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Welcome to the Inside Track with

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me Rick Edwards. This is the podcast

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that takes you inside Formula One like

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never before. I'm Matt Magindie and thanks

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to my exclusive access I'll be getting

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this season. This week Matt will take

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you on a deep dive into a

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deep dive into race this season. This

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week Matt will take you on a

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deep dive into race strategy. He speaks

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the members of the Rebel team that

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probably wake up in a cold sweat

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shouting. B. B. C. Sounds.

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Music, radio, podcast. You're

0:39

listening to the TMS podcast

0:41

from B. B. C. Radio 5

0:43

Live. Welcome to the Test Match

0:45

Special Podcast and the second part

0:48

of the Cowdry Spirit of Cricket

0:50

Lecture, which the T. M. S.

0:52

team delivered at Lords. I was

0:55

joined on stage by Michael Vaughan,

0:57

Eberty at Rain for Brent and

0:59

Phil Tufnell. You're listening to the

1:02

TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5

1:04

live. How many days cricket you

1:06

think you've played here at Lordsville?

1:09

Well Craig, middle of six, why?

1:11

Twenty years I played for middle

1:13

of six. Over a thousand? Over, yes,

1:15

well over a thousand. You're an MCC

1:18

member? No. It's in the

1:20

post. It's in the post. It's

1:22

in the post. I remember all

1:24

those days of lamb chops and

1:27

spotted dick and gat and everything.

1:29

Yeah, I saw gat the other

1:31

day. Yeah, yeah, he's turned into

1:33

Henry VIII. Yes. He's like a

1:36

cue. He's like a cue. I know.

1:38

Now look, the spirit of cricket. Yes.

1:40

It's been a cricket. I think

1:42

it's been a cricket. I think

1:44

it's fair to say that I've

1:47

watched you. of your appearances. Sometimes

1:49

it's very occasionally, you might have

1:51

pushed that spirit of cricket line

1:53

just a little bit, but you're

1:55

actually quite a traditional soul, aren't

1:58

you? Well, yes, I think. As

2:00

you've all been saying, thanks for

2:02

having us by the way. It

2:04

is difficult. I think you know

2:06

it when you see it. And I

2:09

think you definitely know it when

2:11

you don't see it. And it

2:13

was interesting in this thing to

2:15

you about. When you don't see

2:17

it. Oh, I see. When you

2:20

think it's a contravention. Well, absolutely.

2:22

That's right. And we were talking

2:24

about Johnny Beaister and everything. And

2:26

I think I'm afraid of I'm

2:29

afraid of you, Agazole. Yes. I

2:31

think I'm afraid of you, Agazole.

2:33

Yes. Yes. I think I'm going

2:35

to know. He was absolutely. It

2:38

wasn't happy. Because he wasn't stealing

2:40

a run. He wasn't doing anything.

2:42

We've had that conversation anyway. No,

2:44

no, sure. So when you do

2:47

see it, I think it's very

2:49

difficult actually for players to sort

2:51

of embody it, actually. I think

2:53

almost we are the people who

2:55

are the spirits of cricket. You

2:57

know what I mean? Because the

2:59

players are. so in a bubble

3:01

and you're so in that sort

3:03

of moment you you fight in

3:05

and scrapping and ducking and weaving

3:07

that it's very very difficult to

3:09

actually sort of then sort of

3:11

like bring that out of yourself

3:14

I mean I went on 10

3:16

England tours you know foreign ambassador

3:18

for the country. How did you

3:20

see out from start to finish? No

3:22

but I mean I went over there and

3:24

it's funny you know but I mean I

3:26

went over there and it's funny you

3:28

know I don't. out of all of

3:31

those tours, I stayed in one night

3:33

of any of those tours. So you

3:35

are sort of... Is that sort of

3:37

a cricket? Well, no, it's not. But

3:39

I mean, it's sort of like, you

3:41

get in this bubble. Yes. I did

3:43

jot down the spirit of cricket, just

3:45

very briefly. Yeah. Disputing umpires decisions. Yes.

3:48

I've seen, I might have seen... Yeah,

3:50

that was a mistake. That was a

3:52

mistake. Are kicking a cap down to

3:54

the boundary when one's been given, not

3:56

out? Well, that's right. Well, it was sat in

3:58

Denmark, and it was the first time... you'd have

4:00

ever been stumped, you know what I

4:02

mean? And so you do then have

4:05

these moments of sort of... You know

4:07

what I mean? And it's very very

4:09

difficult because you're trying to make your

4:11

way in the game You're trying to

4:13

nick a few quid and you want

4:16

to be picked and you want to

4:18

represent your country and you're absolutely Strive

4:20

him for it. I mean it's interesting

4:22

you talk about umpas and everything I'll

4:24

tell you a little story about that

4:27

my first test match I don't think

4:29

they'd actually Let it almost from a

4:31

duty of care was at the MCG.

