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libre. US Welcome to Stuff You

1:08

Should Know a Production of I

1:10

heart radio Hey

1:14

and welcome to the podcast. I'm

1:17

Josh and there's Chuck and this

1:19

is part two of our two-parter

1:21

on the assassination of Martin Luther

1:23

King Jr. That's right. Where we

1:25

locked off with part one was

1:27

the funeral of Martin Luther King

1:29

Jr. and we're going to pick

1:32

up now with the investigation in

1:34

the man hunt. And while we're

1:36

talking about that, we might as

1:38

well go ahead and say it's

1:40

still perhaps the largest man hunt

1:42

in FBI history, depending on who

1:44

you ask. cost a couple of

1:46

million bucks in those dollars, 3500

1:49

investigators, and it was all just

1:51

a bit awkward because, as we

1:53

all know, or maybe some people

1:55

don't know this, but the FBI

1:57

had been tracking Martin Luther King

1:59

Jr. since 19th. So for 12

2:01

years under a program called Racial

2:04

Matters, racial matters. And I don't

2:06

think they meant like matters, like

2:08

race matters. No, I think they

2:10

meant the other way, like the

2:12

matters of race. Right. And then

2:14

in 1963, they started tapping his

2:16

bones under the Communist Infultration Program.

2:18

and Jay Edgar Hoover was still

2:21

around at the time because it

2:23

seems like he was there for

2:25

300 years. Yeah. And he didn't

2:27

like Martin Luther King Jr. He

2:29

called the most notorious liar in

2:31

the country publicly at a press

2:33

conference because King had been criticizing

2:35

the FBI because they you know

2:38

weren't protecting the civil rights of

2:40

black Americans and so Hoover didn't

2:42

like the guy yet he was

2:44

the guy kind of at the

2:46

top of this huge investigation. I

2:48

read... Martin Luther King's cool response

2:50

to Jay Gore Hoover calling the

2:53

most notorious liar get bent. No,

2:55

no, he said that Jay Gore

2:57

Hoover must be under tremendous pressure

2:59

to have said such a thing

3:01

like he was sympathetic. Geez, that's

3:03

talk about the high road man.

3:05

Yeah, for sure. All right. So

3:07

the FBI gets a hold of

3:10

that 30 out six rifle that

3:12

was determined to be their murder

3:14

weapon. They couldn't actually conclusively link

3:16

that bullet to the gun because

3:18

the shell had been fragmented but

3:20

it was the same caliber and

3:22

everybody was like come on it's

3:25

it's the gun can we all

3:27

just agree to that how many

3:29

rifles do you guys have just

3:31

laying around in Memphis that day

3:33

yeah dumped minutes after by a

3:35

guy who sped away in a

3:37

Mustang right hundreds of just a

3:39

hundred feet or so away from

3:42

the murder scene So, yeah, they

3:44

couldn't conclusively link that to the

3:46

gun, but they were able to

3:48

trace the serial number and they

3:50

traced it back to a sporting

3:52

goods store in Birmingham Alabama called

3:54

Arrow Marine Supply. And they confirmed

3:56

that it had been purchased just

3:59

a few days before MLK was

4:01

assessed. Yeah, along with the scope

4:03

and a gentleman who said that

4:05

he was going hunting on a

4:07

hunting trip with his brother Okay

4:09

Because yeah, you have to you

4:11

have to be like that's believable

4:14

right? Yeah, you're buying a gun.

4:16

You got to have a cover

4:18

story Yeah, and under an alias

4:20

under the name Harvey Lomire, right

4:22

so Two weeks after the killing

4:24

they they figured out that the

4:26

The Prince on the Gun matched

4:28

those of a guy named James

4:31

Earl Ray. And at the time

4:33

James Earl Ray had been an

4:35

escaped convict from a state prison

4:37

in Missouri for basically a year.

4:39

He'd been on the run. So

4:41

now we had a suspect and

4:43

we had photos and they started

4:46

circulating it around to people who

4:48

had putatively interactive with James Earl

4:50

Ray, including the guy at the

4:52

Aeromarine Supply Store who sold them

4:54

the gun. Yeah, so he was

4:56

like, that's the guy, there were

4:58

witnesses, we mentioned earlier in part

5:00

one, at the Bessie Brewer boarding

5:03

house. They also looked at pictures

5:05

and they were like, yeah, that's

5:07

the guy we saw running away.

5:09

And they went to the hotel

5:11

clerk or the boarding house clerk

5:13

and they said, yeah, this guy

5:15

signed in, that's him for sure,

5:17

under the name John Willard. So

5:20

he had multiple aliases. That portable

5:22

radio that they found in the

5:24

bundle had a scratched out ID

5:26

number and they eventually figured out

5:28

that that was his prison radio.

5:30

It had his inmate number on

5:32

it. So he escaped prison and

5:35

was like, I'm taking my radio.

5:37

It seems pretty conclusive that James

5:39

Earl Ray would have been the

5:41

shooter, right? Yeah. So they issued

5:43

an indictment for his arrest for

5:45

the murder of Martin Luther King

5:47

Jr. on May 7th, a couple

5:49

months after, or no, a month

5:52

after MLK was murdered. And an

5:54

international manhunt began. I know the

5:56

FBI was definitely concentrating on the

5:58

United States, but they didn't rule.

6:00

out the possibility that he had

6:02

started to go abroad. And so

6:04

they issued it far and wide,

6:07

a wanted poster with his data

6:09

and his photos on it. So

6:11

the FBI started tracking his movements.

