0:04

You are listening to a

0:06

Sustainable World Radio podcast. Sustainable

0:09

World Radio brings you in-depth

0:11

interviews, news and commentary about

0:14

positive solutions to environmental challenges.

0:18

Solutions that adhere to the

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permaculture ethics of earth care,

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people care, fair share. Are

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you interested in learning more about permaculture projects

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around the globe? How to plant

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a food forest, restorative design

0:31

or ethnobotany? Then

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stay tuned for Sustainable World

0:36

Radio. I'm your host

0:38

and producer, Jill Cloutier. Our

0:50

guest today is Javin Vernakovich. Javin

0:53

is a regenerative life and

0:56

land designer, educator and facilitator.

0:59

Javin is the principal consultant

1:01

at All Points Land Design,

1:03

where he works on small

1:05

to large-scale landscapes. Javin

1:07

also works with individuals providing assistance

1:10

on how to design your life

1:12

to work with and not against

1:14

your nature. Javin

1:16

founded and operates Permaculture BC,

1:18

an educational and community hub

1:21

for permaculture in British Columbia,

1:23

Canada. You can learn

1:26

more about Javin and his work

1:28

at allpointsdesign.ca. Welcome

1:31

to Sustainable World Radio, Javin. It's

1:33

really great to be able to

1:36

chat with you today about life design and how

1:38

we can live a more

1:40

purposeful, fulfilling and impactful life.

1:42

So I'm really looking forward to learning from

1:44

you today. Thanks

1:47

so much, Jill. It's such a pleasure to talk

1:49

to you again. I really enjoyed our chat about

1:51

spelanthes, as I always do, speaking about

1:53

things that are close to my heart. Well,

1:56

Javin, you really came to

1:58

this work and instilled that. this life

2:00

design work with a deep understanding

2:03

of how to create a life of purpose.

2:05

And I wanted to let listeners know that

2:08

you have a really interesting background. And in

2:10

the past, you had many jobs. You were

2:12

an environmental educator, which is something that we

2:15

share. I worked with kids for years, educating

2:17

about the environment. And

2:20

you had worked with natural

2:22

building. You almost became a

2:24

financial advisor. And

2:27

that was interesting. And so

2:29

I think you also in the past went

2:32

through some depression as well. And so

2:34

it sounds like you haven't always known

2:36

what you wanted and how to design

2:38

your life. And so I'm just

2:40

curious, how

2:42

did your background and kind of

2:45

your life experiences help

2:47

you in your life design work? Hmm,

2:50

that's such a good question. Yeah,

2:53

for me it started when I was

2:55

born. I might've said this in the

2:58

previous podcast or maybe not, but I

3:00

came in with two questions. Who

3:02

am I and what am I

3:04

doing here? And those came, those

3:07

came so to speak. I'm

3:09

in this place where I wanna

3:11

understand myself. I wanna understand my

3:15

life and what I have to offer.

3:17

And I have a sense of wanting

3:19

to offer something to others and

3:22

to help and to be of

3:24

service. And so I

3:26

became very interested about searching and exploring.

3:28

I looked through a number of different

3:31

religions. I looked through a number of

3:33

different organizations. I was always

3:35

really interested in, well, where

3:37

do I fit? Where can I be

3:39

of value? Where can I be

3:41

totally expressed? And it's either

3:43

William Shakespeare or Pablo Picasso, the

3:45

jury's out on it. But that

3:49

said, this idea, our

3:51

purpose in life is to find our gifts and to give

3:53

them meaningfully to others. And

3:56

that's been my rinse and repeat

3:58

conversation to my own personal

4:01

development and what I have to offer to the

4:03

world and has really helped a lot

4:05

of clients in that we

4:07

aren't one thing. We're not a monoculture.

4:09

We're not one aspect or

4:11

one attribute or one thought we have

4:14

or one behavior. We are

4:16

the multitude. We have lots to offer. There's parts

4:18

of us that are creatives

4:20

and artists. There's parts of us that

4:23

are doers. There are parts of us

4:25

that are altruistic. There are parts of

4:27

us that are highly selfish and even

4:29

narcissistic. What I found with life design

4:31

and cultivation, it's about holding a center space,

4:33

really listening to all those parts and

4:36

to getting a sense of what's coming up

4:38

over and over again. What are the rhymes?

4:40

What are the things that rhyme consistently in

4:42

my life? What are the melodies in my

4:45

life? That's been really fulfilling

4:47

to use that type of approach

4:50

because I come back to I love

4:52

these types of conversations. I could be

4:54

a guest about life design on a

4:56

podcast every single week and be very,

4:58

very happy because I love talking about

5:01

them. It really deeply fulfills

5:03

me. So much for me

5:06

of my background has been really

5:09

coming back to what I used to call Wellspring. What's

5:11

the well? What's the artisanal well within me

5:13

that continually springs forth or as I talk

5:16

about it now, essence. What's that piece of essence

5:18

that I have that just doesn't

5:20

matter what I'm talking about, doesn't matter who I'm

5:22

with. It always comes back

5:25

up. One of the funny ways

5:27

in the 21st century, you can figure this

5:29

out is what are you constantly searching? What

5:33

are you constantly reading about? What do you

5:35

have an infinite amount of time for? Those

5:39

are some of the first discerning questions I

5:41

use with folks who, and I

5:43

have a lot of folks who come with a number of issues

5:45

or problems they won't solve, but the folks that want the who

5:48

am I and what am I doing here and how can

5:50

I give myself meaningfully to this life. Some

5:52

of the first questions, what are you constantly looking

5:55

at? What is coming up for you? What do

5:57

you have 150 browser tabs open on? what

6:01

podcast you listen to, things like that. And

6:04

you know I think you also talk about

6:06

this and we'll be getting more into more

6:09

the nitty-gritty of this in a bit but

6:11

of perennial passions right like what are the

6:13

things that really you find yourself through the

6:15

years thinking about and like what

6:17

is it that breaks your heart over and over

6:19

again like it's 3 a.m. if you

6:22

worry about things some people find themselves up

6:24

at night worrying and it's like what is

6:26

the one issue or two issues that you

6:29

really find yourself over and over and I

6:31

think that's a valuable tool as well. Yeah

6:34

I think for people who are on the

6:36

more reactive side

6:39

of the scale that can be a

6:41

great question. It's funny though I've worked

6:43

with clients who are not very reactive

6:45

they know they want to do something

6:47

but they don't their body doesn't produce

6:49

that worry and so they're

6:51

almost this you know salt flat

6:54

sort of visualization where they're like I just

6:56

don't know and like and then I'll

6:58

ask questions like that well what's going on for you

7:00

and what's worrisome like I don't really worry about much

7:02

I just don't know and

7:06

that can be physiological that could

7:08

be pathological that can be some that

7:10

can be some some aspect on

7:12

the biological system and is

7:15

normally something like that in which case I

7:17

refer them to a number of folks who are good

7:19

at toxicology and they usually either

7:21

spin totally up and they're fine or they

7:23

come back years later but those

7:26

are great questions I think for folks that

7:28

are you know they like to perseverate

7:30

they like to think over and over like wow

7:32

I keep thinking about this and on the other

7:34

side for folks that have been

7:36

wounded deeply as as we all have in

7:39

some way shape or form as

7:41

kids those wounds can be the crucible of

7:43

the gift that they have to make in

7:45

the world this is true even of us

7:47

biologically if we have a wound we will

7:50

guard against it and we'll build muscle around the

7:52

other side of it so we've literally built a

7:54

skill that nobody else has and

7:57

I think that's where my work going

7:59

through my under depression and still

8:02

being very on guard about it because it's

8:04

like a sprained ankle. Once you've been as

8:06

chronically depressed as I was, it's

8:08

easy to get back into it. And as I was just

8:11

talking with my husband last night, we've

8:13

had a plague of locust in the garden

8:15

where, and heat wave,

8:18

right? We're in the cool

8:20

tropics in Canada. We

8:22

get deep winter, we get minus 20 Celsius,

8:26

and we get a foot and a half of snow. And

8:28

normally we get temperatures between about 20

8:31

and 35 Celsius. But

8:33

we just had a heat wave of 50 degree

8:35

plus. Our thermometer only goes to 50 C,

8:37

which I think is 120 or 122 Fahrenheit,

8:39

something like that. And

8:42

so I came back because I was visiting friends for a

8:44

couple of days, and it just happened to be over the

8:47

heat wave. And I was like, ah, I think we'll be

8:49

OK. Set up the irrigation, make

8:51

sure everything's right. Come back. The

8:54

plants have crisped. The berries have boiled

8:56

on the bushes. And because of a

8:58

dry spring and the

9:01

way dry springs work, grasshopper

9:04

larvae aren't introduced

9:06

to a fungi that usually wipes out a good

9:08

portion of their population. And

9:10

then basically these solitary critters, these

9:12

grasshoppers at some point, get

9:15

a spike of serotonin. And instead of being

9:18

solitary, they become gregarious. They get longer wingspan.

