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Manouche Zamorote.

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Today on the show,

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managing our emotions, so

1:00

they don't manage us. But

1:02

we start with a story

1:05

about a violin. Good morning,

1:07

ladies and gentlemen. Not long

1:10

ago, Southerby's in New York

1:12

held an auction for a

1:14

stratovarius. The Joachima stratovarius, a

1:17

masterpiece of sound, and we

1:19

can start the bidding here.

1:22

at $8 million, at $8

1:24

million, at $8 million. The

1:26

bids rose quickly. At $8,500,000

1:29

now. Some from anonymous

1:31

clients phoning in. Nine

1:33

million. I have Ella

1:35

at $9 million already.

1:38

Numbers up and up

1:40

and up until... Sold. Ten

1:42

million dollars. So what

1:45

makes a stratovarius so

1:47

valuable? Well, for one

1:50

thing, they're very rare. Only

1:52

about 600 stratovarius violins are

1:55

believed to exist today. But

1:57

perhaps more important are the

1:59

sounds that they produce. Musicians

2:01

swear by their exquisite

2:04

craftsmanship and say no

2:06

other violin can match

2:08

their rich tones. A

2:10

stratovarius is this instrument that

2:12

is capable of creating this

2:15

magical music that transports us

2:17

and creates beauty in the

2:20

world for those who listen

2:22

to it and for the

2:25

person playing it as well.

2:27

But here's the thing. Even

2:30

a stratovarius can sound terrible

2:32

if it's played poorly. Have

2:34

you ever heard someone

2:36

play a violin the wrong way?

2:38

Oh yeah, it's painful. Please

2:41

stop. Painful is the

2:43

perfect word, right? Because if

2:45

you don't know how to

2:47

play that instrument, it can

2:49

cause pain. And that's true

2:52

of our emotions as well.

2:54

This is Ethan Cross. He

2:56

is a psychologist and neuroscientist

2:58

at the University of Michigan

3:01

who specializes in emotional regulation.

3:03

His latest book is called

3:05

shift, managing your emotions so

3:07

they don't manage you. And

3:10

he compares regulating our emotions

3:12

to playing an instrument. Our

3:14

brain is like our very

3:16

own stratovarius. When our

3:18

emotions are triggered out of

3:20

proportions, that's a kin. to

3:22

me trying to play a

3:25

stratovirus violin. It can cause

3:27

enormous pain for both the

3:29

player as well as those

3:31

around us. Now, we can all learn

3:33

to play that instrument

3:36

effectively. It takes practice.

3:38

I genuinely believe that

3:40

the same is true when

3:43

it comes to our emotions.

3:45

We can all learn to

3:47

manage our emotions more effectively.

3:49

To do that though, We need

3:51

to know what tools are out

3:53

there to help us achieve that

3:55

goal. And the big problem I

3:58

think that so many of us... face

4:00

is that we're never given that

4:02

blueprint, that science-based blueprint, for steering

4:05

our emotional lives. Emotions can feel

4:07

overwhelming. For some of us, they

4:09

overpower our common sense and ability

4:11

to make decisions, sending us spiraling

4:14

into feelings of doom and despair.

4:16

So how can we modulate our

4:18

emotions to help us make better

4:21

decisions in stressful situations? become more

4:23

in tune with what we need.

4:25

Today on the show, Ethan Cross

4:28

shares the latest tools and research

4:30

from his emotion and self-control laboratory

4:32

at the University of Michigan. So

4:35

what we do in the lab

4:37

is we try to understand the

4:39

nuts and bolts of the human

4:42

mind. So in other words, how

4:44

can you think feel or behave

4:46

the way you want to think

4:49

feel and behave? And sometimes that

4:51

can be... kind of tricky to

4:53

do. And so we really get

4:56

in there and just try to

4:58

figure things out. What's happening in

5:00

your brain and the patterns of

5:03

thoughts that are streaming through your

5:05

head and your bodies, can we

5:07

create interventions to help kids and

5:10

adults manage themselves more effectively? I'd

5:12

love to put sort of an

5:14

asterisk here or conversational footnote, if

5:17

you will, because there's a lot

5:19

of self-diagnosing going on on social

5:21

media. Help us understand. Is there

5:24

a line? Is there a line?

5:26

What is a normal part of

5:28

being human and what is an

5:31

illness? Because we live in an

5:33

era where we pathologize each other's

5:35

behaviors a lot. Well, one thing

5:38

I would love listeners to know

5:40

is that if they experience negative

5:42

emotions at times, welcome to the

5:45

human condition. We all do. And

5:47

there's nothing wrong with you. In

5:49

fact, there's everything right with you.