6:13

He's got all these aliases in

6:15

that year that he was on

6:17

the lamb after the shooting. He

6:19

was into politics for a

6:21

little while, supporting Alabama

6:24

Governor George Wallace, his

6:26

presidential campaign. He was in

6:29

LA for a little while, he took

6:31

dance lessons, he went to bartending school,

6:33

he lived in Mexico for like a

6:35

month or so trying to become a

6:38

pornography director under the name Eric

6:40

Salvo Galt. That didn't work out,

6:42

so he left Mexico, came back to

6:44

the states, and apparently in like the

6:46

month or so before the assassination,

6:49

he had been stalking king,

6:51

and had followed him from

6:53

Atlanta to Memphis. Yeah, so

6:55

it seemed like the month

6:57

before he murdered Martin Luther

6:59

King Jr. He suddenly got

7:01

that idea in his head

7:03

because none of his movement

7:05

suggested that he had

7:07

even focused on Martin

7:09

Luther King at all up to

7:11

that point. After the assassination,

7:14

James Earl Ray fled to

7:16

Toronto. It's eventually where he

7:19

landed first. Sorry, I'm sorry

7:21

Turan, I know that too. Thanks

7:23

Chuck. So at the time, apparently

7:26

if you were an American

7:28

criminal, in Canada, they were

7:30

very, very trusting at the time.

7:33

They basically said, if you

7:35

swear that you're a Canadian

7:37

citizen, you give us your

7:39

name, we'll send you a

7:41

passport. And that's what Crooks would do.

7:43

They would go to Canada when they

7:45

were on the run. They would look

7:47

up old newspapers at the library and

7:49

find birth announcements from about the same

7:51

time that they were born, finding people

7:53

who were their age. And they would get

7:56

their name. They would get their mother's

7:58

maiden name sometimes. And apparently... you

8:00

didn't even need that. You just

8:02

fill out this form, say your

8:04

name, say yes I swear I'm

8:06

a Canadian citizen, and mail off

8:08

for a passport, which would be

8:10

mailed back to you, too sweet.

8:12

And now you had a fraudulent

8:14

but official and legitimate passport that

8:17

you could use to travel the

8:19

world with under a new alias.

8:21

Yeah, and this time his alias

8:23

was, because, you know, it was

8:25

a real dude. In fact, the

8:27

guy was a cop, pretty ironic.

8:29

I guess Snead S-N-E-Y-D. I heard

8:31

Snead from somebody once, but I

8:33

don't know if that was definitive.

8:36

Okay, well, it's good that we

8:38

spelled it out, because that'll come

8:40

into play in a minute here.

8:42

But from Toronto, he went to

8:44

London. He was actually in London

8:46

a couple of times. He passed

8:48

through London on his way to

8:50

Lisbon, and then afterward, his long-term

8:52

plan... was to go to Rhodesia,

8:54

now Zimbabwe, because in 1965 a

8:57

5% white minority there had assumed

8:59

independence from the UK and he

9:01

was like going to go to

9:03

Rhodesia and I'm going to integrate

9:05

into this small white minority and

9:07

become a paid mercenary. Yeah, so

9:09

I mean he went to Lisbon

9:11

hoping to secure passage. to Africa

9:13

and while he was there he's

9:16

like I got a great idea.

9:18

Surely that people are on my

9:20

trail, that feds are on my

9:22

trail now and they might even

9:24

know my alias. So I need

9:26

a new alias. I'm going to

9:28

go to the Canadian consulate here

9:30

in Lisbon and I'm going to

9:32

tell them that they misspelled my

9:35

name on my passport. So he

9:37

went there and he told the

9:39

Canadian consulate there that his last

9:41

name actually is spelled with an

9:43

A, not a D. And they're

9:45

like, okay, whatever, here's your new

9:47

passport with your last name spelled

9:49

correctly. And he had a new

9:51

alias, Ramone George Snaya, instead of.

9:53

So there's one letter change and

9:56

apparently that satisfied James or Ray

9:58

that he had a new alias

10:00

now. Yeah, we'll get to who

10:02

Ray was a little bit, but

10:04

the one takeaway from everything that

10:06

I've read is he was not

10:08

a very smart person. Not a

10:10

criminal mastermind. He was no brain

10:12

from Pinky in the brain. No.

10:15

Also because he did not throw

10:17

that first passport away and that

10:19

would be his undoing. He, like

10:21

we said, he could not secure

10:23

that passage to Africa, so he

10:25

went back to London to figure

10:27

out what his next move was.

10:29

He called a, this is sort

10:31

of a weird part of the

10:34

story, he called a reporter named

10:36

Ian Colvin at the Daily Mail's

10:38

Foreign Desk. And I don't know

10:40

if this guy had written articles

10:42

about it, mercenaries or something. I

10:44

don't know either. That's the only

10:46

thing I can figure out, because

10:48

he called this random reporter and

10:50

said, hey, you got any contacts

10:52

for these mercenaries. Colin was like,

10:55

no, but if you're, I guess

10:57

if you're looking to get into

10:59

that kind of thing, check into

11:01

Brussels, because that's where you might

11:03

have better luck. It's a very

11:05

strange little side part of this

11:07

story, for sure. It really is.

11:09

So James O'Rae was like, thank

11:11

you, thank you much, and starts

11:14

booking flight to Brussels from London.