9:20

And then they turn to locust. And I

9:23

come back to my garden, and 70% is eaten. The

9:26

currants leaves have all been eaten. The

9:28

hazcap leaves are being eaten. The peas,

9:30

the beans, the beets. I just plant

9:32

beets. Oh my gosh. And

9:35

all the strawberries, just planted 450 strawberries, and

9:38

they're all gone. What

9:40

a loss. Yeah, it's a

9:42

loss. And it's

9:45

also an opportunity in

9:47

all things to be present to the feelings that are

9:49

inside of us, to go, OK, what's

9:51

inside? What's alive right now? And for

9:54

me, I was really

9:56

on guard because of the depression. I was like, OK,

9:58

wait a second. I can drop really. quickly

10:00

here. So what am

10:02

I learning? What's available to me right

10:04

now? What am I pushing anything down?

10:07

Because depression in my experience is literally

10:09

depressing feelings you don't want to feel.

10:12

And so I took a little walk,

10:15

screamed and yelled at the locust, got

10:17

out my diatomaceous earth, blessed them with

10:19

a number of expletives as well as

10:21

diatomaceous earth. I thought, okay, what can

10:24

I learn from this? What can I

10:26

bring from this? Why is this a

10:28

good situation? And this is one

10:30

of the tools I teach within

10:32

the toolbox of tools of

10:35

sovereignty for clients is we

10:37

have to actively start to train

10:39

our response. We are incubated in

10:42

a culture that says react to everything, have

10:45

a big reaction, have a big feeling. And

10:48

yet most of the sages of

10:50

antiquity and history say to

10:52

be careful of your reactions and to be

10:54

very observant of what's going on and not

10:56

to attach to those reactions. And so one

10:59

of the first tools I teach clients

11:02

is to respond to everything that

11:04

is emotionally reactive with interesting. Somebody

11:07

just told you, you just changed your

11:09

life. Well, that's interesting. Locusts

11:13

just ate 70% of your garden. Interesting.

11:16

You just won the lottery.

11:18

Interesting. You were

11:20

just given an amazing, beautiful,

11:22

incredible gift by a colleague.

11:24

Interesting. But to take that

11:26

first moment to go interesting and then to allow

11:29

the feeling to be experienced through that lens of

11:31

interesting instead of saying, Oh, this is the best

11:33

thing ever. Oh, I want more of this. Oh,

11:35

now I'm attached to this feeling. Oh, give me,

11:37

give me, give me. This

11:39

training process of starting with interesting

11:42

helps us to create some distance

11:45

between us and the emotional reactions that

11:47

we have been steeped in and have

11:49

been genetically reared to have and have

11:51

lots of good reasons for having them.

11:54

But then we graduate to fascinating and I'm,

11:56

I'm a Star Trek fan. So the next

11:58

level of this is the eyebrow. raises

12:00

Spock had and fascinating and it has a little

12:02

bit of curiosity to it and what I find

12:04

was fascinating which is my go-to these days is

12:07

that it's impossible

12:09

to be angry and curious at

12:12

the same time. I've been trying

12:14

ever since I was told this

12:16

many years ago and it

12:18

is it's very very difficult so if

12:20

I if I stoke the flames of

12:22

curiosity then

12:24

I build capacity to move past

12:26

my reaction and anger this

12:29

is a good point to say it anger is

12:31

a secondary emotion it's not a primary emotion anger

12:33

is a response to a primary

12:35

emotion of fear of frustration of

12:37

anxiety of loss of

12:39

disappointment it's it's the

12:41

feeling of the feeling and that's

12:44

what's so interesting to me about anger is

12:46

that it is a secondary emotion and to

12:48

be very cautious about that because behind

12:51

anger it's kind of like I don't

12:54

know if you ever watched Scooby-Doo when you were young. Oh

12:56

I loved it. Right and it

12:58

was always the like who's behind

13:00

the mask every

13:02

single week it was always

13:04

someone masquerading as somebody else

13:06

and it's very much the

13:08

same there's always another emotion

13:10

masquerading behind anger and

13:12

this opportunity of saying interesting fascinating

13:15

and then climaxing to good

13:18

and great gives

13:20

us the opportunity to interact

13:22

with this opportunity of

13:24

a new piece of feedback.

13:28

You then you're a master of your

13:30

reaction because I feel like so much

13:32

of our at my I can speak

13:34

for myself life force energy is frittered

13:37

away in that anxiety and tension and

13:39

stress and so I think that's really

13:41

important when you can stop

13:44

a moment and then think okay how

13:46

can I be curious about this instead of

13:48

just reacting but it would take

13:50

training and skill I would think right

13:52

or I guess repetition and practice. Yeah

13:56

you know more and more I think of

13:58

what I do in my work

14:00

is to train folks in a couple

14:02

of tools, a couple of processes, and

14:04

it's like going to the gym. You

14:07

have to go consistently, you have to practice consistently,

14:10

or nothing will change. One

14:12

thing that you said in our previous

14:14

conversation in our other episode, and

14:17

in doing the research about you, I

14:19

read repeatedly was that you say if

14:21

we don't design our lives, someone else

14:23

will or probably already has. So

14:26

Javan, if you could share with us what

14:28

the signs are of an undesigned life. How

14:33

can you tell if you haven't designed your life?

14:36

That's a great question. I've never been asked that

14:38

question, and I'm really excited to answer it

14:40

because I think it will have a lot

14:42

of value. Kudos,

14:45

Jill, kudos. So

14:47

symptoms of an undesigned life are aspects

14:50

of your life are choosing you instead of you choosing

14:52

them. This

14:54

came predominantly from my work with folks who

14:56

have addictions and had gone through

14:58

a number of conventional ways of working with addiction,

15:00

and they wanted to see if my work had

15:02

any value. I'm very upfront with people.

15:04

I'm not a counselor, I'm not a therapist, I'm not

15:06

a doctor, I don't play one on the internet. I'm

15:09

a guy who's made it through quite a bit

15:11

and has some tools that work really well. As

15:14

a client of mine once said, it's kind of

15:16

like you're a sherpa. You help

15:18

us decide where to go. You

15:21

take some of our baggage. You help us chart a course.

15:24

You help us learn how to get there. You help us

15:26

acclimatize when we're there. When we're there, you give us back

15:28

our baggage and you say, I'd probably get

15:30

rid of this, this, and this, and this is how I would

15:32

do it. If you want to, I can help you. When

15:37

that person in particular came to me, a couple

15:40

of the things they were saying that made

15:42

them think that their life was not being

15:44

designed by them was that it

15:46

was being chosen for them. They

15:48

were going through the motions of their life but

15:51

not feeling like they had any control over what

15:53

was happening. They were

15:55

having a lot of experiences with substances

15:57

or processes because we can be just as addicted

16:00

to process as we can with substance. We can

16:02

be very addicted to doing things in a certain

16:04

way because it gives us a sense of safety

16:06

or parts of us a sense of safety. Problems

16:10

with decision making, problems saying no. Not really

16:14

understanding why you do the things you do

16:16

or how the makeup,

16:19

the wiring or the plumbing of you

16:21

was created and you are

16:24

a bit of a servant

16:26

to your mind. There's an old saying

16:28

that the mind is an incredible ally

16:32

or an incredible servant but a terrible master.

16:34

If we come to our lives from

16:37

any one aspect of our persona

16:39

or of our body,

16:41

our mind, our spirit, chances are

16:43

we're going to miss out on

16:46

other aspects in our life. That

16:48

can be a really big indicator.

16:50

Spinning the gears, feeling stuck in

16:52

place, feeling stalled or stagnated, feeling

16:56

a malaise or just a

16:58

lack of initiative can be another piece

17:00

there. The

17:03

other one is really wanting

17:05

to give the best of

17:07

themselves to others. I just got an

17:10

inquiry for a good fit call which is where

17:12

all of my potential clients

17:15

start off with. He'd come

17:17

out and he says, I just want to be

17:19

the best dad and the best husband I can

17:21

and I know I have work to do which

17:23

I thought was an incredibly responsible attitude

17:26

and perspective. It's going to be some of

17:28

them. Interesting. You've

17:31

worked with the land on

17:34

large and small scale

17:37

land design work. I'm just

17:39

curious, what you basically are doing, Javan, is

17:41

along with all of your other teachings and

17:44

life experience is teaching

17:46

people how to design their life by

17:49

working with and not against their nature

17:51

which I just love because to me

17:53

that's the whole gist of permaculture. Can

17:57

you tell us what would be an example of

17:59

that? Yeah, so

18:02

there's this conversation that's going on right

18:04

now of radical

18:07

integrity, radical authenticity, radical

18:10

honesty, this idea of

18:12

constantly searching for your

18:14

quote-unquote authentic self. So

18:17

if you take a look at a landscape and

18:19

if the landscape is expressing itself that

18:22

there's been a recent disturbance

18:24

and there's lots of thistle, there's

18:27

lots of quote-unquote invasives or

18:29

pioneers, that is still an

18:32

inherently authentic landscape. Similarly,

18:35

we are authentic in every single

18:37

moment. Every single moment is

18:39

an authentic expression of the parts and

18:41

the aspects of us and how we're

18:43

bringing them to the forefront. What

18:45

we usually do is there we usually have parts of

18:48

us that think we should be a certain way, we

18:50

should be smarter, we should be faster, we should be

18:52

this, we should be that, and

18:54

they bulk at the idea that we're

18:56

having the feelings we're having. Well,

18:59

just like when a little child comes up

19:01

and says, this is really a problem for

19:03

me, if we don't listen to

19:06

that child, if we don't allow that child to express

19:08

what's going on for them, that

19:10

can become internalized as

19:12

long-term trauma. When

19:15

we work with our nature instead of against

19:17

our nature, we accept ourselves for all of

19:19

who we are, we

19:21

start to create an

19:24

awareness and an acknowledgement and

19:27

we start to compassionately interact with the

19:29

parts of us that are the way that they are,

19:32

the parts of us that love podcasting, the parts of

19:34

us that feel frustrated when a podcast doesn't happen the

19:36

way we want, the parts of us that want

19:39

to rail against whatever it is that created the locust

19:42

in my garden that have eaten 70% of my crop.