5:52

I am of the belief that

5:54

All of the emotions we experience

5:56

are useful when they're... in the

5:59

right proportions. I have found that

6:01

when people hear that, when they

6:03

realize that if they're experiencing anxiety

6:06

or anger or sadness or envy

6:08

or regret or guilt, that there's

6:10

nothing wrong with them, in fact,

6:13

that this is how they should

6:15

be operating to a large degree,

6:17

this is something that people really

6:20

find liberating. And I think for

6:22

really good reason, because we're often

6:24

told we should. constantly strive to

6:27

lead a life free of all

6:29

negative emotions. We should just yearn

6:31

to be totally happy. Look, I

6:34

love being happy. But I also

6:36

recognize that the quote unquote bad

6:38

emotions are my friends. They are

6:41

not de facto toxic. They can

6:43

be useful as long as are

6:45

not triggered too intensely or not

6:48

intense enough or too long or

6:50

too short. So there's an example

6:52

you've given the book, when you're

6:55

talking about emotions, getting the best

6:57

of you is a lot of

6:59

times how we think of it.

7:02

There's an example you've given the

7:04

book about a woman named Louisa.

7:06

Can you share what happens to

7:09

her in terms of her emotions?

7:11

Yeah. She's this mom. She's taking

7:13

a flight home with her young

7:16

child. There are 35,000 feet. It's

7:18

a pleasant flight and all of

7:20

a sudden, she sees her kid

7:23

begin to stir a little bit.

7:25

And then she looks down and

7:27

sees that her kid took a

7:30

bite of this granola bar and

7:32

in the ingredient list, she sees

7:34

peanuts. And so her child had

7:37

a pretty severe peanut allergy and

7:39

immediately begins to go into this

7:41

allergic shock reaction. The first thing

7:44

she does is reach for her

7:46

bag, she does what she had

7:48

practiced in her mind countless times

7:51

before. She reaches for the epipen

7:53

that she carried with her and

7:55

jams the epipen into her daughter's

7:58

thigh. And... After a few minutes

8:00

pass, her daughter begins to recover.

8:02

Everything was fine after that scenario.

8:05

Her daughter walked off the plane,

8:07

she felt totally fine. But Louisa

8:09

did not feel fine, because she

8:11

kept on thinking after this incident

8:14

about what we call counterfactuals. What

8:16

might have happened? What if she

8:18

didn't have the epipen? And then

8:21

she also started projecting herself into

8:23

the future and finding additional ways

8:25

to worry about her experience. What

8:28

if her daughter goes to a

8:30

birthday party and the parent serves

8:32

cake that was prepared in a

8:35

facility that had peanuts? What if

8:37

her daughter's at school and another

8:39

kid gives her a taste of

8:42

a snack that has peanuts in

8:44

it? And these thoughts begin to

8:46

really consume her. All true, right?

8:49

I mean, those things could happen.

8:51

Manush, our minds are unbelievable hypothesis

8:53

generating machines. We can generate all

8:56

sorts of hypothesis. Many of them

8:58

are actually quite feasible and not

9:00

outlandish. We are also sophisticated at

9:03

generating the outlandish variety of possibilities

9:05

for things that might occur too.

9:07

But yes, these are all possibilities

9:10

that begin to consume her and

9:12

as a result, she begins to

9:14

lead a life that is not

9:17

the kind of life that she

9:19

wants to lead, because she finds

9:21

herself continually overcome with anxiety, to

9:24

the point where she begins to

9:26

question whether she can actually control

9:28

her emotions at all. Right, that

9:31

is the big question. And I

9:33

think, you know, we assume that

9:35

some people are more prone to

9:38

negativity, and if you are a

9:40

person who's always struggled with that,

9:42

using, well, that's just the way

9:45

it is, this is who I

9:47

am, but is there research into

9:49

what we can do, or if

9:52

that can... So, there was this

9:54

remarkable study that was performed in

9:56

Dunedin, New Zealand, back in the

9:59

early 1970s that began, and it's

10:01

actually still going to this day.

10:03

What happened in this study is

10:06

the researchers started tracking about a

10:08

thousand kids, right around the time

10:10

that they were born. and they

10:13

measured these kids periodically over the

10:15

course of their lives. And every

10:17

few years they assessed the kid's

10:20

ability to control themselves, which also

10:22

includes how we control our emotions.

10:24

And they looked at how does

10:27

a kid's ability to exert control

10:29

when they're young predict different outcomes

10:31

later on in life. And what

10:34

they found is that kids who

10:36

are really good at self-control... They

10:38

progressed further in their careers, they

10:41

saved more money, they planned more

10:43

conscientiously for retirement, and they were

10:45

physically healthier. So one's ability to

10:48

manage themselves has implications for lots

10:50

of really important things in our

10:52

lives. The other thing that we

10:55

learned from the study that was

10:57

so interesting was as time progressed,

10:59

some kids got better at self-control

11:02

and some kids got worse, just

11:04

quite naturally. And the kids who

11:06

improved in self-control, their progress on

11:09

all these different outcomes also improved.

