0:02

This is a global player original

0:04

podcast.

0:08

Welcome to Sweeney Talks. It's podcast series

0:10

where I get to interview people who've done

0:12

serious stuff with their lives and

0:15

then got into trouble. Big trouble.

0:17

I'm not here to lecture them about that.

0:20

I'm kind of a professor of big troubleology

0:22

myself. I've got history. With

0:24

the Church of Science, North

0:26

Korea, Donald Trump, Vladimir

0:29

Putin, Tommy Robinson, and

0:31

the rush and army. I'm

0:34

here to find out what it feels like to

0:37

be in the deep doo doo. How

0:39

you survived it? And then how the hell

0:41

do you get out of it? If you've

0:43

been in trouble, you're not alone.

0:47

So come along for the ride. You

0:49

might learn some new tricks. You might

0:51

have a laugh, but one thing is sure.

0:54

The best stories aren't told. By

0:56

the well behaved.

1:02

So once

1:02

you listen to the interview, you can hear what I

1:04

really think about. It's just in Sweeney

1:06

keep stalking. Find that exclusively

1:09

on global player.

1:14

Today's guest is James Haskell.

1:17

One of English rugby's greatest stars, but

1:19

early on, he also played for Wales and

1:21

could have played for Ireland too. Egenia

1:23

Bettsham, mate, but he's also been open

1:25

and honest about the downside, salagishness,

1:27

and some issues with mental health, and that

1:30

takes real guts. He's also gone through

1:32

spinal surgery, and his missus Chloe

1:34

Madly, calls him rugby's alpha

1:37

to Donald Trump, which I think is a big

1:39

cruel, frankly. But let's start with your

1:41

first big crunch. You're on the

1:43

ground. You're hurting, and it's

1:45

not good. How old were you? How

1:47

did you get up again? And why?

1:50

Well, firstly, thank you for having me.

1:52

My wife was being rude. I don't it's

1:54

not a no an illusion. I don't think being compared to

1:56

Donald Trump in any way, shape or form

1:59

is ever a compliment.

1:59

No. They just screwed. I just screwed. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

2:02

It isn't even, like, a small element

2:04

of, like, humor or

2:06

maybe she was joking because there's nothing

2:08

good about his plans, not good, his

2:10

lids not good, his chat not good.

2:12

His morals aren't good. His bank balance.

2:15

Yeah. Yes. I've actually met him and

2:17

I challenged him about his friendship

2:19

with Russian born gangster called Felix

2:21

Sater, who's connected with the Matthew, went

2:23

to prison for slicing a guy's

2:26

throat with a broken off stem of a

2:28

margarita glass. And then he went to prison

2:30

for a pump and dump scam on Wall Street.

2:33

And then he ends up in a Trump tower, working

2:35

for Trump. And I said, why didn't you say to this guy?

2:37

You're connected to the mafia. You're fired.

2:39

Yeah. And Trump goes, maybe you're thick,

2:41

John. And then he walks

2:43

out, maybe you're thick, John. And when I this

2:46

was when I was BBC Panorama until

2:48

months afterwards, whenever I was having a round with

2:50

one of the producers, they just go maybe you're

2:52

being thick jobs. Got it. But but but

2:54

what I love is if that was gonna be like the final

2:56

in the denouement of the conversation. That was gonna

2:58

be the bit was gonna just draw a line and are you

3:00

thick? Well, I don't understand. It's not a it's not an arc.

3:02

Yeah. An arc. But the insult that

3:04

you were rugby sensitive from is

3:07

funny. Yes. Yes. And she is the expert. Why don't

3:09

you deploy the sensor here? You know, it's

3:11

very he's not with it. He's actually a lot

3:13

of her a lot of my good lines. I've got to say

3:15

I have I take it from her, but so I I

3:17

digress it. Yes. So that way, Well, it's the first

3:19

moment when you I mean, you love rugby.

3:21

You're in it and then suddenly banging that

3:23

hurts. I'd say, actually, grandma's quite

3:25

young. I was playing for

3:27

my school by in Oscar

3:29

and I remember running into somebody

3:32

or not running someone right and crunching my

3:34

neck into them. And, you know, I end

3:36

up having kind of neck problems quite a while.

3:38

How old were you? I think I must have only

3:40

been ten. Just just one of

3:42

those weird things where I kinda got something wrong. Right?

3:44

I overreached my back, and I just, you know,

3:46

muscular wise, it was very kind of stiff

3:48

for a long period of time. And I basically I basically get

3:50

bad headaches all the And that was the first time

3:52

and I'd sort of remember this was quite a stupid

3:54

game. And actually even before that I remember and

3:56

why I think rugby should be a summer sport.

3:59

It's when you're young

3:59

and it's

4:01

pissing rain and you're tackling you

4:03

know, and you're trying to learn to tackle and you get a boot

4:05

in the face. I've now I've got like a flash, but I've got

4:07

a little PTSD, though. You've brought everything up.

4:09

It's not like crying. I remember

4:11

in Yeah. By the way, we're only, like,

4:14

five minutes in so much on pack

4:16

here. No. III remember even before, I

4:18

remember actually made in a rugby club. Poem in

4:20

rain must have been seven,

4:22

eight, tackling someone in a boot, flipping

4:24

up, hitting me in the face, cutting my mouth,

4:26

in a pouring rain, lying in a puddle, going like,

4:28

what am I doing? I hate this dad, please don't

4:30

bring me back. I don't wanna do this anymore. Which

4:32

brings me to my next obvious

4:34

question. You moment, dad, tell me about them.

4:36

So they're amazing parents in

4:38

regards to always supporting me,

4:40

never pushy. You know, you sort of watch

4:42

these American shows

4:44

with of the the beauty pageants and the

4:46

mothers who tried to look at her as sort

4:48

of seven year old daughters and, you know, forcing them

4:50

into it and the kids are crying. Then

4:52

my mom never forgave me that I never made

4:54

it as a model. Yeah. I think

4:56

well, my mom again, well, I think my mom is the

4:58

only person that I'm You know, like, for a long

5:00

time, I thought, you know, I might actually be alright looking.

5:02

And then I then realized that everything my

5:04

mom said about me was bollocks, and that's and

5:06

actually, III

5:09

couldn't I couldn't not gonna say. She

5:11

doesn't she need She did. She did. She did.

5:13

She always had a small Labrador with her in

5:15

a white stiff. I just thought it was part of her fashion statement.

5:17

But no, she the weird thing was that when I

5:19

was kind of younger, they were all the one thing

5:21

they always did was they provide the opportunities.

5:23

For me. So I, you know, going to public school and private

5:26

school. If you have a mindset like I do, which was

5:28

to try everything, and they kind of even push me to

5:30

try everything, to have Ghibli go, you know, a lot of

5:32

kids say, I don't like it. I've tried it. No. I

5:34

just don't like it. Same with food. And and

5:36

they kinda just always help me, always

5:38

pick me up when I needed to be picked up.

