0:00

R. Yumanu, Papa

0:02

Chang-go. Hello

0:28

everybody. Welcome to another episode of tangentially

0:30

speaking. My guest today is a lovely

0:32

woman named Aline named after her father,

0:34

Alan, I think she said. Evans, Aline

0:37

worked for many years as a hyper

0:39

successful lawyer. In the state of Texas,

0:41

primarily, she worked for the state insurance

0:44

board. She was a litigator for years.

0:46

She was a litigator for years.

0:48

She was a litigator for years.

0:50

She was a litigator for years.

0:53

She was litigator for years. She

0:55

was litigator for years for years

0:57

for years for years for years

0:59

for years. She's like one of

1:01

those lawyers that they make movies

1:03

about sometimes, you know, defending the

1:06

victims of negligence and I don't

1:08

think she worked as a

1:10

criminal lawyer, but she worked

1:12

in some really big cases,

1:14

big money cases against automakers

1:17

who were negligent at best

1:19

in some of the things

1:21

that they did. But really

1:23

this conversation, we don't really

1:26

talk much about her

1:29

professional, her family,

1:31

her parents are

1:33

really interesting people.

1:35

And basically, I

1:37

think Aline doesn't

1:40

think of herself this way,

1:42

but I see her as

1:44

a bit of a trailblazer.

1:47

In many ways, you'll

1:49

hear personal, professional,

1:52

lots of different...

1:54

ways in which she broke

1:57

the mold and really stepped

1:59

out. on her own and

2:01

created her own path and

2:03

her own sense of meaning

2:05

in life. She's a, like

2:07

I said, she's a lovely

2:10

woman. She's a very, very

2:12

smart, very insightful, very decent

2:14

person, exactly the kind of

2:16

person that we need. I'm

2:18

tempted to say more now

2:20

more than ever, but I

2:22

don't know. I guess we

2:24

always need people like this.

2:26

who are smart and decent

2:29

and ethical and on our

2:31

side of decency. So that's

2:33

a lien. I'm not really

2:35

going to talk much more.

2:37

I'm going to keep my

2:39

political commentary and all that

2:41

other nonsense for the romas

2:43

that I've been doing. I'm

2:45

keeping the conversational episodes in

2:48

front of the paywall. everything

2:50

else is behind the paywall,

2:52

but as you probably know,

2:54

it's a very half-ass paywall.

2:56

It's more like a rickety

2:58

old fence with a open

3:00

gate swinging in the breeze.

3:02

Everyone's welcome. All I ask

3:04

is that you let me

3:07

know that you'd like to

3:09

be admitted into the inner

3:11

sanctum and you will be

3:13

admitted. If you can't afford

3:15

the five bucks a month

3:17

or you just you're overwhelmed

3:19

with other subscriptions. That's totally

3:21

cool. All you have to

3:23

do is drop me a

3:26

line and say, hey, Chris,

3:28

please let me in. I

3:30

like the content. Here's the

3:32

email I use to register

3:34

on sub stack, and that's

3:36

all it takes. I've probably

3:38

combed over a thousand people

3:40

at this point, and I'm

3:42

happy to do it. What

3:45

I'm trying to do is

3:47

create a space where I

3:49

know that the audience wants

3:51

to be here. And enough

3:53

people are subscribed that we

3:55

can keep this. free because

3:57

I fucking hate commercials and

3:59

I imagine you do I

4:01

don't know if you hate

4:04

him as much as I

4:06

do but I really hate

4:08

him like they they can

4:10

ruin my experience I listened

4:12

to several podcasts and it's

4:14

so annoying when I'm listening

4:16

to I'm listening to someone

4:18

talking you know these days

4:20

they're talking about the end

4:23

of democracy they're talking about

4:25

innocent people who've been picked

4:27

up off the street and

4:29

sent to a maximum security

4:31

prison in El Salvador without

4:33

even any criminal charges against

4:35

them. They're like draconian, Stalin-esque,

4:37

gulag, archipelago, horrible shit, and

4:39

then they stop in the

4:42

middle of it and say,

4:44

Are you getting a good

4:47

night's sleep? Because, you know,

4:49

these mattresses are blah, blah,

4:51

blah, blah. Or, you know,

4:54

here, oh, here's a service

4:56

that'll send special toys to

4:58

your dog every month. Like,

5:01

how can you do that?

5:03

How can you go from

5:05

talking about something so incredibly

5:08

urgent and serious to selling

5:10

fucking doodods? Dood's, do dads,

5:12

do dads? Did I

5:15

just say, do dads with

5:17

a French accent or something?

5:19

Anyway, you get my point.

5:21

I just find it, I

5:23

think it's the same reason

5:25

I find musicals really annoying.

5:27

Like, you know, there's some

5:29

drama happening, there's some important

5:31

conversation going on, and then

5:34

suddenly people break out into

5:36

song and dance. It's like,

5:38

wait a minute. I can't

5:40

suspend disbelief to that extent.

5:42

Like, I'm... I'm either in

5:44

the mode where I'm listening

5:46

to this drama and absorbed

5:48

in the drama or I'm

5:50

watching people sing and dance,

5:52

but it can't go from

5:54

one to the other. I

5:57

find it very jarring. And

5:59

yeah, so. No commercials on

6:01

this podcast. I will die

6:03

on that hill. I'll just

6:05

shut down the podcast before

6:07

I'll do those mindless fucking

6:09

commercials. Now I might promote

6:11

something I care about that

6:13

I like, that a friend

6:15

of mine has done, or

6:17

a listener has a business

6:20

that I think is worthwhile.

6:22

I reserve the right to

6:24

do that. But I definitely

6:26

will not just sell commercials

6:28

to the highest bidder. Anyway,

6:30

enough about me. This is

6:32

Alian Evans. She lives in

6:34

Crestone. She's one of the

6:36

fascinating people here. The thing

6:38

about Crestone is, I mean,

6:40

there are exceptions, of course,

6:43

but people in Crestone are

6:45

here for a reason. There's

6:47

something that drew them here

6:49

to this little town at

6:51

the end of the road.

6:53

And I really like places

6:55

like that, where people don't

6:57

just kind of end up

6:59

here by accident. There's a

7:01

story. There's a reason. There's

7:03

a sense of meaning. And

7:06

it's definitely a better town

7:08

for the presence of Aline

7:10

and her husband Tom, who's

7:12

also a fascinating character. All

7:14

right, I'm going to play

7:16

you into this with a

7:18

song called African Fantasy. It's

7:20

by Trilagurtu. who's a percussionist,

7:22

I believe. And it's sung

7:24

by Angelique Jo, who's an

7:26

African singer. I think she

7:29

might be from Senegal. I'm

7:31

not sure, but she has

7:33

a fantastic voice. And the

7:35

reason I'm doing this is

7:37

that if you listen to

7:39

the end of the conversation,

7:41

we talk about Aline's trip

7:43

to Kenya, which was very

7:45

meaningful. and a beautiful experience

7:47

for her so I thought

7:50

this might be appropriate. Thank

7:52

you for listening. I hope

7:54

you enjoy meeting Aline and

7:56

I We'll be

7:58

back with

8:00

you, with you, Shirley. We'll

8:49

be back you,

8:52

Shirley. We'll

9:26

be back you,

9:29

Shirley. Thank

9:31

you. Shirley.

10:07

I

10:14

don't

10:21

know.

10:36

I think of

10:39

Jolei Wola, they

10:41

are, they are,

10:43

they are, they

10:45

are, they are,

10:48

they are, they

10:50

are, they are,

10:52

they are, they

10:55

are, they are,

10:57

all are, they

10:59

are, they are,

11:06

the haji gee. So

11:40

blessed to live

11:42

here in the

11:45

shadow of these

11:47

mountains, these woods,

11:49

these rocks. You've

11:51

been coming here

11:54

a long time.

11:56

A long time.

12:00

proud graduate of Adams State. I

12:02

was not very familiar with the

12:04

North Valley, but my husband was

12:06

because he had worked on me over

12:08

here. Right. And you know, how when you

12:10

meet people, I go, what's your favorite

12:12

place? And Tom says, oh, my favorite

12:15

place is suddenly a place. That's a

12:17

wonderful place. He says, no, you don't know

12:19

where it is. You think it's some place

12:21

up by asking where I said, I said,

12:23

no, I know exactly where it is.

12:26

I went to college there for. And

12:28

so we came here together,

12:30

got married here at

12:32

the Rito Alto Church in

12:35

99, bought our first tax

12:37

lot a few years

12:39

later, really come every

12:41

year. Yeah. Pretty much

12:43

every year. And we love

12:46

it here. It's really

12:48

beautiful here. And we

12:50

really love the valley.

12:52

You know, I just think

12:54

it's just we're living.

12:56

We're basically living in

12:59

a national forest

13:01

and we're surrounded by

13:03

incredible beauty and

13:06

people of centuries

13:08

of resilience and it's

13:10

a wonderful place to

13:13

be. Sometimes on the

13:15

podcast when I'm talking

13:17

about the weather I've said

13:19

I live in the sky.

13:21

We wanted a tree house.

13:24

That's what happened. We're going

13:26

to go straw bail. We

13:29

were going to do whatever,

13:31

whatever, whatever. And also, they're

13:34

all great things to do.

13:36

But we wanted to be up

13:38

so we could see. And Tom

13:40

had run a lift

13:42

from Alamosa years ago. And

13:44

we have a series

13:47

of contiguous lots. And

13:49

we, which took a long

13:51

time to guy and put

13:53

together over time. But we

13:55

could see. Blanca from here

13:58

and so Blanca is right

14:01

here. And of course we

14:03

could, right there, and we

14:05

can see of course the

14:07

Needles and Music Mountain, which

14:09

is one of my favorites.

14:11

And of course the stupa

14:13

and the zigarat and the

14:15

whole valley. Yeah. It's from

14:17

our place, sometimes I feel

14:19

like I'm looking at night,

14:21

especially I feel like I'm

14:23

looking out over a giant

14:25

lake. Because it's all dark,

14:27

but you can see a

14:29

string of lights on the

14:31

other side. Right. And it's

14:33

all just dark in the

14:35

center, like, and it was

14:38

a lake, of course. Yes,

14:40

it was. So you grew

14:42

up in Ohio, am I

14:44

right? Yeah, and you're Cincinnati.

14:46

And your dad was, well,

14:48

he worked from Monsanto. My

14:50

father was a chemist, you

14:52

know, like many of his

14:54

generation dropped out his first

14:56

semester of college to... to

14:58

go into the war to

15:00

World War II. And my

15:02

father ended up working in

15:04

the fire, working in what

15:06

they called fire direction, which

15:08

meant you were in front

15:10

of the troops calculating in

15:12

your head the artillery lines.

15:14

Right. And he was really

15:17

a human computer. That's what...

15:19

There weren't computers. Yeah, yeah,

15:21

if you're wrong, you're calling

15:23

in bombs on yourself. Exactly,

15:25

exactly. So he, he did

15:27

that in. Was he in

15:29

Europe or the Pacific? He

15:31

went, he landed six weeks

15:33

after D-Day, and he was

15:35

in every major European battle.