11:11

The kids who self-control success went

11:13

down over time, they started fairing

11:16

more poorly. And so the reason

11:18

I like to mention that last

11:20

finding is because what it really

11:23

demonstrates is that how we manage

11:25

our emotions is malleable. It can

11:27

change. If you're not good at

11:30

it at one point in life,

11:32

whether you're a child or an

11:34

adult, that doesn't mean you're destined

11:37

to always. be bad at it.

11:39

We have the capacity to get

11:41

better or worse and that's where

11:44

I think understanding how self-control works

11:46

familiarizing ourselves with the tools that

11:48

are out there. That's why that's

11:51

such an incredibly important thing for

11:53

all of us to do. And

11:55

so back to Louisa. wasn't until

11:58

an experience she had with her

12:00

daughter that really helped break her

12:02

out of her funk. She realized

12:05

that when she was stuck in

12:07

one of these doom loops, her

12:09

daughter came in just rushing into

12:11

the room, you know, had a

12:14

problem she wanted to talk to

12:16

her about and then they did

12:18

a behavior together, an activity, and

12:21

after the activity was over, Louisa

12:23

realized that she wasn't stressed anymore.

12:25

And so she had the epiphany

12:28

there that if she distracts herself

12:30

by engaging in something that is

12:32

really immersive and a positive experience,

12:35

that turned the volume down on

12:37

the intensity of her anxiety, and

12:39

that ended up really renewing this

12:42

belief that she had that she

12:44

actually could manage her emotions. What

12:46

I love about her story is

12:49

it demonstrates just how important believing

12:51

believing believing. that you can manage

12:53

your emotions is for bringing that

12:56

outcome to fruition. When we come

12:58

back more with Ethan Cross on

13:00

the tools that can help us

13:03

in moments of anxiety or crisis,

13:05

including the strategies of the world's

13:07

youngest Nobel Peace Prize Laureate. Today

13:10

on the show, managing our emotions.

13:12

I'm Anush Zamorote and you're listening

13:14

to the Ted Radio Hour from

13:17

NPR. We'll be right back. This

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the February 2024 Nelson Report.

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It's the Ted Radio Hour from

15:15

NPR. I'm Manouch Zamorote. On the

15:18

show today, we are spending the

15:20

hour with psychologist and neuroscientist Ethan

15:22

Cross. Talking about how we can

15:24

shift our perspective on our emotions

15:27

so that they don't overwhelm us

15:29

and our lives. And Ethan says

15:31

that there are many tools that

15:33

we can use that a lot

15:36

of people don't. One of those

15:38

tools, he says, is language.

15:40

In particular, the way we

15:42

speak to ourselves, one person

15:44

who's very good at this,

15:46

he says, is Nobel Prize

15:48

winner Malala Yousafzai. Here's Ethan

15:50

Cross on the TED stage. Right

15:52

before Malala Yousafzi became

15:54

the youngest person to ever

15:57

win the Nobel Peace Prize

15:59

for advocate. for the rights of

16:01

young girls to receive an education.

16:03

She was invited onto the Daily

16:05

Show with John Stewart to talk

16:07

about her experience. At one point

16:10

during the interview, she begins to

16:12

explain what went through her head

16:14

when she first discovered that the

16:16

Taliban were plotting to kill her.

16:18

And I used to think that

16:20

the Taliban would come and he

16:23

would just kill me. She's talking

16:25

to herself in the first person

16:27

the way we typically think about

16:29

our lives. But the moment she

16:31

gets to this part of the

16:33

experience, right, the Taliban, they're on

16:36

my doorstep, once she gets to

16:38

that part, she does something kind

16:40

of strange. But then I said,

16:42

if he comes, what would you

16:44

do, Malala? Then I would reply

16:47

myself, that Malala, just take a

16:49

shoe and hit him, but then

16:51

I said, If you hit a

16:53

Taliban with your shoe, then there

16:55

would be no difference between you

16:57

and the Taliban. You must not

17:00

treat others that much with cruelty

17:02

and that much harshly. You must

17:04

fight others, but through peace and

17:06

through dialogue. So she starts off

17:08

in the first person, but then

17:10

she switches. She's coaching herself. She's

17:13

giving herself advice like she would

17:15

someone else, using her name and

17:17

the word you. In this instance,

17:19

what Malala is doing, she's using

17:21

a tool that we have studied.

17:24

It is called distanced self-talk. And

17:26

it is useful because we human

17:28

beings are much, much better at

17:30

giving advice to other people than

17:32

we are taking our own advice.

17:34

So there's even a name for

17:37

this phenomenon. It's called Solomon's Paradox,

17:39

named after the Bible's King Solomon,

17:41

who was famous for being able

17:43

to give great advice to other

17:45

people, but when it came to

17:47

his own affairs, he stumbled mightalitelip.

