0:01

BBC Sounds, music

0:03

radio podcasts. You're

0:05

listening to the TMS podcast from

0:07

BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello,

0:09

I'm Henry Moran. Welcome along to

0:12

the test match special podcast

0:14

with the champions trophy about to

0:16

get underway in Pakistan and

0:18

the UAE. We're going to be

0:21

reviewing the previous edition of

0:23

the tournament that took place in

0:25

England and Wales in 2017.

0:27

Hasanali approaching. Polls a short delivery

0:29

spin. Is this it for Pakistan? It

0:32

is! South France takes the catch. The

0:34

eighth run side in the ICC

0:36

world rankings have proved everybody wrong.

0:38

We'll be looking back at... the

0:40

standout performance is that amazing final

0:42

between India and Pakistan and some

0:44

other memorable moments and stories and

0:47

don't forget you'll be able to

0:49

hear every ball of every game

0:51

of the upcoming tournament the champions

0:53

trophy in Pakistan and the UAE

0:55

gets underway on the 19th of

0:57

February. You're listening to the TMS

0:59

podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

1:01

Well with me for a little

1:03

wander down memory lane eight years

1:05

ago test match special commentators Daniel

1:07

Norcross. and Artie of Noise. Hello

1:10

to you both. Hello indeed. Let's

1:12

go eight years back and it

1:14

feels amazing that it's that long

1:16

ago. A little bit of a

1:18

little sum up of what the

1:20

tournament was and how it all

1:22

worked. As I say, England and

1:24

Wales are hosts. Eight teams, two

1:26

groups of four and the two

1:28

groups were as follows. England, Bangladesh,

1:31

Australia, New Zealand was group A.

1:33

Group B. India, Pakistan, South Africa,

1:35

South Africa and Sri Lanka. Pakistan

1:37

won it, but what are your

1:39

sort of abiding memories of the

1:41

tournament? I'm going to go to

1:43

Daniel first, Artyf, because I sense

1:45

your abiding memory might be rather

1:47

leaning towards the back end of

1:49

the tournament, but Daniel, what are

1:51

your abiding memories of the competition? Well,

1:53

I think it was realizing what

1:55

a fabulous format it is and how

1:58

everything happened so very quick. I

2:00

mean there are a few abiding memories.

2:02

There was a fair bit of rain.

2:04

It was a bit of a classic

2:06

June where we got a bit of

2:09

a sort of low pressure system that

2:11

came and affected quite a lot of

2:13

games. We'd come onto that in a

2:15

while. It affected Australia very badly. But

2:18

I think, you know, watching the excitement

2:20

in fans in and around the country,

2:22

I remember being at the oval. I

2:24

think Sri Lanka were playing a game

2:27

there and it got really quite spicy.

2:29

That was great fun. Covering Bangladesh as

2:31

well when they beat New Zealand in

2:33

Cardiff. What a moment! Fireworks and flames

2:36

and flights and jubilation on the Bangladesh

2:38

supporters! The day after the general election

2:40

on the 9th of June that was.

2:42

And that was a great occasion because

2:45

it wasn't expecting it to happen and

2:47

they actually won really comfortably and they

2:49

had a lot of excitement, a lot

2:51

of enthusiastic fans. And I just loved

2:54

the fact that it felt quite intense

2:56

working on it. you sort of had

2:58

a game every other day or every

3:00

third day and you were sort of

3:03

flying back with and forth between these.

3:05

There's only three venues of course, Cardiff,

3:07

the Oval and Edge Baston. So it

3:09

was very neatly done and you got

3:12

in and out the jeopardy happened really

3:14

really fast. There were some... quite close

3:16

and exciting games and then it all

3:18

culminated it in a very one-sided final

3:21

which somehow was really really exciting. It's

3:23

a sort of rare thing to have

3:25

a sort of one-sided exciting match so

3:27

it was mad wasn't it? Go on

3:30

then, Pakistan won it memorably and we

3:32

will go into details of that final

3:34

shortly but overall how do you look

3:36

back on 2017 as a tournament? I

3:39

think it was the year that that

3:41

convinced me more than any other that

3:43

England should host all multi... team events

3:45

because the atmosphere was phenomenal and often

3:48

we forget about how good the atmosphere

3:50

was in 2017 because it was followed

3:52

by that very exciting World Cup in

3:54

2009. But I remember every single game

3:57

there were supporters of every single team

3:59

turning up, packing out the stadium is

4:01

the beautiful thing of the country like

4:03

England and Wales, of course. You know,

4:06

you've got communities there, you've got Pakistani,

4:08

Indian, Bangladeshi, you know, communities from the

4:10

Caribbean, Australia, New Zealand, all over the

4:12

world, right? People from South Africa. people

4:15

from all over the world live in

4:17

Britain and it makes it the perfect

4:19

place to stage this kind of tournament.

4:21

There's always an atmosphere you don't get

4:24

very many games which are sort of

4:26

sparsely populated in the stands and things

4:28

like that. It was phenomenal and obviously

4:30

the ending is what stands out the

4:33

most but I remember thinking like why

4:35

don't they just always do it here?

4:37

And I also remember it's the tournament

4:39

Henry that rescued the champions trophies, the

4:42

tournament that refuses to die. And I

4:44

thought, well, we'll do one more because

4:46

it was sort of popular. And 2017

4:48

was so popular, they're just like, okay,

4:51

let's do another one in 2025. It's

4:53

the format that refuses to go away,

4:55

the competition that refuses to go away,

4:57

and for good reason. And it was

5:00

meant to be in 2021 as well.

5:02

They then changed for a C20 World

5:04

Cup. But as you say, it returns.

5:06

Right, a couple of trivia questions for

5:09

you. Daniel, Artif. Leading. Leading. Shucky Ball

5:11

Hudson? It was Shikka Darwin. Very good.

5:13

Very impressive. I can confirm that Shakib...

5:15

No, I'm afraid not. Tammy McBiles scored

5:18

third most runs behind Rowit Shama. Darwin's

5:20

338 runs in the tournament. What about

5:22

top wicket takers? Daniel first of all?

5:24

Oh, I don't know. Liam Plunkett must

5:27

have been in and around. He took

5:29

a few, didn't he, at various points?

5:31

It was hassallally. Very good. Full marks

5:33

to you, I have to say, yeah,

5:36

Liam Plunkett was the leading wicket take.

