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we are I'm in a

0:55

beautiful part we are starting

0:57

in a beautiful part

1:00

of Spain, Up the the

1:02

region of the border with

1:04

near the Pyrenees, It's fertile, and

1:06

smells delicious, too. fertile and,

1:08

like, delicious oregano, like, oh, growing,

1:10

like, and oregano, I would

1:12

hear, it's out here

1:14

is phenomenal all these, all

1:17

trees, all sorts of

1:19

amazing stuff. This is

1:21

anthropologist Genevieve von And

1:23

the day before we spoke, we

1:25

Genevieve had been hiking to

1:27

find a cave here, cave dating

1:29

back 30 ,000 years. called It's

1:31

called Fuente Like the rock here

1:33

is this walk here is this

1:36

wonderful, very pale pale yellow. brown

1:38

color. And so all you So all

1:40

you can see from this great distance from the

1:42

top of the the top of the canyon,

1:44

I could see. down the the across being

1:46

in a little bit up the other

1:48

side this wonderful other side this know sort of

1:50

rock big cave mouth rock inviting me to

1:52

come to it me to come to it and

1:54

And as you get to the

1:56

entrance, you're looking in, but you

1:58

can't actually see inside. of it so

2:00

you can sort of see where

2:03

it goes dark. And so in

2:05

this case there was enough light

2:07

that we were able to enter

2:09

just kind of by crouching down

2:11

and going in. But you have

2:13

to be so careful because you

2:16

cannot brush like any surfaces. And

2:18

then we got into a place

2:20

where we could actually stand up

2:22

in there so you know then

2:24

we're bringing up the lights and

2:26

then suddenly boom. We're like surrounded

2:29

by all these red negative hands.

2:31

Negative hands. Tell me what that

2:33

is. Yes, so a negative hand

2:35

is when you put the paint

2:37

into your mouth, um, been there

2:39

done that, but you stick it

2:41

in your mouth and you mix

2:44

it with like water often or

2:46

sometimes blood, sometimes other things, and

2:48

then you put your hand flat

2:50

on the wall and you spray

2:52

it out of your mouth almost

2:54

the equivalent of like a spray

2:57

can. This was like the paleo

2:59

spray can basically. And then when

3:01

you remove your hand, it leaves

3:03

the negative outline. of the handprint

3:05

with that wonderful kind of sprayed

3:07

halo around it. And this site

3:10

has almost a hundred of them.

3:12

You know, it almost brought tears

3:14

to my eyes. There are little

3:16

person hands in this cave. There

3:18

was one hand they think is

3:20

like that of a four-year-old. It's

3:23

so tiny. I have a five-year-old

3:25

son, so of course I'm like,

3:27

oh my gosh. Wow, it's like

3:29

they're reaching out to you through

3:31

the ages. Isn't that incredible? And

3:33

it's too high. Like the four

3:36

year old was not standing. Somebody

3:38

had to lift them up. It's

3:40

on the ceiling. So like this

3:42

wasn't just a kid fooling around.

3:44

This was very purposeful and very

3:46

deliberate what they did. We don't

3:48

know why they were doing it,

3:51

but I mean, one of the

3:53

ideas, even just maybe this was

3:55

a way that everybody in the

3:57

tribe sort of made their mark,

3:59

right. You know, right. this is

4:01

us. And I think that's what

4:04

truly fascinates me in a way

4:06

because like what do you need

4:08

to survive? You need shelter, warmth,

4:10

and you need food. Once you

4:12

get past that, it's non-utilitarian. It's

4:14

not required. And yet our ancestors

4:17

put a heck of a lot

4:19

of time and energy into making

4:21

art. And so what was it

4:23

about it that was so useful

4:25

for them about this? Humans have

4:27

left behind evidence of their existence

4:30

for tens of thousands of years.

4:32

From cave markings to libraries, we've

4:34

been capturing and collecting our stories

4:36

and thoughts and preserving them for

4:38

future generations. But how do we

4:40

know if we're accurately interpreting what's

4:42

been passed on to us? And

4:45

what if the archives were compiling

4:47

right now are incomplete? Today on

4:49

the show, leaving a mark? Ideas

4:51

about capturing the ephemeral human experience

4:53

in an artifact. Genevieve von Petsinger

4:55

has spent more than a decade

4:58

studying ancient paintings left behind by

5:00

early humans. But she says while

5:02

handprints and animal depictions get the

5:04

most attention, she is drawn to

5:06

the more abstract markings. you know,

5:08

there's little lines and there's dots

5:11

and there's triangles and there's zigzags

5:13

and there's rectangles with other dots

5:15

inside of them. And she believes

5:17

these little shapes aren't just random.

5:19

So that was really where my

5:21

research started was just this genuine

5:24

interest in trying to understand what,

5:26

you know, what are they? Her

5:28

theory is that these shapes are

5:30

actually symbols, possibly forms of communication

5:32

left long before the first written

5:34

languages. And the question to her

5:37

is... What do they say? Here

5:39

she is on the TED stage.

5:41

Barring a handful of outliers, there

5:43

are only 32 geometric signs, only

5:45

32 signs across a 30,000-year time

5:47

span, and the entire continent of

5:49

Europe. That is a very small

5:52

number. Now, if these were random

5:54

doodles or decorations, we would expect

5:56

to see a lot more variation.