17:50

Using your own name and you

17:52

shifts your perspective. It gets you

17:54

to relate to yourself like you

17:56

were giving advice to someone else,

17:58

and that makes it much, much

18:00

easier for us to wisely work

18:03

through our problems. It's funny though,

18:05

because I was talking to my

18:07

producer Rachel about this. And she

18:09

said that she often refers to

18:11

herself in her head as young

18:14

lady, when she really needs a

18:16

talking to, young lady, get it

18:18

together. And you actually did a

18:20

study that showed that people who

18:22

did this referred to themselves with

18:24

this distance self-talked. They experienced less

18:27

negative emotion within seconds of doing

18:29

that. And she said, well, that

18:31

makes sense. It really works for

18:33

me. Yeah. The reason this is

18:35

one of the first tools that

18:37

I use is it's a remarkably

18:40

simple tool. We've done some neuroimaging

18:42

studies to demonstrate that when you

18:44

tell people to use this tool

18:46

in the context of an experiment,

18:48

you see reductions in the amplitude

18:50

of their emotional responses that occur

18:53

within seconds. And you don't see

18:55

any... concomitant increase in signs that

18:57

people are really exerting a lot

18:59

of effort to rein their emotions

19:01

in. And that's noteworthy because oftentimes

19:04

the tools we use to manage

19:06

our emotions do feel really effortful.

19:08

And I should say there's nothing

19:10

wrong with that. Effortful things can

19:12

be really good for us as

19:14

anyone who ever goes to the

19:17

gym knows. Like sometimes physical exercise

19:19

takes a lot of effort to

19:21

see gains. Some of the tools

19:23

that are out there require more

19:25

effort than others. What I like

19:27

about the low effort tools is

19:30

the easier something is to do,

19:32

the more likely one is to

19:34

do it. And that's because we're

19:36

all lazy to some degree. And

19:38

yeah, that's all of us. That's

19:40

human beings. We're always trying to

19:43

conserve our resources. So, you know,

19:45

the low effort stuff is often

19:47

my first line of defense, and

19:49

then I'll ratchet it up and

19:51

bring in some more heavy hitting

19:54

tools if I find that I

19:56

need to do so. But that

19:58

often isn't the case. I mean,

20:00

one of those easy things to

20:02

do is, you know, put on

20:04

a good song, a like... hype

20:07

up song to make yourself feel

20:09

like you're ready to go do

20:11

something hard or you know my

20:13

daughter's very much in a stinky

20:15

candle phase right now in the

20:17

evenings when she wants to chill

20:20

out. And you say like that

20:22

you were surprised there was no

20:24

research in to this using the

20:26

senses to control our emotions. So

20:28

you've been doing some of that.

20:30

Yeah, so I find the senses

20:33

as a tool for shifting our

20:35

emotions both really powerful and just

20:37

super interesting, right? Like sight, sound,

20:39

touch, smell. We've had those experiences

20:41

since before we were born, right?

20:44

Touch develops in the womb. Think

20:46

about what is the first thing

20:48

we do with babies that are

20:50

born into this world screaming their

20:52

head off? We engage in skin

20:54

to skin contact to sue them.

20:57

And yet, I think we often

20:59

overlook the potential of the senses

21:01

to help us manage our emotions

21:03

when we're struggling. And maybe I'll

21:05

start with the personal experience actually.

21:07

I've been listening to music my

21:10

entire life and it has always

21:12

been a fundamentally emotional experience. And

21:14

yet if you ever ask me

21:16

like when I was struggling with

21:18

a problem, anxious or angry or

21:20

sad or needed to be lifted

21:23

up, did I strategically put on

21:25

music to shift my emotions? No,

21:27

the answer would be to that

21:29

question. This is true of people

21:31

more generally. So if you ask

21:34

people in the context of studies,

21:36

why do you listen to music?

21:38

Close to 100% will report, they

21:40

like the way it makes them

21:42

feel. If you then do studies

21:44

where you ask people, hey, the

21:47

last time you were anxious or

21:49

angry or sad, what did you

21:51

do? Between 10 and 30% report

21:53

using music to shift their emotions.

21:55

And so that's just an example

21:57

of low, low hanging fruit for

22:00

pushing our emotions around. And now

22:02

that I know how this works,

22:04

on my phone, I have a

22:06

playlist. It has songs in that

22:08

playlist that playlist that consistently shift

22:10

my emotions, my positive or negative

22:13

emotions, up or down, and I

22:15

use it. When I need to,

22:17

and music and sound is just

22:19

one example, scent is another. Think

22:21

about perfumes and cologne. Think about

22:24

the sense that hotels pipe through

22:26

their ventilation system to make you

22:28

feel a particular way. Vision, think

22:30

about art, think about beauty. These

22:32

are all shifters. And if you

22:34

think about them... With that lens

22:37

on, it gives you the possibility

22:39

to start incorporating them into your

22:41

lives more strategically. That brings me

22:43

to my favorite. It's experiencing awe.