4:33

when I bowled that I sort of

4:35

run up and bow and after sort

4:37

of three or four out of three

4:40

or four balls. I'd go to the

4:42

umpire and I'd sort of go how

4:44

many left in the umpire. Sorry, how

4:46

many balls left in, you know, in

4:48

the over ump, like that. And so

4:51

I'd bold me first four balls of

4:53

my debut and it was a chap

4:55

called, I think it was Peter McConnell

4:57

was the umpire. Yes, the Australian umpire.

4:59

No, that's right, but they didn't have

5:02

any, yeah, neutral umpires or anything like

5:04

that. and he turned around to me

5:06

and said, count them yourself, you pommy-b'hmm.

5:08

And I went, I went, excuse me,

5:10

you can't talk to me like that.

5:13

But so that just shows, and I

5:15

think Michael touched on it, Michael touched

5:17

on it as well, different, different. Different

5:19

countries have different ideas of about the

5:21

spirit of the game. I think it's

5:24

very true, including the umpas. Ebs, a

5:26

cherubic face, I can't believe for a

5:28

minute that you cause any problems on

5:30

the field. Hello everyone festival, thanks for

5:32

having me. Firstly I'm grateful to Michael

5:35

for softening the blow when it came.

5:37

I wasn't sure if we were going

5:39

to come in and all say we

5:41

abide by all time and we're very

5:43

good on the pitch. I grew up

5:46

with three older brothers first of all.

5:48

I think it's worth... I'm the youngest,

5:50

three older brothers, so I'm just putting

5:52

into context that winning was very important

5:54

and you don't win as the youngest

5:57

sister by always playing perfectly by the

5:59

rules. So that was embedded in me

6:01

as I've got older, you know, I've

6:03

gone around the world, been fortunate to

6:05

play. And you know where it's, I

6:07

think... The spirit of cricket actually sometimes

6:10

is hardest in club cricket. Anyone here

6:12

who's played club cricket, I think that's

6:14

where it's harder than internationals. Internationals, there's

6:16

a million rules. There's police, there's TV,

6:18

there's a, but when you get to

6:21

a club game, this is where it

6:23

can go pair-shaped. So an example for

6:25

me, I ended up unfortunately finishing my

6:27

career with a two-match band. What? Love

6:29

that. Seriously? Yeah, it wasn't my fault

6:32

because actually... It never is ever any.

6:34

It wasn't my fault. So listen, anyone

6:36

who's played club creates, sometimes in the

6:38

leagues, there are some umpires which are

6:40

known on the circuit to favor their

6:43

own, you bring your home umpire, don't

6:45

you? So, you know, it's volunteers, you

6:47

bring your home umpire. So in this

6:49

particular league that we were playing, I

6:51

was playing for Shepperton, we were playing

6:54

a team in Hampshire, that I won't

6:56

mention their name, but they know who

6:58

they know who they know who they

7:00

know who they know who they know

7:02

who they know who they are. So

7:05

they're known to have this umpire that

7:07

had been a little bit sketchy with

7:09

decisions. So what also frustrated club cricket

7:11

is when internationals came back from playing

7:13

international cricket, came back from playing international

7:16

cricket, came back into club cricket, and

7:18

started scoring run. So anyway, I think

7:20

they're a bit annoyed that a couple

7:22

of the England girls had come back

7:24

to play. So we're smashing them everywhere,

7:27

by the way, just to let you

7:29

know, we were just getting stuck in,

7:31

cashing cashing. We've all bowled them. I've

7:33

bowled them. We went to third slip.

7:35

So I hadn't played a shot. I'd

7:37

got leaned back and across, saw the

7:40

ball, and just kind of left it.

7:42

So I turn around and the umpire's

7:44

got his hand up. Oh, mate, come

7:46

on, come on, come on, come on.

7:48

Of court? Yeah, court. So I said,

7:51

mate, I didn't play a shot. So

7:53

I, which I did, and the ball

7:55

was so wide, and basically the keep

7:57

and dive so far. drop not the

7:59

ball into things. It was just a

8:02

horrendous bit of cricket. Anyway, the wicketkeeper

8:04

decided to send me some choice swear

8:06

words and told me where the changing

8:08

room was, where the bar was, where

8:10

the police station was, all in swear

8:13

words. So she kicked off and I

8:15

said, look, this is this can't be

8:17

real. And then I think I saw

8:19

red mist. I may have possibly said choice

8:21

words all the way around from, we can

8:24

keep it all the way around and then,

8:26

that was me done. So I got told,

8:28

I agree, I think, I think Club Crickets

8:30

wears hardest leaves. Yeah, because...