19:44

We have those parts

19:48

of us and we are

19:50

then able to go, wait a second, that's a part of me.

19:53

That played a role someplace in my life because it's

19:55

a part of me, so it's obviously done some good

19:57

for me at some point. How

19:59

do I want to... to interact with this part, this

20:01

feeling, this emotion, this behavior today. Just

20:04

as a composer or a conductor

20:07

or a soup maker will

20:09

make a beautiful symphony, will conduct an orchestra,

20:11

or will make an incredible soup, we have

20:13

to be careful about the ingredients that go

20:15

into it. So I

20:18

may have an entire array of

20:22

spices and flavors that I can bring to

20:24

any situation, but if I'm

20:26

always reaching for the Father knows best part

20:28

of me that is very strong and can

20:30

come out at any time,

20:34

it's even a turnoff to me and

20:37

to parts of me these days because

20:39

I'm not there to know best, I'm

20:41

there to listen deeply and to be

20:43

compassionate and when I see

20:45

other people bring that out and say well

20:47

you know this is just who I am

20:50

you can see the box they put

20:52

themselves into, right? They're saying oh this

20:54

is all I have to offer and

20:56

yet we know because we've lived

20:58

our lives that there's so much to us

21:01

and so when we work with somebody's nature

21:03

instead of against it, one

21:05

we don't deny anything that's happening. If

21:08

we're feeling frustrated, if we're feeling angry, if we're feeling

21:10

that person that such and such that so and so

21:12

we're not going to deny that. We're

21:14

just going to take a step and say oh

21:16

interesting a part of me feels, a

21:18

part of me thinks, a part of me is

21:21

behaving or if that's too much

21:23

for some folks because it was for me having

21:25

born and raised in Alberta which

21:27

I think we joked about last time was kind

21:29

of the one night stand product of Texas and

21:32

Montana. Very skeptical,

21:34

bigger, better buck, long rugged woodsman you know

21:36

like I don't know about this new age

21:38

wooboo and that's

21:41

a big part of me and was a large

21:43

portion of my personality years ago

21:46

but as I realize now if

21:48

that idea of a part of me is

21:50

too much I can just say oh

21:52

I have a feeling of inside of

21:54

me and what this does is it

21:56

disidentifies but acknowledges the feeling or behavior

21:59

and this is huge. This is like any

22:02

child who feels to

22:23

be us at 6 and 4 and 10, 12

22:26

who weren't acknowledged, who weren't able to process

22:28

the feelings they were having. And so they

22:30

started to create ways of being that are

22:32

now outmoded, outdated. The ways

22:34

that I respond to my husband or

22:37

my bonus daughters when the kitchen isn't

22:39

clean is not the

22:41

response that I would love

22:43

to have on a daily basis. And

22:46

so by working with my nature and going, interesting,

22:48

I've got this feeling coming up, how

22:50

do I in this moment want to respond?

22:53

That becomes the moment, the Genesis

22:55

point of true creation and true

22:58

sovereignty because now I choose. Right.

23:00

You have choice. And this really reminds

23:02

me so much of the permaculture principle

23:04

of observation. It's getting

23:06

into that place where it's like, okay, I'm not going to jump

23:09

in and do this right away. I'm going to observe a bit.

23:11

And it gives us that choice. I love that. And

23:14

it's a good practice. It's hard to do sometimes

23:16

in the moment. And so one part

23:19

of your work too, Javin, that

23:22

I really, but it was key

23:24

is that you stress that knowing

23:26

our values is really vital

23:28

to living a good life. And

23:31

some of us know our values and some of us, I

23:33

was talking to a friend about this and she said, well,

23:36

I know a few of my values, but how, what's the

23:38

way to get clear on this? Like what are the most

23:40

important values that I have and then how

23:43

to live a life that reflects our values? I

23:45

think that's a big challenge for many people. Yeah,

23:49

for sure. And was for me for a number

23:51

of years, just being able

23:53

and feeling like I could live my values.

23:55

And really, I think when I

23:58

talk to people, I think that's a big and

24:00

we have our good fit call, I get a better sense

24:02

of who they are and what's important to them. They

24:04

say this all the time, I just wanna

24:06

live my values. I want my values to

24:08

shine through my activities and I

24:11

want to pass those on to my children or

24:13

I wanna share that with my community. And

24:17

this was normally taken up in the way

24:19

that we were structured in our tribes, in

24:21

our societies, before we started to become hyper-individualistic,

24:24

which has its roots in capitalism

24:26

and has its roots in a

24:29

number of previous social

24:31

and anthropological changes and revolutions.

24:34

But as we come

24:36

today, and if anybody's out there thinking, well, how

24:38

do I figure out my values? One

24:40

of the things to do is to play the game of the

24:43

remarkable life. So if you put yourself 10, 20,

24:46

30 years in the future, whatever feels

24:49

monumental to you, whatever time

24:51

period, and it could be one year, it could be five year. Again,

24:54

remember that everything I say today is

24:56

completely tailored to you. Life's

24:59

100% negotiable. And

25:01

we just have to remember that so that way we can

25:03

take whatever is being given to us

25:06

and go, okay, I'll take the best, I'll lead

25:08

the rest, and I'll add something uniquely my own.

25:10

And this is not mine, this is Bruce Lee's

25:13

approach to life. And I think that's why he did

25:16

so phenomenally well going from Wing Chung

25:18

and then starting to develop his

25:21

many sourced martial

25:23

arts system. But when

25:25

you look into the future, you go, great, I go

25:27

to bed tonight, I have the most comfortable, the deepest,

25:29

the most beautiful sleep, I wake up tomorrow and it's

25:32

10, 20, 30 years in the future. Where

25:35

am I? What am I waking

25:37

up as a feeling or a thought? Who's

25:39

around me? What do

25:42

I go and do? What

25:44

are my surroundings about? What

25:46

do they look like? What do they feel like? What do they

25:48

smell like? What is my work that day?

25:51

What do I apply myself to?

25:54

What is my vocation? Have I

25:56

come to my calling? Am I doing the same

25:58

thing? Am I doing it with the same people? am I doing it with other

26:00

people? This is the

26:02

first step I work with when I start working with

26:05

values-based decision-making and it gives us a narrative and a

26:07

story and from that we start to pull out values.

26:10

What's important to a person if

26:12

somebody says, I wake

26:14

up in a place that's cozy and warm

26:17

and safe. It's like, oh interesting, do you

26:19

have a value of sanctuary? And

26:21

the moment you say sanctuary somebody goes, yeah

26:23

or somebody goes, yeah but it's home. Home

26:25

is always close at hand, that

26:29

was a value somebody recently said during a session.

26:32

And so as we pull out all these values we get

26:34

a sense of okay, that makes sense, that makes sense and

26:37

arguably this is the most important part, the

26:40

words don't matter. It's the feeling behind the

26:42

words that matter. I worked with a young

26:44

woman in Australia recently and she

26:46

came to me with a saying and it was

26:48

our value. It was, my body is a temple.

26:51

I said interesting, why are you bringing this to

26:53

me? Obviously you've thought of this and if

26:55

it was good you'd be fine with it.

26:58

She goes, I don't know, there's something about

27:00

the word temple. I said okay, well what

27:02

does temple mean to you? She goes, well

27:04

honoring, respecting, holding in

27:06

high regard, tending. I said

27:08

great, what do you not

27:10

like about temple? Well temple means

27:13

religion and authority and control.

27:16

I said okay, so what if

27:18

I honor, respect and

27:20

pay homage to my body? And

27:23

the smile and the tear in her eye gave

27:26

me the sense that that's what she's seeking.

27:28

She's seeking to have that be true for

27:30

herself. Now if this

27:32

young woman decides every single day that this is

27:34

the truth and she won't allow

27:37

any decision to go past, be it what

27:39

somebody says to her, be it

27:41

how she operates on a day-to-day basis, be it

27:43

what she permits herself to do, then

27:46

by the end of the day that statement will be

27:48

more true than it was yesterday. And

27:51

this is basically the rinse and repeat process.

