0:01

The planetary boundaries show that

0:04

the remaining natural resource space is

0:06

shrinking and it's finite. Circularity,

0:11

efficiency and moving

0:14

towards zero impacts is

0:16

the melody of the future.

0:20

It's not just panda bears

0:22

and birds. Nature encompasses all

0:25

of the natural world that we live in. It's the air, it's the oceans, it's

0:27

the land. And if you

0:29

think about nature risk, it's

0:31

more than just the availability

0:33

of water and the effects of drought. But

0:36

there's also opportunities. My

0:39

advice would be for business leaders, don't

0:42

get too bogged down by that headwind. There's

0:45

a stronger tailwind. When you're out cycling

0:47

and you're cycling really well, you always have

0:49

a bit of wind in your face, but you're making

0:51

speed.

0:54

From PWC's management

0:56

publication Strategy in Business, this is

0:58

Take On Tomorrow, the podcast

1:00

that brings together experts from around

1:02

the globe to figure out what business could

1:05

and should be doing to tackle some of

1:07

the biggest issues facing the world. I'm Ayesha Hazarika,

1:10

a broadcaster and writer in London. And

1:13

I'm Lizzie O'Leary, a podcaster and journalist

1:15

in New York.

1:17

Today, we're talking about how business

1:20

interacts with nature for better

1:22

and for worse. The natural world

1:24

provides the air we breathe, the water

1:26

we drink and the essential goods and

1:28

services that enable our societies

1:31

and economies to thrive. However,

1:33

the value of nature is not fully recognised

1:35

within our financial systems. PWC

1:39

research that looked at the link between economic

1:41

activities and the natural ecosystem

1:44

found that 55% of global

1:46

GDP,

1:47

equivalent to about 58 trillion

1:50

US dollars, is moderately or

1:52

highly dependent on nature.

1:54

With so many natural ecosystems

1:56

at severe risk, businesses have a

1:59

crucial role to play. in restoring habitats

2:01

and preserving the value the world

2:03

gets from nature. But how do they

2:05

make that happen? And what are

2:07

the opportunities for businesses in becoming

2:10

nature positive? To answer

2:12

those questions, we'll talk to Earth

2:14

scientist Johan Rotstrom, who

2:17

you heard at the start. Johan

2:19

will talk us through his internationally renowned

2:21

work on global sustainability. But

2:24

first, we're joined by Dan O'Brien, a

2:26

partner with PwC Canada, who

2:28

leads the sustainable business solutions

2:30

practice in Western Canada and is a

2:32

member of the Task Force on Nature-related

2:35

Financial Disclosures. Dan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks,

2:37

Lizzie. It's really good to

2:39

be here today.

2:40

PwC has published an analysis

2:43

of the nature risks that organizations

2:45

could be facing that found that more than

2:48

half of global GDP is moderately

2:50

or highly dependent on nature, or in

2:52

real terms, the equivalent of $58 trillion

2:55

US dollars. Really a colossal

2:58

number. But what does that actually mean for individual

3:01

businesses who can't possibly

3:04

impact things at that scale? I

3:07

mean, why should an individual CEO

3:09

or board care about this, Dan?

3:12

What's changed now is that there's

3:14

more and more expectation that this information is

3:16

going to be made available so that their key

3:18

stakeholders, their investors, their insurers,

3:21

their banks that lend them capital can

3:23

see what those risks are and how

3:26

their businesses is addressing them. Without

3:28

providing that information, this flow

3:30

of capital will start to tighten up because

3:33

one of the key drivers behind this is that the

3:35

financial services sector is starting

3:37

to worry about these risks. They're not afraid

3:39

of risk. They're used to dealing with risk, but they

3:41

need to have all of the information in order to

3:43

create a better understanding of that risk. And

3:46

then they'll flow capital to those businesses

3:48

that they understand well and that they know

3:50

where those risks are being mitigated.

3:52

What are your clients telling you about

3:54

their challenges and concerns in

3:57

this particular area?

