0:01

Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like

0:03

what we've done here on Terrible Things

0:05

for Asking, you might want to check

0:07

out our YouTube channel. We have two

0:09

new videos going up every

0:11

week over

0:13

at youtube.com

0:15

slash at

0:17

feelingsandco. That's feelings and co. There's

0:19

a link to it in our show description. So

0:22

see you over on YouTube if that's what

0:24

you're into. What

0:27

a sales gal I am. Spring

0:30

Spring Savings are in the air and

0:32

at Ross, where they have savings on

0:34

all the brands you love. From the

0:37

latest fashion to outdoor decor and even

0:39

pet supplies, savings are in every aisle. Go

0:41

to Ross and save 20 to 60% off

0:43

other retailers prices on your favorite spring fines.

0:46

you? Most

0:48

of us say fine or good,

0:50

but obviously it's not always fine

0:52

and sometimes it's not even that

0:55

good This is

0:57

a podcast that gives people the space

0:59

to be honest about how they really

1:01

feel. It's a place

1:03

to talk about life, the

1:05

good, the bad, the awkward,

1:07

the complicated. I'm

1:09

Nora McInerney, and this

1:11

is Thanks for Asking. Hello,

1:19

and welcome back to Thanks For Asking,

1:21

the call -in show about what matters

1:23

to you. This episode is a

1:25

little bit different. It is not a

1:27

phone call. This is not a

1:29

call -in. This is a call -out. This

1:32

is an interview episode. It's

1:34

been a while since we've

1:36

done one of these, but

1:38

I wanted to make space

1:40

within this show

1:42

for conversations with

1:45

Authors of books that I have

1:47

really enjoyed and books that I

1:49

think would be relevant or helpful

1:51

to you. This

1:54

conversation is for anybody

1:56

who feels burned out,

1:59

which the last time I

2:01

checked seemed to be pretty

2:03

much everybody. Modern

2:05

life is quite exhausting, and I

2:08

say that as a person who

2:10

is self -employed and has been self

2:12

-employed for 10 years. I am

2:14

the worst boss that I have

2:16

ever had. I

2:18

look around at

2:20

my peers, people

2:23

who are around my age, people who

2:25

are even a little bit older, people

2:27

who are a little bit younger, and

2:29

it feels like everybody is really exhausted,

2:31

really exhausted trying to keep up with

2:33

the demands of modern life. And

2:35

I have found a

2:37

lot of comfort in

2:39

the writing and thinking

2:41

of today's author, Maria

2:43

Bowler. Her

2:46

new -ish book, still

2:48

new, still new, came out

2:50

in January. Her book is

2:52

called Making Time, a new

2:54

vision for crafting a life

2:56

beyond productivity. I

2:59

read this book

3:01

very, very quickly, even

3:03

though it's not meant to be

3:05

read quickly. It is really meant

3:07

to be savored for you to

3:09

dip in and out of. This

3:11

is not a self -help book.

3:13

You will not find a formula

3:15

in here. You will not find

3:17

any hacks, but you

3:20

will find really thought

3:22

-provoking Ideas you

3:24

will find a lot of insights

3:26

you will find inspiration for your

3:29

own life whether or not you

3:31

are a person whose. Life

3:34

revolves around creative output

3:36

or whether or not

3:38

that is your career

3:40

field I think that the

3:43

spirit of this book really

3:45

applies to. Anybody

3:48

who is.

3:51

living in the world that

3:53

we are living in and just feels

3:55

like they're not doing enough. They

3:57

are not enough and that

3:59

they should be

4:02

doing something that

4:04

it should feel easier, right?

4:06

It should feel easier. So

4:09

enough of me. Let's get

4:11

into the conversation with Maria. Okay,

4:18

this is starting 10

4:20

minutes late and

4:22

Maria my cortisol level

4:25

at Technological

4:28

issue that happens truly every

4:30

single time I record

4:32

or have recorded for the

4:34

past eight years was probably

4:38

At levels

4:40

that no doctor could have

4:42

anticipated or understood levels that

4:44

doctors would marvel at That

4:48

is why this book

4:50

and all of your work

4:52

resonates so deeply with

4:55

me because being

4:58

chased by a tiger or

5:00

a woolly mammoth or whatever

5:02

is coded into my

5:04

DNA is actually manifesting itself

5:06

in the year 2025 as,

5:08

oh my gosh, that

5:10

was 10 minutes that could

5:13

have been us

5:15

making content,

5:18

doing our work, doing our good

5:21

jobs, being good girls

5:23

and getting things done.

5:25

And I wasted

5:27

it with whatever happened between

5:29

the chords and the things.

5:31

And that's what we're going

5:33

to talk about today. I

5:37

love this segue. That

5:39

was elegant. Was it? So,

5:42

Maria, you are... American

5:44

and I have to point that out because

5:47

people me tend

5:49

to believe that Canadians are

5:51

superior in every conceivable

5:53

way that you are

5:55

a cut above not

5:57

just geographically above us but

5:59

above us on like a higher

6:01

plane of consciousness the things

6:03

that we struggle with certainly can't

6:06

have infected you are. You

6:08

know big sisters from from the north.

6:11

And yet your work would suggest

6:13

otherwise. So I would love to

6:15

know, prior

6:17

to being the kind of person

6:19

who could write this book about creating

6:22

a life beyond productivity, what

6:25

your relationship was to

6:27

productivity. Thank

6:30

you for that. Yeah, I mean,

6:32

I'm curious to hear how it

6:34

would be articulated in different generations,

6:36

but for... being born in the

6:38

mid 80s. It was definitely the

6:40

vibe of like you can do

6:43

anything You can be anything like

6:45

let's build up our self -esteem and

6:47

therefore you must do everything and

6:49

it's very you focused and Possibilities

6:51

are endless. There was at least

6:53

at least in my corner of

6:55

you know suburban Winnipeg, right? I

6:58

don't know that this was the

7:00

case for everyone, but that was

7:02

certainly the vibe at that

7:04

moment in history for

7:06

for my corner of life.

