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feature Bose as a registered trademark of the

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Bose Corporation. Welcome

0:54

to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie

0:56

Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Would

0:59

you say that we're living in a

1:01

sort of Fleetwood Mac Renaissance? The

1:04

Mac-a-scent? Absolutely. What do

1:06

you think makes them so appealing to

1:08

folks? Okay, if I had to break

1:10

it down, Fleetwood Mac have incredible songwriting.

1:19

Immaculate production. Stunning

1:26

vocal harmonies. And

1:36

so much drama. These

1:38

are definitely all true. I feel like there

1:40

are a lot of bands born

1:42

out of the 1960s that have a lot of these qualities

1:46

and yet very few get to

1:48

have songs returned to the hot

1:50

100 because of their ongoing multi-generational

1:54

appeal. I mean, Fleetwood Mac came out

1:56

of the late 60s. They

1:58

were a British blues. group founded

2:01

by Mick Fleetwood on drums,

2:03

John McVean bass, Peter

2:05

Green on guitar, eventually Christine McVee joins

2:08

on keys. In addition

2:10

to a number of rotating cast

2:12

of characters later, the band evolves

2:14

into a pop rock sensation in

2:17

the 70s when they add the Californian

2:19

duo, Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. The

2:22

band takes off on their self-titled so-called

2:25

white album from 1975 and then tops

2:27

themselves with

2:40

their 1977 album Rumors. It's

2:55

been five years since the band has toured. It's

2:58

been more than 20 years since they've released a new

3:00

album. Tragically, they've lost bandmates including

3:02

Christine McVee who died in 2022, creating a

3:05

major riff for the band, a loss

3:07

for fans, really marking the end of

3:10

Fleetwood Mac's active years. And

3:12

nonetheless, I feel like this band

3:14

and their music is at a new peak.

3:17

I feel like they have reached a legendary

3:19

nostalgia phase. Yeah, if you had

3:21

told me that in the 2020s,

3:23

the hot new band on the

3:25

scene would be Fleetwood Mac,

3:28

I would have been like, what are you

3:30

smoking? But 2020, we

3:32

had that viral TikTok. I want to

3:34

say the guy's name was like the

3:37

dog, the doggy face or something. Is

3:39

that right? 420 dog face 208. 420

3:42

dog face 208. This dude

3:44

just chilling with his handlebar mustache

3:47

and his skateboard drinking a Mountain

3:49

Dew, listening to Fleetwood Mac and

3:51

getting like bajillions of views. An

3:53

ocean spray cranberry juice to be

3:55

clear. Okay, okay. I stand corrected.

3:57

Okay. He got a free car and

4:00

eventually built. the house out of the donations

4:02

that he received for this video

4:04

because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac's

4:06

only number one single, Dreams, back

4:10

onto the Billboard charts. And

4:12

since then, we've had Amazon Prime's

4:14

video series, Daisy Jones and the

4:16

Six from 2023, that follows

4:19

a fictional 1970s rock band

4:21

that is basically Fleetwood Mac.

4:23

Thinly veiled. I

4:25

just want this was the way.

4:28

Tell me again, why do

4:31

we sit in such a

4:33

low, lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely?

4:36

Then you have the

4:38

multi-tony award winning play,

4:40

Stereophonic, that is also

4:42

loosely based off

4:44

of the making of Fleetwood Mac's iconic 1977 album, Rumors.

4:48

But I don't know how they're getting away

4:50

with this thing because it's basically just Fleetwood

4:53

Mac. The Macassants continues. There's

5:10

a great book called Dreams, the Many

5:12

Lives of Fleetwood Mac by Mark Blake

5:14

that was released this October. And

5:16

there is a new album just

5:18

a few weeks old by Andrew

5:20

Bird and Madison Cunningham that unearths

5:23

the long forgotten recording Buckingham Nicks.