15:37

And he got the quadrager

15:39

from the French government quite

15:41

late. They're only, they only

15:43

have so many. I don't

15:45

really understand the system. I

15:47

don't really understand the system.

15:49

But they only honor people

15:51

that fought in a certain

15:54

number of battles on French

15:56

soil, which he did, of

15:58

course, Luxembourg. in

16:00

France, Germany, Czech

16:03

Republic, all

16:06

of those. Yeah. Hurricane Porus,

16:08

the bulge. Wow. He was there

16:10

at all of that, and

16:12

he was 19 years old. So

16:14

he wasn't with your mother

16:17

yet? No, no. My parents were

16:19

both from Indiana. My dad

16:21

from Central Indiana, my mother from

16:23

Southern Indiana. And his parents

16:25

had moved to Booneville, the town

16:27

where my mother's from, during

16:29

the war, and he didn't know

16:31

anyone. So when my mother

16:33

knew everybody, she

16:35

was a journalist. She

16:37

worked for the local newspaper,

16:40

the Booneville. A journalist

16:42

in the 40s woman. That's

16:44

pretty unusual, right? It

16:46

was very unusual. She was

16:48

the first woman in

16:50

the press box to call

16:53

games. What

16:55

kind of games? Baseball?

16:57

I think everything. Baseball, basketball,

16:59

not football. I don't

17:01

think. she

17:04

says is that it

17:06

was only possible because the

17:08

men left. Yeah, like

17:10

so many other things. The

17:12

men left, women stepped

17:14

in. And then it was

17:16

possible. I gave her

17:18

a lot of grief about

17:20

her life choices I

17:23

regret giving. But nonetheless. I

17:25

think we've all done

17:27

that. We've all, especially to

17:29

our parents, right? That's

17:31

what I mean, yeah. But

17:33

she loved her job.

17:35

It was great. And then

17:37

she married my father

17:40

after they were engaged, waited

17:42

until my dad graduated

17:44

from Purdue and got his...

17:46

So she met your

17:48

father, he came back from

17:50

the war? Yeah, they

17:52

met in Booneville to show

17:54

him around and they

17:56

started dating. He went back

17:59

to Purdue and got

18:01

his degree. And so when were you born

18:03

then? 51. So six years after

18:05

he came back? Yeah, October

18:07

51. Right. I'm named after

18:10

him. It's Alene, by

18:12

the way. Alene. Alene. Oh,

18:14

not really. Alene. Yeah, Alene.

18:17

Your dad was Alene. Alene?

18:19

Your dad was Alen.

18:22

Alen. Alen. Alen. Alen.

18:24

And my middle name

18:26

is after my grandmother.

18:29

Delores. So I have his

18:31

chop, okay, by ADE. Yeah. What

18:33

was your, was your dad, like,

18:36

I realize you weren't born until

18:38

six years after, and then, you

18:40

know, another 10 or 15 years

18:43

until you were conscious, right? But

18:45

do you remember, was your dad

18:47

affected by the war? Was, was

18:50

he? Oh, he was affected, but

18:52

he didn't talk about it. Yeah.

18:54

I was 16. The first time

18:57

I remember my father talking at

18:59

all about the war. And we

19:01

were at the Museum of Science

19:04

Industry in Chicago and

19:06

there was a display of

19:08

military medals. And he said, well,

19:10

I have that one and I

19:13

have that one. That was the

19:15

first time I'd ever heard my

19:17

father say anything about the war.

19:20

My father was traumatized by

19:22

the war as was everybody

19:24

else. My

19:27

mother said one of their first

19:29

dates He there was a

19:31

newsreel that came on something

19:34

he promptly got out

19:36

and went into the theater

19:38

lobby because he couldn't

19:40

watch it Right They'd gone

19:43

to a movie and suddenly

19:45

there's yeah, there it is.

19:47

Yeah, my dad did a war

19:49

tour with my brother. I little

19:51

jealous. I didn't get to go

19:54

but it was okay It was good

19:56

that my brother went with my dad,

19:58

where they went to all the. lot of

20:00

the places in Europe he

20:03

shot. And that was a really,

20:05

that was a really good

20:08

experience for him and he

20:10

came back. He met people

20:13

in bars or taverns who

20:15

had been shooting on the

20:17

other side. And he really,

20:19

he really wanted them to

20:22

tell us his story. And

20:24

so he wrote the soldiers

20:26

story, which was an

20:29

expugated. description

20:31

of his. And he

20:33

wrote it just for

20:36

you for the family.

20:38

Right. Yeah. And it's

20:40

one, it's a wonderful

20:43

read, so interesting,

20:46

even though it

20:48

is expugated, of course,

20:51

that. That's

20:53

interesting. It's just,

20:55

it really did shape.

20:58

It shaped that generation

21:01

in both directions.

21:03

Yeah. In a

21:05

lot of important

21:07

ways. And I,

21:09

my dad was,

21:12

he was superintendent

21:14

of laboratories

21:16

for Monsanto

21:18

in that plant, most

21:21

of the time. And he.

21:26

Was a mass we were Massachusetts

21:28

for three years, but otherwise we were

21:31

there because the job just kept growing

21:33

But to give you a sense of

21:35

what what he and my mother were like

21:37

the I don't know how familiar you

21:39

are with the industrial river Yeah, I

21:42

lived in Pittsburgh in the 70s. Yes,

21:44

you totally know about the industrial

21:46

river well these plants are built

21:49

on the river for transportation and

21:51

and they use a lot of River

21:53

transport and there were four villages

21:55

where I grew up Monsanto

21:57

was in one of the four villages.

22:00

He was the first

22:02

management person to live

22:04

in the villages. The

22:06

management people lived in

22:09

the suburbs. And it was,

22:11

the village I grew up

22:13

in was a largely working

22:15

class, lower middle class, poor

22:18

community with outliers,

22:20

you know, people who had

22:22

more money or more resources.

22:25

Your parents chose to live

22:27

there. Because they could have

22:29

afforded, obviously, to live in

22:31

the suburbs. And why do you

22:33

think they made that decision? They

22:35

didn't think that's real places.

22:37

Ah, interesting. They didn't think

22:40

they were real places. They

22:42

both grew up in smaller towns. They

22:44

wanted a place where there was

22:46

more economic diversity. I don't

22:49

think they were as focused on

22:51

racial diversity. In the beginning,

22:53

although they became... quite active

22:55

in integrating housing in the

22:57

village of Cleas through the

22:59

church and other things. They

23:01

were community leaders. My father

23:03

was on the countywide school

23:06

board and was a big

23:08

part of pushing to have an

23:10

industrial education school on the west

23:12

side of town, which is where

23:15

we were, where people needed it

23:17

more. He was on the water

23:19

board. He just, my mother did

23:21

all these various community things.

23:24

And so as a consequence

23:26

of that, I did judge,

23:28

you know, we all try to

23:30

be, the older I get, the

23:33

less judge I get, but I

23:35

got a long way to go

23:37

before I get there, a

23:40

long way to go, but

23:42

I judged those people, those

23:45

suburbanites who would come and say,

23:47

oh Margaret, how can you bridge?

23:49

Oh Margaret how can you bear

23:51

it there's a cow out there

23:53

in the road? Some of this is

23:55

I like it. You know it didn't it

23:58

didn't bother my mother one bit. parents

24:00

political at that point when you

24:02

were a little girl or did

24:05

that come with time? They're religious.

24:07

So for them it was the sort

24:10

of quest for justice was

24:12

a religious thing. Yes, now

24:14

my mother's family were political.

24:16

Very political. Because generally

24:19

journalism there is a

24:21

political consciousness. Right and

24:23

two or two brothers to both

24:26

journalists in southern Indiana.

24:28

Was her father a

24:30

journal? No, your father

24:32

was the chef. Oh,

24:35

okay. Well, that's political.

24:37

It's very political.

24:40

You're talking

24:42

the 20s? Yeah,

24:44

yeah. My grandfather's

24:46

Bradley was a

24:49

complex figure. He,

24:51

he, he stood against

24:54

the clan. He, when...

24:56

I'm told this, I

24:58

don't really, you know,

25:00

how you're hearing family

25:02

histories, it's hard to

25:05

separate out what it

25:07

all really means. Right.

25:09

But as a little girl

25:12

growing up, I heard this

25:14

from other people besides

25:16

my family, when he

25:19

was part of the

25:21

last Democratic

25:23

machine in Indiana. guard

25:26

to break up the mining

25:28

strikes across southern Indiana,

25:30

that my grandfather held

25:32

them at the county line.

25:35

I don't know if that meant, I

25:37

don't know what that meant, I

25:39

don't know if that was political

25:42

influence or if that was something

25:44

else, but I heard that

25:46

all my life as a little girl

25:48

from old people who were there.

25:50

He saved our lives. Because

25:53

otherwise... When the guard came

25:55

in, people died. Their heads

25:57

were cracked. Right. They died.

26:00

So he ostensibly stood

26:02

with the workers against capital.

26:04

Yeah, he kept it from

26:07

happening. He kept it from

26:09

happening and they never forgot

26:11

it. Yeah. He was an

26:13

alcoholic, he had issues, but

26:15

he stood for the right thing.

26:17

And Indiana still to

26:20

this day, my understanding

26:22

is it's a surprisingly

26:24

conservative state. Well, yeah,

26:26

I mean, southern Indiana,

26:28

spread just south of most

26:31

of Kentucky. And it

26:33

was racist. Yeah.

26:35

My great-grandmother accidentally

26:38

got caught up by a mob

26:41

that was lynching someone

26:43

in Bonville. The Klan was

26:46

stronger in Indiana than

26:48

any other state. Yeah, that's

26:51

what I've heard. 60s and 70s for

26:53

sure. I'm not sure. you know,

26:55

where all that is now. But yeah,

26:57

it was a complex place, you know,

27:00

Scots-Irish. Were your parents

27:02

Catholic? Yeah. Presbyterian.

27:04

Presbyterian. We're Presbyterian. Right.

27:06

And it's interesting, you said

27:08

that, you know, we forget

27:10

now people who are Catholics or some

27:12

mainstream. But when I was going

27:15

up, there were lots of Catholics

27:17

in Cincinnati. There were lots of Catholics

27:19

in Cincinnati. But when I

27:22

was going up, there were lots

27:24

of Catholics in Cincinnati. They

27:26

weren't mainstream. I remember

27:29

most everyone was

27:31

Republican where I grew

27:33

up also and in

27:35

Southern India I

27:37

became Republican mostly,

27:39

but Southern Ohio

27:41

was Republican, Western

27:43

Hamilton County was

27:45

Republican, and and I remember

27:48

being at the best stop

27:50

during the Kennedy Nixon

27:52

elections to say, Who's

27:54

your family voting for and I just didn't want

27:56

to deal with it? You know, of course I

27:58

knew we're gonna vote Democrat But I said, I

28:01

don't know. She says, well, are you

28:03

Catholic? No. Well, then they're

28:05

boning for Nixon. There wasn't a

28:07

kid. This is a kid at

28:09

a school bus stop, but nonetheless.