8:32

You know, you get different levels of

8:34

people, different motivations. And I see things on

8:36

the telly as well, and they think, well,

8:38

that's all right, we can get away with

8:40

that. Yeah, the spirit cricket. So anyway, you know,

8:43

it's not my finest moment. No. And I

8:45

did retire after that, and I realize. I

8:47

think you're lucky to get two games. What

8:49

do you, with your ACE program, so young

8:51

Afro-Carabian kids? What do you teach them about

8:53

the spirit of cricket? Yeah, so we've got

8:55

charity amazing, we've got 20,000 kids around the

8:58

country in six different cities, and many are

9:00

making professionals. We just had a kid signed

9:02

to Sussex as a rookie the other day,

9:04

so we've got kids who want to make

9:07

it. I think, being honest, it's harder to

9:09

sell. Some of the things that we sold

9:11

to maybe my generation and before to

9:13

the younger generation So what I mean

9:15

is the kids will watch football and

9:18

you'll think of something like a mancad

9:20

And you'll say oh, maybe you should

9:22

give a warning like you saying earlier

9:24

And these kids will go all in

9:26

football. There's no warning that there's no

9:29

warning that there's offsize There's no warning

9:31

you're out to win in rugby and

9:33

a scrum. There's no politeness you're out

9:35

to win So I think it is

9:37

a little bit harder very important but

9:40

when it comes to those moments like

9:42

the Johnny Besto I agree I think the

9:44

kids will tell you we want to win

9:46

and I understand it and so it's a

9:48

little bit harder to get in that nuanced

9:50

space and you have debates and you have

9:52

conversations and when games go you know and

9:54

and I think the key is to make sure

9:57

you maintain that line of respecting opponents and

9:59

I think the key is also to

10:01

uphold the values of the game. You

10:03

know, you never want the game to

10:05

kind of just integrate, so therefore it

10:07

is important to maintain it. But it

10:10

is hard to say winning is priority,

10:12

and I think the younger generation have

10:14

just a little bit less, you know,

10:16

focus on... being polite and nice, and

10:18

they want to win. And I've always,

10:20

do not be honest, I used to,

10:23

when I started playing cricket, because I

10:25

played football, basketball, lots of different school

10:27

sports, I remember just thinking, why are

10:29

we clapping in the opposition? I wanted

10:31

to give them a stare down, and

10:33

I'm like, I really did, and I

10:36

was like, what is this about? And

10:38

it actually, you know, in hindsight, it...

10:40

I still struggle with things like that,

10:42

you know, if you're playing a game.

10:44

So you don't really mean it, do

10:47

you? No, because you don't, and you

10:49

really just want to, you want to

10:51

go into silence. So I think there

10:53

are some things that are harder to

10:55

explain, but equally respect. and knowing the

10:57

laws is where I think it's important.

11:00

It's funny actually, yeah, I had the

11:02

pleasure of bowling against Brian Lara for

11:04

two and a half days in Antigua.

11:06

Oh yeah. She got to know it

11:08

pretty well, isn't it? Yes, and when

11:10

he did get to 375, you just

11:13

mentioned it there, we were all sort

11:15

of going well. Well, it's test match

11:17

special back in the day. I think

11:19

it was 1997. And it just gives

11:21

a glimpse into what Testmatch Special was

11:23

like. Well, not in the early days,

11:26

but, well, 30 years ago or thereabout.

11:28

Testmatch Special is a program renowned for

11:30

its characters. Come on, let's go and

11:32

meet a few. It's a great shame.

11:34

A good backster. A producer. Good morning,

11:36

Fred's room and larger than another. Good

11:39

morning, Fred's book. Good morning, everyone. Good

11:41

morning! And there over there in the

11:43

call the Bearded Wonder. Good morning! There

11:45

we are. This is where it all

11:47

happens. Bill Frindle keeps his eye on

11:50

the facts and figures, and Fred's memory

11:52

of past matches is remarkable. You know

11:54

that you've got an audience out there.