27:53

If anybody's listening and goes, oh

27:55

my god that sounds like a lot of work, it is. Building

28:00

muscle is a lot of work and good

28:02

things come with work But I

28:04

found that this work of holding myself

28:06

to the values I want my future

28:08

self to hold and then doing favors

28:10

for my future self by ensuring those

28:12

things come true helps

28:15

immeasurably What

28:18

I found with values is that as

28:20

I start to Put them

28:22

to the test when the rubber meets the road when

28:24

I start to actively make decisions. I Am

28:27

through them. I then refine them. This is the

28:29

coolest thing about this way of working Is that it

28:32

is the only tool that self-hones as you use

28:34

it a knife gets dull a

28:36

pick gets dull But as I as I use

28:39

these values to make decisions and I come back

28:41

to myself like oh, well, you know That

28:44

made sense when I wrote it or that made

28:46

sense last year But this

28:48

year what I really want is X and I'll

28:50

give you an example. So twice

28:52

a year. I check in with my values I do

28:54

it in December and I host a workshop now Internationally

28:57

for folks to connect with it and

28:59

then I do it around my birthday, which is coming up. I Tried

29:03

doing it on solstice, but it just it seemed too weird. I've

29:05

been doing it on my birthday for too long and Unfortunately,

29:08

if I'm gonna offer two workshops here, it should be

29:10

in June, but because I'm not doing it For

29:16

your value of doing it on your well, that's not

29:18

really a value your choice No,

29:20

I did no, that's exactly it. That was the point I was

29:22

about to make is that These

29:25

days I don't do anything unless I love it. I

29:27

just don't and yeah I

29:30

don't make as much money but man, you know,

29:32

my life satisfaction is through the roof, you know

29:34

When people say they want a successful

29:36

life. It's really interesting because success is

29:38

usually gauged externally You're

29:41

gauging it against somebody else you're saying

29:43

oh, I miss I'm as successful as

29:45

whereas if you want to live a

29:47

satisfied Life a life

29:49

of satisfaction You're usually

29:51

reaching internally and what's

29:54

so fascinating about our culture is when you ask

29:56

people that question What is it satisfied or what

29:58

is a satisfying life to you? They use? don't

30:00

know because they've never internally looked

30:02

inwardly. They're so interested in the

30:05

external, they're so interested in reacting

30:08

that they've never taken a moment to look

30:10

inwardly, especially on this continent. There's other continents

30:12

that are definitely further

30:14

along. I

30:16

tend to get a lot of people who are

30:18

in the same conundrum I was years ago of

30:21

really not listening to myself and that's, you know,

30:23

largely that's what this is, of listening

30:26

to oneself is to understanding one's

30:28

values and to really put it out there

30:30

and say, okay, well, if this is going to be true

30:32

today, what do I have to do

30:34

differently? I just got an email

30:36

from a farmer I'm working with right now on

30:38

values-based decision-making where we clarify

30:41

what are the values you want to be true for

30:43

yourself and then we use

30:45

those values to filter any

30:48

decision that comes your way and this is really useful

30:50

for people who have a hard time saying no, for

30:53

people who feel like others direct the

30:55

direction of their lives either through the

30:57

stories, narratives, or norms of their institutions,

31:00

their ancestors, their

31:02

immediate family, or folks

31:04

generally who have just a tough time making

31:06

decisions period. There's always so many

31:09

options and I'm always spinning my wheels. I

31:11

can just never get down to a real

31:13

decision. And so this client

31:16

who I've been working with, amazing farmer down in

31:18

the southern states, they had

31:21

a great quality of life statement, a daily

31:23

statement of purpose, and this is a great

31:25

way to start this process, is to pick

31:27

your current weakest link. Whatever the thing is

31:30

that is just the most frustrating if it's

31:32

finance, if it's quality time for yourself, if

31:34

it's self-care, if it's home, if it's friends,

31:37

if it's an expression of what's alive

31:40

in you in essence, just to pick

31:42

whatever that major weak link is and

31:45

to give it a positive statement. So theirs

31:48

was they felt squeezed all the time. All

31:51

their work, they always felt squeezed. And so we

31:53

just worked with, I feel, less squeezed. Really simple,

31:55

really easy, but that became their

31:57

daily statement of purpose and that becomes the lock squeeze.

32:00

screen of your phone, the lock screen of your computer,

32:02

the active wallpaper for both, it becomes a little card

32:04

that you put in your pocket, you pull out and

32:06

you look at and you go, I'm less squeezed. Okay,

32:08

if this is going to be true today, what

32:10

do I have to do? And this is why it's not

32:12

an affirmation. You're not saying it over and over and over and

32:15

over again. It's just, okay, I want

32:17

this to be true today. What do I have to do?

32:20

And sometimes it's taking a breath. Sometimes

32:22

it's not scheduling something extra. What

32:25

I found with my daily statements of purpose

32:27

is that when I'm using them, I

32:30

actively change my day. So when

32:32

I came back from my

32:34

mini vacation to a decimated garden

32:37

and heatwave, you know,

32:39

destroyed irrigation controller and all the

32:41

things that happened, I was like, okay,

32:43

I feel overwhelmed. My weakest link

32:45

right now is feeling like I'm a

32:47

failure. I teach this. This

32:49

is my livelihood. I help clients with this and

32:52

I've come back to a garden

32:54

that's been decimated and a part of me feels like

32:56

I should have known better. I

32:58

should have an answer for everything. So I

33:00

was like, okay, so what's the weak link? The weak link

33:03

right now is getting down on myself. Okay,

33:06

cool. So I

33:10

celebrate what I've been able to succeed

33:12

at. This was

33:14

sort of the formative first iteration and kind

33:16

of wordy and kind of cumbersome. And

33:19

then it transformed into I celebrate and

33:22

then it got transformed into I love my

33:24

life. And

33:26

so what I've been doing now over the last couple of days is

33:28

I've been waking up and like, okay, I love my life. What's

33:31

going on right now in my head? And all those

33:33

voices come up the moment I wake up like, ooh,

33:35

look what you didn't do. Look like,

33:38

well, if I love my life, what do I have to do?

33:40

Well, I have to acknowledge those voices because if I don't, they

33:42

get louder. So I acknowledge those voices. Okay. What

33:44

else do I have to do? I'm really sore right now. I

33:46

don't want to be sore. Okay. I

33:49

want to love my life today. What else do I need to do?

33:51

Well, I've got a lot of clients I need to make

33:54

sure that I've gotten back to because I took some

33:56

time off. Okay. Well,

33:58

I'll go do that. So all throughout the day, this guides me. Yes,

34:00

this becomes my my northern my

34:02

north star At the

34:05

end of the day I check in I'm like great did

34:07

I love my life more today? And was it of value

34:09

so it's one thing to have an experiment But then we have

34:11

to come back and we actually have to test it out like

34:14

we have to check in did it work And

34:16

sure enough. I'm like yeah, I did a really good

34:18

job today. I got out. I did everything I could

34:20

in the garden I was

34:22

feeling kind of run down a little tired I

34:25

wasn't ready for a nap so I gave myself

34:27

some time to play some video games Which is

34:29

something that resets my brain really nicely and so

34:31

spent about 30 minutes doing that Came

34:33

back out picked a bunch of st. John's award picked

34:36

a bunch of mint put those in the dry in

34:39

my outside drying rack Checked

34:41

in with the husband You know, do

34:44

you need anything? How can I how can I

34:46

help you out? What do you need today? You

34:48

know the whole day was guided by this idea of

34:50

how do I love my life a little bit more?

34:52

And now as I'm moving out of that and moving

34:55

out of that biggest weak link my biggest weak link

34:57

now is I'm very behind

34:59

with a number of folks because not

35:01

only Have I

35:03

had this heat wave and and this this

35:05

locust infestation? But now I have a couple

35:07

of wildfires that are very close. I know

35:09

I wondered about that So

35:13

it's like okay, I need to put some of these people later

35:15

in my schedule I was going to get back to them I

35:18

was going to develop a program for them or take them on

35:20

as clients It's like okay, I need to put them in the

35:22

end of August and basically I'm making

35:24

space So that way I can

35:27

come back to the clients I already have come back to

35:29

the people who I've already agreed to work with and say

35:31

great Where are we at?