28:11

But the kind of community I

28:13

grew up, just to give you

28:15

a sense of what it was

28:18

like, it was half of my

28:20

sixth grade class failed. I

28:22

had a 16-year-old in my fourth

28:24

grade class. That was back when

28:26

they failed students. That was back

28:28

when they failed students and that

28:31

was back where they didn't have

28:33

special programs. Yeah, all that kind

28:35

of thing, but it was, but

28:37

it was, it was rough. It

28:39

was kind of rough. There were a

28:41

lot of hoods there, quote unquote, hoods.

28:43

And, um. So you were a brain.

28:46

I was a brain. What I said is,

28:48

what I say now in retrospect is I

28:50

was an alien but I was their alien

28:52

and I said there were four villages.

28:54

We lived in the second

28:56

poorest village. The poorest village was

28:58

right where the plant was. We lived

29:01

in the second poorest village and it

29:03

was, it was, there were two

29:05

historic villages, this one and

29:07

another one. So the kids, so we

29:10

each had our own great school and

29:12

then we were consolidated from middle, junior

29:14

high and high and high school. And

29:16

I had to, I always walked

29:19

to, you know, the elementary

29:21

school, but anyway, to

29:24

go to middle school, I wrote

29:26

a bus. And, you know, one

29:28

of those fancy kids

29:30

was giving me a

29:32

hard time about something

29:34

and Hood stood up and

29:37

he said, look, she's from

29:39

cleaves, you leave her alone.

29:41

Nice. So that, then yet,

29:44

gives a little sense of...

29:46

my upbringing, my community upbringing,

29:49

and I give it a

29:51

lot of credit for my

29:53

professional success that I grew

29:55

up in Cleves because I grew up

29:57

in a place where, and my

29:59

parents. I was taught by example

30:03

to always respect,

30:05

to always respect,

30:08

everyone. And also

30:10

to, you know, try to

30:12

do the right thing if

30:15

you can. Yeah. You

30:17

can't always know that,

30:19

but if you can, it's

30:21

in your power. And

30:23

so it formed me in

30:26

a way, as a litigator.

30:28

in terms of my ability

30:30

to talk to witnesses,

30:33

to talk to record

30:35

drivers, to talk to the

30:37

jury. All those things were

30:40

super important. And if I

30:42

had grown up in one

30:44

of those suburbs, I wouldn't

30:47

have had that same

30:49

toolkit. Now, I would have

30:51

had peers that I didn't

30:53

have. Yeah. When I went to

30:55

a girl's date, I was like,

30:57

wow. Girls

31:00

like me. Yeah. It was a

31:02

revelation. I had a

31:04

similar experience. I lived

31:07

in Western Pennsylvania as

31:09

I mentioned and my

31:12

through grade school and

31:15

middle school and the

31:17

first year of high school I

31:19

was the smartest kid

31:22

in school and but

31:24

that I mean smartest,

31:26

most academically successful. We

31:28

understand what we're talking about.

31:30

Yeah, well, but that's the

31:32

thing. Right, exactly. And my

31:34

best friend was half American

31:36

India and half Italian troublemaker.

31:39

He used to run his

31:41

trap line before school every

31:43

morning. He'd come in with

31:45

blood splattered on his pants

31:47

because he'd been clubbing raccoons

31:49

or whatever. You know, totally

31:51

different. world, but that kid

31:53

was smart and strong and

31:55

charismatic and got all the

31:57

girls and so it was a

32:00

And we were like a team, the

32:02

two of us, you know. And I

32:04

really learned that same

32:06

lesson that you're talking

32:08

about, which is that, yeah,

32:10

you can do well on

32:13

the exam. That doesn't make

32:15

you the smartest. It doesn't

32:17

make you the most successful

32:20

in lots of realms.

32:22

And then I moved

32:25

to Connecticut. There's a

32:27

real humbling experience. But

32:29

it was great to

32:31

have that dual perspective

32:33

on things, you know. I think it's

32:35

invaluable. Yeah, it really

32:37

is. Because it also, I

32:40

think it gives you some

32:42

humility. So you're talking to

32:44

someone, you're a litigator, you're

32:46

talking to someone on the

32:48

jury who works at the,

32:51

you know, 7-Eleven. It's not

32:53

hard for you to see

32:55

their humanity and for them

32:57

to know you're seeing it.

32:59

Right. And I wrote

33:01

this crazy quote

33:04

from Albert

33:06

Einstein about

33:08

empathy and

33:10

the importance to

33:13

empathy is

33:15

evil. And I

33:18

think... I think that's... Hannah,

33:20

aren't, she said that as

33:22

well. I just saw that

33:24

online. Maybe he took it

33:26

from her. And it was

33:28

paired up with Elon Musk

33:31

saying that empathy is the

33:33

tragic flaw of our civilization

33:35

or something. Right. Yeah. When she

33:37

had a lot of interesting

33:39

things to say. Right. Right.

33:41

Including the banality of evil.

33:43

Yeah. Which I guess is

33:45

a sort of major theme. Yeah. Yeah.

33:49

Those lessons are just important and

33:51

of course your experience in Connecticut

33:53

is also important and useful You

33:55

know one of the things that

33:57

we don't really teach people generally

33:59

and they do in the

34:02

military, but not generally, is

34:04

how to manage up. You

34:06

know, how do you, how

34:08

do you work with people

34:10

who have more power, more

34:12

privilege, more experience, or how

34:14

do you do that? How

34:16

do you do that effectively?

34:18

Yeah. And with not by

34:20

sucking up, obviously, that's not

34:22

it. But how to do

34:25

that. And those kind of

34:27

things give you that. ability.

34:29

Yeah, before we get into

34:31

your professional life, I don't

34:33

want to leave your mother

34:35

behind. She sounds like such

34:37

an interesting person. You mentioned

34:39

that you have had when

34:41

you were younger, you were

34:43

judgmental about some of her

34:45

life choices. Was that about

34:48

her career path? Yeah, solely

34:50

about her career path. It

34:52

was just, it was she

34:54

gave it all up. She

34:56

gave it all up. And

34:58

I felt that she was,

35:00

she could have been, my

35:02

mother was one of the

35:04

most, she could organize the

35:06

invasion of Europe. My mother

35:08

was one of the most

35:11

organized, forceful in a good

35:13

way. I don't mean like

35:15

a bully, you know, but

35:17

she really, she could see

35:19

the big pictures, she knew

35:21

how to do things. And

35:23

I, she was so smart.

35:25

And she's a really good

35:27

writer. I mean, she ran

35:29

our church newsletter. It was

35:31

really good. She ran what?

35:34

Our church newsletter. And it

35:36

was really good. Right. But

35:38

I felt like she wasted

35:40

her life. And unfortunately, I

35:42

told you that more than

35:44

one occasion. And it wasn't

35:46

just young. I mean, I

35:48

was young, but I was

35:50

old enough to know better.

35:52

I think. And finally she

35:54

said to me. She said

35:57

and said to me. 15

35:59

years earlier. I mean those

36:01

jobs were going away. Yeah.

36:03

And I. didn't know. I

36:05

couldn't get another job like

36:07

that. She stayed home with

36:09

her mother. Didn't go to

36:11

college. Everybody else went to

36:13

college. She didn't go to

36:15

college. She said I would

36:17

have had to start over

36:20

get those credentials. And it

36:22

wouldn't have been as good

36:24

a job as what I'd

36:26

had. And so I think

36:28

she was practical, but I

36:30

didn't. I didn't respect it

36:32

as I should have. And

36:34

I regret that. You know,

36:36

the adage, I think Jung

36:38

wrote about this, that we

36:40

live our parents' unlived lives?

36:43

It's a good one. Yeah.

36:45

It's a good one. Now

36:47

she transmitted to me, as

36:49

did my father, the belief

36:51

that, you know, I could

36:53

do pretty much anything. What

36:55

sounds like your mother took

36:57

herself seriously as an intellect.

36:59

She did. Right, which is

37:01

rare in those days, right?

37:03

That's interesting. It's a very

37:06

interesting inside and I think

37:08

that's rare and fair. And

37:10

she had friends who were

37:12

also substantive. She had friends

37:14

that they were just fine

37:16

and that's fine. It was

37:18

not, it was so complicated

37:20

for them to do that

37:22

dance. Yeah. However, I wasn't

37:24

going to do it. I

37:27

was not going to do it.

37:29

Well, that's it. Because you saw

37:32

the sacrifice she made, you saw

37:34

the injustice of the men coming

37:36

back and the women getting pushed

37:38

out of, you know, the places

37:40

they'd occupied successfully. And so for

37:43

you, it was like, no, I'm

37:45

going for it, I'm taking it.

37:47

You don't want to give it

37:49

to me, I'll take it. Yeah,

37:52

I had a... I just completely

37:54

repudiate it. I don't know how

37:56

old I was. Maybe, probably when

37:58

I got to law school. would

38:00

have been so it would have

38:03

been 1974 and I graduated from

38:05

out of state when I was

38:07

20 and then I became a

38:09

just volunteer and I did that.

38:11

Right, you went to Mexico? Mexico

38:14

was through out of state and

38:16

I was to school there for

38:18

two quarters, that's a lot, I

38:20

don't know, five months. And where

38:23

were you in Mexico? Chola in

38:25

the state of Puebla, in central

38:27

Mexico about... I don't

38:29

know, probably 75 miles from

38:31

Deafie. It was really, it

38:33

was, it was amazing. It

38:36

was a great experience, loved

38:38

the country. I went for

38:40

the first time when I

38:42

was 15 on a Spanish

38:44

trip for two weeks in

38:46

Central Mexico, which is extraordinary

38:48

to think that our village

38:50

and another school, suburban school,

38:52

said students and that's the

38:55

first time I got on

38:57

a plane when I was

38:59

15. Because of course people

39:01

didn't fly around like they

39:03

do. Yeah, and was it

39:05

your first time out of

39:07

the US? Canada. That doesn't

39:09

count. That's the 51st state

39:11

now, right? Yeah. I've actually

39:14

been to most of the

39:16

provinces in Canada, which is

39:18

not that common. I grew

39:20

up in a camping family,

39:22

so we did that. But

39:24

I loved Mexico, and I've

39:26

always felt like Mexico was

39:28

one of my true homes.

39:30

I just loved it. And

39:32

I did a lot of

39:35

professional stuff later in Mexico,

39:37

which I greatly enjoyed and

39:39

found interesting. Is when you

39:41

were a litigator? Well, most

39:43

of it I did. So

39:45

I was mostly a litigator

39:47

my whole career, but I've

39:49

done a lot of different

39:51

things. And one of them

39:54

was Governor Ann Richards. appointed

39:56

me to the Texas State

39:58

Board of Insurance to... change

40:01

insurance regulation in Texas, including

40:03

getting rid of a three-member

40:06

board, which is a ridiculous

40:08

structure. Three-member board and a

40:10

commissioner, awful time for people.

40:13

I was a division chief

40:15

of the Texas Tree General's

40:17

Office immediately proceeding. I had

40:20

to take a pay cut

40:22

to become a government officer.

40:24

Why did you do it?

