0:00

M Hey everybody, it's

0:02

me Josh and for this week's s Y

0:04

s K Selects, I've chosen our classic

0:07

episode on the classic feud between

0:09

the classic families, the hat Fields

0:11

and the McCoy's. It's one of the more interesting

0:14

stories of American history and

0:16

it's way more nuts than you even thought.

0:19

And I don't know about you, though, I

0:21

just want to put a little bug in your ear. Every time

0:23

I hear the name Jim Vance in this episode,

0:26

I always want to follow it in my mind with Vance

0:28

refrigeration. See if that happens

0:30

to you. Now that I've said that, I

0:32

hope you enjoy this one. It's a classic,

0:34

as I said, so enjoy

0:37

away.

0:42

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production

0:44

of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

0:52

and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

0:55

Charles W. Took. Brian is staring at me right

0:57

now. It's making me a toun uncomfortable. Jerry's

1:00

over there. I can feel her eyes burning into

1:02

the side of my head. So is the Stuff

1:04

You Should Know? Where would you like me to look? Uh

1:08

uh in my ear? Oh that's always so weird

1:10

to someone's like looking, Are you doing

1:12

it right? Now like right at your hair or really?

1:16

Yeah, interesting, try

1:18

my other ear. Oh yeah, that's that's

1:20

the stuff the right. Sorry, that's

1:23

your left. That's my left ear. All right, I'll remember

1:25

that. Look watch this, chuck, after

1:27

seven years, can you see that I

1:29

can wiggle ears independently? Drives

1:33

me crazy? So you sit around and do it?

1:35

Probably try not like a

1:37

good husband. Um,

1:39

chuck. Yes, we have a

1:42

bit of an announcement here. Yeah, what

1:44

we just heard? Yes, yeah, we're in the

1:46

room with either a hat

1:48

Field or McCoy. Jerry doesn't know

1:51

which family she's related to. She just knows that she's

1:53

related to one of them. Yeah, like literally,

1:55

right before we press the courts, she's like, oh, by the way,

1:57

I'm related to one of these families.

2:00

I'm just not sure which. And a

2:02

family member told her, but

2:04

she cousin Tyler was

2:06

that? Who was? I don't know. I think that's what she said,

2:09

cousin. I get the impression from Jerry's story

2:11

though, that she's sort of like glazed

2:14

over and that's why she doesn't know. But

2:16

she does carry a six shooter on her hip,

2:19

and that explains that this is McCoy on

2:21

the barrel, So maybe right,

2:23

but does that mean that it's a bullet from the McCoys

2:26

or for the McCoy's good monstry remains,

2:28

you know, good point. So we are talking

2:30

about the hat Fields in the McCoy's. For those

2:33

of you who don't live in the United States,

2:35

you probably have heard of the hat Fields in the McCoy's.

2:37

It's a pretty legendary feud. Yeah,

2:40

right, we've heard of some of your history

2:42

UK Australia, Matthew

2:45

Flinders, there's a name drop for you. Yeah,

2:48

so hopefully you've heard of the hat Fields in

2:50

the McCoy's. Yeah, I mean there was, if nothing else,

2:52

there was a big mini series a few years

2:54

ago on television, Yeah, with Kevin

2:57

Costner and Bill Paxton, and apparently

3:00

it was really

3:02

dramatized. Yeah, like asn't

3:04

fictionalized. Yeah, cinematized

3:07

and yeah, a little not

3:10

quite fully accurate, but at

3:12

least at least they brought attention to the

3:14

feud because it needs agreed.

3:17

So, the hat Fields in McCoy's

3:20

um is a family

3:22

feud, so much so that in nine

3:26

the hat Fields and the McCoy's were on

3:28

the TV show Family Feud, apparently

3:31

for a full week from what I saw, and

3:33

I read that legend

3:35

has it that it didn't actually inspired the TV

3:37

show, but I didn't get good verification

3:40

on that. Now and there there have been other family

3:42

feuds, right, but none

3:44

are as famous as the hat Fields in the McCoys,

3:47

although at the time there were more

3:49

famous family feuds. But the hat Fields

3:51

in McCoys just took it to

3:53

another level because all of the murder.

3:56

Yeah, there there was a lot of murder. It was mountain

3:59

folk versus mountain folks, families

4:01

that had been intermarried and

4:04

worked for one another, and um

4:07

had lived together for decades, if not longer,

4:09

alongside in this little area

4:12

along the Sandy River, I

4:14

believe, the Big Sandy River, in something

4:17

that's called the Tug River Valley, and

4:20

on one side mostly the hat

4:22

Fields lived on the West Virginia side in

4:24

Logan County, and right across

4:27

the river on the other side in Kentucky.

4:29

The McCoy has lived in Pike County.

4:32

And that's how it was for days

4:35

gone by. Yeah, and they they

4:38

were not new to the United

4:40

States, So I guess it wasn't the United

4:42

States then, was it. Yeah, we're

4:44

talking about the fifties seventies.

4:47

I was way off then, but they

4:49

came to America many many years

4:52

before that. Um. Apparently the

4:54

hat Fields were some of the very first to

4:56

come to uh, the New World from

4:59

northern Land, and the McCoy's

5:01

are obviously from Germany. Well,

5:03

the hat Fields were originally the heath Fields in England.

5:06

That sounds way more British. Yeah, but you

5:08

know how you do. You come over

5:10

to America and you you dumb

5:12

it down a little. I know Heath Ledger changed

5:15

his name to hat Ledger when he got

5:18

here, didn't he all right?

5:20

P uh. And the McCoy's

5:22

come from Scotland, of course you could probably figure that

5:24

out, moved to Ireland before they came

5:26

to the New World. And the first known

5:28

McCoy was John McCoy in America. When

5:31

was that, uh, seventeen

5:33

thirty two from Belfast, Ireland.