5:58

but instead what we find are

6:00

the same signs repeating across both

6:02

space and time. Things like lines,

6:05

rectangles, triangles, ovals, and circles. And

6:07

while certain signs span thousands of

6:09

kilometers, other signs had much more

6:11

restricted distribution patterns, with some being

6:13

limited to a single territory, like

6:15

these divided rectangles that are only

6:18

found in northern Spain, and which

6:20

some researchers have speculated could be

6:22

some sort of family or clan

6:24

signs. There is a surprising degree

6:26

of similarity in the earliest rock

6:28

art found all the way from

6:31

France and Spain to Indonesia and

6:33

Australia. With many of the same

6:35

signs appearing in such far-flung places,

6:37

especially in that 30,000 to 40,000

6:39

year range, it's starting to seem

6:41

increasingly likely that this invention actually

6:43

traces back to a common point

6:46

of origin and Africa. There could

6:48

be no doubt that these signs

6:50

were meaningful to their creators. We

6:52

might not know what they meant.

6:54

But the people of that time

6:56

certainly did. The repetition of the

6:59

same signs for so long and

7:01

at so many sites tells us

7:03

that the artists were making intentional

7:05

choices. If we're talking about geometric

7:07

shapes with specific, culturally recognized, agreed

7:09

upon meanings, then we could very

7:12

well be looking at one of

7:14

the oldest systems of communication in

7:16

the world. I mean, it's incredible.

7:18

32 symbols, only 32 symbols across

7:20

all these regions. And you're saying

7:22

that the message that they're leaving

7:25

behind is more than just, I

7:27

was here, it's actually perhaps the

7:29

first way for early humans to

7:31

leave each other notes. Yes, and

7:33

this is honestly where this is

7:35

where some of my research is

7:38

going now as well, is I'm

7:40

trying to find those first marks.

7:42

Because I want to know what

7:44

they were and I want to

7:46

know why like why did they

7:48

start doing this and in order

7:50

to kind of improve my perspective

7:53

for part of my PhD, I

7:55

got to go and study linguistics

7:57

and I got to look at

7:59

proto-language. So what came before Egyptian

8:01

hieroglyphs? What came before Kanaya form?

8:03

What came before, you know, early

8:06

Chinese writing? Because that's the thing

8:08

is that they don't come out

8:10

of nowhere. They're the end product.

8:12

of a long tradition of graphic

8:14

communication and we never really sort

8:16

of were making that connection before

8:19

in a funny way. And so

8:21

this is where I've been sort

8:23

of saying, okay, well, how can

8:25

we link this backwards? All of

8:27

these systems start with two things.

8:29

They start with counting marks and

8:32

they start with iconic images. And

8:34

when I say iconic image, I

8:36

mean something that looks like what

8:38

it represents. Do you have a

8:40

favorite? We talked about the negative

8:42

hands. I saw there's also one

8:44

that kind of looks like a

8:47

hashtag, which is like, whoa, we

8:49

still use that one. Isn't that

8:51

funny? What are your favorites? Okay,

8:53

probably my ultimate favorite sign is

8:55

the lowly dot. I think dots

8:57

are just fascinating because A, I

9:00

suspect they're probably one of the

9:02

absolute oldest things around. And also

9:04

that we can use them in

9:06

so many different places in so

9:08

many different contexts. There are places

9:10

and caves where they find isolated

9:13

dots which seem to be there

9:15

to indicate which passageway to go

9:17

down. They're acting almost as path

9:19

markers. We also see dots on

9:21

the side of animals in a

9:23

way that suggests that they might

9:26

represent some sort of wound as

9:28

though they're bleeding. Maybe this is

9:30

part of a hunting scene. We

9:32

also see dots in rows. and

9:34

sometimes they look like maybe they're

9:36

meant to represent something even maybe

9:38

from the landscape or I've also

9:41

seen dots used in a context

9:43

that makes me think that maybe

9:45

they were counting something and then

9:47

the really fun one which again

9:49

totally speculative at this point but

9:51

I have I have some real

9:54

faith in AI that maybe maybe

9:56

we might be able to do

9:58

some cool pattern recognition.

10:01

and what we're looking looking at there maybe

10:03

some of them could even of them could

10:05

even be like a constellation or

10:07

something like that that we

10:09

could be. talking about stars. talking

10:11

about stars. So this this

10:13

episode is about leaving a mark.

10:15

a mark and obviously we've been

10:17

talking about about how humans have

10:19

left a mark, but my understanding

10:21

is that you're currently trying to

10:23

figure out if anyone else may

10:25

have left these markings. have left these totally.

10:27

Oh yeah, it was just about five

10:29

years ago now. Some colleagues in

10:32

our field now, some this fantastic study

10:34

where they were scraping these wonderful

10:36

little they were deposits that were put

10:38

on after the. art was made. that

10:40

were put on little art was

10:42

made, deposits dated to

10:44

calcite deposits years ago. ago.

10:47

which means the art has to

10:49

be older than 65 ,000 years.