3:59

right now, especially

4:01

those that operate in nature-dependent

4:03

sectors, there is some inherent understanding

4:06

of the dependencies, and they've experienced

4:08

some of these impacts and some of the

4:11

risks materializing over the years. Probably

4:14

what's more challenging is those sectors that,

4:16

in terms of their direct operations, they don't have

4:18

high levels of dependency, but they might do in their

4:20

supply chain. The challenge right now is

4:23

really trying to understand where

4:25

in the supply chain business activities are located

4:28

and what the associated dependencies

4:30

and impacts are for those business

4:33

activities.

4:34

Dan, we're going to come back to you to unpack

4:36

more of these risks and issues, but Ayesha,

4:39

you spoke to Johan Rockstrom,

4:41

director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate

4:44

Impact Research. He's an internationally

4:46

renowned scientist known for his work on

4:48

global sustainability. Can you tell

4:50

us a little bit about what you discussed? Johan

4:53

was a leading member of the team that created

4:55

the Planetary Boundaries Framework,

4:58

which is a way of drawing together and

5:00

understanding human impact on

5:02

a number of Earth systems. I

5:05

began by asking him to outline

5:07

that idea.

5:13

The questions we try to answer is,

5:16

what are the large environmental

5:18

systems that regulates the stability

5:20

of the planet? We've identified nine,

5:22

and they've been scrutinized over 15 years

5:24

of research. We then quantify

5:27

safe boundaries beyond which

5:29

we risk causing a drift away

5:32

from a stable state that can support humanity,

5:34

but within which we have a safe operating

5:37

space. We have a high chance of

5:39

prosperity and equity for humanity. As

5:41

you say, you and your team have

5:44

worked

5:44

hard to look at these safe operational

5:47

limits for particular resources,

5:49

for example, freshwater

5:52

use. How did you calculate that,

5:54

and how did you meet the

5:55

right balance?

5:56

It's an international collaboration

5:59

among top scholars around

6:01

the entire world. Basically all

6:03

the spheres of the Earth system,

6:05

the hydrosphere, the geosphere, the biosphere,

6:08

the cryosphere, the atmosphere, have been

6:10

represented in quantifying

6:13

the safe boundaries. And what we're trying to measure

6:15

against is to keep each boundary within

6:18

a range of variability that we've seen in

6:20

the Holocene, this stable

6:22

state that we've had over the past 12,000 years.

6:25

And then we are matching that against risk

6:28

assessments. One generic feature

6:30

is to avoid crossing tipping points. And

6:32

a tipping point is when a system

6:35

crosses a threshold and feedbacks

6:38

change from stabilizing to

6:40

self amplifying. So for climate, for

6:42

example, when the green and ice sheet crosses

6:44

a tipping point, that would occur

6:46

when the green and ice sheet shifts from being self

6:49

cooling, reflecting back,

6:51

incoming solar radiation, outer

6:53

space, thanks to the fact that it's a white permanent

6:57

ice surface, to becoming so dark

6:59

because of liquid and melting

7:02

that it would absorb more heat than

7:04

it's reflecting back. That's a tipping

7:06

point. So strictly speaking, when you cross

7:08

a boundary, does not mean that you

7:11

collapse. It means that you enter a danger

7:13

zone where things can start going wrong.

7:16

And then we're running Earth system models and

7:18

then climate models to look at interactions

7:21

between boundaries. You have climate being one

7:23

of the boundaries, of course, but a second

7:25

boundary is biodiversity.

7:29

And biodiversity is about living

7:31

species and carbon sequestration

7:34

capacity in ecosystems. So

7:36

of course, if you cross the safe boundary

7:39

on biodiversity, you have a feedback

7:41

of carbon, that will impact your climate

7:43

boundary.

7:44

And in your work, you distinguish between

7:47

safe boundaries and just

7:50

boundaries. Can you explain what

7:52

those two things are? What is the distinction?