7:08

So I absorbed that

7:10

and I, you

7:12

know, associated my

7:14

okayness with

7:17

the honor roll. And

7:19

if not the honor roll, at least

7:21

like not failing. It

7:24

was just, you know, you

7:26

can be okay, you can climb a ladder

7:28

that is totally available in front of you

7:30

and it makes sense was the promise of

7:32

the time like you can get the you

7:34

can go to college you can get the

7:36

job or if you don't go to college

7:38

you can get a different kind of job

7:40

that will provide you a life and um and

7:43

of course i

7:46

tried and when i

7:48

succeeded it didn't work and

7:50

then when it didn't work

7:52

it didn't work as i

7:54

sort of became an adult

7:56

and I was an editor.

7:58

I sat across people as a

8:00

coach and spiritual director.

8:02

I taught undergraduates. And

8:04

in all of those scenarios, I found

8:07

that different people were coming to me with

8:09

the same version of that problem, which

8:11

was like, it's not

8:13

working. I just can't make

8:15

the schedule work. If I

8:17

just got the right routine

8:19

down, then

8:21

it would be okay. Can you help

8:23

me get a great

8:25

routine? Or can you

8:27

tell me how to

8:29

get my writing

8:32

life right, depending on

8:34

the context? But it was the same

8:36

question, which was like, there's got

8:38

to be a secret for what to do. There's

8:41

got to be a cheat code. And once

8:43

I figure out that cheat code, then everything

8:45

will make sense. I

8:47

know this feeling

8:49

all too well. I always feel like

8:51

I'm one app. notebook

8:53

pen or schedule

8:56

away from

8:58

unlocking. Something

9:01

and in my experience that

9:03

kind of mentality has meant

9:05

that even when and I

9:07

was really struck by you

9:09

saying when it worked it didn't work

9:11

and when it didn't work it didn't

9:13

work when things have worked for me right

9:15

like objectively if I

9:18

looked at my life.

9:20

in any sense personally

9:22

professionally from you know

9:24

the eyes of myself ten

9:26

years ago or twenty years

9:28

ago fifteen fifteen

9:30

in the middle of those two

9:32

numbers um where's the child i would say

9:34

like you did it you you you you

9:36

got it you got it

9:39

you did it and

9:41

also every accomplishment

9:43

has been tainted

9:45

by that mindset of, well, I

9:47

guess I should be doing more

9:49

or it should feel differently. It

9:52

is basically meant for me that

9:54

I have metabolized every accomplishment before

9:56

even tasting it. Nothing feels good or

9:58

tastes good because it could be

10:00

something else. It could be better.

10:02

What did it feel like and

10:04

what were those moments for you when

10:06

it was working and not

10:08

working? I

10:11

remember when I

10:13

I got a job at

10:15

a magazine in New

10:17

York City. From coming

10:20

from Winnipeg, I couldn't imagine anything

10:22

more glamorous. There wasn't anything more

10:24

glamorous. That was for listeners who

10:26

are any other age group. Working

10:29

at a magazine

10:31

in New York City

10:34

was what our generation

10:36

of women was promised to

10:38

be the most glamorous,

10:40

most fulfilling, most, the apex

10:42

of literally everything. And

10:44

guess what, Maria? I never

10:46

made it, baby. I

10:48

didn't make it there. Okay, I tried.

10:50

I tried. I was offered an internship,

10:52

$50 a day for FHM Magazine, for

10:54

Him Magazine. It was like a dirtier

10:56

version of Maxim. Obviously I

10:58

nailed it because I was like, well, I

11:01

know what. I don't want to write like an

11:03

idiot man. And my dad was

11:05

like, how will you support yourself on $50 a

11:07

day? And I was like, may

11:13

I? And he said no. and I was like,

11:15

OK, wow. okay. But you made

11:17

it, baby. You made it to

11:19

magazines. And I think we do

11:21

need to take a moment to

11:23

appreciate that accomplishment. the

11:27

aspirational 20 -something in me sees

11:29

the aspirational 20 -something in you. And

11:32

I was somewhere

11:34

in Brooklyn, like

11:37

seething with jealousy while

11:39

working in public relations and being very

11:41

bad at it, I should say. PR

11:44

was another dream. That's another dream. That was

11:46

another dream. Then I got there and I was

11:48

like, well, I'm just sitting in a cubicle, typing

11:51

emails. It's

11:53

truly so unglamorous. taking

11:57

three subways every

11:59

day from Brooklyn. You

12:01

were walking in the weirdest ballet

12:03

flats and it's like that could not

12:05

have been good for her feet. It

12:08

was like that was the air of ballet flats

12:10

too. It was like ballet flats with everything. Yeah.

12:12

Everything. Yeah. You're walking eight miles a day ballet

12:14

flats. Yeah.

12:18

Just trying to keep it together

12:20

in my button up under the

12:22

fluorescent lights. Yeah. Well, yeah.

12:25

getting there and realizing like, yeah,

12:27

this was the thing that I

12:29

thought I wanted. But of course, the

12:31

way you have to be to

12:33

get there is the way you have

12:35

to maintain being there. And so

12:37

if I hustled to get there, which

12:40

I did, I didn't

12:42

get to coast once I was

12:44

there. It was just like, oh no,

12:46

now you're afraid of losing the

12:48

thing. And every goal

12:50

is like that when we have this

12:52

sense that we are just one

12:54

thing away from being who we really

12:56

want to be. Goals

12:58

become threats or aspirations or

13:00

ideals become sort of this

13:03

thing hanging over our head. And

13:05

then once we get there, the

13:07

feeling that we sort of motivated

13:10

ourselves by, whether it was the

13:12

fear of losing out, the fear

13:14

of not getting there, that doesn't

13:16

go away. You

13:19

just either pick a new

13:21

goal or you try to prevent

13:23

losing it. So that was

13:25

certainly my experience. And that was

13:27

a bit of a crisis

13:29

at that time. Did

13:32

you know that it

13:34

was a crisis? Because at

13:36

that age of my

13:38

life in that era, I

13:40

truly thought, Okay,

13:43

it's a crisis because there's something wrong

13:45

with me. Everyone

13:47

else has got to be feeling better

13:49

than this. Everybody else might have figured

13:51

it out. It's me. I'm the problem.

13:56

I did blame myself.