5:36

So did they move directly to the Tug River

5:38

area? Is that where they settled? Now? The

5:40

McCoy's first settled in Maryland, where

5:43

he was a prominent landowner, and I think the Hatfield's

5:46

first moved to Tug Valley in eighteen

5:48

twenty and the McCoy's

5:51

uh in eighteen o two with

5:54

their twelve kids. So they've been like,

5:56

really, these families had grown up

5:58

living in in working with each

6:00

other. Was not just these two families

6:03

in the area, there are plenty of other families, but

6:05

like they were neighbors, co workers,

6:09

bosson employee, they were, they

6:11

were husbands and wives, they

6:13

intermarried, you know, I mean like they were

6:15

they were living together for decades. Yeah.

6:19

I think the two um that originally settled

6:21

at tug Fork were the actual parents of

6:24

the two main protagonists

6:26

or antagonists. I guess they were both. Yeah,

6:29

they were both pro and and and so

6:32

they the the story. Our

6:35

story really kind of begins around about the

6:37

Civil War. UM, this

6:39

area of the Tug River Valley was

6:42

mostly Confederate, and both the Hatfield

6:45

and the McCoy's were Confederate sympathizers,

6:47

if not outright Confederate soldiers.

6:50

UM. The antagonist or

6:52

protagonist the patriarch of the Hatfield

6:54

family when the story begins. His name

6:56

was devil Ants Hatfield, right,

6:59

Yeah, that was his nickname. His

7:01

real name was William Anderson Hatfield.

7:04

Yeah, but devil Ace what a cool name. Yeah.

7:06

And I saw a couple of different explanations for where

7:08

his nickname came from. But my favorite one was that

7:10

his mother said he was so mean, the devil

7:12

himself was scared of him. Yeah. I saw

7:14

one that said he was six

7:16

ft of devil in a hundred and

7:18

eighty pounds of hell. They

7:21

had stupid sayings back then. Yeah, that was It didn't

7:23

quite add up, especially in the backwoods of Kentucky

7:26

and West Virginia. You know, they just said stuff.

7:28

They just made up names as as

7:30

we'll see throughout this whole episode.

7:33

But um, devil ants himself

7:35

was a he was from

7:38

what I saw. He was described as somebody who

7:40

took life by the horns, right. He

7:43

was very much a self made man. Um.

7:45

He got he became a pretty wealthy

7:48

timber merchant over the years. But he

7:50

was, um, he was a violent man.

7:53

Uh. And he was a well,

7:55

he had some violent tendencies for sure. Yeah.

7:58

And um, you know, if you want to trace back

8:00

the reason for the Hatfield McCoy

8:03

feud, there isn't

8:05

I think from everything I read, there isn't like one

8:07

single thing. It's often blamed

8:09

on the pig deal, which we'll hear about coming

8:11

up. That seems to be the one that historians

8:13

point to the most these days though, Yeah, but as

8:16

sort of a convenient way of telling the story, because

8:18

like, what what better way to kick off a feud

8:20

than like with the stolen pig? Right it? Definitely

8:24

there were other problems or issues between

8:26

these families before then, right yeah.

8:28

But the point is there are a lot of different things going on,

8:30

and one of them was, like you said, was

8:32

Um devil Ants made

8:35

a lot more money than McCoy

8:38

as as a timber guy. So on the other

8:40

side of the river, in the Kentucky side Pike County,

8:42

Kentucky, there were the McCoy's, and

8:44

at the time that devil Ants was the patriarch

8:46

of the Hatfield clan, a man

8:49

named Randall McCoy Old Randal

8:53

h was the head of the McCoy clan across

8:55

the river in Kentucky, Right, Yeah.

8:58

I just get the sense that he had his sort

9:00

of smaller business and was always a little

9:02

bit envious of the larger

9:04

timber business across very much.

9:06

So he was um. The

9:09

way that I saw him described was um.

9:11

If devil Ants as a man who took life by

9:13

the horns, Old Randal was somebody

9:16

who got hooked by life's horns

9:19

and he was very bitter about

9:21

his lot in life. His father,

9:24

Um I saw, was described

9:26

as didn't much care for work. Um

9:29

didn't leave, didn't leave his kids

9:32

anything. So his son had

9:34

to be a self made man. But he was a self

9:36

made man who never really made himself. He

9:39

married a woman named Sarah,

9:41

and Sarah's father died and left

9:43

them some land and he was able to homestead

9:46

on that. So that's how he was able to establish himself

9:48

was through his wife's

9:51

inheritance of her father's land. Um,

9:53

but it was enough to set him up. They were fine.

9:55

They weren't prosperous, but they weren't

9:58

like just completely poverty stricken

10:00

like Randall had grown up. But

10:03

just across the river and and this other

10:05

family that he had to deal with and work

10:07

with, um and and just kind

10:09

of see and interact with, was a

10:11

man who he you know, had

10:14

made himself. And and definitely Randall

10:16

was bitter about that idea and the comparison

10:19

between himself and devil ance. Yeah, and I

10:21

think um, some of the McCoys even worked

10:23

for some of the hat Fields, which is always

10:25

gonna be a little tense when you feel like

10:28

maybe that feeling of superiority comes

10:30

over one family because you're working

10:32

for me, you know. Yeah, So

10:34

there's definitely like you're saying, tention, right, and

10:36

and you can point to maybe

10:39

these guys coming into their own as

10:41

the heads of the family when the tension really started.