5:40

And it was very much kind of me against

5:42

or us against the world really. That's kind of where

5:44

it felt. I think I was I had I know

5:46

everybody's got something now and there's no such thing

5:48

as kind of a stupid child or a

5:50

difficult child, they're all got labels. I would I

5:52

had I'm bad dyslexia, and my teacher told

5:54

me I'm told my mom that I was never gonna be able to

5:56

read my property, and I was gonna struggle. And then

5:58

I had attention deficit disorder, so

6:00

I couldn't really concentrate particularly well. You know, it was always

6:02

the same thing. James is a good tab in the class, but can't

6:05

concentrate, be disrupted. So they I was

6:07

always go they're always continuously going into see the

6:09

headmaster and and going into see people, but

6:11

they always just provide with opportunities,

6:13

love me unconditionally, love my brother unconditionally. Sort

6:15

of broke themselves financially to put myself some

6:17

sell through school. What did they do? Well,

6:19

so originally my dad

6:21

set up a business making ties and

6:23

scar you know, that corporates and companies used everyone used to

6:25

wear ties and he asked me to set up a big business and

6:27

then he went into doing corporate gifts along

6:29

with that so kind of swinging talks,

6:31

you would have kind of you know, and you haven't got

6:33

very nice swinging talks mark. Yeah. Yeah. You do.

6:35

My mom could do a deal on it. And you would have

6:37

the kind of model number. Good

6:39

job. Even

6:41

though she's partially social. Yeah. She's doing well.

6:43

Right. She gets what she can now. Even

6:45

you might score, maybe She

6:51

So so number. Yeah. Sorry. So,

6:53

James, can you slip me a number or you could do

6:55

it off air? He's like, Malley, call me. I said,

6:57

John, simmer down. Really ten

6:59

minutes in. I feel

7:02

like ten hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel it

7:04

for what feels like several days. I said,

7:06

look, that any sort of corporate gift items she

7:08

would do, and they basically run those businesses. My

7:10

mom got involved in the business half Thry

7:12

was kind of born. And she now runs at herself

7:14

solely. My dad tried his hand at a few things

7:16

and be very successful kind of in his own way, but

7:18

probably very much a hand to mouth existence. And

7:20

when you go, you know, go to pop public schools,

7:22

like a pathway, like a Wellington College. The

7:24

expectation is you have loads of money and there's going to

7:26

be kind of everything's okay. But actually, it was

7:28

very much we're gonna force ourselves to ground to give

7:30

you every opportunity. And for me, in particular, it

7:33

meant that I came out of that school having done

7:35

everything. School plays. I didn't represent the

7:37

chess team, you know, one go. Favorite

7:39

opening. Do you know what? I got I just got your love

7:41

is I had a I was in my my my house

7:43

with all scholars. So all I went to Oxbridge

7:46

apart from me. Yeah. He's like the giant man

7:48

of thought. And they were the But you would be I would

7:50

imagine you were the biggest. Yes. And therefore,

7:52

when when one of the clever boys got into

7:54

trouble with a somebody nurse. Yes. You would

7:56

you would have a quiet word with a nasty

7:58

person. Yeah. But I and therefore, you they

8:00

helped you with your homework and things like Symmas.

8:02

Yes. They did like a prison. It was,

8:04

but it was, but it also was a difference between

8:06

prison and public school boarding school. I didn't

8:08

get this one. I went to a grammar school.

8:10

I well, I was gonna make some joke about the

8:12

sex, but then I thought probably but

8:15

I could probably say God's sake. Totally

8:17

the truth. No. I'd say, actually,

8:19

was quite like that, but then I would run kind of a

8:21

bit more of a a mafia style operation where

8:23

I would've got someone to then bully them, to

8:25

them for me, to help them do it. It was much more thought

8:27

out than It wasn't just I wasn't a crew say to help

8:29

people. I you know, so it's it's mister Coony,

8:31

you know. Yes. And I I had I

8:33

and I sort of you know, we'd lend I'd lend people

8:36

I mean, in my one of my books, will

8:38

ruck me. Oh, it's is there a pun there?

8:40

Yeah. Yeah. After the

8:42

first one, Wataflanca. So that was

8:44

that so it's actually Wataflanca.

8:46

Which can't talk to in sometimes best seller, actually. And then

8:48

the follow-up, we've all done that. Rockwell. Yeah.

8:50

That's what I'm talking to. And we did then

8:52

the follow-up was Ruckme. Wanted to

8:54

do a third one called scrum on my face but Oh,

8:57

god. Oh, open. I can't

8:59

say it. But they told me I couldn't do that.

9:01

My next one that's coming out in January is very different. But

9:03

the what's it called? This one's called approach without

9:05

caution. It's much more a mindset book. It's much more sensible.

9:08

Completely diversions. The first three books I wrote

9:10

were Health and Fitness, then I had the two autobiography

9:12

all kinds of stories, and then I've gone off

9:14

to do something else now. But in one of the books

9:16

I talked about, a business I set up

9:18

when I covered that a guy that used to work my

9:20

parents had a huge pornographic magazine

9:22

collection, and I never forget I walked into the

9:24

shed once. He's like, a lot

9:26

of James your life pawn. I was like, I'm

9:28

fifteen. I call self pawn. Right? And he

9:30

goes, no problem. It comes back next day with four

9:32

cardboard boxes, like four cardboard boxes.

9:34

So I remember then clearing out my briefcase all is annoying

9:36

things like workbooks and textbooks, did the low

9:38

poor mugs into school, obviously, and started a

9:40

business, renting them. So, you know, people buy it for

9:42

five pounds. Rentable. Oh, I don't wanna

9:44

think about it. Well, well, yeah, but the get gets better

9:46

because obviously I would I had a henchman, one

9:48

of my best mates of Gekko Porter and Jones. And what

9:50

we would do is we would rent them outright buy five you

9:52

know, buy we bought three for ten pounds, buy

9:54

one for five or or rent it out for three

9:56

quick. And what happens is for the younger

9:59

boys, whatever or the or the kicks, we give them

10:01

the poor mates, but we or rent them, but we nicked them

10:03

back in the night. So then they come in the next day

10:05

and you'd go -- Oh. -- you'd go.

10:07

Because they come into the room, you shut the door, and you'd

10:09

be like, She's been a

10:11

problem in there. I'd be like, would you mean to go,

10:13

where's the merchandise? And they'd be like, wha, blah, blah,

10:15

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

10:17

blah, blah. You haven't got it. What

10:19

we're supposed to do with merchandise, we can't sell on. Right?

10:21

Don't worry about it. Give us a tenor, and we'll take care of

10:23

it. And that will keep us in Domino's Pizza. So

10:25

when I said I helped him, it was a bit of a day helped

10:27

me and I sort of helped them out of cash. Was kind of a bit

10:29

of a mix a mixed thing. I wasn't that Machiavellian, but

10:31

it it was a bit of that. So thank

10:33

god, I went to a stage screen. Yeah.

10:35

But I want oh, but the sorry, with the chest thing to

10:37

get back I went to them and said listen, I'm playing

10:40

this chess tournament. I know a few bits. Can you give me the

10:42

best opener? And they basically gave me an opener. I

10:44

practice it just kind of verbatim and then did it

10:46

and just to feed to this kid. But then, of course, no

10:48

one could give me the victory. Everyone said, like, you

10:50

know, I I must have threatened the kid. Just I

10:52

must have said, you know, let's not break everything, you

10:54

know, bone your body. Unfortunately, I didn't. I I

10:56

generally beat the firm's square, but in everything else I did

10:58

from school, I did everything. And that was the benefit of it.

11:00

My parents were amazing with everything, really.

11:02

At some point before Christmas, let's say we're

11:04

a charity chess game. Yes, I've got some Ukrainian

11:06

charities. I'm sure you've got some your

11:08

charities and who are the SASKU Foundation.

11:11

Yes. And whoever wins has

11:13

to give some money to the

11:15

– sorry, the loser gives money to

11:17

them. I mean, I have to do that. And because looking

11:19

forward to giving a lot of money to your credit insurances.