13:58

I think I realized

14:00

that I had borrowed

14:02

a version of success

14:04

that was only really

14:06

partial to me. I

14:08

remember thinking, I'm like, um

14:11

if this is me like at

14:13

my best and this is what it's

14:16

like to show up at me

14:18

at my best and there's a huge

14:20

I felt like there was this

14:22

huge other part of me that was

14:24

screaming that like had no space

14:26

to to be expressed like um the

14:28

only thing that was valued was

14:30

sort of like a little sliver of

14:32

reality and that's what it felt

14:34

like I felt like there's this just

14:36

giant disconnect and like oh but

14:38

I thought that If I could just

14:40

be smart enough, sharp enough, witty

14:43

enough, that was sort of the

14:45

currency in that sphere. Then

14:48

I would feel okay

14:50

with myself and fully accepted.

14:53

Yeah, I didn't. Do

15:14

you know how long it

15:16

had been since I actually saw

15:18

a doctor for myself? Not

15:20

a doctor for my pregnancy, not

15:22

a doctor for my children,

15:24

a doctor for me. It had

15:26

been so long that I

15:28

couldn't even remember my former doctor's

15:30

name. Why was I putting

15:32

it off? I was putting it

15:34

off because finding a doctor

15:36

is annoying and difficult and navigating

15:38

the healthcare system is deeply

15:40

annoying and also I will put

15:42

anything off. I'm a master

15:44

procrastinator and then came ZockDock. I

15:46

ended up trying ZocDoc because

15:48

I heard about it on another

15:51

podcast. I loved it so

15:53

much. I said, will you please

15:55

advertise on my podcast? They

15:57

said yes. ZocDoc is a

15:59

free website where you can search

16:01

and compare doctors that are in

16:03

your network, doctors of a specific

16:05

specialty, doctors by location. We're talking

16:07

everything from mental health, dental health,

16:09

primary care, urgent care. I found

16:12

the best doctor. I love her.

16:14

I think she feels the same

16:16

way about me. But the point

16:18

is, I found a doctor through

16:20

ZockDoc and it was so easy.

16:22

I made the account. I

16:24

logged in, found her. I was seeing her

16:27

two days later. That is unheard

16:29

of in my world. And I'm never

16:31

going to just not go to the

16:33

doctor for years again, because ZockDoc is

16:35

keeping track and they will be like,

16:37

lady, you have not done your well

16:39

woman visit. It's time to do it.

16:41

I truly love this. If you have

16:43

not. checked it out yet. If you

16:45

have not tried it, I insist that

16:47

you do. You are worth taking care

16:49

of. You are worth taking a little

16:51

bit of time out of your day

16:53

to go take care of yourself and

16:55

find a doctor that is right for

16:57

you. So stop putting it off. Go

16:59

to ZockDoc.com slash thanks. You can

17:01

instantly book a top rated doctor

17:03

today who takes your insurance is in

17:05

your area. That's ZOC We

17:18

get support from Masterclass. I should

17:20

probably remind everybody here that Mother's

17:22

Day is coming up and right

17:24

after Mother's Day, what is it?

17:26

Father's Day, who are hard people

17:28

to shop for, your parents, and

17:30

my kids can't get me Masterclass

17:32

because I already have it. But

17:34

if you have parents, loved ones,

17:37

yourself, people in your

17:39

life who are very curious

17:41

people, people who love to learn,

17:43

people who are always looking

17:45

to acquire new skills, Masterclass

17:47

is a great gift. You can

17:49

get into painting. You can learn how

17:51

to write a novel. You can

17:53

learn how to make a perfect croissant,

17:55

which is not something I will

17:57

ever be able to do because I

18:00

don't know that the perfect gluten -free

18:02

croissant is something that can be made by

18:04

me, a woman who struggles

18:06

to turn on her own oven. Masterclass

18:09

is the only streaming platform where you

18:11

can learn and grow with over 200

18:13

of the world's best. There is a

18:15

class from Michael Lewis, one of my

18:17

very favorite writers on story. That is

18:19

the class that I am taking next,

18:21

because I love that man. If I

18:24

could write even 10 % as well

18:26

as he can, I would be a

18:28

pretty happy person. For just 10

18:30

bucks a month, annually, a

18:32

membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access

18:34

to every single instructor, which is

18:36

an amazing deal. And you can access

18:38

this on your phone, your computer,

18:40

a smart TV, or even just an

18:42

audio mode. I am an audio

18:45

learner. Audio is a big deal for

18:47

me. 88 % of members feel that

18:49

Masterclass has made a positive impact

18:51

on their lives, and it is a

18:53

gift that you don't have to

18:55

wrap, which is the best kind of

18:57

gift, in my opinion. Plus, every

18:59

new membership comes with a 30 -day

19:01

money -back guarantee, so I think that's

19:04

a pretty safe gift to give. Our

19:06

listeners always get a great discount

19:08

on Masterclass. You can get their latest

19:10

deal, which is at least 15 %

19:12

off at masterclass.com slash ttfa. That's

19:14

masterclass.com slash ttfa. We

19:21

get support from Skims, and I

19:23

am personally being supported by Skims

19:25

right now. If you have ever

19:27

tried a push -up bra and

19:30

thought, I don't know, this

19:32

one's just not for me, you

19:34

have to try the Skims Ultimate

19:36

Push -Up Bra. I am a member

19:38

of the Tiny Boob Club, TBC,

19:41

when I wear the Skims

19:43

Ultimate Push -Up Bra. It looks

19:45

like I got the world's

19:47

best boob job. I am

19:49

telling you, suddenly I have

19:51

cleavage, nice, perfect. My clothes

19:53

are all filled out. If

19:55

you see me looking like

19:57

I have boobs, it's because

19:59

I am wearing this bra.

20:02

I'm also a huge fan of the

20:05

Skims Triangle Bra Let. The Skims

20:07

Ultimate Strapless Push -Up Bra. Strapless bras

20:09

are a tough one for me, but

20:11

this one is my go -to. It

20:13

is actually the only one that

20:15

I have right now because I was

20:18

like, I'm throwing them all out.

20:20

I'm throwing them all out. I'm starting

20:22

from zero. I'm starting with the

20:24

Ultimate Strapless Push -Up Bra from Skims.

20:26

These are truly the best. Like

20:28

you feel lifted, but your boobs aren't

20:30

like flattened out. I don't get quad boob,

20:33

which is a thing that happens with

20:35

strapless bras often. If you know, you know.