5:26

That's a precursor to Fleetwood Mac. We're going to

5:28

hear from them in the second half. But

5:30

to understand the appeal of Fleetwood Mac, I

5:32

feel like we need to listen to their

5:34

music and arguably two of

5:36

their most important songs. To get us there,

5:39

let's go back to the late 1960s. We're

5:42

in the San Francisco Bay Area where you and I

5:44

started our show. Well, not the 1960s. We

5:47

started in the 2010s, but we're back in the

5:50

1960s. Stay with me. You're

5:52

wearing a flowy scarf. Okay. The

5:54

Potsmoke is wafting over Hade Street. Lindsey

5:56

Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, they're nearby in

5:58

the South Bay. they meet in high

6:01

school they form a musical partnership

6:03

and join a band called the Fritz a

6:06

Romantic relationship ensues they move to LA to make

6:08

it on their own without the band and they

6:10

release an album called Buckingham Knicks in 1973 It's

6:33

a commercial failure but one day

6:35

Mick Fleetwood, drummer of Fleetwood Mac, also

6:38

half named after him, walks into Sound

6:40

City, a storied LA studio and Lindsey

6:43

Buckingham is there. He plays some of his

6:45

tunes for Mick Fleetwood and

6:48

Mick Fleetwood is in need of a

6:50

great guitarist for the band so invites

6:52

Buckingham into the band who also brings

6:55

along Stevie Nicks, his partner, and

6:57

it's not long before this mixed

7:00

nationality, mixed gender band starts

7:02

to fall apart in the making of

7:05

their album Rumors, John

7:07

McVie and Christine McVie's marriage starts to fall

7:09

apart, Mick Fleetwood's got his own marital issues

7:11

and Buckingham and Nick's

7:13

relationship is absolutely deteriorating and

7:17

they write a twin set of breakup

7:19

songs that really go on to define

7:22

this couple and the whole band for decades

7:24

to come. This breakup birds

7:27

the immortal pop songs Go

7:30

Your Own Way written by Buckingham

7:32

and Dreams written by Nicks that serve

7:34

as contrasting musical accounts of their breakup

7:36

Nicks says that they're effectively

7:39

the same song written by

7:41

two different people about the same

7:43

relationship Let's begin with Go Your

7:45

Own Way I've

8:07

heard the song so many times. I

8:09

don't think I've ever thought about the genesis

8:12

of it and the

8:14

sort of extracurricular meaning

8:16

of it, much

8:19

less considered it the other side of

8:21

a coin with dreams. So I'm excited

8:23

to hear these ubiquitous songs in a

8:25

new light. Yeah, I'd always just heard

8:27

this as like an up tempo, guitar

8:30

driven rocker, you know, raw

8:32

emotive vocal, some kind of

8:34

go your own way, break

8:36

up, whatever. But there's

8:38

so much more going on here. And

8:41

where it all begins for me

8:43

is the rhythm of the song. You

8:45

see, Lindsay Buckingham had been listening to

8:47

the Rolling Stones' Street Fighting Man.

8:49

It was inspired by its beat. I

9:06

wouldn't have made the connection, but now I

9:08

hear that both of

9:10

these songs get a lot

9:12

of energy from this rhythmic

9:14

dissonance between the guitar and

9:17

the drums mainly, I think.

9:20

Where the guitar is doing sort of this

9:22

conventional strumming pattern. But

9:26

then the drums are like kind of

9:28

emphasizing these weird off beats that don't

9:30

quite line up. And

9:35

you're like, wait, where is the meter

9:37

of this thing? Yeah, it's all about

9:39

trying to confuse you. You

9:42

don't know where the downbeat of this

9:44

song is. And that's

9:46

exactly what Lindsay Buckingham does in Go

9:48

Your Own Way. So

12:00

there was a Stevie Nicks tambourine

12:02

part that got left on the cutting

12:04

room floor. That's what I'm telling you.

12:06

And instead of actually tracking this thing

12:08

live, this song came together as

12:11

a set of overdubs. Every single

12:13

track is recorded separately. So the

12:15

band only works when each of

12:17

their members is performing in isolation.

12:19

That's a pretty clear metaphor for

12:21

the state of affairs here. But

12:24

it's also interesting because I feel like one of

12:26

the hallmarks of this group

12:28

and one of the reasons they've stood

12:31

the test of time is the sort

12:33

of factory sealed production

12:35

where every musical element is

12:38

so crystalline and

12:40

perfect. And it still sounds so

12:43

like tight and fresh, you know,

12:45

half a century later in a

12:47

way that fractiousness was also part

12:50

of the secret of their success

12:52

in creating this pristine sound. Yeah,

12:55

it took four months and three different

12:57

recording studios to make this track. And

12:59

you could say that, oh, it all

13:01

is a metaphor for the

13:03

band's internal turmoil. Or

13:06

you might say, you know, Lizzie Buckingham

13:08

is a real perfectionist in his production

13:10

and made an absolute smash by working

13:13

it out piece by piece and getting it just right. Nonetheless,

13:16

the fissures in

13:18

the music are present most

13:20

potently, I think, in the lyrics. It's

13:23

not just the lead go your own

13:25

way. It's from the very

13:27

beginning. ["I'm

13:30

Loving You"] Kind

13:56

of accusational here. Loving you's

13:59

not the right thing. aggressive. It's

14:03

like, I could give you my love, but

14:06

you won't take it from me. This is

14:08

a very much a, it's not me, it's you. It's a little

14:10

toxic. And Buckingham really pissed

14:12

off Nix when he put in this line

14:14

in the second verse. Tell

14:30

me why everything turned around,

14:32

packing up, shacking ups, all

14:34

you want to do. So

14:36

essentially saying like, you're not

14:38

committed. You're always leaving

14:41

and sleeping with someone else. Yeah, exactly. It's

14:43

nasty. It's really nasty. Nix would

14:45

say that when he was saying this on stage live,

14:47

because the crazy thing about the band is that it

14:49

keeps on going for taking six. Oh, bananas. You

14:52

should just like seething at him whenever he would

14:54

sing this line. I might be the only person

14:56

in the world to hear this, but I just

14:58

need to put it out in case there's someone

15:00

else out there with this same experience.

