0:01

Skills is really

0:03

hard. It's really early. It's really messy.

0:06

But it is better than any other way to

0:08

judge potential and applicants if you're trying

0:10

to build a business that will succeed with

0:13

agility in the age of AI. Consistently,

0:16

CEOs tell us that the skills that

0:18

are in most demand are those in a

0:20

human skills, problem-solving, critical

0:23

thinking, collaboration, networking,

0:25

leadership.

0:26

They're really hard to train and they're

0:29

really hard to find. I would encourage everyone

0:31

not to see skills as the change that they

0:33

have to react to, but skills as the tool with

0:35

which they can react to all these changes that

0:38

are playing out right now.

0:39

From PwC's management

0:41

publication, Strategy in Business, this

0:44

is Take On Tomorrow, the podcast that

0:46

brings together experts from around the globe

0:48

to figure out what business could and should

0:51

be doing to tackle some of the biggest issues

0:53

facing the world. I'm Ayesha

0:55

Hazarika, a broadcaster and writer

0:57

in London. And I'm Lizzie O'Leary, a

0:59

podcaster and journalist in New York. Today,

1:02

we're talking all about the workforce and

1:04

in particular, what workers need to be

1:06

able to do to succeed in the future.

1:09

Can

1:09

traditional ways of hiring find

1:11

the right workers to get the job done?

1:14

Or are businesses missing out on talent

1:16

that is out there and leaving workers

1:18

behind in the process? What

1:21

kind of change is needed to find

1:23

the right talent? To find out more,

1:25

we'll be talking to Anish Raman, LinkedIn

1:28

Vice President, and a powerful advocate

1:30

for skills-based hiring. He

1:33

sees the benefits for workforce and business.

1:36

But first, we're joined by Pete Brown,

1:38

PwC's

1:39

global workforce leader. Pete,

1:42

welcome back to the show. It's great to have you. Thank

1:44

you for inviting me. Now, Pete,

1:46

let's start by digging into

1:48

what your clients are telling you. What

1:50

are CEOs' top concerns right

1:53

now when it comes to their workforce? Well,

1:55

we survey CEOs every

1:58

year in the PwC CEO CEO survey,

2:01

some 40% of CEOs are saying that actually,

2:03

unless they transform, they

2:05

will not be economically viable in 10 years'

2:07

time. So I think focus

2:10

on getting the right talent, the

2:12

right skilled people into an organization is

2:14

key. Because at the end of the day, organizations

2:17

undergoing transformation require

2:19

a motivated, empowered workforce

2:22

to deliver against that strategy. And

2:25

right now, we know that over half of CEOs

2:28

state that finding that talent and that skilled

2:30

workforce is in their top three

2:32

priorities.

2:33

It's been such a turbulent few years.

2:36

We've had the COVID-19 pandemic. The

2:38

economy is incredibly uncertain at

2:40

the moment. What would you say are

2:42

the biggest concerns facing the workforce

2:45

right now?

2:47

Now, it goes without saying, and it's very consistent,

2:49

that workers want fair pay. There's

2:52

a whole number of other things that's

2:54

on their minds. They want to work for an organization

2:57

that gives them meaningful work, an organization

2:59

that's investing in their skilling, not

3:01

just as somebody in an organization,

3:03

but actually as a human being in society, such

3:06

that they remain relevant in the

3:08

world of work. They want leaders

3:10

that listen to their point of view, embrace their ideas.

3:13

They want to work for an organization that has a

3:15

clear purpose beyond just generating

3:17

a financial return that's inclusive

3:20

and diverse. And I think that's a real challenge

3:22

for employers because they've got to get

3:24

all those things right, because if they don't,

3:27

then workers will look for somewhere where

3:29

those variables, if you like, are addressed. Pete

3:32

will come back to you to explore that in more detail.

3:35

But first, Ayesha, you interviewed Anish

3:37

Raman. He's VP at LinkedIn. Yeah,

3:40

Anish is also head of an initiative at

3:42

LinkedIn called the Opportunity

3:44

Project, which has some really ambitious

3:47

aims. But a key strategy within

3:49

that is to develop and enable

3:51

skills-based hiring. Here's how

3:53

he described their approach.