10:44

For many years historians

10:47

pointed to a specific incident as

10:50

the source of the family feud um,

10:52

but that's since been abandoned. So, like

10:55

we said, the Civil War is about the time

10:57

when this story really starts. In earnest

10:59

and most of the Tug River Valley was

11:02

Confederate. Devil Lance and possibly

11:04

Randall McCoy were part of what

11:06

we're called the Logan Wildcats,

11:09

which was a militia, but during the

11:11

Civil War they were an actual like

11:13

army unit of the Confederate Army. Yeah,

11:15

and that's all where Devil Lance was even the leader

11:18

in one place. But I didn't get

11:20

that verified a bunch either, So

11:22

so very least was in the brigade,

11:24

right, And I got the impression that if he wasn't a leader,

11:27

he was a de facto leader, because that was just

11:29

this type of personality Devil Lance. Don't

11:31

answer to nobody, right, you

11:33

answer to him, That's right. That

11:35

was a great devil Lance by the way. So

11:38

I think the leader of the Logan Wildcats is

11:40

another character who will come up later. And his name

11:42

is Um Jim Vance, So

11:45

Jim Vance. Um.

11:48

He was not a very great guy from

11:50

what I can understand. But I'll let him paint

11:52

his own picture. Okay, Oh, was he coming

11:54

in? He will in a little bit. Instead,

11:57

we're gonna focus on a guy named Asa Harmon

11:59

McCoy. And this guy I don't have a beat

12:01

on. He decided

12:04

in in just complete contrast

12:06

of the place where he grew up.

12:09

Um, he was going to join the

12:11

Yankee Union Army. Yeah, and

12:13

he did, Yeah, but he broke his

12:15

leg and and uh left the

12:18

service after I think a year back.

12:21

While he was in service, his um commanding

12:23

officer in the Union Army ordered

12:26

him to fight devil ants because

12:28

there was rumors that he was a Confederate

12:30

spy. So Harmon fights

12:32

devil nts, loses the fight. And I

12:35

didn't get a sense on what kind of fight it was, whether

12:37

it was like a gun battle or whether

12:39

he literally just like spit on his

12:41

boot and like took a swing. I'm

12:44

not sure. I don't know that if the if that was even

12:46

in the mini series. Um so

12:48

they getting a fight, he loses, and then uh

12:52

the can the Union troops went after devil

12:54

Ance at that point, which is really

12:56

what cost a lot of the early issues. Uh.

12:59

And then later on Harmon

13:02

shot a friend of devil Ance while

13:05

stealing his horse, so in turn he

13:07

killed Harmon's commanding officer

13:10

in the Union army. Okay, there's a lot of

13:12

bad blood. The guy was like literally, General

13:14

Bill France was peeing off his porch

13:17

like I do, and Devils shot

13:19

him in cold blood. I hope, I hope

13:21

that does not happen to you. I really

13:23

hope so too. It would be a bad way to go. Gives

13:25

you pause, you know. Yeah. So, um

13:28

the after the war, after um

13:30

Asa, Harmon McCoy uh

13:32

came back home. I

13:35

did not realize the attentions were already that high.

13:37

I had the impression that was just because he fought

13:39

for the Union. I didn't know he had been made

13:42

to directly target devil Ants right

13:44

well, devil Lands and the Logan Wildcats

13:47

basically sent as a message

13:49

saying watch yourself, because we're coming

13:51

for you. And he very wisely

13:54

went off and lived in a cave for a while he

13:56

hit out, And so with this guy, you're

13:58

like, why did he go fire for the Union? Was abolitionists?

14:01

No, he had a slave, and the slave

14:03

kept him alive by bringing him food and stuff while

14:05

he was in the cave. So I have no idea why he

14:08

went and fought for the Union. It's weird. The fact

14:10

that he did, though, meant that his own

14:12

relatives, his own McCoy is, including

14:14

Randall, his brother. Um,

14:16

really, we're just kind of like, yeah, the Logan

14:19

Wildcats are out to get you, and you brought

14:21

the sign yourself, so we don't

14:23

really feel for you. And they didn't apparently

14:26

make much of a problem

14:28

or much they didn't take issue

14:31

with it. When the Logan Wildcats tracked him down

14:33

to the cave and killed him, well, he was actually

14:36

coming home when they killed him. I think

14:38

he finally thought like, surely, after all this

14:40

time, they've forgotten about

14:42

this troglobe bite

14:45

troglodyte. Yeah, so he was walking

14:47

home to see his family that he hadn't seen in years and

14:50

Jim Vance shot him. That's how long he was in the

14:52

cave. Well, that might have been part

14:54

of the war, but

14:56

it said a few years man alive so

14:59

well at fulle Man Debt. Asa Harmon Uh

15:02

McCoy is killed by the Logan Wildcats,

15:04

and apparently at first everybody thought

15:06

it was Devil Answer did it, but he turned out

15:08

to have been bedridden at the time, so we had an alibi,

15:11

and they think instead that it was Jim Vance who

15:13

led it and probably killed Asa doing

15:16

his Devil's uncle okay um

15:18

and strong ally Jim Vance

15:21

was so uh, Asa Harmon

15:23

is dead. The first shot has been fired

15:25

in the family feud, so thought the historians

15:27

for years, and then I guess after interviewing

15:29

actual hat Fields and McCoy's they

15:32

realized that no, actually the McCoy's

15:34

were like, he brought it on himself. That's

15:37

that's we made peace with this, and no

15:39

charges were even brought in the murder

15:42

of Asa McCoy. Yeah. I saw one article

15:44

that described it as a murder agreement,

15:47

which apparently used to have that

15:49

like blood in, blood out, and everyone's

15:51

like, all right, even Stephen, okay,

15:54

so done and the first

15:56

death has occurred in the Hatfield McCoy feud,

15:58

but it has nothing to do with a hat Film McCoy feud.