20:38

If you have not tried out Skims,

20:40

you and your boobs are missing

20:42

out. So go check out the Skims

20:44

Ultimate Bra Collection and more at

20:46

skims.com or at a Skims store. If

20:48

you want to support our show,

20:50

you can place your order at skims.com

20:52

and then select podcast in the

20:55

survey and then select things for asking

20:57

so they know that we sent

20:59

you. Again, go to

21:01

skims.com, check out their bras, especially

21:03

their pushup bras, and you're

21:05

welcome. Last

21:15

year, for the first

21:17

time, and a little

21:19

bit into this year,

21:21

I finally started and

21:23

completed The Artist's Way.

21:27

Yes! And I've seen a lot of memes

21:29

that are like, the true Artist's Way

21:31

is never finishing The Artist's Way. And it

21:33

took me, I would say I bought

21:35

and donated that book. approximately seven to 10

21:37

times. Like I would see it at

21:40

the thrift store, buy it, be like, today

21:42

I'm going to do it, start the

21:44

morning pages and then abandon it. When

21:48

did you discover the

21:50

artist's way and what did

21:52

it do for you? Oh,

21:56

I discovered it in

21:58

grad school. I was walking

22:00

in a bookstore with my friend Claire

22:02

and she pointed it out and said, like,

22:04

oh, my parents. did that and

22:07

really liked it. And

22:09

I latched onto it

22:11

like an oasis

22:13

in the desert. I

22:15

was obsessed. So

22:18

I became an evangelist too.

22:20

I was really annoying giving copies

22:22

to my friends. The

22:24

morning pages were really, really

22:27

big for me. I never

22:29

really connected with the artist

22:31

states that much. Yeah,

22:35

it became a place to show up

22:37

without trying to get anywhere. That

22:39

was what the morning pages did for

22:41

me. Yeah, yeah. And to me, that was

22:43

the hardest part. And that's

22:46

why I always abandoned it, was I was

22:48

just thinking, I need to do a

22:50

good job at morning pages. I

22:53

better be discovering something every

22:55

morning. And it's like, the

22:57

point is to literally just

23:00

write. You could write

23:02

anything. And that's how

23:04

deep, deeply ingrained, like the

23:06

good job, like do everything

23:08

right, do everything perfectly was ingrained

23:10

in me that I couldn't even free

23:12

write through pages without feeling like

23:15

I was doing it wrong. That's

23:18

real. And I still struggle with that. And

23:20

I still do morning pages, but they're kind

23:22

of not quite morning pages. And I still

23:24

find myself trying to make them problem

23:27

-solving exercise, and then I stopped for a

23:29

while, and then I come back to

23:31

it. That's the thing,

23:34

we're always trying to

23:36

fix something. Yeah, yeah,

23:38

always trying to keep, always trying

23:40

to fix something, always trying

23:42

to accomplish something. And

23:44

I loved your writing about

23:46

dread, dread and doing.

23:48

Will you talk to us

23:50

about that? Right,

23:53

so. There's a little

23:55

chapter in the first section

23:57

about how dread functions

24:00

in the land of productivity,

24:02

which is sort of

24:04

what I call our culture.

24:07

And dread, in the way

24:09

that I describe it, is

24:11

a different feeling than fear

24:13

or panic. It's a specific

24:16

thing. It's actually a specific

24:18

way of trying to control

24:20

against. the instability

24:22

of the world and it keeps

24:24

us feeling very busy. So it's

24:26

like we see it in the

24:28

doomsday prepper world, which is a

24:30

very profitable industry that keeps you

24:33

feeling like if you just can

24:35

protect yourself enough, if you can

24:37

think ahead enough to everything that

24:39

could go wrong and then prepare

24:41

against it, then you will be

24:43

okay. But then you just keep

24:46

searching out new problems and it

24:48

becomes this loop. What

24:50

is your dread

24:52

into doing trigger, personally?

24:55

Health. So

24:57

looking at something that

25:00

my aging body or

25:02

the aging body of

25:04

the health of my

25:06

family, and then I

25:08

immediately go into, oh,

25:11

I need to do everything

25:13

I can to not get

25:15

some... Not to feel worse.

25:17

So yeah, like these me

25:19

like buying supplements like trying

25:21

to think of a new

25:23

a new plan that that

25:25

kind of anticipation which Like

25:27

it actually indicates that like

25:29

I don't trust a future

25:31

version of myself Like I

25:33

knew yeah, somehow do it

25:35

now. Yeah. Yeah, it's um,

25:37

I I do that too

25:39

I have like all these

25:41

little I had a friend

25:43

of mine design these little

25:46

Phrases that I had originally written

25:48

on post -it notes, but the

25:50

post -its were falling all over

25:52

and one says like let

25:54

future you figure it out because

25:56

Like give her something give

25:58

her something to do like that's

26:00

okay. Like why are you

26:02

why exactly? Why aren't you trusting

26:04

that version of yourself? Like

26:06

why are you assuming her helplessness

26:08

and probably because I we

26:10

have that sense of like helplessness

26:13

around our present selves in some

26:15

ways. There's

26:17

kind of an obvious question that

26:20

I'm sure you have been and will

26:22

be asked 6 ,000 times. So let

26:24

me just be one of the

26:26

million people to ask you it. How

26:29

do you produce this the

26:31

entire point the book by the

26:33

way guys? How

26:36

do you produce work

26:38

that you are proud of?

26:43

without getting stuck in

26:45

the productivity trap. Let

26:49

me think about that. Personally,

26:51

like on a personal level.

26:54

But also, it's like, guys, that is the

26:56

point of the book. That's in the book. Yeah.

27:03

OK, this is going to

27:05

sound strange. Yeah,

27:08

it can sound a little

27:10

out there. One

27:12

of the distinctions that was revelatory

27:14

for me was the distinction

27:16

of feeling like I'm producing something,

27:18

meaning like it's coming from

27:20

some blank space inside me and

27:22

I'm like wrenching it out

27:25

and forming it and it's just

27:27

me by myself. And I'm

27:29

like, I'm the engine. I'm the

27:31

little engine that could pushing

27:33

like a mixing metaphors, but like

27:35

I'm pushing myself up this

27:37

hill. Like that, that's the feeling

27:39

of producing something. that

27:41

I'm quote unquote proud of. The

27:44

other alternative is feeling like

27:46

I am participating in something coming

27:48

into being. So I am

27:50

actually not the only thing that

27:52

is making this thing happen.