5:38

He was fourth on the list. He

5:40

was leading wicket taker for England. Josh

5:42

Hazlewood, by the way, took nine wickets.

5:45

For Australia. So stand-up performances and plays,

5:47

actually it's interesting, a number of names

5:49

that even eight years on, you look

5:51

down the list and they're still around,

5:54

which team won all three of their

5:56

group games, Daniel? Oh, oh, that's brutal,

5:58

England I think. India. England. Oh, okay.

6:00

Yeah, India lost to Sri Lanka, but

6:03

of course they did. Right, well let's

6:05

get stuck into the tournament, how it

6:07

worked. I mentioned the groups at the

6:09

top. England, Bangladesh, Australia, New Zealand, was

6:12

group A. Group B was India, Pakistan,

6:14

South Africa, and Sri Lanka. Well, Australia...

6:16

Well their tournament never really got going.

6:18

There had two washouts against New Zealand

6:21

and Bangladesh and then a rain affected

6:23

game against England and England won. There

6:25

was much mirth on English Shores that

6:27

the English weather had played a little

6:30

bit of a helping hand against an

6:32

Australian side Daniel. Yes, well they sort

6:34

of deserve it because they made test

6:36

matches take place in Sydney and then

6:39

whine about the rain in England. But

6:41

they were really unlucky. It's one of

6:43

the things that can happen. actually in

6:45

a champions trophy and that's why I'm

6:48

entirely with Artif that I think tournaments

6:50

that take place in England they do

6:52

work really well because you can get

6:54

around and we get a very diverse

6:57

nation which a lot of fans from

6:59

a lot of different countries coming to

7:01

watch it but the problem with the

7:03

champions trophy is it's hard to recover

7:06

if you get a couple of washouts

7:08

and you ride up against it and

7:10

Australia did suffer from that we never

7:12

really got to find out how good

7:15

they were they had the worse of

7:17

the game against New Zealand because they

7:19

did get out on the get out

7:21

on the park. you know New Zealand

7:24

got a pretty healthy score just shy

7:26

of 300 and they had an overs

7:28

reduced match in Australia with three wickets

7:30

down so but they game against Bangladesh

7:33

they were absolutely cruising to victory there

7:35

and they were only four overs away

7:37

from a result they needed another 99

7:39

or 34 overs with nine wickets in

7:42

hand so they were definitely going to

7:44

win but then they didn't and that

7:46

meant that you then had that sort

7:48

of shootout situation where they had to

7:51

beat England and also it meant that

7:53

that Bangladesh had a pretty good chance

7:55

of getting through if they could win

7:57

one of their other two games. So

8:00

that's where you get the Jeopardy from

8:02

in this format and rain was not

8:04

Australia's friend. I like the Jeopardy! I

8:06

think that I know it's rather unfair

8:09

and Australia would have felt very hard

8:11

done by having come up with all

8:13

these plans and everything else and picked

8:15

a squad and travelled across the world.

8:18

It didn't half make it interesting and

8:20

put real jeopardy into the fixtures that

8:22

did take place. It's cricket, isn't it?

8:24

Like I mean, it rains sometimes. There's

8:27

lope, I mean, can you think of

8:29

any competition in the last sort of

8:31

20, 25 years where somebody wasn't in

8:33

some in some way, shape or form

8:36

affected by the weather? I mean, that's

8:38

what happens in this great sport of

8:40

ours. And until we start putting roofs

8:42

on stadiums, it's something we're going to

8:45

have to have to just make our

8:47

piece with. everybody's going to be affected

8:49

by it at some stage and you

8:51

just kind of have to have to

8:54

get on with it. It's just one

8:56

of those things and you know it's

8:58

unfortunate for Australia but you know it

9:00

wasn't any less memorable a tournament and

9:03

it didn't diminish anything of the performances

9:05

of the teams that were able to

9:07

progress. New Zealand lost surprisingly to Bangladesh

9:09

and that ensured that was a bit

9:12

of a shock Dan. Well it was.

9:14

I remember the game exceptionally well because

9:16

it... it happened the day after the

9:18

general election and it was that there

9:21

was a bit of a shock in

9:23

the general election as well if you

9:25

record the twenty seventeen general election that

9:27

Teresa May had called a kind of

9:30

snap election wasn't it yes kind of

9:32

yeah because we'd have one in 2015

9:34

and then there was one in 2017

9:36

yes to Teresa May wanted a mandate

9:39

for her Brexit policy and I remember

9:41

staying up to watch it a bit

9:43

of a political geek, you know, and

9:45

I kept watching it and kept watching

9:48

it because it was very close. I

9:50

found it difficult to stop watching it,

9:52

so it wasn't until about half past

9:54

five, six o'clock that I got to

9:57

bed. And then I was at Cardiff

9:59

that very morning for the match between

10:01

New Zealand and Bangladesh. They started very

10:03

annoying. the early drew call, it started

10:06

at 1030. So after about two hours

10:08

of fitful sleep, I sat down and

10:10

was giving my sort of summary of

10:12

what to expect, but somewhat gingerly, and

10:15

I was sat next to Jeremy Coney,

10:17

who was our expert summariser, from New

10:19

Zealand, of course, and he then went

10:21

into a lengthy discourse. on the nature

10:24

of conditions in Cardiff. And I was

10:26

quite fragile as you can imagine on

10:28

such little sleep. He goes, well then,

10:30

the sun, the moon and the stars

10:33

can work in unusual ways here at

10:35

Cardiff with a river taff, the ball

10:37

can move and swing. And I was

10:39

just gazing at him and I couldn't

10:42

compute a single word that he was

10:44

saying. My recollection of that game is

10:46

that I was confused from the outset

10:48

and then Bangladesh pulled off what was

10:51

in the end a comfortable victory. They

10:53

were 12-3. Yeah but Chuck Ibrahim's 100.

10:55

They won with 16 balls and 5

10:57

wickets to spare. Yeah it was amazing.