10:52

in Europe was no humans. There

10:54

was only ,000 years ago. so

10:56

was really opens up some very this really

10:58

opens up some very interesting questions humans

11:00

around, there's no humans around I mean,

11:02

who made this art? mean think

11:04

about what as an insult, as an insult

11:06

the sense of like, the sense of like

11:08

well they're not like us we're

11:11

the only ones that are like

11:13

this group of people people, but... but

11:15

surely Neanderthals have been checking all

11:17

the boxes all we're running out

11:19

of things that separate us from

11:21

Neanderthals really and an art is

11:23

one and art is one of the last bastions but I

11:25

I personally think we've already crossed. we've already

11:28

already crossed over on that one too. crossed over on

11:30

have a new project that I'm

11:32

just putting together with some some colleagues

11:34

in Spain. in Spain remember before was talking about

11:36

spit painting, right? And the fact

11:38

that you can put put a hand on

11:40

a wall and you put pigment

11:42

in your mouth in then you swish

11:44

it with some water and you spit

11:46

it on the wall. and you spit it

11:48

than water and pigment. water and What

11:51

is in your mouth? your mouth? What is

11:53

in your mouth? is genetic genetic

11:55

material. if we're And if we're talking

11:57

about genetic material. we're talking talking

11:59

about potential. being able to actually

12:01

rebuild DNA out of spit from

12:03

40 plus thousand years ago. Wow.

12:05

So we're going to totally try.

12:07

So this is going to be

12:09

probably the next year or so.

12:11

And if we have Neanderthal DNA

12:14

in a painting, like I mean,

12:16

that is the mic drop, right?

12:18

Like at that point we're like,

12:20

and they made art. That. It's

12:22

so wild. You know, I happen

12:24

to think I have basically the

12:26

best job in the world. I

12:28

get to really work in this

12:30

really exciting time in our field

12:32

too, like it feels like... We're

12:34

just learning so much about our

12:37

own origins and about like our

12:39

relationships with like our close relatives

12:41

and like their capacity. I should

12:43

like totally disclose the fact that

12:45

I am 100% team Neanderthal. So

12:47

I feel like I need a

12:49

t-shirt. I should totally get one

12:51

made. So yeah, I'm expanding out

12:53

into the world. I'm trying to

12:55

fill in the blank spots on

12:57

the map. That's like my new

13:00

mission. That's Genevieve on Petsinger. She's

13:02

the author of the book. the

13:04

first signs unlocking the mysteries of

13:06

the world's oldest symbols. You can

13:08

see her full talk at ted.com.

13:10

On the show today, leaving a

13:12

mark. I'm minutia Zamorote and you're

13:14

listening to the TED Radio Hour

13:16

from NPR. We'll be right back.

14:21

This message comes from Charles Schwab.

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full-service management and advice when you need

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own and trade on on Think Or Swim. Visit

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schwab.com to learn more. Okay,

21:51

so we should talk about the Smithsonian

21:53

Ariana because it is the largest network

21:55

of museums and research centers in the

21:58

world It's been around for more than

22:00

150 years, but years. others have

22:02

been you and others

22:04

have been pushing

22:07

the institution to shift

22:09

telling these stories matters? mean,

22:11

who's telling these stories matters? There are

22:13

Museums are human are There are

22:15

biases, there are perspectives. I don't And for

22:17

a long time, I don't think we

22:19

were honest about that. You know, that

22:21

there was always shroud. of objectivity.

22:24

that's And that's just not

22:26

true. And And so that that we're

22:28

understanding better, who tells the story

22:30

matters? Like, what is the source

22:32

data which we're which we're telling these

22:35

stories? That matters. What kind of

22:37

knowledge are we valuing? in these

22:39

these spaces and how are we showing? people

22:41

that this this is what matters.

22:43

Museums are are not halls of fame. You

22:45

know, they can serve a serve a different kind

22:47

of purpose. purpose. I think especially museums

22:50

have always existed kind of

22:52

as this counter of as this counter

22:54

you know, that, again, is talking about. about

22:57

community, talking about, you you know, experts are

22:59

not the only people who know things, they're

23:01

not the only people who the things, they're

23:03

not the only people who value things. they're

23:05

You know, there's all of these different. who

23:07

of ways. You know, there's all of these

23:10

and multiple people who can talk

23:12

and speak to those experiences. talk and

23:14

guess part of me is also like

23:16

oh I are not stories of a particular

23:18

person these are stories of person,

23:21

be anyone of could be anyone a

23:23

connection there that feels

23:25

more. that feels more... possible? Like

23:27

you know know if you see someone super

23:29

famous you're like well, they're an extraordinary person

23:31

But this is this could be anyone is

23:33

this could be anyone that it is everyone is is

23:35

it is us know and I think that more

23:37

than anything that's what we want people

23:40

to take from the the and I think

23:42

most I think I don't want to speak

23:44

for all museums, for know, but many museums want

23:46

people to feel like this is connected. feel to

23:48

their personal story.

23:50

story. you know, know, whether it's a source

23:52

of inspiration. for what for what

23:54

comes or an of of histories.