40:30

Well, that's a great question.

40:32

I respected the governor. I

40:34

respected her commitment to moving

40:37

past what I call stamping

40:39

and stuffing, which is a

40:41

lot of what regulation is.

40:44

You get a form in,

40:46

you stamp it, you stuff

40:48

it in the computer, but

40:51

it's a metaphor I used.

40:53

And she was serious about

40:55

making the agency more responsive.

40:58

I'd been... for a couple

41:00

years an insurance company lawyer

41:02

in Minneapolis. And so I

41:05

knew a lot about insurance

41:07

from litigation. And it was

41:09

an opportunity and an honor

41:12

had to go through Senate

41:14

confirmation, which is a little

41:16

bit like crawling on your

41:19

stomach on broken, which is

41:21

a little bit like crawling

41:23

on your stomach on broken

41:26

glass. Oh, so interesting. You

41:28

know, you're handler. There are

41:30

no handlers in the room.

41:33

You have to meet with

41:35

every senator separately. And there

41:38

are no handlers in the

41:40

room on either side. So

41:42

these are state senators, right?

41:45

But it's Texas, which is

41:47

the size of many countries.

41:49

So these are a pretty...

41:52

There's a huge insurance market.

41:54

Yeah. Huge, huge insurance. I

41:56

mean, I assume they've got

41:59

ties to the insurance industry

42:01

and... Some people are saying,

42:03

no, we don't want this

42:06

lady, she's two. Yeah, it

42:08

was interesting, ultimately decided not

42:10

to oppose me. Partly because

42:13

it was a real benefit

42:15

for the governor and others

42:17

could say, she's represented insurance

42:20

companies, she sued insurance companies,

42:22

and I'd come off this

42:24

huge, I don't know if

42:27

you're familiar with the. CGL

42:29

crisis, the commercial general liability

42:31

crisis in the 80s. But

42:34

there actually was a conspiracy,

42:36

an agreement among competitors, to

42:38

raise rates, reduce coverage, and

42:41

change the civil justice system.

42:43

It happened. No. And we

42:45

had a big image trust

42:48

case. All the states, all

42:50

the states, were in it.

42:52

But we found ours in

42:55

Texas instead of in federal

42:57

court. And I don't know

42:59

how from all you are

43:02

with. federal court jurisdiction but

43:04

it's it's pretty easy to

43:06

bounce a case on a

43:09

motion to dismiss without getting

43:11

to the merits and they

43:13

all got bounced and they

43:16

ultimately got to the United

43:18

States Supreme Court it got

43:20

sent back but we went

43:23

ahead with they couldn't bounce

43:25

ours really I mean we

43:28

had because you'd filed it

43:30

in Texas. About 15 of

43:32

the largest law firms in

43:35

the United States, always in

43:37

London, all the big carriers.

43:39

It was huge, massive litigation,

43:42

and I had a team

43:44

of, well, including secretaries and

43:46

paralegals, a team of about

43:49

20 people working on it.

43:51

So it was, it was

43:53

really interesting. And who were

43:56

you representing? Who were you

43:58

representing? state of Texas against

44:00

insurance? Right, that commercial general

44:03

liability leaders and insurance. services

44:05

office which is their centralized

44:07

aggregate office. And did you

44:10

win that case? We settled

44:12

it on very good terms.

44:14

And did that money go

44:17

to the state? The money

44:19

went to invest for it

44:21

first for investigative costs. I

44:24

made the calculation and so

44:26

after the other states got

44:28

bounced on the 12B motion.

44:31

I made the calculation that

44:33

just to make sure that

44:35

this was not a political

44:38

liability for the attorney general

44:40

state in any way that

44:42

we needed to do what

44:45

I call the blue light

44:47

special. And I offered to,

44:49

with the approval of the

44:52

attorney general, of course, and

44:54

my supervisor, the deputy for

44:56

litigation. I are executive

44:59

at that time. Anyway, I

45:01

said, okay, Boolight Special, the

45:03

first two who come to

45:05

the door was settled with

45:08

you for $900,000 each in

45:10

costs and structural relief. So

45:12

you have to agree to

45:14

cooperate with this. You know,

45:16

it was kind of a

45:19

typical civil plea deal. if

45:21

you will. And of course

45:23

there were two takers. So

45:25

then I had pretty significantly

45:27

insulated the office from criticism.

45:29

And then when we did

45:32

settle, eventually I think it

45:34

was for $6.6 million total

45:36

lots of structural relief again,

45:38

which was the most important

45:40

thing. It was a structural

45:43

case. It wasn't a money

45:45

case. But also we, buddy

45:47

for. training for actuaries at

45:49

the Texas Department of Insurance,

45:51

various things. like that, that

45:53

tried to be creative, but

45:56

all for the public, yes,

45:58

all for the public good,

46:00

was what it was for.

46:02

So it was, I was

46:04

coming off of that when

46:07

the governor asked me to

46:09

do that. I see. And

46:11

it gave me an opportunity

46:13

to try to actually help

46:15

implement some of the things

46:17

I thought should be done.

46:20

Some of those we were

46:22

good at and some of

46:24

them we weren't good at.

46:26

The talent gap. for

46:29

what you can recruit for

46:31

government work at the government

46:33

salary between what the industry

46:36

can have is very difficult

46:38

and not talked about enough.

46:40

Yeah. So that was, that

46:43

was it. How did that?

46:45

And that seems to be

46:47

built into the system intentionally,

46:50

right? I mean, as far

46:52

as regulation of Wall Street,

46:54

regulation of, you know, industry,

46:57

like the regulators. You

46:59

know the people with the

47:01

same talent and background and

47:04

education and so on if

47:06

they're looking at a starting

47:08

salary of 200 grand working

47:10

You know private industry versus

47:12

75 grand working for the

47:15

government like Occasionally you'll have

47:17

someone who takes a 75

47:19

grand just because they're very

47:21

motivated by a sense of

47:23

justice, but generally One of

47:26

the good... It's like a

47:28

public defender, right? Like, you

47:30

don't necessarily get the best

47:32

lawyers. Well, you can. You

47:34

can, but then they're motivated

47:37

by something aside for money,

47:39

right? Right. And that's where,

47:41

that's where that intersection is

47:43

important, to try to figure

47:45

out how to inspire people,

47:48

how to lead them to

47:50

be motivated by... But the

47:52

difficulty is that if somebody

47:54

If you look at, and

47:57

I don't know the data,

47:59

I don't know what in

48:01

my head, but if you

48:03

look at, what is it,

48:05

40% of people in the

48:08

United States don't have a

48:10

college, adults don't have the

48:12

college education, and you'll look

48:14

at what their average earnings

48:16

are compared to the average

48:19

earnings of people who do

48:21

have a college education. If

48:23

you're making, if you're struggling

48:25

to get by on 40K,

48:27

35K a year, the idea

48:30

that you're tax money. is

48:32

going to go for somebody

48:34

that's going to make twice

48:36

what you make is already

48:38

a bridge too far. That's

48:41

the complexity. I think that's

48:43

reflected by the structural disconnect

48:45

between, I'll say, the haves

48:47

and the have-nots. Most of

48:50

the, in my experience, most

48:52

of the people who didn't

48:54

have much worked really hard.

48:56

And they usually worked more

48:58

than one job. Right. And

49:01

they often did it really

49:03

well. They just weren't rewarded

49:05

for it because it was

49:07

a low reward thing to

49:09

do and to kind of

49:12

circle back to my mother.

49:14

And her life, I don't

49:16

think I met a woman

49:18

that I thought had a

49:20

life worth living until I

49:23

was in law school. So,

49:25

you know, I just didn't

49:27

want any of those choices.

49:29

I was never going to

49:32

be a teacher, a librarian,

49:34

a nurse. Any of those

49:36

things that are low pay,

49:38

low status, low power in

49:40

our society and almost in

49:43

time. And we're at that

49:45

time almost in Charlie limited

49:47

to women. Now what's happened

49:49

is just been a migration

49:51

of men into those fields

49:54

and that's been very helpful

49:56

in raising the boat. for

49:58

everyone. I mean you can

50:00

talk about disparities with being

50:02

a superintendent or principal or

50:05

whatever but nonetheless it raised

50:07

it raised the boat and

50:09

that also happened in government

50:11

work. where men and women

50:13

who were looking for a

50:16

better work life balance, better

50:18

lifestyle, made those choices and

50:20

so you were able to

50:22

actually get superstars that made

50:25

those choices. And that's been

50:27

a really good development in

50:29

terms of the ability to

50:31

deliver services. Where do you

50:33

think your militant? Militism, is

50:36

that the word? It sounds

50:38

like you were quite militant

50:40

about what you just said.

50:42

Like I wasn't going to

50:44

be a nurse or I

50:47

was going to have leverage,

50:49

I was going to have

50:51

power, I was going to

50:53

have authority. Where does that

50:55

come from? Do you think

50:58

it is a reaction to

51:00

your mother getting pushed out

51:02

of what could have been

51:04

a different trajectory? I think

51:07

that's part of it. I

51:09

think I am very empathetic.

51:11

So the injustice of it

51:13

bothered me a great deal.

51:15

But also, you know, you

51:18

see throughout history women that

51:20

make choices to go across

51:22

the Gobi Desert on a

51:24

camel. And this is nothing

51:26

like that, but they make,

51:29

you know, I'll say gender

51:31

bending that maybe shouldn't be

51:33

a term that means much

51:35

today, but... to make choices

51:37

that were outside the mainstream.

51:40

Right. And, I mean, far

51:42

more dramatic, difficult choices than

51:44

the choices I make. Far

51:46

more. They're not the same.

51:48

So I think that I

51:51

was a voracious reader. I

51:53

read about all the heroines.

51:55

Amelia Earhart. Oh, sure. Margaret

51:57

Meade. Joan of Arc. Yeah.

52:02

Mary Queen Scots, it's probably

52:04

not the best choice. But

52:06

I read about, I read

52:08

about women who, the women

52:10

who settled in my frontier,

52:12

the women who fought alongside

52:14

their husbands in various armies

52:16

during, I read, I read

52:18

a lot about Native American

52:20

culture. And there was, of

52:22

course, that's very, that river

52:25

valley there was just a

52:27

will. But lots of different

52:29

tribes, and really the only

52:31

tribes that made a really

52:33

coordinated stand, tried to make

52:35

a coordinated stand against the

52:37

white settlers. You're talking about

52:39

in Ohio? Yeah, so in

52:41

Ohio. So who would that

52:43

be the Fox? Yeah, the

52:45

Fox, the Pawnee. Right. The

52:47

kind of out of the

52:49

Iroquois nation there. Yeah, the

52:51

Iroquois more intellectual and more

52:53

East North. Right. So. And

52:55

there was none of that

52:57

culture around where I grew

53:00

up. Yeah. But it's in

53:02

the land. It's in the

53:04

land and it's in the,

53:06

it's, and I was just

53:08

fascinated by it, you know,

53:10

I read many captive stories.