22:45

About 10 years ago, scientists at

22:47

Berkeley tracked a group of military

22:50

veterans and first responders as they

22:52

paddle down Utah's majestic Green River.

22:54

They measured participants levels of PTSD

22:56

and stress, both before and after

22:58

the rafting trip. Not surprisingly, they

23:00

found that most of the participants,

23:03

their stress and PTSD levels declined

23:05

from the beginning to the end

23:07

of the experiment. But what was

23:09

surprising was the factor that predicted

23:11

those declines in PTSD and stress.

23:14

It was participants' experience of awe.

23:16

Aw is an emotion we experience

23:18

when we are in the presence

23:20

of something vast and indescribable. Lots

23:22

of people get it from an

23:24

amazing sunset. I'm a science geek,

23:27

so I get it when I

23:29

contemplate outer space and interplanetary travel.

23:31

We have an SUV on Mars

23:33

right now, sending us footage back

23:35

of that terrain. That is awe

23:37

inspiring to me. When we experience

23:40

this emotion of awe, it leads

23:42

to what we call a shrinking

23:44

of the self. We feel smaller.

23:46

when we're contemplating something vast and

23:48

indescribable. You had a study come

23:51

out just very recently. It was

23:53

called managing emotions in everyday life,

23:55

why a toolbox of strategies matters.

23:57

This was absolutely fascinating. Thousands of

23:59

people who you had keep track

24:01

of... what tools they were using,

24:04

whether they knew to call them

24:06

that or not. I'm curious. Tell

24:08

us about that, the research that

24:10

you just put out. So in

24:12

short, what we did is we

24:14

ran these studies during the COVID

24:17

pandemic and the question we were

24:19

interested was really simple. Lots of

24:21

research up until this point or

24:23

up until relatively recently has looked

24:25

at how individual tools work. What

24:27

we've begun to do as a

24:30

field more recently is begun to

24:32

look at how different kinds of

24:34

tools work together. And so what

24:36

we wanted to do in the

24:38

study is we wanted to see

24:41

what if anything were people doing

24:43

each day to manage their COVID

24:45

anxiety? And importantly, did any of

24:47

the tools that they used actually

24:49

move the needle on their anxiety

24:51

from one day to the next?

24:54

So did it make a difference?

24:56

And so did it make a

24:58

difference? And so we tracked people

25:00

for several days. couple of weeks

25:02

and each day we had we

25:04

gave them a checklist at the

25:07

end of the day which of

25:09

the following I believe it was

25:11

18 tools did you use to

25:13

manage COVID anxiety and we had

25:15

them rate how anxious they felt

25:17

each day. So let's let's go

25:20

through like what we are Swiss

25:22

Army knives what are these tools

25:24

that's a big toolbox. Yeah so

25:26

we asked about talking to other

25:28

people and going out in nature

25:31

journaling. positively reinterpreting things, thinking about

25:33

that this won't last forever. We

25:35

looked at some harmful tools too,

25:37

like substance abuse. We asked people

25:39

whether they were suppressing their emotions.

25:41

We looked at whether people exercised

25:44

spend time outside. whether they interacted

25:46

with someone, sought out physical touch

25:48

and comfort from another person. So

25:50

we looked at a very broad

25:52

collection of strategies and the strategies

25:54

also varied in terms of how

25:57

quote-unquote healthy or unhealthy they were

25:59

according to a group of experts

26:01

in this area. Now what we

26:03

found that was really interesting was

26:05

number one, most people used multiple

26:07

tools each day to manage their

26:10

emotions between three and four. Number

26:12

two, and this is really the

26:14

finding that hits home for me,

26:16

there were many combinations of tools

26:18

that made a real difference in

26:21

terms of how anxious people felt.

26:23

When people used these three or

26:25

four tools, they ended up experiencing

26:27

a decline in their anxiety from

26:29

one moment to the next. But

26:31

there was tremendous variability in terms

26:34

of the combinations of tools that

26:36

worked for different people. The way

26:38

I like to think about this

26:40

is that it's not unlike going

26:42

to the gym and exercising. We

26:44

all have our unique ways of

26:47

physically exercising to meet our health

26:49

goals. And what I take away

26:51

from this study is that the

26:53

same is true for people who

26:55

participate in our studies. Each person

26:57

had their own unique way of

27:00

managing their COVID anxiety. There are

27:02

no one-size-fits-all solutions when it comes

27:04

to managing our emotional lives. I

27:06

wish I could tell a person

27:08

who comes to me with a

27:11

particular problem what three or five

27:13

or seven tools they should specifically

27:15

use to manage that problem. I

27:17

cannot make that type of prescription.

