:09

the end. The response

31:11

is, well, those kids, those kids should

31:14

have been born then if their parents are in jail. That's

31:16

what they're kind of saying when they're saying one

31:19

of the reasons to cancel these programs because we

31:21

don't want them, we don't want pregnancies

31:23

to result. All right, Well, let's take a break. We'll

31:25

talk about that, uh,

31:27

rehabilitation and punishment and then data

31:31

in the lack of right after this. All

31:56

right, So, you know, we

31:58

brought it up in the prisons upisode. We brought

32:00

it up in this episode. There are a couple of ways to

32:02

look at prison and confinement,

32:05

which is, are we trying to rehabilitate

32:07

these people and were trying to make society better as

32:09

a whole. Are we trying to just punish people

32:12

and as hard as possible and we really

32:14

don't care if society is better as a whole?

32:17

Right, great synopsis,

32:19

Chuck, Which side Elion? Well,

32:24

here's the big reveal. So

32:27

um clearly on the side of extended

32:30

family visits. But I'm it's not even

32:32

like a like, oh,

32:35

I I really get your point, I get the other

32:37

side's point, or I can see both sides, not

32:39

even like that, it seems to me and

32:42

Layton goes to great um links

32:45

to kind of try to be diplomatic about it,

32:47

but it's still just like, you know, this is this

32:49

saysn't whole water at all. Um.

32:51

The arguments against are basically

32:53

just gut reactions. It's like the same

32:56

thing is um a lot of arson investigation.

32:58

It's like, well, you know this feels a

33:00

lot to me like arson put that person in

33:02

prison for life and maybe on death row. Like

33:05

that's the that's the same kind of

33:07

correctional criminal

33:10

justice instinct that

33:12

seems to be driving the cancelation of

33:14

these And I have a lot of problems with anything

33:17

that deeply impacts families

33:19

negatively based on instinct

33:22

rather than data and science. I think

33:24

you really need to go to the trouble of producing

33:26

your argument against in these cases rather

33:28

than just canceling them out right with very

33:31

little um problems

33:33

from the public. Yeah, because there's

33:35

there's generally four arguments

33:39

that are used against and

33:41

to me, each of them have

33:43

a lot of holes in them. Um cost,

33:45

morality, security, and punishment cost.

33:50

You know, they they do charge people.

33:52

Those costs are offsets some but there's

33:54

no like like you said, give me the data when

33:57

you interview some of these people and

33:59

some of these politicians ends that have said

34:01

no, you know, this is this costing us a fortune?

34:03

And we're like, well, all right, how much does it costing show

34:05

us? And they'll be like, well, we don't really have a spreadsheet

34:08

on that, but I'm sure it's a lot. Yeah, but

34:10

it literally say things like that like well,

34:12

you know it hits the budget though. So there's

34:15

there's one thing you can poke holes in morality.

34:19

I mean, I think that one falls apart immediately,

34:21

because, uh, what is more moral

34:23

than families being able to spend time with one another

34:25

and strengthening a family bond, or

34:28

at least attempting to. But that's what I'm

34:30

saying. They use that public image of what

34:32

a conjugal visit is and the idea that you

34:34

know, and it may any inmate can just have sex

34:36

with anybody they want during these visits, and

34:38

then they just don't explain what's actually being

34:40

canceled. They just call them conjugal visits and then

34:42

that's that, right, because STD transmission

34:45

was one sided by um,

34:48

who was it Mississippi State Rep. Richard

34:50

Bennett. Uh,

34:53

and like you know, where's the data or

34:55

is our STDs being spread through

34:57

conjugal visits. They're not because

35:00

there is no data, but it's something

35:02

very grabby on the news to hear. Um

35:04

security is another argument. But you

35:07

know, show me that you can you can manage

35:10

security, like that's something you can actually control,

35:13

you know, whether it's um

35:15

like maybe not a camera in the bedroom, but you can

35:17

have cameras in the apartment. You can really

35:20

watch them. You can come in every two hours and inspect

35:22

things. You know, you can actually control security

35:24

and make it a secure environment. Yeah,

35:27

and I also understand that the absence of evidence

35:29

isn't proof, but I would

35:32

guess that if anybody

35:34

had been harmed, hurt, killed,

35:37

maimed, abused during any of these one

35:39

time, once in the history of these things in the

35:41

United States, we would know all

35:43

about it, and that would have been that that would have canceled everything.

35:46

Just like in Germany, it hasn't

35:48

come up. Like the fact that we didn't run

35:50

across it is is pretty

35:52

significant to me. I'm surprised they didn't lay

35:54

it on Germany. I'm surprised

35:57

the look it happened here, look

36:00

like it's all Merkel's fault. Um.

36:03

New Mexico was a state that that also

36:05

had sort of the same and the reasoning is

36:07

generally the same wherever you go, which

36:10

was some kind of moral outrage.

36:13

Uh. In this case, there was

36:15

um Michael Guzman

36:18

who was a prisoner in New Mexico that um,

36:20

he was actually a convicted murderer. So I'm

36:23

really surprised that

36:25

that he was even allowed. I'm not sure how that happened.