35:33

What do we need to do? How can I move

35:35

this forward and then how can I still have space

35:37

for myself and all of life

35:39

that's happening and I'll finish this this

35:42

little section with years ago, I brought

35:44

in a aquaponics educator

35:48

the teacher course and She said

35:50

something remarkable that I've kept in my mind and

35:52

have made an active value in my life Which

35:54

is we always run the system at 80% because

35:56

it's a closed system and life will

35:59

always be there and we'll always have

36:01

these ebbs and flows or as one of

36:03

my favorite quotes from Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic

36:05

Park, life will find a way. And

36:09

so that has been an active value

36:11

in my life. And originally it was I'm

36:14

at 90% capacity and then 80 and then 70

36:17

and now it's 60. Now

36:19

I aim to, if I have 100 working

36:21

hours a week, I aim to have 60 of

36:23

them booked. If I have

36:25

100 hours of leisure, I aim to

36:28

have 60 of them booked. I

36:30

aim to be at 60% capacity and

36:32

then to allow the rest of that

36:34

time for the swing, the ebbs, the

36:36

flows, the locust, so to speak. And

36:39

what happened is I wasn't paying attention to that value

36:42

over the summer and I was taking on more and

36:44

more and more because I was really enjoying it

36:46

and I was keeping up with everything and everything

36:48

was good, but I'd forgotten that there's always going

36:50

to be ebbs and flows because we live in

36:52

a dynamic ecological system. And

36:54

so this was a wonderful reminder. This is why

36:56

this was good. This

36:58

is a wonderful reminder that, okay, 60% is 60%. And

37:02

if you take on new projects and new

37:04

book projects and this projects and that projects,

37:07

it doesn't matter. You still have to be at 60%. You

37:10

still need rest time. You still need downtime. You still need

37:12

time with family. You still need time to play with the

37:14

dog. You still need time to harvest medicine

37:17

and wild craft and forge Saskatoon's

37:19

and especially now see as the

37:21

gardens basically closed. So

37:29

yeah, that's really important to keep in mind

37:31

when you're working with and developing

37:34

capacity with values. And

37:36

you know, I love that. And that really,

37:38

I think that's the kindness and compassion when

37:40

we can give that to ourselves. That's so

37:43

important. And that also really

37:45

illustrates well, something that I got

37:47

from listening to some

37:49

of your webinars and also reading about

37:51

your work was that you were stating

37:54

that modern culture really emphasizes goals

37:56

over quality of life and

37:59

that you just. and you stress quality of life

38:01

over goals, which I really just love that idea

38:03

because I feel like it's so often like you're

38:05

saying, it's like, yes, I wanna do this, this,

38:07

this and this. And then at the end of

38:09

the day, it's like, I am exhausted and my

38:12

quality of life isn't great, but I'm accomplishing these

38:14

goals. So I really love the

38:16

idea of using your values as a

38:18

template and then following

38:20

those values and then your quality of life,

38:23

I could see how it would really improve.

38:26

Hmm. Yeah,

38:28

that was a major revelation

38:30

years ago where I

38:32

had so many clients that were working on land and

38:36

they were getting excited

38:38

by the next thing they saw online. They

38:41

were having a severe case and acute case

38:43

of shiny thing-o-nitis, where

38:46

they were like, oh, hugo culture, or

38:49

oh, this plow or oh, this chicken

38:51

set up. And instead

38:53

of going, well, what do we want our values to

38:56

be around this landscape? And then verifying

38:59

if the thing

39:01

would bring about this state of being,

39:04

they were just running on the, oh, that looks good, that looks

39:06

good, that looks good. And that's the

39:09

opposite of the always putting out fires. You

39:11

know, it's the same reactive behavior, but it's,

39:13

you know, in the quote unquote positive or

39:15

novel. And the byproduct of that, the

39:18

result of that is that you have a lot of unfinished

39:20

projects. You have things that never get finished, never get done

39:22

and you're always onto the new thing. So you're digging a

39:25

hundred foot hole, but you're digging a hundred holes

39:27

a foot deep instead of digging one hole, a

39:29

hundred feet deep. Oh

39:32

my God, my life is filled with holes. I

39:34

am a human gopher, it's

39:37

horror. I'm

39:41

gaining insight right now, I've gotta fill them in.

39:45

I've gotta draft that part of myself and

39:47

then be nice to it. Yeah,

39:50

and that's part of it, it's just

39:52

saying, yeah, there was a part of

39:54

me for a long time that thought,

39:56

okay, you know, quantity over quality is

39:58

better and that's our society. You know,

40:01

be involved in the many, don't be involved in the

40:03

few. And

40:05

so, yeah, I love that you immediately went

40:08

to compassion and that's so important to have

40:10

compassion for the parts of you that were

40:13

that way and were in that situation or

40:15

even in the moment, like acknowledging, oh, that's,

40:17

that's what that part was doing. And

40:20

to listen to also the other parts that are

40:22

going, ah, jabbing you idiot. I can't believe you did

40:25

that and go, oh, interesting. Why do you? Why does

40:27

this part of me feel this way? Even compassionate to

40:29

that part. So that way, all

40:32

parts get this sense. This is, this is one of the

40:34

tools I use. I use this tool of voice dialogue

40:36

created by two psychotherapist, Helen

40:38

Sidger-Stone. And it's such

40:40

an incredible tool because as a

40:42

facilitator, it's my job to

40:45

hold the space and to model that

40:47

I'm holding all of your parts equally

40:49

well. The part that hates

40:51

what you're doing, the part that loves what you're doing, the

40:53

part that wants to be bigger

40:56

than Jeff Bezos, the one that wants

40:58

to be the smallest little hole so

41:00

that way nobody ever can see it.

41:04

To hold all of them equally well so that way

41:06

you can hold them equally well. And then when you

41:08

come back to this place of center can go, how

41:10

interesting. I have all these parts that are

41:12

doing these things. And

41:15

right when I'm in this state of mind, it's

41:17

this part that's really talking or when I'm feeling

41:19

this way, it's really this part. Oh,

41:22

I can actually hold myself in

41:24

the center space here. And

41:27

I can go, I can hold

41:29

this cacophony, this British parliament, what's

41:31

called British parliament, Congress with a

41:33

two drink minimum, this raucous cacophony.

41:37

And go, oh yeah, I acknowledge

41:39

the honor rule member from You're

41:41

an Idiotopia. And I want to

41:43

acknowledge the other member of you're

41:45

acting too big, you're going to

41:47

get squashed. And

41:49

in the center, I can go, that's really interesting.

41:51

All these parts feel this way. And yet I'm

41:53

going to hold center and choose

41:56

and chart a path that

41:58

none of these parts could see. because they're so

42:00

myopic. They only see what they see.

42:03

They can't see anything else. And it's

42:05

kind of like a little kid. Again, it goes back to this

42:08

little kid. It's like, can we do

42:10

that tomorrow? No, but it'll take

42:12

so long. Life never, you know, they're

42:14

just, they have issues with concept of

42:16

time. They have issues with right now.

42:19

Dr. Gabbard Maté, one of my mentors, has

42:21

this wonderful approach and he says,

42:23

we're all born narcissists. Me, me,

42:26

me, I, I, I, now, now, now.

42:29

And my experience of anthropology

42:32

and history teaches me

42:34

that most societies had

42:36

a rite of passage. It

42:38

was usually a fatalistic rite of passage or it

42:40

was a psychedelic rite of passage that

42:43

brought somebody to the cusp of

42:45

death where they had to take full responsibility

42:47

for themselves. They had to say, I am

42:50

my own person. And one

42:52

of the reasons why these rites were fatalistic for

42:54

these tribes was they would rather a dead tribe

42:56

member than an uninitiated tribe member than a child,

42:59

because that child, they couldn't

43:01

afford to have another child who had reached maturity

43:03

because they needed a worthwhile adult

43:06

in the tribe to survive. Now,

43:09

think about our lives. We don't

43:11

do that. We encourage people to

43:13

be youth longer in Canada. And

43:15

this may or may not be the case anymore, but

43:17

years ago, as I was applying for a program, youth

43:20

was considered to 35 years of age. Wow.

43:24

You go back 100 years ago, 14, 15 and 16 year olds were

43:28

leaving home and charting their course in the

43:30

world. So now we

43:32

have all of this to contend with as well, plus

43:34

the fact that we really are,

43:36

we're a bunch of children and narcissists walking

43:38

around in adults' bodies. And

43:41

it's not my responsibility to correct you or

43:43

anybody else unless somebody says, hey, I want

43:45

some help, but it is

43:47

my responsibility to take full responsibility for

43:49

myself, for all of myself, for all

43:52

the parts and the feelings and the

43:54

behaviors. And then to say, how

43:57

can I evolve from that

43:59

knowledge? How can I better myself? How

44:01

can I be less reactive? How can I

44:03

be of more value to my community? How

44:06

can I know and share my gifts with

44:08

a greater zeal and greater connectivity and not

44:10

burn out every three months because I'm doing,

44:12

I think it was like 47 projects

44:15

when I realized how much I was working? Yes,

44:19

it's true. And I think many of us

44:21

don't even know that we have a center

44:23

point that we can work from because

44:26

I so identified in my 20s

44:28

with that child part and

44:30

the kind of critic part and those parts. And I

44:33

feel like that's a breakthrough for many people when it's

44:35

like, wait a minute, this is just a part of

44:37

me. There's another part of

44:39

me that I can gain

44:42

wisdom from and that can be compassionate toward

44:44

these other parts. This conversation

44:46

is really interesting and I have like a million

44:48

other questions that we're getting. We're

44:51

getting close to the end of our

44:53

time together and it's just been really

44:55

fascinating. One question I have, Jabin, is

44:58

that, okay, as you said,

45:00

your vegetables, many of them

45:02

are toast. We

45:04

are in climate chaos,

45:07

fires, record temperatures, flooding,

45:09

drought. As we face all

45:11

of these challenges and longstanding issues, as

45:14

well as we know, the list goes

45:16

on, social justice, poverty, all

45:18

of these challenges that we face, each

45:21

one is very serious. Is it selfish?