23:56

One of the things you of the things you said in

23:58

your talk that really struck me was... like there

24:00

are generations of women who would never

24:02

be included in a museum, but what

24:05

we risk is forgetting that they existed,

24:07

forgetting that they deserve to leave a

24:09

mark just as much as somebody who's

24:12

considered special or worthy of being in

24:14

a hall of fame. Yeah, absolutely. I

24:16

mean, I, when I was talking about

24:18

the boat seat, that was really a

24:21

turning point for me, even in just

24:23

how I talk about objects. at the

24:25

museum because it was that boat seat

24:27

was donated by Juan Garcia Salasard who's

24:30

a well-known intellectual giant in Ecuador. He

24:32

passed away unfortunately before the museum opened,

24:34

but that seat belonged to his grandmother,

24:37

Deborah Nacareno. And so being able to

24:39

make sure that we say her name,

24:41

that we have her name correct in

24:43

our own records. And when we went

24:46

to Ecuador in 2019 to just find

24:48

out more about the boat seat, about

24:50

this community, about Juan's life. and sitting

24:52

with black women talking about these seats.

24:55

So many of them were just laughing

24:57

and telling stories like, yes, my mom

24:59

and my grandmother used to sit on

25:02

their seats as they did my hair,

25:04

just thinking about all of these different

25:06

ways in which things are used, the

25:08

ways in which culture is passed down

25:11

and the spaces in which that happens,

25:13

women are so central to these stories.

25:15

And so the small thing I can

25:17

do is make sure that women's names

25:20

are known in our records and their

25:22

stories told in our museums, and that's

25:24

what I'll do. Back

25:27

at the museum, Arianna led us

25:29

into a quiet room showcasing a

25:32

striking portrait by the artist Amy

25:34

Sherald. It's a portrait of Brianna

25:36

Taylor, the young woman who was

25:38

killed in her home by police

25:41

in Louisville, Kentucky in 2020. So

25:43

you can see in this exhibition

25:45

that she is lit up. It's

25:47

kind of like a memorial to

25:50

her. So she's standing, you know,

25:52

in a blue dress. She has

25:54

one hand on her hip, one

25:57

hand down to her side, and

25:59

Amy Cheryl talked about, you know,

26:01

the small details that she wanted

26:03

to put in. One, just the

26:06

fact that she's dressed up. You

26:08

know, like she was a medical

26:10

worker, so I think a lot

26:12

of pictures circulating were her in

26:15

her uniform, but when she talked

26:17

to her mom, her mom said

26:19

that, you know, she was always

26:21

dressed to the nine, she was

26:24

always put together, and she wanted

26:26

to make sure to represent her

26:28

in that way. And you see

26:30

the small, there's a small gold

26:33

cross around her neck, but there's

26:35

also an engagement ring on her

26:37

hand. So she wasn't engaged at

26:39

the time of her death. some

26:42

of the future that was taken

26:44

from her, you know, but also

26:46

to me, what I see in

26:49

that is, you know, for her

26:51

to know that she was loved,

26:53

and we know that she was

26:55

loved. But she's looking right at

26:58

you. Her hair is down, I

27:00

think, in a lot of the

27:02

pictures, you see her hair up,

27:04

I think, by nature of her

27:07

job, but her hair is down

27:09

and kind of flowing, and she

27:11

has this flowy dress on, and

27:13

just the blues of her dress

27:16

of her dress, Look that makes

27:18

her really pop. You know, when

27:20

you're looking at this, you see

27:22

her and her gaze first and

27:25

foremost. It makes me so sad,

27:27

though, that that's the reason why

27:29

she is included in this museum.

27:31

Like, wouldn't it be wonderful if

27:34

this was just a painting of

27:36

a woman in her 20s who

27:38

was trying to live to her

27:40

full potential and... And there was

27:43

no good reason that she had

27:45

this beautiful portrait made of her.

27:47

But I think those things can

27:50

still be true, that it is

27:52

a portrait of a woman in

27:54

her 20s who was trying to

27:56

live to her full potential. This

27:59

is part of an exhibition that

28:01

opened in fall 2021. They redid

28:03

our visual arts gallery. And so

28:05

the exhibition is now called Reckoning,

28:08

Protest Defiance Resilience Resilience. And so

28:10

it really is bringing these struggles.

28:12

for racial justice for equality and

28:14

freedom from history through today. So

28:17

it's completely appropriate obviously that she's

28:19

included in this. But I love

28:21

that she is in this gallery.

28:23

with artists like Jean-Michel Basquiat and

28:26

Bisa Butler and Elizabeth Catlett, you

28:28

know, that the company that she's

28:30

in, the space that she's in,

28:32

really does reaffirm her dignity in

28:35

that way. I can only assume

28:37

that by virtue of the fact

28:39

that you work for a national

28:41

institution, you are entering these artifacts

28:44

into... American history into perpetuity, long

28:46

after you are gone, they will

28:48

remain part of the collection. Do

28:51

you think about that? That you

28:53

are almost changing American history by

28:55

choosing the items that you choose?