3:55

of

4:00

the global workforce, every member, not

4:02

some, every. So to do that,

4:04

we think a lot about how to create more dynamism,

4:07

more transparency, more equity in the

4:09

system around economic opportunity,

4:12

which is the labor market. To me, the

4:14

labor market has always been broken. If

4:16

you judge it by how effectively it has matched

4:18

talent and opportunity. For most

4:20

of human history, people inherited work

4:23

from their parents. What your parents did, you did,

4:25

almost like the genes that determined your height. That's

4:28

not efficient. That's not equal. Only

4:31

for a couple of hundred years, we've had industrial

4:33

revolutions that have created all these new ways

4:35

of work. And over time, we've assigned

4:38

higher education, the task of creating mobility.

4:40

So that no matter where you started in life, through

4:43

the right education, you can access all of these

4:45

new opportunities. That model

4:47

is facing a lot of challenges. Not

4:50

least of which is the speed with which work

4:52

is changing because of technological advances.

4:55

And the limits that places on curriculum

4:57

development to deliver curriculum that leads

4:59

to employable skills. In some countries,

5:01

you also have this added pressure of the cost

5:04

of getting a degree and whether that cost is gonna

5:06

pan out in terms of the earnings you'll get with

5:08

that degree. So that's where skills-based

5:11

hiring comes in. I would think

5:13

about skills-based hiring as transparency.

5:16

What is a transparent way for

5:18

me to know if I have the skills that

5:20

this employer needs or for the employer to know if

5:23

I have the skills that this job needs?

5:25

How do you think both employers

5:28

and employees are

5:31

reacting to this new idea

5:33

of a skills-based approach?

5:34

Employees are really the driving force

5:36

of change in two ways. One,

5:39

members on LinkedIn are starting to define

5:41

themselves by their skills because

5:43

it gives them more agency and more control

5:45

over their story itself. So we're seeing hundreds

5:48

of millions of skills added year over year on

5:50

LinkedIn on members' profiles

5:52

where they are contextualizing skills. They're not

5:54

just saying I'm good at X or Y. They're saying in

5:56

this job, these are the skills that

5:58

I used the deliverables that

6:01

came about as a result. You also have

6:03

Gen Z rising into the

6:05

global labor market. I think a third of the labor

6:07

market by end of the decade. And they

6:09

are looking not just for stability

6:12

and pay and pensions, they're looking more for

6:14

flexibility and the ability to move

6:16

across jobs and functions that is only

6:19

possible with a skills first mindset. So

6:21

between those two sort of driving

6:23

forces, employers are recognizing this is

6:25

something that we've got to do to meet employees

6:28

where they're at. And really now the question is, well,

6:30

how do I implement this? A lot of employers

6:32

are realizing there are two choices. Do the hard

6:34

work now for it to be easy later or

6:36

stick with the easy ways now and it's gonna

6:38

get hard later. Skills is really hard.

6:41

It's really early, it's really messy, but

6:43

it is better than any other way to judge

6:45

potential and applicants if you're trying to build

6:48

a business that will succeed with agility

6:50

in the age of AI.

6:51

Yeah, and we know that talent is everywhere, but

6:53

opportunity is not.

6:55

And I think the key thing there is when you use

6:57

degrees as a filter, which again, degrees

6:59

have value, they signal certain skills, but

7:02

that is a fixed number as we

7:04

know, both because of the cost and issues

7:06

around access in the US

7:09

communities of color, the majority do

7:11

not have a degree for all sorts of

7:13

reasons. And so part of that

7:15

recognition, the talent is everywhere and opportunity

7:18

is not, is that the ways that we have been mining

7:20

for talent have self-selected

7:22

out large, if not majorities

7:25

of communities from accessing opportunity.

7:27

Now, Anish, looking back on

7:30

your own really illustrious career,

7:33

you have studied government at

7:36

Harvard, you've moved in

7:38

these incredible circles, you've worked

7:40

for Barack Obama and the White House, you've

7:43

been the upper echelons of CNN. Many

7:45

people would kind of think, having Harvard

7:48

on your resume like you do means you don't

7:50

have to worry about specific skills,

7:52

it's your calling card. What makes

7:55

you so passionate about this

7:57

skills first approach and wanting to... spread

8:00

it out to people.