7:55

Yes. And I'm really grateful for that question because

7:57

that's one of the big breakthroughs of recent

8:00

research. So to give you an example

8:02

that if the safe boundary for climate

8:05

is one to keep ourselves below 1.5

8:08

degrees Celsius warming to keep

8:10

the planet in a manageable state,

8:13

the social science analysis of

8:15

levels to avoid causing significant

8:18

harm to unacceptable large

8:20

number of people, then the

8:22

just boundary ends up at around

8:25

one degree Celsius. Already beyond

8:27

one degree, we pass the just

8:29

boundary of unacceptable harm to

8:32

tens of millions of people because

8:35

of heat waves, floods, disease

8:37

patterns, fires, droughts.

8:40

The planet is still, so to say, coping.

8:42

And it isn't until you come to the safe boundary

8:45

that you start putting the stability

8:47

of your system at risk.

8:49

If we just keep going as we

8:51

are now, how great is

8:53

the scale of the threat in your estimation?

8:56

Unfortunately, we are in a very, very

8:59

dire situation. Not

9:01

only are we in the midst of a climate

9:03

crisis, we have an ecological crisis

9:06

well outside of the biodiversity

9:08

boundary. We are in the third super

9:11

El Niño, so at 1.2 degrees Celsius

9:14

of warming where we are beyond the safe

9:16

boundary on climate already. All

9:18

continents are experiencing

9:21

extreme heat in this super El Niño, which

9:23

is amplified by the fact that we're crossing

9:25

the climate boundary. And it's already

9:27

today affecting economies and businesses

9:29

around the world, but it will only get worse if

9:32

we do not bend the curves and start moving

9:34

back within a safe space of all

9:36

these planetary boundaries.

9:38

Can you give our listeners some examples

9:40

of how businesses rely on nature

9:43

to operate and how some

9:45

companies might suffer if

9:48

the planet systems continue

9:50

to degrade? Yeah,

9:53

and let me first congratulate PwC

9:56

for this study, quantifying that

9:58

more than half of the global GDP. GDP is moderately

10:01

or highly dependent on nature, the US$58 trillion.

10:06

But let me just say at the outset, of

10:08

course, that is an underestimate

10:11

because the number is the entire

10:13

global GDP. There's not one

10:16

single item in the global

10:18

economy that does not depend on nature

10:21

because nature provides us with all

10:23

resources. And here, just to state

10:26

the obvious, I mean, why are we crossing

10:28

planetary boundaries? Well, to a very large extent,

10:30

it is because we're not paying

10:33

for the use of those resources. So

10:36

we are allowed to basically exploit

10:39

for free the boundaries

10:41

of the planet, the budgets of natural resources.

10:44

And then we earn money in GDP terms

10:47

in the value creation and consumption

10:49

of those resources. In accounting terms,

10:52

the planet is subsidizing us for

10:54

free. And then we count that as

10:56

an income in GDP terms. If

10:58

we had factored in the externalities properly

11:01

of all the damage we're causing when we

11:03

exploit in the wrong way, we would very likely

11:06

be much, much smarter stewards of

11:08

the planet. It's also about

11:10

having customers demanding

11:13

your goods and services because what

11:15

we are seeing increasingly is that climate

11:17

change and ecological

11:20

crisis is causing instability

11:22

in societies. You get

11:25

displacement, migration, and conflicts.

11:28

You get forest fires in Greece knocking

11:30

over the whole tourist industry. So

11:33

any business leader wants

11:35

to have not only secured access

11:38

to natural resources to be able

11:41

to produce what you're offering

11:43

to your customers, you also want your

11:45

customers to have reasonable purchasing power.

11:48

For that, you want to have stable societies. And

11:50

you don't get stable societies if those

11:53

economies

11:54

are

11:55

plagued by heatwaves, plagued

11:57

by droughts, plagued by floods.

