0:06

You've had a dynamic where money

0:09

has become freer than free. If

0:11

you talk about a Fed just gone

0:13

nuts, all the central banks going nuts.

0:15

So it's all acting like safe haven.

0:17

I believe that in a world

0:19

where central bankers are tripping over

0:21

themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin

0:24

wins. In the world of fiat

0:26

currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I

0:28

mean, that's part of the bull case

0:30

for Bitcoin. If you're not paying

0:32

attention, you probably should be. Yeah,

0:36

this has been a been a

0:38

subject on the show probably

0:40

like four or five episodes

0:43

in the last three months

0:45

is generational wealth and

0:47

talking about philosophy history

0:50

had Will Tanner on

0:52

who's really obsessed with

0:54

The landed gentry in

0:56

England in the I guess

0:58

the 1500s true the early 21st

1:01

century and this whole idea

1:03

of how maybe not ancient

1:05

families acquired and

1:07

then handed down wealth throughout

1:09

time. And you're the perfect

1:11

person to speak with. We're

1:14

sitting with Matthew McClintock from

1:16

B. Spoke to talk about

1:18

how to manage wealth as

1:20

a Bitcoin. This is something

1:22

that you deal with every

1:24

day and that you specialize

1:27

in. I think your book

1:29

of clients that have built

1:31

their wealth via Bitcoin. speaks

1:33

for itself and you're very

1:35

near and dear to the

1:37

subject of not only wealth

1:39

management preservation

1:42

potentially growth but

1:44

passing that down via what

1:47

you guys offer a bespoke

1:49

yeah I mean that's really

1:51

that's really the essence

1:53

of it I mean we um you know

1:56

my I moved into the

1:58

bespoke in this world the

2:00

lens of long-term estate planning. And

2:02

so my career has really always

2:04

been focused on helping families

2:06

create not just the right entities

2:09

or the right structures and match up

2:11

the right jurisdictions, but really

2:13

think through the decision-making process,

2:15

the governance frameworks that

2:18

are necessary to manage

2:20

significant wealth across multiple generations.

2:22

And just so happens that

2:24

in 2017, I started applying

2:26

that in 2017, I started

2:29

applying that expertise

2:31

to Bitcoin. And yeah, it's

2:33

just, as you and I have talked

2:35

about this previously, I think

2:38

to a certain degree, but

2:40

Bitcoiners have a very

2:42

long time horizon. We have

2:44

a tendency to view life

2:47

in terms of decades, maybe

2:49

even centuries, and kind of

2:51

across generations because of the

2:53

nature of the asset that

2:56

we value so much. And

2:58

a lot of what we

3:00

focus on is in helping

3:02

families really take that from

3:04

conceptual value, like something that they

3:07

hold dear, and actually make it

3:09

something that they can implement.

3:11

And this idea of the

3:13

landage entry is interesting

3:16

because as we saw in the

3:18

evolution of English common law,

3:20

because the crown didn't like

3:22

landage entry to be able

3:24

to continue to amass wealth wealth.

3:27

and then passed that wealth

3:29

across generations to their heirs,

3:31

the crown wanted a piece

3:33

of the action. And so

3:35

they enacted laws like the

3:37

statute of Elizabeth, which prohibited

3:39

you from securing assets in

3:41

a trust that was for

3:44

your benefit, but was

3:46

shielded from outside claims.

3:48

And so that and

3:50

the rule against perpetuities,

3:52

the rule against perpetual

3:54

trusts. which said that

3:56

at some point trust

3:58

structure especially ones

4:01

that hold land, must empty out

4:03

every so often so that the

4:05

crown can have a piece of

4:07

the properties that were held inside

4:09

that trust. And so whether it's

4:11

through the land of gentry, whether

4:13

it's through things like the federal

4:15

gift and estate tax that we

4:17

have now, the income tax, the

4:20

capital gains tax, whether it's the

4:22

monarch or whether it's the crown

4:24

of the treasury, government always wants

4:26

a piece of it's a... what

4:28

they think is their share of

4:31

somebody's wealth. Yeah, that was

4:33

a fascinating thing. During

4:35

that conversation, Will, we dove

4:37

into a paper that essentially

4:39

described that this leakage of

4:42

wealth they described because of

4:44

the crown stepping in, but

4:46

it really accelerated in the

4:48

20th century when taxes

4:50

became burdensome and you

4:53

had. much of the multi multi-generation

4:55

landed gentry families essentially end

4:57

up with with no wealth

4:59

at all by by the

5:02

Vietnam War and it was

5:04

because of taxes particularly

5:06

and I think That's why

5:08

I love talking to you as

5:10

it pertains to Bitcoiners thinking about

5:13

what they hold the value that

5:15

it sits at now and the

5:17

potential value that it could sit

5:19

at at some point in the

5:22

future that we're all pretty confident

5:24

that it will be at is

5:26

if you have a sizable stack

5:28

you need to begin planning on

5:30

how to protect that and prevent

5:32

that that wealth drainage that the

5:35

state introduces via

5:37

taxation. Yeah that's right it's

5:39

um I've been on this kick lately

5:41

about you know looking at what

5:43

ancient, some of what the ancient fathers

5:45

said about wealth. I've been kind of on

5:47

a deep stoicism kick, kind of re, kind

5:50

of going back down that path that

5:52

I started many years ago, but

5:54

Seneca has some interesting perspectives on

5:56

wealth, but then also kind of

5:58

looking into the guild. age of

6:00

the United States and what the

6:02

DuPont family did early on, how

6:05

the Vanderbilt Fortune was

6:07

built and lost, how

6:09

Andrew Carnegie perceived wealth.