11:00

And it was also one of the

11:02

games a little indication of something which

11:04

was that at Cardiff the wicket just

11:06

got slower and slower which became very

11:09

important when we got to the knockout

11:11

games. when England played their semi-final there

11:13

against Pakistan because England was sort of

11:15

at the height of their rebuilding phase

11:18

from the 2015 Nadia of that World

11:20

Cup out in the Antipides and they

11:22

were building towards what was going to

11:24

become that epic moment at Lords, the

11:27

crazy superover and everything. Owen Morgan's team

11:29

was being rebuilt around the lines of

11:31

crash-bang wallop and they were very comfortable

11:33

on flat decks and going hard at

11:36

the ball. and well we'll come to

11:38

semi-final they didn't get that at Suffolk

11:40

Gardens because that that pitch just started

11:42

getting slower and lower and it suited

11:45

Bangladesh as it was later to suit

11:47

Pakistan. Yeah England by the way in

11:49

in their matches they beat Bangladesh at

11:51

the oval by eight wickets scoring and

11:54

massive 308 for 2 and I say

11:56

a massive because in the context of

11:58

the tournament that was a pretty tasty

12:00

score from from England's perspective that was

12:03

a fine day at the office and

12:05

and then you look at the other

12:07

results that they got as well it

12:09

was impressive again 310 they scored against

12:12

New Zealand Cardiff to win by 87

12:14

runs and then they were cruising towards

12:16

chasing two seven eight against Australia at

12:18

Birmingham. and via dear L, eventually won

12:21

240 for 4 and chase that down

12:23

pretty comfortably as well. So that's how

12:25

England qualified top of the group winning

12:27

all three of their matches. And it

12:30

was all pretty easy going. So the

12:32

group A table looked like this. England

12:34

top of the pile played 3-1-3. Bangladesh

12:36

qualified having won just one match. but

12:39

with the no results that took place

12:41

elsewhere played three one one lost one

12:43

one no result they qualified of three

12:45

points Australia were knocked out having had

12:48

those two no results in a defeat

12:50

and then New Zealand at the bottom

12:52

of the par with two defeats and

12:54

one no results so it was England

12:57

and Bangladesh that qualified and then group

12:59

B India Pakistan South Africa and Sri

13:01

Lanka we will go through all of

13:03

that as well as the semi finals

13:06

and that memorable final in just a

13:08

moment but a reminder you'll be able

13:10

to hear all of the champions trophy

13:12

on test match special and across BBC

13:15

sounds from the start of the tournament

13:17

on the 19th of February the tournament

13:19

open it takes place between Pakistan and

13:21

New Zealand England's first match by the

13:24

way is on the 22nd live from

13:26

the whore from 845 in the morning.

13:28

You're listening to the TMS podcast from

13:30

BBC Radio 5 Live live. So we

13:33

know that England and Bangladesh have qualified

13:35

from group A. What about group B?

13:37

Well, India in what would be a

13:39

first run of what would eventually become

13:42

the final while they threw... crash Pakistan

13:44

by 124 runs via DLS, 50s from

13:46

Roet Shama, Shikadawan, Virakkoli, also Yuvraj Singh

13:48

scored a 50 in there as well.

13:51

India, however, were beaten rather surprisingly by

13:53

Sri Lanka, so they qualified top of

13:55

the group having won two of their

13:57

three matches India. They were the champions

14:00

in 2013, Artive, and they looked very

14:02

strong bets as well to go on

14:04

and have a very good tournament, as

14:06

indeed they did. But at that point,

14:09

in the group stage, they looked a

14:11

very strong unit. Yeah, they certainly did.

14:13

I mean, just looking at... that group

14:15

in general. I mean I've got so

14:18

many memories of those of those matches.

14:20

When you look at how strong South

14:22

Africa, India, you know, in everybody in

14:24

that group is, it's quite, and Sri

14:27

Lanka as well, it's quite, like, Pakistan

14:29

is sort of fourth best if you

14:31

think about it in terms of the

14:33

expectation of the teams going into that,

14:36

into that sequence, and particularly after that

14:38

first India, Pakistan match, which as you

14:40

said, they lost by 124 runs, the

14:42

DLS, the DLS, sort of... flatters the

14:45

school board for them a little bit.

14:47

They looked absolutely nowhere. And South Africa

14:49

on the island looked very strong. But

14:51

then somehow Pakistan, again with the aid

14:54

of DLS, were able to beat them.

14:56

Again... Can I just jump in there?

14:58

Because in the spirit of asking questions,

15:00

as we had earlier, trivia, in that

15:03

India-Pakistan game, the first one... Somebody recorded

15:05

the worst bowling figures in the history

15:07

of champions trophy. Yeah. Oh, I know

15:09

this one. Go on out if it

15:12

was Wahabrias. And I think it was...

15:14

What was figures? North for 87? Correct.

15:16

Yeah. Yeah. Tough day of the office

15:18

for Wahabrias. A lot of people thought

15:21

you wouldn't recover from that, but you

15:23

know, he sort of did. But yeah,

15:25

it was a tough day of the

15:27

office, like the Indian bowling attack, just

15:30

really took a liking to him and

15:32

they went after. great and you've Raj

15:34

Singh was just you know plundering runs

15:36

all over the place and it was

15:39

just another story at that point Pakistan

15:41

had never beaten India in a in

15:43

an ICC event so they you know

15:45

it just felt like more of the

15:48

same really there wasn't a lot of

15:50

hopes and expectations about Pakistan in that

15:52

tournament it looked like India were gonna

15:54

gonna go to sail through as they

15:57

sort of did on to the to

15:59

the final at least other than that

16:01

one loss against Sri Lanka which was

16:03

a phenomenal game of cricket I remember

16:06

that too you know 320 odd India

16:08

got and Sri Lanka chased it with

16:10

sort of six seven balls to spare

16:12

I think it was their highest run

16:15

chase ever it might still be their

16:17

highest run chase ever in ODIs for

16:19

Sri Lanka you know again you were

16:21

looking at these teams thinking well Pakistan

16:24

has managed to get by South Africa

16:26

DLS was involved they're never going to

16:28

beat the Sri Lankan team they look

16:30

too strong and then they bow them

16:33

and they came to the party I

16:35

mean Junid Khan Muhammad Amir and Hasan

16:37

Ali just had an absolute ball against

16:39

Sri Lanka in the game at Sapphire

16:42

Gardens in Cardiff, bow them out for

16:44

236, and had plenty of scares on

16:46

their way to victory. So it still

16:48

looked like Sri Lanka might just get

16:51

Pakistan. They managed to get seven Pakistani

16:53

wickets, but they managed to just hold

16:55

on Pakistan, get to 237, get over

16:57

the line. It was their captain. It

17:00

was Sarfra's Armit who, you know, there

17:02

were a lot of question marks about

17:04

his captaincy, whether he was the right

17:06

person to lead Pakistan, but he played

17:09

that match winning innings, that eventually, that

17:11

clinched them the semi-final birth at that

17:13

stage. Can I... That Sri Lanka chase,

17:15

by the way, is, I believe, still...