16:02

Technically, yes, that seems like a pretty good time

16:04

to take a break, don't you agreed, sir, So

16:26

Chuck, we're back and asa

16:28

harm Instead. Things are whatever

16:31

between the hat Fields and mccois. Nothing, nothing

16:34

big has gone on, even if there were any

16:37

sort of skirmishes or little fights or

16:39

run ins or that kind of thing. I get the

16:41

impression that the families when

16:43

they saw each other, there was like a

16:46

a slight percentage that the sides

16:48

were going to get in at least a fist fight, did

16:50

not take like pot shots, and right now they're with their guns.

16:53

I just think they probably just didn't like each other very

16:55

much from the beginning, so

16:58

there's possible those things went on. Nothing

17:00

big happened though, until the

17:03

pig the pig incident, and

17:05

apparently it wasn't just one pig, that's what it's been

17:07

boiled down to, but it was several. Yeah,

17:09

and it was a big deal if you think about a pig.

17:12

Stealing a pig is not a big deal at the time. There's

17:15

a book called The Feud by Din King. Din

17:18

King Dean King

17:20

thinking said it's so weird,

17:23

Dean King, And he said,

17:26

uh, where

17:28

was their next meal going to come from? And how

17:30

could they feed the children in the winter. They were lucky

17:32

enough to have one pig or razorback

17:35

for cell or trade. The proceeds were

17:37

used to acquire flour, sugar, coffee, sometimes

17:40

shoes or boots for their families. It was a mainstay

17:42

for the family. So these

17:45

days you hear a pig or even a couple of pigs,

17:47

you think, what's a big deal. But in the region

17:49

at the time, these these

17:51

pigs were very valuable, so it was a big deal.

17:53

Right. I saw a and in the

17:56

front I saw a dude on well, yeah,

17:58

and that was another thing. Again, we're talking out

18:00

backwoods Appalachian folk in

18:02

the nineteenth century. There was a

18:04

lot to the idea that

18:07

you had stolen their property, which

18:09

as it should be. But even that aside. I saw

18:11

this historian on Um a CBS

18:13

Sunday Morning clip from a few years ago,

18:16

and he explained, like, you can feed

18:18

a sizeable family for

18:21

a month with a single pig, And

18:23

this guy stole several pigs. So the

18:25

guy who was accused of stealing the

18:27

pig was um Who

18:30

was it, Chuck who? Randolph McCoy

18:32

accused Floyd Hatfield. Okay, right,

18:35

so um Old Randall himself

18:37

said Floyd Hatfield, cousin of devl

18:40

Ance, I know that you stole those

18:42

pigs, and I'm taking you to court.

18:44

Well, they went to court. The problem is

18:47

the local magistrate was a hat

18:49

Field. But in this guy's

18:51

favor, his name was a preacher. It

18:53

was his first name, I believe, and he was basically

18:55

the what amounted to the local judge in the tug

18:58

River Valley. He

19:00

he tried to make

19:02

it a fair trial. Is he the one

19:04

that placed it in McCoy land because

19:07

the trial took place in McCoy territory, Yes,

19:09

anxided by a Hatfield though, right, And

19:11

he made sure that the jury had six hat Fields

19:13

and six McCoy's on it. He

19:16

did and nobody else, no joke. Yes,

19:18

so weird, but he was trying to make it

19:20

as fair as possible, right um.

19:23

And so they had a trial where

19:25

Floyd Hatfield was tried for hog

19:27

theft. Have you

19:29

ever had something stolen from you, like,

19:32

you know, not hugely

19:34

valuable, but yeah, it's It's

19:37

one of the things that irks me most. It's very

19:39

irritating. There's something about

19:41

like just someone taking

19:44

something that you worked to buy

19:47

that just really boils my blood. Now,

19:49

imagine if they took that thing

19:51

that you worked to buy, and they were

19:53

directly taking food out of your child's

19:55

mouth at the same time, it

19:57

makes you mad. I'd pull a hat Field. That we thing

20:00

is is that the McCoy's and the halfl Is at this point

20:02

are saying, we will let the we will leave

20:04

it to the courts. Right. So they did

20:07

go to court. They did try to have a fair

20:09

trial. Um, or at least

20:11

the preacher did. Preacher

20:14

halt Field, preacher judge right. Um.

20:17

It's confusing, and the the jury

20:19

was split except for one who

20:21

was a McCoy who sided with the hat

20:24

Fields. His name was Selkirk McCoy

20:26

another made up name and Selkirk

20:29

Um. He voted that because

20:31

of a guy named Bill Staton, who had

20:33

testified that Floyd had not stolen

20:36

the pigs. Um. He said, you know what,

20:38

I'm not going to contradict Bill Staton. I

20:40

know him to be truthful or whatever. Plus

20:43

I work for Devil Anson his logging operation.

20:46

So I'm gonna vote pro hat

20:48

Field and exonerate Floyd.

20:50

And Floyd got off and Old Randall

20:52

went nuts. Yes, Staton was the main

20:55

witness and he was a relative of

20:57

the McCoy's, but he was married to a hat

20:59

Field right. So um,

21:02

and while they did intermarry, I saw that

21:04

there was way more marrying within the family to

21:06

avoid intermarrying. Oh yeah,

21:09

there was a lot of first cousins that

21:11

were When you watch that Family

21:14

Feud clip, you can go find it on I'm

21:16

sure on YouTube. But there was a mental flass article

21:18

that we found that had it embedded at the bottom. That's

21:21

where I first heard about it. The that

21:23

when they're introducing the families,

21:26

they keep introducing one another is like kissing

21:28

cousins. This is a kissing cousin, Diane,

21:31

and like the families are saying that nine.

21:34

So yeah, there was a lot of like inner

21:37

marriage within the family itself. Well,

21:39

they were probably just joking, right, No,

21:42

No, on Family Feud, you don't think the

21:44

guy didn't sound like he was joking. Did

21:46

he kiss his cousin on TV? No? But

21:49

Richard Dawson kissed her. He kissed everything.