11:22

Yeah. Listen. I'm not sure if I think John

11:24

Sweeney bloody a chest thing. I mean, I don't know how

11:26

I got to talk to this. By the way, I'm just black. But

11:28

we're not playing rugby together. No. It's

11:30

fine.

11:46

I love rugby. From afar,

11:48

I didn't play it as a kid, but there

11:50

are moments when it's completely and

11:52

utterly beautiful, and it can be brutal.

11:54

Yeah. And you yourself have had spinal surgery -- Yeah. --

11:56

which is the thing as a war reporter,

11:58

which scares me the most incapacity,

12:00

is a much rather

12:02

looser well,

12:04

let's be honest. You'd rather not have anything,

12:07

but losing your balls is the

12:09

worst thing. And then the second is

12:11

being paralyzed. Yeah. And then

12:13

everything else I can live with -- Yeah. -- being blinded,

12:15

losing a leg, losing an arm. I

12:17

don't care. It's alright. You can get around it.

12:19

Yeah. But incapacity that's

12:21

a terrifying thing. How do you wrestle with

12:23

that? And when the moment the doctor said this

12:25

and that you've got to have spinal surgery? Well, I was

12:27

there when Matt Hanson broke his neck So

12:29

we were nineteen, and we were in the

12:32

Northampton, Frank's Gardens, and we were

12:34

doing a a live scrumaging session. And I was

12:36

on the I played Flanker, so

12:38

which sits on an outside of a prop. You have to look

12:40

it up if you don't know what I'm talking about. But

12:42

essentially, I have my shoulder resting on a prop, and we we

12:44

went down for a scrum, and Matt

12:46

Samson was on my side, and he's went into scrum. He

12:48

they hit, the scrum collapsed. Ever got up

12:50

apart from Matt, and I remember standing and sort

12:52

of hopping around because I was closest to it. I went to pick

12:54

him up. And the doctor had rushed down and said, you're right. Your

12:56

eye just can't because I can't feel my

12:58

legs straight away, can't feel my legs.

13:00

And no none of the other lads didn't really hear that. And

13:02

he sort of lets kept laying on the floor, and and I

13:04

always like looking around going Jesus. This is

13:06

awful. The the coach then

13:08

moved us back realizing something quite serious had

13:10

happened. And, you know, then I heard him

13:12

say, starting, so I can't really breathe. Can't

13:14

really breathe? I moved this all the way in classic sort

13:16

of feel rugby mentality. We carried on

13:18

doing sort of line outs on moved all the forwards

13:20

to the other side of the field doing line outs. And then when

13:22

we look back Kaikatoni Spraberry was

13:24

giving CPR to Matt

13:26

Hamps on the side of the field. And it

13:28

subsequently turned out that he had

13:30

dislocated his neck broken and and Dolce damaged his

13:32

spinal cord. If Tony Spradbury hadn't

13:34

been there and has trained his paramedic, he would have

13:36

died because all the facilities

13:39

that should have been in place just weren't there. They

13:41

just they weren't the laws. They wasn't the environment

13:43

because no one had had done that. And so

13:45

subsequently off the back of that, obviously, they changed the way

13:47

that, you know, you have to a spinal board. They didn't even have a spinal board.

13:49

They didn't have any of the kind of stuff, you know,

13:51

defibrillate to everything that's required. And

13:53

everyone is, you know, rigorously now trained

13:55

in how to how to manage that. And

13:57

then Matt obviously went on and never walked

13:59

again. He said, Matt, you know, get

14:01

busy living center and the Matt a

14:03

Samsung foundation. He's same age as

14:05

me. My career went one way. He's went went

14:07

in a different direction. And he's been amazing. He's

14:09

helped so many women out with spinal injuries and he's

14:11

he's incredible. Never walked again. And if

14:13

that wasn't a reminder at the early

14:15

age of nineteen, the fragility of aid,

14:17

human body, circumstance, everything else, I

14:19

don't know what I don't know what it is. So that for me,

14:21

was your wake up call. That I didn't ever have to think about

14:23

it apart from that, you know. But do you

14:25

do you I mean, there's also an

14:27

issue with bulk seeing. Yes. And and my son's a

14:29

boxer. He's an amateur boxer. But

14:31

he loves it and he loves the discipline. And at the

14:33

same time, there is a head

14:35

injury problem with that great sport

14:37

and there is a head injury problem with

14:39

rugby. Should it be changed? Well,

14:41

it's very interesting. I I actually spoke I won't

14:43

I won't say who it is because a medical

14:45

confidentiality, but I I called

14:47

up my mate the other day and and a lot of my

14:49

teammates and sort of my peers now

14:51

said showing signs of early onset

14:53

dementia. And a couple of guys with MND. I don't

14:55

What's so MND? Most of your monocities.

14:58

But can you get that from well here? Okay. So inter this

15:00

is interesting thing. Again. And this is how statistics and

15:02

you know as a, you know, as a kind of very

15:05

successful reporter is that

15:07

statistics and stuff can be manipulates how we

15:09

want to. Yes. There was some recent

15:11

study that showed that rubber players there

15:13

was a massive increase in the likelihood of getting

15:15

dementia if you were to, you know, to do a

15:17

contact sport. It then

15:19

said, you were two hundred times more

15:21

likely to get motor neurons disease.

15:23

However, the chance of you getting it in

15:25

the first place was zero point zero

15:27

four percent hundred times that. It's still

15:29

greater, but it's not great. It's not prolific.

15:31

Yes. So but dementia is I

15:33

mean, let's let's see the M and D side.

15:35

But that's scary too. Yeah.

15:37

So should the rules be changed? IIII

15:39

mean, I was gonna say this. So he he just had

15:41

a a brain scan. Well, it wasn't good. Like,

15:43

it wasn't good. I think the issue

15:45

with anything is that rugby is a contact sport.

15:47

Right? Boxings are contact sport. There is no way

15:49

to make contact sports safer in the

15:52

action of what what is happening. You can't ask a

15:54

box in a punch lighter or

15:56

UFC fighter to punch lighter or a rubber

15:58

player to tackle softer because it's just it's a

15:59

collision sport. What you can do is

16:02

get proper experts reviewing you, not

16:04

physios who, you know, have qualified

16:06

physiotherapy, but not qualified in urology,

16:08

reduce the amount of games, stop

16:10

fiddling with the rules in terms of if you have a

16:12

conclusive incident, making sure you're off for three weeks

16:14

straight away, getting brain scans, getting, you

16:16

know, looking at how to manage

16:18

those players. And also understanding that the, you

16:20

know, things like playing around with the tackle height and

16:22

stuff. It's not gonna make that much for difference, I don't

16:24

think, you know. And I think you're gonna end up killing the

16:26

game before you actually make it better. And I think that

16:28

anyone goes into it needs to know that it's a

16:30

contact sport. I went into it with that a

16:32

full understanding. But did I know

16:34

that if I was to to continuously play this

16:36

game that I was gonna have a real risk

16:38

dimension. I didn't because the

16:40

education wasn't there. Now I know. Do

16:42

I regret it? No. Because

16:44

it was my job it gave my career. It's why I'm being

16:46

into me by yourself today. That's

16:48

why I have lots of opportunities in

16:50

life and I was good at it and I gave everything

16:52

and I like the discipline, I like the content, I like

16:54

the physicality, I think I was overtrained?