36:27

But he conceived four children

36:30

with different women, uh, different

36:32

wives in conjugal visits,

36:34

so he was getting married to different women in

36:36

prison and having kids.

36:39

And that was sort of like the poster child

36:41

in New Mexico for why

36:43

they shouldn't do stuff like that, right exactly,

36:46

So that one guy is basically the one

36:48

thing that American extended

36:50

family visitation can hang its hat on for

36:52

anybody who's looking to get rid of those things.

36:55

But then the the other part of the moral thing, and I

36:57

said it earlier, the idea that

36:59

it's up to Department of Corrections

37:01

officials or state representatives

37:04

to decide whether a family of

37:06

an incarcerated person, whether these

37:08

parents want to have another kid

37:10

or not. It has nothing to

37:12

do with them. It's not up to these prison

37:14

officials to decide that kind of family planning,

37:17

and it's smacks of eugenics and racism

37:19

to to think that they that that's it's

37:21

something they talk about publicly. It's something they

37:23

cite that you know, we don't want

37:25

people having, you know, kids even

37:28

though they're married, because the mom's

37:30

just going to be a single parent or the dad's going to be a

37:32

single parent, and um, it's just not

37:34

something we're interested in. That That

37:36

one really gets my gets my goat. Yeah,

37:39

the thing that gets my goat is just the lack

37:41

of data and this gut reaction thing. The

37:43

Department of Corrections in New Mexico said

37:46

they didn't see an upside and they told local

37:48

media that after two years of research, we

37:50

found that it did not affect recidivism rates.

37:53

And they said, oh, well, can I see

37:55

the details of the study, and they said, well,

37:57

it was not so much a study. The toural

38:00

quote was we looked at um individual

38:02

inmates. There was no study. Oh

38:05

well, where's the report on it then? And this

38:07

is, well, we don't have one, right. I

38:10

basically just went through a couple of files before

38:12

I came out here. You're a local paper. I'm

38:14

blown away that you asked any follow up questions

38:16

whatsoever, I think is what you're saying. But

38:18

here's the thing is, one side of this argument

38:21

is not studied. There are no

38:23

reports, there's very little research and

38:25

data. The other side has

38:27

a lot of data, actually, and we

38:29

know that I think it was

38:32

I'm trying to find who did the study that found

38:35

Yeah, study and there was

38:38

a sixty seven percent

38:40

decrease in recidivism with programs

38:43

like this installed. Yeah,

38:45

the human the Minnesota Department of

38:47

Corrections also did a study that basically

38:49

back that up too. And the

38:51

thing is is, um, if you talk

38:53

to prison officials typically and

38:56

like the ones who actually work in the prisons

38:59

and criminologists, like people

39:01

who actually have degrees in studying this kind

39:03

of stuff, they say, no, this is actually

39:05

a really good program and it does

39:08

have an impact on recitativism.

39:10

Because UM, while

39:13

we're still compiling data on extended

39:15

family visits uh as

39:17

as it stands, we do know that the family

39:20

is in a really important

39:22

factor in this transition

39:24

to UM from prison

39:27

to society, and so anything

39:29

that could strengthen that bond is a plus.

39:32

The other thing we didn't really talk about was the cost.

39:34

People point to the cost and cost savings

39:36

and stuff. UM. I think New

39:39

Mexico before they shut theirs down, it

39:41

was a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year

39:43

for this program. UM Washington

39:46

State spends eighties six thousand dollars

39:48

a year, and both of those prison systems charged

39:51

families to have these visitations.

39:54

So the idea that they don't work

39:57

and that they're expensive, and that there's

39:59

a more a component to them, there's basically no

40:02

argument against. And then there's data in

40:04

favor of the argument for these

40:06

things, and yet they seem to

40:08

be going the way of disco in the United States

40:10

sadly. Yeah, and not only UH.