6:11

And it's really interesting

6:13

because the Vanderbilt generation,

6:16

the Vanderbilt dynasty,

6:18

if you will, was very famously

6:20

built and almost completely

6:22

lost inside of a

6:24

century. From the time,

6:27

Cornelia's Vanderbilt. made his millions,

6:29

first in the steam industry,

6:31

and then he amplified that

6:34

through the rail industry, passed that

6:36

on to his son, mainly to

6:38

one of his sons. He had

6:40

13 kids. Ten of him lived

6:42

to adulthood. He gave all of

6:44

that wealth to one kid. And

6:46

then that kid doubled the family

6:49

empire in nine years. And then

6:51

when that kid died, he split

6:53

it 50-50 among his kids. And

6:55

then from that point forward, it

6:57

just got pissed away, pissed away,

6:59

pissed away over time through extravagant

7:02

spending, building all of Newport,

7:05

Rhode Island, all up and down

7:07

Fifth Avenue in New York, Asheville,

7:09

you know, to build more, just

7:11

spending all this money, becoming

7:13

the landage entry of the

7:15

20th century in the United

7:17

States. Enter the income tax

7:19

and enter the gift and estate tax,

7:21

and now you end up with... a

7:24

lot of highly valuable illiquid

7:27

property that has a

7:29

significant carrying cost to

7:31

maintain and then before long

7:34

all of the family buildings

7:36

on Fifth Avenue or bulldozed

7:38

The built more is donated

7:41

to a public trust in

7:43

order to be to become basically

7:45

a nonprofit type of

7:48

entity and the family has

7:50

nothing left of the hundreds

7:52

of dollars that the Commodore

7:54

had built during the course

7:56

of his lifetime. I think to a

7:58

certain degree the same... possibility can

8:01

become true with Bitcoin

8:03

because although Bitcoin doesn't

8:05

necessarily have significant

8:08

carrying costs in economic

8:10

terms, we know it's not income

8:12

producing in its own right. The

8:14

kind of financial chicanery

8:17

that can take place trying

8:19

to generate Alpha on Bitcoin,

8:21

we've seen how that has

8:23

not ended well for a

8:25

lot of people in the

8:27

past. either becoming forced sellers

8:29

or losing to custodial counterparty

8:31

risk or whatever, or being

8:33

forced liquidation of an asset that's

8:35

got massive capital gains tax

8:37

liabilities, losing the underlying, but

8:39

also carries with it the

8:42

carrying cost of just the

8:44

stress, the technology burden of

8:46

maintaining private key security and

8:48

being able to cascade that

8:50

security over time. And so

8:52

then, you know, helping Bitcoiners

8:54

really think through How do

8:57

you apply generational thinking to

8:59

an asset that is highly liquid

9:01

in technical terms, practically

9:03

illiquid very often in

9:06

capital gains tax perspectives, otherwise

9:08

doesn't generate income in its

9:10

own right, but is this

9:12

asset that they want to

9:15

ultimately pass down for multiple

9:17

generations? And it just

9:19

requires a lot of complex

9:21

thinking and it requires a lot

9:23

of I think second order thinking.

9:26

in order to put the

9:28

right structures in place. Yeah, and

9:30

not only that, but I think

9:32

really moving with the times that

9:35

we're talking about before we

9:37

hit record, like this new

9:39

CTA, the Corporate Transparency Act,

9:42

that we talked about the

9:44

last time. We were together on

9:46

a podcast and on the Last

9:49

Trade Podcast. You got to...

9:51

be aware of this, these

9:53

moving variables that are

9:55

being introduced and taken

9:57

away from time to time and

9:59

just... literally be active with

10:02

how you're protecting your wealth and

10:04

trying to become sovereign. I mean,

10:06

that's why many Bitcoiners

10:08

get into Bitcoin. In the first

10:10

place, they recognize that is this

10:12

neutral sovereign asset that gives them

10:15

full control over their wealth and

10:17

then they begin applying that to

10:19

other aspects of their life and

10:21

finally enough that ties in with

10:23

wealth creation and preservation. Like how

10:25

do you? how do you build

10:27

your wealth and then make sure

10:29

it's somewhat sovereign as you're living

10:31

within this this political apparatus

10:33

particularly here in the United

10:36

States? Yeah I think the sovereignty issue

10:38

is really it's it's complicated I think

10:40

it's and I think it means

10:42

different things in different people but

10:44

I also think it it evolves over

10:46

time to different people but I also

10:48

think it it evolves over time to a

10:51

certain people but I also think it

10:53

it evolves over time to a certain degree

10:55

as well and The way I think

10:57

about sovereignty, you know, there's, it's

10:59

one thing to be able to

11:01

maintain total key sovereignty over

11:03

your Bitcoin wealth. And it's, as

11:06

you and I've talked about previously,

11:08

that's one of the first things

11:10

that was pounded into my head

11:13

as I was listening to

11:15

the luminaries like Andreas

11:17

Antonopoulos and other people early

11:19

in the space. But if we rewind

11:21

the clock a bit on the

11:23

block clock that I see

11:25

there. Bitcoin hasn't always traded

11:28

it in 96,300 dollars. Bitcoin

11:30

used to trade it, you

11:32

know, tens of dollars, or

11:34

maybe hundreds of dollars, at which

11:36

point, having unilateral control

11:39

over key material is

11:41

economically not that big of

11:44

a deal, because, you know,

11:46

it is like a digital

11:48

approximation of cash when it's at those

11:50

levels. design because of

11:52

its algorithm and because of

11:55

its network effect and because

11:57

of the erosion of the US

11:59

dollar. We've got this massive

12:02

delta that's opened up

12:04

between the price of

12:06

a Bitcoin and the value

12:09

of a dollar. And so now

12:11

what might have been a

12:13

stack worth $5,000, $10,000,

12:15

even $25,000 back in 2015,

12:18

2013, whatever, that could

12:20

now be worth millions

12:22

of dollars or maybe

12:24

many millions of dollars.

12:27

And so the sovereignty.

12:29

aspect can become a point

12:31

of, it can become a threat

12:33

vector as well. And so a lot

12:35

of what we try to help

12:38

clients think about is, okay, to

12:40

what degree does sovereignty

12:42

mean unilateral key control?

12:45

And does it mean, can it

12:47

also possibly mean maintaining

12:49

privacy when you want to go

12:52

obtain properties because you

12:54

want to liquidate some of

12:56

your Bitcoin positions? that could

12:59

also mean mitigating

13:01

the 40% estate or gift tax

13:03

erosion that will happen

13:05

because of the value of your

13:08

wealth. Could it mean the

13:10

35 to 40ish percent erosion

13:12

from a capital gains tax

13:14

perspective between state and federal

13:16

if you don't have to

13:19

be fortunate to live in

13:21

Texas to be able to

13:23

pay a few lower capital

13:25

gains tax tax tax tax.

13:28

And so I think the sovereignty

13:30

conversation is not

13:32

binary. I think the, I

13:34

think the sovereignty conversation

13:36

is nuanced and is a bit

13:38

of a spectrum conversation.

13:41

One of the things that I think

13:43

I'm at least noodling right now,

13:45

I don't really have a

13:47

clear answer for it yet, is

13:50

how does an individual's

13:52

sovereignty? kind

13:55

of interface with or

13:58

maybe frustrate their air.

14:00

potential future sovereignty.