16:56

Yes. Do I think I was medley looked after

16:58

very well? No. Do I think that we you

17:01

know, that players are put on a conveyor button

17:03

absolutely ended? And come out the other side with no help. So I finished,

17:05

and you mentioned my spinal surgery. I reckon I've

17:07

done about fifty grams worth of medical

17:09

bills myself since I finished playing, whether

17:12

that injections, MRI scans. I'm not insured. I can't get

17:14

insurance. You know, everything's the insurance is the

17:16

biggest fucking bullshit thing in the world. But the

17:18

insurance excluded. You're talking to a freelance

17:20

war report. Yeah. Yeah. And so

17:22

my and my ex were still pals. She

17:24

used to do lots of things, but one of the things she used to

17:26

freelance from BBC money box.

17:28

Right? So whether I've got some kind of financial

17:30

stuff, I'd like to call her out. And she just

17:32

said, John, health insurance is a waste

17:34

of time. Life insurance for you is just

17:36

stupid. Yeah. You just and, you know, go to

17:39

a restaurant. Yes. And it's

17:41

true. I can't get it. Well, I can get

17:43

insurance, but it's got a

17:45

Ukraine. It's it would break the bank. Yeah. The

17:47

premium on it alone. And then I just go, you know,

17:49

insurance, fuck you. Yeah. And

17:51

the insurance company owners

17:53

listening. Yeah. Fuck you. From both of them. Yeah.

17:55

Fuck you. Yes. Because it's because I

17:57

mean, I wouldn't mind I mean, if it was if it was so much

17:59

that you did it and you didn't use it and they paid you

18:01

back a bit of it or they were willing to

18:03

pay out. Like, you know, some of my some of

18:05

my teammates, have retired on career end

18:07

injuries and still won't get paid out. They're

18:09

still fighting over everything.

18:28

When's the moment where you say to

18:30

yourself, you know what? I'm gonna talk about my

18:32

mental health issues. So the mental health

18:34

thing is is an interesting one. And and

18:36

where where I come at it is is slightly different.

18:38

So I I have look, everybody's got

18:40

stuff going on. Yeah. Everybody.

18:42

It doesn't matter. We're we're the most grounded, most

18:44

successful. And in your job, you know, the the

18:46

stuff you've seen and or ability for

18:48

humans just compress things down and get on

18:50

and and work in horrific environments, do

18:52

horrific things, be asked to do horrific things, and

18:54

just bottle that up and then get on with it. It's

18:56

amazing how people can do that for

18:58

me, I didn't I've never had what I would class in

19:00

inverted commas mental health issues. What I

19:02

what I did very early on in my career was

19:04

start seeing a psychologist. When I was seventeen, which

19:06

was quite early on. I looked at earlier earlier.

19:08

Yeah. I looked I looked at my

19:10

career and what I was doing, and I was very

19:12

dedicated and and again,

19:14

I came from privileged backgrounds. I didn't have a lot of sort of

19:16

loss and hardship. But I I and then

19:18

where my journey started, I tried offering them

19:20

on the sixteenth. When I was younger, didn't get in all

19:22

the way to Final Truck, didn't get in my first sense of

19:25

real disappointment. And the reason I didn't get in, I didn't do

19:27

any of the extra training, didn't do any extra

19:29

work, was fucking about Didn't really deal with pressure,

19:31

didn't deal with kind of people talking me out

19:33

of staff, didn't deal with the with other, you know,

19:35

intimidation, all the other stuff in in a

19:37

microcosm of my life. It's

19:39

context It's not like hot you I'm all a twist, but that for me, that's

19:41

the reason. And I remember I didn't get to didn't

19:43

get in. This guy called me out. I was in tears, and

19:45

my dad said to me, listen, you couldn't

19:48

see there's an opportunity to get better

19:50

and you know you didn't put a work in. How

19:52

much you want to make? You know you're

19:54

not great at you know these things whether you want to admit it to me or not,

19:56

or you can just playtesting for a bit of fun and we just give

19:58

up and that wasn't it. And I just said, well, you know what fuck

20:01

I'm gonna show them. So I got a

20:03

personal trainer started coming to school twice a

20:05

week, a bit like a rocky montage. I went from being

20:07

tall and skinny to really big, you know, so

20:09

much so that all throughout my career in as early as

20:11

I was talking to a friend about on Saturday. Who thought I

20:13

was on steroids generally because I just when

20:15

I when I met I was training three days a week,

20:17

training at night between nine and ten after

20:19

homework I was training with off days. I wasn't

20:21

drinking. Wasn't chasing girls. Didn't do anything.

20:23

Was doing weights. Was eating. And I just became

20:25

bigger than everybody else. Not like, I don't want to

20:27

say a big, but just big. And a lot of times

20:29

when people when you put a work, if you wanna

20:31

find an excuses to why what your reasoning is and

20:33

why you why you've, you know, why you've

20:36

changed. And I did that, got all the way through it. And when I went into a professional

20:38

career, I had that mentality straight away. And

20:40

I looked at, well, I'm looking after my training. I'm looking after

20:42

my diet. I'm doing extra speed. I'm doing

20:45

extra skills. What's one element? I'm not focused on my mind. And my

20:47

godfather's wife, a lady called doctor Jill Owen,

20:49

was a psychologist. My godfather kept saying to me, hey,

20:51

listen, you should speak to Jill. You should speak

20:53

to Jill. Spout, you know, she's a great

20:55

performance person as well. She works as

20:57

sports people. And I had this image of you to

20:59

lay on a shaves long crying

21:01

about you know, you pay your PE

21:03

teacher touch or whatever it might be or

21:05

some dramatic thing that happened to warrant speaking

21:07

to a psychologist. And anyway, I booked an appointment because

21:09

I'm one of those people that always gives everything a go.

21:11

So I got in there, I spoke to her, and we talked

21:13

to him out, when you're playing thirty or forty games

21:16

a season, how do you, you know, get

21:18

consistent preparation? So if we're

21:20

playing five games a season, you could do

21:22

it on emotion alone. Emotion will carry you through.

21:24

But imagine in thirty games a season,

21:26

you're tired, your partners upset you, your

21:28

selection has not been good, the media hate you, you know,

21:30

you're playing a tough opposition, you know, you're just feeling

21:32

shit about yourself. How do you consistently

21:34

do that? So we started to look at like using

21:36

music as a tool to get consistency,

21:38

looking at notes to, you know,

21:40

on how or key performance things you

21:42

wanted to put into a game, highlight reels. And

21:44

I suddenly started looking at it. I realized in that that period of time,

21:46

I didn't have a lot of confidence in myself. The

21:48

self confidence was a real issue. And it's a

21:50

very weird thing because it's a juxtaposition

21:53

between the person you see in front of you now, was very happy to speak

21:55

in front of people, bit of a class cloud, very

21:57

happy to talk. But if it came

21:59

to my sport or my rugby, or even

22:01

now if I a DJ or I doing after dinner or I do

22:03

some stand up, whatever it is. It doesn't go well. I

22:06

wear it quite badly. You know, I'm sort of a

22:08

veteran getting get better at getting over and I think

22:10

that's what people forget about mental health. Mental

22:12

health is not eradicating shit days.

22:14

It's not eradicating feeling bad or feeling

22:16

upset. It's about going I'm

22:18

having its normal experience, its normal human emotion. How do I get back

22:20

on track? And the one thing that I worked with her

22:22

from me for, you know, from seventeen to

22:24

the other week, was on these

22:26

elements. And as I unpacked more and more stuff, I

22:28

found out that I didn't deal with criticism particularly well. I

22:31

started to understand how I wanted to

22:33

learn. So if I spoke to you after this podcast, I

22:35

said, you listened to. I did a lot of podcasting. What did you

22:37

think? And you went, well, you're fucking crap. You know what?