28:57

All the time, and not to

29:00

seem like arrogant in that, but

29:02

I think that is the beauty

29:04

of what we do, is understanding

29:06

that we're building a history of

29:09

the future. you know, the work

29:11

that we're doing now will only

29:13

enrich, you know, people who have

29:15

our positions 50, 100 years from

29:18

now. People ask if this is

29:20

my dream job, but I could

29:22

not have dreamed that there would

29:24

be a curatorial position dedicated to

29:27

Latinx and Latin American studies in

29:29

an African-American museum, right, that just

29:31

had never happened before. And so

29:33

I hope that just the reality

29:36

of this and the reality of

29:38

this at an institution like the

29:40

Smithsonian inspires other people in organizations

29:43

and curators to tell history and

29:45

tell the stories in the ways

29:47

that they know it needs to

29:49

be told and beyond the ways

29:52

in which institutions are currently constructed.

29:54

This is for everyone. It's not

29:56

just a US story. It's not

29:58

just a black story. We don't

30:01

live in enclaves, right? All of

30:03

our history is interconnected. And so

30:05

it's important for us to really

30:07

understand and examine all of the

30:10

different perspectives. that make up these

30:12

histories. Ariana Curtis is the curator

30:14

of Latinx studies at the National

30:16

Museum of... African-American history and culture.

30:19

You can see her full talk

30:21

at ted.com. Today on the show,

30:23

leaving a mark, or in this

30:25

next case, leaving a sound. The

30:28

band is super obscure. There's one

30:30

song of theirs on YouTube and

30:32

it maybe has 323 plays. And

30:34

that's pretty much all that you

30:37

can find about them. This is

30:39

Alexis Charpentier. He's a music curator

30:41

who travels around the world searching

30:44

for forgotten records, like this one,

30:46

by a punk band called Black

30:48

Citron. It's a group from Switzerland

30:50

in the late 80s and I

30:53

was just geeking out with a

30:55

friend from Montreal. His name was

30:57

Phil and he tells me about

30:59

this record and then I start

31:02

looking out for it and then

31:04

a couple months later I managed

31:06

to score a copy and then

31:08

it was really love at first

31:11

sight when I put the needle

31:13

on. It's a very kind of

31:15

unique, unique sound and a unique

31:17

record. So

31:20

we started to figure out who

31:23

was in this band, what were

31:25

their names, and tried to find

31:28

some of them on Facebook, and

31:30

then say, hey, where are these

31:32

two guys from Montreal? We love

31:35

your record. We're not weird. We're

31:37

good people. And what would you

31:40

say about talking about giving this

31:42

record a second chance? Alexis,

31:47

I assume that most people who

31:50

go digging for records hope that

31:52

they're gonna, you know, find something,

31:54

pay two bucks for it, and

31:56

then turn around and sell it

31:58

on eBay for $100. That's the

32:01

second chance. But how would you

32:03

describe your intentions if it's not

32:05

about resale? Yeah, my intention is

32:07

connecting with the artist if the

32:09

artist is still alive and to

32:11

figure out to find out more

32:14

about the context. There is a

32:16

bit of that detective work and

32:18

I have this reverence and respect

32:20

for when I hold a record

32:22

in my hands, I can kind

32:24

of have a feeling of who

32:27

were the people behind it. The

32:29

true beauty is to save art

32:32

from oblivion. Alexis Charpentier picks up

32:34

from the TED stage. The work

32:36

of a good record digger is

32:38

a constant loop of three phases.

32:40

The first thing we do is

32:43

hunt. We spend hours, days, years

32:45

of our lives rummaging through dirty

32:47

and dusty record bins. So what

32:49

we are is music archaeologists. But

32:52

then the next thing we do

32:54

is we gather. We choose carefully

32:56

which records the save. We then

32:58

try and find out every little

33:00

thing we can about that record,

33:03

the artist, the label, and super

33:05

vital information, like who's that playing

33:07

trumpet on track three? Then we

33:09

file them, we contextualize them, and

33:11

we keep them safe. We are

33:14

music archivists. And the last thing

33:16

we do to close the loop

33:18

is we share and elevate the

33:20

artist through an album reissue, a

33:23

web article, a radio show. We

33:25

give records back their rightful place

33:27

in music history. But I think

33:29

we also do it because it

33:31

serves the human need to pass

33:34

along cultural knowledge. When we come

33:36

back, more deep cuts with Alexis

33:38

Charpentier, including one forgotten album that

33:40

he just found in Estonia. On

33:42

the show today, Leaving a Mark.

33:45

I'm Manouche Zamorote and you're listening

33:47

to the Ted Radio Hour from

33:49

NPR. Stay with us. This

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APY. It's the

36:08

Ted Radio Hour

36:10

from NPR. I'm

36:12

Anish Zamorote. Before

36:14

the break, we

36:16

were talking to

36:18

music curator Alexis

36:20

Charpentier about his

36:23

work discovering rare

36:25

and overlooked records

36:27

from around the

36:29

world. And when

36:31

we spoke, Alexis

36:33

was on a

36:35

mission in Estonia

36:37

hunting for Soviet-era

36:39

albums. featuring songs

36:41

like this, a

36:43

cover of Dusty

36:45

Springfield spooky in

36:47

check from the

36:49

70s. And I'll

36:52

start by playing

36:54

that, yeah. The

37:00

name of the group is

37:02

Flamingo and under the Soviet

37:05

USSR era everything only came

37:07

out on one record label

37:09

which is quite unusual. no

37:11

other countries, I mean to

37:13

my knowledge, has ever had

37:16

that. So for a span

37:18

of like, I don't know,

37:20

maybe 50 or 60 years,

37:22

every single record, no matter

37:25

the genre, no matter what

37:27

came out on one record

37:29

label, which was called Melodia.