21:51

Guy kissed any woman who had stand still

21:54

long enough. What a flirt, Richard

21:56

Dawson. So yeah, r

21:58

I P. Yeah,

22:01

he didn't change his name even though he was British.

22:05

Uh, well, you don't know that that's

22:07

true. It

22:10

could have been Richard Dimpsum or Chumley

22:12

Dawson. That's a great

22:15

name. So so uh,

22:18

Old Randall has just lost

22:20

this court case. And even worse, he

22:22

was made to pay the hat Fields court costs

22:25

for taking him to court. And remember

22:27

we characterized Old Randall as a

22:30

kind of a bitter man. Anytime life

22:32

handed him lemons, he just squeezed

22:34

him into his eyes, go to anger,

22:36

right um. And he went

22:38

on for this for basically years,

22:41

about how this is a miscarriage

22:43

of justice, how Floyd had stolen his hogs.

22:46

And so now any time hat Fields

22:48

and McCoy's um went,

22:50

depending on their allegiance to the clan or

22:53

clans um, anytime they saw each

22:55

other, they were shooting at one another. They

22:57

were getting into fights, they were throwing rocks.

23:00

One of Um, one of devil

23:02

Ant's sons, was standing

23:04

there when Old Randall rode up once and

23:07

Old Randall started railing on him about how

23:09

Floyd had stolen a hog, and the

23:11

McCoys or the Hatfield Sun grabbed rock

23:13

and just threw it at Old

23:15

Randall's mouth, just crushed his mouth of the rock

23:18

because that's what you did back then. Yeah, that was sort

23:20

of like you killed my brother Harmon,

23:23

but you stole my hog. You know, I'm

23:25

cool with the brother killing Harmon, had it coming,

23:28

right, But that hog never hurt anybody. Yeah,

23:30

we were gonna eat it. Uh So

23:32

did we cover the fact that Staton

23:35

two years later was killed. This

23:37

is inaccurate? Is that not true? Bill

23:40

Staton Jr. Was Kilton, Bill

23:43

Sr. Was not killed in this skirmish. This

23:45

is another big retribution though, Okay

23:48

for his pause. Yeah, because after

23:51

the hog incident in the Hog Verdict,

23:53

the the halt Fields and McCoy's

23:56

did not fight it out right then at

23:58

the at the um magistrate office,

24:00

at Judge Preacher's place, Um.

24:03

But at any time the clan saw

24:05

one another, they would shoot at each other. They would getting

24:07

fights, they would take rocks to the faces,

24:10

and then it culminated finally

24:13

in this really truly violent incident

24:15

between Bill State and Jr. And

24:18

h Paris and Sam McCoy

24:21

Right. Okay, so Bill

24:23

State and Junior is out hunting, sees these

24:25

McCoy's sons and

24:27

says, oh, I'm in a world of

24:29

trouble. I better take a shot at

24:31

one of them and shoots Paris McCoy and

24:33

the hip and Sam McCoy

24:36

was like, you shot my brother, You're going

24:38

down. And he shoots Bill

24:42

and wounds him and then goes over and

24:44

executes him point blank in the head. And this

24:46

is Bill Junior, Bill Jr. See,

24:48

I got another article that said it was Bill, but

24:50

it also said he's Bill Stanton. So I'm starting

24:52

to doubt all kinds of accuracy.

24:55

There's a lot of inaccurate stuff. So I

24:57

got, um, I think the description of

24:59

that. And so it from a really great book by

25:01

a guy named John ed Pierce. It's

25:03

Days of Darkness Colon. So

25:06

you know it's legitimate, the feuds of Eastern

25:08

Kentucky. Yeah,

25:10

so there's been like serious blood shed

25:12

here. Now one of the this and

25:14

this is direct retribution for the hog

25:17

stealing verdict. A man has been

25:19

executed point blank in the head, and

25:21

the two McCoy boys just

25:24

tried to get away with it. Yeah, so

25:26

blood is spilling. Uh. Fast

25:29

forward a bit to eighty two and

25:32

h three of Randall's sons are attacked,

25:35

stabbed twenty six times and

25:38

shot Ellison Hatfield, who was Devil's

25:40

younger brother to death Right,

25:43

and that was on election day, and election days

25:45

were like drunken affairs. Do you remember when

25:47

I think in the Bars episode we

25:49

talked about like, what was it,

25:51

um, you get people drunk in Yeah,

25:56

bumbo planting, the applying

25:59

the plants with bumbling

26:01

the voters with bumbo. Yeah.

26:03

Man. But it was election day,

26:05

so everybody would get super drunk. And when you get

26:07

two clans that don't like each other super drunk

26:09

in the same place, they

26:12

get in fights and people get stay up twenty six

26:14

times and then shot in the back. Yeah. So those three

26:17

sons of Randall were actually

26:19

arrested and we're presumably

26:21

going to go to trial, but vigilanteism

26:25

took hold and they were kidnapped on

26:27

the way to the trial by the hat Fields and they

26:29

said, we're gonna take care of this our way.

26:32

Yeah, and they like, I don't know if they

26:34

let them get away with it, but they got away with it. No,

26:36

they did not let them get away with it. This was

26:38

a huge turning point, right um

26:42

when the hat Field or the McCoy

26:44

boys were intercepted by the hat Fields and taken

26:46

across the river to West Virginia, which

26:48

is basically like taking them to Fortress hat Field.