8:01

As you mentioned, I do have these sort

8:03

of good, brand, interesting

8:05

experiences on my resume. So

8:08

as I got further and further in my career, I

8:10

could always get a call with someone as I was looking

8:13

for new opportunities, because they were like, this is interesting.

8:15

But over time, I grew more and more insecure

8:19

about how I would explain all of those

8:21

experiences in a clear and concise

8:23

way in terms of what value I could bring

8:25

to an organization. And this is where skills

8:28

first reset everything. Now,

8:30

what I say about who I am is, I'm someone

8:32

who across my entire career has

8:35

developed a core skill around explanatory

8:37

storytelling. That was true when I was a reporter,

8:39

when I was a speechwriter in all my growth roles,

8:42

in all my campaign roles. I've

8:44

added to that over time, this skill set around coalition

8:47

building, taking that story and being able to

8:49

engage others so that they're spreading that story,

8:51

ultimately to change beliefs and behaviors at scale.

8:55

And in the past decade, I have assigned

8:57

that skill set an issue, an area

8:59

of expertise, which is economic opportunity.

9:02

So now it all makes sense. And

9:04

it's all really easy for me to explain

9:06

them for others to get.

9:07

Let's move on to looking

9:10

at employers in this skills

9:12

first approach. Can you have both

9:14

a skills-based approach as

9:16

well as considering someone's

9:19

degree, past job titles, et

9:21

cetera?

9:22

I think you can and you must. It isn't

9:24

degree versus skills. What employers need is

9:26

a way to have those skills credentialed.

9:29

Work experience is a way. Certificates

9:32

that people are getting for different courses they're taking

9:34

is a way. And then it'll depend on the employer,

9:36

both in terms of sector and size, to weight the

9:39

credentials and to weight what they think

9:41

is the more efficient signal

9:43

of skills. And in some cases, it'll be degrees.

9:45

In some cases, it'll be certificates. In some cases,

9:48

it'll be work experience. Apprenticeships is an example.

9:51

And skills lives underneath credentials.

9:54

And in the credential level, degrees

9:56

are the most established. But the

9:58

push for employers is don't let them be. the only

10:00

gateway.

10:01

When it comes to looking at this from

10:03

the other end with workers, what kind

10:05

of workers, what kind of human beings

10:07

will benefit from this new approach?

10:09

Everyone who in this moment of

10:11

just persistent, relentless, upending

10:14

change wants to feel more controlled over

10:16

their life, they will benefit from this because

10:19

they will not be defined by other things.

10:21

They will be defined on their terms by the skills

10:24

they have, especially as we enter the age of AI

10:26

and the importance of people skills rising.

10:28

Everyone who is a person has people skills

10:31

to build from one level outside of that,

10:33

it goes back to kind of the history of work. And

10:35

I think it will really benefit

10:37

communities who have been historically marginalized,

10:40

because again, there are so many

10:42

ways to think about skills and to credential

10:44

skills. I'll give you one example. On LinkedIn,

10:46

we have taken dyslexia and

10:49

turned it into a skill. It is literally a skill

10:51

that hires can filter for because

10:54

we have told the story of dyslexics

10:56

as one where they have these unique skills and

10:58

traits that are incredibly valuable in

11:01

certain roles. Now, some

11:02

smaller business leaders may

11:05

be listening to our conversation and thinking,

11:07

this all sounds great, but

11:10

it sounds like something for big

11:13

corporations, big organizations

11:16

with specific dedicated HR

11:18

departments, HR budgets.

11:21

Can this approach apply across

11:24

all sizes of businesses?

11:25

What's interesting is I think it is easiest

11:28

to get going the smaller you are. A,

11:30

you have tremendous urgency

11:32

to hire well. When I

11:34

was at a startup, the amount

11:37

of attention and diligence we

11:39

did on hiring was extreme because the

11:41

smaller you are, the more one employee

11:44

can affect where you go. And

11:46

then a lot of what companies

11:48

need to do is easier to do at smaller scale.