27:54

I am like, I'm getting ideas

27:57

from like the ether. I'm

27:59

just making myself available for this

28:01

thing. And I did not

28:03

stay in that second mindset the

28:05

whole time. at all in

28:07

fact there were moments in writing

28:09

the book where I was

28:11

like I fully was like forcing

28:13

it so hard that I

28:15

had to stop and needed help

28:17

because I'd never written something

28:19

of this size before like I

28:21

just my capacity for a

28:23

project of like this length needed

28:25

to grow so that was

28:27

really really hard but at my

28:29

best I was able to

28:31

feel like okay like I am

28:34

I don't need to force

28:36

this thing is going to

28:38

come through me and I'm

28:40

just participating. And I

28:42

found that if I tuned my

28:45

dial that way, that would make

28:47

it easier. And then my sense

28:49

of pride in it felt a

28:51

little bit more humble in a

28:53

sense, because I know that I

28:55

didn't scrape this all together. It's

28:57

like I just kind of helped

29:00

facilitate it. Yeah, I'm going to

29:02

come back to the artist's way.

29:04

I want everybody to know that

29:06

I did not take my Adderall

29:08

today, also did not have a

29:10

cup of coffee. Today has been

29:13

a chaotic day and in years

29:15

or months past, I would truly

29:17

admonish myself and be like, and

29:19

you did a bad job and

29:21

you didn't get it. But

29:24

instead, we're going to take this chaos

29:26

train. We're going to pull back into the

29:28

station called the artist's way because i

29:31

actually do think that

29:33

this book is a

29:35

great companion piece to

29:37

the artist's way i

29:39

think that this book

29:41

is written to be

29:43

incredibly helpful to anybody

29:45

whether or not you're

29:47

in a creative profession

29:49

or even just you

29:51

know even if you

29:53

would not consider yourself

29:55

like a creative this

29:57

book is written in

29:59

such. beautifully sized pieces

30:01

and ideas that it

30:03

can be a bomb

30:05

to anybody who feels

30:07

burned out or stuck

30:09

or overwhelmed. What

30:12

were the practices

30:14

that kept you. Grounded

30:18

kept you calm because

30:20

writing a book right

30:22

is like you said

30:24

a huge project. the

30:27

world everybody's job is filled with

30:29

huge overwhelming projects no matter what your

30:31

career is there's something big that

30:33

is always like looming ahead of you

30:35

something that you do have to

30:37

like sit down and produce and there's

30:40

all these external factors that you

30:42

kind of have to guard yourself. Against

30:45

in a way to keep

30:47

yourself from totally losing your

30:49

mind. Yeah

30:51

yeah. I.

30:54

tricked myself into writing this

30:56

book. I told myself

30:58

that I wasn't really writing

31:00

a book, that I was

31:02

kind of just doing a

31:04

prank. So

31:07

I saw this ad. This ad

31:09

was served to me on Instagram,

31:11

and it was like, write your

31:13

short nonfiction book. And the ad

31:15

was so cheesy that I was

31:17

like, psh, that guy can do

31:19

it. I can do it. That

31:21

seems like. I

31:24

could not think of it as literature.

31:27

Like I could not think of it as, right?

31:30

Like it couldn't be a capital B

31:32

book for me. Like it was like, no,

31:34

this is like, it was like a

31:36

little dare. And so what that

31:38

looks like in print. I have, I've

31:40

literally told my kids and my friends, I'm

31:42

like, stupid people do stuff all day,

31:44

every day. And they don't think twice. They

31:46

don't question themselves. Pretend you're stupid. Yeah.

31:50

You're stupid. It

31:53

doesn't have to be that serious. That's

31:56

such a huge block. Especially the

31:59

more and the more you care about

32:01

something, the more you often hesitate

32:03

around it because it becomes really precious.

32:05

And it becomes this thing that really special

32:07

people do. It's a

32:10

special world. And that keeps

32:12

you at a distance from

32:14

it. And it keeps you

32:16

also kind of on your

32:18

best behavior if you're. Yeah.

32:22

And then like what are you really

32:24

most yourself? Are you really bringing

32:26

forth what's most alive when you're like

32:28

on your best behavior? Probably not. So

32:31

literally by practice was to write

32:33

500 words by hand in my

32:36

little corner of the coffee shop

32:38

and not tell of a day

32:40

and just like not tell anyone

32:42

what I was doing. It's

32:44

like a little joke. Yeah. That's

32:46

how most of it got written. 500

32:48

words by hand in a coffee

32:50

shop, nice and casual, like

32:52

it doesn't have to be that

32:55

serious. I really like that approach.

32:57

I really like that approach because

32:59

I feel like I've spent most

33:01

of my adult career and I've

33:03

had many, many careers in my

33:05

adult life. I spent most

33:07

of it kind of in a

33:09

panic. looking for

33:11

a template or a

33:13

map or something. And

33:16

just basically saying like, you tell me

33:18

how to do it and I will

33:20

do it that way. And that has

33:22

been my worst work in every industry

33:24

is being like, same. Same.

33:29

Cause you're not really showing up when

33:31

that's happening. Like you're kind of, you're

33:33

showing up as this, I don't know,

33:35

like version of you that. you think

33:38

you should be, and you're bright, I

33:40

don't know, I feel like my brain

33:42

isn't ever fully online when I'm right,

33:44

like imitating what I think so I

33:46

should be doing. Yeah, when you

33:48

are like constantly glancing over at how

33:50

other people do it, and you've spoken

33:52

before, and I hate to be a

33:55

person who's quoting like, you know, your

33:57

Instagram stories, but here we are. You've

33:59

spoken before about comparison,

34:02

and that is a, it's

34:05

an irresistible. Part

34:07

of modern life like it's

34:09

irresistible in the force that we

34:11

in the It's irresistible in

34:14

the sense that we literally can't

34:16

resist it because we are

34:18

constantly fed snippets visions of other

34:20

people's success and It's irresistible

34:22

to me in the sense that

34:24

it's like pushing a bruise

34:26

You know yes to go look

34:28

at somebody else's work or

34:31

life and be like oh, but

34:33

you didn't do that you

34:35

little loser Yep.