17:18

the highest successful run chase by any

17:20

team in the history of the champions

17:22

trophy so that is one for us

17:24

to look out for. Well we will

17:27

be keeping our BD eyes on that

17:29

unquestionably. Also something caught my eye was

17:31

the South Africa side I know a

17:33

lot we've spoke on on the podcast

17:36

you can find on BBC Sounds previewing

17:38

the upcoming edition of the tournament but

17:40

we spoke about South Africa's prospects in

17:42

that but there was a South Africa

17:45

squad with Hashie Mahamla, Quint, Quintin Decok,

17:47

Faf du Placee, A-D-Dubili, A-B-Dovili-I-I-I-B-I-I-I-D-I-I-D-I-D-I-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-A-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-A-D-D-D-D-D-D-A-D-D-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-D and they

17:49

were knocked out in the group stage.

17:51

I mean, South Africa had a phenomenal

17:54

team. Yeah, they were, they were massive.

17:56

Chris Morris, you know, he was, one

17:58

of those guys was going to be

18:00

picked up in the IPR for huge

18:03

amounts of money. And this is sort

18:05

of partly what was feeding the choking

18:07

narrative, wasn't it? Because you thought, if

18:09

they don't win this tournament, they've got,

18:12

you're not going to get any better.

18:14

I mean, in that game, when they're

18:16

bowled out for 191 out for 191

18:18

for 191 by India. their batting line

18:21

up was Quintana Cock, Ashi Mamler, Faf

18:23

du Plessy, AB Davilius, David Miller, John

18:25

Paul Dumini, Chris Morris, and Pecklecio, down

18:27

at 8, and then you've got Rabada

18:30

Morkel Tahir, so they've sort of got

18:32

every single base covered, but from memory,

18:34

I think there was, wasn't there a

18:36

terrible run out at some point? Yeah,

18:39

at the oval. And it was kind

18:41

of hilarious because they're both at the

18:43

same end. Yes, I think it was

18:45

going to make. but it was one

18:48

of the all-time great photos, wasn't it?

18:50

Where two people diving at once at

18:52

the same end. That's right. Possibly do

18:54

many, I will have to look it

18:57

up, but it was a belter. And

18:59

they ended up having played three, losing

19:01

two of their matches and they were

19:03

out of the competition. So India and

19:06

Pakistan qualified, despite every team actually. having

19:08

reasonable cases for having got through it

19:10

was quite a competitive group and also

19:12

there were no no results in the

19:15

group weirdly having seen all of those

19:17

matches affected by the weather quite so

19:19

badly in group A group B rather

19:21

got away with it in that sense

19:24

and so and so it was a

19:26

group that was led by India and

19:28

Pakistan and then South Africa and Sri

19:30

Lanka were eliminated so that's how it

19:33

all worked out and and ended up

19:35

in the group stages. semi-final in Cardiff

19:37

that involved England and Pakistan at if

19:39

it was a funny old game of

19:42

cricket England all out for 211 and

19:44

we wanted that point on a slowish

19:46

pitch with you know you thought that

19:48

maybe England would be all right They

19:51

were a side that had shown so

19:53

much during the tournament and had a

19:55

good start as well. They were 80

19:57

for 1, then 128 for 2, and

20:00

looked as though they had so much

20:02

firepower, but didn't get a big total.

20:04

And then Pakistan chased it down really

20:06

pretty easily, just two down inside a

20:09

38 overs, and they were through to

20:11

the five. Short is pull for four.

20:13

And listen to that roar. And the

20:15

fireworks exploding off the pavilion roof to

20:18

our left. as Pakistan, absolutely cane England.

20:20

Yeah, it was a huge contrast from

20:22

Pakistan as well. The team that had

20:24

really struggled to get over the line

20:27

against Sri Lanka in Cardiff, you know,

20:29

237 was a really difficult chase for

20:31

them. They dropped seven wickets in doing

20:33

so here against England again in Cardiff.

20:36

They sort of coasted it really, 13

20:38

overs to spare, eight wickets in hand.

20:40

And I remember Azorrelli playing a quite

20:42

serene knock as well, 76 off a

20:45

hundred odd ball, something like that. And

20:47

you know, just really... kept everything very

20:49

calm and in control and it wasn't

20:51

what Vargas Thani fans were expecting. They

20:54

were expecting some hiccups, they were expecting

20:56

England to go, like several wickets to

20:58

fall in clumps and you know it

21:00

to be like quite tight and it

21:03

was sort of uncharacteristically quite a... you

21:05

know, a flat straightforward run chase from

21:07

Pakistan. It's not what people expected. Certainly,

21:09

Pakistan's track record. You've got to remember

21:12

coming into that tournament, Pakistan had a

21:14

dismal sort of 20 years of ODI

21:16

cricket in world competitions. They reached the

21:18

final in 1999, also in England, but

21:21

they hadn't been able to reach the

21:23

semi-finals or the final of anything other

21:25

than, you know, sort of T20 competitions.

21:27

Anything in one day international cricket since

21:30

1990. So this was a huge... a

21:32

huge moment for them to make it

21:34

to the semi-finals of the champions trophy.

21:36

The final, I think, pardon of the

21:39

champions trophy. I remember it, Henry, has

21:41

been a very surreal and curious atmosphere

21:43

that day for a couple of reasons.

21:45

The first one was that the Grenfell

21:48

Tower disaster had been taking place of...

21:50

overnight. And there was this horrible sort

21:52

of sombre feeling coming over as news

21:54

was sort of breaking through about what

21:57

that horrific tragedy was all about. I

21:59

remember having friends who lived very very

22:01

close to Grenfell Tower had driven up

22:03

that morning and come to the game.