11:50

You've got to make this a C-suite priority,

11:53

a leadership priority. You've got to start

11:55

somewhere. Like you just got to zero

11:57

in on one department, on one practice and

11:59

just. begin thinking differently about

12:02

how you hire, how you train. So it's actually

12:05

the bigger companies where this is hardest,

12:07

because they are now having to think about

12:09

changing beliefs and behaviors at scale

12:11

at once. And

12:12

when you look across different sectors

12:15

or different countries, can

12:18

you identify and give us some suggestions,

12:20

who do you think is going to really take advantage of this in

12:22

the future?

12:23

India is an example of a country that

12:25

is fully incentivized to do this because

12:27

India is home now to the world's biggest population.

12:30

It's home now to the world's biggest Gen Z population.

12:32

It's now the fifth largest economy in the world and wants

12:35

to keep rising. But in order to keep

12:37

rising, it needs to build inclusive growth.

12:39

If India doesn't have inclusive growth,

12:42

it will likely fall back down. So then what

12:44

that does is it creates a lot of energy around

12:46

public-private partnerships, governments and

12:48

employers talking to each other, really

12:50

getting specific about what are you hiring for?

12:53

What skills do you need? How do we make sure that people

12:55

have access to education that will get them

12:57

those skills? Skills is an

12:59

everyday conversation there. Because if you remember

13:01

too in India, when that outsourcing boom happened,

13:04

no colleges were teaching customer support.

13:07

So employers had to get out there and create curriculum

13:10

to fill those jobs that were suddenly appearing

13:13

in India. So there is a history too of employer

13:15

as educator, an employer working with state

13:18

governments and city governments to

13:20

build pipelines into employment. It's

13:22

happening in Brazil and all the developing

13:24

countries, the countries that are looking to rise, this

13:26

is becoming more critical to how

13:28

they do that. And then I think that you're seeing movement

13:31

in touch with the US as well.

13:33

And is there any danger of

13:35

this creating a two-tier

13:38

system where for some jobs,

13:41

it's a skills-first approach, and

13:44

for other jobs, perhaps more senior

13:47

jobs, the sort of strategic

13:49

thinking, C-suite level

13:51

jobs, they'll still rely

13:54

on the old way of doing things. And

13:56

that there will still be this inequality,

13:59

but the skills... first will just exist

14:01

in a sort of separate

14:02

space. Everything about

14:04

all of this right now comes to intent. Intent

14:07

at a systems building level. Are we all

14:09

thinking about this with a view

14:11

towards reducing inequities in the labor

14:13

market and with a focus on not exacerbating

14:16

inequities? What's interesting

14:18

about AI is that it is

14:21

not what automation was seen as, which is something

14:23

that was coming explicitly for first

14:26

line workers, entry level work, it's

14:28

something that could really exacerbate inequity.

14:31

It's going to hit all facets of work. And

14:33

I was just in India at a conference where we

14:36

talked about the potential for AI to

14:38

actually take low wage work,

14:40

which we often incorrectly describe as low

14:43

skill work and create an environment

14:45

where suddenly we're able to better appreciate the

14:47

high skills required for that work. And

14:49

for low wage workers to be able to be more

14:52

compensated and more valued for the work they

14:54

do. Home healthcare work in the US is

14:56

a good example of a high skill

14:59

job that is often low wage, but in a world

15:01

of work where people to people skills, people to

15:03

people engagement, healthcare, anchoring

15:05

on that matters more, that math can start

15:07

to change for employers. So I

15:10

can see structurally

15:12

the opportunities with AI to

15:14

democratize access to economic opportunity,

15:17

but it all will be decided

15:19

now by the intent that we bring. I really

15:21

think this is sort of a deciding decade

15:23

as we look out at the next century, because

15:25

this is when the foundations get built and

15:28

once they're sort of built in somewhat locks, they

15:30

ripple out in ways that are harder to adjust

15:33

over time.

15:34

Is there an anxiety, particularly

15:36

amongst older workers about

15:39

this new focus on skills,

15:41

because they might feel that their

15:44

wisdom, their experience,

15:46

the fact they've been immersed in a particular

15:48

industry or organization for a lot

15:50

of time should be their calling

15:53

card. They might feel quite anxious

15:55

about not having really up to the

15:58

skills. shiny

16:00

new skills versus wisdom

16:03

experience. How does that sort of

16:05

fit together?