11:56

You've got a captive audience, they're in

11:58

motor cars. probably the housewife or probably

12:00

she's in the garden or probably the

12:03

farmer doing his tractor and all these

12:05

sort of things who are interested in

12:07

the great game of cricket and so

12:09

you have the privilege of telling them

12:11

what it's all about the game you

12:13

love and being paid for it at

12:16

the same time which can't be better

12:18

come here that whole life coming. It

12:20

certainly isn't and our overseas friends keep

12:22

coming back. The ABC's commentator Neville Oliver

12:24

was given an unforgettable introduction. I remember

12:26

that Christopher Martin Jenkins, who is a

12:29

bit scatterbrained. I mean, no matter how

12:31

you want to paint it up, he

12:33

can be an absolute tweet at times.

12:35

He introduced me and he said, look,

12:37

I've worked with this man in Australia

12:40

so many times, it's my pleasure to

12:42

have the privilege to introduce him to

12:44

the English audience for the first time,

12:46

and I'm sure you'll enjoy the work

12:48

of Nigel Oswald. And it was an

12:50

absolute gem. Well, instead of sitting down

12:53

nervous, I, in fact, sat down roaring

12:55

with laughter. And isn't it amazing what

12:57

will break the nerves? And for me,

12:59

it was a terrific start. Frankly, it's

13:01

got better sense. Some people, it seems,

13:03

even resort to phoning us at awkward

13:06

moments. Paddock in, outside the off-stop, no

13:08

stroke there, from Taylor, and, um... The

13:13

commentary team ideally is a mix of

13:15

voices and styles and cricket lovers have

13:18

the one or two people with the

13:20

CMJ who's absolutely down the middle with

13:22

the cricket and then you're a bit

13:24

of both and I'm the idiot on

13:26

the outside and we're none of us

13:29

going to please everyone are we? There

13:31

we go, a bit of a reminder,

13:33

no it's lovely isn't it? Yeah it's

13:35

really nice. And it's some that Judy

13:37

Martin Jenkins is here and James as

13:40

well. It is remarkable. a relationship with

13:42

an audience that surely no other sports

13:44

program on the radio has. I mean

13:46

Tufts and I often do theatres and

13:48

thousands turn up. There is something about

13:51

that program, something about Testmatch Special, that

13:53

it is company. It's there for five

13:55

days at a time, or if Michael

13:57

Egg wants us for four days, which

13:59

there you go. And it is a

14:02

constant part of people's life, and it's

14:04

an extraordinary program to work on. When

14:06

did you first wear Michael of CMS?

14:08

I would think it was the 80s.

14:10

I would have been 1314. The ashes

14:13

would have been on. And I was

14:15

in bed with you, I guess. No,

14:17

you weren't. That predates even me, Michael.