45:23

Do you believe it's a selfish endeavor

45:26

to design your life and shouldn't we

45:28

be focused on these bigger issues that

45:30

we face? Great

45:33

question. A number

45:35

of the ecological designers and

45:37

landscape designers that I work with come to

45:39

me because they're burnt out. They

45:42

come because they've given too much to their

45:44

business, they've lost track of their family, they've

45:46

lost track of themselves and

45:49

they've completely burnt out. They

45:51

think if they just have a better system, they'll

45:54

be okay. The problem is they

45:56

haven't put their health as a priority. They

45:58

haven't put themselves as a priority. And

46:01

what's so interesting about that is that

46:03

comes from a cultural belief of

46:07

somewhere down the line they were taught they

46:09

needed to give of themselves, they need to

46:11

please everybody in the world to be of

46:13

value or some iteration of

46:15

that approach. It

46:17

looks very different in each person. The snowflake is

46:20

a little different but it's still a snowflake every

46:22

single time. And

46:24

what's interesting about that is these

46:26

folks have stopped being of value

46:29

because they've made it about what

46:31

they should give. And

46:33

the neat thing about altruism is altruism is very

46:36

selfish. People are altruistic because of the feeling it

46:38

gives them. They're altruistic because of how they want

46:40

to be perceived in the world or what they

46:42

want to do. All our

46:45

behaviors are internally motivated. And

46:47

so what I found is that

46:49

when I engage in life

46:52

design or life cultivation and others do as

46:54

well, they become very clear on

46:56

what they can do. They become very clear

46:58

on what's over their boundaries in terms of

47:00

time and experience. They become very

47:02

clear on what their gifts and their skills

47:04

are. So instead of consistently trying to be

47:06

a turtle and yet they have wings, they

47:09

stop trying to do that. And they're like, oh wait

47:11

a second, this is actually how I can give my

47:13

gifts meaningfully to others. And

47:16

they do it so unapologetically. So

47:18

they are an engineer teaching

47:21

permaculture and they say, no,

47:23

I'm unapologetically an engineer. They

47:25

are somebody who feels

47:27

deeply and they're super empathetic and

47:29

they go, you know, I really

47:31

should get out of programming because

47:33

it's just killing my soul. And

47:36

in that we go, great, once we know

47:38

our skills and our process, how can we

47:40

give that meaningfully to the problems that we

47:42

actively want to help solve? And this means

47:45

that I get to take a step back from trying to

47:47

change anybody's mind because I got to tell you, it's

47:50

super frustrating and

47:52

it's really sisyphusian.

47:56

Exactly. So much of what

47:58

I do is not about changing people's

48:00

mind is not about telling people that they

48:02

should be taking the

48:05

ecological destruction that's happening on our planet seriously

48:08

or they should be taking action. I've

48:11

been on the receiving end of a, I call it

48:13

my shoulder shitty committee that should all over me. And

48:17

I just don't believe that that has

48:19

much value. Every once in a while

48:21

there's outrage to be sure and

48:24

that's important to allow to be expressed

48:26

and created. But

48:29

at the same time, we

48:31

need people who have a

48:33

maturity about them and take responsibility. And what

48:35

I find is that when people

48:38

engage in life design and cultivation, they

48:40

become more responsible individuals and they end up doing

48:42

more because all of a

48:44

sudden they're thinking, well, what are my tools

48:46

and how can they work at

48:50

the highest level of my

48:53

person instead of, oh, I have

48:55

to go and do the thing that I was told

48:57

to do. So

48:59

I find that when people connect with their

49:02

essence, I find when they connect with what's

49:04

up for them, what's bothering them, they

49:06

become the best possible

49:09

expression of what they're currently wanting

49:12

to be and the values they're wanting to

49:14

hold. And then they become very active in

49:17

whatever way they can. And

49:19

then the other thing that I think is really

49:21

important, and this is a tool of sovereignty

49:23

that I've curated out of Byron Katie's work, is

49:26

really to understand what is my business, your

49:28

business and nature and God's business. So

49:31

there are some things that I can influence.

49:33

I have this sphere of influence, which is

49:35

what it's called when you're into the tech

49:37

sphere. But it really is, this is

49:39

my business. This is what I can control. And I like

49:42

to think about it in sort of a medieval Lord

49:44

of the Rings game of Thrones, walled city.

49:46

And this is Javan Topia. This is Javanville.

49:49

This is what I have control over. My

49:51

reactions are in there. My health

49:53

is in there largely. But

49:56

every once in a while, when I step out

49:58

the gates and I start to dictate, what

50:00

should be happening in your business, I

50:03

suffer. But only a hundred percent of the

50:06

time, so it's not that much. And that

50:08

becomes, again, an indicator of when I'm not designing

50:11

my life is when I'm trying to tell you

50:13

what to do. I've stepped out of my own

50:15

garden and said, well maybe you should think about

50:17

this and think about that. There's

50:19

a growing awareness right now that personal

50:23

effects and personal actions we have to

50:25

be taking at the same time

50:27

cannot become so delusioned that you

50:30

think that it is everything that

50:32

you do and if you don't

50:34

recycle that one thing, the world's going to end.

50:36

And this is where I was at. Years ago,

50:39

I thought that was it. I had to hold

50:41

myself to such a high standard that I was

50:43

living at an eco village and I bought flowers

50:45

for my partner at the time. I was like,

50:47

oh my god, they're going to judge me. I

50:49

have to hide things. Yeah,

50:55

basically when we suffer, it's usually when

50:57

we step out of our business and

50:59

we start to control others,

51:02

we start to say other

51:05

people's businesses

51:07

are a business. And

51:10

basically what we're doing is we're arguing

51:12

with reality. The reality is that their

51:14

business is not our business. It

51:16

never is, never will be. The

51:18

nature and gods aspect there, the locusts

51:20

that decided to take over my garden,

51:22

nature and gods business, nothing

51:24

to do with me. I didn't keep it

51:26

as a dry spring. I didn't make

51:29

sure that there wasn't enough water to drown

51:31

out the larvae of the grasshoppers. I

51:36

wasn't part of the 250 years

51:38

of warming

51:42

our planet up until the

51:44

last 40. So I've

51:47

got a part in that for sure but it's

51:49

not completely me. And this is

51:51

where when we don't allow people

51:55

to grow up, when we don't allow people

51:57

to take responsibility for themselves, people

52:01

tend to take responsibility for others

52:03

and to be frustrated on

52:05

other people's behalf and offended on other people's

52:07

behalf. It has a lot of secondary

52:10

and tertiary issues but

52:13

largely what it does is it means that you never get to

52:15

be in control of your life. You're

52:17

always outsourcing your

52:20

sense of satisfaction. You're always outsourcing

52:22

your sense of

52:25

validation and this is where

52:28

when we are constantly stepping outside of our business and

52:30

other people's business we're outsourcing our life. We're saying no

52:32

you tell me when I'm good. No you tell me

52:34

when I've done a good job. No you

52:37

give me validation and celebrate me. Instead

52:39

of celebrating ourselves one of the most

52:41

simplest things I do with clients is

52:43

get them to start celebrating their

52:46

wins because

52:49

what we celebrate persists. So

52:51

recently I've been working with this gentleman

52:54

for quite some time in his

52:56

late 50s and he

52:58

started to celebrate things that have gone well.

53:00

You know what there's more things that go

53:02

well because he celebrates it and all

53:05

the parts of him go oh okay

53:07

yeah so that's what that looks like

53:09

and that's what that feels like. When

53:12

we do this work when we have

53:14

these opportunities to

53:17

take full responsibility and to be

53:19

totally inside of our business we

53:22

completely and fundamentally change the game

53:24

of life. And

53:29

one thing too that I wonder

53:31

about is is life design

53:33

a privilege? Say that someone is just responding

53:35

to life and working at a job that

53:37

they you know they have to work constantly

53:40

to support their family. Is that

53:42

something that is it a just

53:44

as something that people with money

53:46

and with resources and time can

53:49

do? You

53:51

know my favorite thing about this work is

53:53

that I have given this work

53:55

to well now because it's

53:57

on the internet to anybody who's interested. And

54:01

in the past 10 years, I've

54:04

talked to people about this in

54:06

person in Kenya, Uganda, Cuba, places

54:08

where I work, where arguably there

54:11

is not

54:13

a huge amount of material

54:16

to be accessed. There's not a lot

54:20

of social mobility. People

54:23

who are born to a place usually stay in that

54:25

place for the rest of their lives. And

54:29

what I find is that whenever

54:31

I talk about this, I say, listen,

54:33

this may not be for you. This

54:35

may not be something that you feel

54:37

you're comfortable exploring. I'm more than

54:40

happy to talk about it, but if you don't want me to, that's

54:42

fine. It's always a yes. And

54:44

my favourite stories are the ones, especially

54:46

in Cuba, where it's

54:49

a pretty tough situation, right?