40:13

I mean you can just talk about regular visits. There was a

40:15

study in two thousand eleven UM

40:17

that found the inmates who got just regular

40:20

standard visits, these are not conjugal,

40:22

these are not extended or overnight family visits,

40:24

just visiting people in person while

40:27

in prison were less likely

40:29

to return to prison than inmate who

40:31

received no visits. Yea. So

40:34

they also very surprisingly

40:36

to UM. And controversially,

40:38

there was a study that found that prisons

40:41

in stare correctional um

40:44

UH systems in states that never

40:46

had any family visitation programs

40:50

had four times more inmate

40:52

on inmate sexual assault than than prisons

40:55

that don't, which apparently really

40:57

flies in the face of common

40:59

wisdom, common consensus

41:01

on what the purpose of sexual

41:03

assault in prison is that everybody thinks it's

41:05

power based. They're like, actually, there

41:08

might be a sexual aspect to it

41:10

as well that had been overlooked to this point. Yeah,

41:13

like sexual desires not being met

41:16

um. And you're right that that is contrary

41:18

to everything we've ever heard about sexual

41:20

assault in prison, I think. Yeah, And while

41:22

it's kind of rich to point to anecdotal data,

41:25

after just disassembling anecdotal

41:27

data, there is um a

41:30

lot of sentiment, including

41:32

among Washington States Department

41:35

of Corrections, they have a brochure for their family visitation

41:38

UM that basically says an isolated inmate

41:41

is a dangerous inmate UM. So

41:43

that one of the sentiments that kind of was carried

41:45

along for family visitation and visitation

41:47

in general is this idea that it keeps

41:50

prisoners in line in the prison, which improves

41:53

security in the prison as well. Yeah,

41:55

see our episode on or was that in

41:57

the prisons episode which

41:59

were one on solitary,

42:03

we did one on solitude we did and we did

42:05

a prisons one too. Yeah. I mean that's

42:07

we've got a nice little robust and

42:10

we're popular in prisons too, so yeah,

42:12

we help prisoners learn to read sometimes. Yeah,

42:15

so they might be listening to this right now. Yes,

42:17

special shout out to all the prisoners listening

42:19

to this. Stay up. If someone

42:22

is listening to this with a family during

42:24

their family visit, Oh my gosh, I would

42:26

really like to hear about that. I think that's some T

42:29

shirts right there. Yeah,

42:31

yeah, at the very least. So yeah, let us know

42:33

and we'll send you some T shirts because that's a that

42:35

is one heck of a specific listen. Uh.

42:38

Well, like you said, this is definitely

42:40

going away though in a big way in the

42:42

US down to seven states now,

42:45

Um, I mean prison

42:47

visits. I don't know if they're really trying to get rid

42:49

of them. COVID has given them a big opportunity

42:52

to do that because more

42:54

and more prison visit um policies

42:57

or programs have revolved around like

43:00

zoom meetings and virtual meetings and stuff like

43:02

that, and with COVID, that's a UM

43:06

I could see it being used to

43:08

be like do we really want to bring Like there's

43:10

a lot of costs associated with just regular visits.

43:13

You know, we could just set up

43:15

a computer room and have them

43:17

going there and have little zoom meetings with their family.

43:19

Yeah, by which I mean is better than nothing.

43:22

But if these extended family

43:24

visits are the gold standard,

43:27

and then standard visits are the

43:29

whole hume standard virtual

43:31

visits, I mean yeah,

43:34

I mean I've done zoom hangouts before and

43:36

they get old really fast, they do.

43:39

But I'll tell you what. Of

43:41

course, my heart is bleeding on this one. But like

43:44

do those like every day? Yeah?

43:47

I wonder though if there's just as many

43:49

restrictions around those two, because

43:51

I think you have to, you know, demonstrate that

43:53

you're in good standing in your prison too.

43:56

Yeah. So that's

43:59

it that it's time you hear somebody trying to cancel

44:02

family extended family visitation in

44:04

your state. Maybe don't just say yeah,

44:06

serves him right, It's like, think about it. Maybe

44:08

vote against it if you want to. With this

44:10

episode, touched you like an angel? Touched

44:13

by an angel? You

44:15

got anything else? Nothing? Uh?

44:18

Well, since I said touched by an angel, of course

44:20

as usual, that means it's time for a listener mail.

44:24

I'm gonna call this one short and sweet factoid

44:28

from a movie crusher. I'm pretty sure Aaron Mazel

44:30

is a movie crusher. Uh, Josh

44:32

and Chuck, good morning. Just listen to the episode

44:35

on Francis Perkins. I'm guessing

44:37

you guys have seen the movie Dirty Dancing. Well,

44:39

Aaron, if you listen to our shorty

44:41

on the disappearing like disappearing

44:44

like you know we have. Well, there's a

44:46

part where Johnny asked Baby what her real name

44:48

is. And I don't remember this in the movie, but

44:50

she said her response was Frances

44:52

after the first woman in the cabinet. So

44:55

Baby in the movie Dirty Dancing was named after

44:57

Francis Perkins, right, amazing.

45:01

Nobody puts Francis in the cabinet. Well

45:04

somebody did. Oh wait, yeah, it didn't

45:06

work. That's one of the best.

45:08

That's seriously are and that's one of the best

45:11

facts I've ever heard in my entire life.

45:13

Best movie movie trivia ever. Yeah, and

45:16

very very much on the download. I

45:18

think I bet most people who

45:20

are Dirty Dancing heads did

45:22

not catch that line. And know what I meant, you

45:25

have to know both of those things. He didn't.

45:27

There's probably a very small Now it

45:29

might just be Aaron Mozzelle. Yeah,

45:32

that's to Aaron Moselle. Listen

45:34

to mails in like a week or two. She's

45:36

got to get some sort of trophy for that. Did

45:39

I read another one from her? Yeah? She was the

45:41

one who wrote in with the s y five k

45:43

oh really Yeah, that's she may not

45:46

be a movie crusher, then maybe I'm just remembering from

45:48

that she probably is. I mean there's a lot of crossover,

45:50

right all right, Well,

45:53

um, if you wanna let us know

45:56

something so astounding that you

45:58

get put on list sooner, mail twice

46:01

in like a week, we want to hear

46:03

it. We're really ready for those kind of

46:05

emails, go ahead and send them off

46:07

to Stuff podcast at i heart

46:09

radio dot com.

46:14

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46:16

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46:20

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