12:00

and continuously under states

12:03

of instability and turbulence. So we

12:05

all lose from an unstable

12:07

planet. There's

12:08

a lot of different competing priorities

12:11

at the moment. The economy is in a very

12:13

difficult place. So why should

12:16

business leaders care about

12:19

the planetary boundaries when

12:21

they have so much else going on?

12:23

You can no longer separate

12:26

the ecological crisis from the climate crisis,

12:28

from the social, economic and geopolitical

12:31

crisis in the world. So whether you like it or

12:33

not, you have to keep many balls

12:35

in the air at the same time, period. That's

12:38

one key factor here. The second

12:40

is that the environmental crisis

12:43

are more slow-moving than the

12:45

faster-moving war, inflation,

12:49

immediate social

12:51

crisis. The challenge for us to understand

12:54

is that the slow-moving crisis, the

12:56

environmental or climate crisis, they will

12:58

hit us back in the future

13:01

and they can hit us back in a very abrupt way.

13:04

So it's not a solution to say, okay,

13:06

let's simply deal with the most immediate crisis

13:09

and deal with climate further down the line

13:12

because we cannot cope with it today. That

13:14

doesn't work because these environmental crises,

13:16

they just accumulate. So we have

13:19

no choice. We simply need

13:21

to recognize that they're all interconnected and we

13:23

have to deal also with these slow crises

13:26

simultaneously with the fast crisis if

13:28

we want to have the chance

13:31

of markets and viable

13:34

living conditions in the future.

13:35

You've outlined some of the business

13:38

risks associated with

13:40

degradation of nature and the

13:42

planet. But let's flip that question.

13:45

What are some of the opportunities that

13:48

businesses could seize if they do

13:50

take action?

13:52

Ecological sustainability is

13:54

increasingly moving away from being something

13:56

that you do just to have a little green label

13:59

to increase the economy. have your whole

14:01

value chain in a much more competitive,

14:03

robust, and resilient positioning.

14:06

That is really exciting, and

14:09

it's something that I think any

14:11

business leader today needs to take

14:14

very, very seriously for

14:16

three reasons. I mean, one is your competitors,

14:18

that you might simply be losing

14:21

the race if you don't step on board. The

14:24

second is that the policy regimes are

14:26

moving too slowly, yes, but they are moving.

14:29

We see the carbon border

14:32

adjustment tax in the European Union,

14:34

your largest economic region in the world,

14:37

being applied, which will very

14:39

likely lead to other countries to

14:41

impose carbon taxes to

14:43

be allowed to export to Europe.

14:46

So if you want to not be punished as a business

14:49

down the line, you better be

14:51

as sustainable as possible today to

14:54

not be hit too hard by rising

14:57

policy measures in the future. The

15:00

third and final comes back to my original

15:02

point that I think that the planetary boundaries

15:04

show that the remaining natural

15:07

resource space is shrinking and

15:09

it's finite. So the

15:12

likelihood that we can continue

15:14

believing that we have some infinite

15:17

availability of resources

15:20

to power our businesses is

15:22

simply over. So circularity,

15:25

efficiency, and moving

15:28

towards zero impacts

15:31

is the melody of the future. If

15:33

you don't step on board that today, I think

15:35

you are at risk of simply lagging behind and

15:38

gradually losing your edge

15:41

on the market.

15:42

Now, Johan, you have made an incredibly

15:45

articulate and compelling case,

15:48

and many business leaders will agree

15:50

with everything that you have said. But there

15:52

is pushback. Some of that

15:54

comes from people who are unashamedly climate

15:57

sceptic, but there's also more

15:59

than that. a bit of citizen fatigue

16:01

creeping in about this issue. Some

16:04

people don't like the protests and things like

16:06

that. Other people just struggling with the cost

16:08

of living crisis. How do you make sure

16:11

that this agenda stays relevant,

16:14

it stays energized, and it stays on

16:16

track?

16:16

We feel also in the scientific

16:18

community that there is a backlash,

16:21

anti-science, misinformation,

16:25

questioning all forms of fact, connecting that

16:27

with climate skepticism, and then the short-termism.