22:06

There was another odd thing about it

22:08

was that the ground was sort of

22:10

only two-thirds full and couldn't quite understand

22:12

why this was a case, you know,

22:15

England to play. a home game albeit

22:17

in Wales, but you know, it's been

22:19

to the Wales cricket board. So I

22:21

wondered why that was and it transpired

22:24

later on that quite a lot of

22:26

tickets had been bought by quite wealthy

22:28

Indian businessmen because they wanted to have

22:30

absolute certainty they'd be able to get

22:33

to the semi-final and they didn't know

22:35

which semi-final India were going to be

22:37

in, so they bought up tickets for

22:39

both semi-finals. So there were a whole

22:42

bunch of empty seats when people didn't

22:44

turn up. And then the other part

22:46

of it was that English cricket was

22:48

starting to ride this very unfamiliar crest

22:51

of the wave of hope, but attached

22:53

to some substance. Hope, hope has always

22:55

been around English cricket, but seldom has

22:57

it been conjoined with substance. And the

23:00

reason for that substance was that during

23:02

the tournament they had easily dispatched. the

23:04

three teams put in front of them,

23:06

they won their three games comfortably, they're

23:09

beat in Australia, they got over 300

23:11

a couple of times, we're all getting

23:13

very excited about how this completely different

23:15

way of approaching batting had come about

23:18

under Owen Morgan in the previous couple

23:20

of years after a rather torpid way

23:22

that England had gone about it traditionally

23:24

in 50 over cricket. And then they

23:27

came upon this pitch and it sort

23:29

of found them out. They sort of

23:31

didn't really have an answer. A couple

23:33

of things came out of it actually

23:36

out of the game generally. Moine Alley

23:38

was selected to play the game. He

23:40

bowled a couple of overs and virtually

23:42

never played for England again at Cardiff

23:45

because suddenly we suddenly we became very

23:47

aware of the fact that Cardiff's got

23:49

very short straight boundaries out into the

23:51

river Taff at one end of course.

23:54

very very wide square boundaries and Pakistan

23:56

had read the conditions really well they

23:58

were bowling short into the pitch they

24:00

were exploiting those really long boundaries and

24:03

England didn't really have an answer to

24:05

it and they looked like they were

24:07

in unfamiliar conditions playing with very few

24:09

of their own supporters there and the

24:12

whole sort of feeling was was just

24:14

very strange I mean magnific and coupled

24:16

with the fact that as Arctic was

24:18

so brilliantly articulated Pakistan easily won a

24:21

game and got through to a final

24:23

when normally if they get through to

24:25

a final that they've got to do

24:27

it having you know twisted and turned

24:30

their way through losing the match five

24:32

times and then finally winning it the

24:34

last gasp. Yeah so Pakistan qualified from

24:36

that match England rather shocked. to be

24:39

heading out of the tournament and it

24:41

left the question as to who would

24:43

be joining Pakistan. Would it be India

24:45

to set up what would be a

24:48

blockbuster final at the oval? Or a

24:50

real surprise in Bangladesh. Well, no surprises

24:52

it has to be said. In the

24:54

other semi-final, which I think it's fair

24:57

to say went pretty much as was

24:59

expected. It was comfortably won by India

25:01

by nine wickets chasing down. two hundred

25:03

and sixty five almost ten wickets to

25:06

spare and it was a roit shama

25:08

masterclass 123 off 120 nine balls unbeaten.

25:10

Virat Coley scored an unbeaten ninety-six the

25:12

crowd left agonizingly short of the moment

25:15

they could watch Coley reach a hundred.

25:17

Coley punches the air high-five from roit

25:19

shama fittingly it was an extra cover

25:21

drive that did it a shot he's

25:24

gone to repeatedly in his career. the

25:26

sign of a classic batsman and for

25:28

him the easiest to have finishes. But

25:30

Artif, it felt like plain sailing and

25:33

at that stage, going into the final,

25:35

India is so comprehensive in the victory

25:37

at Edgberston, you thought, well this is

25:39

a team that is finding their mojo

25:42

really in their gear and they're going

25:44

to be very difficult to stop. Absolutely,

25:46

I think there were so many things

25:48

pointing to India are going to waltz

25:51

to the title. Pakistan have never beaten

25:53

them in ICC competition before. Pakistan have

25:55

had a shocking run into the final.

25:57

They've sort of found their way a

26:00

little bit, but they've not been convincing

26:02

really up until their semi-final against England.

26:04

And India have just been super throughout

26:06

other than the one blemish against Sri

26:09

Lanka. So, you know, they're... they're rocking

26:11

and rolling, their best players are scoring

26:13

runs, you know, you got Royad Sharma

26:15

Viratkoli in imperious form, it, you know,

26:18

everything pointed to India closing things out

26:20

at the oval, and I think that's

26:22

what most people expected, and you know,

26:24

really for Pakistan, it was really just

26:27

a hope against hope situation rather than

26:29

an expectation situation. Because I remember thinking,

26:31

Daniel, that India Pakistan in an ICC

26:33

final, I mean, it was always going

26:36

to be special. It really was as

26:38

well, wasn't it? I mean, remember the

26:40

atmosphere was absolutely electric. It's about as

26:42

much fun as I've had at a

26:45

game in England, really, that kind of,

26:47

that, again, weird atmosphere that we get

26:49

very used to now that we go

26:51

to India and watch games played out

26:54

there, but there was some sort of

26:56

feverish atmosphere that was just so magnificent.

26:58

But I have to confess I was

27:00

sort of a little bit with Artif

27:03

there, I kind of thought, well surely.

27:05

India is just going to get over

27:07

the line quite comfortably despite Pakistan doing

27:09

so well in the semi-final I thought

27:12

you know this is going to be

27:14

a pitch that's going to play into

27:16

India's strengths and you know one of

27:18

the things that they did so well

27:21

that team particularly I mean we were

27:23

talking about the semi-final win against Bangladesh

27:25

they got to 265 and 40 overs

27:27

only hit two sixes and this was

27:30

sort of a feature of Rojit Sharma's

27:32

batting shikadawon, Virat Koli. They just they

27:34

kept it along the carpet they didn't

27:36

give it. any chances and I guess

27:39

you know we just thought normal service

27:41

will continue India are going to win

27:43

but at least you know Pakistan are

27:45

going to get their day out and

27:48

we couldn't have been more wrong it

27:50

was that the the script had to

27:52

be completely torn up a whole new

27:54

one written yeah it was brilliant and

27:57

for again that had a massive margin

27:59

of victory. It was... totally sensational as

28:01

a match. Back is done when he

28:03

about 180 runs the final. And what

28:06

a game. So many stories within it.