14:02

So if I die with my

14:04

key material, and maybe I've

14:06

even figured out a dead man

14:09

switch or some type of code

14:11

that I have confidence

14:13

in that will successfully

14:15

transfer my Bitcoin

14:17

to the people I care about, are

14:19

they set up for sovereignty

14:22

as well? Or will they? Or am

14:24

I creating some type of

14:26

manacle of restraint for

14:28

them? by maintaining

14:30

too much sovereignty on

14:32

my own. I don't know. I mean,

14:35

I think again, it's the

14:37

sovereignty, the sovereignty point

14:39

I think is sometimes

14:42

either overwrought or

14:44

perhaps underthought, because

14:46

there's a lot that goes

14:49

into, I think, structuring

14:51

for sovereignty. Yeah, I

14:53

think inheritance protocols, like

14:56

how do you pass

14:58

down keys? the person who

15:00

generated the wealth ultimately passes

15:02

and then you have this

15:04

ceremony and she's either pass

15:06

the keys that already exist

15:09

that's actually a question

15:11

a good question ask you is

15:13

like what happens at that moment

15:15

you have to pass keys that

15:18

already exist and give control

15:20

to the beneficiaries of your

15:22

will your trust whatever

15:24

it may be or is there does

15:26

that Bitcoin need to be moved into

15:29

a new wallet, a new setup

15:31

controlled by whoever is inheriting

15:33

that wealth. I would think

15:35

about that from a couple

15:37

of different perspectives. I mean,

15:39

there's no technical reason why

15:42

you couldn't just pass the

15:44

key material and the Bitcoin

15:46

never even moves. As now

15:48

the inheritors receive the keys

15:50

to control the Bitcoin on

15:52

that address, that can

15:54

certainly happen. And there's

15:56

nothing inherently. flawed with

15:59

that structure. from a

16:01

practical matter, you've got

16:03

the tax issues to deal

16:05

with on this. And unless

16:07

and until such time as

16:09

Bitcoin is not subject to

16:12

tax at any level, transfer

16:15

tax or income tax, marking

16:17

the transfer of ownership

16:19

is really, really important

16:22

for both the estate

16:24

of the dead person and

16:26

for the recipient who

16:28

inherits the Bitcoin. And

16:30

here's the point here. Again,

16:32

under the current law, the total

16:35

value of your holdings,

16:37

whether it's Bitcoin or real

16:39

estate or Fiat or whatever

16:41

it is, the entire value

16:43

of your holdings will be

16:45

considered to be in your

16:48

gross estate from a estate

16:50

tax perspective, subject to

16:52

your then available estate

16:54

tax exemption. And you might

16:57

if you live in, you know,

16:59

one of maybe a dozen or

17:01

more states, you might have a state

17:03

level estate tax as well

17:06

as federal. And so to the

17:08

extent your wealth is over

17:10

that amount, there could very

17:12

well be estate tax due. And

17:14

the rate in the United States

17:17

right now is 40 cents

17:19

on the dollar above your

17:21

federal exemption amount would be

17:23

due to Uncle Sam. If you

17:26

live in a place like Massachusetts, you

17:28

might also have like a

17:30

16% state level exemption. Excuse

17:33

me, a 16% state tax above

17:35

the $2 million state exemption.

17:37

So there's a lot of factors

17:39

that go into this. So there's

17:42

the question of whether or not

17:44

the assets are properly disclosed and

17:46

appropriate tax paid on those. Now,

17:48

if we want to get cute

17:50

and say, well, we're just not going

17:53

to pay the tax because who's going

17:55

to know? the beneficiaries who receive

17:57

that Bitcoin at some point in the

18:00

future. they're going to have to

18:02

be able to substantiate how they

18:04

came about having that Bitcoin and

18:06

if they failed to disclose that

18:08

on a gift on a estate

18:11

tax return then they will

18:13

not only have penalties and interest

18:15

that relate back to the date

18:17

of death if they knowingly failed

18:20

to disclose they also

18:22

will have criminal liability

18:24

for tax fraud and so That's

18:26

just the, you know, I'm kind

18:28

of the wet blank in the

18:30

room, but that's just the way

18:32

the law works. And from a

18:35

capital gains tax perspective,

18:37

the beneficiary would like

18:40

to be able to demonstrate

18:42

that they received that because

18:45

somebody died, not because

18:47

somebody gave that to them

18:49

during their lifetime or in

18:51

some type of trust structure.

18:54

Their basis for a

18:56

capital gains tax perspective

18:58

is the same as my basis

19:01

was. So if I had mined

19:03

that Bitcoin or if I bought $10

19:05

Bitcoin, then I just gave that

19:07

to somebody else. Well, their basis

19:10

is $10 on that Bitcoin,

19:12

even if I whole coined them

19:14

just out of the goodness of

19:16

my heart, and it's like a

19:19

$97,000 gift. their basis

19:21

would be my cost of acquisition

19:23

because it was a transfer during

19:25

my lifetime. If on the other

19:28

hand I die and then the

19:30

beneficiary can substantiate that

19:32

they only received that

19:34

because it was included in

19:36

my estate, now they get a basis

19:39

reset or a step up in basis

19:41

to the fair market value

19:43

at my date of death. So if

19:45

they get $97,000 Bitcoin. through my

19:47

estate, well guess what? Their basis

19:50

is $97,000. So they were to

19:52

later sell. They would have capital

19:54

gains tax based off of that

19:57

$97,000 basis instead of the $10

19:59

basis. So you kind of have

20:01

these competing objectives, depending

20:04

on if you're the hodler

20:06

who's planning from a wealth

20:09

structuring perspective, or if you're

20:11

the beneficiary on the receiving

20:13

end of that gift, there are

20:16

kind of cross priorities here

20:18

that need to be navigated.

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22:26

just that. The reality is

22:28

that the same normy land

22:30

laws that apply to traditional

22:33

assets also apply to Bitcoin

22:35

and That's again. That's

22:37

sometimes that's how the cold

22:39

harsh reality comes crashing upon

22:41

the rocks of sovereignty. You

22:43

know, it's like The crown

22:45

still wants its pound of flesh.

22:47

Yeah. Well, that's why I feel

22:49

like we're about to have another

22:52

another bucket of cold water thrown

22:54

on us because as I'm sure

22:56

you're aware with Trump taking helm

22:58

of the White House again moving

23:01

fast. We're barely a month into not

23:03

even a month into him putting

23:05

his hand on the Bible and

23:07

getting inaugurated. Notably he didn't put

23:10

his hand on the Bible. He

23:12

did it? Maloney held it but

23:14

he didn't touch it. Oh, interesting.

23:16

Well, yeah. Watch the video. Being

23:18

inaugurated in the person in the

23:20

vicinity of a Bible. He was

23:23

proximate to a Bible. a lot

23:25

of a lot of talk about

23:27

tariffs. He's been publicly posturing

23:29

and lead up to the election

23:32

and post election terrorists my favorite

23:34

word we're gonna throw tariffs on

23:36

the world and hopefully eliminate the

23:39

income tax and really hearkening back

23:41

to the gilded age here in

23:43

the United States when that's what

23:46

the tax structure was was heavy

23:48

tariffs no income tax. You have

23:50

Elon Musk his his new right-hand

23:52

man who's publicly vocalized

23:55

his disgust with the

23:57

estate tax specifically.

24:00

Do you think there's any

24:02

possibility in this four years they

24:04

try to make moves to eliminate

24:06

the income tax and reduce

24:08

if not eliminate the estate tax

24:11

as well and even if they

24:13

were to do that what is

24:15

the likelihood that that tax structure

24:17

remains intact after this administration? Yeah

24:20

great question. I will tell you

24:22

that I think the highest probability

24:24

is we'll get an extension

24:26

of the 2017 tax act.

24:28

I mean, I think that is

24:31

the highest probability. And I think,

24:33

I mean, it has to happen. If

24:35

it does happen, it's going to

24:37

have to happen this year because

24:40

the 2017 Tax Act expires at

24:42

the end of this year. So

24:44

that means that we go back

24:46

to the pre-2017 tax regime.

24:48

There's just no way

24:50

that a Republican-controlled Congress

24:52

and the White House

24:54

will allow the 2017 Tax

24:57

Act to expire. So I

24:59

think at a minimum, we

25:01

get an extension, which means

25:04

at a minimum, the estate

25:06

tax exemptions remain at $10

25:09

million per taxpayer plus

25:11

indexing for inflation.

25:13

So it's 13.995 million

25:16

per taxpayer this year.

25:18

I suspect that's going

25:20

to continue and continue

25:23

to graduate up at a

25:25

minimum. Depending on, just

25:27

I think depending on lots

25:30

of factors, I think there's

25:32

a non-zero chance we get a

25:34

completely reimagined tax code,

25:37

whether that means following the

25:39

Czech Republic's model, like

25:41

you and I were talking about

25:43

before this, of suspending recognition

25:45

of gain for Bitcoin that

25:48

was held over a three-year

25:50

period of time. Maybe we

25:52

see something like that. Some

25:54

type of relief around. Capital

25:58

Gaines tax either for crypto

26:00

or just generally maybe

26:03

maybe a reduction

26:05

in the income tax,

26:07

maybe a flat tax,

26:09

but whatever happens will

26:11

be temporary. It will

26:13

be temporary because unless

26:15

a tax bill passes

26:17

with a 60% majority,

26:19

a 60 vote in the

26:21

Senate, which the Republicans

26:23

don't have 60 votes

26:26

in the Senate. If the tax

26:28

bill does not pass with

26:30

60 votes, it must pay

26:32

for itself within a 10-year

26:34

window as calculated by the

26:37

Congressional Budget Office. That's the

26:39

upshot of the Byrd Amendment.