26:51

Yeah, country justice was gonna happen. Yeah,

26:53

but Devalance vowed that

26:55

if Ellison made it and didn't die,

26:58

he would not kill these hat Field are these

27:00

McCoy boys. Um,

27:02

But Ellison succumbed to his wounds and

27:04

did die, And so they took these McCoy

27:06

boys out and tied them to trees

27:09

and shot him I think more than fifty

27:11

times or something like that. And

27:13

so you were saying, like they got away with

27:15

it not for lack of trying,

27:18

right. It basically set off this huge,

27:21

huge issue like this was even

27:23

for the Tug River Valley. Chuck, this

27:25

was pretty

27:28

flagrant frontier justice.

27:30

You're not supposed to do this. There's a magistrate named

27:32

Preacher who's supposed to settle this kind

27:34

of stuff. Right, So a guy

27:36

named Perry

27:39

what was Perry's name, Perry Klein? You know what

27:41

this is? This is too big. We need to

27:43

take a break, all right and get to the

27:45

story of Perry Klein. Okay,

27:58

so we're back, chucking. We have a new guest. Name

28:00

is Perry Klein. Come on in, Perry,

28:03

you're an attorney. Uh.

28:05

He was married to Martha McCoy. And

28:07

here's the deal. Years

28:09

before there was a situation

28:11

where Perry Klein was

28:14

cheated out of I think five

28:17

thousand acres of land. Was

28:19

he cheated? I didn't know if he if it

28:21

was actual like justice, because

28:23

he had supposedly been cutting timber

28:26

from uh, Devlance's

28:28

timberland. Well, here's the deal. Everything

28:31

you read will say it depends on who

28:34

you sympathize with, is how

28:36

you think Perry Klein and really all of them

28:38

were viewed. So

28:40

I read articles that said that he was cheated, in articles

28:43

that said he wasn't cheated. Uh.

28:46

And I think the family is still today like while there

28:48

is a piece which we'll get to. Um,

28:51

they still disagree over Perry Clein's

28:53

role. Okay, So, but Perry Klein was

28:55

married to a McCoy. Actually he's

28:57

a Harmon McCoy's widow, right Martha,

29:00

And so, um, he had lost

29:03

five thousand acres. Really, that's

29:05

how much he was forced by the court to seed to

29:07

Devilands for allegedly cutting

29:10

his timberland. Yeah, so he was. He had he

29:12

had a retribution in mind as an

29:14

attorney. Right. So when the

29:16

hat Fields executed the

29:19

McCoy, the three McCoy boys. Um

29:22

Perry Klein used it as a chance,

29:25

depending on how you look at it, either used it as a chance

29:27

for retribution or his family allegiance

29:29

was stirred up, and he, being an attorney,

29:32

had contacts with the governor, Governor

29:35

Bunker I believe, of Kentucky and

29:37

said, Governor, there's some horrible stuff

29:39

going on down here that's being perpetrated

29:42

by some West Virginians against some law

29:44

abiding Kentuckians,

29:46

and you guys need to do something about

29:48

it. And it worked, Actually, yeah, they

29:50

reinstated the charges and Um

29:53

basically put out awards on the head, bounties

29:55

on the head, arrest bounties, that is of

29:57

the hat fields including uh

30:00

six ft of devil and pounds

30:02

of hell. Yeah, himself, his

30:05

sons, some of the Um

30:07

family allies like his uncle

30:09

Jim Vance. I think there were

30:12

there was twenty twenty men

30:14

who had indictments against them, and since

30:16

they had indictments against them and they were hanging

30:18

out in West Virginia, they had bounties

30:20

on their head. And one of the bounty hunters,

30:23

the main bounty hunter who came around it was it

30:25

was a problem that they had bounties

30:27

on their head because any crackpot who

30:29

wanted to could come and take shots at

30:31

those guys. And and it was

30:34

happening quite a bit. Yeah, they wanted to collect some

30:36

dough, right. But there's one guy in particular

30:38

who was a real thorn in their side. His name

30:40

was Mad Frank Phillips. And

30:42

Frank Phillips was a bounty

30:44

hunter extraordinaire. He was about

30:47

as legally gray as you can

30:50

get and still not be

30:52

uh, just on the darker side of the spectrum.

30:56

And he made it basically his

30:58

personal war to get as many hat

31:01

Fields across the river into Kentucky

31:03

as he could. So he would carry out raids

31:06

on the hat Field stronghold

31:08

in West Virginia, UM and

31:10

basically just abduct hat

31:12

Fields and bring him to Kentucky so

31:15

that they could be put in the Pike County jail. And

31:17

while he did this, he was also executing

31:20

people left and right, like Jim Vance. He

31:22

shot and wounded, saw that he just wounded

31:24

him, walked around from behind and

31:27

um, while Vance was begging for

31:29

his life, shot him in the head and like this is

31:31

Frank Phillips. M Oh, he would execute you just

31:33

as soon as he would capture you. Yeah,

31:35

and this was this was becoming a

31:37

big deal in the press at this point, uh

31:40

newspaper started carrying the stories and became

31:43

uh by all accounts like national

31:45

news, uh and legend

31:47

like it was. Everyone knew about the hat Fields

31:49

and McCoys by this point, right, and the press

31:52

apparently very much sided

31:54

with the McCoy's. They painted the hat Fields

31:56

to seem like Backwood's

31:58

murderous redneck who

32:01

just caused trouble everywhere they went, and painted

32:03

the McCoy's is innocent, law abiding

32:05

victims of of this um,

32:08

this whole feud um

32:10

and the whole legend, like you're saying, like this

32:12

is all it all begins about right here, When

32:14

when there was what amounts to almost

32:17

a war between Kentucky and West Virginia

32:19

because Frank Phillips kept going and

32:21

getting people and bringing them back to Pike

32:23

County and West

32:25

Virginia got involved, and the two

32:28

governors were basically standing

32:30

toe to toe, almost

32:32

about to go invade, sending National

32:34

Guard troops in across the border.