27:19

What we can do in the

27:21

absence of that data is give

27:24

people individual tools. Invite them to

27:26

learn about what these tools are,

27:28

and then encourage them to start

27:30

self-experimenting with those tools. Try a

27:32

tool out. If it works for

27:34

you, great. Keep using it. Layer

27:37

on another one. See if a

27:39

combination helps. If it doesn't work

27:41

for you, move on to something

27:43

else. Can I ask you a

27:45

question? One of the tools that

27:47

you mentioned, this might surprise people,

27:50

but you have found, actually, we

27:52

think it might be useful, but

27:54

it's not venting. Yes, so venting

27:56

is a really interesting phenomenon. There's

27:58

a very strong cultural belief that...

28:01

that when you are struggling with

28:03

a big emotion, you should just

28:05

vent it, get it out, express

28:07

it to someone else. And there's

28:09

been a lot of research on

28:11

this, and what we've learned is

28:14

that venting your emotions to someone

28:16

else can be very helpful for

28:18

strengthening the friendship and relational bonds

28:20

between people. It's good to know

28:22

that there are other people who

28:24

care about you. The problem is,

28:27

if that is the only thing

28:29

you do, you often leave that

28:31

conversation feeling really good about the

28:33

person you just. communicated with, but

28:35

all the negative feelings are still

28:37

there. Sometimes they're even more activated

28:40

because you've just spent, you know,

28:42

however long you're with that other

28:44

person talking about this experience, just

28:46

going over all of the things

28:48

that are stoking your emotional response.

28:51

What we've learned is the best

28:53

kinds of conversations when it comes

28:55

to managing our emotions. Actually do

28:57

two things. First, it is important

28:59

to express your emotions to some

29:01

degree. we do have these needs

29:04

to connect with other people and

29:06

feel validated and empathized with. But

29:08

after those needs are met, ideally

29:10

you speak to someone who helps

29:12

you broaden your perspective. It's a

29:14

person who is adept at allowing

29:17

you to look at that bigger

29:19

picture in ways that helps you

29:21

generate a solution to what you're

29:23

going through, helps you reach a

29:25

sense of closure. You describe this

29:28

in the book as well. You

29:30

say that there's an exercise that

29:32

people can do to help them

29:34

pinpoint the right people to talk

29:36

to when you're dealing with negative

29:38

emotions. Can you walk us through

29:41

that exercise? Yeah, let's do it.

29:43

We're going to do an emotional

29:45

advisor audit, and we're going to

29:47

do this exercise to help you

29:49

build your emotional advisory board, which

29:51

I think is a critically important

29:54

asset in all of our lives.

29:56

So here's how it goes. I'd

29:58

love for you and everyone who's

30:00

listening to take out a piece

30:02

of paper and draw a table

30:04

with two columns. All right, I'm

30:07

doing it now. I want you

30:09

to label the first column personal

30:11

stuff, use a technical term, and

30:13

the other column work or school

30:15

stuff problems. Then what I want

30:18

you to do is I want

30:20

you to take a minute to

30:22

list all the names of people

30:24

that you go to talk about

30:26

the problems you experience in those

30:28

two important domains of your life.

30:31

Now some of you may have

30:33

the same names in both columns.

30:35

So you talk to the same

30:37

people about problems regardless of where

30:39

they come from. Others may have

30:41

totally different names in each column.

30:44

Still others may have no names.

30:46

There is no right or wrong

30:48

way to complete this exercise. Okay.

30:50

So now what I want you

30:52

to do is... I want you

30:54

to circle the names of the

30:57

people who do two things for

30:59

you when you come to them

31:01

with a problem. First, they let

31:03

you express your emotions. They listen,

31:05

they empathize with you, they validate

31:08

what you're going through, they normalize

31:10

it, but then after they do

31:12

that... They start working with you

31:14

to broaden your perspective. They help

31:16

you work it through. They help

31:18

you problem solve. They help you

31:21

reach closure. Circle the names of

31:23

the people who do both of

31:25

those things in that order. Okay,

31:27

so do you have any names

31:29

on your list that you did

31:31

not circle? Yes. Okay, get out

31:34

your thickest red sharpie and make

31:36

a... cathartically put an X through

31:38

their names. And what I mean

31:40

by that is they're not on

31:42

your advisory board. This doesn't mean

31:44

you need to sever your connections

31:47

with these people. There are many

31:49

people in my life why I'm

31:51

exceptionally close to. I don't talk

31:53

to them about the problems I

31:55

experience in those domains. I talk

31:58

about lots of other things, but

32:00

they don't help me. work through

32:02

my problems. They don't follow those

32:04

two steps and that's totally fine.

