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Welcome to the Inside Track with

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me Rick Edwards. This is the podcast

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that takes you inside Formula One like

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never before. I'm Matt Magindie and thanks

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to my exclusive access I'll be getting

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this season. This week Matt will take

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you on a deep dive into a

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deep dive into race this season. This

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week Matt will take you on a

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deep dive into race strategy. He speaks

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the members of the Rebel team that

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probably wake up in a cold sweat

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Sounds. Music, radio,

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podcast. You're listening

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to the TMS podcast from

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B. B. B. C. Radio 5

0:46

Live. Hello, I'm Daniel Norcross. Welcome

0:48

to the Testmatch Special Podcast, reflecting

0:50

on a seismic few days for

0:52

the England women's team. Head coach

0:54

John Lewis is gone, how the

0:56

night is no longer captain, so

0:59

where does the site go from

1:01

here? We'll hear from England World

1:03

Cup winner Alex Hartley, as well

1:05

as former England batter Lydia Greenway,

1:07

and BBC sport journalist, Fion Win,

1:09

to try to find answers to

1:11

the vast amount of questions the

1:13

ECB face. You're listening to the

1:15

TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5

1:17

live. So let's begin by hearing

1:19

the thoughts of Alex Hartley, who's

1:22

been speaking to Mark Chapman on

1:24

Five Lives Sport, who began by

1:26

talking about the peaks of Heather

1:28

Knight's tenure as captain. Here comes

1:30

Charlie Dean. Bolster-Johnson, it's got in the

1:32

air, should be a catch. It is,

1:34

England has won the ODI series, the

1:37

women's ashes is drawn, it

1:39

is an extraordinary achievement. Yes,

1:42

Australia will be lifting that trophy,

1:44

but make no mistake, the celebrations

1:46

will belong to England tonight because

1:49

Australia, they don't lose series, they

1:51

barely lose games. Shropsle, and now,

1:53

both for Bozon! Six, we can find

1:55

you, Shropsle, in... game

2:07

we've just found a way to get over

2:09

tight over the line in tight games and

2:12

so proud of those girls they've really fought

2:14

hard and that's all asked for them and

2:16

your shop show at the start of the

2:18

tournament she wasn't in rhythm she wasn't bowling

2:21

well and for her to come to Lords

2:23

and bowl at that and witness the game

2:25

under huge pressure yes amazing amazing it was

2:27

an amazing time in 2017 And Heather has

2:30

been an amazing leader for England over the

2:32

last nine years and as she said in

2:34

a statement all good things must come to

2:36

an end and the writing was probably

2:39

on the wall after the ashes

2:41

campaign in Australia. Obviously the coach

2:43

got the sack yesterday and Heather's

2:45

stepped down today but an unbelievable

2:47

leader and someone that will I

2:49

guess still help on a leadership

2:51

front moving forward even though she'll

2:53

just be concentrating on herself. Well

2:55

I suppose what the England women see

2:58

is what... the England men have done

3:00

and the sort of rejuvenation

3:02

of Joe Root within the

3:04

system of a team led

3:06

by Ben Stakes. Absolutely,

3:08

and if you look at Heather now,

3:10

she's actually playing the best she's played

3:12

in a in a number of years,

3:14

you know, she's dominating the game in

3:17

all formats. And so, hopefully with a

3:19

little bit of pressure off her shoulders

3:21

now, and you know, there's been questions

3:23

over the last couple of years, every

3:25

time they get knocked out of a

3:28

World Cup, they don't do well in

3:30

an Ashley series. The question is, are

3:32

you the right person for this team?

3:34

And she's the right person for another

3:36

level. of what happened in the ashes and

3:38

because of John Lewis going and also

3:41

Kate Cross after the ashes talked about maybe

3:43

the culture not being quite right. If the

3:45

culture isn't quite right, do you think it

3:47

is correct that both head coach and

3:49

captain go? Absolutely. I think as

3:51

I said, I think the writing was on

3:53

the wall. It's never an easy decision and

3:56

whoever's made those decisions at the top. It's

3:58

taken a while, you know, the ashes. she's

4:00

finished a long time ago so they've

4:02

had a review they've had all those

4:04

meetings but yeah I absolutely think it's

4:06

the right decision and it's time for

4:09

a fresh start for this England team. Do

4:11

you have a concern that in the

4:13

T20 she went off injured England kind

4:15

of fell apart without her and then

4:17

there was this huge discussion about

4:20

well if Heathernight isn't there where

4:22

is their on-field leadership coming from

4:24

so is that a concern for

4:26

you? Yeah, and absolutely I think that for

4:28

me has been one of the biggest

4:30

downfalls over the last five or six

4:33

years that there isn't a standout candidate

4:35

that is going to take over the

4:37

captaincy when you you can lose games

4:39

to Australia. They're the best team in

4:41

the world. They're so good at cricket.