26:41

So that's why every tax

26:43

law, since I can recall, has

26:46

a built-in expiration date.

26:48

So whatever tax law we

26:50

get, it will be temporary

26:52

and will probably last no

26:54

longer than nine years. What

26:58

KPI's do they have to hit if they

27:00

don't get 60 typically what is a

27:02

CBO typically throughout there? Well, it's it's

27:04

got to pay for it's got to

27:07

pay for itself in Commence or you

27:09

got to have enough revenue that

27:11

they can map out To pay for the

27:13

revenue reduction from the from

27:15

the tax cuts. And so there's

27:18

this whole convoluted formula that

27:20

some things are taking into

27:22

consideration other things aren't Tariffs,

27:25

notably, are not part of

27:27

the equation. So tariffs aren't

27:30

counted as tax revenue. So

27:32

any revenue that the United

27:34

States gets through tariffs would

27:37

not count towards the computation

27:39

as to whether or not

27:42

a tax bill will pay

27:44

for itself. So I think unless

27:46

you can get 60 votes, you're

27:48

looking at, you know, another

27:50

decade of trying to figure out

27:53

how these things work. It's

27:56

been fascinating watching those go

27:58

in there and it'll be try

28:00

to figure out how our money

28:02

is being spent and where it's

28:05

being wasted and publicly stating all

28:07

right here's what they're spending your

28:09

money on we're gonna cut this

28:12

we're to cut that and as

28:14

we all know that's all well and

28:16

good and I think moral just and

28:18

something that we should be doing is

28:21

he still have this overwhelming

28:23

overarching boogie man in the

28:25

spending discussion which is defense

28:27

Medicaid. Medicare Social Security, third

28:29

rails, that are rarely touched.

28:32

Actually, I think if you're

28:34

going to touch one of

28:36

those rails, maybe defense. I

28:38

think the coalition of supporters

28:40

behind Trump, particularly from Silicon

28:42

Valley, tech scene, investment scene

28:44

specifically, they have placed a

28:46

lot of chips on these

28:48

startup defense tech firms, which

28:50

are marketing themselves as companies

28:52

that could. produce what the

28:54

military industrial complex does on

28:57

an $100 billion budget with

28:59

10% of that budget and

29:01

they're arguing they can do

29:03

it quicker more efficiently and

29:06

most importantly cheaper. So

29:08

maybe we get some spending

29:10

cuts there. But the overarching

29:12

point of this this ramble

29:14

that I'm on right now

29:16

is that the crux of

29:18

all these tax policies. that

29:20

have amassed over the last

29:22

112 years, 112 years since

29:24

the income tax was introduced,

29:26

they stem from welfare programs

29:29

essentially where they're necessitated by the

29:31

fact that we have created

29:33

this fiat monetary system Frankenstein

29:35

that dictates that you need

29:38

to give handouts because the

29:40

money's broken. And that's one

29:42

thing I hope Bitcoin does. It

29:44

is assert itself as a

29:47

reserve asset at first and

29:49

then hopefully a global reserve

29:51

currency and it just sort

29:54

of naturally solves a lot

29:56

of these spending issues that

29:59

that evolves. from the fact

30:01

that we messed up the money

30:03

and just we operate on

30:05

this debt-based system. And

30:08

hopefully, once we get back

30:10

on sound money, we can have

30:12

more sensible tax policy, which

30:14

in my mind is very

30:17

low. Yeah, low probability. Yeah,

30:19

I think, what I think about

30:21

that is you look at the

30:24

primary recipients of the

30:26

third rail of spending.

30:28

And that's the largest voting

30:31

block, or at least historically,

30:33

the largest voting block in

30:35

the US. And that's senior

30:37

citizens. Granted, the millennial

30:40

generation just flipped them

30:42

in this latest election

30:44

as the larger voting

30:46

block. But you're still

30:48

dealing with a very

30:50

large, very noisy voting

30:52

block that relies extensively

30:54

on Medicare Social Security.

30:56

And have these. kind of

30:59

Halcyon days, kind of reminiscences of

31:01

a great military in the traditional

31:03

analog sense. And so I think

31:05

it would be a, it would

31:07

be an uphill slog to really touch

31:09

those third rails and do something

31:11

meaningful about them, unless and

31:13

until the baby boomer generation is

31:16

materially irrelevant. Now I could be,

31:18

I could be mistaken about that.

31:20

I could be mistaken about that.

31:22

I could be mistaken about that.

31:24

I just, I think that that is,

31:27

I think that that is, worth considering.

31:29

You know, I think ever since

31:31

we got off of the gold

31:33

standard fully in 1971, we've

31:35

been just drunk on the

31:38

euphoria of being able to

31:40

play these monetary games with

31:42

the truly fiat system. That

31:45

is addictive, not just for

31:47

government, but for the

31:49

people that rely on that

31:51

government, thus the subsidies, thus

31:54

the handouts. And now if

31:56

you're talking about taking all

31:58

these subsidies away, whether... it's

32:00

health subsidies, farm subsidies,

32:02

social security subsidies, away

32:05

from people, even staunchly

32:07

conservative people. I think

32:09

again, that's gonna be a

32:12

very difficult political argument

32:14

to sustain because it's like

32:16

it's all well and good. You know,

32:18

Marty, I will take money away from

32:21

you all day long. But once

32:23

somebody starts taking money

32:25

away from me, wait a second. Now

32:27

you've got me upset. So I

32:29

think we're going to see something similar

32:31

when we already are seeing this to

32:33

a certain degree when we see the

32:36

cuts proposed they're impacting red states. Now

32:38

all of a sudden those centers are

32:40

saying, oh, wait a second, wait a

32:42

second. You can't take the funding from

32:44

this program in my state because all

32:46

these farmers or whatever it is are

32:48

so reliant on those subsidies you can't

32:50

take that away. It's like it's all

32:52

well and good until your ox is

32:54

the one getting gored and then you'll

32:57

often kind of turn. We're still in

32:59

the very early days of this, but

33:01

I think it's going to be, I

33:03

think Trump has a much more

33:05

difficult task than the first four

33:08

weeks of effort suggests he

33:10

will have. Yeah, that's the term that's

33:12

been thrown around a lot in the

33:14

first month of his presidency

33:17

is he's inheriting a

33:19

Gordian knot and you can't untangle

33:21

a Gordian knot. You sort of, you

33:23

have to cut it in half and.

33:25

unless you're willing to do that. And

33:28

it seems like he may be, maybe

33:30

willing to. Elon Musk certainly have the

33:32

will to do that. And so far

33:34

they've got a, they've got a

33:36

Congress that's going along with them

33:39

and the Congress is acquiescing to

33:41

pretty strong executive powers

33:43

right now. We'll see how long that

33:45

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unchained.com slash TfTC. Yeah, that was the

34:48

big, I don't know if you wrote a law

34:50

or an executive order, but it was like any.