16:31

But at the same time, we're starting

16:33

to see that the sustainability

16:35

transition, particularly climate transition, is starting

16:37

to go to scale. We're going

16:39

from single-digit number to

16:42

two-digit numbers on solar

16:44

voltaics, wind farms, electric

16:47

car purchase. And that,

16:49

I think, is also making it

16:51

clear for all those actors who seemingly

16:55

want to have status quo, that

16:57

this is for real now. But we're also

16:59

starting to see the light in the tunnel. When

17:02

the European Union took this groundbreaking

17:05

decision on protecting nature

17:07

and following on the Green Deal, which

17:10

already has legislated 55

17:13

percent reduction in emissions by 2030, with

17:16

a carbon price now over 100 euros, that's

17:19

getting serious. So my advice would be

17:21

for business leaders, don't get too

17:23

bogged down by that headwind, because

17:26

there's a stronger tailwind. The tailwind

17:29

is today so strong that

17:31

the headwind should just be seen as, you

17:33

know, when you're out cycling and you're

17:35

cycling really well, you always have a bit

17:38

of wind in your face, but

17:40

you're making speed. And I think that's the question

17:42

now, keep the speed.

17:43

Well, Johan, it's been so fascinating speaking

17:46

with you and getting all your expert analysis

17:49

and insight. Thank you so much for joining us on

17:51

Take On Tomorrow.

17:53

Thank you. Great to be with you.

17:59

Now, there's a lot to reflect on

18:02

in what Johan is saying, but first I

18:04

want to talk about this headwind

18:06

and tailwind idea. You know, he used

18:09

the cycling analogy. Do

18:11

you agree that the tailwinds

18:14

are stronger than the headwinds?

18:16

I think there's both. I think the headwinds

18:18

are the reluctance of business to change

18:21

the way that they are currently operating. There

18:24

are significant amounts of capital that are

18:26

looking for homes in sustainable

18:28

investments. And those companies

18:30

that can do a good job of demonstrating

18:32

how these changes that they're making to their business

18:34

are going to create these kinds of impacts will attract

18:37

that investment. There's also opportunities

18:39

for cost savings. So a lot of these initiatives

18:42

will actually reduce costs. They'll be removing

18:44

waste from their process. Consumers are

18:46

starting to make very strong signals through

18:48

their buying decisions that they want to align and

18:50

they want to purchase from companies that have these

18:52

kinds of practices. So it's a matter

18:54

of understanding where the tailwinds are

18:57

coming from and making sure that you've got the right

18:59

sales set up so that you can catch those

19:01

tailwinds.

19:02

Johan talked a lot about updating

19:05

the planetary boundaries framework

19:07

to include an emphasis on

19:10

just as well as safe boundaries.

19:13

What does that mean for business?

19:16

So this is really about understanding your

19:18

stakeholders and the communities, the people

19:20

that you interact with as a business. It

19:23

might be your customers. It might be your

19:25

suppliers, your employees, but it might also be the

19:27

communities that you're operating in. Often

19:29

companies are operating in areas with indigenous people.

19:32

And so understanding how

19:34

your communities that you're operating in are being

19:36

impacted is becoming critical.

19:38

We mentioned the big headline

19:40

number, but I wonder when you are talking

19:43

to a business and trying

19:45

to help them understand their impact on nature

19:47

and their nature risk and how it ties back

19:50

to what they do every day, how do you help

19:52

them see that?

19:53

One of the challenges is that this is a very large

19:56

and complex topic. It's not just panda

19:59

bears and. birds, nature encompasses

20:02

all of the natural world that we live in. It's the air,

20:04

it's the oceans, it's the land. It's more

20:06

than just the availability of water

20:08

and the effects of drought. The tourism industry,

20:11

for example, is hugely dependent

20:13

on nature. The disaster in Maui,

20:15

for example, is a good indicator of what can happen

20:18

when nature risks materialize. You

20:20

have a significant impact on that

20:22

part of the economy. But there's also opportunities.