22:39

You you meander, you talk bullshit, and then said, go,

22:41

well, I'm working it. For some people, that

22:43

might be, well, I'm gonna show John Sweeney,

22:46

or it might break me. For me, in

22:48

my case, it would probably be quite disappointing

22:50

that, you know, that I kind of British TV had told me that

22:52

oh shit. What I prefer you to do be to say, listen, I didn't

22:54

think you were great at this. I thought you did this

22:56

well. Let me show you how I can help you get

22:58

better. And even from that mindset,

23:00

meant that when I was going into different situations,

23:02

work situations I started to learn, and I

23:04

was just very vocal about that. And I couldn't understand

23:06

that if you asked in a in a room of

23:08

thirty five professionals, how many people talk to

23:11

psychologists. I'd be the only one put my hand up. I was

23:13

the only one listening to music, but on the bus back

23:15

in the day now, everybody does. And but but point

23:17

is you did that because you failed to get

23:19

in touch with the the the sixteen. Yeah.

23:21

And that's the fascinating thing because

23:23

failure teaches you stuff. Yes. And the

23:25

weird by the way, I'd never say to anybody that you're

23:27

shit, but I would crack a joke implying that they

23:29

would Yes. Yes. Mhmm. It hides a lot of

23:31

things. So it doesn't hide

23:34

it. It softens the blow. Yes. And so when I

23:36

just the other day, we went to the front line. I'm

23:38

back I'm working with two people.

23:41

I've hardly met before. Garik optima, English, you

23:43

try any woman called Julia. And the the

23:45

rules are simple as we just take the piss out of

23:47

it all the time. Because

23:49

we took the piss out of each other all the time, if

23:51

you're a little cross with somebody or somebody's

23:53

fucked up somewhere, it's okay because it's

23:55

a joke. Yes. Though it's not a joke. And that is

23:57

kinda And we did that all the time, especially in in,

23:59

I think, you know, sports change rooms even

24:01

though Donald Trump mentioned twice now, you

24:03

know, bars adise it with his just locker room talk, excuse to quote

24:05

women. Do you remember he said you just grab a bite of pussy,

24:07

and then he said I was just locker room banter. It's

24:09

like, no, it's not. You

24:11

know, but I my whole life

24:13

has been that environment, you know, for

24:15

a very early age. All boys schools. So

24:17

I'm not the most rounded human being in the world. All

24:19

boys schools into professional sport, to the age of

24:21

thirty five. And I spent a lot of time kind of

24:23

unwind that mentality and kind of be a little

24:25

bit more worldly, worldly wise. But actually

24:27

one of the things we've always done has been able to have honest conversations,

24:30

do everything human. My entire life has

24:32

spent taking the piss. And what I discovered in the real

24:34

world is that a lot of

24:36

times it that's bullying. If you don't if you don't quite get it right, because

24:38

you don't necessarily have the same ability to

24:40

reflect. Yes. So it's hard when I'm

24:42

dealing with somebody who

24:44

doesn't have your mentality.

24:46

Or or or or or at least my my gift with the

24:48

funny face, whatever. And it

24:50

helps them in my sixties, as

24:53

I said, that I can look back at my life and I and I think, you

24:55

know, I don't have to kill myself.

24:57

No. And so weirdly, as you get

24:59

older, you feel less

25:01

pressure. Yeah. I feel happier now, but I've

25:03

ever done my whole life. And that isn't because my life's

25:05

wonderful at the moment. It isn't perfect.

25:07

But at least I I can live better

25:09

with myself. And part of that is

25:11

experience and it's when you

25:13

hit the ground, you know, don't worry because you

25:15

can pick yourself up again and you can do

25:17

something. And that resilience or

25:19

something, that a beautiful thing. But that is resilient.

25:21

There's a lot of people now, the buzzwords. And and I

25:23

think social media puts a magnifying glass

25:25

on all of these things, and it all the everyone

25:27

has to latch onto and people ask about resilience and

25:29

motivation. I think motivation for me is a very

25:31

dangerous thing. Motivation comes and goes. Sometimes you

25:33

motivate, sometimes you're not. The other thing, there are

25:35

days and times where you

25:37

just set fuck it. All I wanna do is sit in the cafe and have a

25:39

jam down. Yeah. Yeah. And, actually, and

25:41

not, you know, write a novel -- Yeah. -- whatever. Because

25:43

I'd actually quite like to have

25:45

some time off from this relentless north Yes. And I but I think

25:47

I think you're told that being, you

25:49

know, no days off, hashtag no days off

25:51

and all this I don't I don't think it's right. I don't think it's the

25:53

way you should live your life. Equally, I don't think you need to

25:55

be motivated. What you need is resilience. And the only way you

25:58

get resilience is by trying You you

25:59

can't just suddenly be resilient. You've gotta

26:02

fail. You've gotta get it wrong. You've gotta learn.

26:04

And I think the way you get resilience as well is

26:06

things like seeking feedback from people

26:08

getting feedback from colleagues and workmates and testing stuff out. Like, I run

26:10

a couple of businesses. And again, you can see

26:12

sometimes the way I deal with things and I will

26:14

make jokes and stuff isn't right or

26:16

expectation. I turned up. Again, it's in San Devery,

26:18

but it's not. It's, you know, I've done enough shoots and

26:20

enough filming days, you know, where you

26:22

know that the crew and you'll

26:24

notice it. Crew takes fucking ages to set ups. Very

26:26

good. I bet so are you the best

26:28

cameraman on the BBC, one of them

26:30

anyway? I used to call the empress of

26:32

Fath. And and he was faffing around with the fucking

26:34

shot. And I was in a river in the

26:36

Congo doing some kind of I thought he

26:38

asked the rogers smelly, the man from the

26:41

telly. Yeah. I'm not just merely the man from the telly, and I'm

26:43

standing in the river in the Congo, and these

26:45

other guys are sieving the

26:47

river for gold. And

26:49

they don't like being filmed. And

26:51

I have to say something. And

26:53

the cameraman is endlessly fapping.

26:55

And these guys, you know, some of them have got

26:57

Machete. I mean, it's okay. Yeah.

26:59

But let's get on with it, please. Yeah. Yeah. And

27:01

there's that thing around fuck fuck that thing. You know? And

27:03

I always give it that 1II come on

27:05

a shit. I said, this, fuck, you know, you're not Steven's

27:08

Bilbo. You're not David Bailey. Just take your foot

27:10

off the gas lads. It's fine. I could pretty much

27:12

do what you do on your iPhone now. You know, I

27:14

got all this Acupro tomorrow, all these lighting.

27:16

Honestly, because I turned off an issue and there'll be four

27:18

cameras, all this stuff, and I go, fuck me. You're allowed

27:20

to justify the job. and they all smile. And I go, you've

27:22

obviously budgeted way more than you need because it's

27:24

a pretty much get me a lapel mic and a

27:26

iPhone. I'm getting a similar shot. By the way,

27:28

this is talent talk folks. I

27:30

mean, if there is a a proper cameraman or

27:32

producer, I mean, I was talking exactly with the

27:34

those people last night or earlier this morning

27:36

on the drink, and they would say,

27:38

shut up. Yeah. I don't know what you're asking to talk about.

27:40

Yeah. And the moment the talent

27:43

says, we've done it. They're talking rubbish.