54:51

If you get a government job, you get paid

54:53

20 CUC. Everyone has

54:55

to be working in the black market in some way, shape

54:57

or form. So you actively always have to be doing it.

55:00

It's part of the culture. It's

55:02

very hard to get your basic needs. It's

55:05

very hard to get what you think is

55:07

the standard of living from everybody met. You

55:09

always get your basic needs met through the

55:11

government store, if they have what

55:13

you want, if they have the supplies,

55:15

pardon me. And

55:18

both in Cuba, and now I'm thinking of this young man in

55:20

Uganda, where like, you're right,

55:23

life is negotiable. If I consistently think it's

55:25

one way, if I consistently think this is

55:27

all there is to it, that's all I'll

55:29

see. Yes, there may be

55:31

some issues

55:33

and there may be some injustice and there may be

55:35

some frustrations to be sure, but if

55:37

that's all I focus on, that's all I'll see. There's

55:40

this thing in skydiving I learned when I

55:42

was practicing and really

55:44

curious about learning it called object

55:47

fixation. Same thing in motorcycling, actually.

55:50

And the number one killer of skydivers

55:52

is skydivers because as they're being radioed

55:54

down and being told don't aim at

55:56

the barn, they hear barn and they

55:58

focus on the barn. Oh wow. And

56:02

object fixation kills you. Object

56:05

fixation kills dreams. Object fixation

56:08

kills inspiration and motivation. The

56:11

level that we can design or

56:14

cultivate will have a level of advantage

56:16

wherever you're born and whatever situation you're born into.

56:18

There may be some advantages there to be sure.

56:21

But can anybody look at life and go, yeah,

56:23

there are aspects of this that I can control

56:26

from my perspective? For sure. Can

56:28

I negotiate as much as I can to

56:30

my extent? For sure. There's lots

56:32

of things I can't negotiate with. We're all under some

56:35

level of control. We're all born

56:37

into some level of human

56:39

farming. That's been happening since

56:41

the advent of agriculture and is happening

56:43

at even an accelerated rate to

56:45

date. My experience is

56:47

that the principles,

56:50

the practices, the concepts, they

56:52

apply to anybody. How far

56:55

you can go applies to how

56:57

much you apply it and how much

56:59

you think you can move and also

57:01

how much you believe you can

57:03

change. That doesn't mean

57:05

that in my native

57:07

Canada, there aren't some old growth forests

57:09

that are actively being destroyed by interests

57:12

after the First Nations who own that

57:14

land said no. That doesn't

57:16

mean that doesn't happen. It doesn't mean that the residential

57:18

schools in my native Canada

57:21

that have been shown to be

57:23

have mass graves of young

57:26

indigenous people who were taken from their homes.

57:28

That doesn't mean that doesn't exist. It doesn't

57:30

mean that the government may or

57:32

may not take responsibility for that or the

57:34

Catholic Church, more importantly, take responsibility for that.

57:37

That doesn't mean that may or may not happen. It

57:39

just means that I get to be in further

57:42

sovereign control of myself

57:45

as I come to those conversations and as

57:47

I decide how do I want

57:49

to contribute to that story or do I? Is

57:52

it by supporting people at Ferry Creek blockade?

57:54

Is it by supporting the First Nations I

57:57

know around their experience of residential schools? Is

57:59

it about... providing a platform or giving

58:01

them access to the people I know to

58:03

tell their story? Is it about bringing them

58:05

on the podcasts I have? What

58:08

does that look like and what can I actively

58:10

do as opposed to throwing my arms up in

58:12

the air and saying, well, I can't do anything,

58:14

which is again, super narcissistic.

58:16

It's like, how dare

58:18

we not say that we have agency and

58:20

power? Again, that's an outsourcing of control. It's

58:22

like, well, I can't do anything, so I

58:25

won't bother. Yeah, that's like being a kid.

58:27

That's like being a little kid and taking

58:29

their responsibility. I

58:32

just want to keep talking to you, but there's

58:36

so much. I mean, I'm

58:38

wondering if there's anything that we did

58:41

not discuss that you think is very

58:43

pertinent to this discussion. Yeah,

58:45

there's probably two things. And

58:48

the first one is that we

58:51

start with life design, and then

58:53

we move into life cultivation. So it's

58:55

like any good garden. You start with a design and

58:57

then life responds and goes, yeah, you read some

59:00

of the book, right? And some of the book

59:02

you got wrong. Sep

59:04

Holtzer, a mentor of mine has this wonderful saying, the

59:06

book of nature is always open to being read and

59:08

always open to being reread when you go and make

59:10

a mistake. And so it's

59:13

really important that people understand that portions of this

59:15

art design like, okay, I'm going to think about

59:17

this and be a little bit of strategic and

59:19

then as life comes at you, now it's cultivation.

59:21

Now it's like, oh, interesting. That

59:24

shoot produced fruit, but that shoot withered and died.

59:26

But that shoots in the sun and it's getting

59:29

all of the wind and it looks like there's

59:31

a vector for disease there. Okay, well, that kind

59:33

of makes sense. So maybe I don't grow that

59:35

there. Maybe I grow that over there. So

59:39

that cultivation aspect, that observation

59:41

aspect, that acknowledgement aspect, the

59:45

humbleness aspect, the, well, I want this tree

59:47

to do this thing I wanted to do,

59:49

but it's not doing it. Well, there's a

59:51

couple other couple other parties that are playing

59:53

here. And just because the human brain

59:55

thinks it's the best and the brightest and all the rest

59:57

of it doesn't mean it is. And

1:00:00

that idea of humility, that idea

1:00:02

of cultivation is really important. So

1:00:06

as I've come to this realization over the last year,

1:00:08

a lot of my

1:00:10

ad copy and a lot of my written

1:00:12

word is changing now to include

1:00:15

life design and cultivation because that's really

1:00:17

it. I see these

1:00:19

two spheres that I live in, the life design,

1:00:21

the land design and the cultivation of both to

1:00:24

be analogous. They're one and the same. To

1:00:26

live well in this world is to live

1:00:28

well in relationship to the land that is

1:00:30

our life support system. And

1:00:32

to live well internally is to be

1:00:35

able to live well externally. For

1:00:37

the folks that are living moment

1:00:39

to moment, day to day, dollar

1:00:42

to dollar and steal, lie, cheat

1:00:45

in whatever way they can to feed their families. They're

1:00:49

not even eligible to enter into this

1:00:51

conversation that we have such the advantage

1:00:53

to. So part

1:00:55

of me going back to that question

1:00:57

you asked previously is it's

1:01:00

a responsibility to

1:01:03

take on as much sovereignty

1:01:05

as possible to actively be

1:01:08

champions in our own life so that we

1:01:10

can be of value to others. It's so

1:01:13

important to do so because there are some

1:01:15

people in the way that their countries have

1:01:17

been developed or their countries have been colonized

1:01:19

or have been exploited that don't have this

1:01:22

option. They don't

1:01:24

have the ability to engage in

1:01:26

even this podcast because they don't have the resources,

1:01:28

they don't have the access to the internet. Yeah,

1:01:30

by 20, what is it, 35, we're supposed to

1:01:32

have 50% of the world on the internet. But

1:01:36

there's always going to be a bottom tier

1:01:38

of humanity that for the

1:01:40

reasons that they're there are

1:01:43

not out of a place of

1:01:46

poverty, severe poverty that can be

1:01:48

inaccessibility. So part of the

1:01:50

reason I do what I do is because I can

1:01:53

have a bigger effect, I can have a

1:01:55

bigger experience, I can offer my design services

1:01:57

to First Nations at a fraction of the

1:01:59

rate. rate that I do

1:02:01

to everybody else. I can

1:02:03

offer initial sessions to people

1:02:05

for free with voice dialogue

1:02:08

because I've got my basics

1:02:10

taken care of. Do I have yachts? Do I have

1:02:12

second homes? No. Do I need them? No. I don't

1:02:15

need those things. Those things are not a value to me. Those

1:02:17

things are a whole

1:02:20

number of reasons and

1:02:22

status pieces that just don't add to my

1:02:24

quality of life. And I've tested them. This

1:02:27

is a great thing about values-based decision making.

1:02:29

I'm like, should I get a second home?

1:02:31

And every time it's like, are you out

1:02:33

of your mind? This is what I love

1:02:36

about values-based decision making is it's a sober

1:02:38

second thought. It's almost like

1:02:40

when we're in emotional reactivity, we're drunk and

1:02:43

we're trying to make decisions. And it's like, don't pick up

1:02:45

your phone and text your ex. Don't do it. But

1:02:49

when you have this sober second thought that's

1:02:51

just asking you questions like, does this decision

1:02:53

get to the root cause of your problem?