34:52

Any individual working below the executive

34:55

branch you can be fired immediately

34:57

if you're not if you're not

34:59

following the the directions of the

35:01

executive Which is great. I mean

35:03

it's it's created a lot of

35:06

controversy I mean mainstream media and

35:08

obviously the left side of the aisle Has

35:10

their their arms up in the air overall

35:12

this but it is hilarious just

35:14

observing as an outside. I'm not

35:16

an American, but trying to be

35:18

an objective outside observer of what's

35:20

happening. It's like this is We're

35:22

supposed to have a constitutional republic

35:24

and this is I think we've

35:26

strayed so far away from the

35:28

purpose and the intent of each

35:31

branch of government. This is like

35:33

the executive is supposed to

35:35

be the executive of the

35:37

executive branch shouting out orders

35:39

and everybody's supposed to listen to

35:42

that but over the course of

35:44

many decades this bureaucratic layers built

35:46

up and it got hubristic

35:48

enough to think that it didn't need

35:50

to. operate in the way that was set

35:53

forth in the constitution with the division of

35:55

powers? Yeah, I mean the way the way

35:57

I was taught it in my social

35:59

studies class in grade school

36:01

was three co-equal branches, you

36:04

know, the legislative

36:06

branch being Congress, in

36:08

acts to law, executive

36:10

branch carries out to law,

36:12

and the justice, the judicial

36:15

branch, interprets the law. And

36:17

what we've seen through, and

36:19

we're seeing this now, what

36:21

Trump is doing into us,

36:24

I mean, he's, what he's

36:26

doing fundamentally is not. necessarily

36:28

that new. I mean this idea of

36:30

legislation by either executive branch

36:32

rulemaking as we've seen through Treasury

36:35

Department and other departments, especially

36:37

which led to the Chevron

36:39

doctrine, either legislation through executive

36:41

branch rulemaking or legislation through

36:44

executive orders or legislation

36:46

declarations declarations of declarations

36:48

declarations declarations of declarations

36:51

declarations of declarations declarations

36:53

of declarations declarations of

36:55

declarations declarations of but

36:58

presidents have, for generations

37:00

now, have effectively declared war

37:02

without Congress's action. And so

37:05

Trump is just, I think,

37:07

leveraging the momentum of a

37:09

very strong executive branch. But

37:12

he's doing it to a level that

37:14

I don't think we've seen before

37:16

in this country. And I think

37:18

that one of the, one of the perspectives

37:21

I have, having, you know, been

37:23

on this planet here in the

37:25

United States for now over five

37:27

decades, It's like this will not

37:29

always be. And so the

37:31

norms, the norms that

37:34

are being reestablished right

37:36

now will someday be

37:38

the norms that govern the

37:40

other side of the aisle. And

37:43

so to the extent of the

37:45

Trump and especially

37:47

the magga branch of

37:50

the Republican Party

37:52

with the power that they

37:54

have in Congress. They're having

37:56

their heyday right now, and that's it

37:58

feels really great for them right now,

38:00

but we could be as short

38:02

as four years away from

38:05

a complete 180 degree reversal.

38:07

And if a far progressive

38:10

Democrat president

38:12

with a progressive backed

38:15

Democrat Congress has the

38:17

same norms now that the

38:19

Trump administration is

38:22

exploiting currently,

38:24

we're just going to be whipsawed.

38:26

back and forth. So I would I

38:28

would I would caution people who are

38:30

maybe conservative leaning but

38:32

maybe to a certain degree

38:35

magga agnostic or libertarian minded

38:37

like I certainly am. It's like

38:39

you know we might want to

38:41

temper our enthusiasm to a certain degree

38:44

because there is a cyclicality

38:46

to our politics and the

38:48

norms that have built up

38:50

over time are designed to

38:52

create constraints and guardrails that

38:54

should govern whoever whoever is in

38:56

power. So if to the extent Trump

38:58

and Musk burn down the house, better

39:00

be careful what we get on the

39:03

other side of that. No, this is

39:05

something that was very predictable

39:07

and really was Obama who

39:09

opened up this Pandora box

39:11

with the normalization of executive orders,

39:13

I believe it a second term.

39:15

And people were saying back then,

39:17

like, all right, you're going to

39:19

do it, it's going to be

39:21

abused, and we've just seen this

39:23

low upward acceleration of... The abuse

39:25

of the executive order, I said

39:28

this on a show a couple

39:30

weeks ago, like it is exactly

39:32

what you said, it's going to

39:34

come back, imagine when President AOC

39:36

takes the helm of executive orders

39:38

that she's going to sign, she's going

39:40

to one up him, day one, night

39:42

one in the Oval Office, she'll have

39:44

a stack of 500 executive orders. Well,

39:46

I'll tell you, we're busy enough

39:49

in this current administration with clients

39:51

that are looking to establish secondary

39:53

It'll be even busier with President

39:56

A of C. That's what I

39:58

was going to say. segue this

40:00

into is, more importantly, bringing this

40:02

back to what we were discussing

40:05

earlier, sovereignty of your wealth, with

40:07

this whips all this back and

40:09

forth, and this abuse of executive

40:11

powers that may seem good now, but

40:14

in the future, everybody who's beating

40:16

the table saying, yes, more, more,

40:18

more, is going to quickly change

40:21

their tenor for more and more

40:23

more more to please stop. This

40:25

is insane. This is unconstitutional. And

40:27

I think being able to... separate

40:29

yourself from having to play within

40:31

that whips all and actually create

40:34

true sovereignty is important. So like

40:36

on this topic of finding

40:38

secondary residency and I guess

40:40

the broader topic of multi-jurisdictional

40:43

setups for wealth preservation, that's

40:45

something that you've done a lot

40:47

of work on as well and something that

40:49

should be on people's mind. Yeah, for sure.

40:51

I mean, and it doesn't have to just

40:54

be all doom and gloom either. I

40:56

mean to a certain degree it's just

40:58

opportunistic. We just kind of have this

41:00

general philosophy that you know in

41:03

a hyper connected world like we live

41:05

in now. I mean you and I

41:07

both know people all around the

41:09

world and we interact with

41:11

them perhaps as often as

41:13

if not more often than

41:15

we interact with our own

41:17

family members sometimes. So our

41:19

relationships are already global. We

41:21

have a digital asset that can

41:24

be everywhere in nowhere at the

41:26

same time. The laws of

41:28

various jurisdictions the regulatory

41:30

frameworks of various jurisdictions

41:33

those should be considered

41:35

Assets in a playbook that we figure

41:37

out how to leverage and so whether

41:39

you're talking about Want to establish

41:41

the legal right to live in

41:43

another country in case we get

41:46

to another lockdown situation you you're

41:48

prohibited from leaving One country. Well

41:50

if you've got a legal

41:52

secondary residency in Portugal or

41:55

Italy or New Zealand or some place like

41:57

that if you have a legal residency there you have

41:59

a legal right to there. And so you would

42:01

have, by establishing a secondary

42:03

residency, you maintain a high

42:06

level of freedom of travel

42:08

when you might not otherwise

42:10

have that freedom of travel.