34:38

That is very real. What

34:41

did I say about comparison? Because

34:44

I genuinely don't remember anything. Like that

34:46

it rhymes. You were talking about

34:48

you're walking through the woods, I believe.

34:51

You were walking. Your

34:53

lipstick looked great. And

34:55

you were talking about

34:57

comparison basically like sapping

34:59

your creativity. And

35:01

I just felt that so

35:04

deeply because... been a huge

35:06

part of my journey. And

35:08

also I have seen

35:10

other people feel that about

35:12

me, you know, and even

35:14

like kind of express it

35:16

to me. And I'm like,

35:19

babe, I don't know what to tell you,

35:21

like nothing is as good as it

35:23

looks, nothing. I can be very grateful for

35:26

this life and also like, you

35:28

know, enjoy

35:30

yours, like enjoy, enjoy

35:32

what you have. And like

35:34

there's nothing like seeing

35:37

somebody else's comparison to sort

35:39

of free you from

35:41

yours in my experience. I

35:45

love that you bring up

35:47

both those experiences because that is

35:49

so true. I've been thinking

35:51

a lot about how I have

35:53

the function of comparison for

35:55

me has actually been to like

35:57

fill in. what would otherwise

35:59

just be empty space in my

36:02

life or my head that

36:04

I am feeling uncomfortable in? Like,

36:06

I'm a week and a half

36:08

out from this book being released.

36:10

It's a weird nebulous period. I,

36:14

so I'm brain -brain -brain. I'm watching you right now.

36:17

I'm just sending you all the, it's the worst. And

36:22

it's the unknowing that

36:24

is so uncomfortable. So

36:26

I'm actually like noticing

36:28

my brain wanting to use comparison to just

36:30

fill in that space. Like,

36:32

oh, instead of just being

36:34

like, I actually have no total

36:36

control over the book that's

36:39

already written. I have

36:41

limited control over, you know,

36:43

what I do to share

36:45

it. And so that's so

36:47

intolerable that I'm gonna fill

36:49

in stories about other people.

36:51

But it's just like, I

36:53

could just leave this space

36:55

there. Yeah, and not not

36:58

fill it. Yeah, but your

37:00

your point in that like

37:02

other like experiencing other people

37:04

making up things about you

37:06

You you realize when people

37:09

do that like oh they

37:11

have filled in an entire

37:13

world about me that does

37:15

not exist because it Does

37:17

something for them like and

37:19

that that makes sense, but

37:22

like it's just not it's

37:24

just fantasy. It's fantasy. It's

37:26

not reality.

37:54

I'm such a fan of

37:56

Foria that I actually reached

37:58

out to them to ask

38:00

them to be an advertiser.

38:03

And if you are looking

38:05

to increase your intimacy, your

38:07

arousal, your sensuality to

38:09

connect with your partner, and

38:11

also with yourself, you

38:14

need to try Foria. The

38:16

awaken arousal oil is,

38:19

I mean, it's gonna. blow your

38:21

mind. Imagine

38:24

the best orgasm you've

38:26

ever had and then imagine

38:28

that it's 10 times

38:30

better. That's a number

38:32

I just made up. I can't

38:34

quantify what this feels like,

38:36

but the arousal oil helps get

38:38

you going and will give

38:40

you deeper orgasms. You will feel

38:42

amazing whether you're with a

38:44

partner or you are on your

38:46

own. They also sell this

38:48

pleasure set that has the arousal oil, the

38:51

sex oil, the intimacy

38:53

melts. The pleasure set is

38:55

like a magic combination for just

38:57

a mind blowing sexual experience. So

38:59

for you is here to help

39:01

you have really good sex and

39:03

more of it. The kind that

39:05

makes you feel nourished, juicy, more

39:08

alive. They make life changing,

39:10

all natural organic formulas for your

39:12

most intimate needs. So I

39:14

would love. So I think you

39:16

should try this if you

39:18

haven't. I think you should go

39:20

ahead and treat yourself, maybe

39:22

even your partner, experience your deepest

39:25

sensual experience and try Foria.

39:27

Foria has a little deal for

39:29

you. Also, you can get

39:31

20 % off your first order

39:33

by visiting foriawellness.com slash thanks, or

39:35

use code THANKS at checkout.

39:37

That's F -O -R -I -A, wellness.com, forward

39:39

slash thanks, and you'll get

39:41

20 % off your first order. Try

39:44

the awaken, try the pleasure set,

39:46

Thank me later. that's

40:15

feelings and co. There's a link to it

40:17

in our show description. So see

40:19

you over on YouTube if that's what you're

40:21

into. What

40:23

a sales gal I am. Okay,

40:26

I had the most brilliant question,

40:28

then it literally evaporated from my mind

40:30

and I watched it float away

40:32

and I was like, who did you

40:34

write this book for? Like, who

40:36

do you help picks up this book?

40:42

Yeah, I I definitely wrote

40:44

it for people who are

40:46

suspicious of yet another plan

40:49

and another self -help book, but

40:51

who also are really long

40:53

for a life that is

40:55

really intentional and full of

40:57

the meaning that they want

40:59

to express. So they don't

41:01

want to say like, I

41:04

don't want anything. I'm

41:06

just going to like

41:08

sit here and tell

41:10

myself that I

41:13

have no desires. I

41:16

believe that we're restless creatures

41:18

because we want to

41:20

make meaning. We have beautiful,

41:22

creative creatures. We don't

41:24

want to just sit there. But

41:26

the alternative we're given is, OK, use

41:29

all that energy to

41:31

fix what's wrong with you

41:33

and basically use it

41:35

to make capitalism function and

41:38

blah, blah, blah, blah.

41:40

And so I have in

41:42

mind someone who is

41:44

a version of me who

41:46

does not want another

41:48

five -step plan or another

41:50

acronym, but deeply wants

41:53

to experience themselves as a

41:55

whole creative human who wants

41:57

to engage deeply in the

41:59

world. I think we're meaning -making

42:01

creatures. We want to be

42:04

in our life in a

42:06

really alive way, but not

42:08

in an optimized, idealized self

42:10

way. the optimizing. It's like

42:12

we got to stop demise.