28:08

Ative, my abiding memory is walking down

28:10

from Oval Tube Station and just a

28:12

sense of the party, the carnival. And

28:15

there's a lot of talk, of course,

28:17

of the animosity between the two sides

28:19

and the rivalry, but actually it felt

28:21

like a really happy, joyous occasion. And

28:24

it's something really special to be at.

28:26

Absolutely, my memories that it was really

28:28

hot, it was something like 40 degrees

28:30

that day. And it was Ramadan, as

28:33

well, I remember it was the middle

28:35

of Ramadan, really really. you know, pot

28:37

and you know, a lot of people

28:39

making arrangements, a lot of fans attending

28:42

the state of making arrangements to make

28:44

sure they could stay in the shade

28:46

or get their sunscreen and hats and

28:48

all that kind of stuff. You know,

28:51

it was a huge occasion. It was

28:53

a big ticket event as well. I

28:55

mean, tickets, this is the kind of

28:57

thing we talk about in modern day

29:00

cricket really, but tickets were exchanging hands

29:02

at extortionate prices. You got to remember

29:04

for a lot of Indian cricket fans,

29:06

they're thinking this is going to be

29:09

a lot of Indian cricket fans. you

29:11

know the oval at the time of

29:13

the capacity i think of just shy

29:15

of twenty five thousand so you know

29:18

it was really Hot ticket event in

29:20

South London everybody wanted a piece of

29:22

it. I remember somebody trying to sell

29:24

me tickets for 900 pounds a piece

29:27

and I told them where to go

29:29

To another buyer Not me it was

29:31

yeah, it was it was quite extraordinary

29:33

actually remember a little bit of philanthropy

29:36

a little bit of calm for me

29:38

Henry I had a fan of somebody

29:40

who was a fan of my stand-up

29:42

comedy get in touch with me and

29:45

say that they had a spare ticket

29:47

and said that they'd love for me

29:49

to come along with them and and

29:51

and and I said look I really

29:54

appreciate Take my brother, he really wants

29:56

to go. My brother really really really

29:58

wanted to go. And so I put

30:00

my brother in touch with this gentleman

30:03

who's remained over. good friend of mine

30:05

ever since and he took my brother

30:07

and he got to see it happen.

30:09

I feel like in my own little

30:12

way, sort of helped the karma along.

30:14

That was a beautiful thing. Also, also

30:16

arts, if you think that you've got

30:18

something over your brother for the rest

30:21

of your natural laws, is also... I

30:23

wonder as Pakistan lifted the trophy when

30:25

you were thinking that was the right

30:27

decision. I'm sure you were. But Pakistan

30:30

scores 338 338 for 38 for four,

30:32

but that does not tell the half

30:34

of it. Because of course, the half

30:36

of course, the innings... Of the game,

30:39

Fucker is a man, 114 from 106

30:41

sensational innings. Ashrin comes in, bowls to

30:43

Fucker, he sweeps him, out towards deep

30:45

square leg, this should be four runs.

30:48

It is indeed a huge cheer goes

30:50

up for Fucker, who waives his back

30:52

towards the dressing room, what an effort

30:54

that is. Terrific, what an innings. Wow.

30:57

Well done him, I mean, he's been

30:59

royally entertaining. His first hundred and he's

31:01

reached it in the final of the

31:03

champions trophy against India, though less. This

31:06

man will go down in Pakistan in

31:08

history. But, of course, he was out

31:10

to a no ball from Jasper Bumra

31:12

on only four overstepping. I remember Virakkoli's

31:15

face at the time was a picture

31:17

and it was one of those absolutely

31:19

extraordinary moments where you can barely believe

31:21

what you're seeing. It was, wasn't it?

31:24

But actually, when you think back now,

31:26

eight years on, Jasper Bumra is a

31:28

serial no-baller. That is the only, that

31:30

is the only part of his game

31:33

that doesn't always click. But it happened

31:35

to him a few times subsequently hasn't

31:37

it? It's sort of, and it was

31:39

also the first... Not the first time

31:42

that we'd seen Jasper Bummera, but it

31:44

was the first time we'd really had

31:46

him, you know, in our sights, game

31:48

after game, marvelling at his remarkable action,

31:51

and everybody's tutting and saying, this can't

31:53

go, this isn't sustainable, it's going to

31:55

break his back, you know, we can't

31:57

possibly keep bowling like this forever, well,

32:00

you know, eight years later, we're now

32:02

looking at the best bowler in the

32:04

world by a distance. But Fuckero had

32:06

just had one of those days, didn't

32:09

one of those days, didn't. I'm not

32:11

saying that he hasn't performed well on

32:13

other occasions, but there are times when

32:15

the stars align, and everything came good

32:18

for him, that little bit of luck

32:20

that he needed. He smoked 12, 4s,

32:22

3, 6s, you know, 114, 106 balls.

32:24

It was a dominant, magnificent performance that

32:27

set Pakistan up. I mean, this was

32:29

a thing that I think was so

32:31

surprising to us all, that it was

32:33

nervous. You know, at first we get

32:36

a partnership of 128, when he gets

32:38

out there on 200 for 2, the

32:40

platform had been set in the last

32:42

seven and a half overs, they hit

32:45

the ten and over that they needed.

32:47

That lovely little cameo from Mohammed Hafiz

32:49

and Ahmad Wacim. And you're always waiting

32:51

at some point for the, you know,

32:54

for the collapse, for the wheels to

32:56

fall off, for something to go horribly

32:58

wrong. And it didn't. And you look

33:00

at Jasbrit Bumra's analysis here. I mean,

33:03

I'd imagine, did he concede 68 runs

33:05

the entirety of the T20 World Cup?

33:07

He did, but, but, yeah. It took

33:09

about 15 overs, 60 no balls in

33:12

there. Halfway stage artists, 338 for 4,

33:14

Pakistan, you also thought, this is this

33:16

is right in the game. Well, I

33:18

remember watching you thinking, even if they

33:21

don't win here. I'm really pleased that

33:23

they've done that. Like they've put on

33:25

a serious total, they've turned up for

33:27

this final, and you know, a star

33:30

is born, Fokker Zaman. It was phenomenal.

33:32

That was his first one-day international century.

33:34

He scored 10 cents, including a double

33:36

century, and become, you know, a legend,

33:39

but that legend really began on that

33:41

day. He became a superstar. Just a

33:43

young man at the time, I think

33:45

he was 26, 27 years old. And,

33:48

you know, he's... somebody who's very highly

33:50

desired and he set his ups and

33:52

downs with the Pakistan cricket board and

33:54

spent some time out of the team

33:57

and such, but I just remember thinking,

33:59

wow, they've stumbled upon something really special

34:01

here, a special kind of no-fair cricketer.