32:06

And improvement is absolutely possible. I

32:08

am an example of that. Prior

32:11

to me knowing about how this

32:13

all worked, prior to me knowing

32:15

about the science, I remember distinctly

32:17

when people would come to me

32:19

with really big problems like they'd

32:21

lose a loved one or something

32:24

really bad would happen at work

32:26

and they'd call to talk to

32:28

me or they'd come over and...

32:30

I just wouldn't know what to

32:32

say. Intuitively, I would try to

32:34

empathize. I'm so sorry. Sounds terrible.

32:37

I can understand. But beyond that,

32:39

I had no compass to steer

32:41

the conversation. What the science does

32:43

here is it gives me a

32:45

compass to steer those conversations that

32:48

I have with people who come

32:50

to me for support. And it

32:52

also helps me identify who I

32:54

should talk to. And that is

32:56

an invaluable... tool that I possess

32:58

that that science-based compass so that

33:01

these are people who are constructive

33:03

in your life Constructive absolutely in

33:05

steering you the right way other

33:07

people are a Remarkable asset when

33:09

it comes to manage our emotions

33:11

because in those moments They can

33:14

help us find those tools that

33:16

we already possess and activate them

33:18

to our benefit In a moment,

33:20

more from Eason Cross on that

33:22

little voice inside your head that

33:24

can often get in your way

33:27

with all its chatter. On the

33:29

show today, managing our emotions. I'm

33:31

Anish Somerote and you're listening to

33:33

the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

33:35

Stay with us. This

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to your local agent today. In

45:20

the last few minutes, I want

45:23

to talk about someone who maybe

45:25

did the opposite of what our

45:27

culture thinks is the right way

45:30

to deal with a painful emotion.

45:32

And that is your grandmother. You

45:34

wrote about her in your book.

45:37

She was a Holocaust survivor. And

45:39

you say that she really avoided

45:42

talking about the trauma that she

45:44

experienced. And I think very often

45:46

people think at least. in the

45:49

United States. We think, oh, you

45:51

need to dig into your grief,

45:53

you need to explore it, so

45:56

you can get over it. But

45:58

you actually come to a very

46:00

different conclusion after thinking about your

46:03

grandmother. approach and all the studies

46:05

that you have done in the

46:07

lab. That's right. We tend to

46:10

talk about avoidance as a universal

46:12

harm. It's toxic. It's true that

46:14

chronically avoiding things is linked with

46:17

negative outcomes across the board. But

46:19

what's often lost when we talk

46:21

about avoidance is toxic and approach

46:24

is useful and by approach I

46:26

mean confronting our negative experiences to

46:29

work through them. is that you

46:31

don't actually have to choose between

46:33

those two states. You can actually

46:36

go back and forth flexibly between

46:38

them. You can approach things for

46:40

a while, take some time off,

46:43

avoid them, and then come back.

46:45

And lots of research demonstrate that

46:47

that can often be really useful

46:50

for people. This was true of

46:52

my grandmother, so my grandmother had

46:54

this really extraordinary. set of circumstances

46:57

before her. She's growing up in

46:59

Eastern Europe and Poland around the

47:01

time of World War II. She

47:04

in many ways has an idyllic

47:06

childhood. Then the Nazis come in.

47:08

She witnesses her family be slaughtered

47:11

for the most part. She flees

47:13

and goes from ghetto to ghetto

47:16

living in the woods with partisans

47:18

freezing woods. She's almost killed several

47:20

times over. She ultimately makes it

47:23

out. gets to the states with

47:25

nothing, she and my grandfather begin

47:27

a new life and they ultimately

47:30

thrive and they have kids and

47:32

they or kids have kids and

47:34

I was one of them and

47:37

I spent almost every day after

47:39

school in elementary school at my

47:41

grandmothers. She was watching me while

47:44

my parents worked and I remember.

47:46

constantly asking her to tell me

47:48

about her experience, but she would

47:51

never do it. She would talk

47:53

to me about lots of other

47:55

things, and she was in a

47:58

exceptionally expressive and warm grandmother. but

48:00

she didn't like to revisit those

48:03

traumatic times, understandably. Except for one

48:05

day a year when there'd be

48:07

this remembrance day that she and

48:10

some of her fellow survivors organized

48:12

where I'd go to this synagogue

48:14

and for a full day I'd

48:17

listen to all of the people

48:19

who survived that were including my

48:21

grandmother and grandfather in tears, they

48:24

would scream and cry as they

48:26

recounted the atrocities. And... What I

48:28

didn't realize at the time was

48:31

she would dose thinking about her

48:33

experiences during the Holocaust, and that

48:35

was a strategy that really worked

48:38

well for her. It wasn't that

48:40

she would chronically avoid it. She

48:42

would deliberately not think about it

48:45

for long stretches of time, but

48:47

then during the remembrance day event,

48:50

she'd allow herself to really get

48:52

in there. If she happened to

48:54

see another survivor, they would talk

48:57

about it. And that ability to

48:59

be flexible is a skill that

49:01

works for some people. There are

49:04

no, again, one size fits all

49:06

solutions. And this is true for

49:08

dealing with trauma and grieving as

49:11

well. There are different trajectories and

49:13

different kinds of tools that people

49:15

can benefit from. This lesson that

49:18

we learned from my grandmother is

49:20

not just relevant to dealing with

49:22

the... extraordinarily disturbing circumstances that befall

49:25

some of us during our lives.