53:12

Yeah, me too. I love

53:14

that stuff. I felt it

53:16

in Western Pennsylvania as a

53:18

kid. I mean, it was

53:20

a pretty industrial place and

53:22

but... I spent a lot

53:24

of time in the woods

53:26

and I just felt the

53:28

presence of those people. I

53:30

felt a lot of time

53:32

in the woods. Yeah. At

53:35

two, three hundred acre farms

53:37

across the road from our

53:39

house and farms there, southern

53:41

Ohio are hills and great

53:43

vine forests. Yeah. Wonderful places.

53:45

A lot of creeks. Yeah,

53:47

a lot of creeks. And

53:49

I was allowed to go

53:51

by myself as long as

53:53

I took. the bird dog

53:55

with me. So I had

53:57

a lot of... You know,

53:59

nobody has that kind of

54:01

free range time anymore, but

54:03

I did have. Do you

54:05

have siblings? I'm the oldest

54:07

of four. Of four. We're

54:10

very close. So I'm sorry

54:12

to keep going back to

54:14

your mother, but I'm really

54:16

fascinated by her experience and

54:18

how it energized your life

54:20

in a way. Like, would

54:22

it be fair to say

54:24

that you felt... Some

54:27

sense of humiliation on her

54:29

behalf? No. No. Nobody would

54:31

humiliate my mother. But why

54:33

were you so angry at

54:35

her? She stepped away from

54:37

that life to be a

54:39

mother to you and your

54:41

three siblings and a wife

54:43

and like there's dignity in

54:45

that right? There's total dignity

54:47

in that. So I think

54:49

she was representational and not

54:51

personal because she did support

54:53

me. and encourage me to

54:55

do things and to not

54:57

be bound by barriers. So

54:59

I think, I don't, it's

55:01

hard to tell. The word

55:03

anger is a complicated word.

55:05

I don't, I don't feel

55:08

like I was so much

55:10

angry with her as I

55:12

was frustrated with her. But

55:14

you could have done this,

55:16

you could have done that.

55:18

And she said, well, I

55:20

made my choice. It almost

55:22

sounds like she made a

55:24

sacrifice for you and maybe

55:26

there was a sense of

55:28

obligation that you resented or

55:30

something. I didn't feel the

55:32

obligation even. I'm projecting, okay?

55:34

Yeah, I think you are.

55:36

Because I feel this way

55:38

about my father. I feel

55:40

like my father made compromises

55:42

that I would not and

55:44

did not make in my

55:46

life. But I also recognize

55:48

he made them partly for

55:50

me so that I would

55:52

have the opportunity not to

55:54

make those compromises, you know?

55:56

And I was kind of

55:58

judgmental of him as well.

56:00

I think the better the

56:02

wet the frame that I

56:04

see it in is in

56:06

a broader social frame and

56:08

I was Just I wasn't

56:11

angry. I just wasn't gonna

56:13

play that game. I wasn't

56:15

gonna do that I was

56:17

gonna do something else and

56:19

I was gonna I wanted

56:21

to have a life of

56:23

adventure and impact That's what

56:25

I wanted to have and

56:27

I wasn't I didn't believe

56:29

that living what was a

56:31

a conventional female life at

56:33

that time would be. Now

56:35

that's arrogant. You know, teachers

56:37

have incredible impact on students.

56:39

And nurses. And nurses. In

56:41

your worst moment, it's a

56:43

nurse. It's a nurse who's

56:45

there with you and a

56:47

librarian. I love books and

56:49

librarians are treasures. So it

56:51

was, I didn't disrespect any

56:53

of them to be really

56:55

clear and I didn't disrespect

56:57

my mother. I respected my

56:59

mother a lot. Right. She,

57:01

well she was, and she

57:03

didn't try to make me

57:05

into her image at all.

57:07

I mean there were certain

57:09

things we were expected to

57:11

do, you know, dress a

57:13

certain way, be respectful in

57:16

a certain way, when my

57:18

parents would have, we had

57:20

a small modest house, but

57:22

they would have big parties

57:24

and we were expected to.

57:26

come out and make conversation

57:29

and pass appetizers and we

57:31

were expected to do that.

57:33

I remember those days, bridge

57:35

parties. I grew up in

57:37

bridge party. Yeah, all of

57:40

it. All of it. And

57:42

I know my mother knew,

57:44

she died a couple years

57:46

ago, but I know she

57:48

knew that I did respect

57:51

it. A couple of years

57:53

ago. Yeah. So she got...

57:55

She had the long run.

57:57

Oh yeah, my mom and

57:59

dad both. My dad was

58:02

93 and she was 92.

58:04

Wow. And they were, let's

58:06

see, I think four years

58:08

apart in age. Anyway, yeah,

58:10

so I think, it's your

58:13

question, was she an impetus?

58:15

I think it's a really

58:17

good question, and I think

58:19

in part she was in

58:21

impetus. And she was always

58:24

proud of me. professionally

58:30

I'm modeling myself on my father.

58:33

How to be in the world

58:35

with integrity and to take care

58:37

of your people, to take care

58:39

of the people who counted on

58:41

you, to do the right thing,

58:44

to be prepared to walk every

58:46

day if that's what it takes.

58:48

And of course when I say

58:50

that's an ultra-domatic way to say

58:52

it, but it's a mindset, means

58:55

you're not a captive and you

58:57

have agency. And you have agency.

58:59

And you can decide, is this

59:01

too close to the line? Is

59:03

this over the line? It's funny,

59:06

you say, that too close to

59:08

the line, over the line, I'm

59:10

picturing him in World War II.

59:12

I mean, I could talk about

59:14

your parents all day. I think

59:17

they sound like such interesting people,

59:19

and you know, I wonder what

59:21

their marriage was like, I wonder...

59:23

They had a wonderful marriage. They

59:25

had a wonderful marriage. They really...

59:30

I mean, it's that

59:32

generation, right, like to

59:34

begin your marriage with

59:36

a man who is

59:38

deeply traumatized, who has

59:40

just, who thought he

59:42

was going to die

59:44

in Europe, I'm sure,

59:46

they all do, right?

59:48

They all just give

59:50

up. A lot of

59:52

them did die. A

59:54

lot of them did

59:56

die. So you sort

59:58

of like grieve your

1:00:00

own death in advance,

1:00:02

right? So you're not

1:00:04

worried about it every

1:00:06

day? And all the

1:00:08

physical suffering. I mean,

1:00:10

he was down, my

1:00:12

father was six foot

1:00:14

one and he was

1:00:16

down to 130 pounds.

1:00:18

Yeah. So. Yeah. But

1:00:20

just, so psychologically, I'm

1:00:22

picturing to begin, you

1:00:24

know, normally when you

1:00:26

get married, you're gonna

1:00:28

have kids, that's a

1:00:30

beginning. That's this very

1:00:32

green. springtime wildflowers and

1:00:34

bluebirds. That's how they

1:00:36

approached it. And they

1:00:38

lived, there's a small

1:00:40

town, Lawrenceburg, just over

1:00:42

the Indiana line, which

1:00:44

is bigger than Cleves,

1:00:46

where a family doctor,

1:00:48

dentist, lawyer, etc. lived.

1:00:50

Because we wouldn't want

1:00:52

to go to the

1:00:54

suburbs for those things.

1:00:56

We went over there.

1:00:58

It was more convenient,

1:01:00

closer, everything. But they

1:01:02

ran up upstairs apartment.

1:01:04

And then moved to

1:01:06

Cleves and rented another

1:01:08

upstairs apartment, making really

1:01:10

strong, strong family connections

1:01:12

with the people in

1:01:14

both cases who were,

1:01:16

that are landlords. And

1:01:18

Cleves gave them a

1:01:20

chance to build a

1:01:22

life they wanted to

1:01:24

build. They wanted to

1:01:26

raise their family in

1:01:28

a good environment, in

1:01:30

a good environment. in

1:01:32

a place where they

1:01:34

could be part of

1:01:36

the community and they

1:01:38

were committed to that.

1:01:40

I mean, they ran

1:01:42

support groups for spouses

1:01:44

of people had strokes.

1:01:46

I mean, the amount

1:01:48

of community service was

1:01:50

really extraordinary. And they

1:01:54

I think even joy. Yeah. And

1:01:56

I don't mean to keep harping

1:01:59

on your mother, but it'll... So

1:02:01

it occurs to me that there

1:02:03

wouldn't have been the time and

1:02:06

energy to devote to those community

1:02:08

projects if she had been off

1:02:10

trying to maintain a professional career.

1:02:13

Unquestionably. I mean, I didn't do,

1:02:15

I didn't do, I didn't do,

1:02:17

I was on boards, okay, and

1:02:20

they were important boards, good organizations,

1:02:22

and I'm proud of that work,

1:02:24

but I didn't do any of

1:02:27

the real work, you know, the

1:02:29

real work that my mother. And

1:02:31

father did. Yeah, there's so many

1:02:33

different ways to have impact. Right.

1:02:36

Right. Like you were, you were

1:02:38

having impact at a state structural

1:02:40

level. Right. They were having impact

1:02:43

with the people who lived down

1:02:45

the road. Exactly. Yeah. And they're

1:02:47

both legitimate. Well, and I really,

1:02:50

I know, my mother and my

1:02:52

father knew how much I respected

1:02:54

that work. And I. I

1:02:59

really respect the work

1:03:01

that they did. And

1:03:03

as I get older,

1:03:06

I think that it's

1:03:08

so hard to measure

1:03:10

big impact. I think

1:03:12

the reality is our

1:03:15

most important impacts are

1:03:17

small impacts. And it's

1:03:19

that moment of kindness

1:03:22

and seeing somebody. is

1:03:24

that moment of, I

1:03:26

mean really seeing them,

1:03:29

not just saying good

1:03:31

morning, walk by, but

1:03:33

really see them. Yeah.

1:03:35

And it's that moment

1:03:38

of emotional commitment to

1:03:40

the contact. A few

1:03:42

years ago I decided,

1:03:45

so it Austin's a

1:03:47

party town, right, so

1:03:49

the streets are dirty.

1:03:51

And the business alliance

1:03:54

pays people with... carts

1:03:57

and buckets to go on

1:03:59

the street and clean it.

1:04:01

pick up trash, clean the

1:04:03

sweep and everything. I always

1:04:05

said good. I always said

1:04:07

good morning to people when

1:04:10

I passed. I walked to

1:04:12

work, which was about two

1:04:14

and a half miles away.

1:04:16

It was great. But I

1:04:18

thought, OK, I need to

1:04:20

be more intentional about this,

1:04:23

because this is really important

1:04:25

with you doing. And they

1:04:27

seem invisible to most people.