32:37

Um, but instead they left in the courts

32:39

and actually this court case about whether

32:42

it was legal or not for Frank Phillips

32:44

to have abducted the Hatfields and taken

32:47

them to the Kentucky jail. Um

32:49

reached the Supreme Court actually, which

32:52

is pretty amazing. It is in the Supreme Court

32:54

said, you know what, Uh,

32:57

it probably is illegal what happened,

32:59

but Kentucky's a sovereign state and there's really

33:01

nothing West Virginia can do about it, so go

33:04

ahead and try him. But before the trial,

33:06

actually, and while the um these

33:08

abductions were going on, these raids carried

33:10

out by Frank Phillips, the hat Fields,

33:12

like I said, like it was a big deal in them that they

33:14

were bounty hunters out to get them,

33:17

and they came up with a plan to

33:19

just end the whole thing. Yeah, in a

33:21

murderous killing spree is what they came up

33:24

with. Uh. In January,

33:26

a group of hat Fields said,

33:28

we're gonna attack Randolph McCoy and his entire

33:31

family, uh cap little Cappy

33:33

double ants, his son uh

33:35

and an ally to Jim Vance kind of led the way

33:38

and they ambushed them at their home on New

33:40

Year's Day. Randolph

33:42

actually escaped, which is uh,

33:44

they were kind of coming after him and he's the only one who

33:47

escaped. Well, they were coming after the whole family.

33:50

Yeah, like their whole intention was to just

33:52

murder this whole family of the problem.

33:54

Yeah, and Randolph was the key guy. He actually

33:56

got away. His son Calvin

33:59

daughter Ala Fair were killed, uh

34:01

and what they called crossfire, but they were you

34:03

know, let's get real. And his wife,

34:05

Sarah was suffered to crush

34:07

skulls. She was beaten so badly. Yeah, so Alice,

34:10

they set the house on fire. Ali Fair

34:12

opened the door to put the fire

34:14

out and she was shot and killed. And

34:16

then um, her mom,

34:18

Sarah wanted to come and like comfort

34:21

or dying daughter, and when she came out,

34:23

they beat her head in with the butt of

34:25

a pistol I think Cap Hatfield

34:27

did. And then um, Calvin

34:31

provided cover for his dad and

34:33

ran to attract their gunfire so his

34:35

dad could get away, and it worked, but

34:38

Calvin died as a result. And

34:40

then two other daughters have McCoy

34:42

daughters survived, So Randall and

34:45

two daughters survived this attack on his

34:47

family. And this was when it was like if

34:50

the press wasn't paying attention before and now they really

34:52

were. And um, basically

34:54

everybody was outraged at this and it's like

34:57

this legend, Chuck is a hundred something years

34:59

old, right, and it's easy to kind of see

35:01

these people as caricatures or

35:04

um, you know, just historic.

35:07

But when you think about what

35:09

the hat Fields planned to do and tried to

35:11

do to the McCoy's in that

35:13

case on New Year's nineteen, eighteen

35:16

eighty eight, Yeah, the New Year's massacres, what was known

35:18

as that's like objectively despicable

35:21

no matter when you when you when it

35:23

happened, going after an entire family to

35:25

kill them, Yeah, to wipe out a legal

35:27

entailment, you know it

35:30

is and it really kind of um brings

35:32

home like the actual humanity of all of

35:34

this, you know. Yeah. So it went all the

35:36

way to the Supreme Court and they decided, you know what, these

35:38

hat Fields should be tried. Uh,

35:41

And in eighteen eighty nine they were tried, and

35:43

eight of the hat Fields uh and their

35:46

supporters were since to life in prison,

35:48

and one Ellison Mounts, who

35:50

uh people think is the son

35:53

of Ellison Hatfield and his first cousin, Yeah,

35:55

it was actually sentenced to death. And

35:57

uh. The one issue here was a lot

35:59

of people now think he was a kind of a scapegoat

36:02

because he was mentally challenged, and uh,

36:05

maybe an early false confession happened

36:07

right exactly, and he actually, um,

36:10

really his was if

36:12

he didn't do it, or even if he did, he really

36:14

got screwed over by the prosecution. They

36:17

said that, um, if he confessed

36:19

and and and cooperated, that

36:21

he would get a lighter sentence, when really

36:23

he was the only one who confessed and he was the

36:26

only one who was hanged. So

36:28

um and his dying words, I think

36:30

we're the hat Fields made me do it and

36:32

then they hung him. Yeah, and there

36:34

were no public executions at the time, but that

36:37

did not stop hundreds of people,

36:39

thousands even from coming out and watching anyway.

36:41

Right, so it was a public execution.

36:44

And with the what's odd though, is the

36:47

uh so ten ten men had been

36:49

captured by Frank Phillips and had been added

36:51

and tried, and nine of them got life in

36:53

prison. Ellison Mounts was was hung

36:56

and this was apparently enough to um,

37:00

I guess, mollify Randall

37:02

McCoy. At first, I think he tried

37:05

to like rail against the verdict,

37:07

but ultimately it was enough to just calm

37:10

him down and he went and lived

37:12

a quiet life, quiet haunted

37:14

life as a ferry operator I

37:17

think, and lived to like yeah,

37:19

and about a year later. Uh, it was when

37:21

the family has both said enough is enough, let's

37:24

call a truce. And uh.

37:26

From I think it was an eleven year period, almost

37:29

twenty four people were killed in

37:32

both families, like close

37:34

to two dozen folks over eleven year period.

37:36

That's legit. Yeah, that's a that's a family

37:38

feud right there. That's a big feud. And devl Ance

37:41

lived to a ripe old age two. He lived to uh,

37:43

I think eighty three or something like that.