42:16

And that's

42:18

when that

42:21

catches on. I

42:25

am so wary of

42:27

anything that's about optimization, efficiency,

42:32

anything that promises me more. I've

42:34

declared this year the year of

42:37

less. I am going to. do

42:40

less. I'm going to say no

42:43

more. I am going to have

42:45

more white space in my days

42:47

and not try to fill it.

42:50

And I'm going to tell

42:52

you a story and then

42:54

I want to know if

42:56

you have an experience like

42:58

this when you pull back

43:00

from the productivity trap. My

43:04

inclination, it

43:06

is so hard not to let it's almost like

43:08

when you Oh

43:11

God, I'm trying to think of like a, there's

43:13

no metaphors in the world at

43:15

this point. They've all deleted, but you

43:17

know, like when you're like at

43:20

the beach and you like dig out

43:22

a little space in the sand

43:24

and then the water laps back up

43:26

and all of a sudden it's

43:28

filled in and you dig it again.

43:30

And that to me is like

43:32

when I pull something away, when I

43:34

carve out space, it is hard

43:36

for the oceans of my... productivity monster,

43:38

not to just loop, fill it

43:40

in. I started playing

43:43

video games a few years ago. I

43:45

got myself a Nintendo Switch. I

43:47

do not share it with the kids.

43:49

They have one. I've got one. And

43:52

the games that I gravitated

43:54

towards, um,

43:57

Stardew Valley, it's a beautiful like story

43:59

game. You can kind of like choose

44:01

your own adventure the way that I

44:03

just set up a farm and got

44:05

to work. I was like,

44:07

I gotta milk these cows. I

44:10

gotta get more cows. I gotta make

44:12

more money. What? Okay,

44:15

step away from that game. I get a

44:17

game called Lemon Cake, where

44:19

you arrive at this decrepit old

44:21

bakery and it is your job

44:23

to renovate the bakery. But to

44:25

do that, you have to make

44:27

baked goods and sell them. And

44:29

I realized four days into playing

44:32

this game. This game is simply

44:34

capitalism. And all I am doing

44:36

is selling more pastries to fix

44:38

more ovens so I can bake

44:40

more pastries and make more money

44:42

to fix more ovens and grow

44:45

more ingredients so I can sell

44:47

more pastries. And in my free

44:49

time, my relaxing

44:51

time, I was stressing

44:53

out about being productive in

44:55

a video game. That's

44:58

what that is. I was

45:00

the opposite of relaxing. I filled.

45:02

in my unproductive time trying

45:04

desperately to be productive in a

45:07

video game. It's

45:11

amazing. It's amazing. It's

45:15

amazing. We

45:17

are like, yeah, that that

45:19

adrenaline is addictive. Yes. Yeah.

45:22

No, that is that's so

45:24

real. I get that. feeling when

45:26

I'm supposed to be just

45:28

hanging out on the weekend with

45:30

my family. You're not even

45:32

supposed to be working. And I'm

45:34

like, okay, what can I

45:36

be doing while we're watching a

45:39

family movie? And can I

45:41

be just sitting there, can feel

45:43

deeply intolerable? And

45:45

it becomes, I think,

45:47

from this partial identity issue

45:49

that we're given this

45:51

identity that that we are

45:53

what we do. And

45:55

so if we're not doing

45:58

anything, then we don't

46:00

count. We're literally nothing.

46:02

There's something we have to

46:04

constantly fill some imaginary gap

46:06

that's been created by someone

46:08

who isn't us. And

46:10

so I want to wrap this up by

46:12

talking a little bit about legacy. It's

46:15

where you end the

46:17

book, and it is

46:19

a really beautiful thought,

46:21

is a beautiful place.

46:24

And I get there sometimes and then I'm

46:26

like, maybe for other people. But

46:29

make it so hard

46:31

to, it's so hard. And

46:33

we see so many

46:35

memes about this, right? Like

46:37

where people are saying, oh,

46:40

these are the common thoughts of the

46:42

dying, right? They're not, they're not worried about

46:44

work or what they did. They want

46:46

to know that, you know, they, they mattered

46:48

personally that they did this. I. was

46:52

raised by people who were believed

46:54

deeply in laziness. God bless them. Mom,

46:56

if you're listening to this, I'm

46:58

not mad at you. Okay, babe, I'm

47:00

not mad at you. You did

47:02

a great job. Dad,

47:04

wherever you are, relax,

47:06

it's okay. One

47:09

of my core memories

47:12

as a child is

47:14

my obviously ADHD anxious

47:16

grandfather never sitting down.

47:20

Not once when I went up to the

47:22

cabin with him my cousins and I

47:24

were commiserating about this recently He would give

47:26

us a wheelbarrow three little girls and

47:28

say move this pile of bricks And

47:32

I'll take you for ice cream. We'd

47:34

get done the big I never said

47:36

when I'd take you to ice cream

47:38

I gotta move this pile of logs

47:40

from here to here just wheelbarrowing Constantly

47:43

the entire time we're up at the

47:45

cabin. We're moving bricks. We're moving logs

47:47

We're doing something. He's buzzing around my

47:49

mom has never sat down in her

47:51

life You know like just it's just

47:53

constant and I have that too I

47:55

have that too in the way that

47:57

it affects Other people and not just

47:59

my kids because not everyone's a mom

48:01

And you don't have to be, by

48:04

the way. It's not for everybody. And

48:06

that with the utmost respect,

48:08

but it infects everybody. It

48:11

is a weird, unsettling

48:13

energy to project into

48:15

the world. And is that

48:17

really how we want

48:19

to be remembered as people

48:21

who got a lot

48:23

done? Right,

48:25

right. Right.