4:43

But when you look at Australia, they've

4:46

probably got five, six, seven people that

4:48

could take over the captaincy. When you

4:50

look at England, you're going, oh, we could

4:52

give it her. She could have a standout

4:54

person now that goes. right there the

4:56

next England captain. What kind

4:58

of person do you want to see?

5:01

What and also often when we ask

5:03

this as well it depends on what

5:05

their role is within the side

5:07

because you don't you don't want

5:09

to overburden someone do you? Absolutely

5:11

not. I think in all honesty they

5:14

need a really strong coach moving forward

5:16

so they need somebody that can get

5:18

that culture right, they can control the

5:20

group and sort out the problems within

5:22

the dressing room and a captain can

5:24

then come in and obviously have strong

5:26

opinions and work alongside the coach but

5:28

also... a fresh person, a young person

5:30

for me, somebody like Charlie Dean to

5:32

throw a name in the hat, I

5:35

think she'd be an exceptional leader who

5:37

will play cricket for England for a

5:39

number of years. So I mean you

5:41

talk about the head coach there, John

5:43

Lewis lost his job during the week,

5:45

there we are told there is

5:47

an outstanding candidate in Charlotte Edwards

5:50

who was the previous captain before

5:52

Heather night. Yeah, there's no really, not

5:54

really any more names being thrown in the hat

5:56

for that one, is there? So, you know, Charlotte

5:59

Edwards has been talked. about a lot and

6:01

I know it's something that she's put down

6:03

in the past before John Lewis took over

6:05

she was like no now is not the

6:07

right time she's basically come out and said

6:09

pick me I'm available I'm ready for when

6:11

you want me so if the ECB decides

6:13

to go down that route I think she'd

6:15

be a brilliant head coach because she doesn't

6:18

take any nonsense you know she'll really get

6:20

hold of this team and she'll know how

6:22

to I guess make the standards better so

6:24

they can compete under pressure and that's what

6:26

she did so well for such a long

6:28

period of her career was coping under pressure

6:31

and that's ultimately where this England team have

6:33

failed over the last couple of years. Her

6:35

coaching record is outstanding and global. as

6:37

well. Yeah, she's just won the WPL

6:40

again for the second time in three

6:42

years. She's a freak of a coach.

6:44

I don't know what it is. I've

6:46

never been coached by her, but everybody

6:49

that has says she's absolutely outstanding. She

6:51

gives you free reign to work things

6:53

out by yourself to have that responsibility,

6:56

but she also doesn't take any nonsense

6:58

alongside it. And I think that's what

7:00

England need right now. Just to throw

7:02

one of the question in there then. So

7:04

the ECB managing director is Claire

7:07

Connor. predecessor as captain. So on

7:09

the one hand it's sort of

7:11

coming full circle and this is

7:13

not, we've already said what a

7:15

great coaching career Charlotte Edwards has

7:17

had already, but sort of Connor

7:20

Edwards and Knight have been the

7:22

three dominant figures for, well how

7:24

many years would, 20 more? Yeah, a

7:26

very long time and I think that... Is

7:28

that a good thing? Well I don't think

7:30

it's necessarily a bad thing because

7:33

they've all obviously gone into different roles

7:35

but... When we're looking now at who's

7:37

going to take over from Heather Night,

7:39

there's a lack of leaders within that

7:41

group. So these three women that are

7:44

now, you know, have been in and

7:46

around the ECB for 20 years. They're

7:48

three standout leaders. We need more leaders

7:50

moving forward so that we can widen

7:52

that pool of women in the game.

7:54

Alex Harley there, talking to Mark

7:57

Chapman on Saturday. I'm alongside

7:59

former England. Lydia Greenway. Lydia, was

8:01

it inevitable that John Lewis and

8:03

Heather Knight were going to be

8:06

held accountable for such a disastrous

8:08

winter? Yeah, I think it was to

8:10

be honest. I think the coach more

8:12

so I think obviously John Lewis came

8:14

in I think November 2022 and as

8:17

you say he actually started pretty well

8:19

the ashes series that was at home

8:21

in 2023. It was a draw in

8:23

the end it was at all and

8:25

England played some really good cricket but...

8:27

since that series I think they were

8:30

lulled into a full sense of security

8:32

because in the women's game that when

8:34

there's lots of bilateral series a team

8:36

like England should always win or always

8:38

beat the opposition that they're playing against

8:41

with all due respect to those teams.