15:02

I always thought they were singing, you

15:05

can call it thunder along

15:08

the way instead of another lonely

15:10

day. You can call

15:12

it thunder. And

15:19

it was only until very recently that I

15:21

learned it was something else. Just

15:24

need to know if anyone else had

15:26

that same experience. Please write me. I'm

15:29

sure if Stevie Nix maybe had that

15:31

experience because thunder is an important metaphor

15:33

in her response song, Dreams. I think

15:36

there is no better way to respond

15:38

to anger over a song that so

15:40

maligns you than to write your own

15:42

response song. Sing.

18:00

for Stevie Nicks. She says that she wrote this

18:02

in 10 minutes. She was in a

18:04

studio and needed a

18:06

place to sit and write and

18:08

got access to Sly

18:10

Stone's special room that

18:13

had shag carpeting all over

18:15

the place, a vaulted bed

18:17

with a velvet rope, and

18:20

a fender, Rhodes piano. And

18:25

she was known as not being

18:27

virtuosic on any instrument, but

18:29

she was a very active songwriter.

18:32

And I kind of get, if you're not a

18:34

great pianist, you might sit down and just go

18:36

like, there's a chord, F.

18:39

There's another chord, G. I've

18:41

got my vibe. And

18:43

then it just poured out this

18:45

raw, emotional track. And when she

18:48

brought it to the band, the

18:51

reaction wasn't universally positive.

18:54

Christine said that she thought it

18:56

was boring. By the way,

18:58

critics also agreed when they finally hear the

19:00

song. Rolling Stone said that Dreams is a

19:02

nice but fairly lightweight tune and

19:04

her nasal singing is the only weak

19:06

vocal on the record. Cream

19:08

said that they could lyrically go

19:11

without the meteorology lecture in the

19:13

chorus. That's

19:15

cool. That's savage. This song

19:17

is all about that vocal

19:19

though. In fact, when

19:21

they tracked the song, Nick's

19:24

first recorded a guide vocal. This

19:26

is a very common thing you

19:30

do, just sort of like a scratch vocal so

19:32

that then all the other players can

19:34

play along and then you'll maybe redo

19:37

your main vocal and do harmonies and

19:39

so on. But the scratch vocal

19:41

had all of that just deep

19:43

emotion that they kept the scratch

19:46

vocal as the final thing. So,

20:09

it's intentional, and I think all of

20:11

those little moments of rasp and imperfections

20:13

are what make it so potent. I

20:16

mean, is there a better opening lyric than this?

20:19

Like right away,

20:21

shots fired. If

20:37

you hear this as a twin

20:39

song to go your own way, which

20:41

claimed that, you know, I could give you my

20:44

love but you won't take it. Now she's saying,

20:46

whoa, whoa, whoa, you're the one who's like asking

20:48

for freedom. And by the way, when they were

20:50

in an early relationship in LA and they were

20:52

totally broke trying to make ends meet, she was

20:55

the one waiting table so that he could sit

20:57

at home all day working out his guitar parts.

20:59

Typical. Yeah, right? So shots fired

21:01

from the very beginning. And

21:03

I think you picked up something in the

21:06

chorus as well that is not as maybe

21:08

placid as the song sounds. So

21:10

first of all,

21:13

we have finally

21:18

your thunder that

21:21

you misheard. Thank

21:28

you. There

21:31

it is. I've never completely understood

21:33

the inaccurate metaphor of thunder only happens

21:35

when it's raining because of course there

21:37

can be thunder and lightning without rain.

21:40

Why you sound like cream magazine. No,

21:43

no, no, no, no, no. I think

21:45

mixed metaphors or inaccurate metaphors are totally fine.

21:47

I feel like it's open to interpretation of

21:49

like eruptions of desire

21:51

and love only happen when there's lots of

21:53

emotion pouring out is kind of how I

21:55

hear it. That checks out. But

21:57

then she's like players only love you when

22:00

you're playing like you're only gonna get with

22:02

other players because you're a player or you're

22:04

only loved when you're playing on stage as

22:07

a musician. It may be interesting interpretation. And

22:09

then when you're offstage you're kind of a

22:11

jerk and then this

22:13

is where I feel like the strongest connection

22:15

between the two songs exists is the lyric.

22:33

Say women they will come and they will

22:35

go. She's saying this to Lindsay

22:37

Buckingham who has previously accused Stevie Nicks and

22:40

his song of packing up and shacking up.

22:42

You just want to sleep around. And finally

22:45

when the rain washes you clean you'll

22:47

know, you'll know. And that's

22:49

kind of like after this big emotional

22:51

storm you'll finally realize like you made a

22:53

mistake. This sounds pretty resentful to me at

22:55

this point. I feel like

22:58

this song has more emotional depth

23:01

than go your own

23:03

way because the second verse

23:06

completely alters our experience of

23:08

this seeming resentment. It's

23:12

only me who wants to

23:15

wrap around your dreams and

23:18

have you any dreams

23:20

you'd like

23:27

to sell. It's kind of

23:29

saying like once the rain washes you

23:31

clean I hope you realize like

23:33

I'm still dreaming about you. The

23:35

song is called Dreams but the

23:38

title is buried

23:40

in the second verse. Like

23:43

this could have been called Thunder

23:45

Only Happens When It's Raining. The

23:48

rain washes you clean or

23:50

even what you lost. But she tells

23:52

us that it's actually about a dream.