11:16

And it was in London on

11:18

his way to Brussels that he

11:20

finally got nabbed, but not because

11:22

somebody noticed his mugshot or wanted

11:24

poster and saw that he was

11:26

him, but because he had those

11:28

two Canadian passports and he had

11:30

them in the same wallet. Yeah,

11:32

two different names. Yes, and the

11:35

passport checker noticed that he had

11:37

two passports and asked him about

11:39

it. And I guess a cop

11:41

was standing nearby and stepped over

11:43

and stepped over and was like,

11:45

hey, why don't you join us

11:47

in the back room? got some

11:49

questions for you. And that was

11:51

it for Ramone George Snade Snaya.

11:54

He was quickly identified as James

11:56

Earl Ray. He had a 38

11:58

caliber pistol tucked in the back

12:00

of his pants going to board

12:02

a plane. You could do. that

12:04

back then because they didn't have

12:06

metal detectors. Yeah, as long as

12:08

you didn't shoot it off because

12:10

you were excited during takeoff. Right.

12:13

In the plane, then they didn't

12:15

really care. Yeah. So he was

12:17

confirmed as James O'Rae. He was

12:19

taken into custody and on July

12:21

19th was flown back to the

12:23

US to sand trial and that

12:25

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15:57

so James Earl Ray's been... taken

16:00

into custody and he's flown back

16:02

to the United States on July

16:04

19th to stand trial and the

16:06

whole world is watching. They want

16:08

to know why the man who

16:10

assassinated Martin Luther King Jr. Did

16:13

that why he murdered MLK. What

16:15

was the point? What was the

16:17

reason? They also wanted to know

16:19

if he had been working with

16:21

other people because from the outset

16:23

people were the public was just

16:26

openly skeptical that there was some

16:28

conspiracy that had resulted in MLK's

16:30

murder. And the world got none

16:32

of that because James O'Rae pled

16:34

guilty. instead of going to trial.

16:36

And there was a paper reporting

16:39

on the case who was at

16:41

this hearing where he pled guilty

16:43

and said that it brought a

16:45

shockingly swift ending to the case.

16:47

And everybody was like, what just

16:49

happened? And that was essentially that.

16:52

There was no trial ever, and

16:54

there were no facts presented. So

16:56

it was just like, yep, I

16:58

did it, send me to jail.

17:00

Yeah, his attorney at the time,

17:02

Percy Foreman said, Well, you know,

17:05

if you go to a jury

17:07

trial, you're probably going to get

17:09

a death sentence because of, you

17:11

know, because of the murder and

17:13

its impact on the country, basically,

17:15

like, you're not going to avoid

17:18

the electric chair. So if you

17:20

plead guilty, you can get the

17:22

maximum life sentence, which is 99

17:24

years in prison in Tennessee. And

17:26

he said, that's... Probably the the

17:28

right route to take so Ray

17:31

took it. It was a two-hour

17:33

affair in court No one got

17:35

the satisfaction of hearing any of

17:37

the evidence It also meant he

17:39

wouldn't be eligible for parole for

17:41

30 years Whereas if he had

17:44

gotten a life sentence and not

17:46

the 99 he could have gotten

17:48

out in 12 and a half

17:50

right But just three days after

17:52

he pleaded guilty he recanted and

17:54

tried for the rest of his

17:57

life to get a new trial

17:59

He did escape. In fact, if

18:01

you listen to our Berkeley Marathon

18:03

episode, he escaped successfully for three

18:05

days in 1977 and was picked

18:07

up in Brushy Mountain where that

18:10

race takes place. But he would

18:12

eventually die in prison in 1998

18:14

at the age of 70, which

18:16

would also been the year he

18:18

was first eligible for parole. Yes.

18:20

And you said earlier that we

18:23

were going to talk a little

18:25

bit about James Earl Ray in

18:27

his criminal career. That's right. So

18:29

he was born in Illinois, but

18:31

mostly grew up in Missouri, and

18:33

he was the oldest of nine

18:36

kids, and his family was impoverished.

18:38

His father was a convict himself,

18:40

who didn't work very often. His

18:42

mother was, as James Earl Ray

18:44

put, a woman of very limited

18:46

intelligence, barely able to communicate, and

18:49

she also drank very heavily. And

18:51

there was a report card from

18:53

grade school that said his attitude

18:55

toward regulations was that he violates

18:57

all of them. This was him

18:59

as a kid and he didn't

19:02

improve very much as an adult.

19:04

He dropped out of high school

19:06

at 16, worked for a while,

19:08

and then he joined the army.

19:10

Yeah, he joined the army. Yeah,

19:12

he dropped out of high school

19:15

at 16. King was in college

19:17

at 15. So it just contrasts

19:19

the two situations. And 46, he

19:21

joined the army, with breaking arrest.

19:23

He served three months in the

19:25

Army Klink, hard labor for that.

19:28

He was discharged less than honorably

19:30

for, quote, an epnes and lack

19:32

of adaptability to military service in

19:34

1948. So just a couple of

19:36

years in the Army. And then

19:38

was a drifter and a petty

19:41

criminal who was in and out

19:43

of jail over and over. Yeah,

19:45

and he was serving a 20-year

19:47

sentence for robbery in Missouri. He

19:49

started it in 1960 when he

19:51

broke out in 1967 and began

19:54

that year on the lamb. that

19:56

culminated in the assassination of MLK.

19:58

Yeah, and you know, it was

20:00

really a 20-year prison sentence for

20:02

everything, because it was a pretty

20:04

small robbery at Kroger that wouldn't

20:07

have gotten a 20-year, but he

20:09

had other armed robbery convictions, he

20:11

had mail fraud convictions, and escape

20:13

attempts. So it was like, hey,

20:15

we're just going to try and

20:17

put you away for a while.