1:04:29

So I just, when I

1:04:31

go by somebody, I'd say,

1:04:34

good morning. I didn't say

1:04:36

the same thing every time,

1:04:38

but making our town cleaner,

1:04:40

making it better. Thank you

1:04:42

so much. And they would

1:04:44

just be almost always, they

1:04:47

would be like gobsmacked that

1:04:49

someone saw them. Yeah. Actually,

1:04:51

saw them and saw their

1:04:53

effort. And so I ask

1:04:55

over time, I've over time

1:04:57

escalated that. It's one

1:05:00

of my favorite things to

1:05:02

do is to Say thank

1:05:04

you and really mean it

1:05:06

to recognize That somebody's done

1:05:08

something that they're fast. They're

1:05:10

smart. They work hard whatever

1:05:12

it is I remember I

1:05:14

was living in Manhattan in

1:05:16

the 80s It was pretty

1:05:18

rough time. Yeah, it was

1:05:20

I went to Manhattan a

1:05:22

fair mountain in the 80s

1:05:24

We may have passed each

1:05:26

other on the street. But

1:05:28

I remember I was talking

1:05:30

to a homeless guy one

1:05:32

time and we were talking

1:05:34

about his experience of being

1:05:36

homeless and all that. And

1:05:38

he said, you know, I

1:05:40

said something about like, you

1:05:42

know, what percentage of people

1:05:44

who walk by actually give

1:05:46

you money or something like

1:05:48

that. And he said, you

1:05:50

know, man, it's not really

1:05:52

about the money. He said,

1:05:54

it's it's the people who

1:05:56

don't make eye contact. He

1:05:58

said that's what really gets

1:06:00

You can get by without

1:06:02

any money, but when they

1:06:04

don't even make eye contact,

1:06:06

then you start to feel

1:06:08

like you don't exist. He

1:06:10

said, I'd rather have someone

1:06:12

look at my eyes and

1:06:14

say, you know, good morning,

1:06:16

then drop a dollar in

1:06:19

the cup and not look

1:06:21

at me. That really, that's

1:06:23

always stuck with me. It's

1:06:25

massive, you know, right? Recognizing

1:06:27

other people's humanity. is

1:06:29

this, is probably, possibly, the

1:06:31

single most important thing we

1:06:33

can do. Yeah. And I

1:06:36

was raised to do that,

1:06:38

you know, I give my

1:06:40

parents credit for that. And

1:06:42

isn't it crazy that, you

1:06:44

know, we're talking about it

1:06:46

as if it's a, it's

1:06:49

a special thing? Yeah. to

1:06:51

recognize someone's humanity, like what

1:06:53

could be more basic and

1:06:55

instinctive than that, you know?

1:06:57

And yet it feels to

1:07:00

me like the culture is

1:07:02

constantly pushing us in the

1:07:04

other direction away from each

1:07:06

other. I think that's exactly

1:07:08

right. I think that's one

1:07:10

of the things that a

1:07:13

town like Crestone actually can

1:07:15

provide is that opportunity. to

1:07:17

recognize and support each other's

1:07:19

humanity-wide not necessarily agreeing with

1:07:21

everything you say. Now there's

1:07:24

a lot of, there's a

1:07:26

shocking amount of negativity here.

1:07:28

I never used to look

1:07:30

at Facebook, but now I

1:07:32

have to, because it's the

1:07:34

only way I know what's

1:07:37

going on. It's the worst

1:07:39

part of Crestown, unfortunately. Yeah.

1:07:41

You just have to not

1:07:43

let it become representative. I've

1:07:45

gone through this whole cycle

1:07:48

myself. I got really down

1:07:50

on the place when I

1:07:52

started reading the Facebook thing

1:07:54

and then I have to

1:07:56

keep telling myself. That's like

1:07:59

4% of the people. Right.

1:08:01

It is not representative. And

1:08:03

I absolutely believe that. But

1:08:05

I'm also struck by. how

1:08:07

quickly people can come to

1:08:09

judgment without all the information.

1:08:12

Yeah. And not even close

1:08:14

to that much of the

1:08:16

information. And we just don't

1:08:18

know what other people carry.

1:08:20

We just don't know what's

1:08:23

in their life. But it

1:08:25

is, you know, electronics allows

1:08:27

a removal of insult. Which

1:08:29

is not helpful. If I

1:08:31

have to say something ugly

1:08:33

to your face, I might

1:08:36

think twice. Saying something ugly

1:08:38

in an anonymous, or even

1:08:40

a not, even a signpost,

1:08:42

but is easier. It's too

1:08:44

easy. Too easy. Too easy.

1:08:47

Way too easy. Yeah. It's

1:08:49

funny how it sort of

1:08:51

makes hate easy but love

1:08:53

harder. Mm-hmm. Because hate comes

1:08:55

from separation. Yeah. Alienation. That's

1:08:58

why, in my opinion, that's

1:09:01

why. Yeah. You know, my,

1:09:03

I don't know how much

1:09:05

we've talked about my books

1:09:07

and research and all that,

1:09:09

but one of the things

1:09:11

that I've learned thinking about

1:09:13

hunter gather societies and comparing

1:09:16

them to ours for so

1:09:18

long is how much is

1:09:20

just an effective scale, right,

1:09:22

when you have You know,

1:09:24

Stalin supposedly said one death

1:09:26

is a tragedy, a million

1:09:29

is a statistic, something along

1:09:31

those lines. And I feel

1:09:33

like that sort of structural

1:09:35

insight applies to society in

1:09:37

so many different ways, right?

1:09:39

It's very, you know, as

1:09:41

you said, I can't, it's

1:09:44

very hard to say something

1:09:46

insulting to a person's face.

1:09:48

It's also very hard to

1:09:50

steal from someone that you

1:09:52

know, right? But it's very

1:09:54

easy to steal from strangers

1:09:57

if it's just putting a

1:09:59

different number. into a spreadsheet

1:10:01

somewhere and, you know, oh,

1:10:03

let's just increase the, you

1:10:05

know, decrease the payouts and

1:10:07

increase the, you know, the

1:10:09

costs of this insurance policy

1:10:12

or something, whatever, it's good

1:10:14

business. And you don't think

1:10:16

about the effects on people

1:10:18

because you don't know them.

1:10:20

It's almost blameless in that

1:10:22

sense, you know, like who do you

1:10:25

blame? So, who do you blame? Not

1:10:27

that many of them, but the best

1:10:29

businesses actually think about that and

1:10:31

take that calculation into effect.

1:10:33

But then their share price

1:10:35

goes down, because they're not

1:10:37

as good an investment as

1:10:39

the business that doesn't. United

1:10:41

Health, the guy who just got

1:10:44

shot. Right now here, you're an

1:10:46

expert on insurance. I know I'm

1:10:48

not going to get you to

1:10:50

say that the CEO deserves to

1:10:53

die. No, I won't say that.

1:10:55

But who does? Where does responsibility

1:10:57

lie? People are dying because of

1:10:59

decisions that are being made in

1:11:01

that boardroom. Lots of people. Unquestionably.

1:11:04

So now, if a general makes

1:11:06

a decision on the battlefield

1:11:08

that results in thousands of

1:11:11

deaths, that general is a

1:11:13

legitimate target of retribution

1:11:16

according to the rules

1:11:18

of war. Right. Why can a

1:11:20

CEO of an insurance company

1:11:23

make a decision that results

1:11:25

in thousands of deaths? But

1:11:27

he's not a legitimate target

1:11:30

of retribution. Well, we

1:11:32

have different rules for war.

1:11:34

I'll start with that. We have

1:11:36

the civilized world has different

1:11:39

rules for war, which are

1:11:41

mostly not being followed at

1:11:43

this point about non-combatants,

1:11:46

about non-combatants. collateral

1:11:49

damage. Yeah. Hospitals being safe

1:11:52

zones or those are a

1:11:54

few examples. Cutting off aid

1:11:57

to refugees. Right. All of

1:11:59

those things are... outside of, or

1:12:01

maybe not all, but certainly

1:12:03

some of them are

1:12:05

outside the bounds of

1:12:07

Geneva Convention and the

1:12:09

Hague Convention, you know, we

1:12:12

can talk about all these

1:12:14

different rules. To circle

1:12:16

back to my dad for

1:12:18

a minute, it was very

1:12:20

interesting when at the end of

1:12:22

the war, German, German's... soldiers

1:12:24

were looking for anybody to

1:12:27

surrender to because the Russians

1:12:29

were advancing and they wanted to

1:12:31

escape the Russians and wanted to

1:12:33

be held by the Americans. And

1:12:35

you know my dad had won

1:12:37

I guess Hope Italian was led

1:12:39

by major surrender to him and

1:12:42

he's like he didn't really want

1:12:44

to surrender to a staff sergeant

1:12:46

which my dad was at that

1:12:48

point. But that was his option.

1:12:50

She said look you want to

1:12:52

surrender? I'm it. So they did.

1:12:54

But they were making those

1:12:57

kind of choices,

1:13:00

those hard

1:13:02

choices, to

1:13:04

figure out what

1:13:06

the lesser of

1:13:08

the evil is,

1:13:11

right? So it's...

1:13:16

You know, in some ways

1:13:18

it's really complicated, but

1:13:20

in other ways it's

1:13:22

really not complicated

1:13:25

in my mind. You can make

1:13:27

mistakes. You can make

1:13:29

the wrong judgment. You

1:13:31

can make decisions for

1:13:34

the wrong reason. We all do

1:13:36

all of those things. But

1:13:38

if mostly your tenant

1:13:40

is right action, then

1:13:42

you're going to make

1:13:44

fewer of those. But

1:13:47

will you be successful in

1:13:49

the business world? So I

1:13:51

don't, I think the answer

1:13:53

is yes, depending on how

1:13:55

you define success, right? I

1:13:57

mean, Henry Ford said. We

1:14:00

need to price our cars at a

1:14:02

price where people can buy our product

1:14:04

right and that's how and they went

1:14:06

to mass Well, we also we have to

1:14:08

pay our workers enough to afford our

1:14:11

cars Yeah, and that corollary is

1:14:13

super important that you just brought

1:14:15

up right and that was that

1:14:17

was good business I don't have

1:14:19

an anti-business attitude didn't you litigate

1:14:21

against I think Tom was telling

1:14:23

me this the other day Tom

1:14:25

brags about you a lot, you

1:14:27

know And he was telling me

1:14:30

that you worked on cases, was

1:14:32

it the town car, Lincoln Town

1:14:34

car, that was designed in such

1:14:36

a way that the gas tank

1:14:38

was behind the axle, so if

1:14:40

you got rear-ended it burst into

1:14:42

flames and the doors couldn't be

1:14:44

opened and you roasted to death.

1:14:47

Yeah, it's a big pinto. They

1:14:49

were a big pinto, yeah. Apparently

1:14:51

the Tesla has a similar design flaw.

1:14:53

Yeah, I don't, I saw, I was... Priv

1:14:56

privileged to be in a

1:14:58

partner in an automotive products

1:15:01

liability litigation firm.