8:43

So their only real opportunity to see

8:45

where they're at as a team is

8:48

when they come up against Australia because

8:50

that's the team they should be measuring

8:52

themselves against and unfortunately since that home

8:54

ashes series where it was at all.

8:57

they just sort of couldn't find a

8:59

way to perform in the big moments.

9:01

Obviously they bowed out in the group

9:04

stages of the most recent T20 World

9:06

Cup and this Ashes series was

9:08

for me personally to watch that

9:10

it was really hard to watch

9:12

and so so disappointing. There was

9:14

a lot of talk about culture and

9:16

team culture and I suppose the coach

9:18

is very important in setting that tone

9:21

so is the captain as well you

9:23

would say but before you move on

9:25

to... Heather Knight. What was the

9:28

sort of style of

9:30

John Lewis's coaching? I think

9:32

so in the women's game we've

9:34

had a number of different coaches

9:36

who have come in and they've

9:38

had very different styles and I

9:41

think in the past it's sometimes

9:43

been a little bit too instructional

9:45

the the sort of ropes have

9:47

been quite tight in terms of

9:49

what players can and can't do

9:51

and and I think at times

9:53

players have quite suppressed with that

9:55

and so John Lewis then comes

9:57

in and he's been the opposite.

10:00

given the players a lot of slack

10:02

in terms of what they can and

10:04

can't do on and off the pitch

10:06

and I think that has potentially with

10:08

all the intentions that he had which

10:11

were the best intentions you know I've

10:13

spoken to him and he's a really

10:15

good guy he really has loved being

10:17

involved in the women's game I'm sure

10:19

he wants to continue being involved but

10:21

I just wonder whether he will reflect

10:24

on that and think okay did I

10:26

get that quite right did I set

10:28

the standards that were needed did I

10:30

challenge the play enough? Did I make

10:32

sure that they were held accountable to

10:34

their performances? And I think what we've

10:37

seen is that they haven't. I think

10:39

we've seen a lack of accountability. I

10:41

think we've seen the standards drop, which

10:43

is a real shame. And I think

10:45

this whole sort of last couple of

10:48

years will be a big learning experience

10:50

for everyone involved. Often when you get...

10:52

a sort of seismic moment like this.

10:54

People look to have a completely opposite

10:56

type of coach. I mean, you know,

10:58

Andy Flower being replaced by, I can

11:01

beat different kind of coach in the

11:03

men's game, for example. Who do you

11:05

think, I mean, there's obviously one very,

11:07

very obvious candidate, somebody that you've worked

11:09

with, let's just say it out loud.

11:12

Charlotte Edwards, A, think she's up for

11:14

it, and B, do you think her

11:16

style will be sufficiently different from the

11:18

Lewis style? Yeah, I think, I feel

11:20

that I haven't actually spoken to her,

11:22

but I feel this is the perfect

11:25

time for Charlotte Edwards to come into

11:27

this role. I think when the role

11:29

was initially up, I think she probably

11:31

would have liked to have a little

11:33

bit more experience in that head coach

11:35

role. And since then, she's had two

11:38

years obviously with the Mumbai Indian, she's

11:40

had more time with the Sydney sixes,

11:42

obviously here in England, she's been with

11:44

Hampshire and Southern Braves. So this is

11:46

a perfect time for Charlotte Edwards to

11:49

come. And I think in terms of

11:51

her style, I think she's the hybrid.

11:53

I think she's the best of both,

11:55

having obviously played with her throughout. majority

11:57

of my career and worked with her

11:59

as a coach. She's got the perfect

12:02

balance of making sure the players are

12:04

accountable for what they're doing on and

12:06

off the pitch but also bringing in

12:08

a bit of fun, understanding that players

12:10

can't be robots all the time and

12:12

recognizing moments when okay guys you can

12:15

go and have a bit of fun

12:17

now so I might be biased but

12:19

I think she's the only name that

12:21

England should be looking at. Yes they

12:23

will have to go through the process

12:26

I'm sure. someone like Matthew Mott might

12:28

bring in put their name into the

12:30

hat or the other John Lewis who

12:32

is currently with the England A team

12:34

at the moment out in Australia they

12:36

might be two other candidates but if

12:39

I'm the ECB I don't think they

12:41

should be looking any further. You did

12:43

say that you've worked with Charlotte Edwards

12:45

before which you have could you be

12:47

tempted to do it again? As in

12:50

a coaching role do you mean? I

12:52

always love working with Charlotte Edwards and

12:54

like her I'm just passionate about what

12:56

this England team does. So yeah I

12:58

don't know but yeah I would love

13:00

to see her do the role. Now

13:03

if she does take over and a

13:05

lot of people think that she will

13:07

she's gonna have to firstly appoint a

13:09

new captain. because there's no Heather Night.