23:55

She hopes that both these lovers are having

23:57

that like there's still there's still a chance.

24:00

Damn, Charles. Have you shared this theory

24:02

with a 420 doggy face, 88? I've

24:06

not. Stevie Nicks has not been answering my phone calls

24:08

recently. I think that remains

24:10

to be seen then. You pointed out at

24:12

the top of the episode, but one of

24:14

the things that makes them so enduring is

24:17

that Fleetwood Mac has these

24:20

skills of songwriting and production that I think

24:22

still sound very contemporary. In a lot of

24:24

ways, Dreams to me is one of

24:28

the earlier contemporary pop songs. And a

24:30

lot of it has to do with

24:32

the fact that it is just a

24:34

loop. It is these two chords,

24:36

F to G, back and forth, never resolving.

24:38

This is a very common way of writing

24:41

today. Getting in a room with a computer,

24:43

setting up a little loop, two or four

24:45

chords, and writing as many melodies

24:47

against that as you can until

24:49

you get a whole song. We

24:52

call that process top lining, right? And

24:55

that's kind of what's happening in Dreams.

24:57

In fact, Dreams is a loop. They

24:59

literally looped Mick Fleetwood's drum part to

25:02

make it more hypnotic. It's a tape

25:04

loop, an actual tape loop going around

25:06

and around. Yeah. And

25:09

they build each section so that

25:11

it feels completely independent, even though

25:14

the harmony is so simple underneath. You

25:16

start in the intro and verse. Drums,

25:20

bass, guitar flying

25:22

all around, roads,

25:25

piano. You move into

25:27

the pre-chorus. We add harmonies. The

25:32

keyboard starts climbing up to a higher octave, arpeggiated

25:35

guitars, and vibes.

25:40

That is a contemporary pop production

25:42

to me. That's a

25:44

connection to our modern musical

25:47

landscape that I wouldn't have made, Charles.

25:50

But one that I could

25:52

do is the fact that

25:54

something we talk about a lot in this podcast

25:56

is how much

25:58

pop artists today. they mind

26:01

their personal lives for their

26:03

musical material. And

26:05

I feel like now listening to this track, I'm

26:07

like, did Fleetwood Mac kind of

26:09

start that? I

26:12

did want to sort of dig through the

26:14

history on this topic because obviously people have

26:16

always used their personal lives as source material

26:19

for music. Like literally 11th century

26:21

tubadors used to write about courtly romances

26:24

and the scandals that were happening at

26:26

court. Lord Byron in

26:28

the 19th century, the poet famously

26:31

wrote about his scandalous love affairs.

26:34

Edith Piaf had famous relationships that ended

26:36

up in her songs. Joni Mitchell, John

26:39

Lennon, Yoko Ono, Marvin Gaye had an

26:41

album about divorce. But the

26:43

thing about Fleetwood Mac is that

26:45

they take it to another level,

26:47

right? This is not one relationship.

26:50

This is so many relationships. Buckingham,

26:52

Nix, McFleetwood getting divorced. John

26:54

and Christine McVie, McFleetwood having a

26:56

relationship with Stevie Nix and like 17 other

26:58

people. They're all getting

27:00

together, all breaking up, and they're all

27:02

writing songs and performing about those songs

27:04

and making it their identity in a

27:07

way that contemporary artists do too. Like

27:09

Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears laying

27:11

their relationship out in music. I

27:14

feel so small, I guess

27:17

I need you, baby. Tell

27:21

me you love me, why did

27:23

you leave me all alone? There's

27:26

Beyonce and Jay-Z hashing out their marital

27:28

issues in their music. You better call

27:30

Ricky with the good hand. I

27:33

stood over, what if you

27:36

over my shit? Live

27:38

Your Order, Rigo and Sabrina Carpenter

27:41

detailing their inner lives with celebrity

27:43

boyfriends for fans to pick apart

27:45

and try to find all the

27:47

clues to see what's really going

27:49

on in their personal lives. And

27:52

you're probably with that blonde girl

27:55

who always made me doubt.

27:57

Maybe you didn't mean it.

28:00

Baby Blonde was the only rhyme.

28:03

So Fleetwood Mac, not the inventors of

28:05

this approach of personal songwriting,

28:07

but maybe they perfected

28:10

a certain aspect of it. They

28:12

perfected it. They took it to a

28:14

whole new level. And if you really

28:16

want to understand where it all began,

28:19

you have to go back to that

28:21

long out of print early recording by

28:23

Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks before they

28:25

joined Fleetwood Mac. Their album, Buckingham Nicks,

28:27

released in 1973, failed

28:30

to chart in its time. But it

28:32

has huge cult status amongst fans that

28:35

can still find old vinyl imprints of

28:37

it. Hmm. Look around, but

28:39

you won't see me. Just

28:42

a picture of what I used to be.

28:45

And there ain't nothing to set

28:47

me free without a lady just

28:49

standing on. But

28:52

you know that I can't let go.