20:20

Right. And if you're curious how

20:22

he escaped. He hid in a

20:24

bread delivery truck that was leaving

20:26

the prison. I heard that too.

20:28

Yeah. You would have found me

20:30

eating loaves of bread too. With

20:33

your little portable radio, prison radio.

20:35

Just snapping my fingers with a

20:37

mouthful of bread. So his criminal

20:39

history, just because your lifetime criminal

20:41

doesn't mean you're good at it?

20:43

Yeah. And James Royal Ray is

20:46

an excellent example of that. Time

20:48

magazine described him back in 1977

20:50

back in 1977 back in 1977.

20:52

as a bungling petty gunman and

20:54

burglar whose life of crime has

20:56

mostly been one fizzle after another.

20:59

And they weren't lying because some

21:01

of his greatest hits that they

21:03

went on to site was that

21:05

at one crime scene he dropped

21:07

identification. He dropped his ID. Yeah.

21:09

One hold up in a neighborhood

21:12

he got lost as he was

21:14

making his getaway ended up back

21:16

driving back into the neighborhood where

21:18

he just robbed somebody. and was

21:20

caught by the police who derived

21:22

on the scene by then. Yeah,

21:25

who are apparently surprised. I imagine

21:27

they were like, oh, wait a

21:29

minute. Is that him coming back?

21:31

Get a load of this guy.

21:33

Another time he came back to

21:35

to re-rob a place, he had

21:38

already robbed, re-entered the window to

21:40

get more stuff. That is a

21:42

no-no. That is crime 101. Yeah,

21:44

like, get out of there. I'm

21:46

not a criminal, but I would

21:48

get out of there. So even

21:51

when he was in London too,

21:53

when he was on the run

21:55

after assessing the MLK, he carried

21:57

out not one but two bungled

21:59

robberies. It's crazy. One was a

22:01

bank and he managed to only

22:04

get a hundred pounds from a

22:06

bank. Yeah. The other was a

22:08

jewelry store where he got nothing

22:10

because the owner knocked the gun

22:12

out of his hand and pressed

22:14

the alarm so James O'Rae ran

22:17

away. And these are the Londoners.

22:19

They're not used to knocking guns

22:21

out of hands and this guy

22:23

still managed to do it. That's

22:25

right. Yeah, he just was not

22:27

a very good criminal even though

22:30

he tried it over and over

22:32

again. And he was successful. I

22:34

mean, like he did successfully rob

22:36

people and break into places and

22:38

all that. But if you put

22:40

it all together, he didn't have

22:43

like a violent criminal rap sheet.

22:45

He was this kind of this

22:47

petty criminal, that's how he supported

22:49

himself in life, in one single

22:51

action. Seemingly overnight and a lot

22:53

of people say that just doesn't

22:56

add up. Yeah, and you know,

22:58

we don't lend our show and

23:00

ourselves to conspiracy-minded generally, but you

23:02

don't have to be to look

23:04

at this and say he probably

23:06

didn't act alone. It just doesn't

23:09

add up like you said. So

23:11

there have been congressional committees over

23:13

the years that have been family

23:15

members of Martin Luther King Jr.

23:17

that said, yeah, this was part

23:19

of a conspiracy. There's never been

23:22

any solid agreement on what kind

23:24

of conspiracy and who else was

23:26

behind it. And we're not going

23:28

to get into the nitty gritty

23:30

of all the, there's a lot

23:32

of, there's a lot of discounted

23:35

stuff and stuff that rabbit holes

23:37

shouldn't even go down. So we're

23:39

not going to get into those,

23:41

but we are going to talk

23:43

about the legit idea of a

23:45

conspiracy and who could have been

23:48

involved, like, for real. Yeah, because

23:50

again, how did this petty criminal

23:52

plan an assassination that he successfully

23:54

carried out? And then also in

23:56

a panic like dropped the murder

23:58

weapon and ran off in a

24:01

place where it would be found

24:03

within a minute or two. Yeah.

24:05

Where did he get the funding

24:07

that he would need to support

24:09

himself for a year on the

24:11

lamb and then to travel abroad?

24:14

to flee after the assassination. These

24:16

are just a few of the

24:18

questions people have come up with.

24:20

And the obvious solution is that

24:22

he had help in some way,

24:24

shape, or form. But another really

24:26

big question that I think that

24:29

a lot of people overlook is

24:31

why? Like why did he... murder

24:33

Martin Luther King Jr. He wasn't

24:35

known as a fanatic. He was

24:37

a racist and like we said

24:39

he supported George Wallace for his

24:42

segregationist presidential bid, but he wasn't

24:44

like a fanatic. And also like

24:46

he didn't have any particularly deep

24:48

emotions one way or another for

24:50

MLK. He just was his murderer

24:52

and it just does not make

24:55

a lot of sense. Yeah, so

24:57

after he retracted that confession just

24:59

days after his conviction, he started

25:01

saying, I was set up, and

25:03

I was set up by a

25:05

guy named Raoul. So supposedly he

25:08

had a lot of interactions with

25:10

this Raoul guy, but he went

25:12

from describing him as a Latino

25:14

with blonde hair to a French

25:16

Canadian with red hair. Nobody ever

25:18

witnessed him with anyone that looked

25:21

like either one of those people.