42:12

And when you have significant

42:15

wealth, however, however, you define that,

42:17

I think it's just, I think

42:19

it's short-sighted to maintain all

42:21

of that wealth in any

42:24

single jurisdiction. even if it's

42:26

a great jurisdiction like the

42:28

United States is. And the

42:30

United States is a great

42:32

jurisdiction for assets. But as we've

42:34

seen very recently under the Obama

42:37

administration and the Biden administration and

42:39

even really under Trump's first administration

42:41

when he was very much anti-bit

42:44

coin or like a no-coiner type

42:46

of mindset, it's like, you know,

42:48

if you've got a lot of

42:51

wealth in Bitcoin or whatever you

42:53

want to call it, And they're

42:55

not the same. I mean, I don't

42:57

equate the two, but if you've got

42:59

this wealth and this type of asset

43:01

that doesn't have a clear regulatory framework

43:04

or maybe even a

43:06

hostile regulatory framework, you

43:08

better have banking, you better

43:11

have financial relationships in a

43:13

more favorable jurisdiction. And so

43:15

even now, during this Trump

43:17

administration, we're still doing a

43:20

lot of multi-jurisdictional planning for

43:22

people because... Again, part of

43:24

the cyclicality of politics, like

43:27

we talked about, part of

43:29

the fact that we're already

43:32

living in a globally interconnected

43:34

world. The geopolitical order is

43:37

changing in real time. We want

43:39

to create a level of mobility

43:41

and versatility to our

43:43

wealth, and that means having

43:46

certain structures with certain

43:48

financial relationships.

43:50

and certain fiduciary

43:52

relationships lined up

43:54

in more than one

43:56

favorable jurisdiction, so we

43:58

have optionality. the event you,

44:01

in the event we, let's say

44:03

it's not, let's say it's not

44:05

President AOC, let's say it's President

44:07

AOC. Well, do you want to hold

44:10

a whole lot of your wealth in

44:12

Bitcoin or in crypto in all of

44:14

it's in the United States

44:16

under President Warren's administration?

44:20

Probably not. It'd be nice

44:22

to already have established economic

44:25

relationships in a place

44:27

like Switzerland. or in a place

44:29

like Canada even, or in a

44:31

place like the Bahamas or some

44:33

place that's more favorable to managing

44:36

these assets that could very well

44:38

fall out of favor again as

44:40

you and I have both seen. Yeah,

44:42

so pulling on the thread, you

44:45

mentioned Portugal Bahamas, Switzerland, Canada,

44:47

maybe even what else is

44:49

on that list? Well, I

44:51

think it depends on what

44:53

we're solving for. So from

44:56

a structure and ownership perspective.

44:58

Again, I kind of look at this

45:00

from a buckets, like buckets

45:02

perspective. If you're talking about

45:05

U.S. domestic planning, you're probably

45:07

going to be using states

45:09

like Nevada, Wyoming, South Dakota,

45:11

Tennessee, New Hampshire, Texas,

45:14

potentially, for U.S. domestic. Offshore,

45:16

you might be looking at something

45:18

like Nevis, for a limited liability

45:21

company, Island of Nevis, and

45:23

the Caribbean. You might have

45:25

Cook Island's Trust. Maybe multiple Cook

45:27

Islands trusts. You might do something

45:29

in the Channel Islands. You might

45:31

have banking in the Isle of

45:33

Man. You might have banking in

45:35

Switzerland or Liechtenstein if you can get

45:37

it. You might have some banking even

45:40

potentially in Singapore, although they're kind of

45:42

making some moves right now. If you're

45:44

looking at residency options, that

45:47

is a constantly shifting landscape. And

45:49

it kind of depends on what

45:51

you're looking for. If you can

45:53

establish residency by inheritance, which means

45:56

if you're you know if you've got

45:58

like Ireland I think if you're If

46:00

your grandparents immigrated from Ireland,

46:02

I think you can pick

46:05

up citizenship through your grandparents.

46:07

My family has been here

46:09

since the 1640s, so I

46:11

can't claim Irish citizenship through,

46:14

basically through birthright. I've been here

46:16

too long. But if you don't

46:18

have the inheritance type of structure,

46:20

whether it's in Ireland or

46:23

England or wherever, you would have

46:25

to go through some type of investment

46:27

regime. or a relocation regime, maybe

46:29

a nomad visa or something like

46:32

that. And then places like Italy

46:34

are very popular right now. Places

46:36

like Portugal are very popular right

46:39

now. Malta is to a certain

46:41

degree somewhat popular. Cyprus is still

46:43

on the table. But that's a

46:46

constantly shifting landscape as well. Those

46:48

countries are constantly jogging with each

46:50

other to figure out, okay, well,

46:53

what are we trying to what

46:55

are trying to attract? Do we want

46:57

people to buy real estate? Then they

46:59

will have a real estate purchase option.

47:02

Do want them to invest in our

47:04

stock market? The new one of them

47:06

to contribute to our culture and to

47:08

our non-profit space. Then maybe like

47:11

a donor contribution would be there.

47:13

Do we want to build up

47:15

venture capital companies here like portfolio

47:17

companies here in our country? Then

47:20

you can do like a private

47:22

investment type of option. Those things

47:24

constantly shift around. And so for a

47:27

lot of our clients, we help them kind

47:29

of figure out, okay, well, what jurisdictions

47:32

make sense, what's going to give

47:34

you the greatest level of flexibility,

47:37

and then helps them kind of

47:39

pair up the right, the right opportunity

47:41

with what they're trying to

47:43

accomplish. Yeah. I imagine with the

47:45

geopolitical situation where it stands now

47:47

in the push towards this more

47:50

multi-polar world trying to stay on

47:52

top of all this, or imagine.

47:54

These smaller areas too, I

47:56

mean Switzerland most famously historically

47:59

has... been neutral. What I

48:01

imagine, like the Bahamas and

48:03

Portugal, maybe even some of

48:06

these other jurisdictions, will try

48:08

to stay neutral as the

48:10

world gets more multipolar, but

48:12

it's probably something that this is

48:14

your job that everybody needs to

48:16

stay on top of as things

48:18

evolve. Yeah, I mean, that's really what

48:21

we do. I mean, we're like strategic

48:23

air traffic control for these

48:25

clients. It's like, okay. You

48:27

know, you have some concerns, whatever

48:30

those concerns are, will help you

48:32

think through them, help you spot the

48:34

issues, help you try to apply some

48:36

second order thinking, if you get

48:38

this, then what, and then try to

48:41

bring the right solutions to them.

48:43

You know, but it sets it constantly,

48:45

it's always changing. Just like

48:47

we talked about the cyclicality

48:49

of the US political cycle,

48:51

we talked about the temporal

48:53

nature of tax laws. All the

48:55

states in the United States are

48:58

constantly jockeying with each other to

49:00

be, you know, some of them

49:03

are trying to be more protective,

49:05

more favorable from a privacy perspective,

49:07

some don't care about that, and

49:10

that's a constantly shifting

49:12

landscape. There are income

49:14

tax opportunities that open and

49:16

close within the United States,

49:18

and then you have to think about

49:21

the broader world. And, you know, once

49:23

you have a total wealth of... You

49:25

know call it 50 million plus

49:27

maybe even below that you better

49:30

start looking at having a foot

49:32

Outside your home country wherever

49:34

that is just because You know

49:36

when the cycle turns you you want

49:38

to be prepared for that Yeah And

49:40

I guess I'm curious to touch

49:43

on this topic too you mentioned

49:45

in 2017 you really dove in

49:47

the Bitcoin and built this special

49:49

specialty in the special practice

49:51

and bespoke to cater to the

49:54

needs of Bitcoiners who had accumulated

49:56

on a Bitcoin, watched a price

49:58

go up and wake up. to an

50:00

extreme amount of wealth.