28:54

You cannot find that recording on

28:56

streaming services. You can't even find

28:58

it on CD. What? I

29:01

know. That is until just

29:03

a few weeks ago, the musicians

29:05

Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham collaborated

29:08

on a new project called

29:10

Cunningham Bird, like Buckingham

29:13

Nicks. It is a

29:15

track by track interpretation of

29:17

the Buckingham Nicks album. And it

29:19

features exceptional arrangements

29:22

and harmonies. Look

29:25

around, but you won't see me. Just

29:28

a picture of what I used to be.

29:30

Provides a whole fresh perspective on

29:33

Buckingham and Nicks' early musical partnership

29:35

and their creative dynamic before the

29:37

Fleetwood Mac days. After

29:39

the break, you're going to hear from

29:42

Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham about

29:44

that storied lost album.

29:47

Support for Switched on Pop is brought to you

29:49

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feature Bose as a registered trademark of the

30:32

Bose Corporation. Before

30:44

joining Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey Buckingham and

30:46

Stevie Nicks were young lovers and

30:48

musical partners struggling to make ends

30:50

meet in Los Angeles while recording

30:52

their debut album Buckingham Nicks. It's

31:05

long been unavailable. That is

31:08

until 2024 when Andrew Bird and

31:10

Madison Cunningham revived this cult classic

31:12

in an interpretation of songs that

31:15

they're calling Cunningham Bird. Madison

31:24

Cunningham is a Grammy

31:26

award-winning musician known for

31:28

her sophisticated guitar finger

31:30

picking and her intricate

31:32

lyrical compositions. And Cunningham

31:34

sings alongside her longtime

31:37

friend and collaborator Andrew

31:39

Bird, a virtuosic multi-instrumentalist

31:41

known for his creative

31:43

violin playing, whistling, and

31:45

plaintive voice. I

31:47

think their update to this long stashed

31:49

away recording has a lot to tell

31:51

us about the influence of Fleetwood Mac

31:54

and the complex creative partnership

31:56

in the Buckingham Nicks software.

31:59

I'm Madison Cunningham.

32:02

I'm Andrew Bird, and

32:04

we are in my backyard

32:06

in Los Angeles. And we

32:08

just released an album called Cunningham. Bird. You

32:12

have recorded this album together, an adaptation

32:14

of Buckingham Nix. That

32:18

album is sort of this like lost album that

32:20

presages Fleetwood Mac. Could

32:23

you share a little bit about the story of what that record is?

32:26

Yeah. It's that record

32:28

you find in a garage sale

32:30

or like a used

32:32

record store, and everyone knows the

32:34

cover of them

32:36

topless on the cover and

32:39

looking impossibly beautiful and

32:41

airbrushed and all. And it was

32:45

a very ambitious record that the two

32:47

of them made when they were together,

32:49

Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nix. It's

32:52

got a lot of songs. It kind of hinted what's to

32:54

come with Fleetwood Mac. But not

32:56

many people know the music. There's

33:01

not a single measure on this

33:03

album that's not trying to impress you with

33:05

some interesting studio move

33:09

or something, you know, with lots and lots of drum

33:12

fills and drum pushes and

33:14

syncopations. And you can take the bones of

33:16

all these songs and like strip

33:20

them back. And as we say, pull

33:22

up the shaggy carpeting and kind of see

33:25

what kind of space there is and find the

33:27

room and the songs are

33:29

there. It was just the way the production

33:32

was in 73 was a little, you know,

33:34

heavy handed perhaps. But

33:38

she'll leave you crying in

33:40

the night. She

33:43

will leave you crying

33:46

in the night. Oh, she'll

33:48

leave you crying in the

33:50

night. She's back in. I

33:55

identify with it in the sense of like they're young. I

33:57

remember when I was making my first album, making

34:00

albums in my twenties. I tried to

34:02

throw every interesting thing I could

34:04

into every square inch of the album. I relate to

34:06

that too in a lot of ways. I feel like

34:09

I've just recently kind of grown out of

34:11

the like, I don't want to play every

34:13

chord and I want music to kind of

34:15

feel easy. Madison, is there a song

34:17

in this record for you which really captures

34:20

that youthful quality?

34:22

Yeah, the first song that really

34:24

grabbed my attention was Long Distance Winner. I

34:27

come running down the

34:29

hill, you're fast,

34:31

you're the winner. Long

34:37

distance winner.