37:31

So that makes it even

37:33

more difficult because you can't

37:36

go, like if I'm, for

37:38

example, digging jazz records in

37:40

America or anywhere else in

37:42

the world, I might, you

37:45

know, like blue note, okay,

37:47

let me... Every time I

37:49

see a blue note record,

37:51

I know that, okay, I

37:53

should listen to it, I

37:56

should give it a try.

37:58

But on Melodia, you can't

38:00

do that. There's like 50,000

38:02

releases that... you know ranging

38:05

from traditional to to folklore

38:07

music to you know nature

38:09

sounds to the records that

38:11

I might be more interested

38:13

in so basically it becomes

38:16

it becomes really really you

38:18

know looking for good records

38:20

is always a needle in

38:22

a haystack but looking for

38:25

Soviet records it's it's it's

38:27

a hundred times that. So

38:33

you share all these unusual versions

38:35

and original songs from all over

38:38

the world on your website and

38:40

on Spotify. But I am guessing

38:42

that there's a lot of amazing

38:45

music that is just locked away

38:47

in record collections in people's basements

38:49

in their living rooms. Yeah, to

38:52

be honest, the preservation of records

38:54

scares me less than the preservation

38:57

of modern music in digital formats,

38:59

which may seem a weird thing

39:01

to say. But just an example,

39:04

like a few years ago, someone

39:06

at MySpace made a mistake on

39:08

their server and accidentally deleted... every

39:11

single piece of music on MySpace.

39:13

And there was, let me tell

39:16

you, there was tons of amazing,

39:18

amazing music on MySpace. So basically,

39:20

we're very good at preserving and

39:23

archiving culture of the past, but

39:25

right now we're in the present

39:27

and we tend to not really

39:30

care about the records that are

39:32

out now, right? So, yeah, I

39:34

think it's going to be very

39:37

interesting. In the future, there's going

39:39

to be a lot of music.

39:42

that probably came out in 2002,

39:44

2005, whatever, that no one can

39:46

find because it just doesn't really

39:49

exist anymore because the server, someone

39:51

forgot to pay the domain name,

39:53

the website doesn't exist. You know,

39:56

digital data and internet data is

39:58

actually way more fragile than we

40:01

think. So in addition to finding...

40:03

and then sharing records. Sometimes, Alexis,

40:05

you actually reissue or re-release an

40:08

album with the artists. If you

40:10

can find them, you try to

40:12

bring the music back to life,

40:15

which brings us back to your

40:17

story about that Swiss punk band,

40:19

Black Citron. Okay, you said they

40:22

were only together for a few

40:24

years in the 80s, but then

40:27

you managed to track down the

40:29

band members, including the singer, Evelyn

40:31

Schumacher. Yes. And what happened? What

40:34

did she say? So what was

40:36

really fun, we got in touch

40:38

with the lead singer, we started

40:41

kind of like telling our story,

40:43

telling why we love it, and

40:45

this record is what was called

40:48

the private press record, which means

40:50

that it was done completely outside

40:53

of the record label system, right?

40:55

It was done completely 100% independent.

40:57

And then 30 years later, someone...