13:11

Now Heather Night has been captain for

13:13

the best part of nine years, came

13:16

in, replaced Charlotte Edwards in 2016, again

13:18

after a sort of similar thing, you

13:20

know, a failure in a T20 World

13:22

Cup called a semi-final when England failed

13:24

to chase and just looked slightly off

13:27

the pace and Charlotte Edwards herself had

13:29

been in the role for a very

13:31

long time. Before that it had been

13:33

Claire Connor, there had been three captains

13:35

of England in the last 25 years.

13:37

Although Heathernight has obviously sort of taken

13:40

the fall for what's happened in the

13:42

ashes, we've got to look beyond that

13:44

ashes, haven't we? Look at her legacy

13:46

over the last nine years. Yeah, I

13:48

think that's a great point then because

13:50

I think sometimes people just remember the

13:53

last thing that you do as a

13:55

player and... actually, Heather Knight is so

13:57

much better than what has happened in

13:59

the last 12 months or so. I

14:01

think we have to remember how she

14:04

led the side to that 2017 World

14:06

Cup win. The runs that she has

14:08

scored in the middle order for England,

14:10

she has so many, on so many

14:12

occasions, she has got England out of

14:14

tricky problems along with Naziva Brunt. And

14:17

she's been a stalwart, she's been calm,

14:19

she's been resilient, she sets the standards

14:21

off the pitch, I think. when I

14:23

was playing with her, she was always

14:25

one of the best at fitness testing

14:28

and she probably wasn't the most naturally

14:30

gifted in terms of that athleticism. Hopefully

14:32

she won't mind me saying that. But

14:34

she was always the one who worked

14:36

the hardest and I think as a

14:38

captain if you've got someone like that

14:41

setting the standard then it only wants

14:43

you to push yourself as well. Now

14:45

we're assured that she wants to continue

14:47

playing, much as Joe Roater's continued playing

14:49

after being England men's captain for quite

14:51

a long time. How difficult will that

14:54

be for her? Because she's been the

14:56

sort of the Supremo. She's not just

14:58

being captain. I mean, she's been more

15:00

than a captain for those nine years.

15:02

How do you go back into the

15:05

ranks? I don't know Dan I think

15:07

that is a really hard thing to

15:09

do particularly given that she did it

15:11

for so long and I also think

15:13

it will be interesting dynamic for the

15:15

captain coming in as to how they

15:18

will feel about it if it is

15:20

someone like that silver brunt I think

15:22

that will be a fine dynamic because

15:24

they've obviously played with each other for

15:26

a long long time and I think

15:29

they have a good understanding of how

15:31

each other work but I think for

15:33

Heather personally I think she would just

15:35

have to get a head around about

15:37

okay how much input and I have

15:39

as a person who's just in the

15:42

team as a player rather than the

15:44

captain. So yeah that will be a

15:46

tricky one to navigate. I mean it's

15:48

something of an indictment of English women's

15:50

cricket though that it's not obvious who

15:52

would be that replacement. Now that's everybody's

15:55

the vice captain but of course she

15:57

was on the field when everything fell

15:59

apart in that T20 group game against

16:01

the West Indies. She's not always looked

16:03

like the most natural captain and you'd

16:06

sort of imagine that they might want

16:08

to bring, you know, a fresh, fresh

16:10

face. Could it be somebody really outside

16:12

the setup? Someone like, you know, Holly

16:14

Armitage or... dare I say Grace Grievans?

16:16

Or is it going to be somebody

16:19

who's already there? Yeah, I mean the

16:21

other name is Charlie Dean. My opinion

16:23

is if they're not good enough to

16:25

be playing in the England 11, then

16:27

you can't bring in a specialist captain.

16:29

But if they are, that's absolutely fine.

16:32

The other name is Charlie Dean. She

16:34

plays all formats, so, yeah, time will

16:36

tell. Thanks to Lydia Greenway for joining

16:38

us. Stay with us. We'll continue talking

16:40

about the future of the England women's

16:43

team shortly. Yeah. Welcome

16:47

to the Inside Track with me Rick

16:49

Edwards. This is the podcast that takes

16:51

you inside Formula One like never before.

16:53

I'm Matt Magindie and thanks to my

16:56

exclusive access I'll be getting up close

16:58

and personal with Rebel racing this season.