48:28

I think we can feel when

48:30

people are doing something and

48:33

when we're doing something from a

48:35

sense of trying to feel

48:37

like we're okay versus when we're

48:39

doing something from a place

48:41

of knowing we're already okay. And

48:45

if we're around someone, it

48:48

reminds me of when you

48:50

make a friend with someone

48:52

and they're always apologizing for

48:54

themselves. And you're like, Oh,

48:56

you're making me feel like I

48:58

need to apologize for myself because you're

49:00

apologizing for yourself. You're

49:03

actually telegraphing that not just that you're

49:06

not okay, but that you're telling me that

49:08

I'm also not okay. So

49:10

when I think about

49:12

what we leave for other

49:14

people, I'm

49:16

trying to speak

49:18

against this idea

49:20

that we need

49:22

to know exactly

49:24

how we're contributing. I

49:27

mean, to know the value of

49:29

our actions. Like, okay, but like,

49:31

what are people going to talk

49:33

about when you die? And

49:35

I get how that can be

49:37

a helpful orienting question for some

49:39

people. And it's not wrong. But

49:41

there's something much more mysterious in the

49:43

way that we contribute to each other.

49:46

And it has so much to do with

49:48

the things we don't calculate. It's just

49:50

so much to do with just the

49:52

quality of our presence. we

49:55

love our friends and we

49:57

are impacted by our friends,

49:59

not because they picked us

50:01

up from the airport, or

50:03

because they brought the great

50:05

snacks, unless they love making

50:07

snacks, then we love that

50:10

they love it. But it's

50:12

the quality of their presence.

50:14

And so I think counting

50:16

our impact, counting our legacy,

50:18

sort of counting in advance,

50:20

okay, but what will come

50:22

from this effort that I

50:24

want to... is going to

50:26

distract us. So the way

50:28

that we're connected with each

50:31

other is a lot more

50:33

mysterious, but also a lot

50:35

more fruitful. This

50:37

conversation is going to impact

50:39

me and stay with

50:41

me because of how you

50:44

are being, not because

50:46

you asked the perfect question

50:48

or had the story.

50:50

Which did I ask the

50:52

perfect question? Yeah, we're

50:55

back to totally, totally. But

50:57

is this the best podcast you've

50:59

ever been on? Totally.

51:10

Thanks so much for joining us

51:12

here today. That was Maria

51:14

Bowler, her book Making Time, a

51:16

new vision for crafting a life

51:19

beyond productivity is available now wherever you

51:21

get your books. We will also

51:23

have links in our show description to

51:25

this conversation. You can

51:27

find all of my work,

51:29

all of my new writing,

51:31

full episodes of this podcast,

51:33

our full back catalog of

51:35

terrible things for asking, and

51:37

new episodes of Thanks for

51:39

asking. Over on our

51:41

subject, we'll link that in

51:43

the show notes and episode

51:45

description as well. We

51:48

are a call -in show. We

51:50

love to hear from you. You

51:52

can always call and leave a

51:54

voicemail. You can send an email

51:56

if you'd rather communicate that way.

51:58

The phone number is 612 -568 -4441.

52:00

The email is thanks at feelings

52:03

and and there's a link

52:05

to our booking page if you want

52:07

to have a live call. That's also

52:09

in, you guessed it, the show description. This

52:12

is an independent podcast by Feelings

52:14

& Co. Our team here is me,

52:16

Marcel Malikibu, and the guys at

52:18

Extra Sauce who do our video production.

52:21

This episode is made possible by our

52:23

supporting producers. These are listeners who

52:25

support us at the highest level. Over

52:27

on Substack, there's really just, you

52:29

know, there's monthly. There's annual and then

52:31

there's, you know, super annual, which

52:33

is being a supporting producer. And one

52:35

of the perks is you get

52:37

your name in the credits. So I

52:39

would love to thank our supporting

52:41

producers. Beth Derry, Sarah

52:44

Garifo, Jennifer McDagle, Sarah

52:46

David, Mary Beth Berry,

52:48

Joy Pollock, Crystal, Kali

52:50

Sakai, Vile Basi, Lizzie

52:52

DeVries, Amy Gabrielle,

52:54

Katie, Rachel Walton, David

52:57

Binkley, Lisa Piven, Celia

52:59

Doucet, Michelle Thoms, Val, Nicole

53:02

Petey, Renee Kepke,

53:04

Melody Swinford, Jennifer Pavelka,

53:06

Diane C, Kate

53:08

Lyon, Stacy Wilson, Larry

53:10

Lefferts, Carr Pan, Jothia

53:13

Disopolis, Caroline Moss,

53:15

Elise Lunan, Andrew Brzezinski,

53:17

Amanda, Stacy DeMauro,

53:19

Jess Blackwell, Abby

53:21

Arrose, Crystal Mann,

53:24

Bonnie Robinson, Lauren Hannah,

53:26

Shannon Dominguez -Stevens, Kathy

53:28

Hamm, Aaron John, Penny

53:30

Pesta, Inga, Madeline

53:32

McGrane, Christina, Emily

53:34

Ferriso, Elizabeth Berkeley,

53:37

Chiara, Monica, Kaylee,

53:40

Faye Barronz, Jessica

53:42

Reed, Kate Beyer -Jean,

53:44

Courtney McCown, Jeremy

53:46

Essen, Kim Aff, Lindsay

53:48

Lund, Jessica LaTexler,

53:50

Alexis Lane, Stephanie Johnson,

53:52

Robin Roulard, Jackie

53:54

Ryder, Jill McDonnell, Beth

53:56

Lipham, Elia Feliz -Million,

53:59

Dave Gilmore, Laura Savoy,

54:02

Chelsea Cyrnick, Jen Grimlin,

54:05

Micah and H. Thank you so much.

54:07

If you would like to join

54:09

the ranks of our supporting producers, go

54:11

over to Substack. And

54:13

I will see you guys again

54:15

soon. Oh, our theme music.

54:17

I keep forgetting this, our closing theme

54:19

music. Our opening theme music is by Joffrey

54:21

Lamar Wilson, But our closing theme music

54:23

is from my son, Q. So I hope

54:25

you love it. It cost me $100. Hi

54:37

guys, it's Nora. If you

54:39

like what we've done here on

54:41

Terrible Things for Asking, you

54:43

might want to check out our

54:45

YouTube channel. We have two

54:47

new videos going up every week

54:49

Over at youtube.com slash feelings.

54:52

A, N, D, co.

54:54

That's feelings and co. There's a link

54:56

to it in our show description. So

54:58

see you over on YouTube if that's what

55:00

you're into. What

55:03

a sales gal I am.