14:19

But you've had, you've had, you've had

14:21

Christopher, you've had Brian Johnston, maybe. He

14:24

used to come out. Alan McElveray, the

14:26

Australian commentator. Yeah. But it's, I mean,

14:28

you probably, you probably, I hope you

14:30

remember, in 2009 I was retiring. I

14:32

was playing at Scarborough for Yorkshire. And

14:35

I knew my days with Dawn I

14:37

could hardly run. And you actually run,

14:39

I could hardly run. of all the

14:41

chairman of selectors or captain's coaches that

14:43

have asked me to play in a

14:46

cricket team. I would say that was

14:48

the best conversation that I'd received because

14:50

I'd been brought up listening to the

14:52

radio and to think that it's only

14:54

now that I've been found out, because

14:57

I used to say, you know, I'm

14:59

going to work. And now my daughters

15:01

now say to me, dad, that's not

15:03

work. You go to eat a bit

15:05

of cake and talk a bit of

15:08

nonsense and then have a few pints

15:10

at night. I said, yeah, that's pretty

15:12

much what we do, but it's, oh,

15:14

it's always a joy. It's a real

15:16

privilege to arrive at any cricket in

15:19

venue around the world to think that

15:21

we're there to talk a bit of

15:23

cricket. But there's something about the radio

15:25

that's very, very special. Yeah, it just

15:27

works, doesn't know, doesn't it, toughest, toughest,

15:30

toughest, toughest, toughest, toughest, toughest, toughest? sort

15:32

of, you know, imagination of anything. I

15:34

could remember sort of like sitting in

15:36

the back of my dad's full courtina,

15:38

you know, about five or six years

15:41

old or something, like going down to

15:43

bright and stuck in a traffic jam,

15:45

you know, with an ice cream or

15:47

something, and just these sort of like

15:49

words, sort of like wafting out of

15:52

the radio, you know what I mean,

15:54

which just sort of, and it was

15:56

just like... the backdrop to our summers

15:58

really, you know, my mom would be

16:00

making a dinner as you say, his

16:03

old friend would say, I mean, dad

16:05

would be mowing a bit alone or

16:07

something, and it was just on in

16:09

the background all summer, you know. And

16:11

one of his first words he ever

16:14

said to me, which I can remember,

16:16

was talking about the spirit of the

16:18

game, was it's just not cricket. And

16:20

that's a little bit gone out of

16:22

the sort of vocabulary now, you know

16:25

what I find. It's where I think

16:27

radio sets it apart from TV. is

16:29

that radio is that companion, and whereas

16:31

television will kind of talk at you,

16:33

or talk to you from the wall,

16:35

or wherever you have it, the number

16:37

of people who came up to me

16:39

and said, oh, I remember, I remember

16:41

where I was when I was listening,

16:43

like the Ben Stokes, it's coming before,

16:45

a heading, or whatever, because when you're

16:47

listening to the radio, you actually have

16:49

to engage your brain, you have to

16:51

actually make those... the words into images.

16:53

They kind of burn onto the memory,

16:55

don't they? But it's extraordinary how radio

16:57

does do that and the lasting images

16:59

that people have. But sometimes you have

17:01

to be serious, and Ebeney, you at

17:03

the moment, you've had quite a serious

17:05

job to do, away from TMS with

17:07

the women's cricket, a bit of a

17:10

shambles in Australia, let's be honest. I

17:12

mean, but a good thing... I wasn't

17:14

playing, I guess. No, he was. No,

17:16

I'm not blaming you for that. But a good thing that

17:18

women's cricket, which is progressing, and for whatever we say about the 100,

17:20

I mean, it's had a dramatic impact on women's cricket in a very

17:22

positive way. Good thing, there has now been a review into that, which

17:24

you'd have had in the men's game, for years, of course, that people

17:26

get sacked. Well, a couple of sackings for women's for women's for women's

17:28

cricket now, women's cricket now, women's cricket now, for women's cricket

17:30

now, women's cricket now, for women's cricket now, for women's

17:32

cricket now, for women's cricket now, for women's cricket now,

17:34

for women's cricket now, for women's cricket now, for women's

17:36

cricket now, for women's cricket now, for women's cricket now,

17:38

for women's cricket now, for women's cricket now, for women's

17:40

cricket now, for women's, for women Actually, that is happening

17:42

with Ms. Crickett. Yeah, this Women's Ashes was quite

17:45

a... You said a really good point. We were

17:47

doing a five live show. We do these sort

17:49

of Monday night shows. Suffers you're off the non-a-nite.

17:51

You guys kind of lead the way on that.

17:54

Where you talk about what's going on in the

17:56

cricket space and obviously lead on England cricket. And

17:58

normally when I've done these shows... in the past

18:00

and over the years it's like a five minute at

18:02

the very end of the show. You said we've done

18:05

45 minutes on the women's game out of a,

18:07

it was nearly 50 minutes out of an hour's show.

18:09

And to have leading voices like yourself know the insights

18:11

and outsides of the game, to know how much

18:13

people were commenting on it. This was serious business. The

18:15

public are invested, the public care and they don't want

18:18

to see England. in such a bad way losing

18:20

16-nilled down under in the women's format. So it was

18:22

quite a seminal moment for me realizing how important it

18:24

is for... the women to get it right and be

18:26

seen they're performing and they're at the same level

18:28

now they get paid I didn't get paid by the

18:30

way and now the girls are making the money so

18:33

you know it was it was one of those

18:35

moments I think there is that but that makes a

18:37

difference though doesn't it I mean they are now professionals

18:39

yeah do you think and I'm gonna bring up the

18:41

F word fitness which is I think it's always

18:43

been a difficult thing for a man to talk about

18:46

with a women's fitness I don't know fit enough, letting

18:48

the team down. And some of the members of

18:50

that team did not take that sort of criticism very

18:52

well. Are they being dragged into the professional age now?

18:54

Have they got to open their eyes a bit,

18:56

actually? Yeah, I think England and women are evolving into

18:59

the professional era and the Australian women have been professional

19:01

for a lot longer. And so the delicate line when

19:03

it comes to the fitness for women is the

19:05

honest answer is people will get nervous because of body

19:07

image. But there is also the professional side where the

19:10

honest answer is the Australians are way fitter than

19:12

England and their standards are higher and they're more ruthless.

19:14

And so even though England can at the moment compete

19:16

against most sides in the world and pretty much if

19:18

you look at the record, I think England had

19:20

won like 80% of bilateral series in the last couple

19:22

of years. England have been dominating. But when they go

19:25

against Australia and when the pressure hit in the

19:27

last couple of world series, those things are telling.