27:45

Yeah. And all the talent I mean, the thing is

27:47

just eat the worm, John. Yes. You

27:49

know? Yeah. That's where you're playing in the River John.

27:51

I got up. Yeah. Well, I so I got

27:53

on his shoot the other day and I turned up and I could see

27:55

him and they they just had all these pelly cases and

27:57

they were unpacking and it was screens

27:59

and lenses and the guy that starts to work with the end product. He doesn't he's

28:02

amazing. We just did a campaign

28:04

for Domino's, but we've got Mike Tindles in a

28:06

helicopter. And, honestly, in terms of

28:08

content creation, It's it's

28:10

like it is like a movie. You know, it should be

28:12

putting the Cam film festival. It's so good. And then we're

28:14

doing something else. Kinda never do it. What? I don't

28:16

do it yet. And I I walked in

28:18

went Oh, you know, we're fucking hell. And I said the guy's

28:20

fuck it. They said, you know, I said times money on this

28:22

job. I said, I've I've just scoffed, you know, I'm a sausage

28:24

egg with muffin' to get here on time. And you're still

28:26

packing stuff up. I said they got please.

28:28

Rule number one lads. And everyone sort of laughed, he

28:30

said, rule number one. Don't never invite me

28:32

until an hour after they say. He said, how long

28:34

you're gonna be? Goes, I'll be ten minutes. Right? Watch this. Forty five

28:36

minutes later, he'll still be faffing. Yeah. So if everyone's laughing,

28:38

but then it was kind of the warning. The guy came up to

28:40

a officer, look, I'll I'll book you an hour after. He said,

28:43

yeah, not a problem, but I don't

28:45

need to watch them set up. I just need to set up and do what

28:47

I'm gonna do. And so the sort of joy podcast

28:49

thing is you can get straight to it.

28:51

Yes. Now, there's a moment where you have to say, you know what?

28:53

I'm hanging up my boots. Yes. Did

28:55

you cry? Yes. I did. There's there's three the

28:57

the they're not on you for being honest about

28:59

Yeah. This is like There are moments, like, we're both

29:02

successful on on weird world. Yeah.

29:04

There are moments you go, fucking hell. This

29:06

is bad. Like, I do know what? I can't really you talked

29:08

about kind of the change himself or the toxic

29:10

masculinity or whatever it is. I just

29:12

think, you know, again, I joked in

29:14

the opening stuff about kind of the the

29:16

things that school and stuff. If you were to look at

29:18

toxic masculinity in the dictionary, I'm sure there's a

29:20

picture of me that's sort of fending off, you

29:22

know, fending off some people, but not not

29:24

intentionally. I think I'm quite I wasn't

29:26

quite honest. I don't miss any

29:28

bravado in struggling or or hiding it, you

29:30

know. And I see with fans when you meet

29:32

fans. They overcompensate, and I just talk with

29:34

Betty and I'm not sure I my bill is

29:36

relevant in the newbuild approach that caution because

29:38

they overcompensate. People see me. They

29:40

overcompensate. They think and I see it

29:42

with family members and sort of

29:44

other people. Think, oh, John, we've gotta real laddy, you

29:46

know, and up straight away. Straight away. Yes.

29:48

They they got it they got us to talk about kind

29:50

of, you know, offer a a story

29:52

about some sort of act of violence. I

29:54

I talked to when I was doing MMA stuff, which is a mad decision

29:56

after playing. I'm talking to MMA, guys. Everyone

29:58

sort of comes out and says, oh, god. This one

30:00

time I was in street fight and it's like, sorry,

30:02

what are you talking about? We haven't even met. People will

30:04

talk about violence. People will make comments

30:07

about kind of sexuality, you know, which I

30:09

find quite weird. The fans. Well, fuck, you know,

30:11

why why wearing that floral shirt has a little bit like a

30:13

bit of a pouf mate? And you're like, what?

30:15

What what? Yeah. But that's also about because

30:17

you're you're a big bloke. Yeah. And there's something

30:19

about I've got a challenge too. What do you mean? But

30:21

also my sexuality, why why

30:23

would again, this is why I because my

30:25

brother's gay, I do a lot for kind of know,

30:27

LGBTQ stuff. I just don't understand,

30:29

like, why showing a

30:31

vulnerable side? I'm showing an emotional side of dressing differently?

30:33

Or what I like my one off hair color. This is pink. Like,

30:36

always wearing doesn't mean isn't

30:38

mean anything about myself. And I just I find that

30:40

very funny, and I feel that my

30:42

honesty has always been kind

30:44

of my strong suit. I I don't your your honestly,

30:46

it's your shield -- Yeah. -- because it means that

30:48

you have integrity -- Yeah. -- because they're you're

30:50

joined up as well. I

30:53

think on things that always it's always very

30:55

difficult is when people put up persona and we

30:57

all, you know, we all wanna get on in life and

30:59

be successful. But you always see these falls from grace

31:01

where people pretend that the shit doesn't stink and

31:03

they also attend that they're like, something they're not, virtue

31:05

signaling, fight, and a good fight, talking

31:07

about stuff they don't understand, and they're

31:09

getting involved. We're

31:11

actually just shut the fuck up. We let other

31:13

people it's other people's journey. And and with

31:15

with kind of the the crying stuff, it

31:17

it you know, I didn't cry my wedding day,

31:19

which my wife still gives

31:21

me shit for. Still tells you that I should've fucking cried. And I was

31:23

like, I was I was gonna be happy. I was

31:26

excited. I was excited by the

31:28

whole thing. burst it is, and my

31:30

daughter was born. And that

31:32

was kind of and it makes me weird

31:34

weirdly emotional. This is your first child yet.

31:36

Well, absolutely. BODI.

31:38

But her name's Bodie, Georgia Ray Haskell, and she's

31:40

It's Bodie's son for boom boom boom boomers here. I

31:42

don't know what it is. Right? This is again what I

31:44

come get my wife so we she likes

31:46

boys' names for girls. Right? All his husband's, we're gonna

31:48

call it, like, Dylan or George or whatever it whatever

31:50

all the other names where we went through. And she

31:52

came up with BODI. One of our friends had thought about it. And

31:54

actually, the only BODI I know is from point

31:57

break. Patrick Swayze's character

31:59

is BODI. BODI's after. So I

32:01

I said, well, I quite like that. A quite cool name. But I went

32:03

Chloe, you know, if she's my child and she

32:05

gets my genes, you know, she's gonna be a,

32:07

you know, a big old bit of kit. Do we really we have to very

32:09

careful what we call it, because if you call a petal,

32:12

you know, Petal Haskell, put a six foot three coming in

32:14

with, you know, a lesbian biker

32:16

girlfriend, Terry, and a bandana. It's not gonna look

32:18

great, isn't it? Tell me. So I said, you gotta be a bit

32:20

considerate of that. And so she So

32:22

she came up with she came up with BODI and she loved

32:24

it. And actually, when she was born, I looked her and I and I

32:26

was like, you know what? I love it. And it apparently

32:28

means because every name needs to have a justification.

32:31

It's ancient Sound script. It means

32:33

enlightenment and it's a lot of people

32:35

in, I think, is it India or Pakistan? I

32:37

might be completely wrong here. Pray to the bodhi

32:39

tree or type of tree. So it has

32:41

some wanky ethereal things with it.

32:44

Sweet. How's the fuck you're a dad?