17:00

This week Matt will take you on

17:02

a deep dive into a deep dive

17:05

into race this season. This week Matt

17:07

will take you on a deep dive

17:09

into race strategy. He speaks the members

17:11

of the Rebel team that probably wake

17:14

up in a cold sweat shouting. So

17:16

I'm pleased to say that BBC sport

17:18

journalist Fion Win joins me now. Fionn,

17:21

we were just talking with Lydia there

17:23

about John Lewis's successor. Who would your

17:25

pick me? Yeah, Charlotte Edwards does seem

17:27

like the obvious contender as Lydia was

17:30

saying there. you know she she spoke

17:32

quite openly last time the vacancy came

17:34

up in in 2022 about just wanting

17:36

a little bit more experience and she

17:39

certainly has achieved that and and a

17:41

massive amount of success with that experience

17:43

as well she's won the 100 she's

17:45

won five domestic titles with Southern Vipers

17:48

and she's won two WPL titles now

17:50

with Mumbai Indians so you know not

17:52

only is she got more experience but

17:55

she She knows how to win and

17:57

she had that knack as a player

17:59

and as a captain as well. And

18:01

when we think of the transition that

18:04

England are in, you know, with a

18:06

new captain and a new coach needing

18:08

to... kind of rebrand themselves trying to

18:10

rebuild with some youth coming in alongside

18:13

blending the experience of Heather Knight back

18:15

into the ranks. It does seem like

18:17

there is nobody better in terms of

18:19

the CV that that she's got and

18:22

she knows the international game so well

18:24

it does feel like it's a no-brainer

18:26

for the ECB from here. Well I

18:29

tend to agree with you entirely but

18:31

some people will say you know she's

18:33

going to be a bit too close

18:35

in a way to Heather night because

18:38

she was indeed Heather's captain towards the

18:40

back end of her own career. We're

18:42

talking with Lydia just now about how

18:44

captains have been in in post for

18:47

so long that Charlotte was actually captaining

18:49

England when Natsivabront was playing as well.

18:51

So is that in any way awkward

18:53

or is that actually a positive? I

18:56

think it could be a positive and

18:58

I also think we need to remember

19:01

that this is a really, this is

19:03

brand new territory for England, you know,

19:05

they've had three captains, three permanent captains

19:07

since the start of 2000. So this

19:09

is something that we're really not used

19:12

to, this doesn't happen. So it does

19:14

feel inevitable. because of how long Charlotte

19:16

Edwards was captain for, because of how

19:18

long Heather Knight was captain for, that

19:20

there probably was always going to be

19:23

a little bit of that overlap and

19:25

that kind of conflict, but I think

19:27

you know with the women's game now

19:29

these coaches and these plays work together

19:31

so often around the world in franchise

19:34

cricket and domestic cricket and I think

19:36

you know the likes of Heather Knight

19:38

and let's say Nancy Brunt if she

19:40

is the next captain and you know

19:42

they are experienced enough to kind of

19:45

deal with those you know potential tensions

19:47

those emotions and you know Heather Knight

19:49

has said herself as well she she's

19:51

very keen to get back into the

19:54

batting ranks and and enjoy that side

19:56

of her game again so Yeah, I

19:58

think I think it is something that

20:00

they be able to manage pretty well

20:02

and as Alex and Lydia have said

20:05

Charlotte Edwards is she's a tough coach

20:07

she's a disciplined coach and but she's

20:09

also aware of the balance of the

20:11

work-life balance that players need to. Now

20:13

you are out in the women's ashes

20:16

out in Australia so you're really well

20:18

positioned to say what you think were

20:20

the failings of that England side now

20:22

the obvious ones from us watching on

20:24

back in England were you know they

20:27

dropped too many catches they failed to

20:29

chase down a modest target. But was

20:31

there something else at play? I mean,

20:33

there's a lot of talk about culture

20:35

and attitude, and those are going to

20:38

be the challenges that Charlotte Edwards faces.

20:40

Did you sort of see that as

20:42

a bit of a problem while you

20:44

were out there in Australia? Yeah, I

20:46

think that picked up. And that sort

20:49

of thing is, is highlighted, you know,

20:51

the more you lose and England just

20:53

got into this terrible rut of losing,

20:55

they were losing from winning positions, they

20:57

were then getting completely outplayed and everything

21:00

was spiraling and the wheels were coming

21:02

off on the field and when that

21:04

happens, naturally people back home, people in

21:06

the media will focus on. the off

21:08

field stuff and the perceptions and how

21:11

the team is coming across. And it

21:13

kind of, it did kickstart with the

21:15

Sophie Eccleston's refusal of the interview with

21:17

Alex Hartley after the second, after the

21:19

first T20 in Sydney, I think it

21:22

was. And it kind of, it gave

21:24

the impression of this culture of complacency,

21:26

a culture that enabled one of their

21:28

best players to act in that way.