25:23

A lot of people think there

25:25

is no Raoul at all. but

25:27

he still could have had help

25:29

you know from someone else. Yeah,

25:31

so you mentioned congressional committees who

25:34

that concluded that there was some

25:36

sort of conspiracy One of them

25:38

was a house select committee on

25:40

assassinations in 1978 They said that

25:42

there was a likelihood of conspiracy

25:44

in the assassination of dr. King,

25:47

but they didn't think it was

25:49

like Raoul was involved or anything

25:51

like that right it was much

25:53

more pedestrian a mundane and in

25:55

my opinion than much more likely

25:57

as far as the conspiracy theories

26:00

go, but they put it on

26:02

two prominent but shady St. Louisans.

26:04

I'm pretty sure that's what you

26:06

call people from St. Louis. One

26:08

was a former stockbroker who became

26:10

a motel owner. His name was

26:13

John R. Kaufman. The other was

26:15

a patent lawyer in town named

26:17

John H. Sutherland. Both of them

26:19

were dead by the time the

26:21

committee hearings were held in 1978.

26:23

But they supposedly put a bounty.

26:26

on MLK's head and James Earl

26:28

Ray, whose brother was a tavern

26:30

owner in St. Louis at the

26:32

time, heard about this bounty and

26:34

decided that he would go ahead

26:36

and murder and collect on the

26:39

bounty. And I also saw that

26:41

he probably believed that as a

26:43

white man he would never be

26:45

convicted of murdering a black man

26:47

in the South. And even if

26:49

he did, George Wallace was definitely

26:52

going to win the 1968 election

26:54

and George Wallace would pardon him.

26:56

So if you put all that

26:58

together, it really seems like a

27:00

pretty legitimate explanation for the whole

27:02

thing. Yeah, as far as Martin

27:05

Luther King Jr.'s widow, Coretta Scott

27:07

King, she was, she always thought

27:09

the FBI might have had something

27:11

to do with it. She knew

27:13

that they had been surveilled and

27:15

their phones had been tapped. She

27:18

thought they, you know, were a

27:20

possible, you know, bad actors. They

27:22

even, you know, this is sort

27:24

of startling and in fact it

27:26

startled the country in the late

27:28

90s. But they came around to

27:31

believing James or Ray, Dexter Scott

27:33

King, one of his sons, visited

27:35

James or Ray in prison. They

27:37

pushed for him to get an

27:39

appeal. He apparently asked him point

27:41

blank, like, did you kill my

27:44

father? And James or Ray said,

27:46

no, I didn't. No. And then

27:48

apparently he also said, but like

27:50

I say, sometimes these questions are

27:52

difficult to answer. Sometimes you have

27:54

to make your own evaluation. It

27:57

may become to the conclusion. I

27:59

think that could be done today,

28:01

but not 30 years ago. None

28:03

of that makes any sense. No,

28:05

because it isn't difficult to say

28:07

you either did or you did

28:10

not commit murder. Yeah, but as

28:12

shocking as this meeting was, they

28:14

got on board and said, I

28:16

don't think you did this. I

28:18

think you were Patsy. I think

28:20

you were set up. And a

28:23

lot of Americans were confused and

28:25

a lot were offended. A Pulitzer

28:27

Prize winning biographer of Martin Luther

28:29

King Jr. David Garrow. said that

28:31

Dexter King's support was of Ray

28:33

was egregious and embarrassing. Yeah. I

28:36

say we take a break and

28:38

we come back and kind of

28:40

get stick with the late 90s

28:42

because they were kind of the

28:44

90s were a big decade for

28:46

conspiracy theories and the MLK assassination.

28:49

How about that? Yeah, let's do

28:51

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Charlie Heller is the CIA's

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31:21

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31:23

Rought with grief, Charlie decides

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her killers must pay. He

31:27

implores his CIA superiors to

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send him to train under

31:31

Agent Henderson to become a

31:33

skilled assassin after a few

31:35

field tests. Henderson is convinced

31:37

that no matter how much

31:39

training Charlie receives, he will

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31:43

to become a killer. But

31:45

Charlie doesn't let this stop

31:47

him and without the support

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31:53

Charlie must use his biggest

31:55

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31:57

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31:59

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32:01

Starring Academy Award winner Rami

32:03

Mallick, Rachel Broznihan, Katrina Balfe,

32:05

Michael Stuhlberg, an Academy Award

32:07

nominee, Lawrence Fishburn, the amateur

32:09

rated PG-13, only in theaters

32:11

and... Max April 11th. So

32:13

there's an attorney named William

32:15

Pepper who was a And

32:17

he's not someone that a

32:19

lot of people thought a

32:21

lot of in his career.

32:23

He'd been described as disgraceful

32:25

by some, the most gullible

32:27

person I've ever met by

32:29

someone else. He was readily

32:31

and willing to just malign

32:33

innocent people to get his

32:35

theories out there. And I

32:37

remember this happening. I didn't

32:39

watch it, but on the

32:41

25th anniversary of King's murder,

32:43

so I guess somewhere in

32:45

the mid-90s. He sold HBO.