34:39

And I actually felt like that was the song that sounded immediately

34:41

a little bit, most like something that

34:43

you and I would have maybe written

34:46

just in terms of like those first

34:48

three chords of that song. I

34:52

mean, we were honestly

34:54

trying to figure out like how playful to

34:56

be while we were making it. Like, how

34:59

far could we take this? Could we refurbish

35:01

this melody and put it here? And you

35:03

know, like it was like finally like got

35:05

to a place where we found the marriage

35:08

between the complexity that we enjoy and the

35:10

simplicity that is so important to like exposing

35:12

the heart. I

35:15

come running down the hill, you're

35:17

fast, you're the winner. Long

35:23

distance winner. One

35:26

of the songs that really stood out to me

35:28

is having that sort of youthful ambition, throwing everything

35:30

you've got at it is

35:32

their song Without a Leg to Stand

35:35

On. But you know

35:37

that I can't let go and

35:40

there ain't nothing left to show. I've

35:43

got the feeling I can't say

35:45

no without a leg to stand

35:48

on. The

35:50

chorus is just so syncopated and

35:52

challenging to sing and

35:54

yet you sort of found this new

35:57

way into it. But

36:00

you know that I can't let go And

36:04

there ain't nothing left to

36:06

show Got the feeling I

36:08

can't say Don't say no

36:11

Without a lane to

36:13

stand on How

36:17

did you go about wanting to adapt

36:19

these songs, both honoring the nostalgia that

36:21

people have for Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham

36:23

and Nix, and yet also make it

36:25

fresh? I had studied the album more

36:27

than Madison. Before we went into the

36:30

studio, and that leg to stand on

36:33

has those pushes I'm talking about.

36:36

And you know that I can't let go,

36:38

boom. Like, go boom. But you know that

36:40

I can't let go. That kind of stuff.

36:42

And I couldn't let go of that for

36:44

a while. I just didn't want to let

36:46

go of that push because it just felt,

36:48

it was physically in my bones

36:50

already. Madison was just kind of, But you know that

36:52

I can't let go. Just

36:56

kind of kept not doing

36:58

that push until I finally, remember

37:00

one time we were doing it, I just did it

37:02

despite you. Just kind of, but- As

37:05

the one time we fought in the studio, he

37:07

spied me with a push. Yeah, it

37:10

was- Rough. It

37:12

was rough. But then, yeah, that was

37:14

the first one that came together. We

37:16

were like, oh, this

37:18

is something else entirely. And that song

37:20

in particular felt like, like

37:23

maybe we unlocked the sort of sweet tooth

37:26

pop song that was in there. What was it? I

37:28

think what the pushes did was it kept feeling like

37:31

it would just be these like weird sort of like,

37:33

sort of like breaks in the flow. And I think

37:35

what we ended up finding was this constant movement in

37:37

that song. And I really love when songs do that,

37:39

when they still like ebb and flow dynamically, but they

37:42

never stop rolling. And you feel like you're

37:44

on some sort of like a track

37:46

or a ride or something. And that

37:48

song, it feels like, like every

37:51

time I hear, I imagine them like

37:53

riding in the back of a carriage

37:55

of horses, like through the, through the

37:57

prairie, just continuing to move. Look

38:00

around but you won't see me Just

38:03

a picture of what I used to be

38:06

There ain't nothing to say Say

38:08

me me me me me me

38:10

Working on any material that is

38:12

Fleetwood Mac related is necessarily

38:16

in relationship to their

38:18

complex relationships. Buckyham

38:20

and Nyx were young teenage lovers, they

38:23

make this album together, famous

38:25

breakups, love affairs, all of this is a

38:27

big part of the band. How

38:29

did approaching this

38:31

material affect your

38:33

own collaboration and your

38:35

own artistic partnership? How do you

38:38

go about approaching these songs about

38:40

teenage lovers at a

38:42

different point in history between two very

38:44

different people where you're often flipping genders

38:47

on these records? Yeah, and you said it

38:49

well that a different point in history is

38:51

a key line because it's like they were

38:54

coming out of the 60s where

38:56

guys referred to their girlfriends as their

38:58

old ladies. And then the 70s guitar

39:00

god McKesmo and gypsy woman, gypsy lady,

39:08

I was like that stuff

39:11

doesn't really speak to us

39:14

now. And

39:18

so we thought

39:20

about just flipping everything gender

39:22

wise. But that didn't really

39:25

stand up. We had to take it one tune

39:27

at a time. But definitely Lola

39:29

My Love was one that made sense

39:31

to flip because neither

39:33

of us could quite stomach singing

39:35

that as is. Yeah,

39:55

Lola My Love is kind of a horny

39:57

70 guy. Blues,

40:00

rock. Absolutely. And... We

40:04

were, we, you know, we did things mostly in

40:06

order and as we got towards the end of

40:08

the album, both those tunes, I

40:10

think, Frozen Love are like, pretty

40:13

weird. It almost broke me.

40:16

Yeah, both those, both those songs, we were just

40:18

like, thank God they're at the end, like, or

40:20

we just, we kept putting them off cause we

40:22

didn't know how to handle them.

40:25

Then again, both of them turned out like, we're

40:28

really happy with them. Lola,

40:30

my love, you

40:33

know how to treat your man.