19:29

the fitness, the small margins.

19:31

And a good example for

19:33

me, Beth Mooney, who's an

19:35

Australian cricketer, in her early

19:38

career, wasn't considered fit by

19:40

Australia, and she got

19:42

dropped. She came and ran

19:44

more twos in the Ashes

19:46

series than the whole England

19:48

women's side. So if you

19:51

talk about fitness, things like

19:53

that go, look, the Aussies

19:55

are here, and the

19:57

England girls, we have to

19:59

accept that if we wanna

20:01

compete and take on the

20:04

best side, we have to

20:06

up our standards. So the

20:08

media in the room, I

20:10

think it's just a

20:12

natural evolution of understanding that

20:14

professionalism now for the women's

20:17

game equals more criticism, more

20:19

attention. And so I was

20:21

quite vocal in that, both

20:23

in the media, both

20:25

behind the scenes. And I

20:27

think now there have been

20:30

some changes that are gonna

20:32

say, look, this is the

20:34

future that England need to

20:36

focus on, up that professionalism,

20:38

not so that we

20:40

can dominate most teams, so

20:43

we can take on the

20:45

number one and overtake them.

20:47

Yeah, thanks. Just quickly, just

20:49

on the fitness thing, you

20:51

know, very early on in

20:53

my life. Sorry,

20:56

this is an

20:58

unexpected intervention, I'm gonna

21:00

say. Well,

21:02

no, you kind of, well, I decided

21:04

very early on that if you don't

21:06

have any muscles, you can't pull them. You're

21:10

listening to the TMS

21:12

podcast from BBC Radio 5

21:14

Live. And

21:16

what about England's white ball

21:18

captain, the men? We're

21:21

hearing all sorts of rumours here. Even

21:25

talk of Ben Stokes. Now, this

21:27

is rumour, this is rumour. His

21:29

legs will fall over. Well, I...

21:33

But it's quite a firm rumour,

21:35

isn't it? I mean, come on,

21:37

Michael, gonna let you off the

21:39

long run here. I think you're

21:42

on the same place here. Ben

21:44

Stokes, white ball captain of England

21:46

with the ashes coming up. No,

21:48

I think, you know, we've all

21:50

been around cricket long enough to

21:52

suggest that when they don't announce

21:54

a captain, they clearly have got

21:56

Ben in their thoughts. Harry Brook

21:58

will be the T20 captain. I

22:01

think that's gonna be announced soon.

22:03

That's something that I would expect.

22:05

And if Harry Brook's good enough

22:07

to be the T20 captain, the

22:09

next... World Cup is a teach when he woke up in a

22:11

year. So if you're saying that Harrybrook is deemed good enough to

22:13

caps in a World Cup in a year's time, surely you want

22:15

Harrybrook to be the captain of the 50-over team with that 50-over

22:18

cup in two and a half years to have. I think it's

22:20

absolutely nonsense to think that Ben Stokes he's going to play white

22:22

ball cricket. So do I. He's had a body that he gives

22:24

absolutely everything. And that's not just when he's playing when

22:26

he's playing for England. You know, I think

22:28

it's quite in a way selfish to even

22:31

consider him because he will say yes

22:33

Because it's Ben Stokes and they'll do

22:35

whatever England asked him to do Don't

22:37

ask him just let him be the best

22:39

and I have him right up there with

22:41

the best test captains I've ever seen with

22:43

what he delivers what he's delivered in the

22:45

last three years and the way that he's

22:47

got England playing the way that he's played

22:49

himself He's right up there with the best

22:52

I want to see Ben captain and it's

22:54

not just India this series in the summer.

22:56

It's not just this ashes series away from

22:58

obviously here in the UK. I want to

23:00

see him captain in 27 in the ashes

23:02

series. I want to see him get England

23:04

to a world test championship final. We've never

23:07

been in one. Why put the burden on

23:09

him playing whiteball cricket? It was only a

23:11

few weeks ago he pulled out the 100

23:13

because his body wasn't quite right. So

23:15

why are we even considering putting more? And

23:17

it's not pressure on them because he

23:19

deals with pressure better than anybody. So it's

23:22

not the pressure, it's just, let's just look

23:24

after his body, let's look after Ben Stokes'

23:26

body and let's try and make him play

23:28

Test Match Cricket for as long as possible.