16:06

Look, there's anxiety for anyone anytime

16:09

change happens. Change leads

16:12

to stress. But to me, skills

16:14

isn't the change. Skills is an answer

16:17

to a world that is changing around us because

16:19

of technological change, because of worker

16:22

expectation change coming out of the pandemic.

16:25

So to me, skills is the thing

16:27

that decreases stress against

16:29

the changes that are causing a lot of stress for

16:31

people that are external, because skills you can control.

16:34

I would encourage everyone not to see skills as

16:36

the change that they have to react to, but skills

16:39

as the tool with which they can react to all these

16:41

changes that are playing out right now.

16:43

Fast forward into the future.

16:45

Where do you think the balance will

16:48

fall?

16:48

If you look back as far as

16:50

you can and look forward as far

16:52

as feels plausible, you could see an arc

16:55

of physical abilities that shift to cognitive abilities,

16:57

that shift to social abilities. And

16:59

you can hope that that shift to social

17:01

abilities has all sorts of good

17:04

outcomes for us societally in

17:06

terms of humanity coming more into our day-to-day.

17:09

Well, Anish, thank you so much for your time.

17:11

What a fascinating conversation we've

17:13

had. Thank you so much for joining us

17:15

on Take On Tomorrow. Thanks for having me.

17:19

We're here once again with Pete Brown.

17:21

Pete, there is so much to unpack there. If

17:24

business leaders want to try

17:26

this, what are some of the practical ways they

17:28

can enact a skills-first

17:30

approach?

17:31

I think the first thing I'd start with is the culture

17:34

of an organisation. It goes without saying that

17:36

for such a large change, it requires

17:38

sponsorship at the highest level and

17:41

commitment and demonstration of that from the board

17:43

level. But I think there are a few practical

17:46

things that organisations can do. The

17:48

first is around assessing the skills

17:50

landscape and creating a strategic

17:52

workforce plan, identifying

17:55

the skills you need, but also then

17:57

analysing the skills you've got and working out the

17:59

gaps.

17:59

How do you fill those gaps? Do you fill

18:02

that by upskilling people within your own organization?

18:05

Do you hire in gig workers? Do you hire in

18:07

permanent workers? Where do you find that

18:09

talent? And I think that's where technology really

18:11

comes in to help in terms of identifying

18:14

those kind of locations.

18:15

When business leaders are thinking about a skills

18:18

first approach,

18:19

is this something they think about when

18:21

hiring or can this be done with employees

18:24

who are already in the organization?

18:26

We actually did a study in conjunction with

18:28

the World Economic Forum. And in that,

18:30

we actually estimate that by

18:33

looking at the people you have within your organization,

18:36

breaking down the skills they have, and

18:38

you release that into the workforce, there's properly

18:40

the equivalent of 100 million workers worth

18:43

of effort that you're able to release, which

18:45

is huge. And so I think, yes,

18:47

both markets, the external market and the

18:49

internal market, but I'd really

18:52

focus on the internal market first because there's so

18:54

much untapped and willing

18:56

potential there.

18:57

And what do you see as being the biggest barriers

19:00

to this style of approach being adopted

19:02

more widely?

19:03

I think firstly, the cultural shift that's

19:05

required to foster

19:08

an organization environment where skills are trusted

19:11

and recognized, replacing traditional

19:13

biases that have always prioritized formal

19:16

qualifications, if you like. I

19:18

think secondly, in terms of

19:21

assuming you have some form of standardized

19:23

skill taxonomy, how do you

19:25

verify those skills? And

19:27

thirdly, I think developing that skills

19:30

taxonomy, which maps to specific

19:32

roles, that's something that's actually

19:34

quite complex and hard to do, particularly

19:37

in large enterprises.

19:38

When it comes to employees

19:41

tweaking their resumes to

19:43

make it a bit more skills

19:45

first, do you have any tips for people, any

19:47

advice for people?

19:49

Challenge yourself, break down some of

19:51

the things you've been doing at work out

19:53

the skills you've been using and describe those

19:55

in context. I think that's so much

19:58

more useful actually for prospective...

19:59

employers where they see the

20:02

context in which those skills have been used and demonstrated

20:04

and the results.