32:46

Does that change you? Yes. It has in terms I've

32:48

never felt a love for for anything

32:50

like this. Yes. But it

32:53

it's like It's like

32:55

a love that like creeps out and kicks in

32:57

balls every time you you have it like the

32:59

the other day I my my wife and I had

33:01

a night out, we we came back wake

33:03

up in the morning, and I and, you know,

33:05

bodhi slept sleeping next to Chloe in this in this

33:07

docket top thing. And I remember waking up, and

33:09

she'd obviously picked her up in in the morning was feeding

33:11

it, and she'd fallen asleep on her arm. And I woke up and

33:13

it was a bit dusty. And I looked over. And there's

33:16

two women I love, but on the end was my

33:18

daughter. And I just it sort of hadn't forgotten, but I

33:20

was like, fuck. What is that? And look

33:22

how cute she is, and she's the most amazing thing. And

33:24

even this morning, my wife was in the shower. I

33:26

was talking to her, and she that we dropped off in bed

33:28

on a pillow. She's only tiny. With a

33:30

duvet underneath, it just looks like a cranky

33:32

old woman in in bed. And it just it just

33:34

shocks me every time, and she's just a cutest

33:36

thing I and III sort of people

33:38

talked about this love that kind of crap

33:40

manifests itself and that it becomes dominant and

33:42

that you'll do anything for your kids. And I honestly

33:44

just couldn't relate to it. A new

33:46

a new love what? I experienced

33:48

love, but I think love's different every time

33:50

you have it. You know, I don't think there's a consistent love.

33:52

I think with things like relationships, you love

33:54

people differently. They're they're part is

33:56

differently. Some some in in different ways, not with

33:58

any less intensity. But with her, it's

33:59

just like an inherent soul

34:02

grabbing Yeah. Lovely. You that I, you know,

34:04

that I find so weird. And I and I felt it as soon as

34:06

I saw her heart, but, you know, some men find it hard to adjust. I

34:08

find it hard now because every time

34:10

She sees my wife. She now can move her head and follows around the room, and he's very excited to see

34:12

her. She'll give me the old smile, but sometimes if we

34:14

get a kiss, she starts crying. Girl,

34:18

I'm like, down here. Well well, that would that would go for me

34:20

too. But yeah. But not I've

34:22

just recently become a a grandfather. But

34:24

that is an old friend of mine said

34:27

being a grand apparent is the

34:29

desert of life. Yeah. And that's something I really want

34:32

to.

34:46

So you leave rugby.

34:48

Yes. You cry. Yes. And then what you

34:50

what do you do the next morning, you pick yourself up and

34:53

say, you know what? I'm gonna do something

34:56

interesting now. I've always had the mentality to do

34:58

stuff outside of my sport. I've always had

35:00

it's not entrepreneurial. It

35:04

has been I have a real desire for life. I think you only get one opportunity. think

35:06

we all we strive to have goals. And

35:08

I think you always find out at the end whatever time

35:10

of life that is that it was the journey that

35:13

mattered. It was doing everything every day that you enjoyed. And even the

35:15

interactions, like, I didn't know what to expect from this morning.

35:18

Someone asked me to do it. I was like, yeah, a hundred percent love to

35:20

do it. I've had load of fun.

35:22

It's interesting. It's given me a different dynamic. I'm going

35:24

on to do something else and do my own podcast

35:26

later, interview a

35:28

comedian writer. Because doing some standard. Every day is filled with fun, but I did that while was

35:30

playing when it was DJ and Writing books.

35:32

So I had a preparation for for life

35:34

outside of Rogue B, and I feel that

35:37

if you have your job and your family, more if

35:40

not some of them can go wrong, you need something that

35:42

you own, whether it's a hobby, even it's just reading. I've always

35:44

loved reading. What's your

35:46

favorite book? My favorite

35:48

ever. Oh, god. What is it? It's

35:50

Oh, come on. Oh, sorry. High pressure. Low

35:52

pressure. Low pressure. Low pressure. Low pressure.

35:54

Low pressure. Low pressure. It's

35:57

oh, fuck me. I literally read it. Oh,

35:59

no. I didn't read it long. By

36:01

the way, this this is great because

36:03

there's an old bloke. You know, people

36:05

say, oh, you've forgotten Yes. Oh, we don't have it. Actually,

36:07

it's I can't remember the title. It's by locals, someone sure, and

36:09

it's about magicians. My wife recommended

36:11

it to me. I'm gonna fucking remember what it is now

36:13

because I read it the

36:16

other days. I love that when people say, he's my best mate. What's his name? Can't

36:18

remember. I do I do love it, but I can't remember

36:20

what the hell the name was. Two, I am really loving though at the

36:22

moment. Is the

36:24

which Osman books. You know, the the first time I've done this. I'm gonna go through this. I

36:26

I've done I I we honestly of all the the books. He's

36:28

not the envious of his success. Yes. And

36:30

and by the and that's a pathetic thing.

36:32

No. It's not. I I don't think I get that

36:34

all the time with the DJ and Music and Performance

36:36

stuff. I think if you are into

36:40

those things, I want to cheese them. I think it's quite a nice reminder to

36:42

look at someone else's garden and go, wow, how well

36:44

they've done. And a bit of envy can

36:46

drive you on. As only

36:47

if it becomes all consuming, you

36:49

keep looking in their garden is where you go wrong. Yes. So you

36:51

can go, but what I should do is is

36:54

read his book. Yes. And it can but it also can

36:56

reaffirm that

36:58

anything's possible. And when you read that first book, so the Thursday morning from a book

37:00

I've read picked up, I walked into an airport and I there's

37:02

something romantic about going into a

37:04

a sort of a well, before you travel,

37:07

going to a bookshop, getting a brand new book and

37:09

reading it, and it's starting at the adventure on holiday.

37:11

And I and I, you know, one of my favorite thing

37:13

I'm doing on holidays is just to sit and sit and

37:15

read. Actually, you're absolutely there's a beautiful one of the

37:17

favorite type of things I have about traveling

37:19

is going to the airport and then looking at

37:21

in the book shops. And then kind

37:23

of like a couple of writers I don't like and not trying

37:25

to hide their books. Yeah. I really. And if I've

37:27

got one there, then I sort of

37:30

like, I wrote that folks. And then I sort of

37:32

don't be processing and I can't go run away and hide. But did did you try to do that? I

37:34

called my a again, do we like mine? Because I went to

37:36

the airport the day. And I ran

37:38

away. Total Wayne. My list reagent. I went,

37:40

where the

37:42

fuck? Well, my book's not on display. WHS witnesses. I've been to his airport five six

37:44

time. Why they never on display? Why the other people just

37:46

you know? And he was like, oh, oh, I'm not sure. I

37:48

was like, look, look, it's all down. So I

37:52

pay my agent who takes the piss out of me. I I shut

37:54

up. Yeah. And and I and I and I

37:56

and I kind of like it. So what is your

37:58

whole career? And and it can be

37:59

rugby and

38:02

not rugby? What is the sweetest moment in your life and what is the darkest moment in

38:04

your life. The darkest moment first. The

38:06

darkest moment I think for me

38:08

was injury and kind of

38:10

the last year of my of my career falling into my

38:12

retirement. Yes. It was prepared for retirement,

38:14

but equally I was completely under prepared for

38:16

it. Things

38:18

do and people thought I was gonna be alright, but nothing I did was vocational,

38:20

so I had to hustle all the time.