21:30

and you know to refuse a media

21:33

duty and with very little consequence let's

21:35

be honest because as much as Claire

21:37

Connor admitted it was unfortunate it shouldn't

21:39

happen again and there wasn't much consequence

21:41

for the Soviets and she played every

21:44

other game on the tour and I

21:46

think you know Australia's culture for example

21:48

I know we're always comparing with Australia

21:50

it just would not allow that to

21:52

happen and that is something that if

21:55

it is Charlotte Edwards if it's someone

21:57

else is going to have to address

21:59

is you know the perception of complacency

22:01

the perception of coziness and having competition

22:03

for places from within the domestic game

22:06

will help with that as well because

22:08

you know you don't want players feeling

22:10

like their place and the team is

22:12

is guaranteed and perhaps some of these

22:14

changes you know the coach and the

22:17

captain moving aside will you know make

22:19

some players wake up and think okay

22:21

not everything is secure not everything is

22:23

cozy and it's going to take some

22:25

time and it's probably going to take

22:28

in good winning something, winning something meaningful

22:30

like an ashes like a World Cup,

22:32

for them to fully win, you know,

22:34

win the fans back around because Kate

22:36

Cross admitted herself, you know, they did

22:39

lose some fans during that tour with

22:41

how they came across and saying that

22:43

they were really close to Australia all

22:45

the time and we were kind of

22:47

thinking well which games are you watching

22:50

because it certainly doesn't look that close

22:52

to us. So yeah the messaging the

22:54

external messaging will certainly need to change

22:56

and I think those relations with the

22:58

fans and with the press as well

23:01

as going to be another you know

23:03

a big tick in that intray for

23:05

the new coach. Well they got some

23:07

tough games coming up they've got India

23:10

at home and they've got a World

23:12

Cup coming up in India and we

23:14

saw that they had real... trouble playing

23:16

against spin, notably Alana King, but also

23:18

likes of Ash Gardner and the other

23:21

spin options that Australia had. So they're

23:23

going to be thrown in the deep

23:25

end pretty quickly. We need to look

23:27

at the issue of captain and who

23:29

can be captain, because it is, as

23:32

you pointed out, such a rare moment,

23:34

you know, when you actually get a

23:36

New England women's captain. Now, I want

23:38

to start first by just saying, do

23:40

you envisage that the captain has to

23:43

be the captain? for all three formats.

23:45

It's a difficult one. It feels like,

23:47

you know, it's different to men's cricket,

23:49

isn't it, when you consider how rarely

23:51

women play test cricket. So that almost

23:54

has to kind of go on the

23:56

back burner a little bit, I think,

23:58

because England don't play a test much

24:00

this home summer. So they've kind of

24:02

got to park that for now and

24:05

focus on the whiteball formats because as

24:07

you said that 50 over World Cup

24:09

is coming at the end of the

24:11

summer. And that's, you know, that's got

24:13

to be the focus. Obviously, the whiteball

24:16

series in the summer as well will

24:18

be building towards that and the new

24:20

captain will be molding their team during

24:22

that. I think, yes, they realistically have

24:24

to play both whiteball formats because so

24:27

much of England's cricket is. you know

24:29

played in that and they'll need that

24:31

consistency. But then that brings in a

24:33

difficulty if you consider some senior players

24:35

the likes of Cape Cross and Tammy

24:38

Beaumont who have got captaincy experience in

24:40

domestic cricket which is something that the

24:42

team is really lacking. They don't play

24:44

both formats so you know could you

24:46

could possibly have let's say Tommy Beaumont

24:49

as a one-day captain and that's a

24:51

brunt as a T20 captain but I

24:53

think given the fragility of England's situation

24:55

at the moment and the fact that

24:57

they're going to need to build consistency,

25:00

I think they would like it to

25:02

be, yeah, a multi-format captain. Well if

25:04

it is a multi-format captain and given

25:06

the longevity of previous England captain, they

25:08

tend to start in the captaincy relatively

25:11

young, you look at how old, how

25:13

the night was when she began and

25:15

indeed Charlotte Edwards, so I just wonder

25:17

if... they'll be wary of a continuity

25:19

captain like that's of a brunt. You

25:22

know, Nazi brunt's most high profile moment

25:24

as a captain recently was taking over

25:26

when Heather Knight got injured and it

25:28

didn't go down all didn't go awfully

25:30

well at all did it in that

25:33

match against the West Indies. She doesn't

25:35

seem necessarily like a sort of natural

25:37

candidate to be captain. She got a

25:39

lot in her place based an awful

25:41

lot of cricket generally. Do you see

25:44

a case? for say somebody who's established

25:46

within the side but is young and

25:48

starting out their career. I'm thinking about

25:50

somebody like Charlie Dean for example who

25:52

could take this role on and then

25:55

grow into it or do you see

25:57

a sort of more an interim solution?