1:02:57

So I'm working with a client right now who's got 75

1:02:59

acres and they're trying to... We're

1:03:01

practicing decisions into why the decisions is,

1:03:04

should we run another hydrant out to

1:03:06

the goat pen versus

1:03:08

leaving it where it isn't just running

1:03:10

a hose. Simple decision, not very costly,

1:03:12

good decision to test when you're learning.

1:03:14

It's training wheel decision, right? So

1:03:17

you look at that and you go, okay, well, if we

1:03:19

run a hose, a hose is 60 bucks. So

1:03:23

that's a $60 conversation. If we run a

1:03:25

hydrant, it's probably 250. What's

1:03:27

the value of having a hydrant closer to the

1:03:29

goat pen? So we go through all of the

1:03:31

value. What is it going

1:03:33

to improve the social economic or ecological

1:03:36

aspect there? Well, if we want more

1:03:38

animals, yeah, having a dedicated hydrant would

1:03:40

be really important. So

1:03:43

we get into all the little pieces

1:03:45

and it's so amazing because there's so many

1:03:47

facets to these decisions. And

1:03:49

the other thing that's really important to note and that

1:03:51

people can take away is to make sure that every

1:03:53

decision that's tested is

1:03:55

assumed to be wrong or assumed to be not

1:03:57

a good fit. And this is great because this

1:04:00

immediately inoculates us against our

1:04:06

decision. This is a good one. I

1:04:08

was working with a colleague of

1:04:10

mine. He's a land designer. And

1:04:12

the decision he was testing was, should

1:04:15

I get a drone for

1:04:18

aerial photography? And

1:04:20

the root cause, and this is true for most

1:04:22

of us, the root cause he put was, I

1:04:24

don't have a drone. And

1:04:28

I was like, mate, we got to have a conversation here. Why do you

1:04:30

want the drone? I want

1:04:32

a drone because I want to take aerial

1:04:35

photography. Great. You live in a province that

1:04:37

has perfect aerial photography and has lighter data

1:04:39

that would take you four times the cost

1:04:41

to produce. Why do you

1:04:43

want a drone? I want a drone because I

1:04:46

want a drone. Yes, fair enough. So

1:04:49

what problem does the drone solve? I

1:04:51

want not a need. It

1:04:53

solves I want a drone because it's cool. And

1:04:56

I want it. I want

1:04:58

a toy that I can fly. Cool. That's

1:05:00

fine. But let's be honest that it actually

1:05:02

doesn't solve a work problem. It

1:05:04

solves a want which

1:05:07

notice I didn't even say problem because wants

1:05:09

are just wants. So

1:05:12

at the end of it, it was like,

1:05:14

okay, I don't need a drone, but I

1:05:17

should probably increase the photographic capacity of my

1:05:19

phone. And so I may want to upgrade

1:05:21

or switch ecosystems or providers or whatever. And

1:05:26

he went out and he ended up contracting a couple of

1:05:28

drone flights. That was like a couple hundred bucks. And now

1:05:30

he doesn't have a drone that depreciates in its value. Now

1:05:32

he doesn't have a drone he has to keep up. And

1:05:34

in Canada, now he doesn't have to have a drone that

1:05:37

he has to have a pilot's license for which is about

1:05:39

1500 to 2500 dollars

1:05:41

to get. So this

1:05:43

is why values based decision making is so

1:05:45

important on the land base or a life

1:05:47

base because it does it inoculates you against

1:05:50

decisions that would take

1:05:52

you away from your quality of life, take you away from

1:05:54

your values. Yeah,

1:05:57

and that was one question that I really wanted to bring

1:05:59

up and I'm I'm so glad you brought this

1:06:01

up was really the importance of making good decisions

1:06:04

and that we can learn to do

1:06:06

this through a process because that really

1:06:08

stresses me out. Even little

1:06:10

tiny decisions. So this was really, I'm glad

1:06:12

you brought it up. That

1:06:14

was the point when I read that when you said

1:06:16

making decisions can be a positive thing. I was like,

1:06:19

oh my God, Jabin, are you kidding me? Well,

1:06:24

decisions are destiny. They make what we do. So

1:06:26

if I get up in the morning and decide

1:06:28

to stretch my body, because I know I'm going

1:06:30

to be in the office for four hours. I

1:06:32

know I've got like an hour to two hour

1:06:35

with you. I know I've got a call with

1:06:37

my insurance adjuster. I know I've got a bunch

1:06:39

of Oregon State University permacostal design students I have

1:06:41

to mark. I know I've got two

1:06:43

or three designs I have to work on. If

1:06:46

I don't stretch in the morning, what's my body going

1:06:48

to be at night? So that

1:06:50

decision of I want to love

1:06:52

my life is like, yeah, I want to love my

1:06:54

life. And so I'm

1:06:57

going to have painful

1:06:59

ers and moans that get my

1:07:01

body as I contort myself

1:07:03

in what should be pretty

1:07:06

standard ranges of motion. And

1:07:08

so by the end of the day, I look back and

1:07:10

I once put

1:07:12

it this way. Life design

1:07:14

could be simply explained as do

1:07:17

less of what you

1:07:19

didn't like yesterday and what was harmful yesterday

1:07:22

and do more of what was beneficial today.

1:07:24

I love that. That

1:07:26

could be the simplest way of doing it. It's just

1:07:29

like, let's do a scan of yesterday. And this is

1:07:31

what I do when I do these yearly reviews. It's

1:07:34

like, let's do a scan of the last 12 months. What

1:07:37

was amazing? What was stupendous? What

1:07:39

was incredible? And when I did this in

1:07:41

2020, December 2020, I

1:07:44

realized that doing these online courses with

1:07:47

some incredible individuals was so much

1:07:49

fun that I created an entire

1:07:52

educational learning platform called Regenerative Living,

1:07:55

skills to help you live on the planet as if you

1:07:57

intend to stay. No, no ideology,

1:07:59

no ideology. dogma, just here's a skill

1:08:01

about living soils, here's a skill about food

1:08:03

preservation and growing and understanding how much food

1:08:05

it takes for your family to survive

1:08:08

in here. Here's a course

1:08:10

about hedgerows from the foremost hedgerow designer

1:08:12

in the West Coast. Here's low impact

1:08:14

development, here's biochar, here's just a bunch

1:08:17

of little tiny skills that you can

1:08:19

pick up and work with because as

1:08:22

I look back on 2020, it was one of

1:08:24

my favorite things is working with these amazing

1:08:26

instructors and offering education. So I

1:08:28

just did more of it in 2021 and

1:08:31

that's the rinse and repeat process. If

1:08:35

somebody is listening to this and was like, wow,

1:08:37

I was invigorated by this conversation, it's like great,

1:08:40

dive into more of this conversation with me

1:08:42

or with others. There's lots of great speakers

1:08:44

and thinkers that are talking about life cultivation

1:08:46

and design. When we double down on

1:08:48

what's good for us, we

1:08:50

get three or four times the effort that

1:08:53

comes out of it, produces eight,

1:08:55

10 times. It's an

1:08:58

exponential equation. It's not linear because

1:09:00

when we go back to the essence, we go

1:09:02

back into Wellsprung and we say, okay, what's my

1:09:04

message? Who am I? What's my essence?

1:09:07

Can I be compassionate to it? Can I learn

1:09:09

compassion? Can I make decisions based upon my values?

1:09:11

Can I be really invested in myself so I

1:09:14

can be invested in others? It's

1:09:16

like coming out of the stratosphere with

1:09:19

your rocket boosters on. It's just incredible

1:09:21

how many good things happen when all

1:09:23

those things are firing at once. If

1:09:26

people want to learn with or

1:09:28

from you, they can find you

1:09:30

at allpointsdesign.ca. This

1:09:34

has just been so helpful and

1:09:36

thought-provoking. I love this discussion

1:09:39

and I really appreciate you taking the time to

1:09:41

share your knowledge today. Oh, you're so

1:09:43

welcome, Jill. I love talking about

1:09:45

it and you ask such great questions. It's

1:09:48

such a pleasure to explore this with

1:09:51

somebody else and invite and introduce new

1:09:53

people to the concepts. Again, if folks

1:09:56

are interested, indeed, allpointsdesign.ca/life will take

1:09:58

you to the website. you directly

1:10:00

to the life design work. Thank you

1:10:02

so much, Jeven. This has been wonderful. Such

1:10:06

a pleasure, Jill. Thank you for all you do in the world. You've

1:10:10

been listening to a Sustainable

1:10:12

World Radio podcast. You

1:10:15

can find us online at

1:10:17

sustainableworldradio.com and also on iTunes.

1:10:20

For more information about permaculture

1:10:22

and ecology, visit the Sustainable

1:10:25

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1:10:27

you'll find videos about permaculture,

1:10:30

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1:10:32

and much, much more. Sustainable

1:10:36

World Radio is a listener-supported program.

1:10:39

If you like what we do, please consider making

1:10:41

a donation to the show. I'm

1:10:43

your host and producer, Jill Cloutier, and thank

1:10:46

you so much for listening.