50:02

But obviously, with this current

50:05

administration with

50:07

Bitcoin turning 16, being at

50:09

a trillion dollar asset and

50:11

above close to a $2

50:13

trillion asset now for a

50:16

period of time, it looks

50:18

like the floor is above

50:20

a trillion dollars for Bitcoin's

50:23

market cap for the foreseeable

50:25

future, likely forever. Are you

50:27

seeing in terms of? new

50:29

clients or existing clients that

50:32

weren't Bitcoiners? What's the appetite

50:34

for wealth that was built

50:36

outside of Bitcoin to get exposure

50:39

to the Bitcoin market? Yeah,

50:41

it's interesting. The clients that

50:43

I think because of our, because

50:45

the fact that we built in this

50:48

space, I don't, I can't think of

50:50

a single client we have right

50:52

now that doesn't have a

50:54

significant position in Bitcoin

50:57

already. No, they didn't necessarily

50:59

make their wealth in Bitcoin. They might

51:01

have made their wealth through like a

51:03

tech exit or whatever. But by the

51:05

time they come to us, a lot of what

51:08

they're coming, a lot of the way they find

51:10

us is they say, you know, I've got $25

51:12

million worth of Bitcoin on a

51:14

$150 million estate. You know, none

51:16

of my wealth managers, none of

51:18

my strategists even think about Bitcoin.

51:21

At least these guys are thinking

51:23

about it. Maybe I'll talk to

51:25

them. a significant investment

51:27

decision in favor of

51:29

Bitcoin. But that said, we also

51:32

see a growing number of, we

51:34

don't have them as clients yet,

51:36

but a growing number of

51:38

inquiries to bespoke for people

51:40

who don't have any Bitcoin

51:43

at all, and they just

51:45

like the way we see the

51:47

world. And so those clients, they

51:49

know that we're in Bitcoin, it's

51:51

all over our website, and it's,

51:53

I'm all over. podcast

51:55

like yours. They figure

51:57

out pretty quickly.

51:59

that we're for a Bitcoin.

52:01

I mean, I've got Bitcoin posters

52:04

on my wall. So it's like

52:06

pretty unapologetic as far

52:09

as that goes. We have been working

52:11

with a couple right now. They've

52:13

got, I want to say it's

52:15

like 35 million maybe in one

52:18

of the Bitcoin ETFs and they

52:20

want to own the underlying.

52:22

And so we're helping them think

52:24

about how should you own the

52:27

underlying? because you're long Bitcoin you're

52:29

not just short the price exposure

52:31

you want the Bitcoin so then

52:33

how do you accumulate it strategically

52:36

how do you possess that strategically

52:38

how do you wrap the ownership of

52:41

that from a tax perspective and from

52:43

a long-term governance perspective and so we

52:45

you know we're helping them with that

52:48

because I think they kind of got

52:50

curious about Bitcoin around the time that

52:52

ETPs came out and made a pretty

52:54

significant allocation there. They enjoyed the economic

52:57

run-up and then along the way

52:59

they became orange-pilled. I said, yeah,

53:01

this is not just a short-term

53:03

opportunistic investment. This is a fundamentally

53:06

different way to think about money.

53:08

We want to own the underlying.

53:10

Can you guys help us do that? It's

53:12

a validation of a thesis that many of

53:14

us had with the ETS. Many of your

53:16

people are bad. You don't own it, but

53:19

it's a top of funnel marketing tool.

53:21

Get people into the ETS. they do the

53:23

research become orange-pilled recognize that

53:25

that holding the underlying is

53:28

preferable to holding shares in

53:30

the ETF and ultimately look

53:32

to to move that direction so

53:35

that's a great validation of that thesis.

53:37

Yeah and we and we tell people that

53:39

it's like you know if you own the

53:41

ETPs or ETFs you don't own Bitcoin

53:44

I mean it's you've got price

53:46

exposure which if that's why you want

53:48

that's fine it's great it's liquid

53:50

you can be non-emotional.

53:53

I mean, I'm clearly

53:55

non-emotional and non-objective when

53:57

it comes to my

53:59

Bitcoin. But when I have a cash position

54:01

that I just don't don't know what to do

54:03

with I park that in an ETF It's like because

54:06

I'm still going to ride the ball of

54:08

Bitcoin, but I'm not emotional about that I

54:10

don't get emotional about selling my ETP

54:12

positions I would get emotional about some

54:15

of my Bitcoin positions and I

54:17

think this was a pleasant surprise for

54:19

everybody it looks like I bit filed to

54:21

enable in-kind redemptions of their

54:23

shares into Spot Bitcoin. Does that make

54:26

your job easier because I know

54:28

there's a qualified or qualified

54:30

or What's it called? QPs, qualified

54:32

participants or? Yeah, it makes it makes it

54:35

a lot easier, I think. I think

54:37

it's a great move. It'll be

54:39

interesting to see who follows suit.

54:41

Although, like in the case of these

54:43

clients that we're talking to who

54:45

hold the ETF right now and

54:48

want to hold the underlying,

54:50

it would make their transition

54:52

very very easy theoretically. It's

54:54

going to be interesting to

54:56

see how many people take them up

54:58

on that. redemption offer and

55:00

actually will redeem for the underlying.

55:03

And how would that work? Because

55:05

there's, I think, qualified participants, the

55:07

wrong term, but there's P-A-R,

55:09

whatever, but there's the people that can

55:12

redeem or like the Fidelitys, the who

55:14

knows with SAB, 122 now, maybe it's

55:16

Morgan Stanley or whoever, would they have

55:18

to redeem it and then send it

55:20

along? I would guess so. Yeah, I don't

55:22

know. I've not done the, I've not

55:24

done the homework to figure out the

55:27

mechanics of the mechanics of that. What's

55:30

a stay on top of that? It's

55:32

always great catching up with you. I

55:34

hate that We only have an

55:36

hour here, but I think It's

55:39

important as I said this is

55:41

a topic that fascinates me I

55:43

think we do at least one

55:45

episode a month now at this

55:47

point on wealth management as it

55:49

pertains to Bitcoin and just thinking

55:52

about outside of Bitcoin externally. That's

55:54

something that I think the world

55:56

needs to get back to is

55:58

this idea of building. wealth,

56:01

hopefully growing that wealth at

56:03

the very least, maintaining that wealth

56:05

and passing it down is the

56:07

normalization of the high velocity. Trash

56:09

economy has engulfed the world over

56:12

the last five decades. I think

56:14

getting back to this low-time

56:16

preference, wealth accumulation, wealth

56:19

preservation, mindset is extremely

56:21

important for bringing quality

56:24

of life and productivity back

56:26

to the world. Yeah, I think I

56:28

think that's right the I Think there's this

56:30

there's a bit more complication

56:32

to it. I think because The You know

56:34

you're you're at a point right now where

56:37

you're you're getting You've got

56:39

economic success you've been in

56:41

Bitcoin for a long time you got your

56:43

own family now and you're you know

56:45

you're thinking You know about your

56:47

family, you know, you're thinking you

56:49

know, you're family, you know, you're

56:51

thinking you're family, you know, you're

56:53

family, you're family, you know, you're to

56:56

them at some point down the road.

56:58

And I think that's really important. But

57:00

kind of back to the Guild of

57:02

Age for a second, and even back

57:05

even farther, Andrew Carnegie in

57:07

1889 wrote a fascinating article,

57:09

just simply titled Wealth in the

57:11

North American Review. It was published

57:14

in June of 1889. And Carnegie

57:16

was one of the great wealth builders

57:18

of the Guild of the Guild of Age.

57:21

And during his lifetime, in

57:23

this article he wrote in this

57:25

article he wrote. that the man

57:27

who dies rich dies disgraced. And

57:29

his point was that it becomes

57:32

the responsibility of

57:34

those who build great wealth.