32:47

on producing and broadcasting a

32:49

mock trial TV special of

32:51

James Earl Ray in which

32:53

Ray was acquitted by the

32:55

mock jury. Yeah. And so

32:57

that was, you know, whoo,

32:59

that's crazy, but it's a

33:01

mock trial on HBO and

33:03

it's a mock jury. It

33:05

doesn't mean anything. It just

33:07

basically promoted William Pepper in

33:09

his theories. But after that

33:11

special was aired. Conspiracy theories

33:13

about the MLK assassination got

33:15

a real boost because a

33:17

guy named Lloyd Jowers came

33:19

forward. He said he was

33:21

inspired to come forward by

33:23

the series and come clean

33:25

essentially after all of these

33:27

years. And he owned a

33:29

tavern in Memphis called Jim's

33:31

Grill, which just happened to

33:33

be located beneath Bessie Brewer's

33:35

boarding house where the fatal

33:37

shot that killed MLK was

33:39

fired from. And Lloyd Jowers

33:41

said that he was part

33:43

of a... big giant conspiracy

33:45

to murder MLK that included

33:47

the police, the FBI, the

33:49

mafia himself, and some other

33:51

just, you know, tangential players

33:53

who were all coming together

33:55

to kill King in order

33:57

to collect on a bunch

33:59

of money. Lloyd Jauer said

34:01

that he was him, just

34:03

him alone, was offered $100,000

34:05

to basically project to manage

34:07

the contract killing. Yeah, I

34:10

feel like if you're floating

34:12

a... conspiracy about an assassination,

34:14

if you just throw out

34:16

like local cops and mafia,

34:18

then you're probably halfway there.

34:20

Yeah, for sale. Yeah, oh

34:22

definitely, that'll get everybody's attention.

34:24

So Martin Luther King Jr.'s

34:26

family sued him for wrongful

34:28

death in civil court. Again,

34:30

this is not a criminal

34:32

trial or anything. They didn't

34:34

want money, they wanted a

34:36

hundred bucks, they basically wanted

34:38

to get all these claims

34:40

heard in court and have

34:42

it, you know, out in

34:44

public. They, this is sort

34:46

of shocking as well. The

34:48

family was represented by that

34:50

attorney, William Pepper, who had

34:52

represented James Hooray. The jury

34:54

did decide that Jowers and

34:56

others, including government agencies, had

34:58

been responsible for King's death.

35:00

So they actually won that

35:02

civil trial. They did. And

35:04

I read two things. I

35:06

read that Dexter King basically

35:08

said, like, we did this

35:10

so that, you know, to

35:12

prove that the investigation needed

35:14

to be reopened. And then

35:16

he also said, regardless of

35:18

whether it gets reopened or

35:20

not. This is like the

35:22

period on the sentence for

35:24

us. Like this just basically

35:26

supports everything we've always said.

35:28

Right. The Justice Department, the

35:30

Civil Rights Division, had simultaneously

35:32

launched an investigation into Lloyd

35:34

Jowers' claims. I guess they

35:36

seemed legitimate enough. But also

35:38

this investigation entailed claims made

35:40

by a former FBI agent

35:42

named Donald Wilson. And Wilson

35:44

said that he had been,

35:46

I guess he had been,

35:48

one of the people who

35:50

search through the Mustang that

35:52

James O'Rae got away in

35:54

and that he had found

35:56

some papers in this Mustang

35:58

that had info about the

36:00

JFK assassination. Okay. I think

36:02

Donald Wilson's like, how can

36:04

I get people to listen?

36:06

JFK. He also said that

36:08

the name Raoul was mentioned

36:10

in it as well in

36:12

these papers. And so the

36:14

Justice Department starts looking into

36:16

it and they concluded in

36:18

a report in 2000 that

36:20

this is all just kind

36:22

of BS to paraphrase. Yeah,

36:24

basically. He's out for a

36:26

book deal is what they

36:28

concluded. Percy Foreman, the original

36:30

attorney for James or Ray,

36:32

as far as he was

36:34

concerned, he thought Ray acted

36:36

alone. His biographer William Bradford

36:38

Huey also said, yeah, I

36:40

think he acted alone and

36:42

he was trying to just

36:44

become a bigger criminal and

36:46

like impress larger criminals that

36:48

he was a valuable guy

36:50

to work with. Right. Yeah.

36:52

There was an investigative reporter

36:54

too who investigated James Earl

36:56

Ray as investigative reporters do.

36:58

His name was George McMillan.

37:00

He interviewed a bunch of

37:02

Ray's fellow prisoners from the

37:04

Missouri prison that he broke

37:06

out of in 1967, and

37:08

they were like, yeah, he

37:10

was a huge drug dealer

37:12

in prison, like he was

37:14

rolling in it. One of

37:16

them claimed that he was

37:18

able to smuggle out $6,500.

37:21

from the prison. And in

37:23

today's money, that's about $60,000.

37:25

So that alone, if true,

37:27

satisfies that really big question

37:29

about how could this petty

37:31

criminal support himself for a

37:33

year on the lamb. 60K

37:35

can go a long way,

37:37

especially if you're committing other

37:39

crimes. But yeah, it sounds

37:41

like he blew a lot

37:43

of it on bartending school

37:45

and dance lessons. Still, you

37:47

could live for a year

37:49

on 60K, no problem. Yeah,

37:51

and he had to buy

37:53

some of that camera equipment

37:55

because he tried to be

37:57

a porn director in Mexico.