23:30

I agree. Let him get an Ashley series

23:32

in his hand, another Ashley series. I just

23:34

can't. I can't imagine what the reaction would

23:37

be. If he did that hammer swing or

23:39

any injury, frankly, playing in a white ball

23:41

game for him and with that World Cup

23:43

two and a half years away, it seems

23:45

utterly pointless. Tough as what's your thoughts on

23:47

that, have you got any? Well, no, I

23:49

mean, well, yes. It's all dwelling on your

23:52

fitness. Well, no, I totally agree with

23:54

my quick, I think probably Harry Brooke.

23:56

I was, you know, I mean, they've

23:58

been mentioning, they've been mentioning. sort of

24:00

like likes of Sam Billings, James Vince,

24:02

but now they've sort of gone away

24:04

and they've been a bit too old

24:06

now aren't they? So I'm probably going

24:09

to go for someone like a you

24:11

know a Harry Brooke I mean he's

24:13

still very young isn't he but you

24:15

know why not throw these these youngsters

24:17

in because then in the future you're

24:19

going to reap the rewards. Do you?

24:21

Yes, I do. I like it. They

24:23

win some games that they don't have

24:26

loose summer. Well they do. I think

24:28

it needs a little bit of, yes,

24:30

I think it needs a little bit

24:32

of tweaking. But, you know, and just

24:34

to sort of like be a little

24:36

bit smarter at it, you know what

24:38

I mean? I mean, the game here

24:40

against Australia was just on my head

24:42

in my hands, was it. Nathan and

24:45

I walked off with a one. They're

24:47

absolutely gone, so they just need to

24:49

dial it down a little bit and

24:51

be a bit smarter. But we know

24:53

turning up every day to test match

24:55

cricket now, it's really exciting, is it?

24:57

We don't know whether they're going to

24:59

get bold out in half an hour

25:01

or get 750. So, you know, and

25:04

so you are sitting there, you know,

25:06

and I can remember Joe Root reverse

25:08

sweeping at, pancoming. I'm trying to forget

25:10

it. I really fell off my chair,

25:12

you know what I mean? There's obviously

25:14

a balance and a blend that they've

25:16

got to find, but I'm thinking that

25:18

that is the way to go. As

25:21

you say, Mike was saying earlier, you

25:23

know, it's about entertaining. You know, I

25:25

mean, and I am sat on that

25:27

desk. It's also about winning. It's also

25:29

about winning. Yes, it is. Yes, it

25:31

is. The winning will come more often

25:33

if you're playing that way. If you

25:35

start going into your shell, you're not

25:37

going to win bloody anything. The only

25:40

way you win test cricket now is

25:42

go out there and be front foot

25:44

cricketers. And that's how you win things.

25:46

And I love sitting there now. I

25:48

mean, we go, Mike said it, we

25:50

have got the best job in the

25:52

world. We sit there, cup of tea

25:54

and everything. you know, say a bridge

25:57

and look in and it's just, it

25:59

seems rolling, lovely, for ball watch. It's

26:01

exciting. Michael, Ash's winner, basketball, can it

26:03

win the ashes? Or will it win

26:05

the ashes? I think in three years

26:07

I've been more entertained watching than I

26:09

have been before, but they won't win

26:11

just playing one way. You know, you've

26:13

got to, you have the incentive when

26:16

you play Australia to be aggressive. That's

26:18

first and foremost that you have to

26:20

have that mindset of right we're going

26:22

to get on the front for this

26:24

team have that You know without any

26:26

question they got on the front for

26:28

quicker and sometimes better than I've seen

26:30

any England team But you can't win

26:32

just playing one way So when you

26:35

get on to Australia per the first

26:37

test match if England has that skill

26:39

set and that mindset to get on

26:41

top which they could You can't allow

26:43

Australia back in And with the way

26:45

that they played in the last Ashley

26:47

series here, I go to Edgebast in

26:49

the first test match. They were dominating

26:52

that game in the second innings. The

26:54

bat in the control in the game.

26:56

They can't lose. Nathan Line got five

26:58

wickets. There wasn't one fielder around the

27:00

bat. Nathan Line then walked away from

27:02

the game here at Lords. England top-edged

27:04

every pull shot. They get bowled out.

27:06

They lose the game. The two and

27:08

two and all down. So Nathan line

27:11

only played really one game of cricket.

27:13

So, when you go to Australia in

27:15

a few months' time, their bowling attack

27:17

is very, very good. And the game

27:19

of cricket in Australia has not changed.