1:15:03

And the senior partner,

1:15:05

the two senior partners, David

1:15:08

Perry and Renee Haas, David

1:15:10

was the first person to

1:15:12

get a hundred million dollar

1:15:14

verdict in Texas back in,

1:15:16

I guess, the early 80s. Which was

1:15:18

a long time ago. That was

1:15:21

a lot of money back

1:15:23

then. Was that the Enron

1:15:25

situation? No, no. It was

1:15:27

a, it was the same

1:15:29

Panther platform. So

1:15:31

car, their car platforms

1:15:34

and the Crown Vic, the

1:15:36

town car, the Grand Marquis,

1:15:38

they were all part of the

1:15:40

same. And they were very

1:15:42

similar to the Pinto,

1:15:44

the Maverick. And this

1:15:47

was a wealthy car dealer who

1:15:49

got, I think, I'm not sure if

1:15:51

it was a Maverick, but this one

1:15:53

of the smaller cars for

1:15:55

his daughter's 16th birthday and

1:15:58

she was rented in. And

1:16:00

she was burning alive. Perfect

1:16:03

case, because he was selling

1:16:05

the cars that killed his

1:16:07

daughter, right? Right. So is

1:16:09

it true? I mean, I've,

1:16:11

for years, since Ralph Nader

1:16:13

and, you know, I've accepted

1:16:15

the depiction that the

1:16:17

corporations look at something like

1:16:19

that and say it would

1:16:22

cost us more money to

1:16:24

change the design than we're

1:16:26

going to lose in lawsuits

1:16:28

in lawsuits. from people who

1:16:30

are killed by this design,

1:16:32

so we keep the design.

1:16:34

Is that actually true?

1:16:36

Well, let's say... To some

1:16:39

extent, yes. Just some extent,

1:16:41

no. You know, life and thought

1:16:43

processes are not so clean.

1:16:46

It's more like, oh, we're not...

1:16:48

It's more like, well,

1:16:50

this is still a

1:16:52

really good product, quote

1:16:54

unquote. There's a big

1:16:56

market for it. And

1:16:58

we think that we've

1:17:00

done things, countermeasures, whatever,

1:17:02

whatever, to make it

1:17:04

reasonable to sell this.

1:17:06

And the numbers aren't

1:17:09

that great, after all. I

1:17:11

mean, the numbers of deaths

1:17:14

and injuries are not huge,

1:17:16

quote unquote. So there is

1:17:18

a, there is a, there is

1:17:20

a, Momentum

1:17:23

is strong, right? To not

1:17:25

move forward. Momentum, you can

1:17:28

stay at risk or move

1:17:30

forward. Fastane at rest, inertia,

1:17:32

is inertia, I think,

1:17:34

is very important if you're

1:17:37

looking at how big, any

1:17:39

big entity, whether it's government

1:17:42

or business, whatever, how

1:17:44

they work. And so the Crown

1:17:46

Vic was the number one

1:17:48

law enforcement vehicle people,

1:17:50

you know, cops loved it. For

1:17:52

a long time, the fact that

1:17:55

people were burning alive in it

1:17:57

was, they may not, you may not

1:17:59

know any. that happened to. You

1:18:01

may not know of anybody

1:18:03

in your state that happened

1:18:05

to. And therefore you think,

1:18:07

well, this is a Crown Vicky.

1:18:09

They have lots of, a lot

1:18:11

of officers love those vehicles.

1:18:14

They like the rear wheel drive.

1:18:16

They liked it. They were fast

1:18:18

and powerful. And they were used

1:18:20

to them. So the people burning

1:18:22

in the back seat were

1:18:24

the guys in handcuffs. Most

1:18:26

of them were, but mostly it

1:18:29

wasn't. Mostly it was

1:18:31

police officers. Most of

1:18:33

them would be like, the

1:18:35

thing is, the doors jammed. Yeah.

1:18:38

So you can't get out. Yeah.

1:18:40

And the fire is very,

1:18:42

very, very rapid. So, you

1:18:44

know, I took the deposition

1:18:47

of a, uh, Deputy Sheriff,

1:18:49

somewhere central Texas.

1:18:51

I don't remember the county.

1:18:54

But... He was re-rended

1:18:57

by Coke Truck, and

1:19:00

he got out, and he

1:19:02

was not badly burnt.

1:19:04

His hair was singed,

1:19:07

his face was burnt

1:19:09

a little bit, his

1:19:11

hands were burnt a

1:19:14

little bit, but he was

1:19:16

able to kick his way

1:19:18

out of the offside and

1:19:21

get out and roll. And

1:19:24

there was... a

1:19:26

court reporter who was a little

1:19:28

large and he said you know

1:19:30

if it if I had been that

1:19:32

court reporter I'd be dead right

1:19:35

she couldn't she couldn't have

1:19:37

gotten out of the seat belt

1:19:39

I had to go under the seat

1:19:41

belt oh because it was jammed right

1:19:43

the doors jammed and then get

1:19:46

out that window you know so he

1:19:48

gets he ends up I

1:19:50

think kicking actually kicking the

1:19:52

door loose from the door I

1:19:54

remember that story and I

1:19:56

talked to, so we represented

1:19:59

a lot of those cases. We

1:20:02

did a lot of those cases

1:20:04

and I took a lot of those

1:20:06

depositions and I don't

1:20:08

know if you've heard of

1:20:10

Jason Schecterlee. He was

1:20:13

an Arizona police officer

1:20:15

who was extremely badly

1:20:18

burned and we worked with

1:20:20

his local counsel in

1:20:22

that case. Jason's face was

1:20:25

completely melted off

1:20:27

and rebuilt. And what's

1:20:29

the opposing counsel's

1:20:32

argument? We didn't know

1:20:34

this was happening or we

1:20:36

knew it was happening, but

1:20:38

there's nothing we could do

1:20:41

about it. Like, how do you

1:20:43

defend against this? Social

1:20:46

utility, this is a good

1:20:48

vehicle. People like it,

1:20:50

it works well. Okay, you

1:20:52

start with that. So

1:20:54

popularity. This is. This

1:20:56

is something, you know, police officers

1:20:59

wanted on the market. They want to

1:21:01

use it. They think it's useful or

1:21:03

the limo, so I've done the limo

1:21:05

cases too, that's the town cars. We

1:21:07

can talk about all that drive on,

1:21:10

of course, trying to go to New York

1:21:12

City and not be in a Crown Vic.

1:21:14

Cap was very complicated. I wouldn't widen

1:21:16

them. Wouldn't widen them. Wouldn't do

1:21:18

it. So you're at the airport

1:21:21

looking for that one car that's

1:21:23

not a Crown Vic? Yeah. Also,

1:21:25

if you did, and the opposing

1:21:27

counsel got a photo of you

1:21:29

getting into one, that would take

1:21:31

your case, right? Absolutely, that

1:21:33

would be. I mean, they would, there are

1:21:36

motions in limine about while you

1:21:38

drive and ride, motions limine is

1:21:40

a limiting motion that says you

1:21:42

have to approach the judge before

1:21:44

you put in evidence or argument

1:21:46

on a particular thing. There are

1:21:48

lots of motions in limine about

1:21:51

all kinds of things when you

1:21:53

go to trial. There was always

1:21:55

in automotive product cases, there were

1:21:57

always motions limiting about what car

1:21:59

you'd And both sides agreed to

1:22:02

them because they didn't want,

1:22:04

they didn't want any

1:22:06

commentary about what they were

1:22:08

driving. Right. If they were driving

1:22:10

Mercedes or whatever, you know,

1:22:12

so it was, and the people were

1:22:15

always pushing against that one,

1:22:17

it was kind of amusing.

1:22:19

Anyway, what is the argument?

1:22:21

The argument is the data

1:22:23

is not that bad. You

1:22:25

look at the number of miles

1:22:28

driven. Not that many

1:22:30

have died. That's the argument.

1:22:33

That's really it. It comes

1:22:35

down to that. And it's

1:22:38

pretty successful argument because,

1:22:40

well, well, OK, Ford

1:22:43

Motor Company or General

1:22:45

Motors, we're talking about

1:22:48

four in this case,

1:22:50

but I had cases

1:22:52

against GM, Suzuki and

1:22:55

Toyota and other companies.

1:22:57

is that it's just

1:22:59

not that bad. It's

1:23:01

part of the risk. We all

1:23:03

take risks. Right. Driving's

1:23:06

dangerous. Right. So what

1:23:08

are you going to do?

1:23:10

Make trees illegal? Right. So

1:23:12

you start talking about

1:23:14

all those other risks. Yeah.

1:23:16

And that's how you obscure

1:23:19

it. Now, are there more...

1:23:21

And it was interesting,

1:23:23

you know, I had a... We took

1:23:26

a case from an officer. who

1:23:28

was burned, but not, he was

1:23:30

burned badly, but not

1:23:32

catastrophically in that sense,

1:23:34

but he couldn't do his

1:23:36

regular, he was a police

1:23:39

officer, he couldn't do his

1:23:41

regular work. And it was very

1:23:43

hard on it. I mean, small

1:23:45

Burns, Tom fried his hand

1:23:47

with Okraub one time. You could

1:23:50

ask him that story about how

1:23:52

many mistakes he made. Three I

1:23:54

four it's usually more than one

1:23:56

mistake these guys weren't doing it. There

1:23:58

was no mistake here. They had done

1:24:00

nothing. And I was able,

1:24:03

I was able to get

1:24:05

a fair, reasonable settlement with

1:24:08

Ford just sitting down

1:24:10

and saying, okay, this

1:24:12

is the situation, we're not

1:24:14

going to take a fee, this is

1:24:17

what I want to do, and

1:24:19

talking to them, and I was

1:24:21

able to do it. But a

1:24:23

key part of that is

1:24:25

treating people like human

1:24:28

beings. and having empathy

1:24:30

for their situation and

1:24:33

not demonizing them and

1:24:35

not... In this case, the

1:24:37

people you're treating like

1:24:40

human beings are

1:24:42

opposing counsel, right? Yeah.

1:24:44

It's a very important,

1:24:46

basic rule for successful

1:24:49

litigation to treat people

1:24:51

on this other side of

1:24:54

you, even if you're in a

1:24:56

pitched battle. with

1:24:58

empathy, you know, somebody's got

1:25:00

a kid that gets sick and

1:25:03

they want to put off the

1:25:05

depositions. Some lawyers won't do it.

1:25:07

I would. I'd say, okay, I'll put

1:25:09

it off for X time. Does that,

1:25:11

I can't put it off forever. I

1:25:13

can put it for, and I remember

1:25:15

in one of these fire cases, I

1:25:18

had a lot of these cases, trying

1:25:20

to get cases in town car cases,

1:25:22

and they were all around the

1:25:24

country. And I say, I, it

1:25:27

was a whole team that David Perry

1:25:29

was a leader on those cases and

1:25:31

his partner Rennie Haas, who was

1:25:33

the first female district court

1:25:36

judge in South Texas, and I

1:25:38

got to know as a prosecutor

1:25:40

because I was assigned to her court.

1:25:42

They knew how to, they did it, they

1:25:44

did it right, they did it

1:25:47

honorably, always. And that's that's

1:25:49

that thing, but you've got

1:25:51

to be prepared to walk every

1:25:53

day. with a couple people that

1:25:55

are not reflecting your

1:25:57

values, you have to leave. you

1:26:00

meant, okay, I'm glad you returned to that

1:26:02

because when you initially said you've got to

1:26:04

be prepared to walk every day, I thought

1:26:06

that meant you have to work hard, you

1:26:08

have to walk to work, you have to

1:26:10

walk, you meant you need to be prepared

1:26:12

to walk away every day, you need to

1:26:14

be prepared to walk away every day, you

1:26:16

need to be prepared to quit every day

1:26:19

if there's a conflict. So what you

1:26:21

said about treating the opposing counsel with

1:26:23

respect and dignity and so on, it

1:26:25

made me think about, it's not so

1:26:27

much happening. you know, jokes about lawyers.