41:00

just hits you up out of

41:02

nowhere and be and is like

41:04

this record is incredible we want

41:07

to do something with this what

41:09

do you say so so thankfully

41:12

they weren't they weren't creeped out

41:14

and we even brought the lead

41:16

singer to Montreal for her first

41:19

show to perform the first time

41:21

this music in in 25 years

41:26

So we organized like a

41:28

makeshift band of musicians in

41:31

Montreal and we taught them

41:33

the Black Citron songs and

41:35

we brought her over to

41:38

perform the songs. So it

41:40

was quite magical. So really

41:42

when you asked me what

41:44

drives me in this world

41:47

of record collecting, it's really

41:49

stories like that. It's really

41:51

connecting with the artists, it's

41:54

really connecting with the artists

41:56

and giving art a second

41:58

life. It's your sister's environment,

42:01

has her on! Join the

42:03

reality! That's Alexis Charpentier. He's

42:05

a music curator. You can

42:08

see his full talk at

42:10

ted.com. Oh, and the re-release

42:12

of Black Satron's album is

42:14

currently in production. You can

42:17

hear more of their music

42:19

at Alexis's website, Music is

42:21

My sanctuary.com. So

42:31

to end our show today, we're heading

42:33

to Oslo, Norway. You take the metro

42:35

in Oslo to one of the last

42:37

stops, and then you walk around 30

42:40

minutes or so into the woods, and

42:42

you can sit among the trees. This

42:44

is artist Katie Patterson. We've had a

42:46

lot of people kind of take pilgrimages

42:49

to sit amongst these little trees that

42:51

actually aren't so little anymore. There are

42:53

a couple of feet now. These trees

42:55

are part of Katie's ongoing project called

42:57

The Future Library. So basically I'm growing

43:00

a forest which in a hundred years

43:02

the trees are going to be cut

43:04

down and pumped and made into paper

43:06

and a book is going to be

43:09

made from this forest that nobody can

43:11

read until the century has passed until

43:13

the trees are fully grown. Basically the

43:15

idea is that every year for a

43:18

hundred years an author is invited to

43:20

write something. for the library. They can

43:22

write anything they want, as many words

43:24

as they like, so it's, you know,

43:27

real surprise to us as well when

43:29

they arrive with their manuscript. Katie launched

43:31

the Future Library in 2014, and the

43:33

authors that have been selected so far

43:36

are pretty impressive. Their first author was

43:38

Mark Radwood. We've had David Mitchell and

43:40

Joan and Ella Shafak and Han Kang

43:42

and Karlovary Ice Guard and Cetty Dangarim.

43:45

After a special handover ceremony in the

43:47

forest, the manuscript is sent back to

43:49

Oslo, where it's sealed in a special

43:51

room. at the public library

43:53

and where it

43:56

remains Nobody read the

43:58

words until the forest

44:00

has grown has when

44:02

the trees will

44:05

be harvested and used

44:07

to print all

44:09

the manuscripts as an

44:11

anthology in as

44:14

an a project that

44:16

goes beyond my life that goes

44:18

beyond the my of many of

44:20

us alive right now many of us

44:22

completely It can we just say

44:25

it out loud straight Can we just

44:27

say it out loud, straight away? So

44:31

let's go go back to

44:33

the genesis of the idea

44:35

for the future library, Katie. How on earth

44:38

did did you come up

44:40

with it? why did did you

44:42

want to preserve words, literature? Right.

44:44

I I think from the

44:46

first moment of visualizing this

44:49

project, it was the

44:51

materiality of trees. of trees.

44:53

I mean, mean it's such a

44:55

simple connection to make to make, but the

44:57

trees and forests are libraries or

44:59

in a way in know they're just

45:01

kind of waiting to be transformed

45:03

into one another. be transformed into

45:06

was by looking and drawing tree

45:08

rings tree those kind of growth rings

45:10

that mark out time out time I

45:12

saw chapters and then words you

45:14

know are just so timeless and

45:16

I think there's a restriction in

45:18

a way that it is only

45:20

words it then again it's so

45:22

open as to what you can

45:24

do with those words you what kind

45:27

of languages people will be reading

45:29

and you know what will that

45:31

have changed be there be different

45:33

symbols what will that think the idea of

45:35

preserving language is important in

45:37

the artwork, but also this

45:39

idea that books are trees. important

45:41

in the artwork, but also this

45:43

idea we talk about the authors?

45:46

Why do you think they

45:48

accept your invitation? They're not not going to

45:50

get paid for it. it. And I mean, as

45:52

you get closer to the completion of

45:54

the project, those authors will be around to

45:56

get feedback, but right now. right now, why do

45:58

you think do you think they to? Do it? Is

46:01

it about sending a message

46:03

to future generations? Well, it's

46:05

so interesting. They've all responded

46:07

really quite differently. So Margaret

46:09

Atwood said yes really quickly.

46:11

She just like got it

46:13

and went yes. I'm going

46:15

to do this. In fact,

46:17

she compared it to being

46:19

asked to donate a kidney.

46:21

You either say yes, who

46:23

you say no. It's like,

46:25

I'm so happy you said

46:27

yes. But other authors, you

46:29

know, David Mitchell's really spoken

46:31

about it. It took him

46:33

months. to decide, but he

46:35

said that he preferred the

46:38

person that said yes than

46:40

the person that said no.

46:42

And so I think it's

46:44

kind of a legacy idea,

46:46

but also it's kind of

46:48

saying yes to something that's

46:50

hopeful, that's full of trust,

46:52

and that's, you know, going

46:54

beyond our own lives. people

46:56

playing loot and skipping through

46:58

the forest. It actually is

47:00

a bit like that. Oh,

47:02

okay. Yeah, no, it feels

47:04

really special because we're taking

47:06

this journey together and it's

47:08

a group of people, anybody

47:10

can come, it's free, it's

47:12

open to everybody, we just

47:14

walk together through the forest,

47:17

it's just an ordinary forest,

47:19

you know. We arrive in

47:21

the clearing, we're surrounded by

47:23

these little trees that of

47:25

course are changing rapidly year

47:27

on year, and then the

47:29

author... is able to come

47:31

up with what they want

47:33

to happen in the forest.

47:35

We've had a golden harp

47:37

in the forest. So that

47:39

was a bit of a

47:41

challenge. And then Vietnamese monks.