37:59

That's right. So I guess we're at

38:01

the point now where we can

38:03

kind of talk a little bit

38:05

about, you know, had the sliding

38:08

doors gone another way and had

38:10

that March gone forward on April

38:12

4th and maybe James Oray doesn't

38:14

get that shot, what would have

38:16

happened had King been around? I

38:18

guess we'll talk at first about

38:20

what happened since that did occur

38:23

was that he was an instant

38:25

martyr. you know for all practical

38:27

purposes he was he was

38:29

sainted in that moment. It

38:31

was just so sudden it was

38:34

so violent and the polling you

38:36

know we talked about polling in

38:38

episode one about how white Americans

38:40

felt about him. In 1966

38:42

people polled 36% of all Americans

38:45

had a favorable opinion of king,

38:47

27% of white America and in

38:49

2011 That number had gone to

38:51

93% of white Americans had a

38:53

favorable view of King and 81%

38:55

of all American adults Said he

38:57

had a positive impact on the

38:59

US So that's from 66 to

39:01

2011, but that was also happening

39:03

at the time like in the

39:06

days and months before and after

39:08

there was a stark difference right?

39:10

Yeah, there was an almost immediate

39:12

change in opinion of him after

39:14

he died It was like

39:16

the band Cinderella said you

39:18

don't know what you got

39:20

till it's gone There was

39:22

this just complete happenstance study

39:24

that had been carried out

39:27

in February and March of

39:29

1968, where they sent 10,000

39:31

surveys to college and university

39:33

trustees, I guess to take a

39:35

pulse on the university and

39:37

college trustee subculture, that

39:39

asked, among other things,

39:42

how they felt about Martin Luther

39:44

King, how they felt about his

39:46

views, how much they aligned with

39:48

their own views. And after MLK

39:51

was assassinated, they went through and

39:53

they separated the surveys that they'd

39:55

received before his death and after

39:57

his death. And there was a

40:00

stark... difference. Before he was assassinated

40:02

36% of the respondents said that

40:04

they held similar views to King.

40:06

After the assassination that rose to

40:08

50% this is within a couple

40:11

weeks. Yeah. Before the assassination 30%

40:13

more than 30% said that King's

40:15

views were very unlike theirs. Afterward

40:17

it dropped down to 19% yeah.

40:19

So it was happening in real

40:22

time and we know that thanks

40:24

to that that poll. And it's

40:26

really hard to overstate the effect,

40:28

the immediate effect that his assassination

40:30

had on the conscience of the

40:32

United States. I think it really

40:35

made a lot of probably everyday

40:37

racist Americans really rethink themselves, you

40:39

know, that at the time you

40:41

could dislike Martin Luther King Jr.

40:43

He was alive, he was railing

40:46

against Vietnam and going on about

40:48

poor people and everything, but now

40:50

he's gone murdered and just... Something

40:52

like that can really shock people

40:54

into focusing more on themselves and

40:57

on their viewpoints than otherwise you

40:59

would. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

41:01

one thing that definitely came out

41:03

of this was Lyndon Johnson kind

41:05

of used this to get the

41:07

Fair Housing Act of 1968 passed.

41:10

It had failed in 66 and

41:12

67. So it wasn't a bill

41:14

that looked like it had an

41:16

immediate future. He kind of did

41:18

the same thing with the Civil

41:21

Rights Act of 64 right after

41:23

JFK was assassinated. So, you know,

41:25

very politically savvy to kind of

41:27

get these things passed through when

41:29

the nation would have been more

41:32

on board with that and politicians

41:34

would have been more on board.

41:36

Maybe wouldn't have been able to

41:38

get it passed through in 68

41:40

and then he had already announced

41:42

that he wasn't running for re-election

41:45

before the assassination. given what happened

41:47

with Nixon and then Reagan coming

41:49

in, if King had lived, it's

41:51

doubtful that he would have had

41:53

the kind of relationship that he

41:56

had with Johnson. with those two

41:58

guys. Yeah, but remember also that

42:00

he and Johnson had already had

42:02

a rift because of MLK's more

42:04

open vocal stance against Vietnam. Yeah.

42:07

And you know he would have

42:09

definitely kept railing against Vietnam so

42:11

that rift would have widened even

42:13

further. And also general Americans opinions

42:15

of him probably would have declined

42:17

even further because remember after that

42:20

1967 Vietnam speech. his popularity, especially

42:22

among white Americans, just plummeted, in

42:24

part because he called the U.S.

42:26

government the greatest purveyor of violence

42:28

in the world today, that's a

42:31

pretty direct shot against, you know,

42:33

the government. And if you are

42:35

all about the government and this,

42:37

you know, black civil rights leaders

42:39

saying stuff like that, you're going

42:42

to take your angst out on

42:44

the black civil rights leader who's

42:46

saying it, rather than stopping and

42:48

questioning whether he's right. Yeah, for

42:50

sure. A lot of people point

42:53

out that like, like... the he

42:55

would have continued to work for

42:57

civil rights for black Americans but

42:59

also may have started champion in

43:01

the cause of the LGBTQ rights

43:03

as a community. Corretta Scott King

43:06

vocally supported this stuff you know

43:08

after his passing and Martin Luther

43:10

King Jr. worked very closely with

43:12

a gentleman named Bayard Rustin and

43:14

openly gay civil rights advocate who

43:17

who could have kept himself in

43:19

the closet, but very much was

43:21

out. And so people think that,

43:23

yeah, King probably would have taken

43:25

up that cause as well later

43:28

on. Yeah, we did an episode

43:30

from 2015 on the March on

43:32

Washington. We talked about Bayard rested

43:34

a lot. Yeah. He's also often

43:36

compared to Nelson Mandel, had MLK

43:38

live, they people say like he.

43:41

might have followed some sort of

43:43

trajectory similar to Nelson Mandela's, but

43:45

Mandela became president of South Africa.