57:36

Once they have provided for

57:39

a certain level of sustenance

57:41

for their family, it

57:43

then becomes incumbent

57:45

on them to think beyond themselves.

57:48

And so Andrew Carnegie, the way

57:50

he lived that forward, was during

57:52

his lifetime, he gave away like

57:54

80 plus percent of his total

57:57

wealth to fund libraries around the

57:59

English-speaking world. And so he took

58:01

that on as his mantle. And

58:03

he did not want to leave

58:05

his family with all of

58:08

the wealth that went along

58:10

with that. And the great-grandson

58:12

of Cornelius, the Commodore

58:14

Vanderbilt, said that inheriting

58:16

wealth was the single

58:18

greatest failure in his

58:20

life because it robbed

58:22

from him all sense of

58:25

ambition. And he had nothing

58:27

to strive for it. The next

58:29

phase of human flourishing, I think,

58:32

beyond, once we reach a certain

58:34

level of economic satisfaction

58:36

and we've provided for our families,

58:39

I think we then have to

58:41

start thinking about what is beyond

58:44

ourselves that we should make the

58:46

world a better place. And our

58:48

clients are to the point where they think,

58:50

you know, a lot of the inheritance

58:53

I want to leave my children. is

58:55

a better world to grow up

58:57

in and a better world to

58:59

raise my grandchildren in. And so

59:02

absolutely providing for their

59:04

needs, but beyond providing

59:07

for their needs, being careful to

59:09

not rob them of a sense

59:11

of ambition and a sense

59:13

of a drive and a sense of

59:15

desire to grow, that can

59:17

be the dark side of

59:20

inheriting a significant amount

59:22

of wealth. So that's a

59:24

lot of the conversation that we

59:26

have with clients. They've had great, how

59:28

much is enough? And then beyond that,

59:30

what is it? That's funny you mentioned

59:32

that because yesterday I recorded an

59:35

episode with Kevin Dolan, who's throwing

59:37

a Natalism conference here in Austin

59:39

next month, and part of, at

59:42

one point in the conversation, following

59:44

enough. As I said, we've been talking about a

59:46

lot on the show we got on like wealth

59:48

preservation and passing it on, he

59:50

brought up. An interesting point

59:53

that I never heard is that I

59:55

forget, I think it was at one of

59:57

the meetups that he had up

59:59

in Dallas. a couple of weeks ago

1:00:01

they had a state planner come

1:00:03

and he was asked the question

1:00:05

like what are the most successful

1:00:07

families who have generated

1:00:09

and passed down wealth throughout

1:00:11

generations what is the common

1:00:14

thread between all them and he

1:00:16

mentioned that there's a sense of

1:00:18

vocation so he tied it into

1:00:20

a family in Dallas that has

1:00:22

had multi generations of wealth.

1:00:25

passed down and maintained and they

1:00:27

have a vocation in Dallas where

1:00:29

they manage some of the river and

1:00:31

that is like their family vocation as

1:00:34

we are we are responsible

1:00:36

for the river in the Dallas area

1:00:38

or this part of Dallas and we

1:00:41

are tasked with maintaining and making

1:00:43

sure that it thrives for not

1:00:45

only us but our community as

1:00:47

well and I thought that was just a

1:00:50

really interesting point to pull out

1:00:52

is as you. generate this

1:00:54

wealth similar to cartonaggy maybe

1:00:56

you didn't do a good job

1:00:59

of instilling that that thought of

1:01:01

vocation as it pertains to public

1:01:03

education and libraries to his heirs

1:01:06

but something to think about in

1:01:08

your local areas there's something that

1:01:10

you could help build up maintain

1:01:13

and then pass that that vocation

1:01:15

down to your kids

1:01:17

grandkids great-grandkids Yeah, I mean, do

1:01:19

you want your children and grandchildren to

1:01:22

be the wealthiest people in a world

1:01:24

that's burning and rotten, or do you

1:01:26

want them to be really well prepared

1:01:28

and really well provided for in a

1:01:31

world that flourishes? And so those are

1:01:33

all the conversations that we can have

1:01:35

with our clients. And again, we're kind

1:01:37

of agnostic as to what their causes

1:01:39

are. We just want to be

1:01:41

important with them. So, you know, those are in

1:01:43

each of in each of our... very large

1:01:45

client cohorts in each case. They're

1:01:47

giving away the vast majority of

1:01:50

their wealth during their lifetimes because

1:01:52

they just know they've got hundreds

1:01:54

of millions of dollars and their

1:01:56

kids don't need that. Their kids are

1:01:58

gonna be fine. So then. Then what? Michael

1:02:01

Saylor, don't just burn your Bitcoin.

1:02:03

Think about it, sir. Think about it,

1:02:05

sir. Think about it. Yeah, I think

1:02:07

that's right. Mr. Saylor, seriously. I

1:02:09

mean, if you burn your Bitcoin,

1:02:11

that's great. Marty's stack becomes more

1:02:14

valuable. My stack becomes more valuable

1:02:16

and I will thank you. My kids

1:02:18

will thank you. But do something meaningful

1:02:20

and philanthropic with instead.

1:02:23

Yeah. Make the world a better place. Mr.

1:02:25

McClintock. Thank you for doing your

1:02:27

part to help. advise people and

1:02:29

manage their wealth as they try to

1:02:32

do this. That's the one thing over

1:02:34

the many conversations we've had. Over

1:02:36

the last couple of years, I

1:02:38

really appreciate and admire about your

1:02:40

work is really getting into the details

1:02:42

with your clients of how, what is

1:02:44

your goal and how can help you

1:02:47

achieve that and from what you've described

1:02:49

a lot of your client bases. I want

1:02:52

to make the world a better place in

1:02:54

this particular industry, this particular. nonprofit

1:02:56

area and it's like all right

1:02:58

let's get to work let's make

1:03:01

it happen yeah I mean we we strive

1:03:03

we strive for authenticity and all that

1:03:05

we do I mean we try to

1:03:07

be pretty much what you see is

1:03:09

what you get type of thing and

1:03:11

we're gonna ask people uncomfortable questions that

1:03:13

doesn't mean we like to watch people

1:03:15

squirm but we want to help them

1:03:17

think and you know it's like well we

1:03:19

will ask them questions and if they don't

1:03:22

want to deal with those and that's

1:03:24

that's okay but we're you know we only want

1:03:26

to work with are ready for

1:03:28

some level of authenticity.

1:03:31

You know, we believe in curiosity,

1:03:34

creativity, authenticity, and

1:03:36

resilience. I mean,

1:03:39

those are our

1:03:41

fundamental tenets. And that's

1:03:44

what we try to

1:03:46

measure everything else by.

1:03:48

Awesome. We're going to

1:03:50

everybody find out more

1:03:53

about Bespoke. somewhat episodically.

1:03:55

I'm just McClintock underscore

1:03:57

M is my handle

1:03:59

there. Also in

1:04:01

LinkedIn because that's where a

1:04:03

lot of people still hang

1:04:05

out. So yeah, that's how people can

1:04:08

find what I do and learn more

1:04:10

about our work Oh, yeah. Well,

1:04:12

thank you. I hope you enjoy

1:04:14

the rest of your cold afternoon

1:04:16

You too in the in the

1:04:18

sub freezing Austin climes down there

1:04:20

so luckily we had the always

1:04:22

great to chat with you and I

1:04:24

love the worth that you do so keep

1:04:26

up the good work. Thank you You

1:04:28

too Preserve your wealth freaks.

1:04:30

Think about it. Peace and love.