47:47

to do a sound performance

47:49

and to do a chant

47:51

in the forest. We have

47:53

a minute silence as well

47:55

where we can just listen

47:57

to the sound of the

47:59

trees. I

48:05

just want to clarify, you have

48:07

no idea what's in the manuscripts

48:09

that you receive, right? Absolutely no

48:11

idea. No, absolutely no idea at

48:13

all. And I'm so careful about

48:15

that. In fact, I really don't

48:17

want to look, I feel like

48:19

if I tried to take a

48:21

look at you, it kind of

48:23

breaks the whole spell and it

48:25

breaks everything that I've been trying

48:27

to do. But you will never

48:30

get to read them. You are

48:32

not going to be alive, neither

48:34

will I, when this project is

48:36

completed. Oh, I'm definitely not going

48:38

to be alive. So yeah, it's

48:40

a project that's like, I suppose

48:42

like planting seeds, you know, when

48:44

you plant trees, you're aware that

48:46

it's something that's going to outlive

48:48

you. And the whole project really

48:50

is about this unborn generation. trying

48:53

to kind of make a place

48:55

for them. I think most of

48:57

us know somebody and care about

48:59

somebody in our lives that is

49:01

going to be alive then. You

49:03

know, my little young son, he's

49:05

five now, but you know, he's

49:07

pregnant in the forest and then

49:09

he's been there every year. And

49:11

I feel like the kids, you

49:13

know, that especially the really the

49:15

newborns of now that they're going

49:18

to be part of this, I

49:20

hope. That's way more important than

49:22

me, you know, being around to

49:24

see it through. So

49:27

in a way, this project

49:29

is really rooted in optimism

49:31

and hope. Yes, it really

49:34

is. I mean, it's got

49:36

hope, it's core that, you

49:38

know, we have to trust,

49:40

well, practical things, that people

49:42

in the future will cut

49:44

down these trees, they'll pulp

49:46

them, they'll make them into

49:48

books. And we're also really

49:50

conscious that so many of

49:52

the changes to come are

49:54

so unpredictable. You know, we've

49:56

just been through and are

49:58

still going through, of course,

50:00

the Corona pandemic for the

50:02

project that was like... of

50:04

the first big global challenges

50:06

that we've faced and we

50:08

don't know what's still to

50:11

come. You know, we're not

50:13

just leaving behind a kind

50:15

of devastation and drought and

50:17

all of these things, but

50:19

we're leaving something hopeful. I

50:21

want to ask you about

50:23

the significance of doing this

50:25

project for a hundred years.

50:27

I think most of us

50:29

hope will leave some legacy

50:31

for future generations and... a

50:33

century sounds so long and

50:35

grand, like such a significant

50:37

amount of time. But on

50:39

the other hand, we hear

50:41

every day that our planet

50:43

is changing so exponentially fast

50:46

and a hundred years, in

50:48

some ways, feels like nothing,

50:50

like not enough time. Exactly,

50:52

exactly. I mean, it's bridging

50:54

this gap between us and,

50:56

you know, a time just

50:58

beyond a human life and

51:00

thinking about our human life

51:02

in relation to cosmic time.

51:04

And like you say, it's,

51:06

you know, the changes that

51:08

we've undergone in just even

51:10

the last 10 years are,

51:12

you know, phenomenal. And in

51:14

that time, you know, humans,

51:16

we've become a geological force,

51:18

we've changed the entire planet.

51:20

I think that's why it's

51:23

100 years is quite striking.

51:25

It's close, it's far, but

51:27

yet if we don't make

51:29

the enormous changes that need

51:31

to be done in this

51:33

time, we're going to be

51:35

facing a very, very different

51:37

future. But I think that

51:39

is where our metaphors can

51:41

help, or at least help,

51:43

bring us into space where

51:45

we can think about. time

51:47

in a way that's intuitive,

51:49

that's emotional even, and I

51:51

think that it's confronting and

51:53

it's difficult, but it's really

51:55

necessary to think beyond just

51:57

our life. Every

52:02

year that the project builds, it

52:04

becomes more and more important to

52:06

try to create projects that do

52:08

kind of reach out and go

52:10

beyond the human time span. reach out

52:12

And so it's a lot about

52:14

preservation of words so it's a language and

52:17

kind of talking to these future

52:19

generations through the trees and leaving

52:21

something, you know, saying that we

52:23

see you. through the

52:25

trees and I feel like you

52:27

I were to open a book that

52:29

had a a kind of secret pieces

52:31

of writing in it that had been

52:34

written and left to me, I think

52:36

I would be quite happy and

52:38

grateful for that. I would be

52:40

quite happy and grateful

52:42

for that. That's artist Katie

52:44

Patterson. You You can see

52:46

her talk at ted.com and

52:48

check out check out the

52:50

project at Future Library.o to see

52:52

see photos and videos

52:54

of that forest of

52:57

growing growing trees. Thank

53:00

you so much for listening

53:02

to our show this

53:04

week week on Leaving a Mark. This This

53:06

episode was produced by

53:08

Rachel Faulkner, Katie Montelione, and Andrea

53:10

Gutierrez, with field production

53:12

by Fiona It was It was

53:14

edited by Sanaas Meshkanpour and

53:16

Our Our production staff at

53:18

NPR also includes James

53:20

De La Houssi, Matthew Cloutier, and

53:23

Catherine Cifer. Our Our theme music

53:25

was written by by Romteen

53:27

Our audio engineer was Ted

53:29

Meebane. Our Our partners at at

53:31

are Chris Colin Helms, Helms, Anna

53:33

Michelle Quint, Quint, Gutierrez,

53:35

and Daniela Daniela Balarezzo. I'm I'm

53:37

Manush Zamorote, and and you

53:39

have been listening to

53:41

the TED to the from

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