40:42

Lola, my love,

40:45

you do everything a woman

40:47

can. There's

40:50

one of my favorite songs on the record, actually, which I

40:52

think there's something to be said about that, like, there's

40:55

the most like trepidation and the most like work

40:58

that it took to get them to a

41:00

place that felt relevant. And

41:03

I think it paid off in some way, but yeah,

41:05

I mean, I

41:07

don't know, I'm actually curious, Andrew, how you

41:09

ended up emotionally relating to the songs. I

41:11

know for myself, I just, there

41:14

was a lot of like personal things I was going

41:16

through that kind of started to reflect what some of

41:18

the lyrics were saying. And previously

41:20

before that, I hadn't really been attached to

41:22

the lyrics at all. And kind of in

41:25

the middle of recording, I

41:27

was like finding myself really

41:30

resonating and becoming very attached to these

41:32

songs and just us singing them too. Like that

41:34

one song, Don't Let Me Down Again, I love

41:36

singing that one. Cause it's just like, you get

41:38

to just put all of your

41:40

anger into a lyric

41:43

like that. Baby,

41:45

baby, don't treat me

41:47

this way. We're

41:50

gonna make it again someday. You

41:53

were definitely going through something. I

41:56

was more just worried about getting sued. You

42:00

were going through something too. I guess so. I mean, I was

42:02

just trying to like, just trying to relax

42:04

into it and not, and I was

42:06

the whole time, I was like wondering, why are we doing this? What? And

42:09

it's so tricky because we couldn't rewrite any lyrics.

42:12

So our moves were pretty few. They

42:14

were really important as to what they were gonna be.

42:16

Yeah. This is obviously not

42:18

a Fleetwood Mac approved

42:21

project. It doesn't need to be. No.

42:24

You can get mechanical licenses to record covers of

42:26

any album, I believe. So

42:28

was there concern of like, there's a few

42:30

changes of pronouns by changing lyrics. It's like

42:32

its own thing. And that

42:34

Fleetwood Mac would like, not be happy with this

42:36

project. We just didn't quite know

42:39

why it was out of print. Yeah, it made

42:41

us made a suspicious as

42:43

to why you couldn't, like a

42:45

major record that could get

42:48

a lot of attention, at least

42:50

not at the moment, but in retrospect,

42:52

why you can't hear it, you can't

42:55

stream it. What'd you learn in the

42:57

process? Absolutely

42:59

nothing. I mean, I learned

43:03

that there's some very vague legal

43:05

language that made me a little nervous. That's

43:08

all, but it's all good. It's all good.

43:10

So far, so far, so good. I

43:13

mean, you are allowed to cover whatever

43:15

you want without getting the approval. I

43:17

just heard anecdotally that getting

43:20

the blessing of Stevie

43:22

or Lindsay has not always gone so well in

43:24

the past for some people. That's

43:26

all. Yes, it's a group of

43:28

covers, but this is an interpretation on this

43:30

record. You have completely made it in your

43:33

own image. And one of the things

43:35

that really stands out is that your

43:38

sound palette as musicians

43:40

almost leans in the exact opposite direction

43:43

as Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks,

43:46

that the guitar sound,

43:48

for example, Lindsay Buckingham's guitars

43:51

are often triple tracked, super bright,

43:53

taking over the entire mix. And,

44:01

Madison, your guitar is deep

44:04

and low and

44:06

plucky and a little bit more

44:08

removed. There's

44:16

some really lovely violin parts

44:18

that I think bring this record to

44:20

life, for example, on Crying in the

44:23

Night, which is a sort of

44:25

blamey song as originally

44:28

recorded. I

44:35

think you really sort of change the feeling of it

44:37

and make it feel more like a lament. You

44:40

know, it kind of saying, oh, there's this girl, she's around

44:42

town, she's going to loop you in, but she's going to

44:44

go and chase some other guys and she's going to break

44:46

your heart. And I think

44:49

you lean into the broken heart more, especially

44:51

with this feeling of crying in the night,

44:53

your violin soars these high notes that really

44:55

sort of text paint the lyric. Okay, that's

44:57

good to hear. That's sick. It

45:01

went in this

45:04

sort of what we

45:07

call posh, we're calling

45:10

it posh direction with

45:12

the kind of

45:19

dun, dun, dun, dun. I

45:22

was worried that it had strayed from what

45:25

the song really was, which is a song

45:28

warning this guy about the town of

45:30

Luzzi. I feel

45:34

like that warning, I would imagine,

45:36

has to come from a softer place, you

45:38

know, than like, don't you fuck it? I

45:40

mean, I don't know. It's probably more

45:42

effective if it comes from a posh place.

45:46

This is one of the ways that I feel like the record

45:48

has changed a lot. And

45:50

I actually have the pleasure of having experienced Buckingham

45:53

Nick's first through the two of you. I

45:56

saw you perform the album

45:58

live and full. at Newport

46:00

Folk this year, it was a total delight. I

46:03

had never heard the songs, and

46:05

then I eventually went and found a YouTube stream and

46:07

I listened to the original, and I have gone back

46:09

and listened to theirs and yours back and

46:11

forth and back and forth. I

46:14

prefer the updated version. But part of the

46:16

reason why is I think that we get

46:18

so much more relationship, I think, in the

46:20

framing of Buckingham Nix. It really does lead

46:23

with Buckingham in so many ways. I think

46:25

on a lot of the records, Nix does

46:27

feel a little bit like a, and Nix.

46:30

And here, not only have you switched it,

46:33

because it seems like your names were just destined to

46:36

create this record, kind of, but it flips

46:38

the gender dynamic in the title, and

46:40

you really split duties throughout the

46:42

entire thing. This feels like a really natural collaboration.