27:21

The cooker ball for 25 hours, it's

27:23

going to do plenty. And it'll fly

27:25

through. And particularly in the first innings,

27:28

Cummings, Cummings Hazor would start, Boland, Nathan

27:30

Line, whichever attack they go for, they

27:32

will land it on a sixpence, and

27:34

they'll have a packed cordon, and they'll

27:36

say to the Baz ballers, theirs you

27:38

drive. There's you drive. I can also

27:40

see 50 for 5 on a regular

27:42

basis. But if they have the mindset

27:44

of realizing that is when Australia at

27:47

their most threatening and going, okay, we've

27:49

just got to go back in the

27:51

gear slightly. I'm not saying... Go back

27:53

in the gear slightly and you earn

27:55

the right. So if you're about for

27:57

30 hours with a cooker ball and

27:59

say you're 70 for 1, the next

28:01

50 hours to the second you bought

28:03

you can absolutely dictate and dominate. And

28:06

you can score at 5, sometimes 6s,

28:08

because it does nothing. All you have

28:10

to do is work out how you're

28:12

going to play Nathan Lion. I get

28:14

a feeling that I'm going to just

28:16

going to go out and attack fully.

28:18

Try and get on the front foot.

28:20

And by the way, we'll sit on

28:23

common. You go, wow, wow, that's a

28:25

great shot. And oh, sneak. And I'll

28:27

give you a clue. And it's happened

28:29

for many, many Australia don't drop chances.

28:31

That quartet. And if Bowe-Websters there, Cameronin,

28:33

they'll albatrosses. They catch absolutely everything. So

28:35

don't give them the opportunity. So if

28:37

England go with this one way of

28:39

playing, I think they'll get beat. If

28:42

they play smart cricket and their bowlers

28:44

are fit, and that's the key, you've

28:46

got to get 20 wickets. You know,

28:48

and to get 20 wickets, you've got

28:50

to have different skill sets. It's not

28:52

just about pace. Yes, it's nice to

28:54

have one or two bowlers bowl in

28:56

90 miles an hour, but for what

28:58

I've seen in Australia, particularly in the

29:01

last couple of seasons. The pitches are

29:03

doing more than I've seen. So Scott

29:05

Boling, back of a length. and then

29:07

you go short too early because of

29:09

the pace. England have got to find

29:11

bowlers that can hit the top of

29:13

Austin. If they hit the top of

29:15

the offstone with a little bit of

29:18

movement and they challenge Australia to forward

29:20

defence, they have a chance of getting

29:22

20 wickets. If they don't, it'll be

29:24

a long old winter. Well, let's hope

29:26

not. We must have everybody forget India,

29:28

first of all, but it's going to

29:30

be a wonderful series here, isn't it?

29:32

Yeah, look, I mean India are pretty

29:34

much dominating aren't they? They've just come

29:37

off the champions trophy. I mean things

29:39

did lean in their favor, but they

29:41

are going to be pretty tasty at

29:43

home. I'm looking forward to this one.

29:45

I think their batting has been consistent

29:47

look at Vira Koli, the KELRA halls.

29:49

I think they're going to go quite

29:51

well here. The question is if the

29:54

likes of bumra and those... guys are

29:56

fit. We're going to have a real

29:58

battle on our hands, but I look

30:00

forward to that. I think that when

30:02

you look at series, England and Australia

30:04

is what you look forward to at

30:06

home. And I'd like to see what

30:08

England have actually done, bringing through new

30:10

fresh blood, guss, Atkinson, bride and cast.

30:13

Can they test in home conditions? Can

30:15

they get the ball moving as well,

30:17

which is important, as well as that

30:19

pace? So I think it's going to

30:21

be a real test here this summer.

30:23

And it's a chance for England

30:25

to really settle in. This whole

30:27

Bazzball, I agree. I think it's

30:29

been one of the most fantastic

30:31

times ever. I think I remember

30:33

at Headingley as well, when Ben

30:35

Stokes was going for that 180,

30:37

and most people thought it was

30:39

done. And Adam Mountford remember, I

30:41

was one of the few that

30:43

said, England could win here the

30:46

night before, and did it. And

30:48

I was like, yeah, just a

30:50

little one. But I do enjoy this

30:52

format. plenty of people interested. People who

30:54

get into a car and a taxi driver is

30:56

a little bit into sport but not necessarily cricket,

30:58

knows about this modern era and knows about it

31:00

and is drawn in by some of the drama.

31:03

So if we can now convert that. and like

31:05

you say playing with a bit more nuance

31:07

at the right time I think this could be

31:09

a really good moment for test cricket for

31:11

English cricket. Well thanks for listening

31:14

to this special TMS podcast on

31:16

the MCC spirit of cricket cadre

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