38:22

And we went straight into a pandemic, which

38:24

means that everything I did was public

38:26

facing, so there was no place to do that. My injury, I had

38:28

always been very athletic, very

38:30

mobile. I was defined by my size,

38:33

my power, but I was unable perform

38:35

as I would want. People were telling me I was

38:37

old. People were telling me that I should, you know, I

38:39

should retire. I was coming home from training

38:42

kind of sitting there just going out, what fuck am I doing? My life is awful. I

38:44

wanna do more. I wanna play. I wanted to get back into

38:46

England. I wanted to go to a World Cup with Eddie

38:48

Jones. He took the England team to the two thousand

38:50

nineteen World

38:52

Cup. I should have been there. I could have been there. Whether I've been selected not

38:54

is another story, but that's what my goal

38:56

was. And to sort of watch that fall apart,

39:00

and then go into kind of an amazing kind of array

39:02

of kind of holidays going to Fiji and

39:04

Maldives and traveling all over the place and DJ

39:06

around the world and partying and

39:08

doing everything. And start with,

39:10

you know, different careers in writing books and start

39:12

on a journey to MMA and be a professional

39:14

cage fighter was mad. And you went on on the

39:16

celebrity. I did I misleverage again and then, you

39:18

know, and that was and well, that's that is gonna eat the world. There was eat the world.

39:20

I mean, that an equal measure was was amazing and

39:22

exciting and, you know, I I just felt every

39:24

moment, the Z list celebrity I am and then

39:26

and then No.

39:28

I that's something I would say you were AWAW So you know someone sends me

39:30

the con the converse letter. They said that I'm

39:32

where the asterisk and equal signs

39:34

are. I'm below the book

39:36

now. But so good guy. I hear from you guys. Thank

39:38

you. I'll I'll hear that again. I'm just on Sweden. Hey.

39:41

Copy right. As long as you say, copyright, James

39:43

has to go on a reference.

39:45

Oh, yeah. Fuck you. Yeah. And then sorry. yeah. Of course. Yeah. And then

39:47

I think the the so that was

39:49

that was dark. That

39:52

was hard. The problem

39:54

here is that is grueling because

39:56

there isn't an easy end. There's not a there's not

39:58

an easy full stop. It's a kind of

39:59

your slowly sinking. Into a

40:02

mire of I can't do what I

40:04

love doing anymore. Yes.

40:06

And how did you pick yourself

40:08

up from that? I had to work very hard at

40:10

it. I had to speak to a sports college just a lot. I

40:12

used to I used to do some

40:14

hypnotherapy, not in the

40:16

hypnosis subject to kind of visualization more

40:18

than anything like that. And I used a couple of different people

40:20

for that. And I I went back to

40:22

simple simplest of going out what makes me money,

40:24

what do I enjoy, what's important to me in

40:26

life, got back to a routine because I I had no

40:28

reason to wake up in the mornings, you

40:30

know, without being traumatic. I mean, every morning

40:32

being planned out even at

40:34

boarding school. I had structure, had routine, getting back into a

40:36

routine prioritizing what was important to

40:38

me, and that really helped. And then the and the good

40:40

times, you know, doing

40:42

a job every day that you surrounded by thirty or forty, lads that you're pissing

40:44

yourself laughing every day. Give us

40:46

a sweet moment of life, which is

40:48

a story.

40:50

So I mean, I think I mean, some of the some of the I mean, one

40:52

of the the real highlights was winning at Grand Slam

40:54

twenty sixteen. We'd gone away

40:58

to France we lost it three times before. People would

41:00

criticized myself and and and and and I called Chris

41:02

Robshaw, being an England captain. They said

41:04

we were were playing in our right

41:06

positions. It'd also amounted up. We thought, you know,

41:08

this is our last go. We got thrown out of Rome World

41:10

Cup in two thousand fifteen,

41:12

which had never been done before. It was really it

41:14

was a kind of a bad period, Eddie Jones came in,

41:16

played away in France who won that grand slam, and

41:18

that was kind of a sweet moment. But every single

41:20

day of training under Eddie in that

41:23

period, so much fun. And he come in the morning, people

41:25

like a horse mate. He's Australian, but a horse

41:27

mate. You're looking fucking old. And I'll be like, what? What?

41:29

What? He goes, look at old mate. And you go

41:31

and make me a protein shake. There's a head coaching and make me a protein shake. It

41:33

goes, mate, get your fucking vegetables in there. Will you? And, like, come over, give

41:35

it to you every day.

41:38

And, you know, he he comes Because also because you're the character --

41:40

Yes. -- in the squad. Yes. And also if

41:42

you know, like, what you do is you isolate

41:44

the most troubling -- Yes. And

41:47

and then you go for them. Yes. Yeah. And then and then you're

41:49

in control. Yeah. I think I mean, that's what I

41:51

do with soldiers I haven't met before. III

41:53

pick on the biggest or the

41:56

noise. Yeah. And I say, excuse me. You and I I deliberately

41:58

exclude that. Yeah. And and the you can see that. I mean, basically, if you

41:59

get if you get the naughty boys on-site, you're you're

42:02

up going for a win. And so he used to do that

42:04

every day. And I remember just kind of the the

42:06

training camaraderie laughter of that. And did

42:08

you ever suggest to him he should take

42:10

execution less? No.

42:12

George, but Australians love that joke. Have

42:14

you thought of losing your accent, education

42:16

lessons? Yeah. And then what you have to do is wait

42:18

if they hit you, then that's not good. But if

42:20

they laugh, it Well yeah. I mean,

42:22

Eddie, III kinda let it as a bit of a one way

42:24

street with him because he would always well, I'd get

42:26

into a bit, you know, like, the way I joke with him is all where he'd

42:28

always be disappearing off the

42:30

work dues. You know, I always talked about he just filling out another suitcase of cash,

42:32

are you ready? And and he'd come back in and

42:34

he and he'd go big, maybe, double

42:36

suitcase that I had. Double

42:38

suitcase. Even our first meeting, he

42:40

walked in, and we've been thrown out of our own World

42:42

Cup two thousand fifteen, and he came in and he

42:44

stormed into his room. He's like, know, first day as coach

42:46

goes, fucking illness. I'm not being funny, but you guys

42:48

fucking shit. Right? You ate in the world. You tell him that

42:50

Scotland's better than you. You know, we're gonna take you to number

42:52

one in the world. We're gonna make you make sacrifice you

42:54

never made before. Gonna get a

42:56

World Cup final. Some of you aren't gonna make it. Some of the coaches

42:58

aren't gonna make it. It's gonna be the fucking toughest thing you've ever done,

43:00

but I'm gonna help you get there. You're gonna be the best ever.

43:02

We're gonna pull all these good coaches in place. Are you

43:04

ready? I was like, yeah. And I was sitting at the back a

43:06

bit like a naughty boy. And he goes,

43:08

Hatch mate. That's a fuck. That's day

43:10

one. Day one thing. Why is he talking to me?

43:12

Right? He goes, Hatch mate. What's your grip

43:14

strength like? I said, my grip I I it's

43:16

Eddie. He goes, good mate, because you're fucking hanging

43:18

on. And walked out

43:20

and walked out

43:22

of me. And all the lads,

43:24

like, you wank

43:26

ass, you're shit mate, he's gonna get you. But then

43:28

he got the best at me. We we're we're actually

43:30

I mean, he even said it in wanting into, which I was really touched with the guys of all the players he's

43:34

ever coached. Who would be a friend or someone that you would say and actually said me. So

43:36

I must've been doing something about it. Even the naughty

43:38

boys got friends. Good on

43:40

you. So