1:26:30

How many lawyers does it take

1:26:32

to blah, blah, blah, right? And

1:26:34

they were really brutal. They were

1:26:36

very dehumanizing, you know, throw the

1:26:38

lawyers, you know, at the bottom

1:26:40

of the ocean kind of jokes.

1:26:42

And my uncle's a lawyer. He

1:26:44

taught at law school he argued

1:26:47

before the Supreme Court, like

1:26:49

he's a pretty big lawyer.

1:26:51

So I always like listened

1:26:53

to those and I was

1:26:55

like, my uncle's a good

1:26:57

guy. like there's something disconnect

1:26:59

here. And I think what it

1:27:01

is is that at least

1:27:04

the public's perception

1:27:06

of lawyers is your job

1:27:08

is to a defense lawyer.

1:27:10

Your job is to defend

1:27:12

Tony Soprano, an

1:27:15

assassin, a rapist murderer

1:27:17

to the best of

1:27:19

your abilities abilities. That

1:27:22

guy shouldn't be

1:27:24

defended. Right? You're on the

1:27:27

wrong side because you're defending

1:27:29

this guy who raped my

1:27:31

daughter. On the other side,

1:27:33

as a prosecutor, your job

1:27:35

is to get the maximum

1:27:38

sentence for someone who robbed

1:27:40

a store because he was

1:27:42

starving to death and he

1:27:44

stole a loaf of bread,

1:27:46

right? Like there's no, as a

1:27:49

lawyer, you have no, your sense

1:27:51

of empathy has no business

1:27:53

here. And I would argue

1:27:55

that's what I'd say a couple

1:27:58

things about that. First. Your

1:28:01

sense of empathy does have

1:28:03

business there. Two, I believe

1:28:05

in the importance of a defense.

1:28:07

And I think that, you know, if you

1:28:09

want to talk in the criminal

1:28:12

vein, you know, everyone is

1:28:14

presumed innocent. They are

1:28:16

presumed innocent. But aren't

1:28:18

there defenses where you're not

1:28:20

even arguing innocence? You're arguing

1:28:23

extenuating circumstances. I mean, how,

1:28:25

Luigi Mangioni, right? Could you

1:28:27

defend him? Would you take

1:28:29

that case if you were

1:28:32

approached? Not at this point

1:28:34

in my life. I wouldn't

1:28:36

do it. Right. And I

1:28:38

have not generally been a

1:28:40

defense lawyer. I've generally been

1:28:43

a plaintiff's lawyer or a

1:28:45

prosecutor. So that's really the

1:28:47

lane. Right. It's not the

1:28:49

most lucrative lane. Well, personal

1:28:51

injury work can be quite

1:28:54

lucrative. But, and it was. But

1:28:56

I, you get, it's a much less

1:28:59

complex calculation,

1:29:01

right? So when you're

1:29:04

defending, and I've never

1:29:06

done criminal defense,

1:29:09

but if I were gonna

1:29:11

work with a criminal

1:29:14

defense team on Mangioni,

1:29:16

for example, I would say

1:29:18

what you have to do is

1:29:20

humanize him, make

1:29:22

him into a real person

1:29:25

who had complex thoughts,

1:29:27

thoughts, etc. That's not

1:29:29

going to go to

1:29:32

guilt for innocence. That's

1:29:34

going to be going

1:29:36

to sentencing, but you're

1:29:38

going to try to weave that

1:29:41

into the whole case throughout

1:29:43

the case. And it's

1:29:45

super important sentencing.

1:29:48

The other way, it can be

1:29:50

important in terms of

1:29:53

criminal intent. You formed

1:29:55

criminal intent. Criminal intent

1:29:57

is a really broad

1:29:59

amorphous statement. That's kind

1:30:01

of easy to establish

1:30:04

on one hand, but

1:30:06

on the other hand

1:30:08

is where juries

1:30:10

can and will

1:30:13

sometimes acquit where

1:30:15

they don't really believe

1:30:17

that the defendant

1:30:20

is bad. Right. So

1:30:22

that's where that plays

1:30:25

in, but I do

1:30:27

I think Do I

1:30:29

think that everyone deserves

1:30:31

a defense? Yes. Have

1:30:33

I taken that really

1:30:35

hard road, which is

1:30:37

a really hard road? No,

1:30:40

I haven't. I've been

1:30:42

able to be on

1:30:44

the quote unquote righteous

1:30:46

side, which is a much

1:30:48

more comfortable

1:30:50

place for me to be.

1:30:53

When I was a prosecutor,

1:30:55

I... had empathy for the

1:30:58

defendant. Didn't mean I didn't

1:31:00

want to commit him or her,

1:31:02

I did. And your comment about

1:31:05

getting the most you can

1:31:07

is interesting, because

1:31:09

almost, you always will plead.

1:31:11

You can do a plea. But

1:31:13

if somebody didn't take a plea,

1:31:16

then you really felt like, OK,

1:31:18

then you need to do better

1:31:20

than the plea. Because if

1:31:22

you don't, then. you

1:31:24

lose credibility with the defense

1:31:27

bar on how that plays out.

1:31:29

It's kind of like, okay, you

1:31:31

want to trial, you got a

1:31:34

trial, and now I offered you

1:31:36

a plea for 10 years, and

1:31:38

now you've got 25 years.

1:31:40

Well, it's going to be

1:31:43

25 years. There's no snapback.

1:31:45

That's where it is. Now,

1:31:47

it's not really 25 years.

1:31:49

Typically, I don't know what

1:31:51

it is right now. different

1:31:55

laws, probationary laws,

1:31:58

etc. You have... You

1:32:00

might only serve a tenth

1:32:02

or a 15th of your

1:32:05

sentence. What do you think

1:32:07

about privately owned prisons? I'm

1:32:09

against them. I don't think

1:32:11

they're well run. I'm not...

1:32:13

My opinion is based upon

1:32:15

what I've seen generally. I

1:32:17

think they... They're just not

1:32:19

well run. They're all about...

1:32:21

ringing the last bit of

1:32:23

money out of the profit.

1:32:25

There's not, people don't go

1:32:28

buy a spot in prison.

1:32:30

So you don't have the,

1:32:32

how we say, cleansing effect

1:32:34

of having to appeal to

1:32:36

the market. Right. Your customers

1:32:38

are. Yeah, your customers don't

1:32:40

choose to be there. There's

1:32:42

no yelp review. Right. You

1:32:44

know, this was, they have

1:32:46

the best prison stop I've

1:32:48

ever had. You know, the

1:32:51

medical care here is great.

1:32:53

I actually I was in

1:32:55

prison briefly Memorial Day weekend

1:32:57

1983 prison or jail prison

1:32:59

in Alaska I shoplifting I

1:33:01

got caught shoplifting it's a

1:33:03

long story and people listen

1:33:05

to this podcast have heard

1:33:07

it so I won't go

1:33:09

through the whole thing but

1:33:12

In those days, they didn't,

1:33:14

I don't know what it's

1:33:16

like now in Alaska, but

1:33:18

they didn't have jails. They

1:33:20

had, you know, it was

1:33:22

called Fairbags Correctional Center, where

1:33:24

I was sent. And, you

1:33:26

know, being held for trial,

1:33:28

which happened Tuesday because it

1:33:30

was Memorial Day weekend, I

1:33:32

got busted Thursday evening, so

1:33:35

it was a long weekend.

1:33:37

Bad timing. Yeah. But it's

1:33:39

funny what you just said

1:33:41

because it reminded me that

1:33:43

in Alaska, in the 80s,

1:33:45

they had tons of money

1:33:47

from the oil. So the

1:33:49

prison was plush. Like every

1:33:51

meal was all you can

1:33:53

eat. But you only had

1:33:55

20 minutes. It was like

1:33:58

a buffet style. Wednesday was

1:34:00

prime rib day where the

1:34:02

cops could pay a dollar

1:34:04

to eat with the prisoners.

1:34:06

You had whole wheat rolls

1:34:08

and white rolls and a

1:34:10

salad bar and like this

1:34:12

whole thing. And I remember

1:34:14

I was sitting at this

1:34:16

table and the guy across

1:34:19

the table for me looked

1:34:21

like, what's that guy's name,

1:34:23

Charles Bronson. He looked like

1:34:25

tattoos and muscles and her.

1:34:27

And he was just like

1:34:29

shoveling food into his mouth.

1:34:31

And he looks up and

1:34:33

he says, this is the

1:34:35

best damn prison I've ever

1:34:37

been in. That's perfect. That's

1:34:39

perfect. Now, that's perfect. What

1:34:42

can I say? That is

1:34:44

not typical. That's not typical.

1:34:46

And the food in particular

1:34:48

is abysmal in most prisons.

1:34:50

And I've visited inside a

1:34:52

fair number of prisons to

1:34:54

take depositions or to meet

1:34:56

with a witness or you

1:34:58

know, something like that. So

1:35:00

I have had the opportunity

1:35:02

to, and also some jails

1:35:05

too. Same thing. My mother,

1:35:07

back to my mother, she

1:35:09

was born in the jail

1:35:11

because as the sheriff, they

1:35:13

lived on the top floor.

1:35:15

Oh, the family jail. So

1:35:17

she was born in the

1:35:19

jail. That's funny. I know.

1:35:21

So it's so it's so.

1:35:23

The private is, I'm not

1:35:26

inherently against privatization, but its

1:35:28

record is overall not very

1:35:30

good. Especially when you don't,

1:35:32

when your clients can't complain,

1:35:34

they have no voice. So

1:35:36

what's to stop them from,

1:35:38

you know, giving them starvation,

1:35:40

food, and, you know, abusing

1:35:42

them, nothing? Well, and there's

1:35:44

a lack of public sentiment.

1:35:46

Yeah, sure. And some people

1:35:49

say, great. I don't want

1:35:51

to spend a penny on

1:35:53

that person. The issue is

1:35:55

what is our duty if

1:35:57

we choose to take someone's

1:35:59

liberty? What is our duty

1:36:01

to them? And that's something

1:36:03

I feel very strongly about.

1:36:05

You know, I worked in

1:36:07

a DA's office where I

1:36:09

had the ability to go

1:36:12

to my boss, the district

1:36:14

attorney, and say, the evidence

1:36:16

is not here, we should

1:36:18

not proceed with this case.

1:36:20

And I was able to

1:36:22

do that. It's kind of

1:36:24

rare. And it changed later.

1:36:26

You don't want to do

1:36:28

that too much. Well, no.

1:36:30

But you know, once or

1:36:33

twice? You can. And you

1:36:35

have credibility if you're getting

1:36:37

your verdicts. So in a

1:36:39

courthouse culture, it's like everybody

1:36:41

knows who everybody is, if

1:36:43

they know which case is

1:36:45

going to be argued, they

1:36:47

all show up if they

1:36:49

think you're somebody worth listening

1:36:51