20:25

I mean, a good example would be Costa Rica, who really

20:27

early on realized that they're sitting on this

20:30

amazing trove of biodiversity and

20:32

natural assets. And they changed

20:34

how they manage their land. And they've created this amazing

20:37

ecotourism industry. And they attract millions and

20:39

millions of visitors to their country every year. What

20:41

we talk about with our clients is sort

20:43

of thinking about doing course filter

20:45

assessments and then fine filter assessments

20:48

to understand where in your business where

20:50

you might have interactions with

20:52

high priority ecosystems, or you might

20:54

have specific dependencies

20:57

that might be threatened. And then it's a matter

20:59

of drilling down into those hotspots and really

21:01

understanding what's going on and engaging

21:03

with local communities, indigenous people,

21:06

academics, consultants that really

21:08

understand those systems to get

21:11

into that more detailed assessment and understanding

21:13

of how you can mitigate those risks.

21:15

Then let's talk a little bit about the TNFD,

21:18

the Task Force on Nature-related Disclosures.

21:21

How does it fit into this

21:23

conversation about nature-related risks? The

21:26

TNFD is attempting to create

21:29

a framework that standardizes

21:31

the approach for how organizations

21:34

understand their interaction with nature.

21:36

The capital markets, financial institutions are

21:38

clamoring for this kind of information. But

21:41

it's really challenging to get right now because of the

21:43

way it's inconsistently reported. The

21:46

TNFD is really a voluntary

21:48

reporting framework. And what it's doing is

21:50

it's attempting to align very closely

21:52

with the different reporting frameworks

21:54

like the GCFT, the ISSP,

21:57

the ESRS standards coming out of Europe. that

22:00

companies aren't going to create a separate GNFD

22:02

report, that it'll become part of their overall

22:04

sustainability reporting. I don't think

22:07

the expectation is that every company is going to

22:09

get this right, right out of the gate. It

22:11

is complex, right? It's a voluntary

22:14

approach, but it aligns well with

22:16

a lot of other risk management processes that

22:18

companies are already taking.

22:20

What do you think are the real tangible

22:22

opportunities for businesses in

22:24

helping the economy support nature?

22:27

So there's a concept called nature-based

22:30

solutions. It's where you're

22:32

basically working with nature to

22:34

create solutions that basically address a

22:36

number of different challenges, whether

22:38

it's climate change mitigation

22:41

or removal of carbon from the atmosphere, whether

22:43

it's increasing the resiliency of

22:45

an ecosystem so that it can continue

22:47

to provide services. A lot of these

22:49

nature-based solutions can actually create

22:51

value in a number of different ways. It's

22:54

trying to understand where that value

22:56

is coming from and then developing

22:59

the case for it, because oftentimes it will

23:01

involve some level of investment. A

23:03

really good example would be regenerative agriculture.

23:06

Intensive agriculture right now is not

23:08

sustainable in the long term, but

23:10

the challenge is trying to change practices

23:13

at the farm level. How do you incentivize landowners

23:16

and farmers to change their practices? Some

23:18

of our clients or some of the organizations that

23:20

we work with, they're starting to look at, well, how can

23:22

we change pricing for certain services

23:25

or provide microfinancing to

23:27

those organizations? Because we know by

23:29

changing that practice, these farmers are going

23:31

to become more sustainable. But they may

23:34

also be changing practices that

23:36

allow for higher soil carbon

23:38

content. And therefore, is there a way that we

23:40

can actually take credit for the removal

23:43

or storage of carbon in the soils? Maybe

23:45

we can even create a carbon credit or

23:47

we can use it as a way to show that we're reducing

23:50

our GHG emissions, right? So

23:53

it's thinking about all these different multiple values

23:55

that you get from these kinds of investments and

23:59

building the case.

23:59

for it.