37:46

That's not that old. Well, he was born again at seventy

37:48

three. I think he lived into his eighties. And

37:51

but he he was paranoid

37:53

for the rest of his life because I think there was still

37:55

bounties on his head. So he moved to an island

37:57

and carried a rifle with him at all time

38:00

for the rest of his life. Well, they

38:02

if you look at pictures of the families,

38:05

they all had their guns. I mean,

38:07

that's what you did back then. But it's

38:09

it's funny to see a picture of like twenty

38:11

people in you know, twelve of

38:13

them are brandishing weapons, you

38:16

know, in the in the one photo that will

38:18

ever be taken of them. They've got their gun out

38:20

too. Uh So since then they've

38:22

been all over the place in pop culture.

38:25

We mentioned family Feud. There

38:27

was an Abbott and Costello movie in nifty

38:29

two. Buster Keaton did a movie too.

38:31

Oh really, I feel McCoy. Uh he was

38:33

on not Looney Tunes, excuse me, Mary

38:35

Melodies, big distinction, but

38:38

still bugs bunny um. Nowadays,

38:40

there are even some medical professionals who

38:43

think that there was a condition that

38:45

the McCoy's had that led them to be violent.

38:49

What it's called von

38:51

Hippe Lindau disease. And

38:54

these geneticists study dozens of McCoy

38:56

descendants and said they have a really

38:58

high rate of this disease. It's inherited,

39:01

it's rare, produces tumors in the eyes,

39:03

ears, and pancreas. Uh and

39:05

a notable side effect is high blood

39:07

pressure, racing heartbeat, and increased

39:10

um aggressive behavior,

39:13

increase fight or flight hormones. And

39:15

it was the McCoy's that may have had that, because

39:17

from everything I've read, it seemed like the hat Fields

39:19

would have been the one to have that. Wow,

39:22

maybe I'm a victim of contemporary

39:24

press bias. Media bias.

39:29

Else. I got nothing else. Those other stuff.

39:31

There's plenty of stuff that I'm sure we

39:34

didn't hit. And you should go read some

39:36

of the cool books written about this stuff. I got

39:38

one more thing, actually, here comes World

39:40

War two. Life magazine used the

39:42

families as a way to unite

39:45

America's war effort by featuring

39:47

them in a big photo spread. The hat Fields of McCoy's

39:50

like working together in factories for World

39:52

War two. Yeah, and

39:54

they I think they even

39:56

met recently in like they're

39:58

they're still out there and there's still meeting and talking about

40:01

this and uh disagreeing

40:03

friendly disagreements on people

40:06

like Perry Klein and uh he was

40:08

the other guy, Mad Mad Month, Mad

40:11

Frank Phillips, Mad Frank Phillips, who remember

40:13

I said he was legally gray. He married

40:16

uh a McCoy who ended up who had had

40:18

a baby with John C. Hatfield. Um,

40:21

they ran off together and got

40:24

married Frank Phillips and

40:26

Nancy McCoy and ended up being prosperous

40:28

bootleggers in the region. Well,

40:30

and there was also a spurned romance too that

40:32

led detentions. I forgot about that. Yeah, Roseanna

40:35

Rosanna McCoy and John C. Hatfield.

40:37

Yeah, they had a little tryst and

40:40

a child together, but the child died I

40:42

think aged eight months from measles.

40:45

But he kicked her to the curb before that and

40:47

then went and married her cousin Nancy, although there

40:49

were no curbs back then. He kicked her to the river bank,

40:52

to the creek side. Yeah.

40:54

Again, we could probably keep doing this for

40:56

another forty five minutes, but we're not. If

40:59

you want to know more about hat fills and McCoy's

41:01

is ghost searching in your favorite search

41:03

engine? And since I said search engine, it's

41:05

time for a listener mail. I'm

41:09

gonna call this just a nice little email

41:12

of thanks. I'm a nice person. Okay,

41:15

Hi, Justin Chuck and Jerry. I'm a young thirty

41:17

something who lives in Berwin, Illinois.

41:20

I just recently started listening to podcasts

41:23

and came across How Stuff Works and you, guys, I'm

41:26

a nerd at heart. In your podcast feeds my inner

41:28

beast. I listened to you on my way to work on

41:30

a train at uh it sounds like Dr seuss

41:33

Um at work again, and

41:35

then on my way home from work. I'm

41:38

so addicted to learning new things. Scrolling through the feed

41:40

is exhilarating because I'm dying to listen

41:42

to them all. Jennifer, there's

41:45

I'm not sure if you know this. If you follow

41:47

us on iTunes, you might think they're only three hundred, but

41:49

there are more than eight hundred and fifties

41:52

right, And

41:54

that's for all of you out there, and you can

41:56

find those at our website. Back

41:59

to Jenner, I've told all my friends about the podcast.

42:02

I even make my husband listen while

42:04

we're cooking. I can't get enough of all the cool

42:06

topics you talk about. And since I listen to every

42:08

day, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna send an email and

42:11

hopes that it is read on the air, and if

42:13

not, at least you know you have another dedicated listener.

42:15

Thanks for spreading knowledge, and that is Jennifer Hardy

42:18

and Jennifer. Sometimes when I get there

42:20

to read things on the air, I do. It works

42:22

every time and not every time. Flattery will

42:25

get you everywhere. Uh,

42:27

if you want to let us know how great

42:29

you think we are, we love hearing that stuff.

42:31

Obviously, you can tweet to us

42:33

at s Y s K podcast. You can post

42:36

it on Facebook dot com slash Stuff

42:38

you Should Know. You can send us an email to

42:40

stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com, and

42:42

as always, join us at our home on

42:44

the web. Stuff you Should Know dot Com.

42:49

Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's

42:51

How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

42:53

heart Radio, because at the iHeart Radio app, Apple

42:56

Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.