25:59

like a Natsiverbrunty, probably wouldn't be captain

26:01

for anything like the length of time

26:03

that Heather has been. Yeah, it's a

26:06

tricky one with Natsiverrun because England will

26:08

definitely need to be wary of her

26:10

workload. Bary in mind, you know, she

26:12

carries the batting line up. She's one

26:14

of the most experienced bowlers. She's also

26:17

bad to become a mom for the

26:19

first time, so she's going to have,

26:21

you know, a lot going on off

26:23

the field as well. struggled without Heather

26:25

Knight. She had to take a break

26:28

from the game after it, which is

26:30

nothing to be held against her whatsoever.

26:32

It's just something that England will need

26:34

to be wary of in terms of

26:37

adding more responsibility to her plate. She

26:39

may feel like having had that break

26:41

and having had that experience now, she

26:43

knows what it's expected of her, she

26:45

knows what it takes, and that she

26:48

can take that challenge on. And when

26:50

we spoke to her in Australia about

26:52

the subject, this was before Heather the

26:54

night had been removed from her job.

26:56

She did say that she was keen.

26:59

to take on the position if it

27:01

was available. So one option is yes,

27:03

give it to the Nazi of a

27:05

brunt for a year, get through the

27:07

World Cup, get you know some younger

27:10

players maybe getting experiencing captaincy and domestic

27:12

cricket and building up somebody like Charlie

27:14

Dean. But the problem with that is

27:16

then in 2026 and this is where

27:18

the schedule becomes. So manic, England are

27:21

hosting the T20 World Cup and that

27:23

is going to be a huge, huge

27:25

moment for the ECB in terms of

27:27

having an ICC event on world. on

27:29

home soil again, you know, following up

27:32

from 2017 where they had that momentous

27:34

victory at Lords. So if you were

27:36

going to give it to Charlie Dean

27:38

just before that, that would be an

27:40

enormous amount of pressure on her. Or

27:43

they could throw her in now with

27:45

the support of Hadhanite and with the

27:47

support of Natsiv a brunt behind her

27:49

through perhaps a little bit of a

27:51

quieter summer and then the World Cup

27:54

in India. build through it that way.

27:56

So there are options, but I think

27:58

this is a problem that England have

28:00

made because they have had nine years

28:02

to plan for the future and all

28:05

of a sudden they find themselves in

28:07

a position where they're thinking oh gosh

28:09

you know what what are the answers

28:11

and that lack of succession is coming

28:13

back to haunt them now and it's

28:16

you know as I said looking at

28:18

the schedule it's a really tricky time

28:20

for that to be happening. and you

28:22

don't imagine that there'll be any kind

28:24

of hail Mary. I've been looking on

28:27

social media, obviously on Blue Sky and

28:29

X, you know, people are going, oh

28:31

how about Holy Armitage, who's skipper up

28:33

at Durham and is very well thought

28:35

of as a fine cricketing brain, or

28:38

even the even bigger hail Mary of

28:40

forbidding the under-19 skipper Grace Scrivens. You

28:42

don't see anybody from outside the squad

28:44

coming in sort of doing a might-brilly

28:46

type role. I can't particularly see it.

28:49

Georgia Adams is another one in domestic

28:51

cricket who's a brilliant captain and you

28:53

know those three named are brilliant captains

28:55

and brilliant players in their own right

28:57

but I don't think England are in

29:00

a position where they can bring in

29:02

somebody to play as a captain you

29:04

know like a specialist captain of course

29:06

they can all contribute with the bad

29:08

but grace governs you know she hasn't

29:11

even been capped by England yet so

29:13

she... you know, probably needs a little

29:15

bit more time to grow and develop

29:17

into her own game and to learn

29:19

her game in domestic cricket. But I

29:22

can't see a situation where an outsider

29:24

comes in. No, I think it all,

29:26

you know, Nazivabran is the likely candidate

29:28

having been Heathernite's deputy for so long.