24:01

What about those very real

24:03

difficulties for businesses that Ayesha

24:06

spoke about with Johan? Inflation, economic

24:08

pressures all over the world, the cost of living

24:11

crisis. But what do you say to a business

24:13

leader who maybe agrees

24:15

with all the things you're saying,

24:18

but is also looking at their

24:20

company's bottom line?

24:22

Smaller businesses, this is going

24:24

to be a big challenge for them because there's

24:26

initial costs that have to be overcome to change

24:29

those practices. So for larger

24:31

organizations, it's incumbent on them

24:33

to help support the companies that are

24:35

in their value chain. And that might mean

24:38

creating incentives, paying a premium

24:40

for certain goods that are produced

24:42

in a more sustainable way. So it's

24:45

likely going to be through the value chain

24:47

that smaller and medium sized

24:50

businesses will start to see

24:52

drive and demand for products

24:54

and services that are produced in a more sustainable

24:57

way.

24:58

What is the cost of

24:59

not doing anything?

25:01

Yeah, this is kind of a scary question, really.

25:05

And we often don't know what

25:07

will happen if these tipping points

25:09

are reached. In some cases it could

25:11

be systemic collapse. And

25:13

we've seen examples of that in recent history.

25:16

One good example would be the cod fishery off

25:18

the east coast of Canada through

25:20

overfishing and fishing practices.

25:23

Whole economy collapse. A lot of the

25:25

science that a lot of our climate projections

25:28

are based on. There's a lot of conservatism

25:30

in there, which means that it could be potentially

25:33

a lot worse than what's being predicted, right? This

25:35

summer has been probably one of the

25:37

worst wildfire seasons in Canadian history

25:40

and elsewhere around the world. We're really

25:42

starting to see the effects. My concern

25:45

is that organizations are

25:47

reluctant to really get into this because

25:49

of the complexity. If these frameworks are

25:51

to be effective, it's going to be through the sharing

25:53

and disclosure of information. Even if it's not perfect,

25:56

it's important to get that information out there so

25:58

people can start to make decisions. The

26:00

number one thing is not to let perfect be

26:02

the enemy of the good.

26:03

Wise words on which to finish.

26:06

Dan, we're really grateful for your time and

26:08

your expertise. Thanks for joining us.

26:10

Yeah, it's been a real pleasure and I appreciate

26:12

the opportunity to talk about these topics.

26:17

Ayesha, that was a fascinating conversation

26:20

and while Dan's

26:23

last answer really underscored the

26:25

urgency here, I also felt that there was some

26:27

hope. I feel like often in climate-related

26:30

conversations, I get so

26:33

nervous for the future, but it was

26:36

thought-provoking to hear

26:38

Dan talk about the positives

26:40

here. And also the

26:43

realities of what's happening

26:45

and the fact that this is here now. It's

26:48

not something which business leaders

26:50

have to think about in the future. And

26:52

something that really struck out

26:54

from what you, Han, were saying

26:57

and to your point about optimism, that

27:00

the tailwinds are actually

27:02

stronger than the headwinds and sometimes

27:05

it's easy to forget that. But another

27:07

point which Dan made, which I was really interested

27:09

in, is that he said this really important point about investors.

27:12

The investors aren't scared of risk.

27:14

They just want to know. They want to go in eyes

27:16

wide open. And that's why if business

27:19

leaders and CEOs engage,

27:22

there is a stakeholder community that will

27:25

navigate this together, which

27:27

I thought was really interesting.

27:32

That's it for this episode. Join

27:34

us next time when we'll be asking, could

27:37

businesses transform the workforce by

27:39

hiring with a skills-first approach, directly

27:42

assessing and developing the skills they

27:44

need rather than focusing on degrees

27:47

and job

27:47

histories.

27:49

It's

28:00

really messy, but it is better than

28:02

any other way to judge potential and applicants

28:05

if you're trying to build a business that will succeed

28:07

with agility in the age of AI.

28:12

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