46:44

And so I want to go back to a

46:47

question that we probably

46:49

unintentionally evaded, which is, how

46:51

has it altered, you know, this album about relationships,

46:54

this very famous relationship, how has it changed

46:56

your creative collaboration? Working on

46:58

this record reminded me so much of,

47:00

like, oh, what I do love so

47:02

much about music, though, is simplicity. Like,

47:05

and really getting over all of my, like, you

47:08

know, crushes of, like, oh, my God, like, what

47:11

about, we play five chords here,

47:13

you know, it's like, I'm really getting to a

47:15

place where I just don't, I listen to music

47:17

so differently, and what I want from it is

47:19

so different than what it was even,

47:21

like, two years ago. But I also

47:23

learned, in making this record, I heard

47:25

things come out in Madison's voice that

47:27

I hadn't heard before, like, on Crystal.

47:30

Do you always

47:34

trust your first

47:37

initial feeling?

47:40

Like, a really deep, deep

47:43

sadness. Special

47:45

knowledge holds

47:48

truth like

47:52

a different tone in your voice, and

47:55

it was really emotional. Especially, I think Crystal is

47:57

the one that kind of embodies it,

47:59

like, I have love. I haven't heard that yet

48:02

on your albums yet. And

48:06

it was really like, whoa, that's

48:08

something else. No one's gonna be comparing

48:11

you to Joni Mitchell anymore, hopefully. I

48:13

hope not. Final

48:15

question for you all. What is

48:17

the enduring appeal of Fleetwood Mac?

48:20

I mean, with most stuff, I

48:24

mean great melodic songwriting, but

48:26

this album also

48:29

is very interesting because it's all there. The

48:31

whole dynamic between Stevie

48:33

and Lindsay is

48:35

became very clear as we're working on it.

48:38

And Lindsay's like, I'm gonna go

48:41

conquer the world and you

48:44

can come along if you like, but you're gonna have to

48:46

like really step it up, okay? You

48:49

may not be as strong

48:51

as me and

48:55

I may not care to teach you.

49:00

And her songs are like, and

49:02

you love only the tallest trees. It's

49:17

like a conversation, it's an argument between two

49:19

lovers. It's like, you just

49:22

appreciate like big

49:24

phallic things. And so she's like trying

49:26

to cut them down to a human

49:29

size. But

49:33

then she's talking about a lot of

49:35

water and crystals. And

49:39

together they make up like the

49:41

full range of

49:44

how you can live in this world. That's well said.

49:46

That's and how about for you? What is the enduring

49:48

appeal of Fleetwood Mac? Why are they having such a

49:50

renaissance and just keep on igniting

49:52

new generations? It seems like they are, like

49:54

you said, like they're a counterweight to each

49:56

other. And I think that is

49:58

always a powerful force. It's like, two things

50:00

that, and obviously in Fleetwood Mac

50:02

was many things, but I think obviously Stevie

50:06

and Lindsey kind of

50:08

being like at the forefront.

50:10

I think Stevie is also

50:12

just like an unforgettable voice. Like

50:15

nobody sounds like her and nobody can

50:18

really, and some of their songs, like

50:20

I just heard Dreams the other night

50:22

and I jokingly said, oh, not Dreams

50:24

again. But

50:33

as the song played, I talk

50:36

about a two chord song that isn't

50:39

boring and like still has

50:41

arc and dynamic. And I think they really

50:43

found something that is

50:45

like, they found what it means to be classic

50:48

and not everybody does that. I

50:51

think that's why they're still

50:54

just like in our

50:56

pop culture and in our like, you

50:58

know, in our relevance.

51:00

My headline is that

51:04

they figured out what it actually means

51:06

to remain timeless. Yeah. Will we

51:08

get a bonus edition with Dreams and Go Your

51:10

Own Way? No, I don't think you'll ever be.

51:12

No. But if it's a Christmas

51:14

version, yes. Like

51:16

with sleigh bells or something. Sure. It's

51:19

a really cool collaboration. I don't

51:21

think I know another album where

51:23

I prefer the interpretation, but

51:26

this is something really special. Congratulations

51:29

on it. It's really delightful.

51:31

Thank you. Thanks for saying that. Switched

51:36

on Pop is produced by Brianna Cruz,

51:38

engineered by Brandon McFarlane, edited by Art

51:40

Chung, illustrations by Ara Scott. We are

51:42

a member of the Vox Media Podcast

51:45

Network and a production of Vulture, which

51:47

is part of New York Magazine. Subscribe

51:49

at nymag.com/pop. Find us on

51:51

social media at Switched on Pop. We

51:54

only got to talk really in depth

51:57

about two Fleetwood Mac songs today. So.

52:00

We want to hear about like what are the

52:02

other important songs in their

52:04

catalog that help us understand The

52:07

iconic sound of this band so you know

52:09

what to do Sound off

52:11

in the comments. We're gonna be back next

52:13

week with a special limited series Called

52:16

listening to Madonna So

52:19

excited brought to us by a great

52:21

producer Rihanna Cruz. It's gonna run Monday

52:23

Wednesday and Friday Mwf

52:26

baby the week of Thanksgiving

52:28

listening to Madonna. It's gonna be

52:30

such a blast. We'll see you there and

52:33

until then Thanks for listening Support

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