34:03

as Daniel says, he's got, you know,

34:06

just breed boomer of bowling and he's

34:08

got all these bowlers that have been

34:10

so potent, so successful, all the way

34:12

through this competition and he just treated

34:15

them with absolute disdain, square of the

34:17

wicket, you know, with a flat bat,

34:19

just playing some... glorious shots. I remember

34:21

there were so many photos doing the

34:24

rounds. There's a photo I really liked.

34:26

I made up my lock screen for

34:28

a little while on my phone. It

34:30

was just a glorious thing and halfway

34:33

through that match I thought well, even

34:35

if India chased this because they may

34:37

well chase this because they've got Ruud

34:39

Sharma and you know they've got Ruuradkoli

34:42

and they've got all these brilliant batters.

34:44

They may well chase this down but

34:46

at least Pakistanis cricket fans. The abiding

34:48

memories in their minds are 1999 when

34:51

Pakistan made the final of that World

34:53

Cup against Australia and then folded for

34:55

130-something and Australia knocked it off with

34:57

eight wickets to spare and they had

35:00

the worst final of one day international

35:02

World Cup there ever was. That's what

35:04

we wanted to avoid more than anything

35:06

else as fans and they did that.

35:09

So at that stage, believe it or

35:11

not, I was happy with that. I

35:13

was thinking okay. That'll do like if

35:15

they win they win that's great wonderful.

35:18

They might win they could win But

35:20

I'm not going to get my hopes

35:22

up because I think at this stage

35:24

They've already overachieved and and asking for

35:27

more would be greedy but Let's be

35:29

greedy. Let's be greedy. Well, indeed, and

35:31

India eventually were all out for 158,

35:33

so falling or horribly short of their

35:36

target. And it was dramatic from the

35:38

off-roic Sharma, was out without scoring. Muhammad

35:40

Amir was inspired. Virakkoli, by the way,

35:42

was dropped on five in the slips.

35:45

And then the very next ball. Drop

35:47

coley at your peril, here's a minute.

35:49

Oh! He gets gone! Points! Very next

35:51

delivery, and coley is gone. India's six

35:54

for two, and Pakistan. Have the champions

35:56

trophy in their hands here? And that

35:58

stage, India was six for two, it

36:00

became 33 for three. Harik Pandya played

36:03

some innings in all of this, 76

36:05

from 43, before eventually being run out

36:07

having hit four fours and six sixes.

36:09

At that point, it was pretty much

36:12

game done and they were all out

36:14

for 158. But it was a remarkable

36:16

sense of drama Daniel. Those early stages

36:18

were Muhammad Amir bowling as he was.

36:21

frantic wasn't it? It was absolutely brilliant

36:23

it was hairs on the back of

36:25

your neck stuff because you know when

36:27

I mean I mean I mean I

36:30

get it right it's a beautiful time

36:32

whenever a quick left armour gets it

36:34

right gets able to swing back into

36:36

the pad gets the board go the

36:39

other way so batters genuinely don't know

36:41

what's happening to them it's their worst

36:43

nightmare We've seen Mitchell Stark do it

36:45

before. We've seen Wassim Akram do it

36:48

before. You get a lovely shiny new

36:50

ball. And if it felt like he

36:52

had the ball on the end of

36:54

his fingertips and he knew exactly what

36:57

he was going to do with it,

36:59

the drop of Coley felt like it

37:01

was going to be the seminal moment

37:03

and Coley was going to go on

37:06

and get a match winning 140 odd.

37:08

And then he's out the very next

37:10

ball and he's starting to genuinely believe.

37:12

until the sixth wicket went down. It

37:15

was 72 for 6. And then the

37:17

crowd just started to melt away. Probably

37:19

began it actually when Nemastoni was out

37:21

because India still had hope when Emastoni

37:24

was there. But Yuvrah Singh and Doni

37:26

were out within four balls of each

37:28

other. And a little bit, it reminded

37:30

me just ever so slightly of when

37:33

England won the ashes at the MCG

37:35

back in 2010-11. And a packed MCG

37:37

suddenly become a very... a very unpacked

37:39

MCG in no time at all. There

37:42

was a little bit of that and

37:44

so they then missed Holledick Pandya's fantastic

37:46

counter-attacking innings. You mentioned it there, 4,

37:48

4, 6, he hid as many boundaries.

37:51

as the rest of the Indian batters

37:53

put together. And the runout was so

37:55

stupid, because at that point, you almost

37:57

believed again that Hardick could turn the

38:00

game. He was batting on a different

38:02

plane. And he thought, are we about

38:04

to witness something utterly ludicrous? And then

38:06

he was run out. And then the

38:09

end just happened. Bang, bang, bang, bang.

38:11

All done. Shell-shocked Indian fans, delirious Pakistan

38:13

fans. And Artiff's brother forever in Artiff's

38:15

death. It's it's it's there's so much

38:18

going on in that game. I mean,

38:20

what do you think about it? I

38:22

mean, I remember what Daniel was talking

38:24

about. There was an interesting, they only

38:27

sort of pulled the ball into the

38:29

legside looking for the big six and

38:31

doesn't quite get a hold of it

38:33

and the catch is taken just in

38:36

front of a square leg. You know,

38:38

there was this mass exodus of Indian

38:40

fans and I remember being sent a

38:42

sequence of memes and clips online of

38:45

like Indian fans on their way to

38:47

Oval Station or you know, I don't

38:49

think it's unfair to say it can

38:51

be quite bullish about their abilities and

38:54

things like that. So it was very,

38:56

it was quite a striking visual and

38:58

just to touch upon Muhammad Amir as

39:00

well. I mean, Hasan Ali was the

39:03

player of the tournament. He took all

39:05

the wickets, he had all those magic

39:07

moments and he was absolutely at the

39:09

peak of his powers, but you know,

39:12

I remember Muhammad Amir giving an interview

39:14

and talking about how important this moment

39:16

was for him in terms of redemption.