29:30

And then, yeah, the outside choice, you

29:33

would probably say would be Charlie Dean,

29:35

who has been, you know, touted as

29:37

a future England captain for the past

29:39

years of her career, really. We've got

29:41

a restructuring of the women's game, domestic

29:44

game, tier one counties making their bow

29:46

this year. Is it going to be

29:48

the case, and please tell me it

29:50

is, that England internationals are going to

29:53

be expected to turn out where possible

29:55

for their counties? Because it seems to

29:57

me that this is a really good

29:59

opportunity to show whether this new system

30:01

is going to work and really to

30:04

develop the talent in the domestic... scene

30:06

that's going to create the competition for

30:08

places that I know you've been talking

30:10

about a lot a lot of people

30:12

have been as well that what England

30:15

doesn't have that Australia does have is

30:17

that competition for places and it's sort

30:19

of got to happen at domestic level

30:21

doesn't it? Yeah absolutely and going back

30:23

to the point around the likes of

30:26

Hollywood and George Adams who have been

30:28

in the domestic game for so long

30:30

and scored so many runs they know

30:32

their game they are so experienced but

30:34

England have have been very reluctant over

30:37

the years actually to pick players from

30:39

the domestic pathway, you know, they've picked

30:41

mostly young players based on potential, let's

30:43

think of somebody like Amaya Boucher, her

30:45

first century came in international cricket, she

30:48

hadn't scored a century in domestic cricket,

30:50

compared that to somebody like Georgia Vol,

30:52

who's just come into the Australia team,

30:54

who is established in the domestic setup,

30:56

has a huge amount of runs in

30:59

state cricket and in the WBB, behind

31:01

her. and low and behold she seems

31:03

to find international cricket really really easy.

31:05

So I think in the way for

31:07

England if they don't trust their domestic

31:10

system if they don't think that that

31:12

is equipping their players for international cricket

31:14

enough well their international players need to

31:16

play it when they can because that

31:18

will drive up the standards that will

31:21

drive up the competition. the England recalled

31:23

Sophia Dunkley after scoring loads of runs

31:25

in domestic cricket at the beginning of

31:27

last season and so it does show

31:29

that you know you can do it

31:32

and it can be done and it

31:34

can be trusted because fear Dunkley also

31:36

then made a big impact on the

31:38

ashes series when she did come in

31:40

and you know scored some some important

31:43

runs when England were you know in

31:45

really tricky situations. So yeah I do

31:47

think that they need to play and

31:49

they've got time as well England's first

31:51

match of this international summerism until the

31:54

21st of May 21st of May. So

31:56

there are no excuses really for them

31:58

to be going into this international summer

32:00

undercooked. They don't play much 50 over

32:02

cricket. We saw how they really really

32:05

struggled in those ODIs against Australia at

32:07

the beginning of the year. So it's

32:09

a perfect opportunity for some. the younger

32:11

players to find their feet in that

32:13

format and learn how the tempo of

32:16

that format works a little bit better

32:18

with the World Cup coming up at

32:20

the end of the summer. So yeah

32:22

that should definitely now be trusted and

32:24

it should absolutely be the platform from

32:27

which England kick-on and they can finally

32:29

start to make in roads and start

32:31

to compete with the setup that Australia

32:33

have got. Well, undeniably, challenging times, but

32:35

challenging times often, very, very interesting times.

32:38

Thanks to Fion Win and to Lydia

32:40

Greenway for joining me. Make sure you're

32:42

subscribed to the Testmat Special Podcast on

32:44

BBC Sounds. We will bring you news

32:46

of when that new captain or head

32:49

coach is appointed. You can hear IPL

32:51

commentary via BBC Sounds as well as

32:53

the BBC Sport website and app. On

32:55

Monday, Daddy Capital's take on Lucknow Super

32:57

Giants, which you can hear at 1.55

33:00

PMpm and then at the same time

33:02

on Tuesday. throughout Titan's face Punjab kings.

33:04

But for now, from me, Daniel Norcross,

33:06

it's goodbye. It's the scandal that rocked

33:09

rugby union to its core. The so-called

33:11

bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention.

33:13

It seems so clear that this wasn't

33:15

real blood. It's out and out cheating.

33:17

This is a story of lies and

33:20

deception. conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror

33:22

that it could tear the house down.

33:24

Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously

33:26

a lie. And a human cost that

33:28

changed lives and careers forever. D. Richards

33:31

is found guilty and banned for three

33:33

years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is

33:35

Sports Strangers Crimes Bloodgate. Listen on BBC

33:37

Sounds. Welcome to the Inside Track

33:39

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