49:27

It's also relevant to the more

49:29

minor blips that we sometimes encounter.

49:32

I was raised to always approach

49:34

my emotions. The moment something happens

49:36

you should deal with it right

49:39

then and there. What I've since

49:41

learned based on the data that

49:44

I've encountered but also just experiences

49:46

I've had is that sometimes... forcing

49:48

myself to take some time away

49:51

from a problem, whether it be

49:53

a few hours or days, and

49:55

then coming back to that problem

49:58

with some more psychological distance, if

50:00

you will, can be quite useful.

50:02

Because when I come back to

50:05

the problem later on, the intense...

50:07

is often diminished and I can

50:09

often view it in a different

50:12

light. That is a case of

50:14

being strategic with how I divert

50:16

my attention. It's being strategic with

50:19

avoidance, if you will. So the

50:21

real take-home lesson here for me

50:23

is you don't have to choose

50:26

between approaching and avoiding. You can

50:28

go back and forth between them.

50:31

I want to wrap things up

50:33

by sharing with you. a set

50:35

of observations about our time's messy

50:38

emotional lives that I find myself

50:40

thinking about quite a bit. And

50:42

every time I do it fills

50:45

me with both dread and I

50:47

find it inspiring. Between eight and

50:49

10,000 years ago, our ancestors invented

50:52

the first surgical technique. Its name

50:54

was Trepination, and what it involved

50:56

doing was drilling holes in people's

50:59

skulls. One of the reasons why

51:01

this technique was believed to be

51:03

used. was to help people manage

51:06

their emotions. Big, dysregulated emotional responses.

51:08

Let the evil spirits out. Fast

51:10

forward to 1949, a Portuguese physician

51:13

wins the Nobel Prize for another

51:15

emotion regulation and intervention. This one's

51:18

name, the frontal lobotomy. We have

51:20

come a long way, thankfully. from

51:22

carving holes in people's heads and

51:25

sticking ice picks in our frontal

51:27

cortices to provide people with emotional

51:29

relief. Our toolbox of science-based skills

51:32

is vastly improved. What we need

51:34

to do a better job doing

51:36

is using these tools in our

51:39

lives and sharing them with other

51:41

people. We spend enormous amounts of

51:43

resources, teaching ourselves how to communicate

51:46

more effectively with other people. What

51:48

we need to do is devote

51:50

an equivalent amount of resources to

51:53

teaching ourselves how to communicate more

51:55

effectively with ourselves. Thank you. scientist

51:57

Ethan Cross. He runs the Emotion

52:00

and self-control laboratory at the University

52:02

of Michigan. His latest book is

52:05

called Shift, Managing Your Emotions, so

52:07

they don't manage you. Before that,

52:09

he wrote, Chatter, The Voice in

52:12

Our Head, Why It Matters, and

52:14

How To Harness It. You can

52:16

see his full talk and many

52:19

other talks at ted.com. Thank you

52:21

so much for listening to our

52:23

show today. If you found it

52:26

helpful, please share it with a

52:28

friend or a family member or

52:30

take a moment to follow us

52:33

and write a review on Apple

52:35

Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like

52:37

listening to podcasts. We really appreciate

52:39

it. This episode was produced by

52:42

Rachel Faulkner-White. It was edited

52:44

by Sonez-Smeshenpur and me. Our

52:46

production staff at NPR also

52:48

includes Fiona Guiren, James Delahousie,

52:51

Matthew Cloutier, Katie Montelian, Hersha

52:53

Nohada, and Kai McNamee. Our

52:55

executive producer is Irene Nuguchi.

52:57

Our audio engineers were David

53:00

Greenberg and Gilly Moon. Our

53:02

theme music was written by

53:04

Romtine Arab-Bluey. Our partners at

53:06

TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne

53:09

Hylash, Alejandro Salazar, and Daniela

53:11

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53:58

Ted Talks Day. a podcast from

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Ted. Ted Talks Daily brings you a

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new talk every day. Learn

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about the ideas shaping humanity, from

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connecting with your inner monologue

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to finding out if aliens exist.

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Listen to Ted Talks Daily. Daily.