20:06

I think also embrace every and any

20:08

opportunity to develop these skills, not

20:11

just sort of classical technology, technical

20:13

kind of skills, but actually

20:16

people skills, human skills, consistently.

20:19

CEOs tell us that the skills that

20:21

are in most demand are those in the

20:23

human skills, problem solving, critical

20:26

thinking, collaboration, networking,

20:28

leadership. They're really hard

20:30

to train and they're really hard to find.

20:32

And Pete, you have talked a lot about the

20:35

benefits of unlocking the talent that you

20:37

already have in house that you didn't know

20:39

was there. How do bosses tap

20:42

into that internal talent

20:43

pool? First, take a data-led approach.

20:46

So A, look at the data you already have.

20:48

And many organizations have lots of data

20:50

about their employees. Often they don't

20:52

access it, they don't use it. Secondly,

20:55

ask your employees, make it easy for them to declare

20:57

the skills they have to share those. I think

21:00

also create opportunities

21:02

for people to move around

21:04

the organization and create that kind

21:07

of empowered workforce, that environment

21:09

where you spend a lot of money hiring tons

21:11

of people, empower

21:13

them. And final question to you, Pete.

21:17

What we've been discussing here today about

21:19

this new skill-based approach,

21:23

is this something that lends itself to bigger

21:25

organizations with big HR

21:28

departments. How does this approach work

21:30

for maybe smaller businesses?

21:32

Larger organizations, particularly some

21:34

of the traditional ones, often they

21:36

get in their own way because of the processes,

21:38

the approvals. It can be quite clunky

21:41

in some examples. That said, I

21:43

think the advantage of the larger organizations

21:46

have is back to that point around skills in

21:48

front of your nose that you perhaps don't realize are there.

21:50

You have a larger population of

21:52

workers, you have more skills there. Your

21:54

ability then to identify those skills and move

21:57

those into the point of need is easier

21:59

than perhaps in the future. in a smaller organization.

22:01

Well, Pete, it's been such a pleasure

22:04

having you back on the podcast.

22:06

Thank you for your time and for all your

22:08

insight. Thank you very much.

22:13

I found this so interesting, Ayesha,

22:15

because to be honest, I had not really

22:18

thought about skills-based

22:20

hiring and skills first.

22:23

I think grew up in a

22:25

very linear way of thinking

22:27

about professional development. And

22:30

just the ideas both of

22:33

leading with your skills and

22:36

the way Aneesh described

22:38

thinking about sort of one's

22:41

career over a time span, but then also

22:43

developing in-house talent was

22:45

really interesting to me. I think the sort

22:48

of recognizing people for what they can

22:50

do, even if they're not already doing

22:52

it, is fascinating.

22:54

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think we're

22:56

so hardwired to think of

22:59

good quality people being what school

23:01

you went to or what qualifications. We're kind

23:03

of, our brains are trained to

23:06

think about a person if they're good on paper,

23:08

literally. But actually listening to

23:10

Aneesh and Pete, this

23:12

is about allowing people to tell

23:15

the stories of what they could

23:17

actually do for your company

23:20

in a slightly different way. And I think this

23:22

could be really exciting. I think it could unlock

23:24

a lot of opportunities for women,

23:27

for people from different backgrounds that haven't

23:29

done that traditional route of education. I

23:31

think it's gonna be really interesting to see where this goes.

23:36

That's it for this episode.

23:38

Join us next week when we'll be asking,

23:41

as business and society get caught

23:44

up in the excitement of rapidly evolving

23:46

AI technology, is enough being

23:48

done to protect privacy? And what

23:50

does business need to know as it

23:52

navigates this new landscape? The

23:55

benefits of these technologies are going to

23:57

be so overwhelming. They're

23:59

disruptive. impact on so

24:01

many aspects of people's lives is going to be so

24:04

significant. We're not going to stop

24:06

the technology. Over progress is going to continue.

24:09

We're going to need to approach it with humility.

24:12

Take on Tomorrow is brought to you by PwC's

24:15

strategy and business. PwC refers

24:17

to the PwC

24:17

network and or one or

24:20

more of its member firms, each of which is

24:22

a separate legal entity.