43:47

Would MLK have ever run for

43:49

president? From what I saw most

43:52

historians say, probably not, that was

43:54

never an... aspiration of his. And

43:56

in fact, he actually turned down

43:58

an offer to run on a

44:00

third party ticket, the People's Party

44:03

ticket, for the 1968 election with

44:05

pediatrician, the author of the very

44:07

famous baby book, Dr. Benjamin Spock,

44:09

who had turned anti-war activists as

44:11

his vice president. So he probably

44:13

would not have ever run for

44:16

president, but he still would have

44:18

remained a very potent powerful voice

44:20

for civil rights for everybody. Had

44:22

he not been assassinated, I don't

44:24

think his legacy would be anything

44:27

like it is today. Yeah, how

44:29

great though would it have been

44:31

to be able to source a

44:33

King Spock 68 t-shirt or bumper

44:35

sticker? I guess somebody dummied that

44:38

up or else it got far

44:40

enough that somebody made buttons because

44:42

I saw an image of that

44:44

on the internet. Yeah, I don't

44:46

know if it was made up

44:48

or not. You can't tell these

44:51

days, you know. You can't. And

44:53

then this all culminated finally with

44:55

Martin Luther King Jr. the National

44:57

Holiday. The campaign for that federal

44:59

holiday began just a few days

45:02

after he was killed in 1968.

45:04

Representative John Conyers, a Democrat from

45:06

Michigan. reintroduced that legislation every single

45:08

year with the backing of the

45:10

Congressional Black Caucus, which he helped

45:13

found and it was denied every

45:15

single year until 15 years later

45:17

when President Ronald Reagan signed that

45:19

bill making the third Monday in

45:21

January of Federal Holiday, and then

45:23

it was first observed in 1986

45:26

by everybody very famously except for

45:28

Arizona. They were the last holdout,

45:30

and I remember this happening very

45:32

well. Mainly because the great great

45:34

song by the time I get

45:37

to Arizona by public enemy that

45:39

came out So we got that

45:41

out of it, which is pretty

45:43

great. But the NFL was like,

45:45

you know what, you're not getting

45:48

the Super Bowl in 1993. And

45:50

then after that, they said, all

45:52

right, we'll get on board. So

45:54

we can have a Super Bowl.

45:56

Whatever it takes, by any means

45:59

necessary. Arizona, get it together. They

46:01

did. That was way back in

46:03

1993. Those people, those policy makers

46:05

are all dead and gone by

46:07

now. I lived in Arizona. I

46:09

love that place. Oh yeah. That's

46:12

right, Yuma, Yuma, right. Yuma, right.

46:14

Do you ever take the 310?

46:16

Uh, no trains. Uh, no trains.

46:18

Uh, okay. Well, since I made

46:20

Chuck laugh, I think that we

46:23

should end on a high note

46:25

here and say that it's time

46:27

for listener mail. That's right. I'm

46:29

pointing out a Josh mass error.

46:31

Oh, great. So sorry. Let's do

46:34

it. Hey guys, always laughing hearing

46:36

when you quickly correct yourselves before

46:38

the email start. I didn't hear

46:40

that one today, though, and I'm

46:42

sure you're getting more than just

46:44

this email. Actually Andrew we didn't

46:47

you were the only one that

46:49

caught this. Oh nice way to

46:51

go Andrew this was in the

46:53

What would this have been? GPS

46:55

I guess okay. Oh by the

46:58

way I never posted that that

47:00

That uh what do you call

47:02

it when things intersect the Venn

47:04

diagram that I said you that

47:06

said bingo I need to put

47:09

that on our Instagram. Yeah, please

47:11

too. I'll do it. Hey guys

47:13

when Josh was describing the 2D

47:15

tri-lateration Circles and distance from Denver,

47:17

he said to draw a circle

47:19

around the named city with a

47:22

diameter of distance described, but that

47:24

would be a circle half too

47:26

small. You need a circle with

47:28

a radius for that distance or

47:30

a diameter of twice that radius.

47:33

Your compass would be said to

47:35

the width of the distance you

47:37

are from the city and you

47:39

draw that circle which would give

47:41

you a circle around a city

47:44

where every point on that circle

47:46

is that described distance. from City

47:48

Center Point. That makes sense. And

47:50

this is from an electrical engineer

47:52

in Knoxville Tennessee Andrew White who

47:54

said it It makes me happy

47:57

to listen and learn from you

47:59

all each day. So I trust

48:01

you Andrew, because you're an electrical

48:03

engineer. Yeah, Andrew White, the fastest

48:05

compass in Tennessee. Thanks a lot,

48:08

Andrew. I totally get that. That

48:10

was very well explained. Better than

48:12

I explained it, for sure. And

48:14

if you want to be like

48:16

Andrew and correct my math, there's

48:19

not really much sport in it,

48:21

but you can still do it

48:23

anyway by sending us an email

48:25

to Stuff Podcast at I Heart

48:27

Radio. Stuff

48:32

you should know is a production of

48:34

I Heart Radio. For more podcasts, My

48:36

Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio

48:38

app. Apple podcasts or wherever you listen

48:41

to your favorite shows. podcast.

49:21

Are your ears bored? Yeah.

49:23

Are you looking for a

49:26

new podcast that will make

49:28

you laugh, learn, and say,

49:30

gee? Yeah! Then tune in

49:32

to Locatora Radio, season 10,

49:35

today. Okay. Now that's what

49:37

I call a podcast. I'm

49:39

Tiosa. I'm Mala. The host

49:42

of Locatora Radio, a radiophonic

49:44

no bela. Which is just

49:46

a very extra way of

49:48

saying. A podcast. podcasts.