39:18

you know, in this country, it looked

39:21

like that's what he was going to

39:23

be remembered for forever. That was going

39:25

to be the asterisk next to his

39:27

name, and it might well still be

39:30

there, but he can also have another

39:32

one next to it that says Champions

39:34

Trophy winner. He will always have those

39:36

two deliveries that he built to Verat

39:39

Koli. He was phenomenal on that day,

39:41

and he can still be phenomenal, sort

39:43

of seven years later, performing brilliantly in

39:45

the one game that he played in

39:48

the 100 in 2024, but, you know,

39:50

that was really peak Mohammedadame. Quite nice

39:52

to watch someone. you know he was

39:54

a very young man when he went

39:57

through that spot fixing situation 17 years

39:59

old and now older wiser you'd like

40:01

to think and just chastened by the

40:03

experience he really appreciated what he'd achieved

40:06

because He's won a World Cup before.

40:08

He won a T20 World Cup with

40:10

Pakistan in 2009, but that was before

40:12

everything went south. This was a true

40:15

redemption story for him. The emotion, watching

40:17

the Pakistan team when they lifted that

40:19

trophy, put on those white blazers. A

40:21

lot of the players still have them.

40:24

I saw a post from the Pakistan

40:26

cricket board on their Instagram of ruman

40:28

race who played in this tournament hasn't

40:30

featured a lot for Pakistan since, but

40:33

he was part of that. champions trophy

40:35

winning team and he's still got his

40:37

white blazer is a champions trophy winners

40:39

white blazer. I don't know how I

40:42

felt about the blazers at the time

40:44

but it's I suppose if you're part

40:46

of that winning team it's a very

40:48

special piece of a tie that you're

40:51

gonna treasure forever and probably put in

40:53

a suit jacket as well one of

40:55

those you know the suit jackets you

40:57

get for your fancy suits. Yeah it

41:00

was it was very emotional for many

41:02

many many reasons you know for so

41:04

for us armid who'd been criticized and

41:06

critiqued and you know put to the

41:09

sword for his own appointment and things

41:11

like that to be able to lift

41:13

that trophy winning Big tournaments being the

41:15

captain or being a part of that

41:18

team or being someone who puts a

41:20

performance in it writes you into the

41:22

folklore of that country's cricket forever You

41:24

know like you know Ben Stokes 2019,

41:27

I mean there's a few things Spencer's

41:29

going to be in English vocal forever,

41:31

but you know, couple Dev 1983, Imran

41:33

Khan, 1992, you know, Jay Saria and

41:36

in 1996, there's so many great players

41:38

who cement their greatness by doing it

41:40

in that spot, the final of a

41:42

global tournament in front of a packed

41:45

house, and I felt like Muhammad Amir.

41:47

you know he did that there and

41:49

it was it was it was a

41:51

great moment and it was a it

41:54

was a one of my favorite memories

41:56

of watching cricket my whole life yeah

41:58

and and indeed it really was a

42:01

special moment special occasion. Just finally Daniel,

42:03

short tournament, it was rattling on through

42:05

as they are champions trophies, but it

42:07

was a great tournament. Wonderful memories. Yeah,

42:10

it really was actually. I want nothing

42:12

but full memories. Despite the rain, the

42:14

rain was irritating at the time and

42:16

it's funny how you forget the rain,

42:19

don't you? But 2019 World Cup had

42:21

that as well. You remember Bristol had

42:23

a series of washouts and everyone was

42:26

saying you can't play cricket in England.

42:28

and you forget that because cricket has

42:30

a wonderful way of healing and recovering

42:32

itself and it recovered itself with the

42:35

final really with those sort of stand-out

42:37

moments and the format of the torch

42:39

itself sort of lends itself to that

42:42

it's so quick that you kind of

42:44

get over a disappointment of whatever's happened

42:46

before and then the highly charged atmosphere

42:48

of the final comes along and what

42:51

you notice is that it matters and

42:53

It's not, it's a mini world cup,

42:55

yes it is, you know, you play

42:57

a world cup and you play nine

43:00

group games, it goes on forever. What

43:02

that can sometimes mean is that you

43:04

have a slow lingering death. England had

43:07

that the last world cup and you've

43:09

got to fulfil fixtures and you don't

43:11

want them and actually the tournament itself

43:13

has got to put them on and

43:16

we're not really that fast by it.

43:18

There are dead rubbers and this that

43:20

and the other. There are no dead

43:22

rubbers here in a champion's trophy, really.

43:25

you've got to be on point at

43:27

all times, the players are under pressure,

43:29

they really really want to get that

43:32

trophy, they really really want to win.

43:34

And yeah, I just remember it, I

43:36

remember being able to experience the atmosphere,

43:38

it's probably my first World Cup or

43:41

World Tournament I should say, that took

43:43

place in England where I was working

43:45

on it and so I was going

43:48

to so many games and therefore able

43:50

to experience the different atmospheres from the

43:52

different teams that were playing across the

43:54

tournament. And it was lovely, you know,

43:57

you come out of it with such

43:59

lovely happy memories of Bangladesh fans, Sri

44:01

Lanka fans, India fans, Pakistan fans. Yeah,

44:03

it was great. Yeah, and it really

44:06

was. A special tournament particularly for that

44:08

Pakistan side in those... fabulous blazers at

44:10

the end walking around in the sunshine.

44:13

The ove also who will lift that

44:15

trophy in 2025 in Pakistan or potentially

44:17

the UAE we will find out. That

44:19

is it for this episode of the

44:22

TMS podcast and a reminder that the

44:24

BBC has full commentary of every ball

44:26

of the ICC men's champions trophy from

44:29

Pakistan and the UAE beginning on February

44:31

19th with the hosts Pakistan taking on

44:33

New Zealand. Our coverage UK time gets

44:35

underway from 8 to 45 in the

44:38

morning. and then England's first game is

44:40

against the old rivals Australia Saturday the

44:42

22nd live from the hall from 845

44:44

once again. Make sure you are subscribed

44:47

by the way to the TMS podcast

44:49

wherever you do get your pods. We'll

44:51

have regular offerings around the champions trophy

44:54

and to make sure you never miss

44:56

a thing. ensure that push notifications are

44:58

selected. So all of those podcasts come

45:00

straight to you. Dan Atif, thank you

45:03

very much indeed. Thanks for joining me

45:05

and for joining this podcast account. for

45:07

our preview as well on BBC Sounds

45:09

of the upcoming tournament. That is there

45:12

for you to enjoy. Thanks for listening.

45:14

We'll speak to you soon.